Poison stacking in 1.11 (dagger)

[Afflicted]

Can someone confirm for me how poison damage stacks in the latest version of the game? I've read the Tao of Poison and it appears to be archived cos it's no longer relevant. How does poison damage and duration stack now? The only guide for a poison dagger mancer I can find uses info from the outdated Tao of Poison.

[NumtyDoo]

I don't think that anyone uses poison dagger anymore. Poison nova does less damage per application, but does more damage per second, can be applied to multiple monsters, and can be applied at range. Since you don't need a dagger for nova, you can use "blackhand key", which makes your poison damage insanely more effective. I personally have not tried a dagger mancer recently, but I have seen a few posts on this, and it appears that poison dagger is no longer what it used to be.

[Mad Mantis]

When I have a bit more time, I'll dig around and see if I can get a clear post on that subject. This info is scattered over the board and the search function doesn't seem to work as well as I like.

[Afflicted]

Mantis: Thanks, I'm eagerly waiting for you. While I realise that PD isn't the most practical of skills, I would like to try a different gameplay option. At the same time, an explaination of how PD really works with other sources of poison is important since the build isn't cookie cutter in the first place.

[Sixstringer]

Though I've not tested poison stacking, I have presumed that the traditional formula for poison calculation still works, which, without going full into the math, essentially combines the damage per frame from poison dagger and other poison items. It then deals that combined damage per from for a duration that includes the listed PD duration + an average of the durations on other items. (So, if you have any +poison damage over X seconds items, your PD strike will last longer than the duration listed on the PD skill). This formula has been reiterated often, so, again, I presume it to be correct.

I have 4 daggermancers going right now with variant builds, including a low-level hardcore daggermancer, a lvl 40 summon hybrid and a lvl90, Trang-wearing daggermancer that I love. In single player dagger is a blast, DV everything and stab away, with the underrated poison explosion as a mass killer in dungeons or wherever foes congregate. I use PN and CE more frequently in multiplayer games because the extended duration of PD is impractical when playing with others. Against bosses in both single and party play, Trangs and PD is a nice combo thanks to the extended duration of PD. Cast LR, which has a looong duration, and strike with PD. While your dagger damage is eating away at the boss, cast Fire Wall after Fire Wall, which also gets a boost from your LR. Will you kill as fast as a Hammerdin? Of course not. But then, if that's what you wanted you wouldn't be investigating PD.

[Afflicted]

Numtydoo: Thanks for the input. It's easy to see why PN is so much more popular than PD from your post.

Sixstringer: Due to impatience, I tested poison dagger using an editor for an assortment of sources of poison damage - I came to the same conclusion (that is, damage per frame is combined then duration = PD duration + average durations from other items).

You're using a PD guy with the full Trang's set? *drooooooooool* How many points would you think I need in Dim vision? DV seems to work best, but I'm not sure how much should go into it.

[Sixstringer]

My DV lvl 18, which I think is 10 hard points plus boosts from + skills. Needs to be in the mid to upper teens in hell because of curse duration reduction. I think I ran with about 6 points in normal, 12 or so in nightmare. Radius, of course, increases at those levels too and will blind everything on your screen.

Trangs is really great for a daggermancer. Good boost to resists, able to max block with Trangs wing, the cool "walk at run speed" which allows you to have your max block percentage while moving fast, the +25/-25 boost to your poison damage, and the bonus fire skills give an option for taking on the poison immunes. My daggermancer uses blackbog's as his primary wep and has gore riders for some CB during boss runs. Only thing I'm missing right now is some venom charges from an item. I have Andy's Visage, but it's impractical to swap out helms every time you need some venom.

[Afflicted]

sixstringer: Hrm... I think you shouldn't bother with venom damage. According to my calculations it's not worth it.

---------

Trang's Claws
+25% Poison skill damage

Trang-Oul's Wing
+2 To Poison And Bone Skills (Necromancer Only) (already included)
-25% To Enemy Poison Resistance (3 Items) (this can be ignored cause it'll affect both with and without andy's equally)

--------

Assuming full synergies,
PD Skill Level with Trang's: 25
Poison Damage: 8095-8543 over 11.6 seconds
or 698-736 per second (717 average)

Blackbog's Sharp:
+488 Poison Damage Over 10 Seconds
or 48.8 per second

Level 3 Venom - 90-100 over 0.4 seconds
or 225-250 per second (237.5 average)

With Trang's set
Duration = 11.6 + 10 = 21.6 seconds
Damage per second (with Trang's claw bonus) = 717*1.25 + 48.8 = 945.05
Damage = 945.05*21.6 = 20413

With Andy's shifted in to cast Venom, then put on Trang's helm again,
Duration = 11.6 + (10+0.4)/2 = 16.8 seconds
Damage per second (with Trang's claw bonus) = 717*1.25 + 48.8 + 237.5*1.25 = 1242
Damage = 1242*16.8 = 20865

If you include other sources of +Necro skills so that PD level increases, you're more and more better off not including Andy's Visage. The deciding factor is in fact Blackbog's Sharp - the additional duration is the key issue. Venom waters it down too much. Bramble is another issue however...

