Best tvt trapper build?

[Moritz]

Hey,


I lately started playing a lot of tvts and I don't have a lot of experience yet (I focused on 1v1s until now because I always disliked the random spamming in tvts and the fct that you cant concentrate on single opponents as much as in 1v1s because you will be interupted while executing your techniques etc).
I tried a shell build first but I noticed fast that c/c is more solid in tvts against most team builds so I ditched it again.

Right now I made my hybrid ww/ls tvtable by using 2 switches:
On slot one I use c/c 65fc max dr faded 27fhr 11k traps 9frame traps with chaos/fury etc.
On slot two I use w/s 102/86 faded 9.5k traps 70% block 9frame traps.

This is good and bad. My idea was to use w/s against bow based teams (there are plenty on euro) at start and also in situations where I get rushed by a barb or so and to switch to c/c when the sitation allows for it.
However I feel that especially for tvts, where one of the main tasks of a trapper is simple fhr locking single opponents to allow your team mates to stomp fast, 102fcr is very useful.
Further, the difference between 65fcr and 102fcr on sins is very significant, also when you try to escape from several opponents who are rushing you.
I feel like 102fc c/c would be cooler mainly in the early game where I will have to cope with different kinds of magic/elemental and physical damage sources to have the best balance of offensive and defensive power.

So, what are your experiences with trappers in team duels?


I will not be able to get a perm 08 valk and I will not use unperms, so if I built a 102fc c/c trapper it would probably look like this:
- 2/3/2 10+ias GT (socketing depends on base ias. either ias/res or something else as long as I reach max traplaying with fade)
- chaos GT 3ls (I like whirling for safe passive movement with active clawblock)
- eni
- trangs
- arach
- 10fc rings *2 with good adds
- Griff cham/ber (right now I dont know yet whether cbf is really needed)
- 2/17 fc ammy @
- I'm not sure about boots. something with fhr and resists I guess
- drop restpoints into fade until max DR.


I recorded some fun tvts a few days ago where I used my current setup with both c/c and w/s (as depicted above).

Please watch and take care of when I switch slots and tell me whether you find it useful or not (also take into account that I can use WW as offensive skill at the moment which is cool at times) and compare it with your own experiences with tvt trappers.
[The duels shown in the video are kinda random duels without vent/TS and include people I've never seen before so some parts are rather uncoordinated. Also the barb of my team sucks balls but w/e ... that's not the question now ^_^]

link to vid: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-V0l_AHwjmw


Thanks for input in advance.



PS: The build we are planning to use later for 'serious' team dueling is dru, nec, trapper, barb if this info helps you.

[MysticDragon]

Yeah. The majority of west nl trappers are 102 C/C. Block doesn't seem to help that much in tpk with amp on. Are the tpks Nightmare or Hell? Don't jump the other team without teammates and erm I can tell you what Tienje uses on his trapper. It's 102 C/C with a Hoto Spirit switch for 174 to get the last slippery Nec. You probably shouldn't use WW that much. The team would be better off with you MB the guys so they can jump. WW is a lot less effective with Shout and it's not damaging like a Barb whirl is. Staying with the team is very important. The lone dueler is the one that gets picked off fast. Oh and don't use Block Necs in tpk. The Barb will cut through you with amp and you end up with less life / small Amp radius. Just had to add that. :\

By the way, is Prison allowed?

[TienJe]

those tvt's made a cringe a little :wink3:

p.s. 102 fcr is essential, so build around that. try and get 1 in wof to let you stun more than 1 player at a time. it'll make a huge difference to your team when your trapper can multi-task, but it seems like you'll have to train your teammates a little bit.

[harryhaller]

which fhr goal you are aiming for?

imo dancers are best for that.

cnbf is needed imo, since you cant avoid to get frozen since someone on the opponent team will have colddmg or sth, and its damn annoying imo cause ur run sucks too then.
so i would plan with cham in griff.
but then u got a serious dr problem :(

[TienJe]

in tpks, cbf isn't that important if you're using a fade build. you won't be running/whirling much (if at all), so the cold will only affect your trap laying speed. there aren't many cold damage sources in tvt arena, and fade helps to reduce the cold length anyway. you'll just have to try and see if you can get along fine without it.

you should add a lo griffons to your considerations as well. usually its the opposing trapper that will cause you the greatest pain. when a physical character jumps you, the 8% dr wont save you (especially with amp), whereas the lo will help you last much longer in traps.

[Moritz]

Thanks for input. Cooldown of cold dmg from ravens etc is very short, check when I get hit by bowie in the video. blizzard of ice blast might last a bit longer, duno.

I was wwing so much because my team was kind of .. passive ^_^ and I just couldnt wait for them. Like I said it were kinda random duels and uncoordinated.

