The Fun LLD mk. 2 [Archive] - Diablo 3 & Diablo 2 Forums

Applekid

20-02-2008, 02:08

Lets face it--LLD is fun.
It's unique, always new and changing, and surprisingly challenging!

The LLD guide was probably the best thread on this site, so lets get started on a new one for the new ladder.

People claim that LLD is dead... well, LLD will never die!!

I am a relatively new LLD'er, bursting on the scene last ladder and enjoying it ever since. I have numerous friends who LLD, and it is alive and kicking.

Although it could be better, this guide will hopefully spark interest and spur actions!!

If you're interested in a duel, I'm in US-WEST. Msg me on Applekid_ii or Saucy_Sauce.

Well...first order of business. Anybody have quirky LLD ideas that they haven't really tried out yet? I made a LLD throwzon, which... well it failed miserably, but I know why, and the next one will be better. Recently I made a lvl 19 charge/zeal who holds his own surprisingly well.

Next up for me-- 27 Frenzy Barb >:)

edit: btw... here's the link to the original LLD guide:
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=341749

yohed

20-02-2008, 03:56

I heard a double throw barb with lots of frw and ias can pk some.

My friend kyle (buhnanna on these forums) has a gg lvl 15 charger and a gg level 29 spear necro that are both geared by me, i'll post up some shots sometime soon.
-sam

forumfreak

20-02-2008, 11:31

i think a 29 spear necro is the best way to go... built some and they pretty much pwn.

just gotta watch out for those 29 fc zons though!!

sumzy

21-02-2008, 00:57

i have a lvl 12 charger unbeaten by anyone under lvl 15 on ESCL

QQ HACKS

Applekid

21-02-2008, 05:03

i think a 29 spear necro is the best way to go... built some and they pretty much pwn.

just gotta watch out for those 29 fc zons though!!

Lol... First of all a properly equipped necro shouldn't have trouble with zons in their 60's. My 29 nec takes care of zons like chump change. Res stacking also allows for quick clean-up of FoHers well into 50's and even 60's. Gogo Nega_Reincarnate >:)

Oh, btw... please avoid talking about hacks and illegitimate characters on this thread, i.e. fc zons. We're only discussing legit characters.

Thanks,
Applekid

edit:
Oo... also, a friend of mine has a 12 unbeaten by... well... just about anyone :] He also has a proper 15 summoner who takes care of business. My 19 charge/zeal is unbeaten other than a 29 zealer, two 29 smiters, and a 27 one-handed charger :)
Oh and one 34 barb... -.-
When those peeps come I get papa metal lol... Metal_Slime!!! 29 non-elemental Charge/Zeal, he ownz >:)

forumfreak

21-02-2008, 10:20

Lol... First of all a properly equipped necro shouldn't have trouble with zons in their 60's. My 29 nec takes care of zons like chump change. Res stacking also allows for quick clean-up of FoHers well into 50's and even 60's. Gogo Nega_Reincarnate >:)

Oh, btw... please avoid talking about hacks and illegitimate characters on this thread, i.e. fc zons. We're only discussing legit characters.

Thanks,
Applekid

edit:
Oo... also, a friend of mine has a 12 unbeaten by... well... just about anyone :] He also has a proper 15 summoner who takes care of business. My 19 charge/zeal is unbeaten other than a 29 zealer, two 29 smiters, and a 27 one-handed charger :)
Oh and one 34 barb... -.-
When those peeps come I get papa metal lol... Metal_Slime!!! 29 non-elemental Charge/Zeal, he ownz >:)

what kinda gear do you have?

WarlockCC

21-02-2008, 11:54

If lightning damage is a problem, wear Iratha(lvl 15 req) and/or a item that Fledgeling pointed out to me, the unique Felloak club(60% lightning resist).
Otherwise you could also make yourself a 3 sock res shield with whichever size gems fits your character level.

kafade

21-02-2008, 18:11

Me, my friend, and his friend all put our LLD's side-by-side in a duel game.
The three best of our classes (29 Steeldriver Charger, 29 Bonespear Necro, and 29 Hammerdin)
Well..
Let's just say it wasn't easy for me at all.
I got a fair number of kills but in the end the Hammerdin prevailed.
The necromancer could constantly cast bone armor on himself to make hitting him quite a burden.
And don't even get me started on charging past a Holy Shield while hammers are flying at you.

Charger dins used to be the best LLD's possible in my opinion.
But times have changed.
Bonespear and Hammerdins prevail now.

Applekid

21-02-2008, 23:04

what kinda gear do you have?

Well... First of all the armor should have at LEAST dual res, mine has approx 26 lr. The amulet should have resists as well, either one STUPID high res, or several moderately high ones. My amulet has lr as well, approximately 26, the same as my armor. My boots have 32 light res, which stacks up to about 75 altogether, just playing with average gear. My belt also has lightning resist, approximately 20. Thats 95 altogether. I also have a wand on switch that has 36 light res, or maelstrom with 40(I think...?).

You can also switch up the gear, play around with it. Keep in mind there is gear available to raise your max resists, and to combat certain classes you don't need 80 or 90 fcr...

If I get all stacked up, I can easily go over 150 lightning resist and have well enough damage and fcr to clean up zons in a flash.

Edit: Oh and in response to the Hammerdin comment...
If the hdin is legit, the necro should have no problem taking him out. The LLD necro is theoretically the best LLD available in classic. That doesn't mean everyone knows how to use them, but in theory they will always prevail.
Chargers--lol. They should never be a problem for the LLD nec.

Oo... a physical damage charge/zeal puts up a good fight tho... lol. I'm just biased towards my precious Metal_Slime :]] He pwnt a nice light zealer yesterday :]]

EDIT::::
OOOO!!!!!!!!! O_o I also heard a rumor I am DYING to try out. I heard you can shop a 30/20 priz bone from hell A2... I can't wait to try that... O_o

goomba

21-02-2008, 23:15

Oh, btw... please avoid talking about hacks and illegitimate characters on this thread, i.e. fc zons. We're only discussing legit characters.

countless times, folks have discussed how to farcast legitmately - just cause most folk are lame and do it with a hack is beside the fact.

much like in a previous patch where din's could flash aura's, there are/were a couple of folks that discovered one could "flash" via rapid changing of hot keys and create that farcast effect - if I recall correctly it was then that the coders got together to start their hax...

kafade

21-02-2008, 23:23

Edit: Oh and in response to the Hammerdin comment...
If the hdin is legit, the necro should have no problem taking him out. The LLD necro is theoretically the best LLD available in classic. That doesn't mean everyone knows how to use them, but in theory they will always prevail.
Chargers--lol. They should never be a problem for the LLD nec.

EDIT::::
OOOO!!!!!!!!! O_o I also heard a rumor I am DYING to try out. I heard you can shop a 30/20 priz bone from hell A2... I can't wait to try that... O_o

I don't know if I would go as far to say that the LLD necro is the best LLD available.
One of the most versatile but not necessarily the top of the LLD dueling.
A skilled charger, who utilizes desynch like myself can usually snipe a bonemancer in about 1-3 hits, with a large ball of mana it isn't too difficult to pull off.

I would probably say the LLD din is the most powerful LLD class available.
Their damage is higher than the necro's bonespear, yet is still magic damage..
They have higher life.
And Holy Shield is more useful at a low level than bone armor.
This is all considering..
The din knows how to desynch properly..
Elsewise he'll have no chance.

And yes..Prizmatic Bone Shields of the Deflecting are nice..

goomba

21-02-2008, 23:24

OOOO!!!!!!!!! O_o I also heard a rumor I am DYING to try out. I heard you can shop a 30/20 priz bone from hell A2... I can't wait to try that... O_o

this is news? :grin::laugh:

yes, you can shop 30/20 priz 20 bones, and grims.
you can also shop 30/20 12% dtm blue bones/grims.
you can also shop 30/20 high defense grims

essentially all of these will have low clvl requirements.

periodically I like to barter over such items, especially the less common/colorful items. I have a lvl 27 30/20 27x defense brown grim shield that has 38 resist all languishing on a mule...

I don't say this to advocate it's use in lld, but I know for a fact, a certain number of opponents you may face will have such items on hand for pvp - many may also employ the use of a5 socked uniques to further increase their life/mana/resists or twink str/dex.

all it does is unbalance the playing field pvp-wise, even at that level...

if you intend to excel in the arena use your imagination as to what is possible and plan accordingly to counteract it - cause I assure you that some of your opponents are not only using fhr/fcr/ias/frw/aiming/farcasting hax, but are also using autoheal/mana hacks and finally A5 sockets.

fledgeling

22-02-2008, 01:02

kafade

22-02-2008, 01:15

level 29 charger? I think they can use a 130dmg battlehammer easily
(150 bh was max at level 29?)
that's overkill

Yes they definitely can.
Mine is just a basic 2-handed charger.
I just built onto my trademark 24-bonesnap-charger..
Tossed a Perfect Steeldriver, Rattlecage, and a perfect life / fhr and str belt on him and converted him like so.

A battlehammer is a splendid weapon.
My charger last season used Perfect Ward + 132 battlehammer at level 27.

The best LLD battlehammer I've seen this season was 144 -20 at level 27 requirements (dude wouldn't sell though).

Applekid

22-02-2008, 01:50

this is news? :grin::laugh:

yes, you can shop 30/20 priz 20 bones, and grims.
you can also shop 30/20 12% dtm blue bones/grims.
you can also shop 30/20 high defense grims

essentially all of these will have low clvl requirements.

periodically I like to barter over such items, especially the less common/colorful items. I have a lvl 27 30/20 27x defense brown grim shield that has 38 resist all languishing on a mule...

I don't say this to advocate it's use in lld, but I know for a fact, a certain number of opponents you may face will have such items on hand for pvp - many may also employ the use of a5 socked uniques to further increase their life/mana/resists or twink str/dex.

all it does is unbalance the playing field pvp-wise, even at that level...

if you intend to excel in the arena use your imagination as to what is possible and plan accordingly to counteract it - cause I assure you that some of your opponents are not only using fhr/fcr/ias/frw/aiming/farcasting hax, but are also using autoheal/mana hacks and finally A5 sockets.

LLD necro, statistically, is actually top tier for LLD... That's why it was created. The only 29 hdin that I've been bested by makes use of edits, which I noted I am discounting. I myself don't use any hacks, so I'm not giving any credit to anybody who does. I tolerate, though disapprove, of tmc/redvex/sok quest but I do not use them myself. Btw my necro is undefeated by any paladin (other than the hdin noted ^), charger or otherwise. If you're on US West, I'd love a duel.

As for the legit farcast tactics, yes, those existed, and I saw one last ladder, but do they still exist in the new ladder...?

I can't wait to go buy one of those shields... I'm not using it for pvp, just my new blizz sorc.

SOLEboy

22-02-2008, 02:20

whats the best program to record duels? i dont see any d2c lld duels on youtube and we should have them!!

kafade

22-02-2008, 02:28

Fraps is probably a good bet.

yohed

22-02-2008, 03:36

I've seen 29 spear necros get blasted by 30 speeders. I'm not sure if you guys count 30 is lld but everybody on ESCNL does.

I've got a prepatch 168 damage lvl 29 battle hammer. :azn:

Applekid

22-02-2008, 09:04

I've seen 29 spear necros get blasted by 30 speeders. I'm not sure if you guys count 30 is lld but everybody on ESCNL does.

I've got a prepatch 168 damage lvl 29 battle hammer. :azn:

lol. The purpose of lld was to not use overpowered lvl 30 skills (ww?).
And all 30 speeders on USWEST-- I'm up for a challenge >:)

goomba

22-02-2008, 20:40

level 29 charger? I think they can use a 130dmg battlehammer easily
(150 bh was max at level 29?)
that's overkill

I traded a 14x dmg, -req bh that had decent AR, and was clvl 30 req to someone making a lld ww barb. he was pretty pleased with his resultant ww dmg

goomba

22-02-2008, 20:45

As for the legit farcast tactics, yes, those existed, and I saw one last ladder, but do they still exist in the new ladder...?

I can't wait to go buy one of those shields... I'm not using it for pvp, just my new blizz sorc.

as far as I am aware, the legit method of farcasting still exists - but most players are too lazy to bother with it, instead preferring to employ one of the hacks. without a lot of practice, the legit method is unreliable - and in lld even more so than high lvl pvp one hit kills are common enough that one in theory wants as reliable a hit/kill as possible

I don't have any lld's, and frankly I always found it frustrating due to the very small mana bulb. I experimented with it last season with a very sick lvl 19 pike, but never really fully geared him up specifically for the sport, and didn't have a complimentary one-hand weapon/shield set up for him.

the pike is here: http://www.ninefrozentoes.net/D2/morestuff/Screenshot020.jpg and no longer in my possession. if it still exists, it'd be east NL since I last saw it before the reset.

I was amazed at the max damage of his charge attack :shocked: sorcs didn't stand a chance.

kafade

22-02-2008, 23:48

as far as I am aware, the legit method of farcasting still exists - but most players are too lazy to bother with it, instead preferring to employ one of the hacks. without a lot of practice, the legit method is unreliable - and in lld even more so than high lvl pvp one hit kills are common enough that one in theory wants as reliable a hit/kill as possible

I don't have any lld's, and frankly I always found it frustrating due to the very small mana bulb. I experimented with it last season with a very sick lvl 19 pike, but never really fully geared him up specifically for the sport, and didn't have a complimentary one-hand weapon/shield set up for him.

the pike is here: http://www.ninefrozentoes.net/D2/morestuff/Screenshot020.jpg and no longer in my possession. if it still exists, it'd be east NL since I last saw it before the reset.

I was amazed at the max damage of his charge attack :shocked: sorcs didn't stand a chance.

If you combine:

Angelics Mantle + Ammy + Halo
You get +50 mana.

Add that onto the mana bonus you get from Sigon's helm (pair it with gloves) and you have +80 mana.

With that mana increase you can get at least a good 130'ish mana on a low level charger.

And that is quite a lot of mana to charge with.

SOLEboy

23-02-2008, 06:21

do you think we can make a list of possible "gg" damages for certain items for certain levels?

when i get home im going to post the lld weaps i have.. :)

hope mine are good enough!!

forumfreak

23-02-2008, 16:27

im also interested. do they also vary in damage between the different realms?

sculpen

24-02-2008, 00:16

You can use this chart (from the first LLD thread) to gauge whether or not an lld weapon is good damage for its level. Apply these percentages to the base damage of the weapon and see how yours compares.

Req'd Level.........ED%........Min-Max......IAS
9......................70...........4-7
10....................80...........4-10
13....................90...........4-10
14....................90...........4-14
15....................105.........4-14
17....................105.........4-14...........20
18....................105.........8-20
19....................130.........8-20
24....................150.........8-20
26....................150.........8-20...........30

So if you're talking about a level 19 Pike for example, the highest possible damage is 40-164. This is nearly impossible, as it requires 3 perfect damage mods, AND perfect min-max mods. Heres a short list of some popular weapons in popular levels.

