Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

[mephistophilis]

I use JSP and too many people on this site do not know how to build a proper summoner. Here is my guide on jsp. Enjoy


http://battle.net/images/battle/diablo2exp/images/classes/necromancer.jpg

Hello Dear Reader,

Many of you have followed my progress in writing summoner guides. I have to say, some of your feedback has caused me to lose sleep trying to see if it helps or hurts the build. Thank you for that, honestly. If it wasn’t for that criticism, I wouldn’t be able to present you with this set up I am today. The evolution of the Summoner Necro has gone on for a long time. The main issue is, is this character a Caster or not and how should we plan his gear accordingly?

Please read on to realize exactly what kind of character I have envisioned the summoner necro to be. Feel free to debate me, but overall, its going to be awfully hard to prove me wrong. Do not post ignorant bull. It ruins the thread and makes you look like a jerk. Please read through the guide in its entirety before judging and please rationalize your points and bring an argument backed by facts to the table so we (including myself) can be educated on a point I may have not touched.

I want to thank everyone's great feedback and I see a lot of my interpretation of the Summoner all over East so I can’t wait for everyone to test out this build. Now you will truly be privy to the maximum potential of a summoner. I said that before, now I mean it ;)

Regards,

Mephistophilis

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Introduction

My Summoner is a caster. That means he is built for speed not for comfort (yes that is a Vinny Vaughn reference). I play East Hardcore with this build and it has two major attributes: first is its proximity to danger and second is its ability to maneuver fast and stay alive for the duration. There are two distinct (potential) draw backs people bring up in regard to this build: kill speed and character involvement; be prepared to leave those traits at home. Not only is this build fast and active, it is also very versatile, lots of fun, very effective, and uniquely useful. I will go over all the key points to build and play this character.

There is much dispute over the Summoner’s merc and golem choices. In the past, I have said repeatedly that Might and Concentration do not do enough damage to justify their use. Now I am going to show you why and what to use in their place.
This is the most effective pvm build for all around play in the game. It is the only character who can do EVERYTHING with only 1 set of gear. Many people say smiters, but smiters can’t run their own baal games and solo ubers with only 1 gear set. Hammerdins can’t either. They require gear changes to run different types of games. If you are like me and want to focus on a good character for climbing the ladder and be effective in every playing situation with only 1 character, my summoner build is for you. I encourage challenges as I have the answers to your questions so post away.

Leveling

This section is important because no matter which method you use to level your summoner, your help is of tremendous value.

Path 1 Uber-trist: Clearly the most efficient way to level. Get glitch (or classic) rushed to hell act 5. Whip out your +1 bonewall wand and you have become the star of the show in ubers because you are now the only useful leecher with your capacity to use bonewall for the duration of the uber leveling service.

Path 2 Chaos: So you don't know enough of the right people to run uber-trist and you're forced to chaos. No worries, you are still a very well liked build for chaos games. No other low level character can use corpse explosion(c/e) or cast amp damage/lower resist. Whoever is chaosing you will appreciate the help in killing waves of monsters with your curses and c/e.

Path 3 Regular: So you really have no friends and nothing to trade for a glitch rush or classic rush. Well you have just become the best friend of the newbies. Tristing, tombing, cowing, normal and nightmare baaling all benefit greatly from the summoners’ curses and corpse explosion. I will not address gear to use for this method of leveling, but overall, you can use pretty much any old crap because you stay at a distance of harm and don't require any gear with skills because for leveling, corpse explosion and casting is already maxed as far as damage goes at just level 1. (I only recommend this or Ubers for Hardcore; there are too many risks in chaos)

Gear

I have updated my guide to incorporate the “Rich Man’s Plan,” the “Middle Class Man’s Plan,” & the “Pure Man’s Plan” (no Leet Runewords—Only used for the people who do not enjoy LoD the way most of us do).It is important to note however that both the first two plans require a couple rather expensive rune-words.
Enigma and Faith are absolutely required to build this Necro in an effective manner. I would not even consider beginning to build this summoner without these two rune-words because he will not be able to teleport and your skeletons will not have the enhanced damage and attack speed to be useful in a timely manner. Also, you will not under any circumstances be able to run baal games or Uber-trist.
Also, don’t forget you will need Infinity now. This is expensive as well so bear that cost in the back of your mind.

If you so choose to skip the runewords, You want to follow my traditional gear selection outlined last for those of you who have sworn off duped runes.

Rich Man's Gear

The Gear Listed First is the Rich Man’s Gear. While you may notice this gear is not nearly as expensive as many classes, you also have to realize that many of the items are extremely difficult to find. There aren’t going to be many people who can afford a 20% FCR amulet, so you will need to make arrangements and I have pointed out where you can substitute even for the rich plan.

Helm: Shako (Socketed with +9 Str/30 Fire res Jewel) [Alternative: If you cant get a 2/20 Ammy, rock a 2/20 Circlet and get a +3 Summons or +2 Necro Ammy with Mods]

Armor: Enigma is only choice.

Amulet: 2 Necro (or Summons)/20 Faster Cast Rate/Strength if you can get it

Weapon: Carin Shard Wand (yep, doesn’t get more godly than this. Hoto doesn’t hold a candle to it. Slap a Str/Res jewel in it so you can wear spirit and you are golden)

Shield: Spirit (35% FCR is important for 125% FCR breakpoint)

Belt: Arach

Gloves: Magefists

Boots: War Travelers

Rings: 2x FCR/Strength/Mana/Resistance Rings

Swap:
Weapon-CTA
Shield- Lidless (if you have a str jewel in your wand to wear spirit, you cant hit 156 str on swap so rock lidless, or if you have enough strength, get a crappy spirit)

Inventory:
Torch and Anni (as close as perfect as you can get).
6 Summon lifers (Or just plain if you cant afford lifers)
1 FHR Sc (with a mod if you want. With Carin Shard and Spirit, you only need 1% fhr for breakpoint)
Res All scs as needed or Magic Find Charms if you don’t.

You will notice there is some open space in your inventory. You want that. This is pvm people, dont load up on charms... How are you supposed to pick up anything?

Mercenary:
Act 1 Fire Rogue (attacks at a distance, isn't in harm from Iron Maiden in Chaos, won't die in ubers)- You definately want fire though because if you get a cold, she will freeze corpses so you can't summon them.

Faith (very important) (Mine is Perfect 15 Fanaticism, 2 All Skills Hydra Bow)

Andys face or Giant skull (I use Giant Skull so she knocks enemies back and doesn’t get hit. Also, its good because it can get more Ias than Andys and you don’t need to ral it or put any other kind of 30 fire resist jewel in it.)

Bramble for Thorns. She doesnt get hit so she doesnt need the defense from Fort and with Faith her resistances will already be maxed out.
Note: Merc gear can really be anything but faith is a must for Fanaticism. The rest of the gear is to maximize your Merc’s potential so she can kill for you to summon when you have to.

Uber Gear for Merc- Faith (obviously), Bramble, KIRAS (she needs super boosted resistance otherwise she will die... alot)

Middle Class Man’s Gear (per ESCL Pricing)

I called this poor man's gear in my prior threads and people got bent out of shape. IN MY OPINION 110 FG for a character that can solo the entire game in a full game, and solo uber in a one person game is for the poor man; its a great price for such outcome. But, since there was mass outrage since everyone said a summoner could solo the game naked, I will rephrase to the middle class man. This build is for you guys who want the fruits of my build but can't necessarily afford my gear listed. Check it out....

Helm- Any 2 Necro/20 FCR Circ (people give them away on jsp if they have bad stats)-1 to 5 fg

Armor- Any old Low strength req. Enigma <30 Fg

Belt- Still gotta get Arach-20 Fg

Rings- 2 10% FCR Rings with resists Free-10 FG (for both)

Gloves- Magefists-Free to 2 FG

Amulet- +0-2 Necro Skills/10%+FCR- Free to 5 FG ( I got 1 for free the other day just to make sure this was plausible. PM a known Crafter; He has 1 for you I promise)

Boots- Junk War Travs-Free to 2 FG

Shield- Spirit Monarch >5fg

Weapon- Carin Shard Wand 1 FG

Merc Faith- >30 FG

Grand Total- >110 FG

What do you sacrifice by using Middle Class Mans gear- Skills; that just means slower kill time. I played with this gear for a week to make sure you could do everything I can do almost as good.Ubers are a little tough with the loss of skills and damage for your skeletons, but it is still doable.

Pure Man’s Gear

If you swear off runewords, you aren't going to be able to teleport as much as someone with nigma and you will need an act 2 merc for auras. Here you can wear max +skill gear since you don't need fcr. I'd use this.
Trangs armor
Carin Shard
Darkforce/Homunc/Boneflame
+3 Summons Ammy
+3 Summons Circlet
bks or sojs (if those are ok by you)
Any belt
Bloodfists
treks or Marrows

and on switch use Naj's Staff to teleport where essential

Your merc should wear some sort of polaxe to give him some damage. Maybe Hone Sundan for crushing blow for bosses
Also Andys Face and some sort of eth armor with resistance would be good as well.

Gear Closing Remarks
While a summoner can kill most everything bare-assed, it is also very fun to have a godly summoner. If you use the gear I laid out you will hit good breakpoints and skill levels. Just keep building and experimenting as you go and you will never get tired of your summoner.


Stats

Strength- 0 (if You didn’t get it on gear, put enough in to wear Spirit but with rich man’s gear you shouldn’t need to)
Dexterity- 0 Max Block isn't very important to a summoner but that is a style of play preference.
Vitality- Everything
Energy- 0

Skills

Poison and Bone Skills
Bone Armor-1
Teeth-1
Corpse Explosion-1
Bonewall-1+ (synergy for bone armor, could synergize if you wanted to) [I have 20 here for Hardcore. For softcore I do not suggest this as you don’t have to worry about dying]

Curses
Put 1 into every skill.
My last build I said do not put any into Dim Vision, Confuse or Attract. These are actually quite cool... play around with em.

Summon Skills
Skeleton Mastery-20
Raise Skeleton-20
Raise Skeletal Mage-1+ (I have 10 Here on Hardcore. I only did that this time since I am hardcore. Softcore doesn’t require mages in my opinion but they are useful)
Revive-1
Clay Golem-1
Iron Golem-1 He just gets defensive bonuses if you add here. Don’t really need.
Golem Mastery-20 (Life Synergy for Iron Golem)
Blood Golem-1+ (could do for syngergy) [I Would suggest maxing this. Don’t want infinity golem to die]
Summon Resist- 1+

{note: you could do anything you want with the skills I put as 1+. Play around with them. Honestly, each improves your game play some, but not substantially enough to make them 100% mandatory for ultimate build. It depends on how you play. If you want to live longer, perhaps max bone armor synergies. If you want your golem to live longer, synergize him (although I do recommend maxing Golem Mastery because its an excellent skill for your golem).}

Break-Points

FCR:
15 - 0%
14 - 9%
13 - 18%
12 - 30%
11 - 48%
10 - 75%
9 - 125% (With the gear I have laid out, you will hit this)

FHR:
13 - 0%
12 - 5%
11 - 10%
10 - 16%
9 - 26%
8 - 39%
7 - 56%
6 - 86% (With the gear I have laid out, you will hit this)
5 - 152%
4 - 377%

Pre-Buffing

AN IMPORTANT NOTE ON SUMMONING!!! Kill Nihlahtak but DO NOT GET HIS WAY POINT!!!!! If you don't get his waypoint, the portal to his temple says open and you can use the corpses inside to summon your skeletons. I use 6 skeletons.

First thing you want to do is craft your Iron golem out of an infinity polarm class weapon. Lower damage is better so he doesn’t die at the hands of iron maiden. As a necro, you take your Iron Golem with you between games. He does not die after each game (thats only if you have the amulet Metal Grid). Stay alive and keep your golem alive and you only need 1 Infinity for your entire experience with your necro.

As long as you have maxed out Resistance and solid FCR, you can tele baal games. Once you are level 80 (via chaos leveling) or 92 (via uber leveling), This is what I suggest you do.

Your mercenary should be an act 1 fire arrow archer. Mine is named Fiona (because of Eurotrip). With faith bow, she gives your skeletons fanaticism and she uses inner sight to drop the defense of your enemies.

Game Play

Baal Runs- Summon 6 skeletons in Nihlahtak’s temple, make sure you have your insight iron golem and faith merc. Teleport to baal. Cast amp damage over monsters and as they die one by one, use Corpse explosion to take out the rest of the wave. When you get to baal, cast Decreptify to slow him to a standstill. Don't take any crap from anyone about summoning a small army, if they lag, its their connection or their computer. 6 skeletons is not going to make the game lag; if it lags, blame the mass dupers!

Chaos Runs- These are harder to do than baal runs. I suggest you raise 10 skeletons and 10 revives (made out of pit-lords in chaos sanctuary, or udars along the way) Still cast amplify damage and use corpse explosion. Make sure your golem stays alive though because the knights can be especially brutal to him. This is where it's awesome to have act 1 merc because she basically can't die. Good luck with your act 2 merc in chaos... Personally, I teleport to the seals, pop them then teleport right in the middle of the wave, immediately I take a step back and cast my curse (softcore only. Hardcore, scratch that, be a ***** and you’ll live longer). This may require a potion or two and don't do this if you cry when you die because that might happen. But, I do this to maximize the damage your skeletons do. They kill the monsters in the middle first and when you use c/e it kills the entire wave from the center out with 1-2 c/e's. DO NOT DO THIS FOR LORD. He will kick your ***. You have to be a little bit more careful with Lord de Seis because he has powerful curses and nasty attacks. Approach with caution and c/e the monsters around him to get his life down. He is also the #1 Killer of Iron golem so be extra careful.

Keyfinding- 4 Skeletons will do here. Amp damage Summoner and Countess then teleport right on top of them and pick up your keys. Since we don’t get the waypoint at nihlahtak, it takes a little bit longer to teleport to the halls where he dwells but you can still kill him easy. Take 5 skeletons down and cast amp damage. As his creatures die, be sure to use corpse explosion before he does so you, and your army doesn’t die.

Uber trist- Scout the game. Make sure there are about 40 udars between the River of Flame and Durance of Hate before you open the portal (this is to make sure you can get a second group of 20 if you die). Also make sure the game is permed before you open it as the summons can cause lag and drops. Summon an army of 15+ Skeletons, 10+ Mages, and 20+ revives. Teleport on durial, lillith, and izzy, cast decreptify and watch 30 second deaths (or less). Once trist is open, Kill Mephesto first because he is the hardest. You want to cast Amp damage on for him for wicked fast death. Teleport right on to him then run away quick. If your merc doesnt walk away quick, keep feeding her potions till she gets the clue. Next I kill diablo. He is MUCH easier than meph (it’s almost a joke), Teleport on to him. Cast Decreptify and watch him die in seconds. Last I go for baal. DECREPTY IS IMPORTANT HERE, if he starts walking all over the place, your army doesn’t stick together and his army picks them off quickly. A complete Trist run has taken me anywhere from 1 minute 28 seconds (record)-8 minutes. Once I employed this method of cleaning it out, I have yet to take more than 5 minutes from walking into trist to leaving with my torch. Make sure you only do this alone though because more people in the game will make the game lag and crash since you have in the neighborhood of 50 summoned army members.

Magic Finding- I use Travs, Shako, and Enigma for basically 200 mf. You can add or subtract as you like but I feel this is a solid number. I have no complaints of my findings. You all know where to go to MF, now you can just do it with your summoner!

Conclusion

PVM, this character is the most diverse and effective. When you run your games, make sure you don’t have a huge army because people wont stay in your runs very long if you are lagging them like crazy with a ton of summoned army members. If there is another summoner in your game, tell him NOT summon or cast his curses. He's in the wrong game if he wants to be the summoner.

This build is a lot of fun and it makes peoples (even seasoned players) jaws drop when they see a summoner tele'ing to baal and clearing the throne. The other good thing is if you don’t want to rush the ladder with your summoner, its no big deal because you can max what you need very early on. By 88 you are maxed without dropping a lot of skills into Summon resist.

Arguments Against Alterations (AAA)

Act 2 Pride Might Merc

First of all this merc is lousy. Iron Maiden owns him and his proximity to the action renders his death many more times than it should at this level of the game. Not only that but his contribution to your main body of damage is meager.

Pride and Might merc add damage. There is no denying that. They do add damage to your skeletons. Our goal with this build is not to maximize our damage; but rather, to maximize the damage we do. Act 1 Mercs have Inner Sight. This skill lowers enemy defense. This skill is more valuable than might. Your damage dealt is higher when your enemy has no defense to defend them.
Now, people love to say, well then use infinity merc. Yes that’s an option and infinity is good. But now I am going to show you the way to have infinity, faith and inner sight as well as a merc who slaughters rather than gets slaughtered.

