Lesser Evils: Azmodan(Lord of Sin) & Belial(Lord of Lies) der=

[Aranock]

After a previous post i made, i decided to do some reserach to find out about that old tomb in diablo 1 i remembered about the lesser evils. Here is info; perhaps a strong allusion to Diablo 3. From what i gather from blizzard via diabloii.net's d3 wiki page with the official quotes and such, i would put my money that it is indeed going to be a battle of heaven vs hell in one form or another; whether it's a story before or after the worldstone, or perhaps the banishing of the 3 prime evils, i'm guessing the names below will be key players. Enjoy

Diablo II: Lord of Destruction's story-line introduces a new mythical object into the Diablo Universe, the Worldstone, which is an ancient crystal that prevents the Heavens and the Hells from completely enveloping the mortal realm. Baal is seeking it inside Mount Arreat. However, true to the games preceding it, Baal is defeated. The Worldstone is destroyed by the archangel Tyrael due to Baal's corruption of it.
According to the manual for Diablo, there were seven Great Evils - the three Prime Evils (Mephisto, Diablo and Baal) and the four Lesser Evils. While the Prime Evils controlled Hell as a sovereign triumvirate, the Lesser Evils were powerful in their own right, serving as Lieutenants to the Prime evils, but often jealous of them.
1. Azmodan, Lord of Sin, and Belial, Lord of Lies: Azmodan joined with his brother Belial during the Sin War to overthrow the Prime Evils, who they believed were unwilling to continue the war with Heaven. Rallying Hell's legions behind them, Azmodan and Belial overthrew Diablo, Mephisto and Baal and banished them to the mortal realm, believing that if the angels were focused on battling the Prime Evils in the mortal realm, the Gates of Heaven would be wide open. Once the Prime Evils were gone, Azmodan and Belial argued over who had the greater authority, and thus their alliance fragmented and a civil war broke out in Hell. Azmodan's and Belial's fates are unknown. In the first Diablo novel, Legacy Of Blood, Belial is referred to as the Lord of Hell, though this may just be exaggeration on the part of the speaker, a demon named Xazax.

Since the release of the 1.11 patch, only Azmodan and Belial have yet to appear in-game.

EDIT: Went back to the tomb. Here's the direct quote. Tomb reads, "The Dark Exile"
"So it came to be that there was a great revolution within the burning hells known as the dark exile. The lesser evils overthrew the three prime evils and banished their spirit forms to the mortal realm. The demons Belial (the lord of lies, and Azmodan (The lord of sin) faught to claim rulership of hell during the absence of the three brothers. All of hell polarized between the factions of Belial and Azmodan, while the forces of the high heavens continually battered upon the very gates of hell"

Here's links to the actual in game Tombs. I believe it's all evidence. Nevertheless, guys voice is superb!
The Realms Beyond: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d5Z1rowA0k
Tale of the Three: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syIYMWa1vdc&feature=related
The Dark Exile: Script is above. I'll see if i can get a video up for it.


Here's some refresher info as well:

2. Andariel, Maiden of Anguish: Once allied with Azmodan and Belial when they overthrew the Prime Evils, Andariel re-aligned herself with Diablo upon his resurrection in the mortal realm. Upon entering the world of Sanctuary, Andariel took over the Monastery of the Sightless Eye, the stronghold of the Rogues, and forced High Priestess Akara and her surviving warriors to flee to a ramshackle camp. Andariel's motives were clear when the Dark Wanderer (Diablo) was discovered - Andariel was attempting to block the pass into Aranoch in order to prevent adventurers from stopping the Wanderer/Diablo from reaching the Tomb of Tal Rasha. At the behest of the Sisterhood, an adventurer battled through demons and undead into the Monastery, and defeated Andariel - thus opening the pass to the desert port of Lut Gholein. In later sources, Andariel was said to be the strongest daughter of Lilith (see below), which might make her Mephisto's granddaughter.
3. Duriel, Lord of Pain: Once allied with Azmodan and Belial when they overthrew the Prime Evils, Duriel aided Diablo in finding the Tomb of Tal Rasha in the deserts of Aranoch, where Baal was imprisoned. Once Diablo freed Tal Rasha/Baal, Duriel was left in the tomb to confront the adventurer searching for it, as a punishment for his previous infraction. Duriel was defeated by the adventurer.

In the new Diablo novel, The Sin War, it is revealed that Mephisto had two children: a son, Lucion, and a daughter, Lilith.
Lilith is introduced in the 1.11 patch. She appears in a quest called the Pandemonium event requiring the hero to collect three keys and transmuting them in the Horadric Cube to form a portal to her realm. She is described as the Queen of Succubi and the Matriarch of Demons.
The addition of Lilith has caused some controversy, as she was never mentioned in previous texts (which had only seven Great Evils and named all of them). Many players do not consider her canon. However, Lilith (almost certainly the same character) is a major character of the Sin War trilogy, where she is revealed to be the daughter of Mephisto and sister of Lucion. It is possible that offspring of the Great Evils are not considered to be Great Evils themselves. This presents another problem, as Lilith is described as Andariel's mother.

[mince pies]

If the three Prime Evils were overthrown by two Lesser Evils then frankly I don't think Diablo, Baal and Mephi deserve the title of "Prime Evil"

[Aranock]

Here's the Link to the Dark Exile. Only have the trial of fraps, but i recorded most of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aY41BdGnbE

[aishilee]

So diablo wanted to return to hell and gain control of it ?
so baal wanted to courrupt the worldstone so the gates of Hell can open to the mortall planes?



so mephisto wanted to stay in durance of hate for us to mf ?

[ohnoyellowdinosaur]

So diablo wanted to return to hell and gain control of it ?
so baal wanted to courrupt the worldstone so the gates of Hell can open to the mortall planes?



so mephisto wanted to stay in durance of hate for us to mf ?
actually, he stayed behind to fight the player to stop him from continuing forward.

and he succeded; i mean... you have to stay in a3 all your mfing life, right? D:

[aishilee]

haaha. Ok so Mephisto is the guardian of the portal to the relam of hell.

So as the story goes.. after diablo release his brother baal from act 2, they went to find meph. And at the durance of hate, they did a ritual to open up the hell portal. From there Baal went North. Diablo went to hell. Meph continue to courrupt kurast.

in the end , Baal Successfully corrupted the worldstone and tyreal have to destroy it. So now it means heaven and hell can venture anyhow on to the mortal relam ?

[Lanthanide]

I have a theory about the end of LoD. I had 8 points in support of it but I've forgotten most of them now (and the email account that had the email is long gone). I emailed them to Chris Metzen asking if it was on the right track, he said it was a very interesting theory but wouldn't give any more hints than that :)

Basically, I don't think it is Tyrael at the end of LoD that destroys the worldstone. I think it is Belial, lord of lies (ie, illusions).
1. Tyrael loses his sword in the cinematic at the end of Act 2 in the fight with Baal, yet he is seen with the sword in the LoD cinematic.
2. Tyrael's 'wings' in the LoD cinematic look quite different from those in the Act 2 cinematic - they look more liquidy and squid-like rather than distinct ribbons of light. This could easily just be an art direction change, of course.
3. The worldstone looks like it is very very massive, and Baal has probably only been there for a few days at most, yet Tyrael says it is completely corrupted to the core - seemed like pretty fast work by Baal.
4. I vaguely remember something about what Tyrael says to the hero in-game as being a bit ominous, when he makes the portal he says something like "you deserve your final rest" - can anyone get a quote from the game on that?
5. I remember something about the worldstone chamber being protected so that Tyrael couldn't enter it, but can't recall what my objection to that was.

[aishilee]

wow. haha . thats is some cool ideas u got there. lord of lies.. illusion.. haha . nice.

[mince pies]

I'm pretty sure it was Baal who prevented Tyrael from entering the Worldstone, and with the adventurer defeating him, he would be allowed back in. About the sword, he could probably get another one made in Heaven. Very interesting theory though :smiley:

On another note, do you think the Prime Evils would have offspring like the rest of us or would they just spawn?