War Hammer- 12: 38-62 15: 42-73 19: 51-86

Pike- 12: 29-123 15: 32-143 19: 40-164

An idea of mine is to compare the average damage of your weapon to the average of the "ideal weapon", as a form of a damage rating system. For example, my level 12 Paladin uses a 32-49 war hammer. Its average of 40.5 is 81% of the ideal 50 average, or a B-. This seems pretty accurate to me, as I always describe my hammer as slightly above average. This system doesn't consider other amazing mods like cold dmg, attack rating, ias, and -reqs though. Also, there is no difference is damage potential between realms. Looking forward to your LLD weapons posts :D

SOLEboy

24-02-2008, 01:15

forumfreak

24-02-2008, 07:51

hmmmm maybe start an item show off thread for lld? i think that would be fun. i know it wont be used as much as the regular one but itll be a start!!

Turtleism

25-02-2008, 12:33

hmmmm maybe start an item show off thread for lld? i think that would be fun. i know it wont be used as much as the regular one but itll be a start!!

perhaps insted of creating yet another lld forum destine to fail, you could incorperate it into this forum. i know it may be a crazy idea but it just might work O.o

whats the best program to record duels? i dont see any d2c lld duels on youtube and we should have them!!

here be the answers you seek: http://www.youtube.com/user/Turtleism

there you will find a few lil classic lld vids i made early last year for a laugh, i used zdsoft for recording as it allowed for 60 seconds record for free and its pretty easy to use with minimal lag caused by it.

SOLEboy

25-02-2008, 15:53

perhaps insted of creating yet another lld forum destine to fail, you could incorperate it into this forum. i know it may be a crazy idea but it just might work O.o

here be the answers you seek: http://www.youtube.com/user/Turtleism

there you will find a few lil classic lld vids i made early last year for a laugh, i used zdsoft for recording as it allowed for 60 seconds record for free and its pretty easy to use with minimal lag caused by it.

can nwe see some screen shots of your gear? :wink3:

squiggle

26-02-2008, 05:34

as far as I am aware, the legit method of farcasting still exists - but most players are too lazy to bother with it, instead preferring to employ one of the hacks. without a lot of practice, the legit method is unreliable - and in lld even more so than high lvl pvp one hit kills are common enough that one in theory wants as reliable a hit/kill as possible

I don't have any lld's, and frankly I always found it frustrating due to the very small mana bulb. I experimented with it last season with a very sick lvl 19 pike, but never really fully geared him up specifically for the sport, and didn't have a complimentary one-hand weapon/shield set up for him.

the pike is here: http://www.ninefrozentoes.net/D2/morestuff/Screenshot020.jpg and no longer in my possession. if it still exists, it'd be east NL since I last saw it before the reset.

I was amazed at the max damage of his charge attack :shocked: sorcs didn't stand a chance.

I still prefer the 17x 19 pike :D

Jabbers < All

^_^

Yes the person that bought your bh was me ofc, looking for a 165+ 30 or less bh now, 170+ would be :o

sumzy

26-02-2008, 09:04

http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii51/sumzy41/?action=view&current=Screenshot028.jpg

Here's my level 12 stunner, sucks atm with this flail though, I thought I would get a decent one from 4 imbues but I guess not...

Something like

600hp
30-110 dmg
10.5 fpa
1.1k ar
1.2 sec stun
350 def
60% ctb

To finish I just need a decent flail, get a diamond and 2 amys in this mask, hotspurs and do the 3 golden bird quests

If anyone wants to duel im on ESCL

squiggle

26-02-2008, 13:39

Yep, That barb is a ***** to duel =p with block he is a ***** to charge lock as always stunning you. So need to charge off, Recharge, repeat.

=[

kek

I'll make a 12 lld for ya when I get time :P

Applekid

27-02-2008, 02:04

kinda late, but as promised..

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot061.jpg (http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot061.jpg)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot060.jpg (http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot060.jpg)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot059.jpg (http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot059.jpg)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot058.jpg (http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot058.jpg)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot057.jpg (http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot057.jpg)
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot056.jpg (http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot056.jpg)

let me know how im doing!!

That's quite a battlehammer you have there... impressive. I myself have a 141 bh I'm quite satisfied with.

:O Today I found a double bow with 140% ed and +13 to max damage (26-75 actual damage). I feel a low lvl bowzon coming into play... I can get a 9 frame shot :O The reqs are especially low too, since it's a double bow-- 58 str and 73 dex, lvl 25 requirement. Quite an amazing find if I do say so myself.

Ahh!! The Turtle posted on my thread! Ahh!! Good to see you Seth. d2 life is at an all time high right about now ;]

Ooo... and I also decided to rebuild my lvl 29 charge/zeal into a lvl 27 charge/zeal. O.o I overbuilt too, so it'll have more life, (about 200 more...>.<) considerably more damage, and some resistance gear too ;]]]]]]]

SOLEboy

27-02-2008, 10:20

That's quite a battlehammer you have there... impressive. I myself have a 141 bh I'm quite satisfied with.

:O Today I found a double bow with 140% ed and +13 to max damage (26-75 actual damage). I feel a low lvl bowzon coming into play... I can get a 9 frame shot :O The reqs are especially low too, since it's a double bow-- 58 str and 73 dex, lvl 25 requirement. Quite an amazing find if I do say so myself.

Ahh!! The Turtle posted on my thread! Ahh!! Good to see you Seth. d2 life is at an all time high right about now ;]

Ooo... and I also decided to rebuild my lvl 29 charge/zeal into a lvl 27 charge/zeal. O.o I overbuilt too, so it'll have more life, (about 200 more...>.<) considerably more damage, and some resistance gear too ;]]]]]]]

nice bow!! what skill will you be using? guided arrow?

here's mines. not as high ED as yours. just wanted to see if i could make a viable bowazon.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot089.jpg

The Verdict: not worth going against "real" llds. but a char good enough to show off to the noobies. :thumbsup:

Applekid

28-02-2008, 01:01

nice bow!! what skill will you be using? guided arrow?

here's mines. not as high ED as yours. just wanted to see if i could make a viable bowazon.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot089.jpg

The Verdict: not worth going against "real" llds. but a char good enough to show off to the noobies. :thumbsup:

I'd have to agree. With a bowzon you really should have a gothic bow with at least 1xx damage and ias. I just figured that double bow was close enuf and i could hit a 9 framer. Coupled with the low stat reqs I am sittin pretty.

Applekid

28-02-2008, 04:43

My necromancer lost to a specific (and unusually talented) charger about half the time... :'[
And it lost to the desyncing hammerdin (again, not just any hammerdin) every time ;_;
Although I'm sure the hdin does use edits, he doesn't use them all of the time. I was pleasantly close to beating him one time, and ran outta mana =/

The guy behind the charger has a muuuuuuuuch faster computer than I, and was hence able to charge and charge and charge and charge... before I could even recast bone armor. It was so fast, in fact, that the animation of bone armor breaking couldn't catch up or even show before it was broken and I was dead =/
But tactfully he can be beaten.

I'm ready to start work on my new BowzoN, her name is Mondo_Mole, and props to anybody who knows that reference :]] I also am creating my very first frenzy barb, dual wielding dimensional blades >:) I'm also remaking my charge/zeal, he's going to be 27, and have about 200 more life since I overbuilt.

We'll see how those builds turn out.

Again I'm in US West so if anybody there wants to duel, I'm open and willing.

Btw, Goomba, what is your realm?

Turtleism

28-02-2008, 12:00

SOLEboy

28-02-2008, 12:36

were they suited up with a bunch of rares or would we be able to build one in no time using uniques? :)

im very interested!!

fledgeling

28-02-2008, 22:48

basically shard, wall of eyeless, magefists -> 50+20+20 = 90fcr

then 2 fcr rings (preferably with str/dex or MANA - especially for lld) or a +1/10fcr amulet (you need 20 fcr from jewllery)

armor can be twitch, for block and str/dex

boots ->some rares with cr/lr/fhr perhaps (hotspurrs + that fr amulet vs fire sorcs)
belt ->str/life

you could experiment with socketed shields vs cold sorcs/fohers

please note that you will need a lot of mana

Applekid

29-02-2008, 00:53

i have an idea, it might be a little crazy but just bear with me. lvl29...lld...sorcs!

they just arnt seen anymore, and to put it plainly they can do extreamly well. i had a lld fballer last ladder and she was one of my favs, tele here, fball there, it was so much fun unlike the very predictable and somewhat boring lld bone necro. besides it was probably the best lld pk'r i ever had, chargers just got absolutely shat on from my 110fcr fballs, and the beauty is u can basicly play the necro game when it comes to gear, sheild and twich for barbs and chargers, staffs for necros and zons, and whatever takes ur fancy with sorcs.

but this is just a suggestion, and considering the diversity of llds getting around atm, i say why the hell not?

A friend and I were discussing this, and I came to the conclusion that I would sit on the idea until I came across a +1 +3 (to a publicly unspecified skill... >:]) 20fcr staff. Until that day... my gg lld sorc will not exist.

But I always have wanted to create a fb sorc, I've just never had the motivation to kick it into high gear and actually make one. Plus Turtleism, a sorc would need to have an incredible fireball damage to compete with a stacked fr nec. A nec's 451 spear (and no BONE resistance) can be quite difficult to keep up with.

I understand the point about enjoyablility and unpredictability. Something about 110fcr and teleport coupled with lots of fire just screams for a good time. Altho, I haven't seen a lld fb sorc for about 2 years...........

squiggle

29-02-2008, 10:04

I've been thinking of creating a 29/30 sorc for awhile. Mainly to pk normal + nm cs runs.

Thinking 70 fcr bp, Shard + mages. 2 Sojs, 3dia sheild, twitch, 3os mask with saphires, Rare +sorc ammy, Rare boots w/ fhr dex res.

But..:donno:

Making a frenzy barb atm,

Turtleism

29-02-2008, 10:34

a sorc would need to have an incredible fireball damage to compete with a stacked fr nec. A nec's 451 spear (and no BONE resistance) can be quite difficult to keep up with.

this is where i used to get tricky, sure a necro could stack fr till all buggery which is fine, i dont have a problem with this... ofcourse i would always take them to hell diff to duel. this is where the best llds compete, where all ur skills and gear are put to the test, u have to be able to have high resists whilst not losing everything else.

And there is serious advantages and dissadvantges to be had for every class when u step up to hell diff, necros will gain uber walls and prisions but lose their stack/fcr/life, a hammerdin will be put under the pump with no real benifits and all the dissadvantages, a zon (oh yes lld zons, they do exist dont they?) will be able to advantage of the lowerd res's of their enemys but is screwd otherwise (not much really changes for a zon there haha), and a sorc will be able to have a free run with everyone losing res or life or fcr (or heaven forbid all of them) ofcourse they are placed with the dissadvantage of trying to break down a necros uber wall.

btw a hell rushed fball sorc with 110fcr can crank up around 600dmg from memory, which is pretty good for a lvl29 sorc i figure ;)

fledgeling

29-02-2008, 23:16

I leveled up my fb sorc to 30, for the 30% fire damage bonus of the mastery (and it even increases if one would use a +1amu, tarn, sojs..)

Another option is a 20fcr wand (20fcr, 20energy, 50+mana perhaps with res?), 3x 10fcr from jevellery and magefists for 70fcr and more energy, but shar is quite a good weapon

Applekid

29-02-2008, 23:31

Oh boy do I love Turtleisms replies...I fought 2 lld sorcs last night, probably built very shortly after reading the forum :D

I need to finish my bowzon, but after that I'll put the frenzy barb on hold and come up with an honest-to-God attempt at a lld sorc. I'll find the staff later and possibly rebuild, but for the time being I'll go for shard. I have a tenative outline for how I want the skills and I think if everything goes according to plan I should be owning by mid-march :D haha.

Another build I've been throwing around (no pun intended) is a low level throw zon. O_o I have one lvl 18 (destined for 19!!) throwzon called Turtle_Tribute, no surprise there. I also have been trying out a poison dagger necro which actually isn't doing too bad.

fledgeling

01-03-2008, 04:53

When I used to LLD (or rather attack random people in normal-mode games) I've been experimenting with a "fireball sorc" alternative - a level 16 holy fire ranger. This character is not a top notch dueller, but is a nice alternative to all these "LLDs" who are level 29..

I wonder if this guy could kill a fireball sorc : )

My character uses a few basic items:

A ravenclaw - for the explosive damage, becase as I understand, the fire explosion from the bow can put the opponents into recovery animation and ravenclaw arrows seem to always hit (perhaps due to massive AR my character has? I have never tried him vs a high defense char)
Roguebow could be an alternative due to higher IAS - but Ive never made the IAS calculations for any of these two bows
"Standard bows" seem to have too low damage to be worth using, but perhaps a bow with a saphire could be useful

A twitch - 20IAS and 10str/10dex - what else do you need?
Perhaps angelic armor would be an option, because it adds +1 skill with the amulet/rings

Death's belt/gloves for CBF mod and 30ias
with sigon gloves and helmet as an alternative. Sigon gloves, however, require 60strenght (one could also get the belt for some defense, but it's not that high)

Treads of Cthon - I still havent found any 30faster run walk boots with level 16 required. Im not sure if this mod can spawn on such a low level. If yes, 30frw/10fhr/res boots would be the best

Angelic amulet+2rings - I think the AR is needed in order to hit, ravenclaw is still a mysterious weapon for me and I didnt make enough tests
Etlich amulet with+1skill and long freeze duration + 2minumum damage rings

Skill distribution is pretty easy: as much holy fire and its synergy as possible, with 1 point into charge. My unfinished character (just normal quests and some nightmare) did an unimpressive 165 fire damage and could get to around wuith a full rush 200 according to my calculations.

165 listed damage is around 30 damage done to an opponent with 0 res and around 7 damage to an opponent with 75% res. And like few points vs someone with hotspurrs and nokozan relic.
Consequently, this character should not work. But he workes to some degree - especially versus melee chars and the pubs.
Some players do not stack fire resists (aka pubs) and some simply cant.
Many characters benefit from angelics amulet/rings and nokozan is essential for them. Well.. they can use the armor/rings for 50fr and then wear the nokozan, but some use a twitch.

In addition, hotspurrs are SLOW boots with no frw.

Now you probably get this. This guy does not make much damage, but is constantly running away, utilizing charge or drinking white potions (which should be prohibited IMO). Of course this might lead to "stupid battles" aka a slow barb chasing a fast palladin (or rather running to town), but if there would be some sort of a real fight this guy can win vs the melee characters eventually

squiggle

01-03-2008, 05:15

But any paladin should be able to ko you easily, You have no sheild to block, They have charge.

Any ranged attacker should be able to also, :donno:

I'm making a 29/30 sorc in a week. Just need to decide on the build..

2 SoJs, Shard, Mages, Random helm, Sorc ammy, Random belt, Twitch probbly, 3pdia sheild, Random boots with dex fhr res

Fb, Orb, Blizz, Nova, or :donno:

That or make a great 30 foher..kek

WarlockCC

01-03-2008, 17:51

You have bonespear at level 18, why not make your nec level 18 ? you can have nice fcr +40 mana rings at that level, lennymo to get some more mana regen.

I made a level 18 hammerdin which works rather well against chargers. he uses a +3 blessed hammer +3 conc scepter. tarn, eye of the etlich, twitch, steelclash, bloodfist,lenny,10frw+res boots and some fcr+mana+res rings. The +skills really makes the difference, I do have a 3D shield on switch just in case. iirc it's of the large shield type to get at least a descent block.

