Weapon mod questions regarding fury

[The Son Of Disaster]

I'm going to try and keep my questions as simple as I can here, but I've got a few regarding some of the higher end PvP weapons available.

To start it off, I'm building a Rabies/Fury PvP Druid.

1. Death Cleaver, what kind of IAS is needed to hit 5 fpa. is it 55% or 60%? The calc isn't working cause my pop-up blocker hates me/it.

2. Providing Death Cleaver can reach 5 fps with a 40/15 jewel it is almost certainly better than an EBotdZ IMO, will definately have to test though. Even if it needs to be Shael'd I still think it would be better.

3. In regards to -% Enemy Defense on weapons like Death Cleaver and Eth'd Weaps, does this work like Conviction does, because from what I heard Conviction works like this; it subtracts the % Enemy Defense, but if they have a skill like Defiance, or Shout it will just take the % bonus away.

4. If weapon -%EnemyD works differently then conviction (simply takes away from there total final defense) then would it be more beneficial to insert an Eth Run or 2 into a Rare. My logic is, most commonly Lo runes are put in, which are very good no doubt. But if say it comes down to 2x Eth vs. 2x Lo,
2x Eth = -50% Enemy Defense, which = me hitting twice as much, which is double damage consistantly, because it doubles the amount of hits i land (logically) vs. 40% Deadly strike which is double damage less than half the time.

Just some things I was thinking, question #4 is pretty much worthless if -%enemydef isnt effective.

[Antonio]

3. http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=407279 check rtb's post

[The Son Of Disaster]

Tyvm sir :)
that just makes #4 more debatable to me

opinions there?

[Verashiden]

Shaeled DC will hit 9/5 Fury.

[The Son Of Disaster]

Thanks rashi good to know. :)

I haven't used a shifter in PvP, in fact little to no PvP experience, but I've got most of my Fury/Rabies gear but cant get my heart set on a final weapon, now i know there are a few switches but ill post my thoughts:

Primary 1 hander choices:
EBotD Zerk 5fps
Death Cleaver Shael'd 5fps
Fury Fanged Knife 6fps
Rare Fanged Knife 75 IAS 5fps
Griz Caddy 85IAS 4fps

Rare Javelins? Not sure if there are any non-zon-exclusive -30 javelins, but some rares with quickness could be gg at 5fps perhaps, i believe these get teh dex bonus like a fanged does. lack of sockets here, but higher base damage may make up for it. just had the idea please shoot it down thoroughly if its bad :)

2 handers:
etomb 90 ias 4fps
doom gpa 6fps
ebotd archon 5fps

please also correct any of my fps on these weapons i know some but others was unsure of. also no clues on the first swipe of furys frame, ie X/5 fps

[Verashiden]

Off the top of my head, in order:

9/5
9/5
9/6
8/5
7/4

7/4
9/6
9/5

Caddy is too weak for Fury and the faster franes don't make up for it.Rare Fanged is great for Zealers and other melee combat. However, the range is of concern against Barbs and Smiters. Zerker has range 3 but poor average damage.

Etomb for two hander. You shouldn't have room for another one >.>.

[PacoQuerak]

I have heard bad things about fury flanged. I find griz extremly useful vs zons lol. I tend to think since griz does scimilar damage and is faster (though fury has lower min and mass open wounds) I would preffer griz by a lot. Ceilingcat gave me a bad report on fury too, he said it was totaly useless lol. He is probobly best melee only druid on tah east ladder, i value his opinion. Also i here that griz outpreforms ccsq.

[The Son Of Disaster]

Well when i was going through stash space it came down to room for either CTA or Doom and i chose doom but may change my mind, or i may have forgot something.

So what should I use as primary 1h? Shael DC? The nice thing about the fanged is the bonus from dex.
question on that:
is it 1 str = 1% ED and 1 dex = 1% ED? or is it like 1=.75%/1=.75%?

still curious on the jav idea too lol

[Verashiden]

I don't think there's any javs in existence that could top any of the choices listed above.

Personally, I'd use EBotDZ. DC isn't bad either. Or you can be a conformist and use Grief PB >.>.

[The Son Of Disaster]

Well I got a perf ebotdz the other day for a good price so ill be using that until i come up with better i guess.

no range 3 1h weps that hit 5 fps with good avg dmg? :)

[PacoQuerak]

The only reason you would want grief is for fights with other melee which doesn't really exist unless you enter melee duels. Whenever i see a zealer in a pub duel even if they have exile it is such a rediculous stomp down they either give up or start trying to smite me (Extremely annoying).