[BlackAlien]

This D3 fake trailer is just awesome (http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=hO43UYJonRo&feature=related)

[Aranock]

Interesting ideas indeed. I never thought twice to analyze that lst cinematic. I'm going to have to watch it again.

[Lanthanide]

I'm pretty sure it was Baal who prevented Tyrael from entering the Worldstone, and with the adventurer defeating him, he would be allowed back in. About the sword, he could probably get another one made in Heaven. Very interesting theory though :smiley:
So one objection to that is that Tyrael surely knew where Baal was going (why else would he go up north?), so why didn't he get to the worldstone first and protect it from Baal?

As for the new sword, yeah, that's possible.

[aishilee]

hmm. tyreal was trying to prevent diablo from releasing baal. but that marius release baal instead while diablo was fighting with tyreal. so with the help from baal..tyreal got chained up in tal rasha tomb. ya. by the time we save tyreal, baal had alrdy gone to the north. and by the time we reach the north.. baal had alrdy seal the chamber with someting to prevent tyreal from entering.

[UGTM]

Actually Baal could enter the Worldstone Keep without being challenged by the ancient guardians because he was holding the Ancient Relic (which he got from Nihlathak). That relic was created for Tyrael at first, and anyone who held it would enter the WSK without challenge.
Which tells us a very important thing about the nephalem: even the prime evils are afraid of them, because of their powers. :smiley:

[korialstraz]

Speaking of the Nephalem, not only The Prime Evils fear them, but all of The High Heavens as well, which is why the Angels sought to destroy Sanctuary and mankind in the first place.

Most powerfull being on Sanctuary was at least during the first invasion of The High Heaven and Burning Hells was called Uldysian Ul-Diomedes (Or something along those lines).

[UGTM]

Yes, that's true also.
But i must add that in my opinion, the High Heaven's reason for destroying Sanctuary was not only the power of the Nephalem, but also the fact that they were angels and demons hybrids. Only by the sacrifice of Uldyssian they (especially Tyrael) actually saw that mankind has it's own freewill and they ruled to let them live without any interfeer by them and also by the demons (the pact with Mephisto leaving his mark on Sanctuary and getting Inarius).

[Lanthanide]

Here's Tyrael's speech at the end of Act 4:

"Praise be to the Light! You have accomplished the impossible!

Diablo and Mephisto have been banished back into the Black Abyss that spawned them, and the corrupted Soulstones are no more.

However, while you were fighting here, Baal remained behind in the mortal realm, building an army of hellish minions. Now, Baal's army is searching for the Worldstone, the ancient source of all the Soulstones and their power, while leaving behind a wake of destruction. They have forged deeply into the Barbarian homelands, heading directly for the summit of Mount Arreat!

Baal knows, mortal hero! hat is the very site of the blessed Worldstone!

Now, enter the portal I have opened for you. It will take you to the Barbarian city of Harrogath, the last bastion of Order on the slopes of Arreat."

It appears that at the time Tyrael is saying this, Baal has not yet reached the worldstone. Therefore, why didn't he simply get there before Baal did? I think the eaisiest answer is something like "Tyrael can't do everything - his powers have limits, otherwise he would have just killed Diablo himself".


Anyway, I found a site that has the NPC dialogues for the quests from Act 1-4, as well as parts from the Manuals for D1, D2 and D2X, which could be useful for people. It also has general descriptions of the various Diablo books, as well as a summary of the 3rd book (pity it doesn't have summaries for the others).

http://www.blizzplanet.com/content/428/

[Dorfoumous]

Something to ponder..

In "Christiananity" (I know its not "diablo cannon" but follow) Satan, Diablo, is a FALLEN angel.

The anti-Christ that comes back, is often seen as a false light...or someone who has all of the "elements of Christ" but is seeking to condem people by saying He is the risen messiah but really isn't...but he has the same "powers as Christ"

Tyrael anyone?

Could it be that Tyrael was using you as a pawn for his evil game so you could defeat all of the "prime evils" so that he can take over hell for himself?

*cue creepy music*

I mean after all he he honestly do anything? Other than making you do everything?

[korialstraz]

Have you read the Sin Wars Dorf?

SPOILER:

Tyreal was the Angel who led the way for the coming of The High Heavens to Sanctuary. He was meant to cause as much chaos so that there would be no resistance when the res of The Host arrived. After Uldysian sent all the Andels and Demons away and saved the world from his own subconciusnes, he and his friends was taken to the Andiris Council and listened to the Angels discuss the fate of Sanctuary. There Tyreal voted against crushing the humans and destroying Sanctuary, but to let the Nephalem have a chance to mature into the powers inherant in them :wink3:

[UGTM]

Tyrael is not allowed to do anything, to interfeer in this war. All he can do is give advice and that's it. Remember he was the savior of Sanctuary, that's the most important thing !
But...there is the possibility that he gets corrupted by the already corrupted worldstone.

Oh, and i somehow have the same theory with Dorfoumous, but with Deckard Cain, not Tyrael. :smiley: He is the one giving you the quests to defeat the prime evils, and being the last of the Horadrim, maybe he seeks power to himself.

[korialstraz]

So Tyreal is saviour of Sanctuary :rolleyes:
How did that happen? :laughing:

I don't think Deckard has any other evil intents except for the item switch trick before ID'ing :rolleyes:

But who said Deckard is the last Horadrim? He is the only one saying so isn't it? And if so it could be that it's just a coverup for the rest of the Horadrim :scratch:

[UGTM]

Actually, since Tyrael is the one that had the decisive vote in the Angiris Council, we could say he's the savior of Sactuary, can't we ? :smiley:
And no, Deckard Cain is not the only one saying he's the last of the Horadrim, Tyrael also says this (go to act 4, talk to Tyrael and "Gossip").

Cheers,
UGTM

[korialstraz]

I don't think Tyreal would have changed his minds if it wasn't for Uldysian and his friends speaking their minds when standing before the Angiris council, so you can also say it was them who saved Sanctuary :laugh:

But I see what you mean, just throwing out some random thoughts :rolleyes:

Oh right I forgot Tyreal said so too. It can still be some kind of grand scheme on the Horadrims side :azn:

[Aranock]

Good discussion, i haven't read all the diablo books so it's interesting to see the different facts.

I doubt Cain or Tyreal or become evil or power greedy though, i think there are plenty of things that are still wide open and need answering.

Plus, i think fans, such as myself, would be pissed off by the notion of either of them turning evil :rant:

[mince pies]

Tyrael seems pretty useless to me, I mean what has he ACTUALLY done? He got his *** pwned by Baal and Diablo in the act 2 cinematic (they weren't even in their original forms) and how he survived it, I don't know.

[Aranock]

Something to think about-

3 Prime Evils were contained within Soulstones (Diablo, Mephisto, & Baal)
4 Lesser Evils were just beings - but had the ability to overcome the 3 prime evils at one point even being mortal.... (Azmodan, Belial, Duriel, & Andariel)

Well if the 3 Prime evils were all contained within Soulstones, then perhaps the worldstone has a vast amount of evil found within it. We all know that Baal corrupted it to the core, so perhaps he was attempting to revive his brothers within the worldstone itself! Hense, recreating his brothers soulstones! Remember, only their physical forms can die!

Quote referring to Diablo 2-
"Behold the war amongst the heavens shall not be contained, and the sons of man shall be engulfed in the flood of conflict..."
"And he shall make war upon the heavens, and the heavens shall gird themselves as for battle. The righteous shall fall upon the wicked, and lay sheige upon the very gates of hell. And he shall take peace from mankind, and lose great destruction upon the earth, the lord of hatred shall ascend his thrown, and the fires of hell, will devour up all"

There is sure to be a strong heaven and hell influence in this next game, seeing as how the worldstone was somewhat of a barrier between the two.

[NJS]

If the three Prime Evils were overthrown by two Lesser Evils then frankly I don't think Diablo, Baal and Mephi deserve the title of "Prime Evil" Its later mentioned that the Prime Evils planed everything including them to be overthrown by the 2 lessers and "exiled" to the mortal plane. Can't remember where though.