Infinity Golem v. Iron Golem

Before this build, I could not teleport around the game without mediation since my mana was too low and I needed potions. Now with over 1200 mana, I can teleport till the cows come in. Insight golem is out dated for the pros.

Infinity golem offers the answer to what you all wanted. More auras, more effective skeletons/mages/revives. Conviction is an aura we can all appreciate. It lowers enemy resistance and defense.

Faith has 6 levels of Fanaticism Over Beast

Skeletons attack at a fixed frame of attack. Its 15 Frames per second. Beast brings that attack speed up to 14 frames and Faith brings the speed up to 13 frames per second. Effectively, the additional damage the skeletons could do if there was no frame cap is then added to their damage. So Faith Summons attack at the same frame as Beast summons but with the damage level of a higher frame.

Furthermore, Beast does not do you justice. You lose so many skills and its hard to max resistance with beast. You do not want to lose valuable skill points which help your skeletons for a lower level of fanaticism than faith offers. It’s simply not worth it.

[Wizdomm]

Why in the world would anyone use a Act1 faith merc instead of using an Act2 might merc with Infinity for conviction...and then you could carry Beast for fanaticism. It makes no sense to me.

Might + Conviction + Fanaticism + Crushing Blow (from Infinity) + MUCH Higher Merc Dmg > Faith Bow Merc.


I don't care if Faith has lvl 15 fanat and Beast only has lvl 9...I'll take the lvl 9 if I can have all of the above as well. And seriously...even those of us who could afford it...I would NEVER waste a good polearm like Infinity on an iron golem.

[AnimeCraze]

I would use AoKL to summon, then switch to something more useful, like HotO, or even wizard spike. Carin shard doesn't have the resist to make it remotely useful IMO.

[handofnaz]

I'll have to give you props for suggesting the use of a Carin Shard. I do like this wand very much, though I fail to see why an FHR breakpoint is even necessary on a summoner in PVM, and why it would be superior to more convenient combinations of resistances, +skills and FCR, such as Hoto, Spirit, or even Wizardspike. Apart from that, there's little else that I find particularly appealing about this guide.

It's a fairly accepted fact that Act 2 mercs aren't just walking auras. In most cases, they're a primary source of damage for summoners of all flavours. It's like having a turbo-powered Urdar follow you around, only with his own auras and customised gear.

How do you propose felling bosses and larger targets with a Faith merc? Surely you don't expect your skellies to do that? Though you could, of course, just grab some Urdars for that very purpose, but still...

I'm far more comfortable with the cost of resurrecting an Infinity merc slain by IM than having to risk losing a golem made out of such an expensive runeword. 50,000 gold versus two Bers, hardly a commodity on SP, which is a very healthy and active community around here.

Maxed Golem Mastery is nice and all, but I've had golems simply disappear on me, and not just die. I've had one just poof away in Duriel's Chamber, for example, without even having taken a hit from Duriel. I've also read cases of golems fizzling away between games. It's just not worth the Infinity. Better an Insight for the golem and Infinity on the merc.

I suppose that a Faith merc would be nice to help your skellies out for smaller games, but how effective would they be in larger ones, even with the Fanat aura? A properly equipped Might merc can take down Lister's pack in 8 player games with few problems.

Sorry if I seem so critical, but the necromancer forum discusses these issues on a daily basis, and probably every possible iteration of a summoner has already been proposed and dissected here.

20RS, 20SM and 20CE is an old favourite, something credited to Nightfish, one of our older forumers and a trusted authority on many aspects of the game. Incontestable Greatness just feels like yet another aura-stacking necro build, albeit with somewhat unusual gear choices attached.

[Wizdomm]

BTW...something I missed in my previous post...

Why are you even bothering trying to hit 125 fcr and 86 fhr on a PvM summoner? It is definitely not essential on any necro in PvM to have 125/86 bps...and on a summoner...what spell is a PvM summoner needing to fire off rapidly?

Skills/resists > fcr/fhr in PvM.

Ditch the Spirit. Get a boneflame or a darkforce (or homo if you want to max block). Ditch carin shard. You carry it for fhr? Carry a Beast...if you MUST have your faith merc, then carry a Hoto. Get rid of the fcr rings/ammy and throw on some SOJs and a Maras (helps the BO for your minions).

[stephan]

The problem with Fana is that regardless of their attack speed skeletons have a 15 frame delay between each attack. If you run the numbers in the necro pet calc the difference between Fana (Faith) and Might is really not that big.

I completely dislike the attitude of the guide. It is brought as if the writer is the Messiah descended from JSP heaven to redeem our helpless souls. We already have an excellent summoner guide (or two) here.

[mephistophilis]

Ok I am going to address several things.

First of all, the opening sentence of the guide stats this summoner is a caster.

He is supposed to play the game fast. All you people calling for beast and homunc and all that garbage are missing a key element, people want to play their summoner fast. Otherwise, he is boring. When a character is slow, it becomes frustrating and people move on to something else.

Act 2 merc is not a merc for damage. There are too many creatures that can own him easily. Skeletons, Udars, and Mages (if you want) are your fighting force.

That being said. A1 Merc still owns house. She can kill most normal monsters by herself even in an 8 person game.

Your goal is to get max fcr, good fhr, great life and since we are not using insight golem, great mana for teleporting and casting and using c/e.

That is why I am using Carin. It is a more well rounded weapon than Hoto and you can get more mana out of a Carin set up since you get 112 out of that at lvl 90 + regenerate from mages, mana from fcr rings, shako, amulet, charms and SPIRIT

You need spirit to max potential for 125% fcr, good fhr and good res. It also has 2 to all skills to bring down your teleport mana consumption.

Infinity golem does not die unless you are retarded and let him. With bo + Golem mastery synergy, he is indestructable. Use a low damage scythe and he isnt going anywhere.



Now lets talk about pet damage stephan.

Please read more closely, even though there is a cap on frames, you get more damage based on the frame you hit. The break down:

Say you have lvl 9 Fanat from beast-- thats 14 frames of attack. Say you average 14000 damage per second at 15 frames but you get 16000 damage at 14. SInce there is a cap, the damage you should get from frames is calculated into your damage at 15 frames. Thus, you actually do 16k at 15 frames like you would be doing at 14.

lvl 15 fanat from faith hits 13 frames on skeletons increasing your damage by a substantial figure.


This is why I brought you guys this guide.

You are all so stuck on beast with a2 merc and it bothers me. You aren't using your summoner to your fullest potential

[stephan]

Please read more closely, even though there is a cap on frames, you get more damage based on the frame you hit.
Read more closely. There is not a cap, there is a 15 frame *delay*.

Bring realistic numbers from the pet calc and show us the big difference. Or, shall I do it? Ok:

level 18 might (level 87 merc), level 40 RS/RM = 10830 DPS
level 15 fana, level 40 RS/RM = 11284 DPS.

Well wooptiewoo, that's worth losing an Infinity Golem for.

Your 'assessment' of an act 2 merc's survivability is also completely off IMHO.

[mephistophilis]

I usually go from lvl 45 for calculation but thats no matter.

Cap and delay is semantics...ultimately Bnet just slows them down to reduce lag but my point stands.

Also, especially for chaos you would need a low damage infinity merc. My principle here is 1 set of gear for every mission.

if you had 2 infinities (1 high damage for non chaos and 1 low dmg for chaos) that takes up space in your inventory. Also he can die from iron maiden in baal throne. What do you do when you lose might and conv. You have to leave the throne to go get him again. THats more of a pain in the *** to me than anything else.

Ubers is another thing as well. A1 merc=good to go (as she always is). A2 merc, doesnt do so hot from close range against mephy.


Bottom line is, this is a 5th edition of this guide. I went from psn/summon hybrid to a2 infinity/beast insight golem to hoto/faith insight golem and I have found the carin/faith merc/infinity golem to be amazing.

Any fast paced summoner is going to be more fun than one that barely can cast anything. I use 86% fhr for hardcore, that is 1 thing that you might not need unless you are on hardcore I acknowledge that. But otherwise, this character is maximized in potential.

[LongingForDeath]

Enigma and Faith are absolutely required to build this Necro in an effective manner. I would not even consider beginning to build this summoner without these two rune-words because he will not be able to teleport and your skeletons will not have the enhanced damage and attack speed to be useful in a timely manner. Also, you will not under any circumstances be able to run baal games or Uber-trist.
Also, don’t forget you will need Infinity now.
I'm sorry, but this is a huge chunk of BS. I have none of your mentioned "absolutely required" items and I do hell Baal runs just fine. Yes, you will need teleport if you want to do ubers. But that's about the only time you will need teleport.


if it lags, blame the mass dupers!
You know, this is a kinda funny statement, considering the fact that you're recommending runewords that use runes, which are duped in about 99.9% of all cases.


All you people calling for beast and homunc and all that garbage are missing a key element, people want to play their summoner fast. Otherwise, he is boring.
That's your personal opinion, to which you are entitled to, but it's not necessarily a fact.


Act 2 merc is not a merc for damage. There are too many creatures that can own him easily. Skeletons, Udars, and Mages (if you want) are your fighting force.
Granted, my summoner has only +13 to RS/SM, but my Act2 merc kills a lot faster with his Obediance Thresher than my skellies and mages. With his 40% Crushing Blow, he's the one who brings Baal's life down quickly. Not my skellies and mages.


Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that your build isn't any good. I'm quite sure it kicks ***. But it's definitely not the only good/possible way to build a summoner.

[mephistophilis]

Just fine is probably a standard not up to my par. If you cant teleport, you cant stack and you will find yourself out in front of your army a lot. I cant have that.

Yeah most runes are duped. We can still blame them for causing lag. they should be on when no one else is anyways.

Yes it is my opinion, but I think it is shared by many that people dont like slow characters.


Im not saying its the only possible.

There are tons of better options if you are not a casting necro. If I wasnt a caster, I would have +3 circ/+3 Ammy, coh or trangs armor, a bunch of mf. I'd have boneflame and Aokl and sojs. My build is a caster summoner expected to be fast and lethal.

There are several options. I am just saying for a casting Summoner, it doesnt get any faster or better than this set up.

[NumtyDoo]

My Summoner is a caster. Caster of what? Tele and curses? Get real guy, you are a summoner, you may be a summoner that has reached the next fastest FCR BP, but you are a summoner none the less.


Carin Shard Wand (yep, doesn’t get more godly than this. Hoto doesn’t hold a candle to it.) Huh? The wand definately is not crap and could be included on a list of "other" viable weapons, but it is a compromise, Hoto and wizzy have more to offer as far as FCR and resists, skills from Hoto lower tele cost and boost CE range. Beast helps your peeps alot more. Have no idea why this wand would be picked as an Uber summoner, er... I mean, caster weapon.


First of all this merc is lousy. Iron Maiden owns him and his proximity to the action renders his death many more times than it should at this level of the game. Not only that but his contribution to your main body of damage is meager.
I do concede that Act2 mercs get owned by IM, it is fairly common knowledge, but nothing else in the entire game kills my merc, even ubers, so I don't know why yours is getting "owned" so much. As far as "meager damage contribution"...are you kidding? Everyone knows that when you get to late game hell it is CE that does the damage, not skellies, and the single best way for a summoner to get that 1st body for the CE chain is with an Act2 merc. The damage per second these guys do compared to act1 merc, including CB (CB is nerfed on ranged attack and act1 mercs can't hold as much anyway), would have to be close to 5 times more. Someone already mentioned this but the difference between fana and might only comes out to like 100 damage per skellie, and the mercs insane damage more than makes up for this. While your zon and skellies are hacking away, I have already blown up the whole screen and moved on to the next. Act2 mercs will probably kill a boss faster by himself than your act1 merc and army combined.

As far as IM, I use confuse in those situations, if you have to, remove your mercs polearm, these pretty much eliminate the problem. Besides I don't feel that "nerfing" my setup so that I have an easier time with 10% of the game and am significantly slower for the other 90% is such a good idea.


Infinity golem does not die unless you are retarded and let him. With bo + Golem mastery synergy, he is indestructable. Use a low damage scythe and he isnt going anywhere.
It is common knowledge that golems do occasionally poof, it just happens, it will happen. Read the forums, it is full of people complaining about iron golems randomly poofing. Infinity is way too expensive to have poof.

[mephistophilis]

Caster of what? Tele and curses? Get real guy, you are a summoner, you may be a summoner that has reached the next fastest FCR BP, but you are a summoner none the less.

Huh? The wand definately is not crap and could be included on a list of "other" viable weapons, but it is a compromise, Hoto and wizzy have more to offer as far as FCR and resists, skills from Hoto lower tele cost and boost CE range. Beast helps your peeps alot more. Have no idea why this wand would be picked as an Uber summoner, er... I mean, caster weapon.

I do concede that Act2 mercs get owned by IM, it is fairly common knowledge, but nothing else in the entire game kills my merc, even ubers, so I don't know why yours is getting "owned" so much. As far as "meager damage contribution"...are you kidding? Everyone knows that when you get to late game hell it is CE that does the damage, not skellies, and the single best way for a summoner to get that 1st body for the CE chain is with an Act2 merc. The damage per second these guys do compared to act1 merc, including CB (CB is nerfed on ranged attack and act1 mercs can't hold as much anyway), would have to be close to 5 times more. While your zon and skellies are hacking away, I have already blown up the whole screen and moved on to the next. Act2 mercs will probably kill a boss faster by himself than your act1 merc and army combined.

As far as IM, I use confuse in those situations, if you have to, remove your mercs polearm, these pretty much eliminate the problem. Besides I don't feel that "nerfing" my setup so that I have an easier time with 10% of the game and am significantly slower for the other 90% is such a good idea.

Please re consider the weapon choices. Wizzy and hoto dont offer the amount of mana and life as carin. If you follow my gear selection you hit 125% fcr without the need of a huge fcr weapon.

Wave 4 minions revived kill baal in seconds. I'd rather summon them for the bosses than have a merc who forces me to use beast.

every other boss dies in seconds without vives or even 10 skeletons.

You can either be a running summoner or a caster. If you have nigma, you are a caster, get your fcr up and be a real caster. none of this 48-75% fcr bull****.


You guys need to try the act 1 merc. You are all way too stuck on act 2 merc and there is no reason. I just showed you how to get every single one of the good auras (fanat, conviction, thorns) and better fanat than with beast.

Go ahead and step outside the box guys.

[NumtyDoo]

I am not saying that your build is not viable, I am sure that it is. I don't think that anyone is saying that, but this guide is far from uber, as damage and kill speed have not been close to maximized. I believe that is the spirit of everyone critisism.


You guys need to try the act 1 merc. You are all way too stuck on act 2 merc and there is no reason. I just showed you how to get every single one of the good auras (fanat, conviction, thorns) and better fanat than with beast.
What you have shown me is a way to lose an infinity (poofed conviction golem), nerf my killing speed (act1 merc), and use an aura that has been rendered meager by the relationship between monster life and damage(thorns).


You can either be a running summoner or a caster. If you have nigma, you are a caster, get your fcr up and be a real caster. none of this 48-75% fcr bull****.
I still do not see how tele makes you a caster, when 90% of your spells are summons, your a summoner...your just in denial. What is the point in tele'ing twice as fast, just to kill 3 times slower?


You guys need to try the act 1 merc. You are all way too stuck on act 2 merc and there is no reason. I just showed you how to get every single one of the good auras (fanat, conviction, thorns) and better fanat than with beast.
I had an act1 faith merc with bramble before I got my infinity. Act2 might merc with infinity is faster, removed the bramble for CoH and didn't lose any killing speed. Thorns isn't what it used to be, besides most things don't live long enough against my act2 merc to even get to taste thorns.


Go ahead and step outside the box guys.

If you read the forums you will see that most of these things have been tried and tested, many of the posts even have the math to back up the observations, there is a reason why 90% of the people use the same end game gear/setup, because it is the best. It has gotten to the point now where equipment is almost never argued over, it has been so well discussed it just comes down to play style now, hoto vs beast, and homo vs spirit. The only real discussion left for necros is what to max last (DV, mages, golem mastery, or Bone armor) You thinking outside the box has created an interesting and viable build, but you sacrifice too much for FCR and for fear of IM, and damage wise the build is nowhere near uber.

[stephan]

I usually go from lvl 45 for calculation but thats no matter.

Cap and delay is semantics...ultimately Bnet just slows them down to reduce lag but my point stands.
Your point was that Faith does a lot more damage than Might, which it really doesn't. So there it goes. The difference between a cap and a delay is far from symantical and you didn't show to understand the delay in your calculation example which is why I put emphasis on the word.