[The Son Of Disaster]

yeah more and more i lean away from greif, the only thing that makes me curious is the -25% psn res. if i did the flash move, would that make it -100%? or does grief not stick when flash happens? thus staying at -75%

[Verashiden]

Grief's -res won't stack.

[The Son Of Disaster]

alright well that then leaves me to:

EBotDZ
DC Shaeld
Rare fanged

rare fanged may just make a stash appearance as ill need more range vs ww and smite. I dont even have a rare fanged lol i have just heard really good things and am looking to buy one for cute fun if nothing else.

this is kind of a silly question, but does the actual weapon type itself have an impact on the speed aside from the (-30) - (20) base speeds?

cause from what i understand:
zerk is (10) base speed and with 60 IAS reaches 5fps
but fanged is (-20) base and requires 75%IAS to reach 5.

i may have the fanged knife base wrong, though

[PacoQuerak]

Your the one who told me cleglaws will fill up too much room and your a rabies druid. I would stick with ebotdz and flanged if you can get one. Unless of course you find that you like death better. I would stat to have max block with ebotdz + 1 raven + 1 angelic and wouldn't bother with anything else. If you really want some utility wep try doomz, nice for zons and such.

[The Son Of Disaster]

I just think theirs better things than clegs to use the space for.

The fact that I have switchs for all pieces of jewelery, belt, helm, and weps keeps me from statting around nearly everything -.-

If I chose a wep vs zons it'd be griz cad for certain. The speed wrecks them in a hurry.

My set-up is as follows, feel free to rate, critisize, complement, and suggest on it.

Jalal's Mane 7%FHR/15%Res Jewel
Bramble Archon Plate
EBotDZ (or w/e I finally decide on)
Stormshield what should I socket here? Ber, Cham, Nice Jewel?
Trang-Oul's Claws
Verdungo's
Gore Rider's
Angelic Jewelery
9x SS Lifers
10x AR/Lifer SCs
Torch/Anni

Switch:
Dweb 20life/15 res jewel
Monarch 15/15 psn 20/15 jewel

Stash:
ETomb Zod, 40/15,15/15
Enigma Archon
24% FHR 10% OW Lifer Belt w/ Res'
30 FRW Tri Res 25% psn length red rare boot
Crown of Ages BerBer
Circlet +2/30frw/2os somethin, still looking >.<
2x Ravenfrost
2x Wisps
Crafted Amulet similar situation with circ
Bloodfist
Highlords perhaps

this leaves some room if im not mistaken, about 10 spaces, for Doom GPa or speed/res scs. lmk what you think. main 1h wep still up for discussion lol

[PacoQuerak]

no fort? that is far superior than having extra weapons imo
Also t gods > whisp

Highlords is a absolute deffinate.
+3 ss +100 life ammy

You have no melee geared helm.

Draculs is pretty nice vs windies, smiters, hammers... so are trangs tho

You should also invest in 5 5/5 level poison jewels, they are reallllly cheap i got mine for 2 hrs

no such thing as the blood belt you described i don't think.

Stormshield well... If you do 86 fhr go with a dex jewel, if you do 42 fhr go shael.

Look up speed of rabies on doom gpa or gt, if gt is faster with rabies (it's slightly faster on fury) then deffinatly go with gt.

goodnight

[The Son Of Disaster]

I'd simply never use it. In FvF duels where Rabies isn't permitted, fort wont save me. and otherwise Rabies will balance the duel IMO. Not worth it for that small % of duels ill face mostly pub dueling.

I dont know that Doom is the way to go either since its pretty much smiter/windy control.

Other option I see are some res/speed scs

[PacoQuerak]

I'd simply never use it. In FvF duels where Rabies isn't permitted, fort wont save me. and otherwise Rabies will balance the duel IMO. Not worth it for that small % of duels ill face mostly pub dueling.

I dont know that Doom is the way to go either since its pretty much smiter/windy control.

Other option I see are some res/speed scs

no, it does nothing vs windies, it is useful for synching hammers tho, either way i would rather use e-tomb. Fort is the answer to people who drink poison potions : /

Fort will save you in fury v fury duels lol, you just will get tore up cuz of ar lifers more than anything, though you stand a good chance. Res/speed scs are crucial.

Also doom is mass useful for anyone who runs away, if you use it and rabies a zon + flash switch = death + easy tag

[The Son Of Disaster]

i feel like i had a really good reason for doom vs windyies but now i have no idea why i thought that. doh

will consider fort. I think a fury pelt in its place would be justified. provides more damage also, but can give a very VERY significant boost to AR.