BTW, what do you think of confusion instead of Dim Vision? It lasts longer and they'll busy themselves whacking each other while you poison the lot of them... general chaos. :D

-------------

Edit: More calculations, cos I'm a sucker for punishment! This is how I calculated the max damage possible with gear I'll never find in a million years. >.<


Trang's Claws
+ 25% poison skills

Bramble: + 50% poison skills

Trang-Oul's Wing
+2 To Poison And Bone Skills (Necromancer Only) (already included)
- 25% To Enemy Poison Resistance (3 Items) (this can be ignored cause it'll affect both with and without andy's equally)

Necromancer's Noxious Rare Circlet: +2 to Necromancer Skill Levels, +2 Necromancer Poison and Bone Spells

Necromancer's Noxious Amulet: +2 to Necromancer Skill Levels, +2 Necromancer Poison and Bone Spells

Stones of Jordanx2: (+1 to All Skills)X2

Annihilus charm: +1 to Allskills

Hellfire Torch: +3 to Necromancer Skills

Blackbog's Sharp: +5 To Poison Dagger (Necromancer Only)

Fungal charmsX9: (+1 to Poison and bone spells) X9

PD level = 50

-----------------

Assuming full synergies,
PD Skill Level with Trang's: 50
Poison Damage: 39411-40246 over 21.6 seconds
or 1824.6-1863.2 per second (1843.9 average)
WIth Trang's claw bonus = 2304.9 per second
WIth Trang's claw bonus AND Bramble = 3226.8 per second

Blackbog's Sharp:
+488 Poison Damage Over 10 Seconds
or 48.8 per second

Venom level = 15 + 2 (SoJs) = 17

Level 15 Venom - 350-370 over 0.4 seconds
or 875-925 per second (900 average)
With Trang's claw bonus = 1125 per second
WIth Trang's claw bonus AND Bramble = 1575 per second

--------------

With Bramble,

Duration = 21.6 + 10 = 31.6 seconds
Damage per second (with Trang's claw bonus) = 3226.8 + 48.8 = 3275.6
Damage = 3275.6*31.6 = 103509


With 15 venom from treachery then bramble shifted in again,

Duration = 21.6 + (10+0.4)/2 = 26.8 seconds
Damage per second (with Trang's claw bonus) = 3226.8 + 48.8 + 1575 = 4850.6
Damage = 4850.6*26.8 = 129996

This doesn't include how much extra damage is inflicted due to lowered enemy resistances via Trang's Wing and the Lower Resistance curse. (That would be a moot point since some enemies have *positive* resistances. And what level would LR be anyway?) Of course, what chance of switching in Treachery, getting the Venom to proc, then switching Bramble back in WHEN YOU HAVE AN INVENTORY FULL OF CHARMS. :P

[Sixstringer]

Heh . . . 129,000+ damage is pretty cool. Dare to dream . . .

I sort of disagree with your conclusion, though.

With Trang's set
Duration = 11.6 + 10 = 21.6 seconds
Damage per second (with Trang's claw bonus) = 717*1.25 + 48.8 = 945.05
Damage = 945.05*21.6 = 20413

With Andy's shifted in to cast Venom, then put on Trang's helm again,
Duration = 11.6 + (10+0.4)/2 = 16.8 seconds
Damage per second (with Trang's claw bonus) = 717*1.25 + 48.8 + 237.5*1.25 = 1242
Damage = 1242*16.8 = 20865

If you include other sources of +Necro skills so that PD level increases, you're more and more better off not including Andy's Visage. The deciding factor is in fact Blackbog's Sharp - the additional duration is the key issue. Venom waters it down too much.

In most situations, I think Venom's reduction of overall duration for poison damage is a bonus. You get a higher damage per frame which means faster kills. You might want a looong duration against bosses, but by your calculations, the addition of Venom gives you slightly more damage over a shorter duration. Seems to be a good thing to me.

I think I've read somewhere that Bramble is better than Treachery when you have poison damage charms, but Treachery wins otherwise. Don't have a Lem rune ATM (or the runes for bramble, for that matter), so it's sort of a moot point for me. Obviously, gear choices would be much different if you're going for Treachery or Andy's as a focus of the build, and what you say is true: I'd want some way of making up for the +to skills afforded by full Trangs. That would be doable, I think, but again, I'm too poor for the Bramble or Treachery build right now.

As to the issue on Confusion and DV, I think either works. I know Darnopcdx, in his daggermancer guide (which really spurred me on to my many PD characters), says Confusion is his curse of choice. Just remember, with confusion, enemies attack the closest thing, which might be you :)

[runesteel]

If you have the $$$ to create a good nec build, a better alternative to Treachery is to use a "Grief" phase blade on your switch, which has the same CTC lvl 15 Venom as treachery, but leaves your armor slot open for Bramble.

[Darker Realm]

I agree with runesteel. Grief is a really good way to cast Venom (CtC on Strike rather than CtC after being hit by monsters). An alternative to having to exchange weapons is carrying the Treachery in your Horadric Cube, and bringing the Cube with you.

[onderduiker]

I agree with runesteel. Grief is a really good way to cast Venom (CtC on Strike rather than CtC after being hit by monsters). An alternative to having to exchange weapons is carrying the Treachery in your Horadric Cube, and bringing the Cube with you.
Treachery 'ShaelThulLem' armour has 25% Chance to Cast Level 15 Venom on Striking; Dragon 'SurLoSol' armour or shield has 20% Chance to Cast Level 18 Venom When Struck.

This thread is almost a year old but, for anybody else who reads this now or stumbles across it later after searching, the information and links within the more recent Poison Skills Information (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=712653) thread should be useful.