View Full Version : best gear for fishy (cost isnt a problem)
I'm trying to build the best fishy possible. No skeletal mages, just pure skeli's.
what would be the best gear for this? Basically what runewords in order to stack the best aura's to make them extremley OP. thanks
I'd go with the following:
helm: rare circlet with at least +2 necro skills/20fcr (and other mods of your choice)
ammy: Mara's Kaleidoscope or rare/crafted +2 necro/10+ fcr
armor: Enigma Breast Plate
glove: Trang-Oul's Claws
Rings: 2x Soj or if you want more fcr, fcr rings with resists/str/mana/life
Belt: Arachnid Mesh
Boot: Marrowalks
Shield: Spirit Monarch for overall use, +3 Boneflame on switch for summoning skills
Weapon: Beast Zerker for overall use, Arm of King leoric on switch for summoning skills
That should get you enough FCR for decent teleport speed with enigma and a decent amount of +skills for summoning. For your merc, I'd go with act2 nightmare offensive merc (Might aura) equipped with a Pride Runeword (concentration aura) and a decent survival armor (Bramble comes to mind because of the thorns aura). For helm i'd pick Guillaume's face as an overall good choice.
NumtyDoo
25-03-2008, 00:54
Helm: Shako(for mf) or +2 circlet
Ammy: Mara or +2 ammy
Armor: Enigma breast/mage/archon
Gloves: Trangs are fine, I use magefist to boost CE
Belt: Arach
Boot: Marrow for +mastery or wartrav(for mf)
Shield: Run with Homonc or Spirit (I prefer Homonc), summon with boneflame
Weap: Beast or Hoto (I use Hoto), AOKL for summon
Rings: Sojs if you want more mana, BK's if you want more life, no fcr rings here, you are not gonna PvP with this guy so over the top FCR is not needed and resists can be made up with charms, focus on the +skills.
I prefer Homonc because I like to max block, and I like the big resist boost, spirit is a great choice if you want to go vita build.
I used to use beast, but I prefer Hoto over Beast because once you get all of this gear plus torch, anni, and a couple skillers you will own everything in less than a full game without beast. Hoto gives me bigger CE range, faster tele, and more resists. You really will not see a difference in killing speed without beast. When you get to Hell it is your merc that gets the first kill, not your skellies, and CE does 95% of your killing.
If you are looking for fast killing speed mages will do more for your damage per second than beast will.
For merc: infinity is better than pride (pride nerfs your merc, he is your #1 killer), and fortitude or chains of honor is better than bramble. Guilam's is fine, Andy's works too.
If u go infinity, u really should go mages. They rock, especially in private games.
mostly im just looking to be able to school in players8, or chaos runnin. gonna try to pick up a beast tonight, largest peice im missing.
You will find chaos running to be a very obnoxious task for a necromancer. Especially in 8p games.
one thing to note about the Pride polearm, it smashes anything that isn't cold immuned. so when looking for corpses look for the cold immuned gargantuan beasts in cold plains - or whichever place you know have plenty of cold immunes.
which was why i went with infinity instead, also because i use magi. anyways, g'luck with your fishy.
My skellys new loadout (note : If you do decide to use beast, you're only going to want to use it for bosses or stoneskin + broken phys immune superuniques or you're gimping your killing speed severely).
HCrest (Ptopaz)
+3 summon +20 dex ammy (have a +3 summon with 31% MF if I feel like dropping a few % from block)
DS Enigma
Hoto
Homun (Pdia)
Trang Gloves
Travs
Arach
10% FCR/17 str/18 light res/14 psn res
10% FCR/+4 all res
Gheeds
Anni
Torch
3x summon gc (oddly enough, each one dropped from nihil)
Level 87
75% block
Resists : 51/75/69/65
All of that gear is fairly cheap to obtain, the hardest probably being FCR/STR/Res rings or a summon amulet with huge dex.
mephiztophelez
25-03-2008, 05:37
i'm sorry, i have to laugh at this thread.
Skellynec's are TOTALLY gear independent. numerous credible accounts have been made of skellynec's soloing their way to guardian status, naked.
equipment is just an added bonus extra for a skellynec. they don't actually need any equipment.
i'm sorry, i have to laugh at this thread.
Skellynec's are TOTALLY gear independent. numerous credible accounts have been made of skellynec's soloing their way to guardian status, naked.
equipment is just an added bonus extra for a skellynec. they don't actually need any equipment.
I'm sorry, but I have to laugh at your complete lack of a point in this thread.
This thread is about the best gear available for a fishy, not "LOL I RAN MY NAKED PIXELS FROM ONE END OF THE GAME TO THE OTHER I R GOSU".
Sure you could walk from florida to california... but why do that when you could drive a ferarri?
And I'm going to laugh you out of the nec forums if you say that good gear doesn't cause an enormous increase in killing speed, which is the reason you put gear on characters in the first place.
mephiztophelez
25-03-2008, 08:23
I'm sorry, but I have to laugh at your complete lack of a point in this thread.
huh?
And I'm going to laugh you out of the nec forums if you say that good gear doesn't cause an enormous increase in killing speed, which is the reason you put gear on characters in the first place.
errrr, gear (aside from Merc gear), actually does very little for a Corpse Explosion using skellynecs overall Kill Speed.
you can dope 'em up on +skills gear through the wazoo and all it "really" gets you is a few extra skelly's and a bigger CE radius. now, yes, this will speed up your area clearing killspeed, but not as much as similar +skills gear used on, for example, a Sorc would speed up the sorc's kill speed.
and given the "other uses" i could find for gear like Enigma, Beast, Pride, SoJ's, Mara's & the like, i prefer to kit out my nec on the cheap saving such amazing itamz for other builds (usually pvp ones).
kitting out a skellynec in that sort of gear, imho, is akin to taking a 1970 VW Beetle chassis and putting a Porsche 911 body on it. fine, it looks great, but underneath, it's still a VW Bug.
sure, you can bore out the engine, add in extracters, Holley's and various other bits of go-fast-gear, but it still won't perform like a 911 now, will it?