[PacoQuerak]

cerebus > than any fury visionary pelt except mabee a perfect one which would be worth such an insane price. A rabies pelt however with 2 poison dies in it would be freakin sick.

[The Son Of Disaster]

well a 2/3fury visionary with 2os wins already in my book. and it could spawn with lycan, rabies, base life,

blood belts can have 24fhr 10ow and up to 80 life...

dracs are bm i know so is doom, but doom helps alot more than dracs, if im bmin im goin all in. however iv decided against the doom.

might ber the ss, i am going 86fhr, ber means with nigma i wouldnt need dungos on and could put on my big life belt vs casters and the like.

[PacoQuerak]

If you are using damage reduction you should have 50. No way in hell does a +5 fury pelt with no other mods = > cerebus. Infact even if you has a 2 socketed visionary +6 fury pelt it's pretty darn close, the only reason i would want that over cerebus is it's ability to carry 2 bers in it so you could get max dr if you prebuffed with treachery. Cerebus 33% open wounds is going to do insane more damage than an extra 1 or even 2 extra to fury. Why is everyone so down on cerebus? 33% open wounds is a very very very... VERY good mod.
The bonus to ar on cerebus is higher than visionary can possibly be.

ITS GODLY DAMMIT

Also, in case you didn't realize dual whisps is very bm. As far as i am concerned draculs is only bm in melee duels, people who say it is bm are clearly not realizing you are a melee charecter and they are a caster... THEY CAN TELEPORT.

Check it, if you have draculs + cerebus + gore riders you get 68 open wounds, so every 2 out of 3 attacks you do an additional 2200 damage...

READ MY LIPS GODLY (you will be hitting 42 fhr if you use this most likely btw, same if you wear a +5 fury (bad unless extremly godly imo)

PLUS PLUS unlike other helms it will add to your rabies attack! and make it easier to hit godly defense barbs and paladins with rabies! GODLY, seriously it's really good and if you can make up for what you lose out on from jalals and don't need resistance then it will be more effective than jalals. Imo losing a fhr breakpoint is < than having more damage and better ability to hit.

[Verashiden]

The difference isn't really that big between fools and Cerebrus AR wise. I'm too tired to address your other points right now. I'll see how I feel in the morning.

[The Son Of Disaster]

Is OW not affected by PvP penalty or DR? cause IIRC it comes out to be about ~500 dmg. so im betting its pvp pen but not dr.

I never said Cerebus is bad, in fact I think it is a great helm, just for the needs it seems that a really gg pelt could top it. I'll prolly have a cere on hand in fact since I have no such pelt currently. The mere ability to add a solid portion of life is what sells me on the pelt though, can spawn with base life +20-40 form jewels.

how does 2x ber + treach buff = 50 dr?

Every time I've mentioned my using DR it has been at 50 if no ber in ss, then dungos would be on. if no ss, then coa/nigma/dungos on.

EDIT: This question never got answered and its buggin me:
this is kind of a silly question, but does the actual weapon type itself have an impact on the speed aside from the (-30) - (20) base speeds?

cause from what i understand:
zerk is (10) base speed and with 60 IAS reaches 5fps
but fanged is (-20) base and requires 75%IAS to reach 5.

i may have the fanged knife base wrong, though

[PacoQuerak]

You forgot, you have to invert the base speed. Positive is negative. Verashadin yu must need visionary. This +6 fury pelt wold do more damage t hammers and with visionary mod wou;d hit bettert too.

[Verashiden]

Yes, Visionary -_-

Disaster: Each weapon has a different speed table, hence why some hit frames even when slower.

[Queen Mebd]

Is OW not affected by PvP penalty or DR? cause IIRC it comes out to be about ~500 dmg. so im betting its pvp pen but not dr.

Open wounds has two different modifiers which reduce it's overall effectiveness against other players; one for melee and another for ranged attacks. Take a gander at this: http://strategy.diabloii.net/news.php?id=551#Open%20Wounds.

As the SC notes, open wounds is a negative life regeneration, hence it has it's own modifiers and as such doesn't get reduced by pdr if memory serves me right. Actually, the Strategy Compendium is so full of tables and formulas I think it's worth bookmarking for a handy reference.

You forgot, you have to invert the base speed. Positive is negative.

Good call. There are so many variables to plug in to the calc WIAS, SIAS, OIAS, etc. it's never a bad idea to run the numbers a couple times just to see if you get the same results and plugged everything in right.

[PacoQuerak]

Open wounds has two different modifiers which reduce it's overall effectiveness against other players; one for melee and another for ranged attacks. Take a gander at this: http://strategy.diabloii.net/news.php?id=551#Open%20Wounds.