[mince pies]

Ah, so they deliberately let Belial and Azmodan (sp?) to overthrow them? Also, you say that they planned everything, so does that mean that their soulstones being destroyed was part of their plan? Could you perhaps tell me where it is quoted please?

[Aranock]

Its later mentioned that the Prime Evils planed everything including them to be overthrown by the 2 lessers and "exiled" to the mortal plane. Can't remember where though.

Cool, let me know if you find out where. :thumbsup:

[Shock]

I am absolutely loving this thread! I'm gonna go hunt for the books tomorrow. Keep the theories coming!

[Lanthanide]

Its later mentioned that the Prime Evils planed everything including them to be overthrown by the 2 lessers and "exiled" to the mortal plane. Can't remember where though.
Yes, this is correct. I believe it is either in the D2 manual, or in the Great Tomes of dlvl 4/8/12 in D1.

[korialstraz]

Yes, this is correct. I believe it is either in the D2 manual, or in the Great Tomes of dlvl 4/8/12 in D1.

Do you know of any places that has this info? I would love to read it :azn:

Tyreal is in fact a very powerful being, but the pact made with Heavens and Hell makes him incapable of interfering "too much" with the fate pf humans. So he may seem weak in the game, but I'm fairly sure he isn't :thumbsup:

[Aranock]

Yes, this is correct. I believe it is either in the D2 manual, or in the Great Tomes of dlvl 4/8/12 in D1.

Checked the D2 Manual - No word of it. Checked the Diablo 1 tombs (there's a link in the D3 Forum list now) and nothing mentions this.

If you find out specifically where, please post for us.

On a side note, here's a couple more tombs to review, no new news, but one interesting thought came to mind; the 3 prime evils didn't originally have soulstones. The horadrim used them to capture their essences. Therefore, if there essences were trapped within the stones, then destroyed, that leads to a grim chance of them actually being restored through the worldstone. Therefore, if Diablo was in the game, it would likely have to be a prequel (I.E. Original Sin War). Otherwise, looks like they'll play off of the other possibilities. Who am i kidding, this is fantasy and anything can happen. Glory and approbation to Diablo- lord of terror and survivor of the dark exile!!!! :grin:

"So it came to be that the three prime evils were banished in spirit form to the mortal realm and after sewing chaos across the east for decades, they were hunted down by the cursed order of the mortal horadrim. The horadrim used artifacts called soulstones to contain the essence of mephisto, the lord of hatred and his brother baal, the lord of destruction. The youngest brother - diablo, the lord of terror - escaped to the west.

Eventually the horadrim captured diablo within a soulstone as well, and buried him under an ancient, forgotten cathedral. There, the lord of terror sleeps and awaits the time of his rebirth. Know ye that he will seek a body of youth and power to posses - one that is innocent and easily controlled. He will then arise to free his brothers and once more fan the flames of the sin war..."

[Menarus]

I'm not really sure how much the Worldstone is going to play into d3. By that I mean, looking at its actual functions. We have to consider exactly what the Worldstone is and what it did.

|~|Sin War Trilogy Spoiler Warning|~|:

The following is in considerance of the three sin war books, which are considered cannon:

What the Worldstone is: It is a crystal like substance and structure created by Inarius from the essence of creation, some of which was stolen by said angel Inarius.

In the books, it had two main purposes.

1. Keep Sanctuary (the world) hidden from both the burning hells and the high heavens. Well, the burning hells found out about Sanctuary early on and the high heavens found out later in the series.

|~| Therefore, that purpose sort of went to waste, especially so considering that in the actual diablo games, both heaven and hell obviously know of Sanctuary... heaven could be argued, however, Tyrael knew and there was a meeting of the Angris council (The group of angels that rule? the high heavens).

2. To dampen the powers of the Nephailm, or in other words, humanity; those born of the union between Lilith (Demon) and Inarius (Angel). Uldyssian had altered the Worldstone at some point and I believe this was what the alteration effected... I believe it removed that dampening ability (not entirely sure). However, I'm not sure how important it really is, considering how in the games the hero is so powerful anyway. Either way, in the story, after all was sad and done, humanity lost all memory of having their powers.. so I'm not sure the powers being dampened or not matters.

So, the conclusion I'm getting to here... is that the main properties that the Worldstone held were sort of... useless at the point of Baal corrupting it...

So the only things I can really see coming of it

The typical: something happens to Tyrael, corruption or otherwise.
The improbable: everyone is all super powered since there’s no dampening of power (may or may not be plausible)

Heaven pretty much knows about Sanctuary anyway, so not sure much would be involved there (Although, merely on a hunch, I have a feeling theres going to be a fight with the high heavens... that’s just my guess, I predict tons of angels in d3)

I'd also like to point out... that the Worldstone is not essential in the stability of Sanctuary, so I don't believe there’s going to be any of the world exploding or that sort of ridiculous notion.

Not really sure what to expect, I can see no real conclusion being made from this about the story of d3... however, it does disprove some notions and gives some idea, hence I have posted it.

[Aranock]

Good ideas. Keep em coming :thumbsup:

[Lanthanide]

Found it. Izual's speech when you kill him:


Tyrael was a fool to have trusted me!

You see, it was I who told Diablo and his Brothers about the Soulstones and how to corrupt them. It was I who helped the Prime Evils mastermind their own exile to your world.

The plan we set in motion so long ago cannot be stopped by any mortal agency. Hell, itself, is poised to spill forth into your world like a tidal wave of blood and nightmares.

You and all your kind . . . are doomed.

Then Tyrael's:


Thank you, hero, for putting Izual's tortured spirit to rest. May the Light protect you and the powers of Heaven shine upon your path.

But, if what you tell me is true, then I fear that we have been played for fools all along.

Izual helped Diablo and his Brothers trick me into using the Soulstones against them . . . Now the Stones' powers are corrupted.

With the combined powers of the Soulstones under their control, the Prime Evils will be able to turn the mortal world into a permanent outpost of Hell!

[Bloodedmayhem]

Soo many good idea's in this thread :D

BK,

[NJS]

Found it. Izual's speech when you kill him
: Thanks Lanthanide. Been so long since I have done that quest I couldn't remember where to find that text for the life of me lol.

[Aranock]

Izual helped Diablo and his Brothers trick me into using the Soulstones against them . . . Now the Stones' powers are corrupted.

With the combined powers of the Soulstones under their control, the Prime Evils will be able to turn the mortal world into a permanent outpost of Hell!

My interpretation of the above is that the Horadrim (and Tyrael) used the Soulstones to capture the essences of the 3 Prime Evils long ago; however, what they did not expect is that the soul stones power was to become corrupted to the point it would transfer the evil contained within to any individual who possesses it. The length of corruption, of course, dependant upon the mind and body of the bearer (I.E. Comparing Leorics Son to the our hero from D1) which results in inevitable remanifestation of the prime evils. I suppose this was the intention Izual had when tricking Tyrael into using the soul stones.....to make the prime evils immortal in a sense...so they could bring evil and dwell on the mortal plane as long as the soul stones remained in tact- The prime evils, even if defeated, would just corrupt their next victim (Hense: Leoric's Son in D1....Defeated.....Then corrupted our hero in D1....Defeated...etc) in an endless cycle. I suppose the key that is missing in the big red in d3 equation would be is if destroying the soul stones defeated the prime evils permenantly, or if there is a way to bring their soul stones or essences back. :evil:

Thanks Lanthanide! - I appreciate you looking that up! :thumbsup: I too completely forgot about that in-game sub-story speech, been a while since i focused on the story.

Thanks to everyone for contributing - post is becoming quite the Diablo refresher course

[aishilee]

haha. Nice one Lanthandie haha awesome insight gave by izual...

actually i was very eager to post what izual had said after I accidentally on my d2 sound instead of my itunes.. yea ! i can always rmb izual saying. " Tyreal was a FOOL to have trusted me!. You see it was I who ... "

The EXILE WAS PLANNED ! . this answered one of the post.
the prime evil do deserve the title. also answered one of the post.

but why would they wan to plan an exile ?