Sure you could walk from florida to california... but why do that when you could drive a ferarri?
perhaps i like walking? perhaps i don't own a ferrari? whats your point?
i'm sorry, i have to laugh at this thread.
Skellynec's are TOTALLY gear independent. numerous credible accounts have been made of skellynec's soloing their way to guardian status, naked.
equipment is just an added bonus extra for a skellynec. they don't actually need any equipment.
I'm sorry, i have to laugh at you.
I made this thread in order to get a better idea of what gear to make my Fishy AS BEST AS HE CAN POSSIBLY BE.
To the other posters, thanks for input.
AnimeCraze
25-03-2008, 10:31
If you are all set of damage, and cost isn't an issue, you can try for an insight or even a pride iron golem. Now you can have all the benefit of infinity, pride, beast, and might merc. Make sure you make it in a low damage polearm and max golem mastery. Also make sure that you tele often since you don't want your golem to disappear off screen, do you. And no matter what you do, don't die. :wink3:
Ed from Russia
25-03-2008, 11:16
Gear suggestions above are fine, just a few notes:
- Don't use Spirit shield because of gear requirement. Marrowwalk shouldn't be a problem though because of the strength boost from Enigma.
- Not discussed: optimum skill investment: I recommend 20/20 in RS/SM, max CE and max Dim Vision. Keep Amp Dmg at 1 pt so its radius is small (otherwise you'd un-Dim monsters you want to keep blinded).
Spirit doesn't suck because of the str req (you should have more than enough with nig+anni+torch), it sucks because it requires an ENORMOUS amount of dex compared to homun to achieve max block, which gives you some crazy survivability.
I fail to see why you would need max block when you are surrounded by minions and have teleport capabilities, but hey, some people just can't live without max block. Anyway I like spirit because of the HUGE boost it gives to vita, and a very nice fcr bonus (also good when trying to teleport). While I do think that Homun is a suitable shield, both are so cheap that it comes down to FCR/vita vs max block. Just make the most suitable choice for you
mephiztophelez:
Yeah, everybody know that fishymancers can finish in hardcore while naked. But the guy did make a thread asking for gear, what are we supposed to do, say "go away n00b and play naked" ? If people want to play their summon necros with pvp quality gear, that's their problem, don't laugh at people for that, after all, I don't laught at 200% FCR fireball sorcs that can't properly survive in Worldstone Keep due to immunities. It's just pointless.
perhaps i like walking? perhaps i don't own a ferrari? whats your point?
I guess his point was "the guy owns a freakin ferrarri, don't tell him that he can do it by walking, because chances are, he does not want to do that (otherwise he would have stated so"
you really don't have to be so obtuse just to prove a point that everyone knows already =/
stripeman
26-03-2008, 08:26
Having built a necro with all that gear, I would suggest that you DO max skele mages and use Infinity on your merc. I use a Faith great bow rather then a Beast/Homon, however I also use a wisp projector to stop those nubbin Black Souls in their tracks. Other resists I find never matter due to my wall of skeles. Clay Golem becomes redundant when you have 26 minions and decrepify, so if you want mana to spam a few more CE's then go with insight IG.
By the way to the people who said its a pain in the *** doing Chaos runs with this type of build, let me tell you, with enigma (and not even bothering to use merc) and fanaticism on my minions from Faith, things die extremely fast. Everything is so packed in that once u curse a group and tele all your minions to where you want them, they all die from CE sooo quick.
obeymenow
26-03-2008, 17:14
quick fyi for you on raising skellies if you use pride.
In act 5, when you save anya, she opens a protal to find nithalak. I go through the portal and raise all my skellies there as it will take about 30 secs for the corpse to raise. I didn't kill nithalak as I think that when you kill him, the portal closes.
Hope this helps.
My set up is as follows.
Shako
Beast
Enigma
3 summon ammy (I might switch for mara's for the resist)
bk and soj
humonculus
arach
frosties
marrowwalk
Merc uses pride
Maxed raise skellies, skellie mastery.
clay golem to tank
corpse explosion a few points.
I have some mages, but my set up doesn't support them.
I send my troops to kill, once they get the first kill, then corpse explosion does the rest.
bruticus
27-03-2008, 00:26
quick fyi for you on raising skellies if you use pride. In act 5, when you save anya, she opens a protal to find nithalak. I go through the portal and raise all my skellies there as it will take about 30 secs for the corpse to raise. I didn't kill nithalak as I think that when you kill him, the portal closes.
quoted for truth. easy and fast army through that red portal.
i think the portal only closes if you've killed Nihlithak and you touch the Halls of Pain Waypoint. don't touch the waypoint if you like to run Pindle and get a free fast army :smiley:
stripeman
27-03-2008, 00:41
Also, not quite as fast, but the gate outside of act 5 always has 3-4 corpses that can be raised, and generally a quick amp will help a barb finish off another 2 or 3. I find this a good place if the Red Portal isn't available in a game.
cynicalcat1
28-03-2008, 00:54
quoted for truth. easy and fast army through that red portal.
i think the portal only closes if you've killed Nihlithak and you touch the Halls of Pain Waypoint. don't touch the waypoint if you like to run Pindle and get a free fast army :smiley:
that is correct, do not get the halls of pain wp and the portal will stay open, no matter how many times you kill nith.
Ed from Russia
28-03-2008, 16:22
Spirit doesn't suck because of the str req (you should have more than enough with nig+anni+torch), it sucks because it requires an ENORMOUS amount of dex compared to homun to achieve max block, which gives you some crazy survivability.
That's only true if you're assuming that Max Block is the best choice for a Summoner, but that's much debated without a clear conclusion (i.e. it depends on play style, skill setup, etc.).
Still, I think Homunc is better than Spirit in both cases:
- In case of Max Block it has a better chance to block
- In case of Vita you'll have more points for Vitality.