Prison is I think not allowed, I dont know why people cry about it but that's just the way it is lol

I do have 1 point in wof of course but without any barb or dru stomping I prefered LS to deal some damage.


Sooooo .. you think 102fc c/c is essential in team duels? I think 48 fhr would be nice although I will have to sacrifice other stuff for it since I cant use valk.
Which items would you exactly use?

[harryhaller]

Sooooo .. you think 102fc c/c is essential in team duels? I think 48 fhr would be nice although I will have to sacrifice other stuff for it since I cant use valk.
Which items would you exactly use?


essential? no (at least not for europe)

its a goodie and alot more fun but not essential imo.

I personally dislike the 65fc, you are used to it due to your hyb.

A Decent 102fc good fhr high dr build seems pretty hard.

i think test would help to see if you can sacrifice the cham for a ber or other way round.

€:
If i swap my ghost shell setup for a cc i use 65fc 48fhr 41dr (49dr also possible with 2. circ, but lower life/mana)

[TienJe]

Thanks for input. Cooldown of cold dmg from ravens etc is very short, check when I get hit by bowie in the video. blizzard of ice blast might last a bit longer, duno.

I was wwing so much because my team was kind of .. passive ^_^ and I just couldnt wait for them. Like I said it were kinda random duels and uncoordinated.

Prison is I think not allowed, I dont know why people cry about it but that's just the way it is lol

I do have 1 point in wof of course but without any barb or dru stomping I prefered LS to deal some damage.


Sooooo .. you think 102fc c/c is essential in team duels? I think 48 fhr would be nice although I will have to sacrifice other stuff for it since I cant use valk.
Which items would you exactly use?
with the item restrictions you have, i'd probably stick with the setup you listed, except i'd replace your chaos with a bartucs (30 fhr helps a ton as well). you'll never really need to have WW; it'll be better for you just to MB the attacker and reverse the stun (claw block will let you do that pretty often), or wsg out of trouble. simply whirling away won't save you in a team environment like it does in 1v1, especially because faded whirl is slow. it may save you from a druid in the occasional 1v1 out in open space, but in any of other situations, MB/WSG will be a better choice.

you're going to build a pure trapper for tvt's right?

EDIT: i wasn't implying you should replace the LS outright with wof, just use it when you are attempting to stun. when you're pushing and trying to create openings, you'll almost always want to be using LS. you'll never want more than 2 wof firing at any one time anyway.

[Moritz]

with the item restrictions you have, i'd probably stick with the setup you listed, except i'd replace your chaos with a bartucs (30 fhr helps a ton as well). you'll never really need to have WW; it'll be better for you just to MB the attacker and reverse the stun (claw block will let you do that pretty often), or wsg out of trouble. simply whirling away won't save you in a team environment like it does in 1v1, especially because faded whirl is slow. it may save you from a druid in the occasional 1v1 out in open space, but in any of other situations, MB/WSG will be a better choice.

you're going to build a pure trapper for tvt's right?

oh yeah, tucs seem not too shabby =]


ERRRR well since I tested like every possible sin build for 1v1s and always found my current hybrid to be most versatile and most effective, I am looking for a build that is tvt-only, yes.

what about fire blast? has anyone found it viable as damage dealer and stunner in tvts?

I could also build with 2*6 fade claws on switch and drop the remaining points into mindblast for increased stun dura, mb dmg and higher SM-mindblast-frequency while porting around.

[harryhaller]

oh yeah, tucs seem not too shabby =]


ERRRR well since I tested like every possible sin build for 1v1s and always found my current hybrid to be most versatile and most effective, I am looking for a build that is tvt-only, yes.

then u dont have to change many imo.
Trapsks for shadows ofc, for high dmg.

maybe a 2. 5ls 14fhr 30res claw instead of chaos.

and the rest is fine imo if u stay @ 65fc.
and u can use bb u baddie :P

€: fb isnt that useful in tvts, since mostly u cant stay stunlocking ur enemy for a long time, or you will get jumped.
either your team comes and crushes the one in stun fast or he has to escape, otherwise u risk your own life.

[MysticDragon]

Fire Blast is only useful when it comes down to a 1v1 situation. MB is better in almost all cases.

