Any Charge Guides?

[Gmanju]

Has anyone seen a charge paly guide? I made one about 6 years ago, but to much changed in the game, anyone know one?

[Morathi]

Here (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=511532) is probably the most detailed guide on this forum in my opinion. Very informative and should take a good couple hours to read :wink:.

[[exile]]

His weapon suggestions aren't particularly great though; SSoG has always been more of a underdog-PvM-build kind of player.

Are you looking to play PvM or PvP?

[maiku]

I think his weapon selection is pretty decent. They're mostly uniques or reasonably easy to make rune words like "Oath." But I'd also include "Death" as one relatively easy to make and very Charger worthy. Ethereal Glorious Axe or Decapitator...mmm. Crushing Blow, Deadly Strike, insane ED, etc. Lack of IAS not a concern on this build.

[Gmanju]

Intrested in making a pvp charger, was wondering what the most powerfull weapon would be. I was thinking of just using a ebotd spear for one shots.

[AxlStrife]

I've been contemplating a Conviction Charger pimpin' IK set minus helm obv for pvm and style points. Would probably run Azurewrath/HoZ for pvp and/or Glimmershred/Dragonscale(lol) on switch for IM.

[[exile]]

EDeath Decapitator is the most damaging two-handed Charge weapon. EBotDs (War Pike or Thunder Maul) come close, but just how close depends on the rest of your gear (ie. the amount of DS you have).

[mephiztophelez]

Intrested in making a pvp charger, was wondering what the most powerfull weapon would be.
an eth Death Decapitator or Glorious Axe.

however, i'd actually suggest a boring old Grief/Hoz setup. the grief means you can now have Smite as a decent backup attack and the HoZ is just plain nice.

shields help a lot in PvP. i only really use my e-Death decapitator when i'm feeling silly. in my experience, 2h chargers tend to die horribly in PvP. sure, they can 1-shot a 5k life character, but it's all or nothing. usually a case of: hit, they die, miss, YOU die.

[Hyphy]

I really don't know what this e Death Decapitator or Glorious Axe business is, but its definitely the worst idea, unless you can tweak your attack speed.. even though the damage maybe the "highest", it is also the "slowest".
once you pass the 17k+ mark for one handed, and the 30k+ mark for 2 handed, the damage really doesn't change.
Trust me, I've made a charger like 3 times in the past, not saying its the best "experience" but i've came too many conclusions..

1. There are basically only 2 types of standard charger builds.
Fort build, where it focuses mostly on damage, and getting 90+ deadly strike
and
Enigma build focuses mostly on Deadly Strike and mobility.
2. The only really good Charge weapons are Grief, Death , Ebotd, and Death Cleaver*
Death Cleaver, is only good if it is ethereal, and your a Fort build.
Ebotd.. some use Thunder Maul, some use, War Pike. I have a Archon Staff on Mule that I sometimes use.
Death~ A good Weapon for "1 HIT KOING" but, The wrong weapon to but it in is the slowest weapon possible.. their is no added IAS to start off, don't make it worse.
Grief~ Berserker Axe is only really good for Charge/Smite, PB is the way to go.
PB #1....yarly it is.
Also, their is a ZOD BUGGED Thresher, Destruction Ladder Rune Word... Never seen this before... but it is possible.


Their are different "Builds" I know that but these are the best and the only way to survive in the PvP world unless they lag.

[mephiztophelez]

charge isn't affected by IAS. all weapons charge @ 5 frames.

the "norm attack" swings you make when someone gets stuck on a landscape feature however, is affected by IAS.

[Hyphy]

still slow

<--- namb wan charger

[[exile]]

...All weapons swing at exactly the same speed when using Charge. Regardless of base weapon type or IAS.

[Gimmershred]

for a 2hander you use death. for a 1hander you use grief, since you can also use smite then. 1 hander is obviously better, but you will get chargebug a lot. 2 hander is more fun and you won't have to rejoin all the time. With an edeath 2 hander you get around +-9-30k damage with over +-75% deadly strike.

attackspeed only matters if you are right in front of a char and you click charge then, cause it will do a normal attack. But really, attackspeed doesnt matter that much.