SirBeetle
28-03-2008, 17:31
huh?
errrr, gear (aside from Merc gear), actually does very little for a Corpse Explosion using skellynecs overall Kill Speed.
you can dope 'em up on +skills gear through the wazoo and all it "really" gets you is a few extra skelly's and a bigger CE radius. now, yes, this will speed up your area clearing killspeed, but not as much as similar +skills gear used on, for example, a Sorc would speed up the sorc's kill speed.
and given the "other uses" i could find for gear like Enigma, Beast, Pride, SoJ's, Mara's & the like, i prefer to kit out my nec on the cheap saving such amazing itamz for other builds (usually pvp ones).
kitting out a skellynec in that sort of gear, imho, is akin to taking a 1970 VW Beetle chassis and putting a Porsche 911 body on it. fine, it looks great, but underneath, it's still a VW Bug.
sure, you can bore out the engine, add in extracters, Holley's and various other bits of go-fast-gear, but it still won't perform like a 911 now, will it?
perhaps i like walking? perhaps i don't own a ferrari? whats your point?
I have a lot of maras/sojs, they're pretty cheap to some people. Please don't post stupid "just use bad itemz" in a thread that's not asking for it.
If I were to rebuild my summoner, I'd lay him out like so:
Helm: Shako
Armor: BP or MP enigma
Weap: hoto (hoto > beast, but if you must use a beast, use a battle axe, not a zerker for obvious reasons)
Shield: Homunc p-diamond or um'd
Belt: arach
boots: waterwalks, treks or travs, doesn't really matter unless you plan on doing some pvp.
gloves: Trang or Mages
Rings: soj's all the way, mana is helpful for a summoner and CE :0
Ammy: Maras or 3 summon/lifer
Merc:
Insight or infinity (i use insight for tele while mfing)
some helm/armor
With this build you hit 80%fcr which is more than enough on a summoner. I think 90-95 is the next bp? Either way I've tried it before and noticed that I tele slower because the game can't keep up.
Right now I use an AOKL/spirit shield layout, but then again, I'm only a 1pt CE summoner, i wanted to pvp every now and then, lol.
AnimeCraze
29-03-2008, 00:11
The next BP is 125, IIRC. It's same as paladin.
thanks for all the input guys. I guess i'll update on current gear.
Helm : Shako
Ammy : Mara's
Weap: Heart of the Oak (debating between this and king leorc)
Sheild : Homon
Armor: Enigma
Gloves : Trang (is there anything much better? i dont seem to need the faster cast rate from them, so i can see using something else.)
Belt: Arach
Feet : Marrowalks
Rings - Soj + BK
Inventory - Anni, torch, 5 summoning grand charms.
I pretty much wreck everything playing by myself.
AnimeCraze
29-03-2008, 05:44
What do you mean by you don't need the faster cast rate? If you use enigma, you should aim to hit 75 FCR no matter what.
What do you mean by you don't need the faster cast rate? If you use enigma, you should aim to hit 75 FCR no matter what.
When im teleporting around i switch to wizzy and a spirt. that plus arachs and i hit 75, hence why i was thinkin of using another glove.
Also, to anyone with pride on merc - will i notice any difference? and does the freezing on it get annoying? Merc is also using a bramble i picked up cheap - good times.
NumtyDoo
29-03-2008, 23:14
Infinity and obedience are much better than pride. Pride looks good on paper, but when I tried it I was very disappointed. Infinity is the better of the two, but obedience is almost as great and cheaper.
SnickerSnack
31-03-2008, 01:15
When im teleporting around i switch to wizzy and a spirt. that plus arachs and i hit 75, hence why i was thinkin of using another glove.
Wizzy and spirit will give you 75 to 85 fcr. You mean you can get 105, right? Then gloves will get you the 125 bp?
but obedience is almost as great and MUCH cheaper.
There, fixed that for you.:wink3:
ReiperXHC
31-03-2008, 06:26
This is my dream set-up. It's for single player so just add a torch and an anni and you're all set.
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=642688
SirBeetle
31-03-2008, 20:37
Wizzy and spirit will give you 75 to 85 fcr. You mean you can get 105, right? Then gloves will get you the 125 bp?
There, fixed that for you.:wink3:
125 pb is useless for a summoner, it'll actually make you tele slower. I tried it with my current neccy, but it was distracting at best.
If you hit 75% without gloves, then switch to bloodfists, fhr is very important so you don't die when trying to kill nith and other high monster areas.
Pride is horrible, I tried one thinking it would be amazing but the cold is just soo bad. It takes too long to get skele's going with a pride. Infinity, insight, or obediance.
thanks for all the input guys. I guess i'll update on current gear.
Helm : Shako
Ammy : Mara's
Weap: Heart of the Oak (debating between this and king leorc)
Sheild : Homon
Armor: Enigma
Gloves : Trang (is there anything much better? i dont seem to need the faster cast rate from them, so i can see using something else.)
Belt: Arach
Feet : Marrowalks
Rings - Soj + BK
Inventory - Anni, torch, 5 summoning grand charms.
I pretty much wreck everything playing by myself.
I wouldn't ever run around using the AoKL in a primary once you have something else. The bone armor/bone wall is annoying, even if you can teleport.
For gloves, use a frostburn if you don't need the fcr. The extra mana boost is pretty substantial and helps when you have to CE spam.
My personal setup:
Shako
Mara's/+3 summon ammy with resists or life
Homunc (um'd)/Beast double axe
Spirit/AoKL & CTA(sometimes) on switch
Dusk Chains of Honor / Enigma
Marrowwalk
Arach Mesh
Frostburn
Sojs/BKs
And of course 9 summon gcs, anni, torch, resist/life/fhr small charms
Merc: (I think this is the most important part of the build)
Guillaume's Face(cb)/Andy Visage(leech)
Eth Infinity CV/CA/Thresher
Eth Fort
Might aswell post my setup, it's a standard build fishymancer with the gear i prefer for as much skill points, decent FCR and MF. Can do anything in Hell including ubers, rushing, area running.