[korialstraz]

To that last question aishilee, only thing I can think of is that they tried to trick Tyreal and the High Heavens. Both Angels and Demons promised not to interfer with the Nephalem. Perhaps by getting themselves exiled, they believe they can fool the Angels.

[Aranock]

Here's some lore to add to the subject:

"Seven is the number of the Powers of Hell, and Seven is the number of the Great Evils."

Duriel, the Lord of Pain
Andariel, the Maiden of Anguish
Belial, the Lord of Lies
Azmodan, the Lord of Sin

These are the true names of the lesser of the Great Evils. For ages uncounted each have ruled over their own domains within the Burning Hells, seeking absolute dominion over their infernal brethren. As the Lesser Four continuously vied for the control of those forces that dwelled within their realms, the Greater Three held absolute power over the whole of Hell. The Lesser Four used dark and evil measures in their quest for power, and herein begins the legend of the Dark Exile.

Mephisto, the Lord of Hatred
Baal, the Lord of Destruction
Diablo, the Lord of Terror

These are the Prime Evils of Hell that wielded their power as a dark, sovereign triumvirate. The Three Brothers ruled over the Lesser Four by brutal force and malicious cunning. Being the eldest and strongest of the Evils, the Three Brothers were responsible for countless victories against the armies of the Light. Although they never held sway over the High Heavens for long, the Three were justly feared by enemies and subject alike.

With the ascension of Man and the subsequent standstill of the Great Conflict, the Three Brothers began to devote their energies to the perversion of mortal souls. The Three realized that Man was the key to victory in the war against Heaven, and thus altered their rigid agendum that they propagated since the Beginning. This change caused many of the Lesser Evils to question the authority of the Three, and so brought about a great rift between the Prime Evils and their servitors.

In their ignorance, the Lesser Evils began to believe that the Three were afraid to continue the war with Heaven. Frustrated by the cessation of the war, Azmodan and Belial saw the situation as their chance to overthrow the Prime Evils and take control of Hell for themselves. The two demon lords made a pact with their minor brethren, assuring them that the wretched plague of humanity would not deter the ultimate victory of the sons of Hell. Azmodan and Belial devised a plan to end the stalemate, achieve victory in the Sin War and ultimately ride the bloody crest of the Great Conflict straight into the very arms of Armageddon. Thus, a great revolution was set into motion as all of Hell went to war against the Three Brothers...

The Brothers fought with all the savagery of the Underworld, and to their credit, annihilated a third of Hell's treacherous legions. In the end, however, they were overcome by the Horned Death led by the traitors Azmodan and Belial. The Prime Evils, weakened and bodiless, were banished to the mortal realm where Azmodan hoped that they would remain trapped forever. Azmodan believed that with the Three set loose upon humanity, the Angels would be forced to turn their focus upon the mortal plane - thus leaving the Gates of Heaven abandoned and defenseless. Those few demons who still pledged allegiance to the Three Brothers fled the wrath of Azmodan and Belial, escaping to the realm of Man to seek out their lost Masters.

As the warfires died out upon the battlefields of Hell, Azmodan and Belial began to argue over which of them held the higher authority. The pact that they had made quickly fell to ashes as the two demon lords took up arms against each other. The legions of Hell that remained were polarized behind either warlord, launching themselves into a bloody civil war that has lasted to this day..."

I'm thinking the 3 planned on being exiled using Izual as a median because they realized that man, as said above, is the key to the war against heaven.

[korialstraz]

And I think Heaven has realized that man is the key to their victory as well, which further strenghtens my beliefe in a Heaven vs Hell topic in D2. And if it's not a sequel it could be a prequel and the story set to the Sin Wars books, which still means Heaven vs Hell :azn:

[Aranock]

And I think Heaven has realized that man is the key to their victory as well, which further strenghtens my beliefe in a Heaven vs Hell topic in D2. And if it's not a sequel it could be a prequel and the story set to the Sin Wars books, which still means Heaven vs Hell :azn:

Agreed. :innocent: vs. :devil: = :thumbsup:

[Aranock]

I just started a new heaven vs hell forum topic as i believe there will be many theories on it, and it branches off of the original topic quite well.

Very good discussion in this forum, if you have any thoughts on the matter you can find the post here (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=654753)

[Pyratheon]

Just a couple of things.

Izual: Fallen angel, who lead a suicidal assault into hell wielding his sword. Azurewrath. Presumably this was a ruse.

Soulstones: Originally evils didn't have them. I don't believe it ever says anything about the evils dying when their soulstones are destroyed. In fact, IIRC that is how Lazarus frees diablo in the first place(could be wrong). The information we are given regarding them is that, because they are corrupted te evils can use them to take over the world. This is why the must be destroyed. How they do that, im not sure, perhaps they have the ability to corrupt the worldstone and that is why. So the evils aren't necessarily dead, which i consider a good thing.

[AluminumKnight]

When you think about, Tyrael's actions at the end of LoD are pretty suspicious, leading me to think there is something wrong with him, or he has been tricked. I know Tyrael being corrupted has been beaten practically to death, but hear me out here:

Tyrael cannot directly interfere in the war, so that's why the hero has to do all the work. However, he does destroy the Worldstone in the end, saying that it is corrupted.

If Tyrael's goal was to destroy the Worldstone (ignoring Baal and corruption and such) for some devious or misguided purpose, there are a couple of reasons he couldn't: He is not allowed to interfere (see above) and the Nephalem would prevent him. Obviously Baal even needed the thing from Nihlathak, so Tyrael would also need that.

By using the hero to get past the Nephalem and kill Baal, Tyrael now has an excuse to enter the Worldstone Chamber, and claim that the Worldstone is corrupted, allowing him to destroy it.

There are a few possibilities I can see coming from this:

1. Tyrael is really someone else or somehow controlled by someone else, possibly Belial (as posted earlier).

1a. Tyrael has become corrupted and is now allied with Azmodan/Belial/some other evil force. Whatever the case, it seems apparent that the Prime Evils were out of the loop on this, as I can't see them volunteering to die like that.

2. Tyrael thinks that the Worldstone should be destroyed in order to grant Heaven direct access to Sanctuary. It may be that he is rebelling against the other angels, or perhaps not. In this case, he is not corrupted, just misguided.

[aishilee]

ARR! lol all this theories. . so many theories. !! arrr!!

I dun wan D3 be a game anymore. someone juz continue writing the story !!

I am sick of heavan vs hell. I think We humans should be the one dominating both hell and heavan relam. Human Vs Hell Vs Heaven. Free For All. i think our charcs are pretty powerful,

Even the Manual said " The final step in mastering the destructive powers of the firmament, this skill gives a Sorceress finer control and mastery over her powers. Once she has reached this point in her studies, she can begin to rival the powers of the Heavens themselves. "

lol at level 30 we could rival the powers of heavens. haha. we are good.

[korialstraz]

Neither the hosts of High Heavens or the armies of the Burning Hells was a match against the strongest Nephalem alive during the Sin Wars. Uldysian sent all of the warriors of Heaven and the Demons from Hell back to where they came from almost without breaking a sweat. All of them :shocked:

[Aranock]

If Diablo 3 isn't announced in Paris, i think i may just :hang: myself after all this anticipation heh

[mince pies]

I agree with the other theory about the "Tyrael" we see at the end being Belial. I don't think Tyrael would allow himself to be corrupted/misguided

[LouisLeGros]

Neither the hosts of High Heavens or the armies of the Burning Hells was a match against the strongest Nephalem alive during the Sin Wars. Uldysian sent all of the warriors of Heaven and the Demons from Hell back to where they came from almost without breaking a sweat. All of them :shocked:

so he was a hammerdin?

[korialstraz]

You could say that, though it didn't kill :grin:

[Akimbo]

Just a quick question to clear something up for me...

We defeat Andarial and Duriel who have no soul stones. Ok so far so good.
We then defeat Mephisto and destroy his soul stone at the hellforge. Ok, one down.
We then defeat Diablo and...do nothing with his soul stone?
Then we defeat Baal and....do nothing with his either?
I get the weird feeling the worldstone is kinda like one big soulstone in effect...