[MORKLEET]

use botd warpike over death if you really want a real quality 1 hit ko on good players (5.2k + life, max dr 15+k defense). death in any weapon never can do that.

[[exile]]

You're forgetting the huge DS on Death. Average damage comes out higher.

Some numbers from the German calculator with CoA, Fortitude, Highlord's, Gores, +90 Max from GCs.

EDEath Decapitator:
9548-29168 base; with 93%DS build comes to 18427-56294 (37360 average).

EBotD War Pike:
6592-38324 base; with 48%DS build comes to 9756-56719 (33237 average).
For comparison's sake, let's throw in a Guillaume's for 63%DS: 10744-62468 (36606 average).

[Gimmershred]

lol, death is better then botd. And i wouldn't use fortitude. 300% ed really isnt that much if you have charge and all synergies maxed. Rather would take a coh.

[Gimmershred]

i got to correct myself a bit. Range 5 is better in some cases.

[MORKLEET]

;6293291']You're forgetting the huge DS on Death. Average damage comes out higher.

Some numbers from the German calculator with CoA, Fortitude, Highlord's, Gores, +90 Max from GCs.

EDEath Decapitator:
9548-29168 base; with 93%DS build comes to 18427-56294 (37360 average).

EBotD War Pike:
6592-38324 base; with 48%DS build comes to 9756-56719 (33237 average).
For comparison's sake, let's throw in a Guillaume's for 63%DS: 10744-62468 (36606 average).

you can show numbers for average dmg on barb or smiter but speakig for average dmg on charger mean nothing if victims die in 1-2 hits. here are my numbers with your maths: max dmg youc an hit with death, after deadly, after pvp reduction and 50 dr is 4861. max dmg on botd is 6387. you dothe math how you will kill 5.3k life hammerdin with death. also we can remove fortitude from the list for more realistic charger dmg, as well as the 90 max scs since 132/45 or 20/36 is by far better choice. in the end botd still do the one hit ko while death stay away even from 1 hit ko on sin. and if we talk about 2-3 hit ko then it really doesnt matter which weapon you will choose since both willd o it.

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

This is what stops me from making a budget charger with a recently got death decap.

Charge, opponent blocks, swing big axe, opponent kill you.

This is why shield chargers are great, once the initial check failes you can still smite.

[arbing]

you can show numbers for average dmg on barb or smiter but speakig for average dmg on charger mean nothing if victims die in 1-2 hits. here are my numbers with your maths: max dmg youc an hit with death, after deadly, after pvp reduction and 50 dr is 4861. max dmg on botd is 6387. you dothe math how you will kill 5.3k life hammerdin with death. also we can remove fortitude from the list for more realistic charger dmg, as well as the 90 max scs since 132/45 or 20/36 is by far better choice. in the end botd still do the one hit ko while death stay away even from 1 hit ko on sin. and if we talk about 2-3 hit ko then it really doesnt matter which weapon you will choose since both willd o it.

care to share your calculation? plus most likely you will not hit the max damage shown, that's why you calculate with average damage. Plus death's damage is infact higher than ebotd counting in the ds%.

[MORKLEET]

care to share your calculation? plus most likely you will not hit the max damage shown, that's why you calculate with average damage. Plus death's damage is infact higher than ebotd counting in the ds%.

i use the numbers from [exile]. max dmg *2 for deadly /6 for pvp /2 for 50dr. believe what you want, both are good weapons but death is like lowering dmg and importing balance on a such hazard char like charger. ofcourse warpike have downsides like fhr and stucking with this 5 range in summons, but so do have and range 3 death. anyway with [exile] setup you can see a 9k more max dmg on warpike, with 65 deadly strike, do the maths yourself. also since most ppl think charger is 1 hit ko char, tell me how many 1 hit ko`s you did with your death on really good players. i guess zero (unless its necro/noes sorc)

[arbing]

i think you ARE doing the calculation wrong.