Shako 'P topaz'
Enigma MP
Hoto 40
Homo 'P dia'
Wartraveller's 50
Nagelring 30
Nagelring 30
Trang Ouls Gloves
Mara's 28
Arach's
Gheeds 40
9 Summon Sk's with 25-30 Life
7% MF SC's under em all.
Torch/Anni
Merc:
Eth Fortitude
Eth Insight 17
Andy face 'Ral'
Switch:
Cta 5/6/3
Spirit
AnimeCraze
01-04-2008, 09:33
125 pb is useless for a summoner, it'll actually make you tele slower.How? Lag issues? I mean, I don't see my own sorc teleing slow or double tele even with the 105 BP (and that's faster than a summoner's 125).
SirBeetle
01-04-2008, 18:34
How? Lag issues? I mean, I don't see my own sorc teleing slow or double tele even with the 105 BP (and that's faster than a summoner's 125).
Your sorc doesn't happen to be carrying around 38 minions all the time with her by chance does she?
I wouldn't ever run around using the AoKL in a primary once you have something else. The bone armor/bone wall is annoying, even if you can teleport.
For gloves, use a frostburn if you don't need the fcr. The extra mana boost is pretty substantial and helps when you have to CE spam.
My personal setup:
Shako
Mara's/+3 summon ammy with resists or life
Homunc (um'd)/Beast double axe
Spirit/AoKL & CTA(sometimes) on switch
Dusk Chains of Honor / Enigma
Marrowwalk
Arach Mesh
Frostburn
Sojs/BKs
And of course 9 summon gcs, anni, torch, resist/life/fhr small charms
Merc: (I think this is the most important part of the build)
Guillaume's Face(cb)/Andy Visage(leech)
Eth Infinity CV/CA/Thresher
Eth Fort
I don't think you can get +3 summon/resist ammy (they are both prefix). You can get rare one,though (+2 summon or +2 necro/resist). Don't forget the insight Iron Golem. You merc can use infinity or obedience, then :)
Chien
ReiperXHC
06-04-2008, 19:19
I think you may have missed my post in this thread. At the end of page 3 there's a link to another thread I made regarding just this topic. It is by far the best fishy gear possible. (IMO) HotO is good, but hardly the best gear possible for a fishy.
-Reip
I don't think you can get +3 summon/resist ammy (they are both prefix). You can get rare one,though (+2 summon or +2 necro/resist). Don't forget the insight Iron Golem. You merc can use infinity or obedience, then :)
Chien
Woops, good call on the ammy. I typically use a clay golem or a fire golem over an iron, although occasionally if i find a unique w/ nice mods but it's worthless I'll make an IG out of it. I've never used insight golems though because I've never had mana problems big enough to warrant it. I don't mind popping a mana pot from time to time.
ReiperXHC
09-04-2008, 00:33
Oh shoot, my bad. I didn't realize you guys were actually quoting from my thread. Yeah a good call on the ammy for sure. That means it's probably the same for the Circlet.
Either way, I'm pretty sure you should have more than enough resistances. If not you can always get them from charms. The +3 ammy and the +3 circlet are better....stronger skellies is a very very good thing.
It can get to the point where you almost don't have time to CE anything. (I tested this build out a long time ago with a character editor.)
This setup can power through WSK solo in an 8 player game quite quickly. And even though CE doesn't stack with more players...with amp on it still only takes a few CE's to start killing monsters (who are already being damaged by your army.)
Oh and as for the circlet, you can always stick +15 all resist jewels in it. (2 sockets if it's blue, woot)
Well...I play single player, but I think I'm gonna' go after this set-up when the new ladder season starts. (I was playing on b-net but I had just recently started when the "new season coming up" message showed up, so I figured I'd just wait.)
GL with your fishy (if you're still even reading this thread.)
-Reip
If cost wasn't an issue... That's easy.
Wizzy (+30%Lightning res jewel)
Godly Amulet (+2 Necro, 20 resist all, 40 lightning res, +15%fcr)
Dream Circlet (2/20/2) (Shaels)
2x FCR/resist/mana/dex rings
Trang-Oul's Claw
Enigma Dusk Shroud
Thundergod's Vigor
Sandstorm Treks
Homunculus (Um)
On switch is Eth CS CTA + Eth Spirit Monarch.
This setup gives us maxed res in Hell, with a little stacked res and light absorb. Gets 125%FCR which ports us along at 9 frames, +32% FBR which is 7 frame blocking(Yeah! Max Block FTW!), and our FHR is up to 7 frames as well.
The inventory is naturally filled with Torch, Annihilus, and however many Graverobber's Grand Charms of Vita you need for the next skeleton breakpoint. Small charms are either FHR/Life/Res or a combination thereof. Make sure to leave a a 2x4 space for your 1337 drops.
Insight Bill Golem is used because our mercenary can't be bothered to wield such a lowly weapon. Instead, he's dressed in E-glitched Treachery, Eth-Andy's Visage (Ias jewel) and Eth-Infinity Giant Thresher.
Yeah... That's pretty much my dream necro. :brainiac:
SnickerSnack
10-04-2008, 21:09
125 pb is useless for a summoner, it'll actually make you tele slower.
I wasn't saying that 125 fcr was useful. I was just trying to clarify someone's math.
You should say so; ultra fast cast curses + CE chains = much love.
Weird buggy/double teleporting is ping related. Due to ping I can't enjoy teleporting faster than 9 frames on my sorks unless I want to double teleport and deal with that stuff.
As for teleporting with 30+ minions and lagging.. What does one expect? If you can't figure that one out, I suggest you take a long look here.
SnickerSnack
15-04-2008, 04:33
I think this is the best place to ask my question:
I have a few hrs to spend on my fishy, here's his current gear:
shako
enigma
wizzy/homon
switch: +3 summon wand/homon(pdiamond)
thundergod's vigor
chancies
marrowwalk's
dwarf star
nagel
+3 summon +10% fcr ammy
Gheed's
3 summon gcs
torch
anni
some mf small charms
I made an Oath in an ettin axe hoping I could prebuff with Heart of Wolverine, but it doesn't work since the HoW poofs if you switch weapons. I played around with it a little and it doesn't seem to do much for my kill speed, in fact it seems to slow me down (slower tele and CE). Would I be better off spending my hrs on arachs and SoJ/BK? I've got no problem removing the nagel ring, but I'm pretty attached to the thundergod's vigor.
spending my hrs on arachs and SoJ/BK?