[JubalBane]

I play a lot of what I call "pure summoners" as in I only use summons and curses with out CE or any other poison/bone skill. Resists are really the only "essential" thing. +Skills are great to have but I have finished the game with out them. Teleport is also a great skill to have but not necessary. It makes the maggit layer goes better with Teleport. Otherwise I used self found in game items.

Also how is this really significantly different from a Fishymancer? IMHO I think your idea is worth a post but not a guide.

JubalBane

[AnimeCraze]

I suggest go play around with the necro calculator. Check the difference in damage with a faith merc and a might merc + beast. IMO faith merc should go to zons, not necros. (IIRC we can link to this calc, correct me if I am wrong)

http://tph.tuwien.ac.at/~gottwald/necro_pet_calculator.html

By the way, where does your anti soul gear come in? Your resist is crap as far as I can tell.

[shijo]

Feel free to debate me, but overall, its going to be awfully hard to prove me wrong.

Making a baseless statement like this is inviting people to work very hard to do just that. Calling your guide "Incontestable Greatness" is ridiculous man. I'm all for you being proud of your build, but when you add a "holier than thou" aspect to your post, that puts people on the defensive from the get-go. If you want people to take you seriously, you really need to avoid those kinds of statements.

I won't go and re-hash everything Numty or the other folks have said. They have done a great job illustrating what's strong about a summoner when made properly and debating your points.

The bottom line is that a summoner is a summoner. He's not a sorc that has to cast Frozen Orb at the highest breakpoint. CE is a mass destruction spell, and as such the speed at which you cast it isn't really that important. When you wipe out half the screen with one or two casts, fcr doesn't make things die any faster. The only place FCR has on a summoner is to make enigma effective, and you certainly don't have to hit the highest breakpoint to be effective with teleport. When your act 2 might merc with Infinity turns Baal or DClone into a pile of goo in 30 seconds, you don't have to think much about whether you want to use an act 1 merc with Faith.



You are all so stuck on beast with a2 merc and it bothers me. You aren't using your summoner to your fullest potential.

When you realize that a summoner is a summoner and not a caster, the gear choices people make will make a lot more sense. Is your build viable? I would imagine so, or you wouldn't be writing this. But seriously, using a summoner to it's fullest potential? Give me a break. You being stuck on an Infinity golem and a act 1 merc with Faith bothers me.

[Greyeagle]

I
I still do not see how tele makes you a caster, when 90% of your spells are summons, your a summoner...your just in denial. What is the point in tele'ing twice as fast, just to kill 3 times slower?


Whether it is for key runs or tele stacking, I cast tele far more often than I cast a summon spell. I wouldn't make an enigma summoner without hitting the 75fcr + 56fhr breakpoints. Tele-stack and ce is a valid play style, and one that benefits greatly from FCR/FHR.

I'm not knocking anything else you've said, or saying that this guide is great. :)

[IntellectSucks]

My five cents (adjusted for inflation):

The reason he is calling it a caster is his play strategy. If you're teleing right into the center of monster packs, you damn well better have that highest breakpoint, as well as a really high break point for FHR. My take is that this necro is about stick and move, stick and move, not insane amounts of damage. Hence the choice of an act 1 merc. It sounds like he is running chaos and baal a lot. Anyone who does that with an Act 2 merc is going to spend a lot of time at Tyrael/Qual Kek. To avoid this, he uses a merc with good damage that is unaffected by IM. I have no doubt in my mind that this build will get that first body or two in seconds or less. Once you have those, the merc is irrelevant.

THAT said most people will not favor this play style. The easier and safer choice is to use the act 2 merc. With decent life leach and good gear you should only have problems with IM. There are tons of solutions to this problem, not the least of which is just paying 50k to res him. With decent MF and with the amount of time you're spending at town selling your finds, why not use one extra trip every now and then?

Also the Golem dying is not really the issue most people are bringing up. They're worried that the buggy nature of the game will poof a really expensive item. EVERY Necro who has played with Iron Golem for a decent amount of time has had him poof for no reason before. What good are the godly finds you get with this build if you have something of equal value vanish periodically?

The way the delay works is the skellies attack at whatever frame rate they have reached, then wait for 15 frames before attacking again. That is why everyone is pointing out the fact that the higher break point for the skellies doesn't increase damage that much.

[shijo]

He's talking about hitting 125/86, not 75/56. That's a pretty big difference in what you have to sacrifice to obtain that extra fcr/fhr.

[NumtyDoo]

Greyeagle, I agree, some FCR/FHR is good, I use 75 FCR and 86 FHR myself . The points I was trying to make were (I appologize if I was not clear or have offended anyone) that tele doesn't make you a caster, I mean come on, a barb with an enigma is still melee. The other point was that 75/56 or 75/86 breakpoints can be reached easily, beyond that you get to a point where you start sacrificing def, skills, damage, life, mana, general survivability, etc.

A 125 FCR nec will get you straight to the boss faster, but it will take you longer to kill the boss, and correct me if I am wrong, but in my experience most of the good items and runes that I have found have been from the lvl 85 areas on the way to the boss and not actually from the boss himself, and because of the sacrifices made to reach 125 FCR you will be clearing the areas and killing the bosses more slowly than a 75 FCR nec.

A good example is a MF sorc, you can get 1k mf, but you will find that you do better with 500-ish mf, because 1k mf requires such a large sacrafice of kill speed and survivability. For a true caster like a hammerdin, sorc, or windy those last FCR breakpoints are worth some sacrifice because it translates into survivability, damage output, and overall kill speed. With a summoner it just means a little faster tele.

Just my opinion.

[IntellectSucks]

He's talking about hitting 125/86, not 75/56. That's a pretty big difference in what you have to sacrifice to obtain that extra fcr/fhr.

That may be but if all his points go into vitality and he's quick with his fingers, he may be able to make up for it. Skellies and mages can do some really sick damage by themselves, especially when stacked. Sometimes when I'm doing chaos runs and my merc kills himself(I tried putting him on anti depressants but he just keeps attacking when IMed, no luck), I won't even bother resing him til I pop the seals. Sure it cuts on my killing speed but sometimes it's just not worth the extra time and gold to keep on bringing him back(especially when he dies again before his aura even activates:grrrr:). I could see using an act 1 merc to get around this. It would keep your killing speed even throughout every kind of run and would still do pretty good damage by itself.

As far as sacrificing res etc. With that high FCR and FHR, it should be pretty easy to get out of sticky situations. Also, he stated in his guide that playing with his strategy will result in death sometimes. Someone who is good at getting in, getting out and spamming CE should be able to avoid dying most times. For those other times, it's something you just have to deal with.

[shijo]

That may be but if all his points go into vitality and he's quick with his fingers, he may be able to make up for it. Skellies and mages can do some really sick damage by themselves, especially when stacked. Sometimes when I'm doing chaos runs and my merc kills himself(I tried putting him on anti depressants but he just keeps attacking when IMed, no luck), I won't even bother resing him til I pop the seals. Sure it cuts on my killing speed but sometimes it's just not worth the extra time and gold to keep on bringing him back(especially when he dies again before his aura even activates:grrrr:). I could see using an act 1 merc to get around this. It would keep your killing speed even throughout every kind of run and would still do pretty good damage by itself.

As far as sacrificing res etc. With that high FCR and FHR, it should be pretty easy to get out of sticky situations. Also, he stated in his guide that playing with his strategy will result in death sometimes. Someone who is good at getting in, getting out and spamming CE should be able to avoid dying most times. For those other times, it's something you just have to deal with.

What's interesting, is with the ideal fishy setup, using an enigma, and the common 75/56 breakpoints being met, I can tele-stack when I have to without a problem. I don't use it as my primary killing tactic, but it's useful for repositioning. I don't need a whole different build to use the exact same tactic when it's important for me to use. Besides, I can deal with losing my merc to IM on occasion (it's not that often) because he has 75% crushing blow with infinity/guillaume's which makes him a real meat grinder.

[bruticus]

good debate going here.

Meph, appreciate the post, regardless of what the haters have to say. it takes a fair amount of work to put it all together (and to stand by it).

having done a lot of keyrunning (softcore, mind you) i have to say that the 125 FCR breakpoint is very, very nice. if the point of the guide is to make a fast, safe teleporter for boss/key running, it's hard to argue the gear choices. pure-man's gear not withstanding, this build will differ in playing style from a typical fishymancer.

i consider the fishymancer to be a full area clearing character. mine can walk from beginning to end safely, albeit slower than a teleporting sorc that does boss-running. this build appears to focus more on making the summoner faster at running bosses and keys. to do that, there's no question you need FCR. to do it reasonably safely in hardcore, you had better have some FHR to go along with it.

still kinda risky to me in HC, but i can still appreciate the spirit of it.

[shijo]

if the point of the guide is to make a fast, safe teleporter for boss/key running, it's hard to argue the gear choices. pure-man's gear not withstanding, this build will differ in playing style from a typical fishymancer.



Except that's not the point of the guide. The point is to argue that it's the "the most effective pvm build for all around play in the game". He uses words like "Incontestable Greatness" and flat out says it's hard to prove him wrong. If he said the point was to make a fast, safe teleporter for boss/key running, there wouldn't be very many arguments.

[NumtyDoo]

Intellectsucks, I agree with you, I am sure that this build is viable, I am sure that it does quite well.

I think where everyone is coming from on this is that having a build that is slightly better on 10% of situations and slightly worse on 90%, that uses expensive runewords in golems that poof, has runewords with auras that are no longer very effective(thorns), and then claims its unarguable uberness, well it just doesn't add up.

I don't feel that the guide was well thought out, I mean, you can't use an act1 merc and then use the statement "an Act2 mercs damage contribution is meager", when an act2 merc will outdamage an act1 merc in every situation except for IM.

This gear setup gives faster tele, but lags behind on damage output and survivability, the mentioned setup is slower at area clears and especially boss killing.

Someone mentioned this already, but this isn't really a guide, it is a fishy that is using an act1 merc and a focus in FCR, but is really still a fishy. His ideas are for sure worth a mention on the forum, but I don't think a guide is needed. Sorry if I sound harsh, I don't mean to be.

[Dirkw]

Intellectsucks, I agree with you, I am sure that this build is viable, I am sure that it does quite well.

I think where everyone is coming from on this is that having a build that is slightly better on 10% of situations and slightly worse on 90%, that uses expensive runewords in golems that poof, has runewords with auras that are no longer very effective(thorns), and then claims its unarguable uberness, well it just doesn't add up.

I don't feel that the guide was well thought out, I mean, you can't use an act1 merc and then use the statement "an Act2 mercs damage contribution is meager", when an act2 merc will outdamage an act1 merc in every situation except for IM.

This gear setup gives faster tele, but lags behind on damage output and survivability, the mentioned setup is slower at area clears and especially boss killing.

Someone mentioned this already, but this isn't really a guide, it is a fishy that is using an act1 merc and a focus in FCR, but is really still a fishy. His ideas are for sure worth a mention on the forum, but I don't think a guide is needed. Sorry if I sound harsh, I don't mean to be.

I agree 100%.

Also, carin shard for mana? Is that really a good reason? I Just use an insight golem... Carin shard is fine, but it seems like you're promoting it just for the sake of uniqueness. I wouldn't ever give up either hoto or leoric for it.

And you can´t really play a summoner like a caster. He´s a summoner, because he´s dependent on the killing speed of his minions. He´s not like a light sorc, AT ALL. You can reach all the fcr you want, it´s not going to help you kill faster. It´s going to get you to where you want faster, true, but that´s all it does for a summoner.

[Greyeagle]

I agree 100%.

Also, carin shard for mana? Is that really a good reason? I Just use an insight golem... Carin shard is fine, but it seems like you're promoting it just for the sake of uniqueness. I wouldn't ever give up either hoto or leoric for it.

And you can´t really play a summoner like a caster. He´s a summoner, because he´s dependent on the killing speed of his minions. He´s not like a light sorc, AT ALL. You can reach all the fcr you want, it´s not going to help you kill faster. It´s going to get you to where you want faster, true, but that´s all it does for a summoner.

If it was a choice between carin or aokl with no swap, I'd pick carin every time. The mana and life are that good. :) (Of course, I don't live with that restriction and use a hoto or wizspike) Also, remember in his guide you can't have an insight golem - it's dedicated to infinity.

With the build (or play style) he's suggesting, killing speed of the individual minions isn't that important. He's using tele stacking, and when you do that you don't need more +skills than he has listed. Tele-stacking means that FCR is the determiner in how fast you 'hit' your target.

In low player count games CE takes over that role, since you can kill with a couple of bodies, and the bodies fall even without stacking. In high player count games, you need to kill a few more targets before CE can do the job, and they only go down much quicker with stacking. That means more tele-ing.

When I run my tele necro, I'm all over popping from monster to monster as fast as I can. I don't use FCR to just get to the throne room.

[Dirkw]

With that kind of play, your infinity golem won´t last long.

Don´t get me wrong, I´m all for telestacking, it´s a solid and usually safe way of playing (except vs aoe damage). But FCR won't speed it up like it speeds up a sorc, because the time it takes to kill a typical hell act5 monster and ce'ing its surroundings is of an amount such that speeding up the tp's in between killing won't increase your overall killing speed much. Especially when there's IM to take into account.

I'm not saying that FCR isn't useful for a necromancer. I'm saying it shouldn't get more attention than +skills, because +skills is what ultimately provides killing power (and survivability) for a summoner...
Ultimately, if you really wanted a good FCR breakpoint, you could just go for it. Spirit + HOTO + Magefist + Arach + FCR ring = done. That doesn't need a guide by some (obviously cocky imo) man who feels he has just invented the wheel.

I don´t need the life or mana from carin shard either. The life and mana BOCL doesn´t multiply. Also, as a side note, leoric gives the same mana. The life is neglible, from my experience. Although you could disagree, IMO either the extra plus 2 skills from leoric or the massive fcr and res from hoto easily beat carin shard. As said, it´s a decent alternative, nothing more. It doesn´t excel at anything but that.

I know you cant´use insight golem in his guide. That´s kind of silly imo, since for a large portion of nec characters, insight golem is thé choice in terms of supply and price. Infinity golem equals asking for problems and is just insanity for the player who doesn't hold 100 HRs in his or her stash. If putting infinity on an iron golem is the solution for something, it's just not the solution at all IMO, especially no solution for "being stuck on beast with a2 merc (with infinity, WITHOUT the risk of losing it, red.), which bothers me and means you aren't using your summoner to your fullest potential".

[mephistophilis]

The primary attack of a summoner is Corpse explosion. That is a casting skill. This character is a caster if built properly; it is not a sit back and relax build. I have built this character around 2 major things, fast game play and great protection. Your fast game play comes in from major damage from your merc and skeletons right away to give you a couple of corpses to blow up. These summons also protect you from having your *** handed to you as a low defense/no block character.

Skeletons/Mages/Revives are there as a meat shield/Boss Slayer.

I don't know why you guys are saying I dont max res. I do. I have maxed out resistance.

I use carin for mana because my golem is made of infinity, not insight. I need all the mana I can get for Teleport, Curses, Summoning, and C/E.

This character kills FASTER than a Beast/A2 Merc Build throughout the entire game! Udar Revives and Pit Lord Revives Crush Baal and Diablo in less than 1 minute. Mephy, Duri and Andy I dont even use vives. Just 10 Skeletons and they're dead in seconds.

The ONLY way to Hit 125% FCR, Max Res, hitting 86% FHR and enough Mana to play without potting is to use this set up. Believe me I have tried them all.

What I am asking you to do with this guide is get away from the idea that a summoner is a sit back and watch character who is slow. A summoner is an extremely fast, extremely lethal character that is under utilized for this fashion.

I ask you to please use my set up for a couple of days and then switch back to your old method, then come tell me if I am wrong.

I expect you all to try it before knocking it anymore.


Here is my problem with Leoric as a primary weapon, Bone Prison and lack of FHR. The cast on hit does not sit well with me as I play Hardcore now. Softcore, fine do whatever you want. 2 skills trumps fhr and a skill that could potentially kill you from getting tangled in your own wall. Hardcore though you NEED the extra fhr and life from carin.


I will have you all know my old build was with hoto and frostburns. The problem with this is you lack 86% and you can get own'd by fanatic Pitlords/Udars without that extra break point. I am trying to show you the way to staying alive and playing fast.

This is a unique concept for a summoner as I see from your response. But I implore you, please try it.

[Wizdomm]

This is a unique concept for a summoner as I see from your response. But I implore you, please try it.

The problem with anyone who wants to "try it" is that your build requires the loss of a very expensive piece of equipment for your iron golem. Hell, if I was willing to wastefully throw away good gear, then I'd go with the usual Might/Infinity/Beast combo with a Pride golem.