Just a little confused by that.

added: found this http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=653129 which kinda discusses it I think. ( literally just found it. )

Anyway here is a brief, if flawed idea:

Worldstone holds heaven and hell at bay.
Defeated evils return to hell.
Whole game leads up to the removal of the worldstone allowing all the evils to return, however this also allows the angels to step in as well.

Anyway it's late here, but we have to assume of course that it's called Diablo 3, and thusly Diablo -is in the game!- despite us having "killed" him. If he isn't they wouldn't be able to call it Diablo3....right?

I wanted to comment on everything here, but it's kind of late and I'm kind of tired and lazy :P but I agree the heaven vs hell thing is the whole point of this, and even if my idea is wrong, the overall effect might be right.

[Bad Ash]

Diablo will be in Diablo 3. Think about this (of course speculation), but if the worldstone is destroyed, then heaven and hell can enter the mortal world. I bet the corruption that Baal was trying to put on it was to allow only members of hell to enter and not Heaven, so Tyrael had to destroy it. Anyway, if we kill Diablo and Baal and Mephisto from the mortal world, where do you think the went? HELL! I think the whole soulstone idea was to prevent them from ever gaining form in the mortal world again, but if all of hell is allowed to come into the mortal world, you can bet your butt that the 3 brothers will be there!

I remember reading something that Andy and Durry dont have the same kind of powers so I think they will be replaced by the other 2 lesser evils (meaning they are dead for good). And I think that in the game Tyrael mentioned that he destroyed diablos soulstone? Not sure, I dont remember. But another thing to think about, if they returned to hell and can go back on the mortal world because the worldstone is destroyed, I would guess they would be more powerful in their true forms? Very cool to speculate on, I want this game now after reading this thread! The idea of Tyrael not being Tyrael and the end of the game is sweeeeeet

[Lanthanide]

How many times does this need to be said? Both Meph's and Diablo's soulstones are destroyed on the Hellforge, it can clearly be seen in the final/Act 4 cinematic - Meph's is blue, Diablo's is red.

Baal's stone isn't destroyed as far as we know, but it had previously been shattered (before Baal was captured in it) which is why they needed Tal Rasha to help contain Baal's essence.

[korialstraz]

Also the worldstone was created along with Sanctuary by Inarius, and was intended to keep the powers of the Nephalem in check. Uldysian altered the worldstone to enchance the growth of their powers. He was also (yet again) the only one with powers strong enough to alter the stone at a level he did. He altered the core of the Stone.

So now that it's destroyed will it rob all the Nephalem of their powers?

Do we get more powers?

Will it eventually destroy Sanctuary?

I guess all we can do is guess and wait for the game to be released. I believe Blizzard will make D3 to be a great game :azn:

[Rack]

Also the worldstone was created along with Sanctuary by Inarius, and was intended to keep the powers of the Nephalem in check. Uldysian altered the worldstone to enchance the growth of their powers. He was also (yet again) the only one with powers strong enough to alter the stone at a level he did. He altered the core of the Stone.

So now that it's destroyed will it rob all the Nephalem of their powers?

Do we get more powers?

Will it eventually destroy Sanctuary?

I guess all we can do is guess and wait for the game to be released. I believe Blizzard will make D3 to be a great game :azn:


Here's my opinion of it...

The nephalem never got their powers from the world stone. Their powers come from their genes (Demon and Angel blood). The worldstone "Dampened" thsoe powers originally.

I think after the events of The Sin War, the worldstone was no longer used as the dampening tool for the nephalem's power. I believe heaven and/or hell "made it" where our powers would be gained over time, so that we could learn to control them (Uldyssian kind of got lost in his power). I think I read something like that at the end of the Sin War trilogy. I don't remember it mentioning that they re-modded the worldstone to dampen the nephalem's powers. I believe that they used a different method to dampen our powers after The Sin War, one that would grant us more power over time. I could be wrong about that one though.

I don't think it would destroy sanctuary, although it is a threat. One that the nephalem have to fight to prevent. That very well could be the storyline for D3. But they won't allow sanctuary to be destroyed, cuz then there couldn't be a D4. :D

[mince pies]

I wonder if Uldysian could solo uber Trist... :smile:

Also, if Andariel and Duriel didn't have soulstones then how did they manage to enter the mortal realm if the Prime Evils needed soulstones to enter?

[korialstraz]

@Rack: What I (think) happened was that everything was set back to the beggining (or even slighly before) which is when Uldysian dies of the Plague only leaving his brother left as the last of the family. Nothing AFAIK remember was done to the soulstone. Uldysian's brother joined Rathma and started education Necromancers. Or at least that's what I got out of it =]

[Rack]

@Rack: What I (think) happened was that everything was set back to the beggining (or even slighly before) which is when Uldysian dies of the Plague only leaving his brother left as the last of the family. Nothing AFAIK remember was done to the soulstone. Uldysian's brother joined Rathma and started education Necromancers. Or at least that's what I got out of it =]

That's true, I hadn't thought of that. Interesting.

[IrreducibleParadox]

That's true, I hadn't thought of that. Interesting.

I just want to note the following, I've read three of the Diablo novels and I totally, vehemenently hate them. They made me feel like I was adventuring through the litterary equivalent of a Xena episode. Which doesn't have to be all bad if it wasn't suppose to build upon the epic scope and story set forth by the Diablo cinematics and the diablo one manual which was pretty packed with awesome lore.

In my opinion the story should have been continued something like the following:

An angel stands atop a cliff, radiant although the ground at his feet is torn and soiled. Ahead lies the world, sanctuary in all its glory, the woods the fields the souls of all that live. A soft breeze stirrs the air, playfull, quivering. A church can be seen behind the angel, the abandoned church of Tristram. Suddenly the grounds beneath are whispering, the graveyard floor is stirring with the thoughts of restless dead. They whisper of lies, of death and life, of broken promises. Suddenly they echo a name "Belial" it is heard again and again whinchingly from bellow the earth, and then the moans begin to rise. The moans are not like thoughts, they come from the lungs of dead men, hoarse, hungering. The earth begins to move and yet the angel stands perfectly still, a siluette against the burning horizon and the setting sun. Then the world goes dark and the angel is no more. In his place stands a shade, a great darkness that could trick the eye that it was merelly shadow. A tortured scream echoes from the depth of the catacombs, deep and terrifying.

(The camera sweeps through the catacombs in a flash)

We see a room full of light and shadows. A hundred angels hanging chained from the walls. Tyrael is there to and right above him stands the Maiden of Anguish herself. The angels are silent and still. You hear the sound of someone walking into the great hall. Slow unhurried footsteps, a staff against stone. The demoness turns and stares at the approach of an old man, she smiles.
"Belial", she whispers sensually and then continues bemused "or should I say... Cain..?"
The old man laughs.
"The worldstone is broken sister." He tells her almost affectionately "We need no mortal shells to sustain us in this world no longer. We need no mortal names, not even lies, not anymore." Somewhere dark and far away demonic laughter begins to sound. Higher and higher, it's Diablo, it's his brothers. It's the end of the world.

The plot as I describe it would be based on the following, Tyrael got captured by Baal and Diablo when he fought them and lost his sword. From then on, the player has been led onwards solely by lies. Azmodan has masqueraded as Tyrael, the Lord of Lies Belial has mentored the player as Cain. In fact much of the story as it has been told throughout D2 supports this. Mallah wonders at Tyraels notion of destroying the worldstone but adds, "But if Tyrael says so it must be..." The D2 or if it was LoD manual speak of an illusory defeat of the Three before the final battle. They haven't been killed the soulstones have been crushed, but these were used to lock them in sanctuary, to have them take avatars in a world they could not otherwise walk. Now the borders between Heaven and Hell have fallen, soulstones are needless to the evils, they didn't die, not truly. They were freed by the heroes that later damned their own world through breaking the borders between it and Hell whereas Heaven had already been losing the battle outside of the eyes of men.

[korialstraz]

I don't see what that has to do with the novels being bad. That more described a sequel to D2 LoD whereas The Sin War is a prequel :shocked:

Or did I miss something?