Try to get 75fcr. your there if you just change the belt to an arach.
Or if you like your anti soul belt to mutch u can always go for mages fist or trang gloves.
and a soj is najs, the nagel is not that useful anyway. 30mf behh.
But other then that i cant se any needed gear changes.
What about your merc? He is realy important on a summon nec. Post his gear, maby u can pimp him out a little.
-Ellok
I made an Oath in an ettin axe hoping I could prebuff with Heart of Wolverine, but it doesn't work since the HoW poofs if you switch weapons. I played around with it a little and it doesn't seem to do much for my kill speed, in fact it seems to slow me down (slower tele and CE). Would I be better off spending my hrs on arachs and SoJ/BK? I've got no problem removing the nagel ring, but I'm pretty attached to the thundergod's vigor.
What about Wisp Projector to replace your nagel? It's only 10% less MF, gives 20% lightning absorb and gives you Heart of the Wolverine charges. Granted, they'r only lvl 5 charges, but it would still boost your skeleton damage more than a SoJ would.
I'm remaking my own Summoner and was thinking about this as my other ring. Although I'm not sure if 20% lightning absorb alone is enough for souls, but for you it wouldn't matter as your wearing Thundergod's.
I think this is the best place to ask my question:
I have a few hrs to spend on my fishy, here's his current gear:
I made an Oath in an ettin axe hoping I could prebuff with Heart of Wolverine, but it doesn't work since the HoW poofs if you switch weapons. I played around with it a little and it doesn't seem to do much for my kill speed, in fact it seems to slow me down (slower tele and CE). Would I be better off spending my hrs on arachs and SoJ/BK? I've got no problem removing the nagel ring, but I'm pretty attached to the thundergod's vigor.
Arach/Soj/Bk is definitely a good way to go. You might also consider a hoto or a beast for your main weapon. If you don't have an infinity on your merc, that's another item to go after too.
SnickerSnack
15-04-2008, 18:21
Merc:
Obedience in eth thresher
Treachery in eth dusk
vamp gaze
These are all good recommendations. I have to go to work now, so I'll give them more thought another time, thanks.
But
a soj is najs
Mistype? What is "najs?"
Barbarrister Voldamus
15-04-2008, 20:45
Snicker,
I would recomend you upgrade the Obedience to Infinity on the Merc if you have the coin. Another possibility would be to to try for a fanaticism aura (either Beast or Faith - I like the idea of picking off monsters from the back). It all depends on how attached you are to your Wizzy.
Mistype? What is "najs?"
Najs = Nice
iv seen some movie on youtube where a guy just keeps saying najs to some engines and machines..
its in swe so my not be that funny to you guys ;P
well get that Infinity like Barbarrister said.
-Ellok
Out of curiosity how much would infinity help with your necro applying the crushing blow to an Act boss? This seems to be a major point of contention.
Also, I would think against Obedience or Vamp gaze, as both have cold damage applied, and thus it takes longer to create your army (if you don't like to hop between acts). I'm still seeing 3 main sticking points with this build, even with ideal gear:
1) Act boss killing WITHOUT going back to get better revives, which can be frustrating.
2) Physical immune killing (the unbreakable ones) without going back to get better revives - often mages also spawn in the area, so this is a lesser threat, or for a Mage user no problem at all.
3) Army creation time (WITHOUT using the Nihlithak trick, something not available to completists). Basically the stronger the merc, the faster this will be done. Since killing speed after the army is created seems to be about equal in spite of gear (aside from enigma), I would think that items benefiting the damage output and survivability of the merc would be the mainstay of the "Uber" equipment. In that respect do you go with physical resistance, higher defense, element absorbtion, or crushing blow, or is there some ideal mix of these aspects?
NumtyDoo
16-04-2008, 03:20
infinity helps alot:
1) Increases CE damage by almost 50%
2) 40% Cb is great
3) almost doubles mage damage
4) Increases everyones chance to hit, mostly noticeable against bosses, increasing damage per second, and application of CB.
I have never had a boss killing problem, not sure on the numbers, and don't feel like running the calc at the minute, but if I recall correctly on my fishy:
1) Skellies doing like 36K damage per second (total not each, iirc this is with amp)
2) Mages doing 15k a second (total not each, iirc this is with 85% infinity bonus)
3) Merc doing close to 10k jab with 70% CB
Boss killing problem? Bosses last only seconds without any revives at all.
Raising an army is easy even without the "corpse garden", start your MF run in normal, like coutess or pits, your merc will own anything there easily. Also there are 3 already dead boddies just outside the main gate of harrogath
SnickerSnack
16-04-2008, 09:40
First of all, I started my fishy for mf, but recently I've been using him to run mini ubers. Duriel and Izual go down easy, but Lilith is really tough sometimes - I'm not sure why. For mf, my current setup is fine, but I'd like to be able to take down mini ubers a little faster since I usually have 9 keysets ready at a time. It would be nice to do mini ubers in 15 minutes every time. That said:
I've never had a problem starting my army, even with the cold damage. The Cold Plains have always been generous - it takes at the very most 2 minutes to get my 13 skellies.
I made obedience because it is a cheap source of CB and resistances; it may be time to upgrade to infinity though. I started with Honor, and that was fairly nice. If I switch to infinity, I may have to find another source of res. But, I have a only a have a few hrs to spend, and I'm not sure that I want to spend all of them on one item. Right now, my fishy is my money maker though.
While I like treachery, I was thinking that eth fort might be a lot better, or even just duress (cold damage though) or stone. Right now I could afford to make all 3 and try to see what I like best.
Najs = Nice
That's actually what I thought it would be - from context clues.