When I find a descent 20fcr, +3 spear or a 10fcr, +3 spear wand, I will make a level 18 nec.
One of the chalenges of LLD is to make a char as low as possible imho. level 29 or higher chars will just get you in fights with WW barbs or Orb sorcs.

It's like a level 12 regenerate smiter I have, somebody made a level 19 version of that char and suprisingly he can win 10 out of 10 times. One can allways just get one or a few levels higher to have more damage then other chars, but doesn't that void the idea of *low* level dueling ? To me, duelers in the over 18 range have access to far more skilltypes and far more items, so are in a different league.

Friend of mine made a level 12 cold shield/ice blast sorc which works really good vs chargers. I have no idea what he uses though, but it works. :)

In reply to Fledgelings ravenclaw questions about ar, you do not need ar to hit with a ravenclaw. When the arrow animation touches a target animation the explosion will be triggered.
Supposing you have cleglaws gloves on, the slow and/or knockback will only be triggered with you really hit a target, in that case you do need ar. When you really hit a target, the physical damage of the arrow will also apply, that will not apply when your explosion goes off and you don't hit.
You could have both offcourse, since the explosion will go off anyway and after that you get the "did-I-hit-him" calculation.

Rare/Magic boots with 30frw will have at least level 29 req on Ladder(some old ones floating around on non ladder might have lower reqs, not sure about that, Orphan or RTB will probably know this).

SOLEboy

01-03-2008, 21:51

how does a level 12 regenerate smiter build look like?

godzownage

02-03-2008, 02:39

alright so i hear a lot about these guys and i dont know much about them
anyone if u wanna post a build for them there will be much apretiation and i know alot of other people that are curious too
thanks for the help

WarlockCC

02-03-2008, 04:27

how does a level 12 regenerate smiter build look like?
Mine uses some old items on non ladder(prelod SoJs and a prelod Eye), but to make one on the Ladder shouldn't be very hard and might even work better then what I use.

I'd make it full sigons, Gnasher, angelic rings and either Angelic amu for the nice life bonus or civerbs amu for the extra regenerate(including the mana regen).
Skillwise it depends on if your char is hellrushed.
You will want level 1 smite, level 1 charge(in case you need to give chase)
level 1 cleansing, your main aura.
level 9 prayer.
1 point in each of the res aura's

str req for your heaviest item(sigon shield) is 75.
Sigon gloves gives 10 str.
Gnasher gives 8 str.
So statwise you will have :
57 str and the rest in vit.

An alternative build would be to forsake the res aura's and have more points in prayer.

If your char is also rushed trough higher difficulties, you should put more points into prayer(you can get up to level 12 prayer, since prayer is a level 0 skill). Some people just keep running around, to get those I took a point into holy fire, also useful as a finishing touch, to take that hitpoint which remains when a target has been bled by your open wounds mod.

Any +skill and +prayer you get will work as a synergy to cleansing's healing. It's the exception to the "+skills do not work as a synergy" rule. So that +skill from sigons shield is increasing your healing per 2 seconds.

Gnasher gives you crushing blow and bleeding, allowing you to take down a target of any amount of life and causing them to lose life even when you are not hitting them.(inbetween smites or when they are running for their lives)
Full sigons has nice bonuses amoung which there is a damage to attacker.

Not a lot of skill involved in this build, hover the target with your mouse cursor, press and hold mouse button.
If the attacker does a lot of a type of elemental damage, flip on that elemen's aura and when you think you have a window, turn on your cleansing to get some life back.

Also handy to carry around a Crushflange in case you are on the receiving end of a lot of fire damage but still want to keep your cleansing aura. Also remember to bring your nokozan relic amulet.
Bring a Felloak club to defend yourself against lightning attacks.

Mind you, a 3 socket shield filled with 3 topaz's would probably be better to fight a lightning foe and a 3 sock, ruby socketed shield would be better to fight fire elementalists. Same goes for cold with a saphires shield. Then you can keep your aura and your Gnasher.

Your biggest enemy will be lack of mana, so hope that you get some mana trough the dtm of Angelic amu or the regenerate of civerbs amu.

godzownage

02-03-2008, 05:31

anyone got any cool builds they wuld like to share?
thanks

TCats

03-03-2008, 03:10

I'm thinking of making a lld zon.

Turtleism

03-03-2008, 11:31

It can also take down just about anything that a hybrid can while also taking down hybrids 99% of the time. The problem is, you'll probably get bored of playing it quickly because there's not much of a challenge

Now that is a build i know very well, mainly because i used to duel him every second lld game haha, and for the record i did beat him 2 out of 3 on most days, but then there where the days where he would wipe the floor with my lvl12 hybrid (whom was packing a very nice wh, 52dmg, 1-2cold dmg, 193ar and not socketed).

oh and i must say, ur claim on the effectiveness on this build is very unfounded, it is extreamly easy to claim a build wins 99% of the time when ur only vsing nubs. and i know for a fact that u need a bit of brains and skill to actualy get this build to work to the lvl that ifi had it, otherwise ur just making him just look like a unskillfull opertunist.

SOLEboy

03-03-2008, 17:13

anyone have an idea of how i would be able to use this correctly? i think its screaming to be made for an lld char.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/phorumfotos/D2c/Screenshot112.jpg

WarlockCC

03-03-2008, 19:01

That is indeed a very nice shield with a very nice levelreq. Block is still a tad low, but on a pala it will be 60.
You could consider a level 9 smiter. Gnasher, deaths gloves and sash(9fpa), those blue barb boots or hsarus boots. Unless you happen to gamble some level 9 rings, you're probably better off with nagels. I was making my level 9 doubleswinger yesterday and found that I have no proper level 9 rings and amulets, so I went for nagels and civerbs amu.
After reading TCat's great idea of damage reduction, I would suggest greyform with Isenharts helm. The most you will probably get from your shield's DTM is that it looks cool. You could socket it with a chipped skull for some damage returned. :)

Applekid

04-03-2008, 04:41

I'm not gonna lie, I am a little offended by TCat's post. ifi was an incredible and talented dueler, and a remarkable person as well. The ifi build is by no means a secret or covet, but I do believe he took it a little bit overboard, since ifi and q is highly respected in my book, and also considered to myself and others as a mentor. My humble roots in dueling fall on q and ifi, and I would like to assert that he deserves respect and gratitude for his contributions to the d2 world.

Also, with regard to Seth's comment, I couldn't agree more.

fledgeling

04-03-2008, 21:17

Ive built a healer smiter level 12 a lont time ago and I dont believe that he can defeat any decent charger. I think Warlock's charger killed my healer like 5 times, when we were doing some tests, like 1,5 year ago.

Speaking of smiters, do you know any characters UNDER level 12 that can can easily kill a level 11 defense smiter? (either in full sigon+gnasher, or with angelics + gnasher) I was thinking of a bash barb - but they dont have angelics (level 12 req) or maybe some fire-based palladin..?

TCats

05-03-2008, 02:26

@applekid: I don't see how it's offensive. If he was willing to tell me what he was using, it obviously wasn't a secret.

@Turtleism: I don't care if you beat him 2/3 or even 4/3 times, I have never lost to a hybrid, and that includes one that was made by a poster on this forum who is highly respected. He's not what you would call a noob.

@fledgeling: You may have built a healer smiter, but THIS is not a healer smiter. Did you smiter have a wh and zeal/charge/might to punish 2 handed weapons? Did your smiter use DR or DTA or use 30/20 bone? If you used a spiked shield or wasted str so you could use a sigon's, that build is entirely different. THIS beats chargers who are decent or better, and that's because it's not truly a smiter.

Also, ANYTHING wearing full sigons will beat a level 11 defense smiter. Crushing blow and open wounds will bring them down to 1 life, but full sigons gives 7 points of damage reduction. The ABSOLUTE most that a level 11 smiter can do in actual damage is 21-39, and that's with 11 points on might/smite, AND a spiked shield. Divide 21-39 by 6 because of the pvp nerf, and you'll see that the smiter can only do 3.5-6.5 damage. A defense smiter does even LESS because it doesn't use might and doesn't use a spiked shield, so while a person wearing full sigons might get scared and run away before the duel is over, he will never die no matter how many times he is smited. If he is wearing nagels and a nokozan, he will likely NEVER be killed by the defense smiter (it removes any chance that holy fire or the fire damage bonus from sigons will hurt him).

WarlockCC

05-03-2008, 03:11

Tcats > would cathans amu's attacker takes lightning damage of 5 add to the B'stard mode of Ify's build ?
Maybe it's just a personal thing, I just like to see attackers get shocked, even if it's so little damage. Does it even work PvP ? Since I've only used cathans amu PvM. And if it works, does it do the 5/6th of a point of life in damage ? :)

Fledgeling > my level 12 charger does 895-1449 damage, most level 12 chargers do not do that kind of damage. Certainly not on the ladder. I wager your healer can hold his own quite well against a lot of people. Cleansing works.

Last weekend, like TCats predicted, a guy was convienced my healer was potting, so I let him and his level 15 char keep attacking my healer until he was convienced I could not be carrying *that* many potions. :)

I might make another healer/smiter to see how much fun a lot of damage reduced is. I wager when combined with the healing such a char can take quite a pounding. Also, I hope I can test my level 9 doubleswinger sometime soon.

TCats

05-03-2008, 03:19

@Warlock: Afaik, as long as the foe has no MDR, any amount of elemental damage will do 1 damage no matter how much resist the person has. If you do 1-2 lightning damage and the foe has 75% lightning resist, he should still take 1 damage. Knock yourself out =)

Applekid

07-03-2008, 21:13

Anybody have thoughts on a melee zon?

squiggle

08-03-2008, 01:51

Depends, What level?

Jabbers are fun + do decent.

I had a 19 jabber last season using a 17x pike, and making a level 9 once I find a 1xx level 9 pike on sc.

WarlockCC

08-03-2008, 19:33

Anybody have thoughts on a melee zon?
Yeah, I think Fledgeling was running around with the idea for a Low level charged strike zon, but I don't think he got around to working on that.
I'll check the skillcalc later to see if I can come up with anything.

Applekid

14-03-2008, 01:42

Good first builds:
Smiter, Charger, Zealer.

Smiter: lvl 18
Equipment-
Armor: twitch
Gloves: deaths/irathas
Belt: deaths/irathas
Helm: life mask(or crown)/irathas/duskkeep
Rings: Angelics
Ammy: Angelics/irathas(for res)
Boots: Treads of Cthon/Hsarus
Shield: Swordback
Weapon: Blood Crescent Scimitar/Gnasher hand axe

Skills-
~Blend of smite/might
~1 Holy Freeze (and prereqs)

Stats-
:: 45 base str.
:: Rest vit.

Charger: lvl 15
Equipment-
Armor: Angelics
Gloves: Sigons
Belt: Sigons
Helm: Sigons
Rings: Angelics
Ammy: Angelics
Boots: Sigons
Shield: 10/30/20 mdr, dr, d2m, res Bone Shield/Sigons/Bverrits Keep (you won't usually use it...)
Weapon: 10X Pike/5X WH

Skills-
max might
rest charge

Stats-
Enough str/dex for pike & sig gloves
Rest vit

Zealer, lvl 19
Equipment-
Armor: Twitch
Gloves: Deaths
Belt: Deaths
Helm: Life mask
Rings: Angelics
Ammy: Angelics
Boots: Whatever's clever.
Shield: Swordback
Weapon: Best WH you can find, or else any array of the upperscale weapons that become available at lvl 19. Make sure it hits hard and it hits fast. The rest doesn't matter.

Skills:
-max might
-4 zeal
-2 charge
-rest sacrifice

Stats:
~Enuf for weapon and swordback (including bonus from twitch)
~Rest vit.

CoyoteKid

17-03-2008, 04:13

I am sorry to say this, but I think Prayer is the dumbest waste of skill points I have every seen for a vlld (level 12).

I followed your build on my hell rushed pally and think I just screwed him up with all those wasted points in Prayer.

My Zeal/Charge kicks butt, and if I had the prayer points, I could of synergized zeal and it would of been even stronger.

Jeese I could kick myself for following this or am I doing something wrong?
Prayer at level 7 just doesnt help me fast enough to matter in duels!!

I don't know if he'd want me to share this, but here's the build that I copied from the guy who made ifi. At its core, this level 12 paladin build is actually very budget friendly. The ifi guy used some items that I thought were unnecessary and rather costly, but I'll list them for completion sake.

I have played on both East and West, and I never lost a match anyone under 18 (6 levels higher). I know that a good level 18 hammerdin would beat me, and even GG level 15 weapons could theoretically allow a hybrid pally to beat me-- along with every other level 12. Even against these guys, I never died, even though they often try to pk me despite my refusal to fight them. There are other ideas that I have thought of to specifically counter this build, and I did manage to beat ifi a few times with them... won't be sharing them though.

None of that matters anyway because this build is meant to fight level 12 hybrids and the ability to beat anyone else is a happy coincidence.

BARE MINIMUM
Gnasher
It's no secret that the gnasher is good. Most average people will lose to you even if all you're wearing is a gnasher and a shield with good blocking. It's such a broken weapon.

Angelic set (armor, rings, ammy)
+115 life, +1 to all skills, damage reduced by 3, replenish life +12, 218 defense, +50 mana, +50% fire resist, +288 AR, 20% damage to mana. You could wear this set and punch most noobs to death.

30/20 Bone shield
Reroll Drognan until you find one, or gamble for a gg rare. DTM, FHR, and damage reduction are great if you can get them. I like the yellow color better than the blue one, so I try to get +light radius. Just my preference though. Here's the best shield I've managed to get a hold of http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/127/runewnl7.png

Death's set (belt, gloves)
+15 all resists, cannot be frozen, 30% ias, and immunity to poison? I'll take two.

RECOMMENDED(a.k.a. what I use)
War hammer: 50 damage (shoppable (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brutalweb6.png) in act 4 normal)
A 50 damage hammer can beat most noobs into submission, and that's great because it's possible to shop one that can do 53 (49% ed + 10 max). Gambling or mfing a 55+ hammer will make your hair fall out, but the benefits are undeniable. Here's what I use: http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6909/ghoulbck9.png

Mask (3 sockets: amethysts)
3 socket masks are hard to find if you're looking specifically for them. I recommend you trade for one if you don't already have one. 3 amethysts will be necessary for you to lift your hammer. If you manage to get a -20% requirement hammer, a 2 socket helm of any kind will be enough (purple bones ftw).

Mask (3 sockets: rubies)
Life, it helps you live.

Large shield (3 sockets: skulls)
Sometimes, I stand still and let people kill themselves. This is the funnest item of the bunch, and it looks badass to boot.

Large shield (3 sockets: diamonds)
Resistance is futile.

Hsaru's boots
Is there no other way to get 20% frw at level 12? No. But wear them with angelics and you get 75% fire resist.

STRICTLY FOR FUN
Isenhart's helm
Damage reduction is a beast at low levels. Plus, people will call you a nub for wearing isenharts, and that's always good for a laugh.

Cathan's rings
Damage reduction is a beast at low levels.

*With Cathan's (-4), Isenhart's (-2), and Angelic (-3), all physical attacks are reduced by 9. This reduction is factored in AFTER the pvp nerf, so anyone who does less than 60 damage will do zero damage to you. An above average zealer who normally does 180 (30 pvp) will see his damage cut by almost a third.