According to [exile]'s number
EDEATH WITH 93% ds, your damage will be 18427-56294 (37360 average). which after the pvp penality and 50% dr= 1535-4691 pvp damage. (3113 average pvp damage)

for a ebotd with 63% ds, your damage will be 10744-62468 (36606 average). which after the pvp penality and 50% dr= 895-5205 pvp damage. (3050 average pvp damage).

I don't know where you pull these numbers from (9k more damage?). It's a well known fact that Edeath's damage is greater than ebotd damage when counting in the ds%. Oh by the way, use average damage when comparing the damage, because it is unlikly that you will hit the max damage everytime.

[MORKLEET]

brrrrrrrrr ok last attempt to prove you wp is better than death

watch teh exile numbers:

EDEath Decapitator:
9548-29168 base; with 93%DS build comes to 18427-56294 (37360 average).

EBotD War Pike:
6592-38324 base; with 48%DS build comes to 9756-56719 (33237 average).
For comparison's sake, let's throw in a Guillaume's for 63%DS: 10744-62468 (36606 average).
Reply With Quote

check the base dmg without ds count. youc an see botd have 9150 more max dmg withotu the deadly strike. 9k max dmg with <<watch this>>65!!<watch this>> deadly strike. how can you ignore this for the stupid average dmg? so based on your calcs in your last post botd and death do the same dmg with this average thing, while in the same time botd have the chance to hit up to 1500 more pure dmg than any death. i also talk from expirience. can ask one of top eu hamers to register here and explain you the results of our duels and tell you which weapon make his 5.2-3k life max block max dr hamer die 2 times in a row from 1 hit and few times in one hit and better overall. anyway i loose the biger part of the duels but that not the point :grin: other way is use hero editor and check all this vs any char you want. if all this cant convince you then i'm out, trust whetever youw ant and listen all this "well known facts"
byebye

[arbing]

What? 38324x 1.65 (ds) = 63234 max damage (guill helm is in used)
29168x 2 (ds)= 58336 max damage (guill helm is in used also for comparing)

that's the max damage difference. 63234-58336= 4898 AFTER DS counted. which is 408 pvp max damage differences between the two after 50% dr. Plus you can't rely on hitting your gosu max damage EVERYTIME (in fact ebotd damage is lower than Edeath when comparing in AVERAGE damage). Well according to you a lightning sorc's damage is WAYYYY higher than a fire sorc damage. :P
See how many people here agree that Edeath is a superior weapon when it come to charge.

Good luck hitting max damage everytime you duel. ^^

[SicHalo]

for a 2hander you use death. for a 1hander you use grief, since you can also use smite then. 1 hander is obviously better, but you will get chargebug a lot. 2 hander is more fun and you won't have to rejoin all the time. With an edeath 2 hander you get around +-9-30k damage with over +-75% deadly strike.

attack speed only matters if you are right in front of a char and you click charge then, cause it will do a normal attack. But really, attackspeed doesnt matter that much.

how about carry both u change grief + hoz or exile when u need to take on barb etc

Yeah attack speed does not matter with charge only the swing after if charge is blocked/misses and u use a normal swing


Also eth death does DO MORE dmg as i think u can get a 100% ds setup with that anyway.. and damage is calculated more in average dmg. As hitting max dmg is more of a luck roll it almost like the grief vs botd argument. Only a small amout of thetme does botd out dmg grief but we all know grief is superior due to the high average dmg.

[arbing]

brrrrrrrrr ok last attempt to prove you wp is better than death

watch teh exile numbers:

EDEath Decapitator:
9548-29168 base; with 93%DS build comes to 18427-56294 (37360 average).