What about Wisp Projector to replace your nagel? It's only 10% less MF, gives 20% lightning absorb and gives you Heart of the Wolverine charges. Granted, they'r only lvl 5 charges, but it would still boost your skeleton damage more than a SoJ would.
Yes, I really considered this, but I made an oath because I didn't know that switching weapons would poof the HoW. Maybe Wisp is a good choice. If I choose arachs over thundergod's, then I will need Wisp. Thundergod's vigor is nice because it has integer light absorb - 20 points get absorbed from every light attack. 85% res and +20 absorb pretty much nullify every light attack.
Arach/Soj/Bk is definitely a good way to go. You might also consider a hoto or a beast for your main weapon. If you don't have an infinity on your merc, that's another item to go after too.
My main wep right now is wizzy. I've been looking at HotO also. I recently got a +3 summon +10 fcr ammy, so HotO would be fine. But, if I choose to go with arach's, then I will be at 70% fcr with HotO/Arachs'/ammy, but at 80% with wizzy/arach's/ammy - the next breakpoint.
I would recomend you upgrade the Obedience to Infinity on the Merc if you have the coin. Another possibility would be to to try for a fanaticism aura (either Beast or Faith - I like the idea of picking off monsters from the back). It all depends on how attached you are to your Wizzy.
I'm pretty attached. :grin: Like I said, I made an Oath, and the level 16 Heart of Wolverine doesn't really help my kill speed. I think the fcr and +15% mana helps more. IMO, level 16 HoW > lvl 9 Fanat. But, since I've never used Beast, that's just hypothetical.
1) Act boss killing WITHOUT going back to get better revives, which can be frustrating.
I can do them all without any revives since I have CB on my merc. I usually get venom lords right before baal though, and of course it's easy to use urdar's on mephisto.
It seems like I have 3 priorities:
1. merc weapon (infinity)
2. +skill gear (SoJ, Arach's)
3. Wisp Projector
I think that I can have the runes for that in a few weeks given my current wealth growth. I will also consider trading wizzy for HotO. Previously, I hadn't really considered priority 1, but it seems like infinity might be the best way to increase my kill speed - much better than Oath. I do enjoy kicking back while my skellies do all the work. I might end up rebuilding my fishy to max mages.
Also, I would think against Obedience or Vamp gaze, as both have cold damage applied
Cold damage hasn't made it hard to start my army. What would you recommend instead? I need life leech on my merc.
Thanks for the help.
My main wep right now is wizzy. I've been looking at HotO also. I recently got a +3 summon +10 fcr ammy, so HotO would be fine. But, if I choose to go with arach's, then I will be at 70% fcr with HotO/Arachs'/ammy, but at 80% with wizzy/arach's/ammy - the next breakpoint.
You could Take HotO + Arach + Trang gloves/Magefist. That gets you over the 75% breakpoint and leaves you free to get another suffix for your amulet(luck or life everlasting for example).
If you can get Golemlord's Amulet of Luck with perfect MF(35%) then you would only be losing 5%mf from your Chance Guards.
Trang Gloves would give you +2 curses and cold res, where as Magefist gives +1 CE and 25% mana regen.
Greyeagle
16-04-2008, 14:39
First of all, I started my fishy for mf, but recently I've been using him to run mini ubers. Duriel and Izual go down easy, but Lilith is really tough sometimes - I'm not sure why. For mf, my current setup is fine, but I'd like to be able to take down mini ubers a little faster since I usually have 9 keysets ready at a time. It would be nice to do mini ubers in 15 minutes every time.
If your goal is merely to bring down mini-uber killing time to 15 minutes, you don't need to spend more high runes.
You don't need infinity to make that goal. I don't dispute it's awesome, and will increase your kill speed - I'm just saying you don't need it for 15 minute mini-uber runs.
When killing the mini-ubers crushing blow is key. To reduce time you would like to avoid depending on revives for that crushing blow. Thus, increase your mercs crushing blow.
Obedience
Guillaume's
Fortitude
That extra 35% crushing blow from the helm is very noticeable on bosses (and mini-ubers).
Second, when you attack a mini-uber don't telestack right on top of them. That's right I said don't tele-stack. :) Tele just before them and let your skellies/revives rush in. Your merc will lag slightly behind, but as long as you have his Obed in a weapon with good range he will still be able to attack. Since he's back rank he won't get attacked and thus he hits faster (no hit recovery).
That attack strategy is why I hate one single mod on infinity:
+35% Faster Run/Walk
With that mod the merc is almost always front line and often targeted by boss/uber.
As for lillith, she is tough. My suggestion for her is to plow your way through to find her. Build spear girl revives along the way. Having a front rank of spear girl revives will make the battle much easier.
---
Another way of speeding up your mini runs is to clear your way to all bosses as your first step. Then go raise up max urdar revives and tele to all bosses one after the other. All 3 can be done this way within the 3 minute timer for the revives. This avoids having to go out multiple times for urdar revives.
I suggest hitting lillith first in this case since she benefits most from the application of urdars, then I usually hit dury because he benefits the next most from urdars (due to holy freeze slowing things down), followed by izual. If the timer starts running out on izual, it isn't a big deal as he is fairly easy anyway.
NumtyDoo
16-04-2008, 14:45
I agree with greyeagles strat, that is what I do too. I tele just before the boss back away and cast gumby on them (bosses hate gumby more than anyone else for some reason). This usually keeps the boss from attacking the merc.
whats better for a merc infinity? low or high damage polearm?
NumtyDoo
16-04-2008, 16:39
high damage. Even in a low damage polearm, the merc will "instakill" himself with IM, people usually use a thresher. Thresher has lower damage than say colossus voulge, but the faster speed means more CB application.
Don't put infinity in anything less than an elite ethereal polearm - Cryptic Axe, Colossus Voulge or Thresher.
I'm pretty attached. Like I said, I made an Oath, and the level 16 Heart of Wolverine doesn't really help my kill speed. I think the fcr and +15% mana helps more. IMO, level 16 HoW > lvl 9 Fanat. But, since I've never used Beast, that's just hypothetical.