ESSENTIALLY NON-ESSENTIAL
Greyform
20% fr/cr and MAGIC damage -3

Nagels (any grade)
AR and magic damage -3

Rare/Magical Ammy: 15+ LR and/or CR, magic damage reduced by 1
With this you should have LR or CR maxed. CS zons suck at level 18 and 19, so 50ish LR is fine, especially if you're wearing the other MDR gear. If you feel insecure, by all means, find a 15% LR ammy, too. If you're wearing all the magic damage reduction gear, you should have -10. That and resists lets you sit and take elemental attacks all day long.

Bloodfist
Life sucks.

Hotspur
Don't be a baby.

___________________________________
The hardest thing to get among the essential and recommended items are the gnasher and the three socket masks. Most of that crap is shoppable (3 socket shields, war hammer, and 30/20 shield), and everything else is a lld staple. You'll need a lot of gems, too, but if you can't get them, you shouldn't be dueling.

If you think this build is weird, you're right. Those items shouldn't work, but they do if you build it right. I think ifi was a really sadistic bastard for using DR and MDR when he could have just stuck to angelics and put people out of their misery. What's the point of standing there and taking no damage while using the skull shield to kill people? Oh, and that dirty cheater was using socketed set items. I respect the guy, but he wasn't legit.

Of course items are only half of the story. Stats and skills are just as important, and here's what you do.

Stats:
10 on strength
45-60 on vit (depending on your rush)

Skills:
1 holy fire
1 cleansing
1 sacrifice
1 smite
1 zeal
1 charge

9-10 prayer
1-7 might (depends on rush, 1 point minimum)

With a norm rush, you're ready to fight. The other 8 points are nice and all, but it's a waste of time imho.

That's all you really need to know. I'll throw in some strategy discussion, but that's only for the people who are lld purists.

Before I get into that though, I want to mention that using cleansing against most people is not a good idea. IT ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO POT. They'll see you healing, accuse you of potting, and then use that to justify their own potting. It's not necessary anyway, as I fight 90% of the time without any aura at all. Seriously, be cool and leave cleansing for the tough fights.

COMMON MATCHUPS (levels 18 and under assumed)

Smiters
Wear your skull shield. They will always hit and that's free damage for you. Life is nice and everything, but they're going to be using open wounds and crushing blow, so forget the angelic rings/ammy. Also, don't bother with the ruby mask. Instead, load up on damage reduction (isenhart's, cathan's, and some form of magic damage reduction just in case). Smite back with your gnasher and use cleansing to heal. Basically, crushing blow and open wounds can't take you down past 1 life, and if you have more damage reduction than they have damage, they'll never be able to take you down past 1. Oh, and for those people who got holy fire, a nagel or even a 1 mdr ammy will prevent the fire damage from burning you.

Chargers (mauls/pikes)
Put on your 3 amethyst mask and equip your war hammer/bone shield. Turn on might. Charge lock them as they try to break through your shield. Even if they hit, it won't be an ohko. If you don't screw up, you should win 100% of the time. Walking instead of running will lower the chance that they'll pick you off as you're approaching.

Charger (shield)
Use gnasher and 30/20. Angelics for AR. Make sure you use walk instead of run. The aura of choice here is cleansing because if they try to hit and run, it just gives you free time to heal. Charge to chase them and smite when you can for some free open wounds/crushing blows. It can take a while, but in the end it's always the same. I'm at 100% and they're fleeing to town to lick their open wounds.

Zealots
You can use the DR stuff if you're a jerk. Or, you can use standard smiting gear and finish them off.

Hybrids
The most fun fights that you're likely to have are against those level 12 sigon's shield pallies that tend to dominate most lld games. Wear your 3 amethyst mask if you think they have a 2 handed weapon to switch to. When they switch, you'll want to be able to put on your war hammer and savor the free hits. At the start of the fight use clegs and smite them once. After they're slowed, switch to death's and smite away. Use cleansing to discourage them from trying to use the hit and run tactic. If they do, chase them with charge and smite like you would a shield charger. When they're at low life, you can switch to your own hammer and have a zeal fight. Or, let them bleed and splash holy fire to finish. Don't be discouraged if you fall behind at first, your crushing blows and open wounds take time to work, and you should have plenty of time given your gobs of life and replenish.

Non-pallies
Play them like you would using a standard hybrid with charge/zeal and you'll be fine. The only ones you might need to smite are javzons and summoner necros. If you lose to them at first, try using your items differently. If you got all the items listed here, you will absolutely have no problems going 1v1 with any 18- builds.

In sum, while this build isn't as overwhelmingly powerful as hybrids or as durable as pure tanks, it strikes a good balance and is capable of beating both with a high rate of certainty. It can also take down just about anything that a hybrid can while also taking down hybrids 99% of the time. The problem is, you'll probably get bored of playing it quickly because there's not much of a challenge.

thekinglotr

17-03-2008, 05:27

CoyoteKid who are you using this build to duel? If you are trying to duel people much much higher than you of course you will have very little luck. I have this same build but have not hell rushed him and have found the build to be amazingly effective. I even took down a 47 zon today with him. (lol she had no fhr and I pinned her on a wall, really got lucky lol)

Turtleism

17-03-2008, 11:34

recantly i slapped together a relatively ruff lvl29 lld fireball sorc.

the basic details of the old girl are: fball dmg 703-804 with 15.5 mana cost, 420 life with half assed gear, 110fcr with deadly effect, 75 all res (works very well vs zons and other sorcs's), had a few armors on her with a twitch on standby for the often barb (whom didnt get how their 75fr wasnt working).

she required a full hell rush as my craving for higher dmg drove me to do so, with a bit of tele skill she killed many with ease and was brilliant for a bit of pk. ofcourse vsing necros was something of a trick but thoes whom sacrificed fhr and fcr for res where severly punished.

whilst there is still much fine tuning to be done i belive that this sorc has been a terrific success as far as the outside the square llds go ;)

fledgeling

17-03-2008, 22:52

@fledgeling: You may have built a healer smiter, but THIS is not a healer smiter. Did you smiter have a wh and zeal/charge/might to punish 2 handed weapons?

nop

Did your smiter use DR or DTA or use 30/20 bone?

nope, I didnt put any DR (damage reduced)
because a good charger does like 600 minimum damage (2h) or 200 (1h) and can kill with just few (2) hits

what is DTA? damage to attacker? I think my char has some, but not much, I just killed the opponents the slower way, or they killed me

I actually used a 30/20 bone and my char has like 10str from cathan ring and helmet I think

If you used a spiked shield or wasted str so you could use a sigon's, that build is entirely different. THIS beats chargers who are decent or better, and that's because it's not truly a smiter.

I dont think you can heal fast enough as they hit you, unless you charge lock them

Also, ANYTHING wearing full sigons will beat a level 11 defense smiter.

are you sure? can everything hit them?

Crushing blow and open wounds will bring them down to 1 life, but full sigons gives 7 points of damage reduction. The ABSOLUTE most that a level 11 smiter can do in actual damage is 21-39, and that's with 11 points on might/smite, AND a spiked shield. Divide 21-39 by 6 because of the pvp nerf, and you'll see that the smiter can only do 3.5-6.5 damage. A defense smiter does even LESS because it doesn't use might and doesn't use a spiked shield, so while a person wearing full sigons might get scared and run away before the duel is over, he will never die no matter how many times he is smited.

first you write that sigon smiter will get brought to 1 life and then you write that they will never die to damage reduction from sigon set

in addition, did you notice that actually the defense smiter can use crushing blow too?

according to what you wrote I understood that you only considered level 11 smite vs level 11 smite, where a true smiter will kill a defense smiter..

If he is wearing nagels and a nokozan, he will likely NEVER be killed by the defense smiter (it removes any chance that holy fire or the fire damage bonus from sigons will hurt him).

the fire is not even transferred via smite
what about crushing blow and open wounds? cant my smiter use it too?
actually all my smiters were based on gnashers, because without them getting enough damage would be very problematic (perhaps some WH and that 8% damage to self attack)

***

has anyone expermineted with the idea of an avenger? as far as I remember, they could get around 500 damage (or was it 400?) with a decent knout and pretty decent resists. The problem would be slow attacks of course

CoyoteKid

18-03-2008, 01:33

Applekid

18-03-2008, 02:23

Thx for the response.

I am dueling my son's pally (zeal/charge/might) who is lvl 12 also and hell rushed. Really only difference between him and me is he is using full Deaths set.

I just think I would of givin him a much better match if I didnt use prayer and instead placed points in zeal synergy (sacrifice i think) for more damage.

As it is now, prayer is way way too slow to help me when my sons pally is over me.

Um... I believe that the point is not to use prayer, but to use cleansing, as the points from prayer carry over to cleansing. I think the problem lies not in the build, but in the player. Your strategy may need to be refined to go against an experienced charge/zeal. Here are some tips...

-walk, don't run. walking preserves your block rate, which is ESSENTIAL to warding off the STUPID high damage of a charge/zeal. you need your block rate to be consistently high, and this is the only way to do that.

-start the duel with clegs in order to slow the attacks and play head games. chances are an impatient dueler will become angry and probably discouraged. once they're slowed, change to deaths set and smite smite smite.

-a 30/20 bone shield with damage to mana can be crucial to this duel.

-damage reduction is your friend. just because he does "600 damage" or whatever, don't get discouraged and frustrated and disbelieve in what we're telling you. what it comes down to is a pvp penalty: attacks dont do the same damage displayed in the character screen, for if they did, we'd all be screwed. there are penalties on nearly everything. Actual damage is probably in the 30's, not the 600s, making damage reduction VERY helpful, because trust me, it adds up.

-damage to attacker is another big one. you can return a sizeable chunk of damage to the attacker for every hit they lay on you. and guess what, there's no pvp penalty on dmg to attacker. it is what it is, son.

Hopefully with these tips, you can fare much better against your son's, and other players, charge/zeals and won't get as fed up with a gg build. Good luck.

WarlockCC

18-03-2008, 02:34

If he's using a warhammer (range 1) to zeal, you could look into smiting using a flail(range 3). This will keep him at bay. With luck, too far for him to even hit you. :)

Applekid

18-03-2008, 02:49

If he's using a warhammer (range 1) to zeal, you could look into smiting using a flail(range 3). This will keep him at bay. With luck, too far for him to even hit you. :)

You can equip a flail at level 12? I think he'd be better off with gnasher, as open wounds deals damage independent of health, defense, etc. and will lead to a satisfying, slow death by bleeding. You can essentially walk around and watch them charge you to no avail as you cure up with cleansing. Your block rate and damage reduction will do all the talking for you. Damage to attacker will also put in a good word... >:)

WarlockCC

18-03-2008, 12:30

You can equip a flail at level 12? I think he'd be better off with gnasher, as open wounds deals damage independent of health, defense, etc. and will lead to a satisfying, slow death by bleeding. You can essentially walk around and watch them charge you to no avail as you cure up with cleansing. Your block rate and damage reduction will do all the talking for you. Damage to attacker will also put in a good word... >:)
If you wanted you could equip a flail at level 1, since there are flails without any requirements at all. In fact, my new level 9 doubleswinger barb uses one of those flails. But normal flails do not have a levelrequirement either. Only 41 str and 35 dex required.

I was writing about being zealed, you're writing about being charged. Those are completely different situations which have different "best choices" :)

Applekid

19-03-2008, 00:27

If you wanted you could equip a flail at level 1, since there are flails without any requirements at all. In fact, my new level 9 doubleswinger barb uses one of those flails. But normal flails do not have a levelrequirement either. Only 41 str and 35 dex required.

I was writing about being zealed, you're writing about being charged. Those are completely different situations which have different "best choices" :)

Oh... I guess I never noticed, since I never had the inkling to use a flail :D
Well... since they're a hybrid, I'm just saying they'll prolly charge at you then try to zeal in close range. You can tank the charge and avoid the zeal, and it gets verrrry frustrating to be behind the charge/zeal. I haaaaaaated dueling ifi because he'd never take damage. :D

Applekid

19-03-2008, 22:43

Hmm. . . since we're on the topic of q, does anybody but me remember the llsukiall character? I think I'm going to make one... it was a gg dueler! I also want to try out my poison dagger necro. He's level 22, needs to be level 26. I'll probably finish leveling a lot of characters this weekend. I have a 15 bowzon that needs to become 29, a 22 nec that needs to be 26, an 18 zon who needs to be 19 (how lazy can I be...), and a Frenzy barb who is level 1 lolol. I also just created the humble beginnings of a 12 pala. I'll probably do all of these things this weekend and clear my task list for good. :D

Lizardking

19-03-2008, 23:15

what excactly is an hybrid :shame:

Applekid

20-03-2008, 02:20

what excactly is an hybrid :shame:

A hybrid would describe a lvl 12 paladin who utilizes the skills Charge and Zeal.

thekinglotr

23-03-2008, 03:33

Just curious, where exactly is the cutoff considered to be for LLD, is it 29 or is it 30? Or am I altogether wrong and is it something else?

WarlockCC

23-03-2008, 04:51

Just curious, where exactly is the cutoff considered to be for LLD, is it 29 or is it 30? Or am I altogether wrong and is it something else?
Everybody has their own views on that.
Personally, I consider level 9-18 LLD, 19-29 Mid level and anything over that normal or high level dueling.
I base my reasoning on the items, item mods and skills you have available at those levels. In classic, at level 30, you will be able to use all set items, all unique items and all skills. On top of that you also have a lot of the most interesting item mods available to you.

Applekid

24-03-2008, 18:21

Just curious, where exactly is the cutoff considered to be for LLD, is it 29 or is it 30? Or am I altogether wrong and is it something else?

There are different tiers of lld, and they are as follows:
a) 9-12
b) 12-18
c) 18-24
d) 24-29

Each has different abilities, items, skills, etc. and each has its own niche in the LLD community. For the most part, <18 is the actual player-matchup portion of lld, and above that is just kicking the collective butt of those higher level players who want to ruin your games :D

WarlockCC

25-03-2008, 12:54

There are different tiers of lld, and they are as follows:
a) 9-12
b) 12-18
c) 18-24
d) 24-29

Each has different abilities, items, skills, etc. and each has its own niche in the LLD community. For the most part, <18 is the actual player-matchup portion of lld, and above that is just kicking the collective butt of those higher level players who want to ruin your games :D
These tiers should be standardized, I prefer them exactly like you list them, rather then the simplified version I posted above.
Most of the time, vs matches within those tiers are good matchups.
We are under the unfortunate influence of LoD where I think anything below 30 is considered LLD.

Applekid

26-03-2008, 23:45

My poison dagger nec is lvl 26 FINALLY and he is kickin lld tush!!!
Bowzon made it to level 27 and. . . sux. lol.
I've created a 12 regen but he isn't as good as I'd like. I'm workin on it. . .
I'm in the process of making a lvl 20 sorc.

I think the poison dagger nec worked out much better than I actually expected. All I wanted was a novelty build who could kill n00bs but this build is actually defeating experienced chargers, zealers, sorcs, zons, etc. I think I'll refine the build a tad and then outline it on this thread.