EBotD War Pike:
6592-38324 base; with 48%DS build comes to 9756-56719 (33237 average).
For comparison's sake, let's throw in a Guillaume's for 63%DS: 10744-62468 (36606 average).
Reply With Quote

check the base dmg without ds count. youc an see botd have 9150 more max dmg withotu the deadly strike. 9k max dmg with <<watch this>>65!!<watch this>> deadly strike. how can you ignore this for the stupid average dmg? so based on your calcs in your last post botd and death do the same dmg with this average thing, while in the same time botd have the chance to hit up to 1500 more pure dmg than any death. i also talk from expirience. can ask one of top eu hamers to register here and explain you the results of our duels and tell you which weapon make his 5.2-3k life max block max dr hamer die 2 times in a row from 1 hit and few times in one hit and better overall. anyway i loose the biger part of the duels but that not the point :grin: other way is use hero editor and check all this vs any char you want. if all this cant convince you then i'm out, trust whetever youw ant and listen all this "well known facts"
byebye

you also forgot, what makes Edeath superior than Ebotd for a charger is the high ds% in Edeath. Which make up for the lower ed%. Most new comer look at the max damage instead of counting average damage (which is the true damage value)

[MORKLEET]

Most new comer look at the max damage instead of counting average damage (which is the true damage value)

too bad kido there is a word filter and cant explain you exactly how some gozu players like you stay newcomers forever




Also eth death does DO MORE dmg as i think u can get a 100% ds setup with that anyway.. and damage is calculated more in average dmg. As hitting max dmg is more of a luck roll it almost like the grief vs botd argument. Only a small amout of thetme does botd out dmg grief but we all know grief is superior due to the high average dmg.

nice try but the worst possible example. more accurate example for this case would be botd gpa vs grief ba in terms of dmg and range. no doubt you kill ez all hamers with range 3 but how you will average the dmg on 1 hit ko char? how you will average the dmg on my charger when he did 1 hit ko on 5.3k max dr paladin 2 times in a row and few times separate? you know death cant do it, will need at least 2 hits and i hope you know vs good one you will have too little chances to do a hit, not to count block. so please average all this and if possible since you are on europe, work with the names of the chars vs which you proove death is better over botd. thanks!

[[exile]]

nice try but the worst possible example. more accurate example for this case would be botd gpa vs grief ba in terms of dmg and range. no doubt you kill ez all hamers with range 3 but how you will average the dmg on 1 hit ko char? how you will average the dmg on my charger when he did 1 hit ko on 5.3k max dr paladin 2 times in a row and few times separate? you know death cant do it, will need at least 2 hits and i hope you know vs good one you will have too little chances to do a hit, not to count block. so please average all this and if possible since you are on europe, work with the names of the chars vs which you proove death is better over botd. thanks!

Actually, that was the best possible example. Why are you comparing a two-handed weapon to a one-handed weapon? His point was that although BotD Berserkers have higher maximum damage, their poor minimum damage makes them far less useful- which is exactly the discussion we're having here.

Look, I'll agree with you that EBotD has higher potential numbers. But you want to argue with us to "average all this"? Maybe you should average all those times your damage rolled far too low and your friend killed you.

[arbing]

too bad kido there is a word filter and cant explain you exactly how some gozu players like you stay newcomers forever




nice try but the worst possible example. more accurate example for this case would be botd gpa vs grief ba in terms of dmg and range. no doubt you kill ez all hamers with range 3 but how you will average the dmg on 1 hit ko char? how you will average the dmg on my charger when he did 1 hit ko on 5.3k max dr paladin 2 times in a row and few times separate? you know death cant do it, will need at least 2 hits and i hope you know vs good one you will have too little chances to do a hit, not to count block. so please average all this and if possible since you are on europe, work with the names of the chars vs which you proove death is better over botd. thanks!

Wow no offence but you really don't get it do you? :rolleyes:

Okay i will explain 1 more time the number 10744-62468 means EVERYTIME you hit will either be 10744 TO 62468
which means it's possible to hit BETWEEN those number you CANNOT ignore the low damage rolls. AGAIN no offense but do you see anyone here agree with you? I guess not.

Which part don't you understand? it's AVERAGE damage of the damage that counts. AGAIN if it still does not get it through you, i will quote [exile]'s point: His point was that although BotD Berserkers have higher maximum damage, their poor minimum damage makes them far less useful- which is exactly the discussion we're having here. you completely miss the point.