[IrreducibleParadox]

I haven't read the latest triology of prequels. I've just read the Kingdom of Shadow, the Black Road and Legacy of Blood. And from what I gather of them I'm not so sure if I want the Diablo books to be the premise for the continuation of the main storyline. That's all I'm saying. I then add one idea that I had about the story from back in the day when I played through the games and was making up theories of how they'd be continued.

[korialstraz]

Now I follow you. Was a great theory you had, but imho Cain should stay good. He just cracks me up somehow. Yea I know, weird but whatever.

Also imho The Kingdom of Shadow and Moon of the Spider (I think that was what they were called) was good novels. I really enoyed Legacy of Blood as well though Kingdom of Shadow didn't impress me that much, but in it's own way it was good as well. I can definately recomend the new trilogy. The Sin Wars was awesome :azn:

[IrreducibleParadox]

Now I follow you. Was a great theory you had, but imho Cain should stay good. He just cracks me up somehow. Yea I know, weird but whatever.

Also imho The Kingdom of Shadow and Moon of the Spider (I think that was what they were called) was good novels. I really enoyed Legacy of Blood as well though Kingdom of Shadow didn't impress me that much, but in it's own way it was good as well. I can definately recomend the new trilogy. The Sin Wars was awesome :azn:

Did you like or not like Kingdom of Shadow? :wink3:

Anyway I'm not saying that the books were horrible litterature, I thought they were OK. But I didn't feel like they captured the awesomeness of Diablo. I think its been nearly four years since I read them so my memory is a bit scetchy, but I do recall that I had two huge problems with the books. One being that they used actual spell names and classes from the games instead of just depicting something that made the player draw the connection. I thought this was cheesy to say the least. Secondly in Legacy of Blood I thought that the armies that were depicted felt completely hollow. I mean to create armies in a book isn't difficult, you don't need a big budget. You only need a sentence to get someone to think of an army, like this;

There were thousands of men, thousands of lungs drawing breaths of the scorching desert air, thousands of feet in the burning sands... etc.

But I felt like the armies of that book were just scenery and that reminded me of a lot of B-movies or spinoff series. To me Diablo is the alpha of grim fantasy games therefore I have a hard time mixing it with books that I find to be just, ok.

[korialstraz]

Did you like or not like Kingdom of Shadow? :wink3:

I mean the Black Road did not impress me much :laugh:



Anyway I'm not saying that the books were horrible litterature, I thought they were OK. But I didn't feel like they captured the awesomeness of Diablo. I think its been nearly four years since I read them so my memory is a bit scetchy, but I do recall that I had two huge problems with the books. One being that they used actual spell names and classes from the games instead of just depicting something that made the player draw the connection. I thought this was cheesy to say the least. Secondly in Legacy of Blood I thought that the armies that were depicted felt completely hollow. I mean to create armies in a book isn't difficult, you don't need a big budget. You only need a sentence to get someone to think of an army, like this;

There were thousands of men, thousands of lungs drawing breaths of the scorching desert air, thousands of feet in the burning sands... etc.

But I felt like the armies of that book were just scenery and that reminded me of a lot of B-movies or spinoff series. To me Diablo is the alpha of grim fantasy games therefore I have a hard time mixing it with books that I find to be just, ok.

I can agree with you on the. The Moon of the Spider and Kingdom oh Shadow (the books with Zayl) was well written when it came to what spells was used in the book as well as the game. I loved how it was described that Bone spear was Trag'ouls Claws and Bone Teeths or whatever that skills is is the teeths of Trag'Oul, and I also loved how he mixed some spells (mainly Moon of the Spide I think).

There are some mixing of spells in The Sin Wars as well, but there arn't anything specific relating to D2 as far as I can remember. But that may be because it's a prequel :wink2:

[Zeek]

To answer a previous question about why Tyreal shouldn't be able to enter the worldstone chamber, maybe it was because of Tyreal's speech at the end of Act II. "I am broken and the energies that tie me to this world are diminishing rapidly". I take it that after the fight with Diablo and Baal that Tyreal's power to enter the mortal realm was destroyed. They probably left him in the tomb like a james bond villian. Knowing that he would lose his power to stay in the mortal realm and die if he was left there long enough. The hero got there in time to release him and Tyreal went back to the chaos sanctuary.

Now whether or not he could recharge his power to enter the mortal realm or not is the question. If not then that begs the question how he entered the worldstone chamber. Is it not a part of sanctuary? Was that really Tyreal?

[Mestre Crjspim]

"We need no mortal names, not even lies, not anymore."

In your plot, this is Belial speaking... but isn't Belial THE Lord of LIES? Lies are his "breathing air". Without lies, Belial would just be an ordinary demon. If Belial makes his debut in Diablo III, I would be most disappointed if he didn't shape-shifted when we battled him and only at the end of that battle, possibly in a cinematic, we would see his really appearence. Speaking of him, I recall "battling Belial in "Realms of the Haunting" videogame. If I recall well, he had his illusions as well. I'll dig more on it and try to post it here.

[IrreducibleParadox]

In your plot, this is Belial speaking... but isn't Belial THE Lord of LIES? Lies are his "breathing air". Without lies, Belial would just be an ordinary demon. If Belial makes his debut in Diablo III, I would be most disappointed if he didn't shape-shifted when we battled him and only at the end of that battle, possibly in a cinematic, we would see his really appearence. Speaking of him, I recall "battling Belial in "Realms of the Haunting" videogame. If I recall well, he had his illusions as well. I'll dig more on it and try to post it here.

Well, my idea is based around a scenario where evil has pretty much ruled the day. Belial says what he does because although he is the lord of lies he knows when its time for a frontal assault. He's also at the moment guised as Deckard Cain who might have been replaced in tristram in D2 or been false all along so it is not like he isn't a shapeshifter. If you would prefer then Belial could just as well be the shadowy angel and the masquerading Cain could be Azmodan who speaks affectionately to Andariel because they are somewhat together as avatars of Sin.

[Mestre Crjspim]

I did understand ypur original plot without this last explanation and I can see the point for the sentence that I quoted. Still, as I said, Belial is the one and only Lord of Lies, so without lies, he would be like nothing... a lesser demon gnawing on some bones in a dark corner. Lies, deception, ilusion are his powers, so you should rephrase it. In the general I did like your ideas, although I really do fancy Cain, specially in DII where he identifies everything for free. And the quest for rescuing him is one, IMHO, of the most comic in the game. Surrounded by demons, locked in a cage, the town burned to ashes... but still alive!!!

[Kiroptus]

I have a theory about Belial. Please dont kill me for posting it!

I truly believe that Belial = Cain. The real cain was never found, maybe is still locked away somewhere or maybe even dead, but let me get to the point of why I think that.

Hellgate london. I know, a different game from the same creators of Diablo but there is something odd about the way the story unfolds. Firstly there is something about "Finding the truths and fighting the lies". In the game's lore, it made no sense. But if there was a "Lord of Lies" in it, things would be different, Belial would make this plot element have some sense.

I know HGL isnt Diablo3, its a big dissapointment but I feel that the developers were stucked in Diablo's lore and thats why they tossed the "Truths and lies" plot into it. So I truly believe that there are some hints of "what would be Diablo3" in it (its the only good thing that this game has done to me. To have further speculations on Diablo3).

SPOILERS FOR HGL.

Anyway, back to Cain, in HGL, in the end the NPC that is always following you, Murmur, turns out to be the bad guy and was manipulating you all to do his dirty work for him.

I think its fits the "lies" and "deception" concept that someone with the title of "Lord of lies" deserves but most specially in HGL I noticied some really lack of imagination to bring a new concept to the game, the writers (who probably were still stuck with Diablo's lore in their mind) still wanted to make a "Diablo 3" so they made what they originally had planned for Diablo 3 in HGL's poor story and crammed the plot elements in a lore with very little development in it. Simply because they had no more ideas and wanted to make a pseudo-Diablo3. (HGL's marketing was all around Diablo's sucess, if you havent followed it).

It made little sense, was out of synch with the storyline and looked silly in HGL. But I think this "ammateurism" was a big hint of how Diablo3's storyline would be like but that doesnt mean it would be as bad as it looks in HGL. It sucked there because there was no Lore to back it up but done properly in Diablo3, I think it could be very interesting..