Heart of Wolvern compared to Fanaticism, adds more damage/ar, but it doesn't add attack speed, which is more important than the others. The differences in AR/Damage aren't going to be noticeable long term.
lvl 16 HoW has + 125% damage and +130% attack. lvl 9 fanaticism has +93% damage (party), +80% attack, +29% IAS and it doesn't have a chance of dying. There's no comparison there.
That increased IAS will help your kill speed more than the fcr/mana will for sure. There are other ways to hit the breakpoint and use better items in your mainhand than the wizardspike.
SnickerSnack
17-04-2008, 06:10
If I go with beast, I can still get 50% fcr by using arachs, mage fist and a fcr ammy or ring. I have a +1 necro/+10 fcr/+18 res all ammy.
If your goal is merely to bring down mini-uber killing time to 15 minutes, you don't need to spend more high runes.
I like your strategy, but the merc's obedience is in a thresher. I would have to remake it in a polearm with better reach, but that wouldn't be too expensive. The merc gear you listed has no life leech. Is that not a problem since he won't get hit much? I would, of course, use Guillame's for mini-ubers and VampGaze for everything else. Sometimes, when doing Lilith, she'll kill him 3-4 times, other times, he will survive the whole time. I guess that sometimes he gets targeted, and other times he doesn't. Your strategy should work very well for me.
That increased IAS will help your kill speed more than the fcr/mana will for sure. There are other ways to hit the breakpoint and use better items in your mainhand than the wizardspike.
With Oath, I had Oath on mainhand, wizzy on switch, and I used a +3 summon wand just for getting skellies. I could use Beast with HotO on switch. The only problem with using HotO over Wizzy is resists, it's just a pain to have ~5 inventory slots full of light resist small charms.
Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to make a better obedience for my merc, make eth fort, and put a Guillame's in my stash for bosses/ubers. Then, I'll make Beast (I can use any one hander, but is there a reason to use one over the others?) and keep that on my main weapon slot. I'll have Wizzy on switch just for teleing long distances, and a +3 summon wand in my backpack just for starting my army. I'll use Arach's, Magefist and Wisp Projector. I'm not sure about the other ring, but I think I have one with fcr and +30 light res. That way I'll have the 48 bp with Beast and the 75 bp with Wizzy. When I switch to HotO, I'll still get the 75 bp.
When I get more runes: Infinity for Merc, SoJ for necro and maybe HotO so I don't have to carry the wand around.
Right now, I have an amethyst in the Shako; I could put an ort in it for light res. It shouldn't be too hard to get my light res high without wizzy.
To all: thanks for the help.
NumtyDoo
17-04-2008, 12:04
the reach on the mercs weapon should not be an issue. IIRC the only skills that reach is a big deal on is zeal, fury, and ww. merc AI will always close the distance before striking, jab only attacks one monster at a time, so he will not lose out on missed hits.
Mercs have a fixed reach, no matter what the weapon, so you can ignore the weapon range.
If I go with beast, I can still get 50% fcr by using arachs, mage fist and a fcr ammy or ring. I have a +1 necro/+10 fcr/+18 res all ammy.
You want to put fcr in a slot that isn't going to take away from +skill items. +skills are probably the most important. Magefist is definitely the best way to get fcr there. Or Trang gloves (and gain +2 curses).
The merc gear you listed has no life leech. Is that not a problem since he won't get hit much?
You can always swap out the Guillaume's for a Ral'd Andy Visage or the Fort for a CoH (8% lifesteal). If you don't want to do either, lifetapping and letting the merc hit, then switching back to amp is viable unless you're fighting players 8 dclone.
With Oath, I had Oath on mainhand, wizzy on switch, and I used a +3 summon wand just for getting skellies. I could use Beast with HotO on switch. The only problem with using HotO over Wizzy is resists, it's just a pain to have ~5 inventory slots full of light resist small charms.
There are a few routes you can go. Resist all scs are really useful if you can get them. A route I like to go, personally, is to use a Chains of Honor (65 resist all) over an Enigma(keep it in stash or for if you want to go boss hunting). I have more fun clearing stuff out than I do teleporting to stuff. Plus if your resists are around 40-50ish in Hell, your army should offer plenty of protection against most stuff. Granted you still want to max resists, but you don't want to sacrifice something as awesome as fanaticism for it.
I'll use Arach's, Magefist and Wisp Projector. I'm not sure about the other ring, but I think I have one with fcr and +30 light res. That way I'll have the 48 bp with Beast and the 75 bp with Wizzy. When I switch to HotO, I'll still get the 75 bp.
Why is the Wisp Projector so important? HoW, especially level 5 version of it, is borderline useless. Considering any ranged attack will kill it in Hell difficulty, and there's only 13 charges of it, you're going to find yourself spending a lot of money to recharge your ring. The only reason I say this is because I've done it. I used oath back before they fixed the trick, and later on tried the wisp projector. It's not worth it. Use 2 SoJ's or SoJ/Bk ring. It's better for everything all around.
You might consider using an AoKL over a +3 summon wand as it adds a total of +5 to the important summon skills (+3 RS, +3SM, +2 all summon). It has 10 fcr, but you don't want to use that puppy to teleport with. Of course if you just don't want to deal with having to swap things out all the time, a hoto on switch is your best bet.
When I get more runes: Infinity for Merc, SoJ for necro and maybe HotO so I don't have to carry the wand around.
I would prioritize the Infinity over most everything else, except maybe the arachnid mesh and the gloves. Those three items will make the most noticeable impact on your performance.
I'd say in order of importance:
Magefist/Trang Gloves - This is first because it's the cheapest and easiet to get.
Arachnid Mesh - This is second, because with your current setup you'll be flat cooking with fcr at this point.
Merc Infinity - With your fcr in place, you multiply your damage output big time.
Beast - Icing on the cake, more damage. If you make this, put it in a non-ethereal double axe. It can only go in axes, hammers and scepters, and a double axe has the lowest requirements of a 1h axe that can still make the runeword.