I don't know why you can't admit, with the lack of an innate aura on the Act 1 merc and the fact that she will do a quarter less damage than an Act 2 merc, that the Act 2 merc is superior. I just can't take you or your guide seriously until you do.

[AnimeCraze]

I don't know why you guys are saying I dont max res. I do. I have maxed out resistance.I see what your res is coming from now. But that's a waste of ring slots. I rather take wizzy/HotO (depending on # of resist charms) + 2x SoJ. Shael the shako for FHR if needed, as you no longer need that resist jewel. If you are still worried about resist, drop the useless travs and put on resist boots.

By the way, before you say that you tried all the setups, try doing the calculations. You cannot prove that you actually tried the setups to us, nor can we disprove you. The only way to go about this is to do the numbers. That's why I posted the calculator.

[mephistophilis]

The problem with anyone who wants to "try it" is that your build requires the loss of a very expensive piece of equipment for your iron golem. Hell, if I was willing to wastefully throw away good gear, then I'd go with the usual Might/Infinity/Beast combo with a Pride golem.

I don't know why you can't admit, with the lack of an innate aura on the Act 1 merc and the fact that she will do a quarter less damage than an Act 2 merc, that the Act 2 merc is superior. I just can't take you or your guide seriously until you do.

You better go check the pet calculator. The goal is NOT, i repeat NOT to have a super damage merc. Super damage merc= instant death from IM. The goal is to give your summons something nice.

Lets repeat this- Yes there is a delay/cap Whatever you want to call it. But the damage from reaching higher frames is given to you. your skeletons do more damage from level 15 fanat. And not just because of the 6 levels of extra % damage, but also because you hit a (theoretical) higher break point!

You have missed the entire point of this. The merc has nothing to do with it. Its not your primary attacking source.

And to say you are wasting an expensive item is somewhat a joke. Go on d2jsp, trade all your crap you've accumulated and you can get an infinity for practically nothing on ladder.

OR, god forbid you try it on hero editor to see its godly. Jesus- example numero uno for what I meant by you are too quick to judge.



I see what your res is coming from now. But that's a waste of ring slots. I rather take wizzy/HotO (depending on # of resist charms) + 2x SoJ. Shael the shako for FHR if needed, as you no longer need that resist jewel. If you are still worried about resist, drop the useless travs and put on resist boots.

By the way, before you say that you tried all the setups, try doing the calculations. You cannot prove that you actually tried the setups to us, nor can we disprove you. The only way to go about this is to do the numbers. That's why I posted the calculator.


What would be the point of switching to sojs? I have rings that do as much to mana along with resistance. (and it's bo-able mana) not the +20% sojs add.


And I have used every set up

I've used every wand, every runeword option (including spirit, last wish (for might and fade), Silence (skill and res)), Wizzy, Hoto. I've tried pride merc, pride golem, Infinity merc, infinity golem, Beast golem, faith merc.

This is the set up I concluded was best all around.

I've used pet calculator for every set up to see what would deal most damage for the Skeletons and mages. Obviously Conviction cant be calculated in that, so take that into consideration for both a might merc and a faith merc. I am telling you, do all the calculations. Do it as indepth as I have and you will draw the same conclusion:

Faith+ Infinity+Bramble+Casting Abilities> Beast+Infinity+Might+Less Tactful Abilities.

[AnimeCraze]

I've used pet calculator for every set up to see what would deal most damage for the Skeletons and mages. Obviously Conviction cant be calculated in that, so take that into consideration for both a might merc and a faith merc. I am telling you, do all the calculations. Do it as indepth as I have and you will draw the same conclusion:Tell us which one you used, as well as post the output of the calc, then. By the way, it's Beast+Infinity+Might+pride golem, if you are going for expensive golems. Also, my setup should reach 125 FCR + 86 FHR as well, as that's a "standard" lamerdin setup, apart from the shael shako. It's easy enough to swap back and forth between casting setup and beast with weapon switch. You can keep the CtA in stash, if you insist on using it.

The problem is not trading for an infinity. It's trading for an infinity golem. 3 HR's is 3 HR's, no matter how you phrase it, and I for one will not risk 3 HR's poofing because of golem bugs.

As for the breakpoint, it's 14+15 frames vs 13+15 frames, 29/28 = 1.0357 = +3.57% total damage. The speed increase isn't all that significant.

[Wizdomm]

Faith+ Infinity+Bramble+Casting Abilities> Beast+Infinity+Might+Less Tactful Abilities.

Why can't I have Beast+Infinity+Might+Casting Abilities?

Seriously...all I lose from swapping out that Carin Shard for a Beast is 10% fcr. That can be made up. Loss of mana as well...but Insight golem takes care of that.

[mephistophilis]

Why can't I have Beast+Infinity+Might+Casting Abilities?

Seriously...all I lose from swapping out that Carin Shard for a Beast is 10% fcr. That can be made up. Loss of mana as well...but Insight golem takes care of that.

then u lose 3 skill levels. Then you get into having to switch out cta for aokl to summon then switch back to bo.

If you read the intro, another vibrant point is its efficiency with only 1 set of gear without swapping out ANYTHING.


Tell us which one you used, as well as post the output of the calc, then. By the way, it's Beast+Infinity+Might+pride golem, if you are going for expensive golems. Also, my setup should reach 125 FCR + 86 FHR as well, as that's a "standard" lamerdin setup, apart from the shael shako. It's easy enough to swap back and forth between casting setup and beast with weapon switch. You can keep the CtA in stash, if you insist on using it.

The problem is not trading for an infinity. It's trading for an infinity golem. 3 HR's is 3 HR's, no matter how you phrase it, and I for one will not risk 3 HR's poofing because of golem bugs.

As for the breakpoint, it's 14+15 frames vs 13+15 frames, 29/28 = 1.0357 = +3.57% total damage. The speed increase isn't all that significant.

If you run pride golem where do you get your mana?

[Wizdomm]

then u lose 3 skill levels. Then you get into having to switch out cta for aokl to summon then switch back to bo.

If you read the intro, another vibrant point is its efficiency with only 1 set of gear without swapping out ANYTHING.

Having to swap out one piece of gear (AOKL) when I first raise my army is not a big deal. It's not like AOKL really takes up alot of space in your inventory/stash. And the 3 skill loss while carrying beast AFTER the skel army is raised is no big deal. 3 less skills to curses and CE. Whoopty doo. All those skills already would have insane range regardless.

[AnimeCraze]

If you run pride golem where do you get your mana?SoJ has more than enough mana already, and I am all for using wizzy to tele as well, despite the loss of +skills (convict souls convinced me of that), and if you still need more, hard points in energy. It's not like your setup has lots of mana to start with anyways.

[Wizdomm]

SoJ has more than enough mana already, and I am all for using wizzy to tele as well, despite the loss of +skills (convict souls convinced me of that), and if you still need more, hard points in energy. It's not like your setup has lots of mana to start with anyways.

All of the above plus....MANA POTS!!! :thumbsup:

[mephistophilis]

Having to swap out one piece of gear (AOKL) when I first raise my army is not a big deal. It's not like AOKL really takes up alot of space in your inventory/stash. And the 3 skill loss while carrying beast AFTER the skel army is raised is no big deal. 3 less skills to curses and CE. Whoopty doo. All those skills already would have insane range regardless.

then this build isnt for you. This play is extremely fast and running my own baals as fast as bot dins is no sweat. I run to nihilitaks temple, summon and bo, then tele baal and I have an advantage over bots when I get there cuz I can Kill faster. THis is my ladder climber. My ESCL is 98 this ladder (Third highest totally legit character-the res all use leechbots). and my HCL is 90 Atm.

All i ask is you keep your comments to yourself unless you try it. You (not you particular, but everyone) throws out these hypothetical arguments because you don't like change or you all are madly in love with the guy who wrote the 'Fishy" guide.

Try it. then if you find flaws come back and discuss. I've worked out every possible angle I could come up with and I've played this game since midnight on the night it hit the shelf. This is my culmination for necros and it serves your interest to try it (even if its on hero editor so you all dont lose your precious high runes in infinity).

[AnimeCraze]

All i ask is you keep your comments to yourself unless you try it. You (not you particular, but everyone) throws out these hypothetical arguments because you don't like change or you all are madly in love with the guy who wrote the 'Fishy" guide.Actually, I don't think you have read his guide. If you don't know already, he is an SP player, and started the basic ideas and strats of a summoner in 1.10. He is not a proponent of the beast/infinity/etc. (I mean, you would never have those stuff in SP, would you) By the way, a faith setup has been debated in this forum as well, as far as I remember.

[mephistophilis]

Actually, I don't think you have read his guide. If you don't know already, he is an SP player, and started the basic ideas and strats of a summoner in 1.10. He is not a proponent of the beast/infinity/etc. (I mean, you would never have those stuff in SP, would you) By the way, a faith setup has been debated in this forum as well, as far as I remember.

Nope I didn't. I did all my own work. Page one though people are saying "This is a FISHY with a faith" so I went and looked briefly at his guide but it was wayyyyy too long for me. Couldn't sit through it.

[Wizdomm]

Nope I didn't. I did all my own work. Page one though people are saying "This is a FISHY with a faith" so I went and looked briefly at his guide but it was wayyyyy too long for me. Couldn't sit through it.

And yet you ask all of us to take time to read and try out your guide. :shocked:

[AnimeCraze]

I actually have 1 more question:
If you are stressing so much on faster hit recovery, how about block rate? Even a pure vit build block (my sorc has something like 20% or so), unless you are not using a shield. The slow block rate can kill you since you can't tele. Because of this, I can't actually see the point of getting massive amount of faster hit recovery.

I had a vita sorc that was killed by block lock before, so...... It's not theoretical.

[mephistophilis]

And yet you ask all of us to take time to read and try out your guide. :shocked:

Im asking you to try it BEFORE you criticize.

I dont give a **** if you try it or even read it.

You just don't have the standing to criticize and dismiss it without trying.

I'm not criticizing his, Im saying its not his style even though people are saying it is with slight variation. And obviously I read the parts that people compared it to and its not very similar.


I actually have 1 more question:
If you are stressing so much on faster hit recovery, how about block rate? Even a pure vit build block, unless you are not using a shield. The slow block rate can kill you since you can't tele.


I have a 9% chance to block. Blocking for me is almost a joke. There's no point in worrying about faster block rate because I rarely block in the first place. Also, block rate is cut to 1/3 when you are moving. So if I get hit while walking around, I have the same chance to block as one of my skeletons with the shields.

[mephistophilis]

Alright so I just read through the 'Fishy'

That build is a solid, safe character.

My proposed build is fast. He states it takes a long time to even hit 92. Now with ubering 92 takes 4 hours so a new goal in 1.11 is to hit 95 in a week. Well I will tell you this model does that in no time just solo baaling.

That is a great guide for a slow playing necro. This is a much different style and I really urge you to try it out in hero editor.

[AnimeCraze]

This is a much different style and I really urge you to try it out in hero editor.I recommend you not to throw that word around here too often. It can get you banned.

[JayhawkFan]

LOL carin shard.

[mephiztophelez]

Regards,

Mephistophilis

go and get an original screen-name rather than making a pitiful attempt at stealing mine.

thanx and regards

mephiztophelez


edit: oh, and as for your "guide", i prefer my skellynec build. much cheaper and just as effective. (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=632493)

[sunflowersmooth]

lol this guy got exactly the responses I thought it would be based on the OP's opening statements.

My thoughts:
Although there is a lot of bashing and comparisons to the fishymancer...
this guide does suggest some unique differences (infinity golem, A1 merc with faith, an alternative weapon with a jewel keeping prebuff in mind, a spirit shield, no block, a focus on FHR, ect).

I mean how many different ways can you build a summoner that is still effective?
He changed it to make it unique and based on a different style of gameplay (speed)...accusing it of being a replicate of the fishy is pointless, of course it's going to be similar, skill distribution is essentially the same for this build regardless of what summon necro variant it is.

So really, I don't think it's alike the fishy in many regards, emphasizing different gear and style of gameplay.

I think it's an interesting idea overall.

But to the OP, your idea that your guide is perfect is arrogant...all great guides encourage a great deal of speculation and discussion. This is a more respectful community, but I don't blame people for attacking you because you provoked it. Clearly, if your ideas are different, then people will ask questions and debate why you think one option is better than the other. I don't think your build is perfect or amazing, I think it's unique, which is good.

But I mean c'mon guys, the OP is a passionate player who is putting a new spin on an old idea...although not all of us want to make an IG infinity knowing it could disappear, and I have problems with the formatting of this guide, I recognize his D2 passion. We need more of that around here.

[AnimeCraze]

Actually, fishy is a term that is abused nowadays to mean all summoners. The idea of faith merc itself is somewhat interesting, (as I do it with a chaos zon too, also because of IM) but claiming it to be the best is simply asking for it (it isn't, since if it is not the best for zons, it's probably not the best for necros, as skeletons have less ED, and that there's a weapon damage difference between WF and faith). Anyways, if it is perfect, then defend it with rigor, facts, and numbers, like how one would defend a thesis or something.

[stephan]

Lets repeat this- Yes there is a delay/cap Whatever you want to call it. But the damage from reaching higher frames is given to you. your skeletons do more damage from level 15 fanat. And not just because of the 6 levels of extra % damage, but also because you hit a (theoretical) higher break point!
Stop hammering on this. The difference is 500 damage per second at level 40 RS/SM devided over all your skeletons. You cannot possibly argue that this is one of your main selling points.

[AnimeCraze]

Stop hammering on this. The difference is 500 damage per second at level 40 RS/SM devided over all your skeletons. You cannot possibly argue that this is one of your main selling points.Actually, it's more than that, according to the skill calc anyways. 11283-9790=1493. Though, lvl 20 might + lvl 9 fanat gives 14772 (even just lvl 20 might gives 11211, though w/o any AR bonus).

[stephan]

Actually, it's more than that, according to the skill calc anyways. 11283-9790=1493. Though, lvl 20 might + lvl 9 fanat gives 14772 (even just lvl 20 might gives 11211, though w/o any AR bonus).
My numbers included a level 18 might for the non-Fana setup.


level 18 might (level 87 merc), level 40 RS/RM = 10830 DPS
level 15 fana, level 40 RS/RM = 11284 DPS.

[McCain123]

I just have to make some comments on this. Your main idea is to get rid of the act 2 merc that tends to kill himself under the influence on IM. A Faith merc from a1 will handle this, I agree, but it will just create different problems. Insight IG players have accepted the fact, that they have to keep Insights on stash, as your golem sometimes disappears for no specific reason. Loosing 4 crap runes is no big deal, loosing two Ber, Ist and Mal is something that even richer players will want to avoid.

A few things however will not give your Summoner build a lot of fans:
- Your arrogant attitude. Your build is different not necessarily better and telling people that they have no clue as one of your first actions here, will not net you fans.

- The forum with the fg doesn´t have the best reputition here aswell, so giving indication about costs in fg is a bad idea. Apart from that, prizes vary from realm to realm.

- Soj or BK3 as poor mans gear? Get real, those cost more than the 10% rings you mention as middle class gear and sometimes more than the rich mans variant.

[NumtyDoo]

I think you guys nailed it, the wording of the guide has put everyone on the offensive.

Versatility wise it appears to be a good build. I think what everyone is disputing is the uberness. The guides item selection gives less aura benefit/damage than what we are all used to using, as Stephan proved with the pet calculations. The guides item selection leaves you with lower +skills so minions do less base damage, and the CE radius is less than what we are used to. The act 1 merc does much less damage, has less CB, and what CB the act 1 merc does have is nerfed by being a ranged attack. So with the exception of IM areas, this build is weaker than what we currently use.

I have pondered on this for a couple of days now and I had an epiphany (I am sure that epiphany is spelled wrong).

It is clear through calculations and experience, damage wise, this guide is weaker than what we are used to, but does it really matter? Example; I stopped using beast a while back for HoTo because I found in low player count games (less than 5) beast didn't help because I was actually "too uber", so over uber in fact, that not prebuffing with AOKL and getting rid of beast had no effect in killing speed in games less than 5 players, it does help alot in 8 player games and with ubers though.

So in theory if every monster has 5k life and I am doing 10k damage, I can make some changes that make my life easier, but now I only do 6k damage, I am still doing so much "over uber" damage that the change will not be noticed because I am still doing over the total damage needed for a one hit kill.

So maybe instead of refering to his character as "Most Uber", which we have proven that it is not, it should be "Uber Enough, and in the right ways". I believe that in a perfect world and not in 8 player games this character may actually be able to out pace our Fishy's that we are used to. The main problem with this is that it is completely item dependant, most fishy's can still "own" with lesser gear, this guide's fishy will not. Also, without the aid of the OP's hero editor no one will ever make an Infinity golem, it is just too expensive, I am fairly E-wealthy and it is still too rich for my blood. Without the infinity golem the build is severly nerfed.