Applekid

28-03-2008, 17:38

Right now I'm really into the 18-24 bracket of lld, and also did some research and experimentation with interesting, though rather disappointing results. But interesting nonetheless. . . .

The experiments were based around two things: attacker takes damage of... and damage reduction.
I was under the impression that attacker takes damage could really stack up high, and that you could get significant damage returned, resulting in player-suicide in lld! This considered, a friend and I made an experiment to test the theory. . . .

We got a 3sok'd shield and filled it with perfect skulls, that makes 60 damage returned to attacker. We then removed all other equipment and had a character with 0 damage reduction attack. The shields returns were consistently between 10 and 11 damage. 10 more often than 11.

Then, we added some damage reduction to the attacker and saw him take 8 damage. So. . . . atd CAN add up to rather significant amounts, and tactfully can hurt your opponent, HOWEVER, damage reduction can significantly alter that. Seems as how just about nobody uses either of these things mindfully, I think it can help the lld scene to further investigate the items you put on your duelers.

We concluded that for every 6 points in atd, 1 point is actually dealt. The shield's 60 results in 10 consistent points of damage. Bladebuckle has 8, thats another point, nagelrings have 3 each, thats one more points, sig plate and ONE other piece results in 12atd, thats two more points as well. 14 points of damage returned to attacker. . . . I'm fairly certain it can go even higher than this. I'd like to create another experiment and put these findings to the lld test-- a tank barb! I'm thinking a BO speed barb who may use leap attack as well. . . wielding an 87 dimensional blade. I have a lot of research to do. . . .

TCats

28-03-2008, 18:09

Mostly, I agree with apple's assessment. There are some small changes I would make though.

a) 9-11 (excludes Angelic set and level 12 skills)
b) 12-18 (excludes level 19 item mods and some low class exceptionals)
c) 19-24 (excludes high class exceptional items like BH and martel)
d) 25-29

I recently made a fun amazon for casual 9-11 duels. It's not rushed through act 1, but it can still sting a bit. Primary skill is magic arrow because it doesn't require any arrows to use and adds damage/ar.

Helm: Cathan's
Armor: Arctic
Gloves: Arctic
Boots: Hotspur
Belt: Arctic
Weapon Arctic
Rings: Cathan's
Ammy: Nokozan

Skills:
10 magic arrow
1 crit

Stats (base):
20 str
45 dex
50 vit
15 nrg

Interesting stuff:
70-118 damage (stat window)
26-44 cold damage
21-32 fire damage
.3 mana per arrow (I fired 262 magic arrows non-stop before I ran out of mana... no quiver required)
808 ar
185 def
+85 to life (245 life total sans rush)
+20 to mana (55 mana total)
+25 str
+10 dex
95 fr
75 cr
cannot be frozen

It's a budget friendly build that probably won't win any serious fights *cough*sac pallies*cough.* But for a level 11 zon, it's not bad. If you use hit and run tactics, I'm sure you could go toe to toe with other good level 11s, but ehhhhh some say it's bm. If I rushed it, I'd probably put one more point on magic arrow, max dodge, and dump the rest on crit or inner sight.

EDIT: seeing apple's latest post, I have some things to add.

Amplify damage doubles the amount of damage from atd. There was this great build that I saw once where the player had a melee necro using some parts of the sigon set (20 atd), a 3 pskull shield (60 atd), and probably some other atd stuff (nagels?). Anyway, assuming that he was wearing 2 nagels, that's 86 base atd. With amp, it becomes 172. The pvp nerf applies to atd the same way it does to any other damage, so that's 28 damage returned per hit. The cool part is that this is returned even if the damage is absorbed by bone armor. So the guy would cast amp and them recast bone armor over and over. He also had a strong weapon, taking advantage of the amp damage.

Applekid

28-03-2008, 19:20

EDIT: seeing apple's latest post, I have some things to add.

Amplify damage doubles the amount of damage from atd. There was this great build that I saw once where the player had a melee necro using some parts of the sigon set (20 atd), a 3 pskull shield (60 atd), and probably some other atd stuff (nagels?). Anyway, assuming that he was wearing 2 nagels, that's 86 base atd. With amp, it becomes 172. The pvp nerf applies to atd the same way it does to any other damage, so that's 28 damage returned per hit. The cool part is that this is returned even if the damage is absorbed by bone armor. So the guy would cast amp and them recast bone armor over and over. He also had a strong weapon, taking advantage of the amp damage.

I believe this great build was Midou's Itisabird. :D
He was a level 20 melee nec. I was wondering about curses, and you've answered my question! I didn't want to copy Midou's build tho. . . .

Here's a question:
What do you guys think about dueling auxiliaries? For example, a level 8 prayer pala who helps out during duels but can't actually be killed :D

fledgeling

28-03-2008, 20:02

I kinda not believe in this attacker takes damage thing. It seems to work only vs zealots, smiters and jab-zons. All other characters attack rather slowly - and all the players rather go max damage, than many hits.

As for the zon, I was performing similar experiments, but never actually duelled, at level 16 the cold damage (with cold arrow) was not bad (on paper) , but I wonder if hit and run tactics could kill anyone (basically grab the unique 30frw boots, maybe even blinkbat instead of twitch)

Here's a question:
What do you guys think about dueling auxiliaries? For example, a level 8 prayer pala who helps out during duels but can't actually be killed :D

That's cheating!

It's like using enchant in BvB : (

If you want to test such thigns then you could try a level 67+ valkazon+fanaticism/conc pally + BO :D

Applekid

06-04-2008, 19:20

I've began groundwork on a lvl 19 or lvl 21 necro. It looks like it will be 21 atm. . . . unfortunately. Lvl 19 was just terrible lol. I'll let you guys know the results of my monster >:)

WarlockCC

06-04-2008, 21:45

I made a level 22 nec recently, since I had some nice tri-res/life/fhr level 22 items. I am still considering making him level 23 to be able to use magefists.
It's off-ladder though, so I have some (legit btw) prelod options.
He worked really well in the few tests I've been able to conduct.
I will test him more when I get a chance.

yohed

07-04-2008, 00:48

My friend buhnanna, a member of this forum has a lvl 15 charger. Its his account but I gear all his chars :P

Here are some screenies of his weps, other than that he wears a combo of sigons and angelics.

Pike (http://s240.photobucket.com/albums/ff217/yohed55/lld_pike.jpg)
War Hammer (http://s240.photobucket.com/albums/ff217/yohed55/lld_wh.jpg)

Pike I got for a soj and the wh I found in a2 when I was rushing somebody. He does 1085 dmg with the pike and about 600 dmg with the warhammer.

fledgeling

07-04-2008, 01:49

Applekid

12-04-2008, 06:05

I was trying really hard to restrict my necro from 20+, to me it would be more underbuilt than impressive that way. 21 is looking like a viable prospect. I have a nice 20fcr +3bs wand :D

Applekid

24-04-2008, 00:30

Well, my lvl 21 nec is finished and it exceeded expectations. It's a very nice build and I recommend it. A very powerful contender in its bracket. I started work on a lvl 31 all-defense barb, but I messed up the skills and had to start over >.<

Turtleism

24-04-2008, 09:34

howd u mess his skills james? just max shout and as many as possible on iron skin, everything else is just lvl1, including bo and ww.

and btw ive been playing east for a while now and i have found it uber dissapointing, major lack of trading games and lld games. might have to try euro or asia to find some decent lld'ing.

Applekid

24-04-2008, 23:35

yeah, I maxed mastery >< It was a sonofagun.
I wasn't thinking and got a little to excited. I need to lay off the mountain dew, sugar pills and coffee grinds and think about what I'm doing next time. I'll start leveling again soon. I picked up a sweet 5xx def sharktooth (sexy red hue), a nice naga, a 252 def grim +life, a decent grim shield, and some very nice battle gauntlets. Belt isn't bad either. Anyone know of a free program I could use to take screenshots?

WarlockCC

25-04-2008, 11:43

I'd probably just hit the printscreen button while in Diablo 2 to save a screenshot000.jpg in my Diablo 2 directory and then edit it with gimp before uploading.

Applekid

28-04-2008, 17:25

Lol Seth, so East isn't nearly as good as they play it up to be eh? The def barb is back up. Rockin and rollin.

In other news. . . .

I'm so disappointed! I found a 148 damage tusk sword with 30ias, but the stuuupid lvl requirement is 30!!! >< D2 breaks my heart.
Any ideas on what I can do with a clvl30 30ias 148 tusk? ANYTHING? I was thinking something like a 2-h zealer at lvl 35, but that would just look silly.

I got a 51 damage cudgel!! lol. Idk quite what to do with it. I also have a 4-48 bow with clvl 18, I was thinking I could make a nice 18 or 24 bowa. I still want to make a frenzy barb, I'm just too lazy to lvl it :S Oh and I don't know the skills ><

Tips? For any of this stuff?

EDIT: On second hand, that 35 zealer looks like a nb idea. I only need 50 ias, that's the weapon and either sigs or twitch. That leaves a lot open to the imagination... If I use sigs, that could mean a sexy crossover between a 2-h tusk and a 1-h dimensional. Idk. I'll see where this idea heads.

Lorg

04-05-2008, 22:10

Also made a 30 lv def bvb that really works as bva for those levels. Not having uber def but around 4000 seem to be good enough for 30 lv barb. Got a nice bh for 30 lv, with cold dmg on it as serious extra since belts need 41 to have etc.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/4623/screenshot008kw4.jpg

SHINOBIPANDA

22-05-2008, 02:46

Applekid

25-05-2008, 22:02

alright guys i hav a build that im making right now for lld.actually 2. im making a lvl 16 throw barb and a lvl 20 bozon. my barb will either be using throw pots or spears. he will use tarn twitch gorefoot etlich manalds bfist and a rare belt i found. ima put moat of my stats into double throw and throw master and a couple into leap. my zon is going to use rouges bow tarn twitch nightsmoke etlich bfist and ca thans rings for leech life. she is going to use magic arrow so she can shoot forever really fast because the rouges bow is fastest bow in the game for classic. i was wonderin i f there is anything that i can do to upgrade these chars.

I'd say that you can use a stronger bow on your zon. I have a clvl 18 bow with about 50 damage and 20ias, so I can get a... 9fpa? I think 9...
I would go with guided arrow and critical strike. A point or two in evade for zvz. Toss on a lifemask, twitch, death set, angelic ammy and 1 ring, then a dex/mana/life/res ring on the other side. either go 22-24 for gtoes, or toss on sum res boots with frw or hsarus or something.

Neva made a throwbarb, but I have made a throwzon :D
They're very interesting. See if you can track down some war darts.

SHINOBIPANDA

25-05-2008, 22:29

i found a really good lld razor bow its like 140ed -30req lvl 18req. nat poison dmg too. im thinking of soceting it psaph

barty

27-05-2008, 18:49

Applekid

28-05-2008, 08:09

anyone think this bow can be viable lld? mabe better suited for mld or actually, enough dmg and -req for a viable hi lvl .. not sure any suggestions? build/type?
120 dmg -30 req 1-4 fire dmg 5 ml gothic 200ish ar , lvl 25...
i think with 60 ias it can hit 9 fpa or is it 10.. [gwrap 10, twitch 20 , sigsx2 30 ]
was thinkin of a build but not sure if a goth bow can hit 9 fpa, cause ive heard that 10 is just too slow. any suggestions?

Thats a very viable bow. The damage is exceptional and with the -reqs you're set. If you had 20ias on the bow it would be perfect, but sometimes you gotta take the good with the bad =/
LLD bowzons are a lot of fun. Go nuts.

barty

29-05-2008, 17:29

apple u got any suggestions for a set up? all ias{sig glove+boot, gwrap,twitch for 60 ias?} or some ias and cbf[deaths] and cb/ow[gobs/boneflesh]? trying to figure out the build, would crit strike cause more dmg at hi lvl [50%+]over time or would a hi lvl guided work better? might be funny to have lvl 1 guided and hi lvl crit strike or just the opposite... and the dodges... heheh got some palnning to do. might have to be abit of all of them.just curious as to your experience and any advice on skill placements.
oh, one more question: anyone ever really used slow missles vs pallies and necros ^^?
that could be gg with knockback......... dude..... dude....:)

Applekid

03-06-2008, 23:56

I'm new to the bowzon world, I made my first lvl 27 LLD this ladder, but she's undefeated save Seth, Sculpy and Luke (only because Seth is a bastard, Sculpy has a specialized zvz build, and Luke is amazing). But we've all got some very nice builds. I'd say if you have a Goth bow, it all depends on what the reqs look like.

You have so many decisions to make in terms of gear, for example: You'd have to calculate which would be more to your advantage, if you have low reqs on the bow (i.e. less than 60str.) you'd probably use deaths gloves/belt for an all-vit build, or if your bow has high reqs, you'd probably need sig gloves/belt to alleviate some of the str. load, after all, 10 str = 30 life, combined with twitch's 10 str = 60 life, combined with some rings and maybe an ammy? That's a lot of life.
As far as gear is concerned, let's start with what we know, then take it from the top. You have a bow, which takes care of your left and right (weapon and shield) category. Let's talk about helmets. As far as helmets, you'll want either a 3-sok mask, or 3-sok death mask saturated with p.rubies for the life bonus against other zons, and also a howltusk for pretty much everyone else. In zvz*, the knockback on Howltusk just makes you worse, trust me and go with a lifehelm. Your armor is, of course, Twitchthroe. Glove/belt is either sigs or deaths, depending on your assessment (OR I suppose you could just get some really sexy ias mana/life steal with str, dex and dual res, with a sexy fhr/life/mana/str/dual res belt ;]]]) But if that's out of your price range, or if you don't have the ias you need to be successful, just go with sigs/deaths how ever you see fit. The boots are goblintoes, without a doubt. Have some frw with fhr and dual/tri res on hold, but you will be using gtoes ftmp. Last is bling, use angelic ammy and 1 angelic ring, the other ring should be saturated with str, dex, mana and resistances galore.

To remark, I haven't actually made a high level zon, but if you're on US West (or even if you aren't, just make a character), I'd say to hit up lilbo. His/her account is dedicated to different types of bowzons, and he kicks my respectable dueler's arse just about every time, idk how :D

Good luck and sharp shooting,
Applekid

*(Others choose to have a more zva (zon vs. all) type build, where you choose to battle more than just other bowzons or ranged attackers. In which case, you might want to be less dependent on the +str of your equipment and be able to equip a range of equipment, like hawkmail and res. equipment, but imho, this is a stupid idea and you should stick to a specialized build.)

Applekid

06-06-2008, 02:41

I've decided to put up a post regarding a lvl 20 melee nec. Here's how it's done:

I picked up a decent lvl 20 cudgel, with 5x damage, 20ias, 7str, ar, and cold damage. The str. requirement is low on the cudgel, which is a benefit, except that I still have to equip sig plate, but since the cudgel can be equipped before sig gloves, this means that I can plan the str from the cudgel into the build.

Your equipment will look something like. . . .
-Head: 3-sok life mask, 3-sok skulls crown, Duskkeep full helm and Isenhart's full helm on hold
-Weapon: Sexy cudgel described above, or a gg wh with ias, good damage, ar, and maybe some life
-Body: Sig plate. Twitch on hold
-Shield: 3-sok p.skull large shield, Sig shield and Swordback on hold.
-Gloves: Sig gloves, Bloodfist on hold.
-Belt: Sig belt (For 30ias on gloves), or fhr, life, str, res belt with Attacker Takes Damage of __ (atd), Death's belt on hold.
-Boots: Gorefoot, with Treads and Spurs on hold.
-Ammy: Angelic ammy with Nokozan and Cathans on hold
-Rings: One angelic ring, the other stat/life/ar/res ring with Nagelring (mf doesn't matter) on hold.