So summing up:

You need to find the truths
And you need the fight the lies
->There, they tossed those elements because Belial was stuck in their heads.
And then.
The main NPC turns out to be the Villian.
->Since Belial was still stuck in their heads, and in the end of HGL you discover that you were being manipulated and fooled all the time, it matches with the "Lord of Lies" that he is supposed to have. And lets face it, if he was cain all along Diablo2 he would certainly be very worthy of his title.

Btw... maybe its just me but I feel something sinister on Cain's last shot in LoD, when you defeat baal and earn your title.



... Yeah its kind more like me trying to get into the creators of Diablo's head by analyzing their most recent work that strayed away from the diablo's franchise. Certainly its quite possible that since they arent in Blizzard anymore that this whole idea was just scrapped but I have a lot of conviction based on the assumptions that HGL presented to me that, at least in Bill Roper's vision, that in Diablo 3 we would find a quest to find the "truths" and finding the "lies" and a main supporting NPC would reveal to be fooling you all along, thus making Belial worthy of this title, so I would suspect Cain, for being alive in Tristam when everyone was dead. It always seemed odd to me.

But yeah, its only a theory. :P

[IrreducibleParadox]

About Cain being Belial
Scroll back a couple of pages and you'll read that I've suggested the exact same thing and more in a previous reply to this post. Mainly I wrote it as I would have continued the story or perhaps imagined that Blizzard might have continued it. Today so much time has passed that I'm not sure that the basic ideas held by Blizzard North back in the day still remain.

(Edit: In fact its on the page just before this one)

[Kiroptus]

Yeah I know, I just didnt see HGL being mentioned (maybe I missed it :P). HGL is easily my biggest dissapointment in the videogames area but I thought it really gave some hints of how Diablo 3 would be in terms of plot structure.

[IrreducibleParadox]

Yeah I know, I just didnt see HGL being mentioned (maybe I missed it :P). HGL is easily my biggest dissapointment in the videogames area but I thought it really gave some hints of how Diablo 3 would be in terms of plot structure.

I was hyped about HG at the first news from Flagship studios, after that I just grew more and more sceptical until the release at which point I really didn't care anymore. The setting is so so, the graphics are so so, the controls are so so etc. etc...
I find nothing exceptional about the game whereas Diablo still has one of the most athmospheric themes in the gaming sphere. I just hope they don't blow it through inputting to much of the less then excellent books into the wonderfull world of sanctuary. They shouldn't explain to much, they should keep it dark and brooding, full of demons and lies and mystical angels.

If they try to make an MMO of the game it could easilly be destroyed, if they take bad turns with the story it could be destroyed. If they ruin the gameplay it could be destroyed and so on. I am really fearful of how D3 might turn out, and hopefull at the same time. But fortunately games are improving atm and Blizzard is no longer as alone in creating quality experiences as they were back in the days.

[Justa]

couple things occurred to me as i read through this thread:

1) It got brought up that Tyrael/(belial?) could be plotting something and used the adventurer to defeat the ancients so that he could pass and destroy the worldstone, but as i see it the ancients weren't really killed. sure you defeat them, but then they congratulate you and revert back to the statues you initially see them as - just waiting for the next challenger be it man/demon/archangel etc. of course things brings to question how tyrael got in there anyway.. unless the ancients had to rest up after being whacked by the player..

2) may have been suggested but who says D3 is set after the events in D2? Maybe it will cover some of the lesser known stuff that happened in the past. Maybe you can play as horadrim in their glory days?

personally i think the game will be set after the events of D2, and tyrael will remain 'good' as will cain lol, but there will prolly be some plot twist we don't see coming.. you know what blizzard is like

[Mestre Crjspim]

I recall "battling Belial in "Realms of the Haunting" videogame. If I recall well, he had his illusions as well. I'll dig more on it and try to post it here.

I found some interesting information about Belial in Realms of the Haunting that made me speculate on Diablo II and Diablo III plot. It is just another idea to add to the numerous we have in this thread...

In wiki, Belial is discribed as follows:

Belial - Another major antagonist, Belial is a demon, one so powerful that in mythology he has often been confused with the Power of Satan itself. Belial pursues Adam throughout the story, attempting to seize Adam's power for himself so he can use it to bring about the end of the world. Once the trusted familiar of Florentine, Belial is now actively working against Florentine as the two compete for the favor of their master, the devil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realms_of_the_Haunting

I underlined the most interesting part of the text to explain my following spectulation. If we see Diablo as Satan, Belial could be "confused" with him, as mencioned above. So, "the Diablo" we killed in Diablo II could be Belial in one of his illusions. It's impossible because Belial and Azmodan were at war with the Prime Evils? Maybe, however, when Diablo entered the portal in The Durance of Hate that lead him to Hell, certaintly he did "hunt" for his 2 lesser brothers. Before the great power of the Lord of Terror, the 2 lesser evils could just break down joining forces again with him. Being so, Diablo could just go and prepare his own army of demons to assault Sanctuary as soon as the Worldstone was destroyed by Baal... or Tyrael. Belial was leaft behind as a con to fool us, Cain and Tyrael. So, Diablo now has the opportunity to invade "our" world with a vast army of hellish demons...

I must say that I did't read the "Sin War" books yet, so if something here is contradicting something in the books, I will just leave this storyline.

[korialstraz]

That was a very interesting theory. I don't see how Belial could have done that however, but maybe in DIII Belial will fool us to believe he is Diablo until sometime during the storyline the real Diablo will be back. Blizzard will find some way to bring him back, but having Belial as a dummy Dia could be an interesting twist if done correctly :smiley:

[Gashad]

Hmm, i don't think that Tyrael is really a shapeshifted deamon. The reason?, it has been done before. You know in the end of the the classic game when baal tricks that guy(dunno his name) to give him his soulstone, making him believe he is Tyrael. I don't think the diablo 2 writers will repeat the same trick.

There is one angel who has always made me very suspicious though. The angel that tells you about the seals in diablo's sanctuary. Now this angel is in the middle of hell surrounded by demons on all sides, yet none of them attack him. This makes me very suspicious.

It could of course be argued that in Diablo 2 Story is sacrificed for gameplay (no doubt about it) and hence while the Angel being there is not realistic it serves a gameplay purpose by informing the character how to open the seals. However it could be argued that Cain or Tyrael could have held the same role(besides its not that hard to figure out).

Also Belial can be seen to have every incentive to aid the character as Diablo would probably give him a fate worth then death if he conquered the world.

This is probably just a vain attempt to make the diablo 2 story make sense(something which it clearly at times doesn't), but I would arque that the seal angel being a demon is considerably more likely then Tyrael being one. Even though I think neither will(as the seal angel was such a minor character he will probably not return)

[IrreducibleParadox]

I found some interesting information about Belial in Realms of the Haunting that made me speculate on Diablo II and Diablo III plot. It is just another idea to add to the numerous we have in this thread...

In wiki, Belial is discribed as follows:

Belial - Another major antagonist, Belial is a demon, one so powerful that in mythology he has often been confused with the Power of Satan itself. Belial pursues Adam throughout the story, attempting to seize Adam's power for himself so he can use it to bring about the end of the world. Once the trusted familiar of Florentine, Belial is now actively working against Florentine as the two compete for the favor of their master, the devil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realms_of_the_Haunting

I underlined the most interesting part of the text to explain my following spectulation. If we see Diablo as Satan, Belial could be "confused" with him, as mencioned above. So, "the Diablo" we killed in Diablo II could be Belial in one of his illusions. It's impossible because Belial and Azmodan were at war with the Prime Evils? Maybe, however, when Diablo entered the portal in The Durance of Hate that lead him to Hell, certaintly he did "hunt" for his 2 lesser brothers. Before the great power of the Lord of Terror, the 2 lesser evils could just break down joining forces again with him. Being so, Diablo could just go and prepare his own army of demons to assault Sanctuary as soon as the Worldstone was destroyed by Baal... or Tyrael. Belial was leaft behind as a con to fool us, Cain and Tyrael. So, Diablo now has the opportunity to invade "our" world with a vast army of hellish demons...