So in conclusion, I believe the OP's character as is, while not "Most Uber", is more than uber enough to achieve everything that we are achieving and maybe a little more. However, unlike the fishy's that we are used to, which are very item flexable, this build loses effectiveness quickly with item substitutions. Also, as mentioned, the infinity golem is not really a useable skill, which further nerf's the build. But if you are playing SP, and have the hero editor (which no one should use), or are so rich infinity's grow on trees, he may have created the the most versatile build yet.

[ISawYouTry]

Read more closely. There is not a cap, there is a 15 frame *delay*.

Bring realistic numbers from the pet calc and show us the big difference. Or, shall I do it? Ok:

level 18 might (level 87 merc), level 40 RS/RM = 10830 DPS
level 15 fana, level 40 RS/RM = 11284 DPS.

Well wooptiewoo, that's worth losing an Infinity Golem for.

Your 'assessment' of an act 2 merc's survivability is also completely off IMHO.

Did you address the amount of times you will hit more due to the drop in defense? Also if you play with mages then the -res from conviction is godly for you. And corpse explosion iirc is half fire damage. :'D And that math doesn't include the possibility of using a beast on your character to gain fanaticism, with the might merc. seeing as you dont need to with the faith merc.

I don't see any problem with speed and those statements about saying if a character is slow no one likes/will play it is very bold. Summon necros well played can make it through hell without gear and that alone gives me reason to believe they are popular to some people. And you really think that will be fast? Either way i don't have any problem with speed on mine and it has no problem with any areas of the game including sanctuary and what not (:

I like banana.

[stephan]

Did you address the amount of times you will hit more due to the drop in defense? Also if you play with mages then the -res from conviction is godly for you.
Nothing prevents you from putting an infinity on the act 2 merc when the other option is making an IG out of it. The difference in CtH will be marginal.

[ISawYouTry]

But you're closing the option out of the iron golem from the act 2 merc side as well as I mostly play nonladder and I do a lot of trist runs so having the golem die isn't fun. (: I use medi golem / pride golems. Its da bomb.

[stephan]

But you're closing the option out of the iron golem from the act 2 merc side as well as I mostly play nonladder and I do a lot of trist runs so having the golem die isn't fun. (: I use medi golem / pride golems. Its da bomb.
I'm not sure if I understood the comment. What am I closing out?

[ISawYouTry]

Your defense doesnt bring in the fact the I get an iron golem which i can use too. I'm not saying the build is bad, i have actually spent the last half an hour getting all th gear to try it, but with a pride iron golem and infinity on your merc you should see significant damage in relation to a infin golem and faith merc

[NumtyDoo]

I'm not for sure what ISawYouTry is trying to say but maybe this will help. Stephan didn't put it in the calculation because both builds can use infinity so both get the benefit of it, so it kind of cansels out, no need to put it in the equation.

Skellies have quite good CtH against regular mobs, the only time you will notice the increased CtH is against bosses. Infinity for sure helps with mages and CE, but I don't think anyone is arguing against that.

I think what ISawYouTry is saying is that with the standard setup that everyone uses you get more ED than this special build, might/conv/fana and might/conv/fana/conc will do more damage than fana/conv. I think that Stephan was backing that up noy arguing it. I think Stephans argument was the damage between a might merc's might aura and lvl 15 fana comes out barely noticeable and that is before the lvl 9 fana from beast.

I hope that answers your question/statement, because I am not sure what you were saying.

[AnimeCraze]

My numbers included a level 18 might for the non-Fana setup.


level 18 might (level 87 merc), level 40 RS/RM = 10830 DPS
level 15 fana, level 40 RS/RM = 11284 DPS.Oh, I was comparing straight off lvl 9 beast and lvl 15 faith.

[ISawYouTry]

Ya, something like that. (: The usual build is built to max out damage for your skeletons, which plays slower because you yourself are less survivable.

This build loses some of that but utilizes the max FcR and a good fhr (:
Which for the most part makes it better for all around play. The max damage is imo better if you are doing ubers, but aside from clone/trist hunting this seems to be a good build :D.

[stephan]

Your defense doesnt bring in the fact the I get an iron golem which i can use too. I'm not saying the build is bad, i have actually spent the last half an hour getting all th gear to try it, but with a pride iron golem and infinity on your merc you should see significant damage in relation to a infin golem and faith merc
I'm advocating for the act 2 merc as well, so I'm not sure if we are in disagreement. :smiley:

[ISawYouTry]

Also the "do not put point into dim vision, atract, confuse on final build" is only partly right, you should always have 1 point dim vision. It helps in so many situations and basically nutures anything outside of your screen.

[mephistophilis]

My proclamation:

1) The Summoner as it was built before focused on damage potential when it really didn't need to. The summoner is the strongest character in the game. We don't need to add 3 damage enhancing auras (conc, might, fanat) and conviction to it to be effective. We need a balance between playability and damage. This is precisely the reason why people play sorcs and hammerdins over Summoners. The sorcs and dins don't have more damage (in most cases a summoner is more effective) they just have more playability features.

WE want the summoner to be the premier character. My focus was on ENOUGH damage and Maxed out playability features.

So you guys dont like the site that gets you massive stuff dirt cheap and thats fine, I think you should because you would be a lot more liberal in your play since you could get better gear cheap and have more fun.

On that note, I also play classic and once a month my buddies and I start a new character to run through the whole game without x-fering anything. What you find is what you use. So I still have that fun, but to do that every day gets extremely boring (especially when you are playing against kids who just dropped $150 on their new Java-Zon and come to rub it in).

To the kid who said I stole his name: First of all, nice spelling. Good work there. Second Read Marlowe's Dr Faustus for reasoning. And by the way its also my B-Net account that I've had for 4 years. So lets not go there.

Everyone else: I am sorry I put you on the offensive. This was my first post on this site and I am use to JSP People who absolutely LOVE my guides (after trying it out of course. that is one thing I will give them over you guys) so I was cocky in my own right from past experience with peoples critique.

To complement you, your arguments are more thought out and a better debate, but unfortunately none of you have really tried it out yet and that makes me sad.

And I don't get how saying hero editor will get me kicked off much less do I care. Hero editor is an excellent way to try out a character before you build it on closed realms. It's the single greatest tool for trying new things.

So I stand by my build 100% with absolutely NO alterations whatsoever. At this point The only things I will respond to are posts of people who try it out (via real bnet or hero editor) because every hypothetical argument has been made and I promise you all you will change your mind when you build the character.

The only variation I would deem viable is Switching out Carin for Hoto and Magefists for Frostburn Gloves. Even then you will need mana potions but most people here don't mind that it seems. I hate using potions so I don't use this setup.


Thanks for all your feedback whether negative or positive. A special thanks to the few people who considered this and may have attempted it before commenting--those are the people who deserve the most props because they at least could see past my 'arrogance' and listened to what I have to say.

I was not trying to disrespect anyone. All I was doing was posting something you all needed. A fresh perspective on an old character. All your summoner guides stickied are slower by playability and focus on maximized (unnecessary) damage.

Every summoner can uber. Someone said you need max damage for this. I say you don't. With 15 Skeletons. 10 Mages, and 22 Udars I have cleared ubers in under 2 minutes. I am not appealing to 10% of the game over 90%. I am appealing to 98% of the game over 2% (Baal and Diablo die faster ONLY when I don't have udars--if I do then I kill as fast as A2 Merc).

I have had 1 iggy poof on my in all my years of D2. It doesnt happen as you are all saying it does. I have never had one mysteriously Poof this ladder. Pay attention and he wont die. Its not that big of a deal. And its E-Items for god sake. Who cares. Its not like I am asking you to spend 10 bucks if he dies. Just go on jsp and get em cheap.

So please take this as an apology, and at the same time a wake up call. I've admitted I was wrong in my approach but my principles stand. My build is better on a playability level. I was a big man, now you be one and try it before you attack it anymore.

[Mad Mantis]

So you guys dont like the site that gets you massive stuff dirt cheap and thats fine.

Actually it's Da Rules (http://forums.diabloii.net/rules/), specifically rule 5; Thou Shalt Not Pimp or aid the Pimping of hacks, Cheats or Farming.




And I don't get how saying hero editor will get me kicked off much less do I care.

Again I refer to Da Rules (http://forums.diabloii.net/rules/), specifically rule 5; Thou Shalt Not Pimp or aid the Pimping of hacks, Cheats or Farming.

It is great that you want to spend time in discussion over at this site, but remember the rules.

[AnimeCraze]

Well, anyone wants to try it out? I don't have too much wealth on ladder, and I certainly do not want to make an infinity iron golem on NL, even though I can afford one. (how many HR's are infinity in NL? 10? 20?) Unless, of course, somebody wants to hand me one for free......

[JayhawkFan]

To complement you, your arguments are more thought out and a better debate, but unfortunately none of you have really tried it out yet and that makes me sad.

So please take this as an apology, and at the same time a wake up call. I've admitted I was wrong in my approach but my principles stand. My build is better on a playability level. I was a big man, now you be one and try it before you attack it anymore.

Maybe some people on this forum havent tried YOUR summoner but trust me, a lot of the players who post here have played a necro that uses CE and summons. They usually dont vary that much unless you have or dont have an enigma. To say your's is best is an opinion. An opinion that apparently only you have about your guide.

[mephiztophelez]

To the kid who said I stole his name: First of all, nice spelling. Good work there. Second Read Marlowe's Dr Faustus for reasoning. And by the way its also my B-Net account that I've had for 4 years. So lets not go there.

lolz.

the correct spelling is actually Mephistopheles, a ye-olde worlde term for the devil. i substituted in the Z's because b.net won't let you create a character with "mephisto" somewhere in the name.

and i have read Dr Faustus, although i admit it's been about 15 years since i did so.


I was not trying to disrespect anyone.
calling me "kid" is highly disrespectful and overall keeps with the tone of absolute superiority you seem to have effected. just FYI: i'm most likely older than you are, so keep you base and pathetic insults to yourself.

again: get your own screen name please. i have a bit of a reputation around these parts as a legit player (by which i mean the Barons Bazaar definition of legit, not the jsp definition). i certainly don't want to be blamed for/associated with for this kinds of dupe-whore guides.

you appear incapable of accepting criticism, perhaps you are too used to the sycophancy on your average jsp member to be able to tolerate the kind of well thought-out shredding that 99% of guides posted on these forums invariably get subjected to.

[mephistophilis]

1) the proper spelling depends on the version of the book you read.

2) Your shredding has no grounds because the basis of your criticism is comparing this build to one that caters to a completely different style of play.

First thing you have to do is accept that.

And your name is awful with the z's. I really dont care what you have to say. Untill someone tries this and gives feedback that warrants proper debate, you wont see me on this ****ty forum again. You guys have no imaginations.

[AnimeCraze]

Untill someone tries this and gives feedback that warrants proper debate, you wont see me on this ****ty forum again. You guys have no imaginations.You do not have to try a build to give a proper debate. I mean, if I claim that a barb with dual 6x zod crystal sword, 4 zod armor, 3 zod helm is the best thing in the world......, would you believe it? I suppose you will call me crazy for even suggesting such a thing. Certainly, you are not going to try it, right? So, don't use people not trying your build as your sole defense.

By the way, imagination merely suggests a method. Rigorous proof (and or scientific testing, depending on your field) irons it out and prove it works.

[mephistophilis]

You do not have to try a build to give a proper debate. I mean, if I claim that a barb with dual 6x zod crystal sword, 4 zod armor, 3 zod helm is the best thing in the world......, would you believe it? I suppose you will call me crazy for even suggesting such a thing. So, don't use people not trying your build as your defense, especially when it's your sole defense.

By the way, imagination merely suggests a method. Rigorous proof (and or scientific testing, depending on your field) irons it out and prove it works.

How are you supposed to test it if you don't try it.

Theoretical defenses only go so far when it comes to a video game.

Sure the math says A pride golem with an insight might merc and beast on your person does more damage.

Again I go back to saying, this is a build that does ENOUGH damage to be very effective and it adds another element that makes the build better than its predecessors-- speed and character involvement.


Try it is my only defense because thats all it takes.

You guys can do all the calculations you want in your hypothetical runs. Ill just stick to trying it in the game. But I forgot, you are all too cheap to sacrifice an infinity and too whipped by bnet to download hero editor.

[AnimeCraze]

You guys can do all the calculations you want in your hypothetical runs. Ill just stick to trying it in the game. But I forgot, you are all too cheap to sacrifice an infinity and too whipped by bnet to download hero editor.Well, you can give me an infinity that I can golem on west NL......, I have all the other pieces except for skillers (which I can trade for).

Anyways, if you haven't realized, there are 2 setups that you need to "defend" against (to show why it's superior).
1) Pure damage setup, which you claim is unnecessary. I will take your word on that.
2) Lamerdin based setup, with beast on switch and AoKL prebuff, and not worry so much about the CtA (or heck even CtA on switch if you think the damage is enough, as might merc's damage increase isn't really worse than the faith). Wizzy +2x SoJ would give enough mana, and it's only 1 less skeleton than HotO (or even use HotO if you already have enough mana). Of course, you can still use faith merc if you fear IM. This is actually what I am interested in.

By the way, since a program is a logical construct, theoretical defense is the ultimate defense, if all elements of it can be accounted for. :wink3:

[mephistophilis]

By the way, since a program is a logical construct, theoretical defense is the ultimate defense, if all elements of it can be accounted for. :wink3:

I use to agree. But what are you proving by doing a theoretical test?

Exactly what we already know.

A2 merc set up does more damage.

That does NOT mean game play will be better.

If you are trying to prove the best game play you need not focus on overkill of damage but mobility, vitality, energy consumption, and damage as a combination rather than a single element that is more valuable than any other.

That was the system I was using and the reason I came up with this gear set. It beat out hoto, wizzy and every other combination as the most efficient match up of the above outlined criteria.

[AnimeCraze]

That was the system I was using and the reason I came up with this gear set. It beat out hoto, wizzy and every other combination as the most efficient match up of the above outlined criteria.The problem is you merely claimed it. You never clearly explained it. For example, a necro circlet w/ 10+ FCR, 2 skills, and 2x shael can also easily hit your FCR and FHR breakpoints, and in the end has more resist to boot. Why would this circlet not beat your setup, be as detailed as possible.

[mephistophilis]

The problem is you merely claimed it. You never clearly explained it. For example, a necro circlet w/ 10+ FCR, 2 skills, and 2x shael can also easily hit your FCR and FHR breakpoints, and in the end has more resist to boot. Why would this circlet not beat your setup, be as detailed as possible.

For one thing I put several choices in here to balance the price to that of a a2 merc rocker. A circlet is a lot more expensive than a shako.

If you use the 2/20 circ it will also need mana (remember we are trying to get a lot of mana) Yes both shako and Carin do not count towards the Bo able mana but you also need to consider that if you take the +% from hoto with no mana on your circlet you are going to come up much shorter in the mana department than the 250 shako/carin offer.

So then you substitute Carin for Hoto (another major expense) and You gain skill and fcr. Now you can wear Maras and get more resistance. You could also take away a fcr ring and wear soj (another expense). then you lose strength from your fcr ring (again a good circ will have that but your price went up again).

So now you have a very limited base mana and you add an soj and +15% mana from hoto and +20% from soj. You also might have added about 60 mana on your circlet and 20 mana from soj. Now you have 80 mana thats bo'able +35% of that so call that even 170 (to be generous) and you STILL lose more mana than the other way and you just spent a fortune on a gg circlet, hoto, maras and an soj.

Obviously if you use Insight golem this isnt an issue but when you have no real mana booster like meditation, you lose mana a lot faster if you dont have it piled on. Im not saying hoto/circ/maras/soj don't work. Im just saying my way optimizes every possible scenario.

Also, if you get a rare circlet, you will only be able to shael it once (unless you have the god of all circlets and you have a good rare 2 os circlet). That means you will need to sacrifice 2 res all scs for fhr scs. Obviously that isnt as much of an issue since you gain res elsewhere.

[AnimeCraze]

You forgot 3 fixes.
1) mana charms (you have more free space because of the setup, you need less resist)
2) mana pots
3) hard points in energy

[mephistophilis]

You forgot 3 fixes.
1) mana charms (you have more free space because of the setup, you need less resist)
2) mana pots
3) hard points in energy

I guess, but then you want to spend a fortune on those items just to have to use mana potions or energy points?

The mana charms are an ok choice but wouldnt you rather more mf or more life if you have freed up space?