Your stats will be something like. . . .
-Enough str to equip sig plate (planning ahead for any stats on rings, weapon, belt, gloves etc.)
-Enough dex for equipment (same disclaimer as above)
-All vit

And your skills will be resemble. . . .
-Bone armor
-max Bone wall (synergizes with b.a.)
-Amplify Damage
-1 Clay Golem
-Weaken

The way this build works is a keen focus on returning damage to the attacker. Most all of your equipment should have atd, while your bone armor defends against attacks and your wh/cudgel smashes the skull of your opponent, who remains crippled by curses. Amplify damage can double both the damage you deal, and the damage they take from atd. Cast, cast and recast bone armor when necessary. Good luck dueling :D

Sidebar: Most casters will destroy this build ez :D

Of Excellence and Servitude,
Applekid

HegemonKhan

06-06-2008, 05:37

i don't know anything about pvp. but if u want basic (PVM) bow amazon knowledge let me know. maybe than u can apply it to pvp. i know some about bow amazons but NOT for pvp'ing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think i read about this build on another site and it was for LOD and for PVM, so it may not work for classic and pvp, but anyways here it is briefly:

some one tried to make a "tank" bowazon (bow/xbow using amazon). instead of running around, they made it so the amazon jsut stood where she was and let arrows fly. they gave her high def gear and raised the dodge skills (the two of them where u standing still). they used srafe but this was for pvm. but since its a "tank" build anyways and u standing still, u might wanna use strafe anyways if u against melee pvp'ers. it might be fun to see if this would work okay for classic pvp'ing or not. i have no idea what gear u should use as their build was for LOD pvm. just high def gear rares.

err sorry this is more for a MLD or HLD but oh well..maybe u can make a LLD version of it if anyone wants to try it.

Lorg

06-06-2008, 06:44

FOr lld faster frames is even more important than on mid level duels. Just grap a 20 ias 150 ed double bow (if you do find one under 30 lv req sell it to me). Wear howl tusk, sigs gloves, boots, gold wrap and twich. Knock back with 8 frames keep even chargers back. Its just a matter of do you dodge the first charge or not.
Edit: charger who swaps to 1 h weapon and shield kill every time. Not many carry a 1h weapon with them :)

Ww barbs can be done too if they just reached 30. Not many of them are speeders at that level ^^

barty

06-06-2008, 16:49

Applekid

06-06-2008, 20:56

I have a sexy 14xed double bow :D

Lorg

08-06-2008, 13:08

agreed lorg, if u didnt read above , i've got a 120 -30 req fire dmg goth bow [no ias tho]for lvl 25, with 60 ias i think i can hit 9 fpa?[9fpa viable with high dmg?+kb] that might be enough to rape... with dodge/slowmissles/critstrike little d/e/a.. if i make, ill post updates on progress. u guys talked me into it ^^

edit: Applekid i hope your has 20 ias on it. Otherwise its like using runebow :)

Gothic can reach 10 frames rune 9 and double 8

It can work. Its pretty heavy dmg on low levels.

I'll make mine around this baby. Too bad have to level to 30 and not stay 29. Well cant have everything, still very nice for its level and its not like bow zon gets anything major at level 30. Maybe its accepeted to low level duels :)

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4286/screenshot009is9.jpg

Applekid

13-06-2008, 19:13

With the ladder reset coming up, this will be a good place to post progress and set up duels and meetings. Sweet deal, I look forward to a strong LLD scene when the ladder resets.
Peace,
Applekid

darknessproz

26-06-2008, 14:59

whats the skill and item build for a lvl29 lld bone necro?

barty

03-07-2008, 00:26

look for sculpens build guide. its posted a few pages back, he built one tuff necro. props sculp. it might actually be in a different thread not labeled as his own thread but i ahve seen it try searching his name and build or w/e.

Lorg

03-07-2008, 07:19

This is the sculpens guide...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First off, its great to see this thread still alive and kickin'.

I thought I'd share my expereriences with my latest LLD, my level 29 Bonemancer. His current stats can be seen here. As has been stated in previous posts, he is a very strong counter to high-powered chargers. In theory, he should be able to beat a charger of any level, especialy in hell. The fight is yours to lose. You begin with the advantage, and should only lose if you mess up.

The first step to beating chargers is, if you can, back yourself up against a wall, tree, puddle, shrine, chest, anything to prevent urself from being knocked back. You can create your own knockback-proof barrier by making 2 Bone Walls in an X shape and standing in the center of it. Then just recast Bone Armor when necessary, and fire away with Bone Spear. If the charger is skilled, he may require a couple Bone Prisons to hold him still.

453 Spear damage may not look like alot, but coupled with 80fcr (10 frame cast), and non-resistable damage, it will lay waste to most enemies in a couple seconds of direct fire. Fireball vs only 75% fire resist would need to do over 1800 damage just to do the same damage as Bone Spear. Most people will greatly underestimate the damage he is capable of doing, and will try to tank, but by the time they realize this is a mistake, they are dead.

His resists appear very mediocre in that screen because well, I'm poor, and can't afford tripple or even dual res fcr rings. Instead, I have a ton of fcr single res rings that I switch around depending on the enemy. I have enough additional gear to bring any single res to 80% or higher.

I havn't been challenged hard by any LLD Sorceress thus far. Although I suspect a well played Blizz could be a very long and frustrating duel. Just havn't encountered one yet.

He is also a very strong counter to mid level WW Barbs. Most noob barbs will start out guarding town, so you take this opportunity to summon a Clay Golem next to them. After they attack it, you jump out and hit them with Decrepify, which I get from Ume's. At this point they will move extremely slowly, and once they enter a ww, there will be major lag for them, which you can capitalize on. If you're good at running, you can even go 2 or 3 vs 1, and beat them all. For Barbs I switch my gear to Ume's + Wormskull + Bbat's Form. This grants a golem that slows more, longer duration on Decrepify, and up to 40 fr/w.

Some tough duels to win have been vs hell rushed frost/shock zealers who use General's flail. This was mainly back when I only had about 50 cold res in gear. Now that I have Hawkmail and can raise cr to 90, it is not an issue. The only other real challenge has been LLD Hammerdins who are highly skilled at short synching. It is truely a test of skill to beat these invisible chars. I've only seen 2 LLD Hdins capable of doing this however.

And ofcourse another Necro of similar quality will pose a threat, and a great, intense, drawn-out NvN battle should ensue. LLD NvN is my 2nd favorite thing to do, after high level NvN.

For gear, simply meet these guidelines and your off to a good start:
80 fcr
58 fhr : 24+24+10
30 frw

Then just get as much life and resists as you can while maintaining those standards, and your necro will be good to go. Also, forget about Wormskull; make a Pruby mask and sport it proudly. The only Uniques worth using are Magefist and Wall Of The Eyeless.

For skills, max these skills in this order:

Spear -> Prison -> Wall -> Teeth

And remember to only put 1 point in Bone Armor. I also recommend 1 point in Clay Golem.

In the end, he is like bringing a minigun to a knife fight. And I suggest everyone make one, because LLD Bone Necros are vastly under-represented. They are highly rewarding to play because victory is based largely on player skill.

BlastoNecrosis

22-07-2008, 16:27

whats a good charlvl to try and gamble lld (12-19 range) wep's like mauls and wh's

TraderScope

22-07-2008, 17:40

"Items generated for the gamble stock are -5 through +4 levels of your character's level".
Ok so now we want to do the maths for the desired affixes and suffixes, and find out what is the highest level of those prefixes.

Weapon lvl 12
-------------
Desired Suffixes: -20% Requirements (lvl 15) (Highest desired Prefix lvl.)

So, if you would gamble a lvl 12 WH or a Maul, you would want to have a character lvl of 20 to make sure you would have a chance to spawn that -20req on your gambled weapon.

TraderScope

22-07-2008, 17:52

Turtle, you think a lvl 12 Sorc would work in any way? What would be my starting and end gear like, could someone give me, a starting LLD sorc some tips? I know I should aim for higher lvl's to be more viable, but I think it would also cut the fun for me..I would like to keep the lvl as low as possible, thanks! Great classic-community and LLD here :)

BlastoNecrosis

22-07-2008, 18:13

TraderScope

22-07-2008, 18:19

so in theory it would be ideal to gamble with a lvl 20 to get the highest possible spawn rate for said desired mods at the lowest price. correct/

Yes, also this limits the spawning of some other, non desired affixes and higher level items. Although not fool proof, because you can also get +4 (24) lvl affixes, because of the nature of gambling :)

TraderScope

23-07-2008, 02:06

Found this today, would this get me any gear in trades you think :) ?
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7514/wraithmarlldclassicwm6.jpg

TraderScope

23-07-2008, 05:33

A lvl 19 halberd with interesting stats: http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1705/painsongdq6.jpg

yohed

23-07-2008, 05:48

I made a 30 fireball sorc recently. I have 513 health, an 800 damage fball and 75 all res hell. Still need nightmare and hell quests too D:

TraderScope

24-07-2008, 23:57

Lorg

25-07-2008, 11:58

Bump^^ Could someone tell me if any of these 3 items I have found are viable for a LLD?
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/7074/compilationofllditems1ad9.jpg

Also have found a:
Grim Cudgel (Cudgel ftl?)
lvl reg. 34 (damn?=)
str. reg 25
30 IAS
144%ED
153 AR
+13 str
+50% dmg to undead

They all charsi food :(

If you need under 20 lv or lower charge weapon, then the easiest way is to gather some gold and gamble away with a char that can get the desired mods but cannot get ones that boost level req. (gambling is cheaper too on lower level chars for weapons) Use the formula given in the 'letting out some steam' thread with the item you want (usually pikes or great mauls) to calculate the level of character you should be using for gambling. Few millions and you should have 150+ dmg 19 lv req pike in your hands. Or atleast over 140 dmg...

TraderScope

25-07-2008, 19:18

How about this crown I found (already posted in the item valuation thread..)
It's level reg. is 13, which in my eyes is very low for this kind of an item:

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2043/demonmasklldcrownop3.jpg

dougolasjr

25-07-2008, 20:41

Usually a 3 perf/flaw/Flawed ruby mask would be of more use considering at that low level you don't really have to worry about resist.

TraderScope

25-07-2008, 21:30

Usually a 3 perf/flaw/Flawed ruby mask would be of more use considering at that low level you don't really have to worry about resist.

Thank you for this informative answer :thumbup:

TraderScope

26-07-2008, 06:56

Would the unique Axe "Chieftain" be viable for a LLD?

Two-Hand Damage: 26 To 66 (46 Avg)
Required Level: 19
Required Strength: 54
Durability: 40
Base Weapon Speed: [10]
+100% Enhanced Damage
20% Increased Attack Speed
Adds 1-40 Lightning Damage
All Resistances +10-20(varies)
+6 To Mana After Each Kill

UnderAge

26-07-2008, 08:13

Why can't it. lvl 19 req go for it =)

fledgeling

26-07-2008, 09:31

it has very low damage, you can get something much better for that level
also, you can use a biggin's bonnet for 30% more damage vs some opponents

TraderScope

27-07-2008, 01:16

Possible LLD pike for low level dueling?

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5654/doompikelldqt9.jpg

Lorg

28-07-2008, 07:38

Possible LLD pike for low level dueling?

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5654/doompikelldqt9.jpg

That will work.Great mauls are usually better since more min dmg, but pikes look more menacing. For 16 lv that's ok. Personally would go for 19 lv req pikes to get some more dmg. Got an example for 19 lv. Its not ûber but works nicely...

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/296/screenshot004cu5.jpg

TraderScope

28-07-2008, 09:36

That will work.Great mauls are usually better since more min dmg, but pikes look more menacing. For 16 lv that's ok. Personally would go for 19 lv req pikes to get some more dmg. Got an example for 19 lv. Its not ûber but works nicely...

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/296/screenshot004cu5.jpg

Thanks for the input but someone already suggested me to Charsi it. I guess I didn't lose much?

Lorg

28-07-2008, 09:55

U did not loose anything only gained some gold. Would have done the same...

TraderScope

28-07-2008, 14:53

Here's another:
Pike
Dmg:19-93
rlvl: 11
38ED/+7 Max.dmg
+109 AR
Knockback
-20 req.

Metalkon

01-08-2008, 11:58

Does anybody know if a lv30 lld barb build such as would work out even if the items were different? The idea is to start off with 1-2 attacks of Frenzy then finish the person off with stun while having slow/knockback/cold on the attack. I only made this in single player and I am trying to copy a paladins charge.

I am new to lld

Items:
Very Fast High/Med Dmg Weapon
Cleg Sword
Cleg Gloves
Berserker Helmet
Berserker Armor
Angelic Amulet/Rings
Frw Boots
A Belt
Cold Damage From an Item

Skills:
Max Frenzy
Max Frw
Max BO
Lv10 Stun
Lv1 Leap Attack
Prereqs
Rest in Mastery

Lorg

26-10-2008, 18:15

Posting here my lld 30 lv ww def barb. I like it cause it seems like a GS barb but is not and the items r nice for 30 lv. At least imo. Def is 5700 @ 30 block 69, life 1100.

http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot030kz9.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot029wy9.jpg

http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot028nv9.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot027rg1.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot024gy4.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot009hi5.jpg

And ofcourse gobs and 2 angelic rings and amu.

Its fun and effective and NOT a twicher or rattle lld :)

yohed

27-10-2008, 04:39

Very nice barb Lorg. I gotta go get a towel to wipe the drool off of my laptop now :thumbup:

yohed

27-10-2008, 04:42

Lorg

27-10-2008, 08:19

Very nice barb Lorg. I gotta go get a towel to wipe the drool off of my laptop now :thumbup:

Ty!

Nice 30 lv or lower items are not very common and i'm still looking for a warbelt with similar mods plus better def. But as it is my 'Orange' bad boy is pretty close to what i want my lld barb to be :)

zrk

29-10-2008, 20:17

Here's another:
Pike
Dmg:19-93
rlvl: 11
38ED/+7 Max.dmg
+109 AR
Knockback
-20 req.

Useless :coffee:

Its important to note that a pike HAS to have around 70-80% ED(which is also the maximum possible) and do have an additional 7 or more max dmg with a level requirement of 11 to do more damage than an easily shoppable 50% ED great maul.

Which basically means that its easy to shop a great maul that does as much damage as a perfect rare gozu pike. The only downside - higher requirements.

At level 15 though, a pike with perfect mods does 88 av damage vs the 78 of an easily shopped 65% ED great maul, though a perfect great maul still does 107.

So in summary: 90% of us should use a shopped great maul for low level chargers, except those blasted lucky ones to find a better rare one. Pikes for only those seeking aesthetic value.

kenw

24-11-2008, 19:40

Hm, what are the best lld builds? It's been awhile, since I've created one. I was planning on making a lvl 30 fballer, but I'm unsure if it's an astute idea. Could sorc ammies get the priz modifier?