For a general rule of thumb though doesn't OW do a bit better than 500 damage vs max dr i guess ishould look this up, but i feel like i shouldn't have to cuz i think i rememeber that as being what it was lol. Either way i know that it is good lol.

[The Son Of Disaster]

I thought I remembered it landing around 550 in the Barbs forum.

I knew basic speeds and frames weps could hit, i just wasnt sure why some make it and some dont, so that info helps quite a bit thanks to the 3 of you its all cleared up and i see the light.

and paco, I saw a post earlier today that you seemed to be discouraged for posting here, i dont mean to argue or anything, i just want to be proven wrong fully. i like a good discussion and you certainly provide that. however i think it nearly always takes more than 2 to handle a discussion cause otherwise its ones word vs the other, and who isnt biased when it comes to someone against their own opinions. i think you bring alot to the table and certainly have good points.

back to the open wounds topic, i think its an amazing mod/feature for any melee char. but the fact of the matter is, i dont see needing it every 2/3 hits, cause a WW barb will be "away" from the oponent for a moment, whereas we dont need to apply it nearly every attack, we hit often enough that itll certainly be reapplied before it wears off.

just my 2 cents at this point let me know if iv been misinformed or just think wrongly cause its common for me.

[KellKheraptis]

As far as OW is concerned, I think it was Ink who said that in the top top tier melee duels (using the term loosely, as from what I understand, the private leagues don't consider WW to be melee), 90% of them are decided by OW. Granted, I won't back that statement 100% by any means, but I do think it plays a big role, especially as one of my two main wolves is centered around a damage-over-time attack. A quick correction for you SoD : base speed of a zerker is 0, thus the needed 95% ias on a one handed weapon is easiest to remember on base 0 weapons (it's how I remembered it anyhow).

Also for the record, I'd take a godly eth upped crystal/dimensional 4 fpa <enter sick set of mods here to almost hit Grief damage> anyday over a Grief, for the sheer speed of it alone. Call me an old fart, but I bloody liked my Cruels from 09! Also, with the bugged nature of Fury, in the event you go through a useless client side animation (aka the miss bug), you'll be out of it at least 5 frames faster, and possibly 6 or 7, depending on the "regular" 5 fpa fury weapon in comparison/question, and any possible issues with AR will be a thing of the past with either of Fool's or Master's. The only downside would be the range and lack of deadly strike, but at a listed screen damage of 6k-9k (conservative estimate), that's still effectively 9k-13.5k one handed damage with Highlord's and Gore's on. Pretty friggin' awesome in my book :D

[The Son Of Disaster]

Oh I totally like the PB idea, just not planning on the ability of affording one soon :/

I thought a Pb couldnt hit 4fpa unless 85 ias?

[KellKheraptis]

Oh I totally like the PB idea, just not planning on the ability of affording one soon :/

I thought a Pb couldnt hit 4fpa unless 85 ias?

Cruel+Fool's/Master's+Mechanic's Phase Blade of Quickness+Slaughter+Simplicity

30 Base + 40 Quickness = 70 out of 95 needed. Two IAS jewels (ED preferably) gets the 7/4 breakpoint, and 2 shaels I believe gets the 6/4. Now imagine if in the next patch they open up Artisan's and/or Jeweler's to rares...add 40% Deadly Strike to that equation. Or, similar mods on an eth zerker, with more ED than EBotD, and 20% DS. Smexi!

[AxlStrife]

Cruel+Fool's/Master's+Mechanic's Phase Blade of Quickness+Slaughter+Simplicity

30 Base + 40 Quickness = 70 out of 95 needed. Two IAS jewels (ED preferably) gets the 7/4 breakpoint, and 2 shaels I believe gets the 6/4. Now imagine if in the next patch they open up Artisan's and/or Jeweler's to rares...add 40% Deadly Strike to that equation. Or, similar mods on an eth zerker, with more ED than EBotD, and 20% DS. Smexi!

If you ever find anything like that, you will be a god amongst giants. Can all that even spawn!?

[KellKheraptis]

If you ever find anything like that, you will be a god amongst giants. Can all that even spawn!?

3 Prefixes, 3 Suffixes. Standard rare item fare :) And only a god among giants if it's an ethereal crystal sword or dimensional blade so it can be upped to an indestructible phase blade ;)

And with any luck, it will be the same day I manage to get the character name Fenrir and/or Garm, who were gods amongst giants.