I think energy points/pots/charms are more of a burden than a fix especially when you are asking to substitute easy to find gear for extremely pricey items like a really nice necro circ.

Nothing should have to be 'Fixed' on a really outstandingly geared character.

[AnimeCraze]

Well, if you think about it, the crain shard is also a fix on the FHR. I mean, no reason to use it instead of HotO if that's what you care about.

[mephistophilis]

Well, if you think about it, the crain shard is also a fix on the FHR. I mean, no reason to use it instead of HotO if that's what you care about.

Ok so you continue to use carin but now you lose shako. By doing that, you lose 2 skills for teleport bringing your cost to cast back up. You also lose 2 skills for Bo and BC. Yes you make those up with maras, but then you lose mana and mana regen that you would get automatically on a fcr Ammy.

You also have the ability to get some really nice mf out of shako. This is afterall a pvm build. even if you IST your circlet, you come up short against shako.


Not to mention your circlet (even if it has 90 mana) is going to bring your mana up a little higher than shako would, but to make up for the life shako has you are going to need to have that on your circ too. I hear the cashregister going off for a Necro circ that has

2 necro
20 fcr
Life
Mana
Strength
Resistance

[AnimeCraze]

Ok so you continue to use carin but now you lose shako.You misunderstood me. I am saying that the reason why carin is used at all is because you wanted higher FHR, which to me is simply a fix, just like how mana charms is a fix.

[mephistophilis]

You misunderstood me. I am saying that the reason why carin is used at all is because you wanted higher FHR, which to me is simply a fix, just like how mana charms is a fix.

No its not a fix. There isnt a bad feature on it.

It has
Life
Mana
Skills
Replenish Life
FHR.
+ability to get open socket.

Its not a fix, its an optimal piece of equipment.

What does hoto have?
Dex
Damage to demons
Attack Rating to Demons
Mana Leech
Raven Charges
Oak Charges (too low to be a viable oak in hell)

thats 6 Useless mods.

Sure it has 5 good ones
but
Carin has 6 useful ones.

(they share +50% damage to undead as a useless mod so I didn't include that)

The ONLY wand that is better than Carin does not exist on ANY realm to my knowledge because the only way to get it is roll an elite wand with 6 perfect skulls 5 times

That is
2 Necro
+3 RS
+3 SM
20 FCR
Life
Mana
2 Open socket

Rare wand.

With that you could get fhr/res jewels and you'd have the ideal wand. But since thats like 1 of a kind, we need to base the build off something a little more practical.

[mephiztophelez]

Untill someone tries this and gives feedback that warrants proper debate, you wont see me on this ****ty forum again.
goodbye, good riddance. i doubt you'll be missed.

if you can't accept the perfectly reasonable criticisms levelled at your build, don't post builds.

seriously, reccommending an infinity iron golem, that i can almost understand, but recommending a 2/20fcr ammy for a PVM BUILD? thats just ridiculous. especially for a summoner.

go back to your sycophants at jsp if you can't handle it here.

all your doing at jsp is making taulbourg richer.

[mephistophilis]

goodbye, good riddance. i doubt you'll be missed.

if you can't accept the perfectly reasonable criticisms levelled at your build, don't post builds.

seriously, reccommending an infinity iron golem, that i can almost understand, but recommending a 2/20fcr ammy for a PVM BUILD? thats just ridiculous. especially for a summoner.

go back to your sycophants at jsp if you can't handle it here.

all your doing at jsp is making taulbourg richer.

Believe me, If I could find a better site, I wouldnt be on jsp. Paul is an absolute dbag. But the style of the forum is better than here even though the mods totally suck.

I would wear a 2/10 ammy with other mods if I could find my 2/3/3/20 rare wand but I cant so I am forced into my 2/20 ammy.


If you arent going to build it to try it, at least come up with specific reasons why your ideas are better. I just showed you why Carin/shako is better than hoto/rare circlet.

[mephiztophelez]

Believe me, If I could find a better site, I wouldnt be on jsp. Paul is an absolute dbag. But the style of the forum is better than here even though the mods totally suck.
bugger off back to jsp if the "style is better"


I would wear a 2/10 ammy with other mods if I could find my 2/3/3/20 rare wand but I cant so I am forced into my 2/20 ammy.
huh? your not "forced" into a 2/20 ammy. you CHOOSE to use a 2/20 ammy.

if I had a +2nec/20fcr ammy, i would be using it on a pvp bone or poison build (or trading it off for something stupendous), not a pvm summoner who can solo their way to guardian without an ammy at all.

you don't "need" a 2/3/3/20 wand either. in fact, you don't need ANY equipment at all on a skellynec for any part of regular play (granted, i wouldn't take a naked summoner in to tackle uber trist).


If you arent going to build it to try it, at least come up with specific reasons why your ideas are better. I just showed you why Carin/shako is better than hoto/rare circlet.

no, i'm not going to build it. i have a summoner i'm quite happy with tyvm, i even posted a link to it. it probably cost me less than a HR to build. he started with whatever i had laying around and i slowly built up his gear as i found better stuff to use on him. these days, he's pretty gosu.

to be honest, the only thing in your build i think is downright "wrong" is failing to max out Corpse Explosion. on a pvm build, corpse explosion is the best area-clearing skill in the entire game. to my mind, giving it a measly single point is nerfing your overall effectivness in a big way.

using things like infinity iron golems and faith mercs and 2/20 ammy's is surplus to requirements and, in all, totally uneccessary. summoners certainly don't need that kind of kit to be effective. if i was into the whole "turning runewords into golems" side of things, i'd make an insight golem instead of an infinity one. thats at least acheivable by players who choose to avoid the dupestream.

overall, it's more your holier-than-thou, i-am-the-all-knowing-one-to-disagree-is-to-invite-hellfire-and-brimstone attitude which is getting you offside than anything else.

that and using a screenname very, very similar to mine.

so listen up, KID, either accept that the criticisms of your build have merit, or bugger off back to taulbourg. i'm sure he'd love to sell you some FG. (on that note, a LOT of members here are here because this forum does NOT condone the trading of pixels for ca$h. this forum also does not condone the use of hax. unlike jsp whos whole raison d'etre is the selling of both hacks and pixels. (for real profit. fairly solid rumour put taulbourgs monthly profit from jsp at ~$50,000+ during D2's heydays))

[mephistophilis]

You are so stuck on NEED.

OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN RUN THE GAME NAKED THATS NOT THE POINT!

ITS NOT A 2 NECRO/20fcr AMMY its a 2 SUMMONS/20 FCR AMMY.

USE THAT ON YOUR BONER.

The point is not to make a scavanger. The point is to make a maximized efficiency model summoner. So gtfo if you cant understand the logic cuz right now you are acting more noobish than anyone I have ever met on a forum.

[mephiztophelez]

The point is not to make a scavanger. The point is to make a maximized efficiency model summoner. So gtfo if you cant understand the logic cuz right now you are acting more noobish than anyone I have ever met on a forum.
there are several ways "efficiency" can be defined.

for some, efficiency is determined by the amount of %MF they can carry, for others, it's how survivable the build is, for some it's how cheap the build is. for others, it's how many runeworded itamz they can cram into their build.

as i've said before, this forum isn't populated by sycophants who will go "oooh, ahhh" over any build guide published. this forum has a proud tradition of shredding pretty much every build guide posted. sensible guide writers listen to the criticisms and accept there is more than one way to do pretty much anything.

you, however, seem to be stuck on the idea that your way is the only way and your build is the best build.

IT ISN'T. it's merely ONE way of doing things.

if you can't accept perfectly reasonable criticism, gtfo yourself. i doubt this forum is going to change it's habit on the screening of guides anytime soon. certainly not at the behest of a 22 post member who seems determined to ignore any and all reasonable advice offered.

"Incontestable Greatness" you called this build. well, it is most definatly contestable how much "greatness" this build offers.


ITS NOT A 2 NECRO/20fcr AMMY its a 2 SUMMONS/20 FCR AMMY.

USE THAT ON YOUR BONER.

you state quite clearly in your "rich mans setup" the following:


Amulet: 2 Necro (or Summons)/20 Faster Cast Rate/Strength if you can get it


aside from offering no alternatives, you havn't stated anywhere, that i can see, that YOUR ammy is +2summon instead of +2nec.

now go back to your sycophants at taulbourgs place if all you want is a bunch of gushy "ooh, ahhhs, infinity golems are gosu" replies to your build ideas.

in any event, congrats, you have just joined Ce Olba on my ignore list.

well done, child. Olba had over 3000 posts and is acknowledged (even by me) as being very knowledgeable about D2 and various builds (BvC's especially). it took him WEEKS to piss me off to the point i added him to my /ignore list.

you'r obviously adept at making friends and influencing people. kid.

[mephistophilis]

I never said there wasnt other ways to do it. You have you head up your *** if you think that. I said this was the best.

Efficiency is maximizing your overall potential as a character. a perfect balance of EVERYTHING. Find a better gearset for that and Ill leave. till then **** you.

[Wizdomm]

now go back to your sycophants at taulbourgs place if all you want is a bunch of gushy "ooh, ahhhs, infinity golems are gosu" replies to your build ideas.

LOL. I went to d2jsp to check out his posts over there. Did a quick search for his username in google and got this same guide over there and ALOT of negative replies there....basically due to his attitude. The guy calls every other summons necro build a "cookie-cutter crap necro."

He knows how to make friends.

[mephiztophelez]

I said this was the best.
and others have disagreed with you. a fact you seem incapable of dealing with.


Efficiency is maximizing your overall potential as a character. a perfect balance of EVERYTHING. Find a better gearset for that and Ill leave. till then **** you.
"efficiency" in a computer game is a subjective measure depending on the individuals goals.

from here on, i'll contempt you with the ignore you deserve.


LOL. I went to d2jsp to check out his posts over there. Did a quick search for his username in google and got this same guide over there and ALOT of negative replies there....basically due to his attitude. The guy calls every other summons necro build a "cookie-cutter crap necro."
i'd rather avoid jsp altogether thanks.


He knows how to make friends.
so i gathered.

[AnimeCraze]

Sure it has 5 good ones
but
Carin has 6 useful ones.
With that you could get fhr/res jewels and you'd have the ideal wand. But since thats like 1 of a kind, we need to base the build off something a little more practical.It's not the number of mods that counts, it's how good the mods are. I mean, enigma is still better than every armor out there even if it has only 1 single mod, teleport. HotO has a few ridiculously good mods, while carin only has more OK mods.
LOL. I went to d2jsp to check out his posts over there. Did a quick search for his username in google and got this same guide over there and ALOT of negative replies there....basically due to his attitude. The guy calls every other summons necro build a "cookie-cutter crap necro."

He knows how to make friends.Ouch!

[IntellectSucks]

Look man, I think your build is a pretty damn good build but even I'm getting a little irritated at your constant insistance that this is the BEST summoner build. It's the best for YOUR play style. Not everyone will play the game the way you do. I play a summoner who focuses on WAY different things than you do and I'm perfectly content to sit in the back as my minions rip the monster mobs apart, even if it takes longer. If I want to tele around really quickly and do lots of damage, I'll play my light sorc. Nothing against your play style, just that it's not the reason why I specifically play a summoner. I think a lot of people have given valid points as to areas where this build would not fit THEIR play style. You've defended every one of your choices for every aspect of your build mutiple times. By this point everyone has made up their mind. If some people don't think that your build is the greatest, who cares?
Anyway, I think that everyone in this thread needs to chill out a little.

[McCain123]

So you guys dont like the site that gets you massive stuff dirt cheap and thats fine, I think you should because you would be a lot more liberal in your play since you could get better gear cheap and have more fun.

I think that was adressed to me, so it deserves an answer. It is incredible easy to make profit on a site where there are so many clueless kids. I know it, because I have made some profit there and equipped my SC chars with all that elite stuff. Afterwards I realized, that the game had become boring, because I had all I could need and just sold everything I found. I switched to HC and in the new environment I was dirt poor and you know what? It felt great to get that first Shako, Occulus or other stuff, that would have given me absolutely no satisfaction in SC.

[slimejocke]

I would use AoKL to summon, then switch to something more useful, like HotO, or even wizard spike. Carin shard doesn't have the resist to make it remotely useful IMO.

Noob Question: JWhy do people use AOKL to summon when you switch don't the summons dissappear?

[Greyeagle]

Noob Question: JWhy do people use AOKL to summon when you switch don't the summons dissappear?

I hate to bring this thread to the top, so I suggest followup questions be posted in a new topic.

While the extra summons you can make disappear, the remaining ones retain their extra life/damage. So, it is the extra life/damage people are looking for.

[HafidzMD]

Hmm.. I used to play a fast-paced summoner as primary attack, tele on top of monsters to and at the same time cast bonespears ( I had skillpoints leftovers :P), once I had two or three corpses, I CE till everything cleans.

It was very very quick baal runs, as time of essence, hence I was top 2 necro on battlenet to reach level 99 (those were the days). Most of the time, everyone just tag along and I did all the killings. I had stopped D2 eversince.

During that time, this was 1.10; (and I know you would contest the marrowglitch and all, I was both a summoner and caster, and FCR was never an issue, even for those quick teleport to Throne).

I had an Act2 Merc and IM was the major problem but it happend 5% of the time and I think only say 50% of the 5% was a really major problem. In PvM, getting the first two corpse is not that hard and you can survive with <100 FCR)

My gear selection was more conservative and when you had done >4000 baal runs I had all the gear I wanted, through trading and all.

I did use Hoto, SoJ, Enigma, Shako, Mara, Arachnid. It was very quick and safe clearing crowded TPs especially with the clay golem. I remember a few occasions at 98 when surrounded by frenzy axe monsters (forgot their names already) and FHR wasnt of much problem really since the skellys would be my shield on teleing. The bigger problem (>75% of the time) is the skellys bug where when I tellied, they stayed at one location and my necro was on top and will get the first hit.

I never really had major issues on mana potions (this is with 0 in energy) because during lower levels I used the meditation polearm and changed to pride later, but was unhappy and I sticked to meditation.

Anyways, I think your Act 1 Merc is of Ok choice but I hate Act 1 Merc because they take their time because they will need a few seconds getting to safe location after u tele and then start shooting compared to Act 2.

And if your playing HC, the more tanks you have the better. You can never have more tanks. Heck, if I wouldnt trade my tank for anything. Especially because you would be teleing close to monsters.

[Damae]

I'm of the school of thought in D2 that instead of number crunching all day long, you should try builds out yourself. I have a feeling that many of those number crunchers leave many aspects of a build out of the equation. Pure DPS numbers are not the only defining factor in a good necro build.

I just tried this build on open BNet and I have to say that it's EXTREMELY impressive PvM-wise. I tried dueling a wind druid and got my *** handed to me (which sucked cuz I lost that infinity golem), but no matter. Running Chaos was pretty much the equivalent to running around in the norm Blood Moor; your summons devour anything in sight. Also, to people who were whining about the dreaded FIRST BODY, your golem and a1 merc are also a force to be reckoned with and getting those bodies takes mere seconds. I was actually expecting her to just be a "walking aura", but she can easily take out Champion Venom Lords in a few seconds (by herself). Diablo himself was a joke.

My beef with this build comes from the act 1 merc, but not in a way that's been mentioned here (probably because too many people were busy number crunching to do any real tests, tsk tsk). The problem comes when the merc gets too far away from the action; the fanaticism/thorns auras no longer affect the party. This sucks because it's hard to get her back in the game when she's happily shooting monsters and not getting hit. When you try to tele to adjust, you run into the problem of your summons having to get back into killing mode which sucks with a bunch of angry oblivion knights surrounding you and already in attack mode.

The other problem I'm having is with the bugginess of multiple auras on the merc. I equip bramble first, then the faith bow, but USUALLY only the last one you equip will take effect. A few (wonderful) times, both were activated, which made the party even more fun.

An important thing to note is that you are NOT invincible by any means. Teleing into a pack of monsters is extremely dangerous, and what I like about this build is that it requires a lot more thinking than most necro builds. You need to tele then RUN, especially when the thought of shelling out for 2 more ber runes hangs over your head. Also, don't get cocky and try to duel anyone (or try to be brave if some *** hostiles you). This is not not not not NOT a PvP build at ALL and I guarantee you'll regret it when that golem dies.

So, in conclusion, this build is very impressive. It's expensive, yes (I wouldn't make it at the beginning of ladder, that's for sure), but for people who want an exciting and fun necro build that's pretty unique, this build won't let you down.

[lumpor]

I DO agree that this build can run bosses and chaos sanc faster than a standard summoner. I DO agree that aura golems are fun, I DO agree that faith is underrated.

And I actually DO agree that nightfish is overrated.