AGAIN higher max damage does not mean a weapon is superior in terms of damage. IT'S AVERAGE DAMAGE THAT COUNTS AS "REAL" damage. It's grade 3 math. for example: which will more likely to roll a higher number?
1-10 or 7-8?

Again check how many people agree with you? NONE :rolleyes: (btw many daibloii.net forum peeps are much more knowledgable than the b.net peeps) If it still does not get through you, I feel sorry for your grade 3 math teacher. And i won't bother do the explaining to you anymore. Again good luck hitting your max damage EVERYTIME. :wink3: Peace ^^

[Uncle_Mike]

Again check how many people agree with you? NONE :rolleyes: (btw many daibloii.net forum peeps are much more knowledgable than the b.net peeps) If it still does not get through you, I feel sorry for your grade 3 math teacher. And i won't bother do the explaining to you anymore. Again good luck hitting your max damage EVERYTIME. :wink3: Peace ^^

can we please leave his maths teacher out of it? :rolleyes:

A few posters have already provided calculations, it's up to him (and anyone who will decide to read the thread in the future) to either accept it or not. :wink3:

[SicHalo]

On that note i might make a charger 1 point smiter when i get back for easter so i expect some duels vs euro nl peeps. And yes i was reffering to the grief ba vs ebotd ba in terms of max dmg and average dmg.

You can't rule out the fact that there is a chance of a high dmg roll on botd 2 hander but it also has a very low minimum dmg. You cant assume u will always roll a max or high dmg hit this is why averages are taken into consideration and a weapon with a smaller maximum and minimum dmg range i.e like grief is going to produce higher avearge damage and a higher chance to hit high damage rolls

for example: which will more likely to roll a higher number?
1-10 or 7-8?


Like this concept mentioned here.

Also one question will botd range 5 make a difference vs hammers to use i.e out range the hammerdins hammer idea as alot of charges ive seen use this vs hammers and death vs rest.?

[Hyphy]

A charger should never be 2 handed mainly in the 1st place, so stick w/ edeathz/phx and zeal

[frooglemon]

I agree with Hyphy but then i also disagree. Over several months i made 2 chargers at the same time. On one of them i used a grief and exile while on the other i used an ebotdtm (a 1700 dmg one) just for the freakin raw damage. As far as skills go i went the max damage route (charge and all its synergies) and both works well. Chargers like any other melee build need attack rating. I found that if you miss on your first hit you will probably die (unless opponent sucks). With ebotdtm if i hit i do a nice 10k-37k. Of couse it does less in pvp but a 40k kills anyone basically except a full vita barb or bmana sorc. grief 1 hand was nice because if you miss you just smite and they die but then you are really just a smiter using charge to move around.

Personally i prefered the 2 hander simply because i already have a smiter. WARNING (((Your Res Tend To be VERY Low with 2 hander))) but then again you cant block either so your a walking bomb anyways :)

Mega cons of a 2 hander vs 1 hander

1 Hand- Sure you have nice dmg but 90+% of the time you will need more than one hit to kill.
2 Hand- No block, no Res, zons kill you easy with guided since you cant block, elemental u die unless you stack, and smiters.....Your pittaful against them unless you get lucky and finally hit them


As for crushing blow and all that stuff, if you hit someone with a 2 hand, most likely they are dead so you dont need all that much with 2 hand. 1 Handers, this stuff is your best friend.

*Note fant does help your AR but not overwhelmingly. Vigor and salvation aren't bad to run around with either (i still top 30k with them on). For fun max vigor, might, Charge, Holy shock, and Lite res to add another 10k of elemental damage for yourself. This tends to work better with the 1 hand weapons.

Hope i have some useful info, this is just how i like my chargers. Have fun 1 Hit pwning. :)

I can post gear if you want later

[arbing]

oops sorry about the teacher thing ;P

[Veghus]

Hi all!