[AxlStrife]

3 Prefixes, 3 Suffixes. Standard rare item fare :) And only a god among giants if it's an ethereal crystal sword or dimensional blade so it can be upped to an indestructible phase blade ;)

And with any luck, it will be the same day I manage to get the character name Fenrir and/or Garm, who were gods amongst giants.

I thought some prefixes/suffixes couldn't spawn with each other.

Fenrir/Fenris, being a giant wolf and all, will probably always be taken by Day 1 of Ladder.

[KellKheraptis]

I thought some prefixes/suffixes couldn't spawn with each other.

Fenrir/Fenris, being a giant wolf and all, will probably always be taken by Day 1 of Ladder.

Same family prefixes and suffixes, yes. Cruel is the top of straight ED, where as Master's is 2nd from the top of the ED/AR tree. Fool's is dam/level, while Slaughter is a straight number. All are different trees, and can spawn together :) Just the odds of them doing so on the one weapon that a shifter can use are so astronomically slim, chances are some random hammerdin will get it and charsi it before we can even get overcharged on it.

And yeah...Fenris/Fenrir and Garm are probably also level 1 characters sitting on someone's botted account. Sad to see two of the best wolf names rotting, but hey, I got Ulfhednar at least, and Brachyurus (the primordial animal wolves came from).

[PacoQuerak]

If it were trualy the best sword it would have 5% chance to cast level 1 amp damage : D

[The Son Of Disaster]

amp is bm though id rather have more effective ed or ed/ar. that phaseblade would be nuts just the same though, man.

[AxlStrife]

I wonder what color that weapon would be. And agreed about the conspiring hammerdins, always taking everyone's goods. *tries to sneak into Blizzards to fix the Concentration bug*

Anyway, BM is the new GM so if it procs in pubs "oh well". Everyone else is stack/sorbing, aa, tmc, etc. so what's a little amp?

[KellKheraptis]

I wonder what color that weapon would be. And agreed about the conspiring hammerdins, always taking everyone's goods. *tries to sneak into Blizzards to fix the Concentration bug*

Anyway, BM is the new GM so if it procs in pubs "oh well". Everyone else is stack/sorbing, aa, tmc, etc. so what's a little amp?

My sentiments exactly. And wtf is up with that, anyhow...Lancers (heh, anyone remember classic?) want range 5 and the damage of EBotD, anyone with an act 2 merc wants either CtC or an aura on their merc stick, yet for the price of a crappy 3 socket ETomb, I could gear an account of viable pvm characters or a very nice hammerdin. This tells me that for such a niche weapon to be priced so high, a LOT of people got their class-spec shields handed to em with the arm still attached to the shield...

[AxlStrife]

My sentiments exactly. And wtf is up with that, anyhow...Lancers (heh, anyone remember classic?) want range 5 and the damage of EBotD, anyone with an act 2 merc wants either CtC or an aura on their merc stick, yet for the price of a crappy 3 socket ETomb, I could gear an account of viable pvm characters or a very nice hammerdin. This tells me that for such a niche weapon to be priced so high, a LOT of people got their class-spec shields handed to em with the arm still attached to the shield...

LOL indeed. Dupes run so rampant, hence why I've laxed on D2 (working on my FC druid, not even mfing anymore) and playing Rappelz atm. At least there I'm sure the items won't poof.

[PacoQuerak]

There is no rule that says chance to amp is bm.

[The Son Of Disaster]

yeah dupes suck, cause its not even exciting or worthwhile to find a high rune anymore. unless you socket trophy items with self found high runes.

whats a good number for ow to shoot for? i have a belt with 10 and gores. dont wanna use dracs really. cere is an idea or a secondary wep?

[AxlStrife]

Well, if you go Cerberus you'll have to make up your fhr, res elsewhere (Bloodfist, SS should help). It does have really good OW and AR bonus. I wonder if 53% would be overkill.

What's your gear setup looking like?

[The Son Of Disaster]

General Gear is:

Jalals 7%FHR/15% Res
Bramble Archon
EBotDZ
SS unsure of socket
Trangs Claws
Verdungo's
GoreRiders
Angelics

9x SS Lifers
10x AR/Lifers
Torch/Anni
dweb/20/20 switch

Stash
Enigma AP
Etomb 40/15,15/15, Zod
Rare tri-res boots
crafted ow life belt with 24fhr
2x Ravens
2x Wisps
Rare circlet if I can find
CoA
High Lords and/or crafted druid ammy with life/frw/res or something

looking into BFist, Cere, Fort, Fury Pelt, Res/Speed SCs, Doom GPA, I have some space left for a small mix of some of these