However, most people don't use summonancers for running bosses or chaos sanctuary. Many use them for the pits, or ubers, or just playing around.
The faster cast rate is indeed good to have, no denying that. But aside from running bosses, I wouldn't sacrifice this:

My golem spot
Lots of damage and crushing blow on merc
Lots of skeleton damage
+skills

For:
a 3,6% faster skeleton attack speed
a 11,12 faster cast rate
a 17% faster hit recovery (all of those values were rounded up)
Iron maiden immunity for merc

In normal pvm play that is. No doubt those breakpoints and im immunity are good when bossrunning or doing chaos sanctuary, but for most of the game, those are luxuries, that aren't worth the sacrifices.

I think the guide would be good to have for those doing bossruns or chaosruns, but saying your guide is the best and thrashing other guides is not a good read for those who respect the forums.

I'm sorry to say this, but how can you say your guide has "uncontestabel greatness", and saying other builds are wrong?
I don't care even if your guide really is messiah, if it really is so correct, if we all HAVE been blinded by a2 mercs, if you're the only one with common sense.

You still just shouldn't have this attitude in a public community. Other people may be dead wrong, but saying you're so much better than others, just shows of limited social experience.

I think you can try a more friendly approach, and show calculations, and maybe even videos, and have a good comparison between the two kind of necromancers. Variants are never wrong, but your attitude is

oh, just found this post, and I wanted to quote because of greatness:

Look man, I think your build is a pretty damn good build but even I'm getting a little irritated at your constant insistance that this is the BEST summoner build. It's the best for YOUR play style. Not everyone will play the game the way you do. I play a summoner who focuses on WAY different things than you do and I'm perfectly content to sit in the back as my minions rip the monster mobs apart, even if it takes longer. If I want to tele around really quickly and do lots of damage, I'll play my light sorc. Nothing against your play style, just that it's not the reason why I specifically play a summoner. I think a lot of people have given valid points as to areas where this build would not fit THEIR play style. You've defended every one of your choices for every aspect of your build mutiple times. By this point everyone has made up their mind. If some people don't think that your build is the greatest, who cares?


I completely agree. For your playstyle, this build is perfect.

But, everyone doesn't have the same playstyle.

[Damae]

Frankly, I'm surprised to see so much of an uproar over mephistophilis' attitude. It's a guide, for Christ's sake, he should be enthusiastic and he should make bold statements that directly challenge the status quo. There's nothing wrong with that, and no one should be taking it personally.

This is also partly just the fundamental difference between diii.net and jsp. Jsp is fast-paced, cutthroat, obnoxious, and completely unaccepting of people who aren't 100% confident in their thoughts. Here, the pace is much slower, hence there's more of an emphasis on group discussion to come to an agreement. There's nothing wrong with that, per se, but the two forums cater to two waaay different groups of people.

[Wizdomm]

Frankly, I'm surprised to see so much of an uproar over mephistophilis' attitude. It's a guide, for Christ's sake, he should be enthusiastic and he should make bold statements that directly challenge the status quo. There's nothing wrong with that, and no one should be taking it personally.

This is also partly just the fundamental difference between diii.net and jsp. Jsp is fast-paced, cutthroat, obnoxious, and completely unaccepting of people who aren't 100% confident in their thoughts. Here, the pace is much slower, hence there's more of an emphasis on group discussion to come to an agreement. There's nothing wrong with that, per se, but the two forums cater to two waaay different groups of people.

I do agree with you that jsp and diii.net cater to different groups of people. Jsp caters to immature kids who enjoy a more "trollish" forum experience. Diii.net caters to adults who want to have intelligent and civil conversations.

And the original poster was definitely trying to piss people off with his "incontestable greatness". He claims that Might/Inifinty mercs are "lousy" and has referred to the necros that use them as "cookie-cutter crap builds."

Anyway, I would never replace my Might/Infinity merc with a Pride golem and Beast on my necro for a Faith/Bramble merc with a Infinity golem. Yea...I can't set foot in the Chaos sanctuary but I'll gladly trade that for being able to better "rape" the rest of the game.

[deadbeater]

Damae, you forgot the basic point that others have raised: how can the OP suggest it is an 'ultimate build' when he suggest rushing? Real summon necros command armies to kill from level 1 on. Yes, I don't give a damn about rushing.

[drake]

You just don't have the standing to criticize and dismiss it without trying.

thats a weak argument and, imo, what people resort to when they have no point and/or simply cant admit they're wrong. i'll take the fact you've said it countless times as proof.

the world's best guy at treating depression probably never had one himself, you know. plus, numbers have a lot to do with diablo 2, not just experience.

i dont think you've even conceded once that some points might be debatable, let alone wrong on your part. thats just pathological.

just the fact you say infinity is cheap and that therefore an infinity golem poofage is nothing more than a minor inconvenience is ludicrous. 95% of players arent that rich, if not more, and whats the point of writing a guide if its not meant for players in general (other than implicit bragging, of course).

[lumpor]

Because it's interesting to know the theoretical maximum. I don't really read the guides to know how to build the character. I mostly read them because they're good reads. Everyone here doesn't necessarily play diablo. I already know how to build almost any character, even ones I would think up myself, but I still read guides to hear different opinions, and see options I hadn't thought of, etc.

Even though I doubt this build's effectiveness in general pvm play compared to a standard summonancer, I'd still like to see someone with experience with a normal summonancer trying this build in the hero editor. It will be quite a while until I get to my comp with the hero editor, so I can't do it myself.

And also, playing experience isn't everything. I'll admit I've never been to hell, but I still know everything about hell playing. People may think that I'd suck at building characters because I have no experience, but knowledge is MUCH more important than experience.

My cousin, for example, has been to hell many times, and has never been on a diablo forum, and he puts points in energy on his barbs, and solely uses the character screen damage to determine which weapon to use.

Still, is there anyone here who could try the build?

[balkan]

I'm completely amazed by the endless tolerance and patience you guys exhibit. You deserve some kind og honorary mention in a book of records. :thumbsup:

Mephistophilis, it is actually quite simple. When you say this build is the best due to things like character involvment, you are making a subjective statement, based upon an assumption that everyone will prefer character involvment.
But what if i don't want that? Well then this build is suddently no longer THE BEST ICONTESTABLE UBER MAX COOL BUILD OF GREATNESS -IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE! (tm)
It is THE BEST ICONTESTABLE UBER MAX COOL BUILD OF GREATNESS - IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE! (tm) based on YOUR specific standards and preferences.
The laid-back style of the fishy is boring to YOU, not to some of us, we actually enjoy it. But again you make these arrogant, definitive statements as if they were God-given, undisputable laws of nature, etched in goldplated tablets of stone and splendour.

Like Lumpor, i agree that this sounds like a great and fun build, that faith is somewhat underrated and nightfish's guide is somewhat overrated. That is, if you can afford to poof an infinity polearm regularly (i know i can't for sure, i actually like to play the game the way it's supposed to).
However, i find it is mostly a matter of a variation in gameplay more than an actualy build guide, and i don't see how it should be much faster.
You see, i'm one of those "poor" people you kinda feel like dissing aswell because they don't have endless time on their hands to gather e-wealth, and i have *absolutely* no problem dropping that first corpse with my act 2 merc and teleport.
In fact the thing that i found most strange about your build, which you claim to have tested against all other variations, is that whole act 1 merc buisness. An act 2 merc with a good ethereal runeword polearm does INSANE damage and even with my setup and in act 5 hell, if i want to drop a specific monster i just tele to it (the purpose your build it seems) and it drops before i have time to relocate the mouse cursor to a new spot on the map. I really don't see how your setup is faster than "instantly". Once that corpse is down, i amp, CE and the entire screen is dead in a heartbeat.
Right, so we can tele around fast with this build and have some character involvment. Ok, that's nice, and a fun way to play i'm sure. But it's not THE BEST ICONTESTABLE UBER MAX COOL BUILD OF GREATNESS - IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE! (tm) You have absolutely nothing to back up your arrogant and patronizing manners and that just pisses people off even further than if you actually had something really unique and complely awesome to show off.

[balkan]

BTW, a build that relies on extremely expensive equipment to be really effecient is not a great build IMO. It's anywhere between a bad to a good build with godly equipment. Any build can be efficient with godly equipment, but then it's no longer about the build is it?

[stephan]

Bleh. Since when is Nightfish's guide overrated? It's the core skellie summoner build.

Even though this is the Necro forum, sometimes it's better to leave dead topics dead.

[balkan]

Bleh. Since when is Nightfish's guide overrated? It's the core skellie summoner build.


Well, overrated may be the wrong term. What i mean is that this guide is constantly pointed to as *the* way to do it, while it is my experience - having once tried to follow Nightfish's advices to the letter - that stat progressions other than the ones advocated, as well as build variations that are cast aside as useless, are not only highly playable but actually just as fast if you aren't being rushed through the game. It's a matter of adapting your playstyle and gear more than anything else.
It is my oppinion that the specificity of the fishy guide and attitude that it is *the* most effective way to play a skelliemancer is incorrect and it seems there is a consensus among necro forum users that that's just the way it is.

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

"I use JSP and too many people on this site do not know how to build a proper summoner. "

I stopped reading after that.

HoS

[lumpor]

Yeah, I also think he shouldn't be treated as the summonancer god. After noticing the skeleton power increase, anyone could make a build focused around them. And I also think that nightfish lacks experience of rich characters, suggesting points in revive, and no points in mages etc.

I'm not saying it's a bad guide, but it's not a divine guide either.

Also, mephistofilis, what someone said before is right. Character involvement isn't always a good thing. I really love the laid-back style of the summonancer. You can't assume everyone wants character involvement. It's ok to suggest things that increase involvement for those who like involvement, but it's not ok acting as if everyone likes it

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

Ok, I got bored...and needed a break from my new summoner that I started (Damn you Kiba) on non ladder west...and read this whole thread

Before I retired...I made a faith merc/infinity golem summoner where I was using a selection of necro wands including the shard...the only differnce was I didn't use a spirit/magefist/10 fcr rings alot but did have them in stash to use when I needed to. And gave my account to Kiba when I retired.

I typically used the trangs gloves/homu shield with a carrion ring and the other one listed in the commando guide...because I enjoyed having a pet vine back then.

While the build was fun to play when I did use the spirit/magefists because of the fcr...I found it to be not as important to reach the breakpoint when I'm summoning skeletons and using curses...while keeping a eye on rustbucket to make sure he didn't die or poof on me.

Also...I didnt see much difference from the faith merc compared to a might/infinity Waheed with a insight golem that I also had on my account...although that build was made to lag people out with maxxed mages/revives and a few pets as well.

I went with the maxxed skeletons/mastery setup with rest into golem mastery/rustbucket and points spread out to other golems for synergies with the faith merc.

While both builds was alot of fun to play...I found the use of Waheed in most areas of the game to be more useful for me. The only area Waheed really has a problem is with Diablo because of the obvious:IM...but if you remove his weapon he doesn't die from IM...but you lose the infinity bonus until the IM threat is gone and you put his weapon backk on him again.

That is only a small detail in my book to deal with...and you still have his might aura around.

I'm not gonna get into the petty garbage because of lame comments and statements your guide makes...and make some back in return or give you my diablo resume' either.

Those old-timers still here on the forums who have gamed with me like MM know how good of a Necro I am...and I have nothing to prove to anyone.

*Anarchy01 on the west side

HoS

[stephan]

Yeah, I also think he shouldn't be treated as the summonancer god. After noticing the skeleton power increase, anyone could make a build focused around them.
He never claimed he invented the summoner class now did he? Guides of that quality are indeed a rare sight.


And I also think that nightfish lacks experience of rich characters
And that's from the guy who never entered hell and said that that experience doesn't matter that much at all 3 posts ago? Please keep your senseless smears to yourself. Nighfish is probably a richer player than you are (in more than one aspect).

[balkan]

And that's from the guy who never entered hell and said that that experience doesn't matter that much at all 3 posts ago?

Very true :grin:

Personally I think the good part about NF's guide is the fact that it's not focused on equipment, but works as-is. Great equipment only enhances the build.
And yes, it is a very nice guide and well written, but i have personally found quite a lot of very well written guides on this forum. Perhaps guides used to be sloppy but i think the quality is very high these days and makes it hard for me to see why everyone is so crazy about that particular guide.
This perception is probably just due to the fact that i just flew in recently, having no idea about how things used to be and having read many great and thorough guides. Guides like nightfish may indeed have worked as benchmarks for other guide writers, which is a great thing. It also pretty much makes my comment unjustified, but I just thought i'd share my oppinion on the matter anyway like an *** ;)

[lumpor]

Nighfish is probably a richer player than you are (in more than one aspect).

Yes, but I don't make guides, do I?

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

The op claimed that "too many people on this site don't know how to make a proper summoner".

All those times I've made everything from Commando's to Zookeepers...I guess I made them all improperly. Which is why I'm making yet another one now on west nl...and had Kiba dust off my moldy equipment so I can once again return and make a proper summoner.

HoS

[balkan]

Yeah, and please, do it right this time will you?! Otherwise mephiztophilis has to descend from above once again and spend his precious, divine time spawning another guide for us lowlifes. We can't have that ;)

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

Yeah, and please, do it right this time will you?! Otherwise mephiztophilis has to descend from above once again and spend his precious, divine time spawning another guide for us lowlifes. We can't have that ;)

I will make sure that I do that...so far managed to solo act 1 and 2 of hell since finding a good hell game seems hard to do...so now I'm chillin' in act 3 for the moment.

Also...because I haven't decided if I want to go with a insight rustbucket and max out golem mastery or max out mages...I have done it using 13 skeletons/6 mages and gumby with Waheed using infinity.

And have 32 skill points saved atm because I haven't decided.

HoS

[bluewiind]

I ran into this guide a couple of days ago and I build this necro in SP using the editor. I started at lev 60 in hell, I didnt die once, didnt loose my golem, although I did have infinite number of Infinities available if I did. This is a great build, fast, deadly and fun, as the author advertized and I will build one on ladder east.
I didnt read all the posts here, but from what I did read I was amazed at the level if hostility you necro gurus are showing. I dont believe any of you have actually tried this build and you merely shout you indignation from your soup boxes. How dare anyone question your vast knowledge and introduce a new concept with confidence and upset the status que. It made me laugh, thanks. This is what happens to most people who have new ideas, its a part of human condition. Resistance to change, feeling threatened in ones established niche.
Kudos to the author, this is a great build.

[eruditious]

I don't understand why anyone would suggest making an iron golem out of an infinity. It's not a question of if he dies. He will die at some point. With maxed GM (and +21 to summon tree, which is what I have right now) IG has ~9k life. If you max out BG for the health synergy, IG will have ~10k life.

Considering my skellies have about 8k life and they fall fast to things like IM and the snakes around Nihlathak and you are expecting to do ubers... either you are not collecting the keys/organs yourself, or you are quiting out of games that spawn the snakes/have bad things around Uber Izual.

I use the might/infinity me w/beast/homunc combo. I do not make an IG out of insight, I just chug a pot when I need too (which isn't often, even with me teleporting and CEing constantly). I collect all of my keys with this character, collect all of the organs, kill all of the Ubers, kill all of the act bosses (when I feel like it), rush people, run all the level 85ers (mainly WSK)... it all goes very fast.

My merc only dies to the same snakes and IM if I don't unequip him fast enough (and nothing else really... he's practically soloed Hell Andy, Hell Durial, and Hell Meph with me just adding amp damage and my fanat aura. I haven't tried him on the other two... I think I will go for Baal next. I don't know what you are talking about when you say they die easily. He has Eth Infinity in a Great Poleaxe, Eth Bugged Fort in a Kraken Shell (that I made myself from finding the armor, cubing the armor, and finding the runes myself), and Ral'd Andarial's Visage with 10ll/30str(I am try to get an eth andys).

Anyways, it sounds like an interesting build, but I would rather not relay on an expensive runeword made into an Iron Golem. My 50k a pop for the rare time when my merc dies is fine by me.

[Tangerinedream]

I ran into this guide a couple of days ago and I build this necro in SP using the editor. I started at lev 60 in hell, I didnt die once, didnt loose my golem, although I did have infinite number of Infinities available if I did. This is a great build, fast, deadly and fun, as the author advertized and I will build one on ladder east.
I didnt read all the posts here, but from what I did read I was amazed at the level if hostility you necro gurus are showing. I dont believe any of you have actually tried this build and you merely shout you indignation from your soup boxes. How dare anyone question your vast knowledge and introduce a new concept with confidence and upset the status que. It made me laugh, thanks. This is what happens to most people who have new ideas, its a part of human condition. Resistance to change, feeling threatened in ones established niche.
Kudos to the author, this is a great build.