Lizardking

24-11-2008, 20:16

Whats important with Throwbarbs about the items ? And are the throwbarbs still powerfull ?

fredsta54

24-11-2008, 21:04

lvl 25 lld throw barbs are viable, i made one in 1.10.

use 2X 15%ed harpoons as weapons.

twitch is probably your best bet for armour
deaths belt and gloves
angelic rings and ammy
114 life helm is good, theres a unique helm that adds iirc 15 resist all and 8 max damage
as for boots r/w and resists are probably the way to go

figure out what skills to use yourself :P

Fred

Lorg

25-11-2008, 21:54

Got my hands on a very nice lld bow. Leveling zon for this gem as it is...
http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot012rn0.jpg

Hope u like it. Lld zon not ez to make :)

Mosaab

21-12-2008, 02:06

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but I'll give it shot:
This one runs by many names; Slowadin, Lame-adin, Gens holy Freezer.
Basically, use holy shield, smite and holy freeze. You can also use charge, but i've found that even with the 1 pt as a prereq, that's all you need to knock someone off guard. Couple the effects of holy freeze with the general's flail (target slowed by 50%) and if you're feeling extra mean, clegs gloves (an extra 25%). I've found that this build is pretty solid after about lvl 27, as many points as possible into holy shield, a few into holy freeze, mainly just to increase the radius, and the rest into smite.

The problem is the low initial damage, which is remedied usually by putting points into charge, or finding yourself a sweet grim sheild with a lower lvl requirement.

Gear (On my character):
-Generals Flail
-Clegs gloves
-3 socked grand crown with perfect rubies
-rare mageplate (500 def, 24% fhr, low psn and cold res, lvl 27 req)
-Treads
-Grim sheild (about 210 def, 60% chance to block)
-Rare light belt with duel res
-2x angelic rings
-angelic ammy

A lot of people complain about how unfair the build is, they get frozen no matter what they're wearing, but it really isn't too difficult to outmaneuver if you know what you're doing. Plus, it's pretty fun to use holy freeze on Nkers who can't get to you fast enough.

WarlockCC

21-12-2008, 20:19

In 1.09 I tested Generals, Clegs and Tancreds slow and speculate they do not stack, they cancel eachother out. After the first hit the target was moving slow, after another hit he was moving slightly faster and yet another hit he was somewhat slowed again. This lead me to believe(and this is only speculation on my part) that they cancel each other out.
Aka after the first hit I think he got generals slowed, then he was cleg slowed and for the third hit he was Tancred slowed.

Mosaab

21-12-2008, 23:30

Well the gloves were actually my own addition. I thought that they did stack. Most people agree to go with the flail at least for this build.

deichsela

12-01-2009, 09:15

mmm... I just bought a +3 BH, +3 Conc, +2 Charge scepter. Boosts my lvl24 HDin's damage to 1029-1066.

HegemonKhan

12-01-2009, 09:55

Lorg

13-01-2009, 09:29

wow, nearly godly scepter deich...just need +2 pal, 10% FCR, and resists :D

and wow, lorg, that "LLD" bow is better than all my bows... V.V

where'd or how u got that bow if u found it from mosnters..that is.. or u gambled it? or traded for it?

Hmz don't gamble bows. The chances for it to actually be an exceptional version and rare + have usefull mods is minuscule.

It really is just an lld bow -> for reference Eu ladder has a 32-159 20 ias balck gothic on sale as it is... And even with that bow i would make an mld of it not high lv dueler -> last ladder i used the 38-156 20 ias one and found out that mld is best level for it (imo) and still the dmg is not amazing....

Fists of War

16-01-2009, 08:44

Ooh, a 24-111 pike, 67 AR, level 10 reqs.

Is this the best setup?

Level 12 Charger.

Full angelics (excluding weapon)
Sigon's Helm/Boots
Death's Sash/Gloves

TraderScope

16-01-2009, 09:08

fledgeling

16-01-2009, 18:38

Maul req. lvl 9
reguired str: 69
57% ED [47-71]
+4 Max. dmg
+59 AR

I guess no one uses Mauls ?

And what about this, seems very nice?

http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lldclaymorecj2.jpg

For the "image blinded":

Claymore
reg. lvl 11.
59 ED, +4-7 dmg
+62 AR
adds 1-15 Ligthning dmg.

Warhammer
reg. lvl 13
81 ED [34-52]
56 AR
1-9 lightning dmg.
4% ML

I use mauls, they are much better than pikes, due to the min dmg.You can get like 600 min dmg with a maul. I think 110 max dmg is possible on level 12, I have like 102 dmg maul

Fists of War

17-01-2009, 12:55

Pikes for style, all the way.

It's not about winning, it's about winning and looking like a little guy with a GIGANTIC pointy stick!

Lorg

19-01-2009, 17:35

Here's my nice 'pike' for 30 lv lld speeder barb. Its very fun :)

http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot040jw2.jpg

And here's deacent bonehelm i use on my lld chars aswell (pala is 51 in picture, just testing charger with 172 dmg bh ^). Like the nice lok it gives especially on palas as dark helm...

http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot041nz0.jpg

TraderScope

21-01-2009, 06:43

http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=compile1ni1.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=impsplittcn6.jpg

Im not sure if those are good for lld, the Knout looks nice?

TraderScope

22-01-2009, 09:23

I don't know if any of those above items are actually any good, but
now I found a really nice looking Spetum for an amazon!! I thought about making one if this weapon gets approval from the lld community :)

So, tell me what you think of this spear-weapon:

http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spetumdb9.jpg

Too bad about the low ED though, would have been godly I guess :/

Fists of War

22-01-2009, 10:40

I applaud your enthusiasm, but you really need to do a bit of reading up on the various types of succesful LLD characters. Try the "fun lld" thread for some ideas.

Anyways, here is a basic list of some builds that will work with varying success:

*level 12 zeal/charge pally (warhammer and shield)
*level 12-29 charger (maul/great maul/pike/lance)
level 24-29 smiter (barbed shield/fast weapon, probably with CB and OW)
level 30 FoHer
level 29 hammerdin

level 29 fireball sorc

*level 29 bone necromancer

level 12 bash barb
*level 30 WW barb

level 9/12 jabber
level 29 bowazon
level 29(?) charged strike zon

Just a few off the top of my head...the pick of the crop are the ones marked with asterix's - doesn't mean more innovative builds won't work almost as well though.

Also, I am not ISO "level 30 isn't lld" arguements :)

deichsela

22-01-2009, 11:07

^^ Good basic list.

My other LLDs:
Lvl12/24 Dual Death's
Lvl20 Martyr (Sacrifice)
Lvl20 Ice Blast

TraderScope

22-01-2009, 11:50

Nice list, just what I have been looking for! But why wouldn't a lvl 22 Amazon work with that spear (if we ignore its lousy ED :/ ) and what does FOHer mean? Could you explain, Thanks.

deichsela

22-01-2009, 11:59

I'm not sure how a two-hand weapon could work on a zon to defeat the other llds.

FOHer = Fist Of the Heavens Paladin.

TraderScope

22-01-2009, 13:02

level 29(?) charged strike zon

I guess it could work with the nice skills Amazon can get to close combat.

Fists of War

22-01-2009, 14:26

Refering to deichsela's comment - that's one of the main reasons you'd use a javelin-type weapon along with a shield on a charged strike zon.

You'd only use a 2-hander for damage, which is what your weapon is lacking.

So you can see you're inbetween the two things you want, and thus that weapon is mainly worthless, sorry.

If you want to get high physical damage on a 2-hander, use a Pike or Lance depending on your level. Using jab with IAS is not that slow with these weps.

TraderScope

23-01-2009, 13:36

Nice Martel I found:

Martel 109% ED
127-211 DMG LEVEL REQ: 25
+5 Max DMG
+126 AR
adds 1-10 Fire DMG.
adds +7 Psn dmg over 3 sec.
50% Dmg to Undead.

Fists of War

23-01-2009, 14:34

Nice Martel I found:

Martel 109% ED
127-211 DMG LEVEL REQ: 25
+5 Max DMG
+126 AR
adds 1-10 Fire DMG.
adds +7 Psn dmg over 3 sec.
50% Dmg to Undead.

That's actually not too shabby, max ed is 150%. Nice weapon for a lv30 WW barb before you get one closer to 150. Maybe even a level 25 charger.

Mosaab

23-01-2009, 22:11

Not sure if anyone mentioned lld pikes, but I was wondering, is lvl 9 with 103 max dmg a good pike for a vlld?

Fists of War

23-01-2009, 22:23

Yes. I have a level 11 req pike with 111 max, good for a lv 12 charger.

If it's lv 9 req however, you might want to try something else like a lv 9 jabber.

TraderScope

27-01-2009, 15:22

Ok, now that I am fairly well educated of weapons in the LLD scene, I am now moving on to shields with my stupid questions..

I found this shield, can anyone say if someone would prefer it over the Sigons Shield which has +1 to skills (+ set bonuses) and much higher block, at least I think this shield is "unique" and fun :)

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7378/impwinglldll0.jpg

The shield is very nice blue colored.

Haven't seen anything like this on rares for that lvl.

Cheers.

Lorg

27-01-2009, 15:40

That's actually not too shabby, max ed is 150%. Nice weapon for a lv30 WW barb before you get one closer to 150. Maybe even a level 25 charger.

Hmz. ww barbs usually prefer lv req 30 not 25 lv req one (making this low dmg choice for 30 lv lld barb even a 250 ed steel driver is lots better), which allows 165 ed on weapons. In Europe there is a 275 dmg martel for lv 30... Besides @ 30 full req marts are not in use generally. I use a 22x dmg -20 req on my lld barb named Lorg ofc... Need better ofc ...Anyone have?

Mosaab

29-01-2009, 00:31

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll221/Mosaab1991/Screenshot029.jpg

This is that pike I was talking about. I'm not really too good at lld, so I think I'm gonna trade it. If anyone plays nonladder us east, hit me up. I take items and fg.

Fists of War

03-02-2009, 11:56

I always ID edge bows when they (frequently) drop in CS, thought I might have found a keeper for a level 19 lld bowa:

20-43 damage (104% ed, +8 min, 46 AR, 1 cold damage)

Damage is pretty low, but it's got a low stat requirement and cold damage as well...doesn't seem like there are many other options for a bowazon of this level.

Lorg

04-02-2009, 13:16

fledgeling

04-02-2009, 18:02

I actually made a LLD zon using death's + boneflesh + goblins, the unique 50ias bow and howltusk - the idea was to keep enemies knocked back.
Unfortunately I never tested it; I think I still have this char

Fists of War

05-02-2009, 07:50

Its too low dmg + too slow to be of any use mate...
Bow zons don't work on that level :)
Damn, I had a feeling it was too low. I don't really want to go level 29 though, I'll have do deal with those pesky chargers :P.

TraderScope

10-02-2009, 06:17

Lorg

10-02-2009, 09:00

I imbued this:

Martel req. lvl 25, req. STR 119

150dmg (52ed)
+1 barb
+47 AR
adds 3-7 cold dmg.
-30Req

Too bad for low ED..
Would a LLD Charger/someone use this?
I guess it's a decent weapon for starting baba at least :)
Thanks.

Nah even bonesnap has more dmg ( and lower reqs) some resistances... And what comes for starting barbs, even they are served better via snap as it has nice crush... -> imo you should charsi

WarlockCC

10-02-2009, 09:56

Nah even bonesnap has more dmg ( and lower reqs) some resistances... And what comes for starting barbs, even they are served better via snap as it has nice crush... -> imo you should charsi
Elvis had it right all those years ago : "Return to sender"
Charsi being that sender in case of a imbue. :)

Rotta

10-02-2009, 18:19

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9784/28715474rf4.jpg

Ummh... Good? Decent? Bad?
Too high lvl req?

Lorg

11-02-2009, 08:46

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9784/28715474rf4.jpg

Ummh... Good? Decent? Bad?
Too high lvl req?

Deacent one. Ar is very low thought.... But its certainly worth of making a 30 lv barb... With that you will kill most 30 barbs out there...

Bottom line: I need more 30 lv opponents on eu soft ladder -> go make one!

TraderScope

11-02-2009, 13:43

Nah even bonesnap has more dmg ( and lower reqs) some resistances... And what comes for starting barbs, even they are served better via snap as it has nice crush... -> imo you should charsi

Ofc.. I always seem to forget something when I try to value items for LLD use. Bone*snap*.

TraderScope

12-02-2009, 23:54

Perfect Def Ornate -30 Req. for lv. 26
http://i44.tinypic.com/2guefrl.jpg

Any thoughts?

Lorg

13-02-2009, 09:04

Perfect Def Ornate -30 Req. for lv. 26
http://i44.tinypic.com/2guefrl.jpg

Any thoughts?

What char would use that? I mean 30 lv lld barbs are the only class that i have seen using -30 req nates (at least i do, quite frankly have not seen any other 30 lv bvb with def build this ladder) And mine is 95 ed 7x life -30 req... Lots better the the one u found. Althought its lv req 27...

TraderScope

13-02-2009, 09:22

Hmm.. I must have mislooked the charts as I thought that 65ed was maximium for that lvl :/ And you are right, it also misses on life, ah well.. Charsi might be pleased at least, again.

fledgeling

13-02-2009, 17:54

you could try putting it on a smiter; but Im not really sure if a perfect silk (514 def) or gs (410??) wouldnt be better

TraderScope

19-02-2009, 16:52

Fists of War

19-02-2009, 22:08

Here's another one I am asking if this would be of use for a LLD smiter/hammerdin paladin?

http://i43.tinypic.com/vdz705.jpg

Also found a Twin Axe:
req. lvl 26
25-73 (94ed)
+162 AR
+30IAS
adds 8-12 Fire dmg
adds 3-13 cold dmg
As long as that shield hits 75% block, then yes, that would be a great smiter shield. Barbed shield and almost perfect defence = sexy.

bthere

25-02-2009, 08:46

OK, so I have a whole bunch of pre-patch items on a Classic mule (EastSC). None of 'em are godly, but some are interesting (the 50% gull for example) and some would seem ideal for ultra-LLD.

Pre-patch, of course, the items have no character level requirements, so you can wear the tarn, SOJs and iron jang bong at level 1. You could even wear the heavenly at clvl 1 if you could get 41 strength.

Are these things worth anything, or are they just curiosities?

WarlockCC

25-02-2009, 09:38

I have some on Europe and I prefer to hold on to them, as they are very rare indeed.
They can be worth quite a bit to the right person, though if you ever decide to make a build yourself which can use them, there is no way for you to get them again.
My advice would be to keep them, as I see little point in trading something you cannot find anymore for something you can still find.

If there are interested parties, they are likely to contact you trough PM.

On a sidenote, don't export them to LoD, since they will be given a levelreq, making them utterly useless. A friend of mine tested that with a questionable SoJ, which indeed got a req.

fledgeling

26-02-2009, 01:52

They are worth much more than you probably imagine; at least few LADDER sojs each; but Id say much more (some people I know offer useless NL items for 5000 FG - I wonnder if anyone has actually paid it even once..).