[Moritz]

then u dont have to change many imo.
Trapsks for shadows ofc, for high dmg.

maybe a 2. 5ls 14fhr 30res claw instead of chaos.

and the rest is fine imo if u stay @ 65fc.
and u can use bb u baddie :P


well, the whole topic is actually about 65fc or 102fc in tvts ^_^

if I wanted 65fc I would stick with my current sin

[TienJe]

oh yeah, tucs seem not too shabby =]


ERRRR well since I tested like every possible sin build for 1v1s and always found my current hybrid to be most versatile and most effective, I am looking for a build that is tvt-only, yes.
ah ok. just wanted to make sure. the extra points you get into MB make a huge difference.

i wouldn't worry too much about DR. a lot of druids on west just forgo trying to get max DR because amp basically negates it, and use rare pelts to pump their damage instead.

in response to harry, i think 102 c/c is absolutely essential for tvt. 102 fcr is pretty necessary in its own right for keeping up with the rest of your team and stunning, and claw block is hands-down the best way to increase survivability in a team duel. claw block happens at a very quick framerate, and will operate sort of opposite of the zons dodges; whenever you trigger a clawblock, you'll have a greater chance of escaping the barrage.

p.s. moritz, in tvt, you might finally be able to use c/i screen trapping effectively =p

p.p.s. fireblast is a great way to stun if you already right on the target. fire blast fires at 9frames if you're built correctly, which is equivalent to casting mb at 174 fcr. it's not worth it for stun if you have to CL to get there or if you already have a few traps firing, but if you are already on top in an open space, theres no better skill for stunning. just make sure you remember to cast mb once in a while to keep up the swirly.

[MysticDragon]

ah ok. just wanted to make sure. the extra points you get into MB make a huge difference.

i wouldn't worry too much about DR. a lot of druids on west just forgo trying to get max DR because amp basically negates it, and use rare pelts to pump their damage instead.

in response to harry, i think 102 c/c is absolutely essential for tvt. 102 fcr is pretty necessary in its own right for keeping up with the rest of your team and stunning, and claw block is hands-down the best way to increase survivability in a team duel. claw block happens at a very quick framerate, and will operate sort of opposite of the zons dodges; whenever you trigger a clawblock, you'll have a greater chance of escaping the barrage.

p.s. moritz, in tvt, you might finally be able to use c/i screen trapping effectively =p

Was that what you were doing last night? :O

[harryhaller]

well, the whole topic is actually about 65fc or 102fc in tvts ^_^

if I wanted 65fc I would stick with my current sin

yes but i said that a decent build with 102fc 4x dr 48fhr is kinda impossible xD

lets see:
102fc fixes alot of items from the start:
- griff
- arach
- 2fc rings with str/life/mana/res
- TO's
- Amu 17fc, u got a nice one there

so 1. claw is a 5ls claw with baseias and 30/30 in it so your ias is done.
2. claw i would use also a 5ls instead of chaos with fhr/res
boots dancers imo or some prelod boots with 20fhr + 1fhr skiller to get 48fhr.

Remains the dr problem.
Ber griff + eni = 16
missing 24 at least.
so precast fade seems to be a must. u got shadows sks in chest anyway, dont know how much space is left in ur stash for extra precast stuff.

but i would prefer the cnbf, but i never really tested to tvt without it, but to help here i will try today and so on to play tvts without raven, lets see how it works.^^

taking enuff precast then it would work imo.
what u think?

[Moritz]

haha c/i trapping >>>>>>> ^_^


but where is clawblocking fast!? it's 5 frames man. imho the main reason why w/s is better against barbs or zons is the 3frame block instead of 5, more than the 15%+- more chance to block.

regarding DR ... since fade reduces curse dura immensely I thought high DR was still very good. amp will wear off within 10 secs or so (less maybe? dont know).


Which options for 2nd slot do you guys favor? I could go for 174fc w/s noblock, +12 fade or something else.
4*lo shield or so is no choice since 85% max res is the GM cap on eunl.


/chris: who says that I cant push fade with my remaining points? bartucs as second claw seems ok too and provides 30fhr.

Ps: you should know me well enough to know I would never in my life prebuff

[TienJe]

Was that what you were doing last night? :O
yea it was

[harryhaller]

Ps: you should know me well enough to know I would never in my life prebuff

ah yeah forgot about freeskills on a rebuild :prop:

sry xD

[TienJe]

haha c/i trapping >>>>>>> ^_^


but where is clawblocking fast!? it's 5 frames man. imho the main reason why w/s is better against barbs or zons is the 3frame block instead of 5, more than the 15%+- more chance to block.

regarding DR ... since fade reduces curse dura immensely I thought high DR was still very good. amp will wear off within 10 secs or so (less maybe? dont know).


Which options for 2nd slot do you guys favor? I could go for 174fc w/s noblock, +12 fade or something else.
4*lo shield or so is no choice since 85% max res is the GM cap on eunl.
clawblocking happens at the same speed as 48 fhr recovery, but it saves you from the extra stun a few of the skills have. you can block the leap, which saves you from the double recovery, and it'll save you from KB from a multitude of sources. leap animation is pretty long, but it stuns well because it causes 2x stun. if you block it and eliminate the second stun, its like getting 5 free frames to escape.

p.s. don't pump fade.