I must say that I did't read the "Sin War" books yet, so if something here is contradicting something in the books, I will just leave this storyline.

I don't think that Diablo is killed. The info of what happens when you destroy the soulstones is not very clear. Personally I believe that the soulstones are needed for so long as the worldstone acts to protect the world from external forces. With the worldstone gone I think that destroying the soulstones is the same as releasing the souls of the evils from masks they weren't needing anymore.

PS the Lesser evils were not at war with the Prime evils, Izual confesses when you kill him that it was all a rouse. They tricked the angels into capturing them Prime evils in soulstones because they knew that they would become anchors for them with which they would be at an advantage in sanctuary.

[aishilee]

There is one angel who has always made me very suspicious though. The angel that tells you about the seals in diablo's sanctuary. Now this angel is in the middle of hell surrounded by demons on all sides, yet none of them attack him. This makes me very suspicious.



The 2 rows of statues infront of him is also very interesting. The statue head will tilt and will stare at your character as you walk pass them. don't know what it is for.. might be CCTV for diablo himself ?

[korialstraz]

They actually do that? :shocked:

I never noticed that, but I will definately see if they do :laugh:

[aishilee]

haha. i didnt notice that until i read a thread about all the funny things in D2 a very long time ago.

yea. its scary.

[korialstraz]

Hehe. When you think you've seen it all, you discover something new :smiley:

[Aranock]

Just annouced at WWI on Sunday. Leonard Boyarsky said in regards to new demons that there are 7 demons in hell, and you can count how many have been killed so far. Looks like Belial and Azmodan are in it for sure! :thumbup:

[Evasive]

This has been very interesting reading. Keep it up!

[luciferxdevil]

From the Kotaku interview linked to on the diabloii.net homepage:


Jay Wilson: In the previous two games, Diablo and his two brothers, Mephisto and Baal, were the three Prime Evils of a world called Sanctuary. Where we start off in Diablo III, it’s twenty years later (after Diablo II: Lord of Destruction) and the brothers are gone, they’ve been vanquished. Essentially everyone was kind of geared for Hell to actually invade. At the end of Lord of Destruction, the Worldstone was destroyed, it left a giant crater and everyone was expecting the hordes to come pouring out of it and nothing happened. So, Deckard Cain is one of our main characters from the first two games, he’s spent the last two decades trying to find out where the last two Evils are, what they’re doing and why the invasion didn’t happen. A lot of the rest of the story focuses on Tyrael, the Angel of Justice, and what’s happened to him since that event as he was actually the angel who destroyed the world.

Looks like Belial and Azmodan are in it for sure. No idea what could be up with Tyrael though.

[Thirty-Thirty]

Wow, I hadn't seen that interview before, and it throws a bit of a new spin on things (for me at least).


...and the brothers are gone, they've been vanquished.

Eh? It isn't Diablo without Diablo!

[Alkey]

I didn't think you could vanquish the prime evils. They are, you know, immortal. Maybe since thier defeat it takes time for them to reform, maybe just about 20 years?....Then again, I would think time flows differently in Hell.

I have an inkling that a battle against the heavens is in store. Angels are not perfect, they are prideful, but ordered. Hell is decadent and chaotic. Talk about a troubled Tyrael gives more weight to this idea. I don't think Tyrael will be corrupted like some have said. I think Tyrael will defy Heaven to protect sanctuary. Tyrael will ally with humans against both heaven and hell.

So if demons bleed black, what color is angel blood?

[Justa]

dunno about the colour but if it bleeds, we get to kill it :thumbup:

[Swiffer]

Eh? It isn't Diablo without Diablo!

Gotta read it in context, and it is less alarming.


Where we start off in Diablo III, it’s twenty years later (after Diablo II: Lord of Destruction) and the brothers are gone, they’ve been vanquished.

When you start the game, Diablo and his brothers are gone. That doesn't mean they are going to stay gone ;)

[PlagueBearer]

If the three Prime Evils were overthrown by two Lesser Evils then frankly I don't think Diablo, Baal and Mephi deserve the title of "Prime Evil"

The prime evils are evils man wreaks upon one another, while the lesser evils are those visited upon man by nature. Belial is thus a Prime Evil, though his function as the Lord of Lies allowed him to disguise this fact.

[Swiffer]

The Prime Evils were originally overthrown by all the lesser evils. Azmodan and Belial led the campaign, but Duriel, Andarial and forces of hell loyal to the lesser evils all banded together to toss the Prime Evils out. Duriel and Andarial later switched allegiances upon Diablos first return (Diablo 1).

Duriel was left in the Tomb of Tal Rasha to face the adventurers chasing Diablo as punishment for his role in the banishment of the prime evils.

[GuardianHadriel]

If the three Prime Evils were overthrown by two Lesser Evils then frankly I don't think Diablo, Baal and Mephi deserve the title of "Prime Evil"
how dumb are you?! can´t you see that it was´nt azmodan and belial in person who fought against the threee, they commanded hordes of demons too banish the primes...you can even read somewhere in the sin war books that the three defeated a third of hells demons in thier banishment... so don´t call them weak!

[ZSiegfried]

how dumb are you?! can´t you see that it was´nt azmodan and belial in person who fought against the threee, they commanded hordes of demons too banish the primes...you can even read somewhere in the sin war books that the three defeated a third of hells demons in thier banishment... so don´t call them weak!

Relax my man... I'm glad someone is coming up for them bad boys BUT to make your case even stronger as far as I am aware, the Primes weren't really overthrown. It was part of their plan to get banished to Santuary (I'm thinking Sin War pack stopped them from just going there anytime). The real question is was Azmodan and Belial in on the deal or where they used as pawns?

[Lynchgrinch]

Hmmm interesting question. I think that belial and azmodan aren't in on the three's plan. I think the plan has some "brothers only" sign writen on it and the lessers are excluded from it. The plan is bound to be something very intricate, and when we se it come to life in D3 we will all be blown away. Whats to say Belial and Azmo don't have another wee plan going on too? who can say what that will be though? i mean the lesser evils were never realy a match for the three, right? GuardianHadriel made a good point about the three defeating a 3rd of the hoast of hell...bible analogy anyone? if not it just shows how awesome they're strength is.

[Zeek]

I thought that since Andariel and Duriel were working with the three that we were supposed to assume the lesser evils were always in on the plans. I don't think there was ever really any unrest between the prime evils and the lesser evils. However, the unrest over who rules hell while they're away may have been real.

[ZSiegfried]

However, the unrest over who rules hell while they're away may have been real.

That, my friend, is an excellent theory! I agree...

[Joepa]

I don't know if Diablo is still alive in D3, but Belial did not pose as diablo and *die.* If the demons can die and still be alive after being killed in hell then maybe he did pose as diablo, but Belial is still alive in D3 because Jay said that he's in act 2. My point is Belial was not Diablo in D2 even tho diablo seemed weak cuz he was easy fight.... Anyways I think the only way they can put Belial in is that he posed as a main character whether it be Cain, Tyrael, or some other main character (Wirt.)

[nurman]

I don't know if Diablo is still alive in D3, but Belial did not pose as diablo and *die.* If the demons can die and still be alive after being killed in hell then maybe he did pose as diablo, but Belial is still alive in D3 because Jay said that he's in act 2. My point is Belial was not Diablo in D2 even tho diablo seemed weak cuz he was easy fight.... Anyways I think the only way they can put Belial in is that he posed as a main character whether it be Cain, Tyrael, or some other main character (Wirt.)

Nice necro and ofc he is in the game.
Thats why we buy it and it is named Diablo 3!

What game does not have something it's name doesn't say?
(Mgs3 isn't a viable option :D)

[KnightofChance]

I think it would be more likely that beliel would pose as tyreal than diablo. If posing as diablo, he would be pursued and attacked. as tyreal, he can gain the trust of the mortals.

Plus, beliel and azmadon wanted the primes dead (we assume), so then tyreal sending you after them could have been a horrible trap.