First of all look here: http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2203/edeathdecapitatortv5.jpg

Can you see the attack rating?
Not even 8k!
For a 2handed charger it is the most important thing to have a high AR to be able to connect THE HIT!
What is a high average dmg good for if you cannot connect a hit at all?
Death or BoTD?!
It does not matter, what matters is-can you hit a max block pala or barb with huge def?...well with 8k AR - hardly.
Thats why the best setup is Angelics:amu+ring/Raven.
If you swap highlord+2nd raven for angelics the difference is cca 4-5k AR!
So it is not important what weapon you use, it is the AR that makes a charger good/bad, able to hit/not able to hit!
The dmg counts only after you were able to hit. A charger needs min 15k AR.
That should be the first goal, than think about the weapon.
So a charger has to choose between AR /than angelics is a must and you loose DS from Highlord/ and high%DS.
But you can still get a nice DS from Death+Gores if you choose to use Death but than again you loose +30to all attributes that BoTD offers.
In my opinion the best 2 hander charger look like this:

BerBer Coa
Angelics combo: Amu+Ring
Raven
Enigma
Dungos
Gloves: Bloodfist/Draculs/IK/Rares
eth Death/eth BoTD
Boots: Gores/Treks/IK/Rare with resists
Inventory:20/5, 3/xx/20, T, Anni

With this you will have:
50% DR
4+k life
15+k AR
Dmg will be huge whether Death/BoTD
but with the BoTD setup you dont have to invest any points in STR so full vita.
IMO the best weapon is an eth BoTD war pike that I am currently using on mine and can 1hit KO a hammer anytime.
But the most important thing for a charger is still the AR!

[mephiztophelez]

Hi all!

First of all look here: http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2203/edeathdecapitatortv5.jpg

why are you using a screenshot of my ancient charge/smite pally? use a screeny of YOUR charger.

AR isn't all stupid important. if i need more AR, i run with Blessed Aim active &/or use a demon limb. besides, most of the opponents you can realistically beat with a charger have pretty pithy defence anyways.

taking on a ww-user or a 40k+def smiter with a 2h charger is never going to be an easy proposition.

[Veghus]

mephiztophelez!

sorry for using your screenshot-it was just an example.
I will post my own screenshots soon.
No offense-ofc.
We are talking here about a 2handed charger-ofc a ww user or a high def/max block pala will be always hard, thats why you need a lot of AR-to be good all around.
It is not fun killing sosos or other low def/no block chars 1hit, the fun is killing the hard ones. Anyone can go and change eq vs babas and palas-and get a grief/hoz. But I dont want to and dont need to when have 20+k AR!

The cool thing about a 2hander is not killing sosos 1 hit-it can be done with anything rly, the cool thing is to 1 hit KO a barbar or hammer-and there you need the 15k AR min.

[drake]

Thats why the best setup is Angelics:amu+ring/Raven.

a charger has to choose between AR /than angelics is a must and you loose DS from Highlord/ and high%DS.

for when you need big AR i usually find this to be better than full angelics (and certainly better than angelic ammy/1x ring + raven):

HSARUS BELT + BOOTS
2x ravens (saves 30 dex for block, compared to angelics)
highlords (twice the DS of gores + angelics)

problem with this is that you cant use dungos, but with a ber'd guillaumes face, ber'd hoz and eth/up'd shaftstop, thats not a problem. the AR is a bit lower than with full angelics of course, but you get more DS, more life and CBF.

edit: highlords gives you the 20 ias you need to smite with a grief zerker as well.

[mephiztophelez]

here's a screeny of my current charger, 2h e-Death decapitator with 100%+ Deadly Strike (guilly, gores, e-Death, highlords).
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9746/64kcharge.jpg
ergo: that damage is actually 22k-64k.
i can (mostly) fix the appalling resists with a Kiras and using Salvation.

bowazons and ww-users are still nigh-on impossible however.

(oops, i've put on a few levels since that screeny, AR is now ~11k)

[drake]

thats a bit overkill on the DS :P

at lvl 92 you get 95% DS with death (46), highlords (34) and one of gores/guillaumes (15).

[mephiztophelez]

true, but dropping under 100% DS does nasty things to my minimum damage.