2x Sojs/BK - Increases everything, CE, skeletons, etc, and your mana pool goes up substantially.
Hoto - Now you have your switch item to replace the Wizardspike.
SnickerSnack
18-04-2008, 02:19
Mercs have a fixed reach, no matter what the weapon, so you can ignore the weapon range.
Thanks, that's good to know.
You can always swap out the Guillaume's for a Ral'd Andy Visage or the Fort for a CoH (8% lifesteal).
The whole point of guillame's was to get more crushing blow - there is no alternative to guillame's (unless I want to use duress, hmmm. open wounds would keep her from healing). I won't use it all the time; it will only be for bosses/ubers. I will try lifetapping when the merc gets in danger. That might work well. The extra crushing blow should make up for the inefficiency of using tap over amp ~10% of the time. If that doesn't work well, I will consider using duress and andy's or CoH.
AoKL over a +3 summon wand
I completely agree, I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
Thanks for the list of priorities, shijo. Right now, however, my only trouble is with Lilith, and if I want to use Greyeagle's strategy, infinity will probably not work as well as obedience, despite its greatness.
I've got magefist already (if I don't have a spare, my light sorc will do without until I can get another), and I'll get an arach's next. Since the Arach's will replace Thundergod's Vigor, I'm looking at Wisp for the light absorb (although % absorb isn't as good as integer absorb). The HoW form oath didn't get hit much, so the charges on wisp might be useful from time to time, but I don't see how such low level spirits would help much in hell.
Why is the Wisp Projector so important? HoW, especially level 5 version of it, is borderline useless. Considering any ranged attack will kill it in Hell difficulty, and there's only 13 charges of it, you're going to find yourself spending a lot of money to recharge your ring. The only reason I say this is because I've done it. I used oath back before they fixed the trick, and later on tried the wisp projector. It's not worth it. Use 2 SoJ's or SoJ/Bk ring. It's better for everything all around.
Since the Arach's will replace Thundergod's Vigor, I'm looking at Wisp for the light absorb (although % absorb isn't as good as integer absorb). The HoW form oath didn't get hit much, so the charges on wisp might be useful from time to time, but I don't see how such low level spirits would help much in hell.
Level 5 HoW has 272 life, so it's extremely vulnerable in hell. According to Arreat Summit, Act 1 Fallen does an average of 50 points of damage in hell, so like shijo said, it won't take long for something to kill it.
But I don't think thats how you should even use the HoW. Especially if you'r using Beast(which some say is already overkill), keeping a HoW with you all the time is hardly necessary. I would only summon HoW when facing with a tough unique monster or against act bosses(ie. when there's only few monsters, so it's less likely the spirit will be targeted) or maybe against physical immunes if you don't already have Infinity.
By the way, shijo, do you know how much it costs to recharge all 13 HoW charges back to the ring?
Also, is the 20% light absorb enough(if you also have 75% light resist)?
The whole point of guillame's was to get more crushing blow - there is no alternative to guillame's (unless I want to use duress, hmmm. open wounds would keep her from healing). I won't use it all the time; it will only be for bosses/ubers. I will try lifetapping when the merc gets in danger. That might work well. The extra crushing blow should make up for the inefficiency of using tap over amp ~10% of the time. If that doesn't work well, I will consider using duress and andy's or CoH.
You're right about Guillaume's, and that's my general opinion about it. However you see people often times who are happy with just the 40% on the obedience or the infinity they decide to use. Now if you use another polearm, there isn't much of a choice, but that's why I mentioned the ral'd andy visage.
But I don't think thats how you should even use the HoW. Especially if you'r using Beast(which some say is already overkill), keeping a HoW with you all the time is hardly necessary. I would only summon HoW when facing with a tough unique monster or against act bosses(ie. when there's only few monsters, so it's less likely the spirit will be targeted) or maybe against physical immunes if you don't already have Infinity.
That's a valid point, and it's a matter of personal preference really. I value the +1 skill and the extra 25% max mana from the SoJ over the little bit of increase fromt he HoW. It's similiar to how I usually decide not to use a CTA because it's not the easiest thing to reapply if I want to keep an AoKL on switch. The bonus is helpful but it's not necessary. Same opinion some folks have with Beast, although I consider that a non-negotiable item. Just preference I guess.
By the way, shijo, do you know how much it costs to recharge all 13 HoW charges back to the ring?
Offhand? No I don't. But if I had to take a guess, maybe 20 or 30k gold. I could be way off there, so if anyone wants to try it out feel free to correct me. Really just depends on how often you use it. If you use it once a game, it won't be a big deal. If you want to keep it out 24/7, it's gonna get expensive.
Also, is the 20% light absorb enough(if you also have 75% light resist)?
I'm not totally sure I understand your question. 20% light abosrb, if I understand it correctly, means 20% of lightning damage that hits you does nothing to you. That's good stuff, and worth wearing the ring (or two) in situations like WSK or Act 4 areas with those stupid gloams.
I'm not totally sure I understand your question. 20% light abosrb, if I understand it correctly, means 20% of lightning damage that hits you does nothing to you. That's good stuff, and worth wearing the ring (or two) in situations like WSK or Act 4 areas with those stupid gloams.
Im planing on making a necro for area runs, including WSK, so I was wondering if wisp + 75% light resist is good enough against the souls. I know I could just equip thundergods when doing WSK but I dont like switching gear and I would lose the +1 all skills and the 75% fcr breakpoint by taking arach off.
Im planing on making a necro for area runs, including WSK, so I was wondering if wisp + 75% light resist is good enough against the souls. I know I could just equip thundergods when doing WSK but I dont like switching gear and I would lose the +1 all skills and the 75% fcr breakpoint by taking arach off.
You could use a pair of wisps and you wouldn't lose any fcr, unless you have an fcr ring. In players 1, 75 resist + wisp could be enough. I don't teleport a lot in there, so I usually stand at max range and let my army kill stuff while I CE safely out of range of their lightning attacks. Probably just have to try it out and see what works for you.
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