It really wouldn't have had anything to do with the build had he opened the subject properly. He starts off with an insult to the entire forum, which is a poor choice, especially if someone is wanting constructive feed back. On top of the fact that throughout his thread he makes it seem as though any other approach or weapon set up is inferior, which is again incorrect. Reason being is that due to playstyle, focus, etc people use different builds/gear; this doesn't make a certain build necessarily inferior.

I read through the build and found it an interesting approach, however I found some things irrelavent or unnecessary. FCR was one area I saw as unnecessary. In a build that doesn't focus on spamming spells, the speed at which you cast your golem/skellies/CE is unimportant. 90% of the time if you build your necro properly, which can include builds outside of this one, you don't need to be recasting much, all you are doing is spamming CE. I wouldn't even cast a fourth of my army and take hell on like it was my batch, and I used the might/infinity/beast combo. As it has been mentioned many times pride IG is not the cheapest method, far from it. IG has a nasty habit of poofing or simply dying in those sticky situations. Unlike you most of the d2 community does not have an unlimited stock of eth Pride polearms.

It was mentioned before and should be said again, seeing as I have been reading the forums longer than I have been posting in them, DII.net has a rep for honestly evaluating builds. If you ask in a humble fashion you wont get any backlash, however, if you come off as some know-it-all then you will not be treated nicely.

Tang

[bluewiind]

Just to clarify, my unlimited stock of runeword polearms comes from SP editor where you can make any item in the game in any quantity. I can certainly understand the hesitation of using an expensive item for IG on battlenet.

[Tangerinedream]

Just to clarify, my unlimited stock of runeword polearms comes from SP editor where you can make any item in the game in any quantity. I can certainly understand the hesitation of using an expensive item for IG on battlenet.

I knew where your Prides came from I read your post and quoted it, I was making my point. The point is neither you (in real d2) nor the rest of the d2 community has an unlimmited stock of Pride polearms at our disposal. If a person does I suggest they peel themselves away from their chair, probably overgrown with some sort of mildew, and visit the outside world. What I wrote still stands and is a good summary for what most of the rest of the Dii.net community stated. He was met with hostility primarly because of his starting the thread off with an insult and his know-it-all attitude.

Tang

[NumtyDoo]

Yea, not good to ask for honest advice right after you call everyone idiots.

[lumpor]

Although he says that his ig never died throught the whole of hell, so I think that it does deserve mention

[Pillz]

I read through the build and found it an interesting approach, however I found some things irrelavent or unnecessary. FCR was one area I saw as unnecessary. In a build that doesn't focus on spamming spells, the speed at which you cast your golem/skellies/CE is unimportant. 90% of the time if you build your necro properly, which can include builds outside of this one, you don't need to be recasting much, all you are doing is spamming CE.

Hitting the 125 FCR breakpoint, IMO, is the only way to build a runeworded, high end item summoner. The FCR is there solely for teleporting. Hitting this BP lets you be more of a do everything char than an area runner+act boss finisher. The play style of this build is more akin to a hammerdin than it is a poor man's or beast/homunculus summoner.

I think this is one of those builds that is relatively rare, but I think it really plays to the strengths of a necro and is the best summoner build I've played so far.

[sevencreature]

Pillz: Well it is suited for char which want to teleport in somewhat bearable speed (mostly rushing/Baal running I guess). It sounds like a good build (I like his equipment tweaking, even though I prefer some investments into STR for non-pvp chars - I hate STR/charm glitching), though the thing I like about Necros is you can casually walk/run behind your army, sometimes teleport in the middle of enemy lines, sometimes just fool around and, first of all, you don't need trying to emulate caster.

If I want speed, I'll play my 117%(terminator mode)/200%(FTL mode) FCR Light sorc rather then crawl around with slowly teleporting Necro.

[safetypro]

If I want speed, I'll play my 117%(terminator mode)/200%(FTL mode) FCR Light sorc rather then crawl around with slowly teleporting Necro.

sevencreature you make a good point. Firstly the OP is assuming that this will be your only character and as such has to be suited to perform multiple functions. I am more of a builder myself who has several characters that specialize in different tasks. I have a Hammerdin for MFing and Baal running, an uber Paladin for Torch running, a GF Barb for Travincal High Council and a Town Dump Werebear for...well just because I can....LOL

My latest build will be a Poison/Summoner Necro hence my reading and posting in this forum. The OP may not have the best bedside manner however, I do applaud his challenging of the norm and causing people to look outside the box to find more interesting ideas and in this case, more multi-functionality in his build. :scratchchin:

Try not to be too critical of the OPs manner and focus on the idea instead. That said, my personal preference will continue to be using multiple characters to do various different tasks.

[NumtyDoo]

Why is teleporting so fast such an important option? My summoner which hits the breakpoint below 125 fcr clears areas faster and kills bosses faster than when he had 125 fcr. Killing things gets me items, not teleporting, so for me killing>teleporting. Each to their own, not knocking anyone for doing it, I just don't see the point of 125 FCR on a summoner outside of PvP.

[deadbeater]

The 125 fcr is for Rushing for forges. Jsp is a rushing board. Ugh.

[Pillz]

I use my 125 FCR summoner mostly to run baal so the fast tele is nice. Combine that with running a few act bosses, the A5 superuniques, and the countess, and the difference becomes relatively noticeable.

As for killing speed, I really fail to see how you sacrifice more than a negligible amount by using an FCR setup over what is used in the nightfish guide. Obviously, there is a big difference in DPS from the skeletons with fanaticism, but my merc is the main killer and as soon as the first corpse drops CE takes everything out.

Ultimately, however, it boils down to play style and what you want your necro to do. I only area run the pits, every other MF target I teleport to. Quicker teleport means that I save time and am less likely to get hit along the way.

And deadbeater, that's one of the more uninformed things I've read lately.

[BadAsh]

not a bad build everyone likes there necro's there way.

imo: no need to max out golem mastery at all, one pt. is only needed in all golem stats just like curses in it actually..... with all the fcr that your wracking in him i see you diefeating the purpose. Why not just recast him barely cost nuttin' and at the end of build or halfway though he should be around 18 already just off of one pt. Summoning fast really isn't crucial to a summoning necro, hence the huge horde once it's up it lasts..if your army falls apart then you have a bunk golem and army. You run four times as much fcr then i do ...personally i would worry about resis and blocking more.

[Pillz]

not a bad build everyone likes there necro's there way.

imo: no need to max out golem mastery at all, one pt. is only needed in all golem stats just like curses in it actually..... with all the fcr that your wracking in him i see you diefeating the purpose. Why not just recast him barely cost nuttin' and at the end of build or halfway though he should be around 18 already just off of one pt. Summoning fast really isn't crucial to a summoning necro, hence the huge horde once it's up it lasts..if your army falls apart then you have a bunk golem and army. You run four times as much fcr then i do ...personally i would worry about resis and blocking more.

All the points in golem mastery is so that your iron golem, presumably made out of a decent runeword, has a better chance of survival.

The FCR is for teleporting and teleporting only. 125 FCR is the final breakpoint for a necro, hence the 125 FCR.

[sequoia]

i like high fcr for casting CE as well.

[UCSeraph]

sorry, but infinity is way too expensive for the "normal" player (if there are any anymore...) to consider to re-use on an iron golem.

i play the cheap easy "fishy" build
20 skelly
20 mastery
20 Corpse E
1 iron
1 mastery
1 bone shield
1 bone wall (for fun and good to lock ancients in place... oh ancients are fun)
all curses.

and the rest ANYwhere... I put them in bonewall//bone shield.


I got lucky and got a few grand skillers of mine traded for a Jah and Ber rune and found my own low qual archon and upped and socketed to make my own enigma... then I realized how powerful this char class was. I have only played Sorcs for the most part (I can't live without teleport) but leveling my necro was fun... but when it got to hell mode, it got too hard to maintain ya know. So i stopped playing my thing after it was like level 70 in hell... that is til I got the nigma.

I have a might merc with a random cheap obedience (for extra damage and 40% crushing blow) and when I started I did't have enough high runes to even make an infinity (well now I do I guess). Insight'ed Golem with extras on mules (out of any 4os polearm).
I don't know why you wouldn't max Corpse Explosion. I believe it is THE best spell in the entire game.

I stack tele onto anything and AmpDam, it dies, CE once, stack tele onto something else, it dies, CE and CE and CE and EVERYTHING dies. i n5 seconds. My merc and stacked 15 skellies that do 600 damage (I use AoKL and 2 summoning skill charms) kill anything almost instantly.

I try to hit faster break points for casting CE faster as well to beat Nith, but I realized it wasn't worth the MF loss (nagel rings and such).

I mf with around 330 MF... modest.

My necro has probably died 5 times between levels 75 - 89 where I have exclusively ran Pit/Tunnels/all Keys/Trav/Meph/Frigid/SelfBaal (Occasional) solo or Telebaal with some friends.

It's ridiculous. Corpse Explosion that destroys anything in your screen? (15 yard radius) is RIDICULOUS.

Nith runs are like 1 minute deals. tele in using and cast attract on the close end of nith's platform, then tele to a back corner and get one kill, CE that corpse, tele AWAY to other corner. CE CE CE CE and Nith dies.
Hilarious

I'm sure hammerdins can kill just as fast (Meh, I don't think so personally), but it's definitely not as exciting as CE'ing and watching the whole area go up in blood. hahaha.

[NumtyDoo]

I had a few "uber" characters last year. Some were "as good" in certain areas and certain situations, but the fishy is great everywhere, and never dies. I retired all the other characters because none could come close to clearing areas as fast as a fully pimped fishy.

[Pillz]

This general build, the 125FCR necro, but not the suggested gear setup, is my favorite, and imo most powerful, build.

[UCSeraph]

I had a few "uber" characters last year. Some were "as good" in certain areas and certain situations, but the fishy is great everywhere, and never dies. I retired all the other characters because none could come close to clearing areas as fast as a fully pimped fishy.

Couldn't agree more.

when I put the enigma on my necro... all hell broke loose.

A necro with teleport is the single most devastating PvM build in the entire game. Full screen Corpse Explosions? Good game. Just about anything that dies = grenade. Nothing comes close to clearing as fast as this.

Insight is a must for a CE spammer like me

[Kaleban]

Huh, I don't get it.

I may be a noob, so forgive me, but how is this build different from any other summon build? I mean, you've got the core summon skills, a high GM for the IG, and base points into curses and bone skills. So the build is the same as any other summoner. IMHO it lacks a high level CE, which is the most devastating skill in the game, short of Static Field.

I get the notion of fast casting and teleporting, but if we're talking about efficiency, and in a game like Diablo2, the qualification for efficiency is twofold:

1. Kill as fast as possible
2. Survive

These two points can be reversed in importance for HC players obviously. Several of the OPs posts admit that his build doesn't kill as quick, but allows for faster teleport. I have to say that's a horrible way to judge a build, using an item granted skill from a different class. The only thing this build does over any other summoner is the requirement of Enigma, but IMHO, equipment is not the defining element of a character build, its skill and stat attribution.

Besides, any character with a merc both kitted out in top of the line runewords can kill relatively quickly with Normal Attack.

Bottom line, this is just a standard summoner which the OP is demanding recognition for, and uses pricey runewords and risky teleporting as the basis. A truly good build is one which can be adapted to a wide variety of playstyles, which then showcases the robustness of said build. All this particular build does is come off as arrogant and close-minded, the two worst attributes in a guide, since any good player and guide builder SHOULD want constructive criticism to refine and improve the build.

Believing yourself or your creation to be the epitome of greatness is narcissistic folly.

[Zarniwoop]

I disagree with a lot of this guy and I know precisely what I am doing with my necro.

[Master Zap]

I'm surprised this been mentioned yet, but one of the fundamental arguments the OP makes for not using a A2 merc is death to im. He rationalizes that a infinity IG is better to fit this slot.

Besides the random poofing, an inffin-IG is using a 350% ed 40%cb stick thats virtually auto-hitting anything it swings at is vulnerable to IM. The merc costs 50K to revive, not a big deal. Losing the IG to both bnet randomness and death to im negates the IM argument. Sure you can use a low damage wep, but if your not ontop of it, he'll still kill himself to im in a couple wacks, just like the merc would. This is sometimes harder then one thinks when you've a 30-40 part army on your screen in addition to whatever you happened to partied with.

It's not hard to hit the goals of 125 fcr and 86fhr on the usual fishy setup. ( my opinion is 125 is not necessary and provides for a less sturdy summoner)

I dont see anything fundamentally different from the core summoner guides already reviewed and stickied. This reminds me of TYRANNICIDES , needlessly expensive , somewhat good at couple specific instances but ultimately offering nothing extra and in many cases less then the tried and true.

The tone of superiority I found here is just plain rude.

The damage is less on this build. The merc is far and away the boss killer of summoners and the first corpse ce gatherer. A1 merc yielding a fraction of the damage A2 mercs gross means handicapped kill speed no matter how you cut it and regardless of how many runewords you pop on them.

[mii_the_people]

why won't you people let this thread die? the OP left after being a d-bag. arguments have occured. no real progress has been made. no progress will be made, because said op has moved on. why can't we move on from the thread?

[Lexur]

I finally made a Faith for A1 Merc to test with my Summoner. The results was better than I expected.
A bit better than a regular A2 Might Merc with Insight. The extra IAS from Fanaticism helps.
Now I can enjoy running CS with my Necro.

Still, it can't compete in terms of damage with an Infinity Merc.
I like to run my Necros at 125 FCR, so I never use Beast for regular gameplay. (Only Ubers)

[darkninjaskills]

Hey i pretty much did the same except i dont use infinity golem because im doing physical damage so i use a non eth pride golem which give my the conc aura and i have a1 fanta merc and it work extreamly well my golem doesnt die in chaos cause pole wepon only does like 100damage and something damage leaving my skelle doeing mass damage> What do you think about what i did some feed back except for the fcr stuff


my gear is shako, arm of leoric, arach, trang, 1soj 1 bk, p marrows, p mara, lifer summon gcs 20/18 torch 20-18 anni, life res scs

on switch 6bo cta and spirit

merc p faith, 20s giant skull, and bramble

im using a Pride cv golem

this is the stuff i get pride

and higher lvl fanta with bo and bc my skelles do 995 damage each not including auras

[darkninjaskills]

oh and one thing also my golem has over 10000life with out bo add another 80something % health with bo thats like 18k life it will take alot of hits when golem has IM
to die

[mephiztophelez]

This reminds me of TYRANNICIDES

ARRGH, the HORROR!!!

never speak of it again.:girly:

[bill_n_opus]

why won't you people let this thread die? the OP left after being a d-bag. arguments have occured. no real progress has been made. no progress will be made, because said op has moved on. why can't we move on from the thread?

Because it's like a mephis ... whatever his name is, car-wreck. You just can't help and slow down and view the carnage.

Apologies to mephiztophelez, of course. :wave:

this is what i've assessed of this kid ...er the OP:

- an "interesting" take on a standard summoner guide - somehow focusing on fcr as creating a viable alternative ideology compared to a general summoner. (yeah, just who is this NightFish dude anyways?! :jig:)
- he attempts to bully others into accepting his "guide" and then becomes offensive and insulting to those who do not accept it in totality.
- says, because he's not getting accepted and loved unconditionally, that he's going to take his ball and go home, never to be seen again. (yeah, I bet ... when 1.13 is out will we see him again?)
- we still laugh (I wonder if he's finished high school yet?)
- how the heck did I ever miss this thread?

Bump! for mii_the_people.

[chezzmaster]

Why all that FCR if if you don't max CS, have no bone/poison spells, and don't have insight? Wouldn't it really only help you with tele? I dun get it!

[Taxi Driver]

Using a1 merc = Fail. Beast + Might from A2 merc >>>>>> Faith alone , in total damage output and killing speed. Not to mention a2 merc has better damage, better tank ability, and he is the 1 who often make 1st kill, not your skellies. IM is not everywhere anymore (or I might say nowhere) so he rapes that a1 merc of yours.

Using infi iron golem and seems to be a nice idea at 1st, but see how hard you cry when jumping in a super fast, mana burn group. And dare you swear not to use mana pots constantly? So dont tell people to go for an expensive way while it is worse and more annoying than the cheap old way.

And Carin shard is a nice mid level wand and can be use as end game stuff 4 poor men, but even Hoto (which I personally dislike in favor of Beast) beats it everyday. I wouldnt be so humble calling FHR is **** 4 summon nec but to go for 86 breakpoint and lose tons of other nice mods is plain stupid.

1 to CE in a summon build, LOLLLLLLLLL. You dont know which kill faster, minions or CE, do you? Or you are just totally ignorant about it.

You need as much as 20 Urdars to uber??? I guess it takes you half an hour for an Uber then