TraderScope

27-02-2009, 02:21

I'm thinking if a sorc lv. 22+ with Nova or Chain Lightning would be a vialbe (and fun) build for LLD. I found this staff yesterday (too bad not +3) and I could use it with my nova sorc too (check the thread about Mf Static/nova sorc for more info)..

http://i42.tinypic.com/2ey7ryu.jpg

Applekid

02-03-2009, 22:12

HegemonKhan

03-03-2009, 00:43

I've been working very dilligently lately to create a knife-wielding zealer. I have a 29-60 damage Cinquedeas with 30ias and about 200AR-- decent starting mods. The dilemma is that I am debating what's the best cooperative skill to use.

I started with holy freeze, only because I hate it and it is annoying as HELL in duels, so I figured, "Hell, why not make one?" But then I realized I can put 4 skill points in Zeal, max Holy Freeze, and then be utterly confused about whether to put the remaining skill points into Sacrifice (Zeal synergy), or Resist Cold (Holy Freeze synergy).

Any suggestions? Alternate skill choices? Things I may not have thought of? I don't want to use Holy Shock, that's really the only limitation...

for holy freeze:

well it seems you're debating whether to go full cold damage or cold damage + phys damage. as to which is better, no idea. probably for pvp (if this is what you're doing)....you'd probably want cold + phys damage, as it's not that hard to stack resists for a single elem damage.

however, it seems kinda silly to use a dagger, when (*I think*) u can get the same attack speed, more range, more damage, and probably about the same stat reqs or even less with another weapon type/choice. but i could be wrong. oh wait this is LLD...maybe other better weapons have too high a clvl req.

Applekid

03-03-2009, 05:38

however, it seems kinda silly to use a dagger, when (*I think*) u can get the same attack speed, more range, more damage, and probably about the same stat reqs or even less with another weapon type/choice. but i could be wrong. oh wait this is LLD...maybe other better weapons have too high a clvl req.

Yes, I could, like a dimensional blade, battle sword, ancient sword, rune sword, battle hammer, etc. I can get much higher damage with a sword or hammer too. Last ladder I had a 90 damage dimensional blade with 30ias, AR and cold damage. . . but I think knives are sexy :] Moreover, Cinquedeas are even sexier than regular knives :] I'm sorta counting on the idea that it'll be underestimated, and I will therefore win every duel lol.

I'm afraid you're right about the phys + elemental, and that was my first thought. . . . Any other ideas?

HegemonKhan

03-03-2009, 10:04

well, i don't know game well enough for LLD, requires too much skill/knowledge/precision with stats, skills, gear for me.

Fists of War

03-03-2009, 10:25

I've been working very dilligently lately to create a knife-wielding zealer. I have a 29-60 damage Cinquedeas with 30ias and about 200AR-- decent starting mods. The dilemma is that I am debating what's the best cooperative skill to use.

I started with holy freeze, only because I hate it and it is annoying as HELL in duels, so I figured, "Hell, why not make one?" But then I realized I can put 4 skill points in Zeal, max Holy Freeze, and then be utterly confused about whether to put the remaining skill points into Sacrifice (Zeal synergy), or Resist Cold (Holy Freeze synergy).

Any suggestions? Alternate skill choices? Things I may not have thought of? I don't want to use Holy Shock, that's really the only limitation...
First thing to ask is...what level are you going for?

I'd go for level 1 Holy Freeze, as it's the slow that's it's best asset and not the cold damage (at least at a low level). You might want more in Zeal for AR. If not, then I'd split points in between sacrifice and holy freeze. More holy freeze damage would be pretty useless vs 75 cold rez, but would be better vs random characters that think they can duel but actually can't.

FireMarshal

09-03-2009, 03:35

This flail any good for lld? Probably not, but it has some decent mods I suppose for a level 10 Zealer or something.

Flail
lvl 10 req
1-38
61ed
10% IAS
14ar
+1 cold damage
4% LL
8% FR

Fists of War

09-03-2009, 08:18

This flail any good for lld? Probably not, but it has some decent mods I suppose for a level 10 Zealer or something.

Flail
lvl 10 req
1-38
61ed
10% IAS
14ar
+1 cold damage
4% LL
8% FR
No zeal at level 10, and a warhammer is vastly superior at level 12.

deichsela

10-03-2009, 04:14

Is this worth putting on an amazon?

Siege Crossbow
lvl25
80 str, 70 dex
39 to 88 damage (+96%, +6 to max)
Adds 9-20 fire damage
Adds 1-8 lightning damage
+85 Attack Rating

TraderScope

10-03-2009, 06:03

Is this worth putting on an amazon?

Siege Crossbow
lvl25
80 str, 70 dex
39 to 88 damage (+96%, +6 to max)
Adds 9-20 fire damage
Adds 1-8 lightning damage
+85 Attack Rating

Dunno, a bit low damage with no -reqs or IAS.
I had an idea that LLD bow would have to be imba to be useful.

FireMarshal

10-03-2009, 06:54

Yes, considering you can have up to 150ed, and up to +20 max. I'd ditch it.

Are Siege Crossbows used in LLD? I am not too familiar with LLD Zons.

Fists of War

10-03-2009, 07:50

It's more about knockback (as well as slow and cold damage) that makes lld zons (and even hld zons) useful. Therefore IAS is really really useful, along with cold damage on your bow/crossbow.

AFAIK crossbows are fairly slow compared to most bows anyway, so I'm not sure if they'd be good at all.

Lorg

10-03-2009, 08:46

Is this worth putting on an amazon?

Siege Crossbow
lvl25
80 str, 70 dex
39 to 88 damage (+96%, +6 to max)
Adds 9-20 fire damage
Adds 1-8 lightning damage
+85 Attack Rating

NOt worth it. Too low dmg and pretty slow :)

FireMarshal

11-03-2009, 05:06

Lorg

11-03-2009, 08:44

Well. Lookie what I just found. I'm sure there is better, but I thought it is pretty decent!

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t89/Fire_Marshal/D2/FiendCrusher.jpg

War Hammer
lvl 15
35-59
88ed
+5max
41ar
1-2 fire damage
1-2 cold damage

Its usable ofcourse before you find better :)
Sculpen's list is so handy that even that its stickied i feel compelled to copy/paste it here. Very easy to evaluate warhammer vs this table!

Req'd Level.........ED%........Min-Max......IAS
9......................70...........4-7
10....................80...........4-10
13....................90...........4-10
14....................90...........4-14
15....................105.........4-14
17....................105.........4-14...........20
18....................105.........8-20
19....................130.........8-20
24....................150.........8-20
26....................150.........8-20...........30

So if you're talking about a level 19 Pike for example, the highest possible damage is 40-164. This is nearly impossible, as it requires 3 perfect damage mods, AND perfect min-max mods. Heres a short list of some popular weapons in popular levels.

War Hammer- 12: 38-62 15: 42-73 19: 51-86

TraderScope

11-03-2009, 15:09

Well. Lookie what I just found. I'm sure there is better, but I thought it is pretty decent!

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t89/Fire_Marshal/D2/FiendCrusher.jpg

War Hammer
lvl 15
35-59
88ed
+5max
41ar
1-2 fire damage
1-2 cold damage

The average of that weapon = 47 (without taking into consideration the elemental dmg on it).

Using Sculpen's original "pointing" system we get some statistics on that find:

The max. average of that lvl = WH 57.
Your average 47/57 (max average) = 82% or B.
I would say it's a decent, slightly above average WH for that lvl.

HegemonKhan

17-03-2009, 14:41

about zons and xbows (crossbows): never forget, the cho ko no. i think it has the fastest speed, even more than a double bow, and does good damage too.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey i jsut started my first LLD character/build and i went with the healer smiter that warlock and a few others used/made.

if any of u (warlock or the others) could offer advice i'd apreciate it:

clvl 9 (NOT going higher)

(still working on geting all the character bonus quests in nm, hell. got norm done)

stats:

57 str. 33 ? vit at the momement. 150 life. 80 mana.

skills:

1 smite. max into prayer (that is possible to put into it at clvl 9). 1 pt thorns (for any powerful melee or high level melee wanting/trying to pk me. Is 1 pt enough or would i need more for it to kill other players. i know it depends on the damage they do, but ignoring that is slvl 1 enough or not?). 1 pt into cold resist. 2 pts into fire resist.

question:

should i add more to thorns (more returned damage to attacker), cold/fire resists (more resists), or smite (more stun length) ?? which would be best use of the remaining sk pts from quests i've yet to do ??

gear:

full sigon, gnasher, nagel rings, civerb amulet. i have 2 socket spiked shields in reserve (though still working on getting the flawed gems/skulls=clvl 5 req. can't use standard gems/skulls because they are clvl 12 req.)

WarlockCC

17-03-2009, 19:46

At level 9 you will not have access to cleansing, which you need for the actual healing. Prayer as a healing aura has almost no effect and will drain your mana in seconds. Without mana, you can't smite and you're a sitting duck.
Thorns effects will not be noticed by any LLD. You could put 20 points into it and it still would hardly scratch other players.

Fists of War

17-03-2009, 22:37

But...the healing from say, a level 1 prayer is the same as the healing from a level 1 prayer with cleansing on, right? Then how does it have no effect?

Although I do agree that level 12 is much much better, you can wear angelics and cleansing is much better in terms of mana usage. Charge, even with a crap weapon is a nice way to finish people off.

EDIT: Although thorns won't do much in PvP, as warlock says, something that does work is ATD. Skulls in a shield can get pretty godly, especially going up against zealers and the like.

HegemonKhan

18-03-2009, 00:19

i wanted to do clvl 9, i read yours posts about clvl 12 or higher, and know that they are much better (better/more damage reduction gear and life regen gear and lightning resist skill is available for pts), but i intentionally wanted to do the lowest LLD possible, which is clvl 9.

if the mana consumption by using prayer active is the only concern, it is NOT a concern for me, as there's these mana pots i can chug :D

if there is indeed a difference with cleansing/meditation active compared to prayer, than please yes, inform us of this, since i never knew there was a difference (besides with cleansing/meditation active, u don't get the mana drain) either like fistsofwar.

the thorns is NOT for other LLD users (duh, since LLD's don't do much damage. but however, my 1 pt thorns IS FOR high damage deal'ers even at LLD levels like charge or whatever skill, but even more so for if some high level, epsecially a ww barb...wants to *loser* pk a level 9). at least we both will die (hopefully anyways), which is my reason for 1 pt into thorns. i just hope 1 pt is enough because i really have no interest in putting more pts into thorns, when there's more important skills to me like resist auras or smite).

yes, the returned damage is a bit of a "cheat or BM=bad manners", but hey i'm only clvl 9 dueling higher levels, i have a meritable justification for cheating a bit and using skulls in shields and other such gear that gives returned damage (full sigs give like 37 damage returned and 7 damage reduction, i think). however, for clvl 9, the full sigs (which means sig shield) is probably better than losing it's full set bonuses and wearing a 2 socket spiked shield instead with whatever 2 flawed gems/skulls.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
this is an incredibly powerful build, btw, really awesome !!!!

i've only duel'ed noobs though, since the LLD battles on west are indeed extinct as far as i can tell. though because of this, i've dueled people around clvl 30 (some even over it, but i know not to duel a ww barb, lol) and actually won against them, though most were zeal'er paladins, and i hadn't dueled many types yet, especially sorcs, since there's not too many LLD sorcs out there, at least haven't found any yet.

the sig shield is really weak for smite damage, but eventually the open wounds and crushing blow (from gnasher) kills them, and because of the build i usually constantly have full health (most duels i've done, no one could even lower my life), so i can wait it out for them to eventually die.

i did a really funny duel!!!

i duel'ed some one else who had prayer on, and neither of us could reduce damage of each other. an endless duel (excluding mana pot limitation). it was funny. we kept smacking each other and niether of us loss life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
not to be rude, but my question hasn't been answered:

where should my remaining skill pts (from nm and hell quests) go ??

*i can NOT put any more sk pts into prayer (which would be best, if i could), since i'm at the max for my clvl.

*i'm highly against more into thorns because of the two other better options

*i'm NOT wasting 2 pts into might (1 sk pt) and holy fire (1 sk pt). holy fire seems pointless especially when i don't have charge to catch them anyways and holy fire only has range 4 at slvl 1, which isn't very far. might seems pointless too, since sig shield only does like 1-5 smite damage, 30% of 1-5 damage isn't even +1 damage, if it weren't for the rounding or hard code of at least 1 pt damage.

option 1:

resist fire or resist cold or balance of the two

option 2:

smite, (for more stun length. the % damage increase is pointless with 1-5 smite damage sig shield, though)

it seems that my low stun length allowed the charger that i dueled to get away and charge me for a kill, my only loss so far, and i'm wondering if this is true?

if i put more pts into smite for longer stun length would this help me against that same charger or not ?

Applekid

08-05-2009, 04:23

People's perception of the US West LLD scene contributes a great deal to the lack of LLD present there.

LLD'ers, stop underestimating LLD in US West; your words are more powerful than you realize! I personally have three accounts of well-abled LLD (ranging everywhere from clvl 9-29), and I know that my three brothers also have a good amount of capable LLD as well. I think if LLD games were a little more prominent and attended, West could have a thriving LLD scene in no time, flat. Nevertheless, the perception that US West is devoid of LLD causes people to avoid LLD in West-- it's a self-perpetuating curse I hypothesize is propelled by the lack of the big boys that used to dominate the US West scene: Sculpy, Seth, Chris, Q, etc. I'm still here, and keepin' it extremely real! Someone join me! If you want to start even a level 9 in Classic US West, I will personally rush and help gear you lol (resources and time permitting).

I think that if more people actually paid attention to West and TRIED to LLD there, it would be a lot more fruitful than just avoiding it altogether. I teach newbs/noobs/neauxbs/nubs/neubs/neiubs to LLD all the time, and they eat it up. I know Aerodynamics/Psalms/New.Testament is still kickin with LLD, and so am I, and my brothers, and lots of other capable duelers, and we all inspire up-and-comers!

Let's get something going instead of being apathetic about it!

In my frustrated, albeit passionate state, I extend this offer: If you want to learn and engage in LLD in US West, even, or especially, if you don't know how, I will personally train you, if you catch me online. My accounts are "Apple_Kid," "Saucy_Sauce," "Pencil.Eraser," and "Fourside." (with the period included). My main LLD are Nega_REVLVED (29), Mini_MetalII (19), eB_RowdyMouse (12), eB_MissVenus (27), eB_Frank (26), eB_DeepDarkness (21), and eB_MachDelivery (29). My LLD are very diverse, eclectic, and deadly If you need tips, I am more than happy to help. This FAQ will also serve as a Q&A thread for LLD in US West. West is Best!! (Or soon to be)

I hope to see a more living and thriving LLD scene in US West, and pray that it is galvanized by this thread. Post, post, post!

WarlockCC

08-05-2009, 09:37

You could also consider checking out other realms. If you really want to play LLD, you could play out, rather then trying to get people to your home field, visit people in theirs. :)

Applekid

08-05-2009, 20:05

You could also consider checking out other realms. If you really want to play LLD, you could play out, rather then trying to get people to your home field, visit people in theirs. :)

That would be propagating the very idea I'm trying to combat. . . . I want to develop a scene for US West, because there needs to be one there. I could traverse realms just to peep the scene and engage in LLD, but that would be simply tangent the objective I'm trying to achieve. A sidebar, a project ;)