[Moritz]

clawblocking happens at the same speed as 48 fhr recovery, but it saves you from the extra stun a few of the skills have. you can block the leap, which saves you from the double recovery, and it'll save you from KB from a multitude of sources.

p.s. don't pump fade.

yeah its equal to 48fhr and youre right about the knockback. still i dont consider 5 frames very fast in ''normal'' (non-kb) situations. but ok youre right.


why not fade? like i said there are quite a few bow based teams and the zons do inflict good damage. assuming I can manage to avoid amp/wait till it wore off, the DR increase seems more important than 10 points more in mindblast, or not?
with lvl1 fade i will have like ... 2x-35% DR without 12 fade claws on switch, roughly.


so .. what are youre choices for 2nd switch?

[TienJe]

yeah its equal to 48fhr and youre right about the knockback. still i dont consider 5 frames very fast in ''normal'' (non-kb) situations. but ok youre right.


why not fade? like i said there are quite a few bow based teams and the zons do inflict good damage. assuming I can manage to avoid amp/wait till it wore off, the DR increase seems more important than 10 points more in mindblast, or not?
with lvl1 fade i will have like ... 2x-35% DR without 12 fade claws on switch, roughly.


so .. what are youre choices for 2nd switch?
you'll get reamped pretty often. i'm sure most teams will tell the necro to keep casting amp if the opposing sin has fade. tbh, the zon won't be focusing her fire on you; its the bvc/druid that will be attracting most of the attention as you jump. as soon as one member of your team reaches the zon, you'll instantly see the arrows stop coming in your direction. you'll mostly have to watch out for the bvc and the necro.

i'm not trying to say that DR isn't useful, but the increase in stun duration and shadow MB frequency is much more beneficial imo. shadow mb helps A LOT.

as for the second switch, i think hoto/spirit 174 switch is the best bet. you'll also get a +5 buff to fade/shadow. when you're chasing the last 1-2 members of the opposing team, they'll be ridiculously defensive so it'll be hard to get trap stun on them. with 174, you'll be able to tele very quickly and hold them in place with just MB. if you don't find yourself using it that often, you can try and get the +12 fade claws.

[Moritz]

you'll get reamped pretty often. i'm sure most teams will tell the necro to keep casting amp if the opposing sin has fade. tbh, the zon won't be focusing her fire on you; its the bvc/druid that will be attracting most of the attention as you jump. as soon as one member of your team reaches the zon, you'll instantly see the arrows stop coming in your direction. you'll mostly have to watch out for the bvc and the necro.

i'm not trying to say that DR isn't useful, but the increase in stun duration and shadow MB frequency is much more beneficial imo. shadow mb helps A LOT.

as for the second switch, i think hoto/spirit 174 switch is the best bet. you'll also get a +5 buff to fade/shadow. when you're chasing the last 1-2 members of the opposing team, they'll be ridiculously defensive so it'll be hard to get trap stun on them. with 174, you'll be able to tele very quickly and hold them in place with just MB. if you don't find yourself using it that often, you can try and get the +12 fade claws.


alright. I'll try 174fc switch first but by gaining 1 frame faster cast rate you also lose clawblock which decreases your survivability against such def-spammers (which will mainly be sorcs, necros etc) massively and will possibly cause death due to random hits.

right now I'm more leaning towards the 12 fade switch but it's useless to discuss this probably, I will have to test it ingame.


Thanks for help so far dave and rod and chris.
I'm still waiting for max to respond here and tell me about his personal experiences.

[TienJe]

yea the 174 puts you in pretty significant danger, so only use it when there are few enough opponents around to make sure you won't get caught off-guard. its basically your "we out number them 2-to-1" switch.

[SHAPERLOVER]

c/c 65fcr ~~

[wizAdept]

<.<

As much as I <3 my shell build for 1v1s and 2v2s, I find I have more trouble with 4v4s more than on a c/c build, aside from bowazon/leap teams and whatnot.

Looking through this thread there is very little to say that TienJe has not already said.

At the moment now Im actually configuring a trapper for team duels on d2pk, will probably be going with a 102 c/c max mindblast build with mass replenish as most trappers do it now on d2pk <.< 102 c/c trappers are actually becoming quite the staple now.
65fcr c/c max mindblast trappers using ber valk/ dungos for dr were fairly popular for teams on d2pk a while back, but I think 102 is superior even though it lacks dr, dr just isn't that important as long as you can keep on your toes in teams.

Def use 1 point fireblast in duels to stun and help assist in teammates chasing casters, but I think maxed fireblast for mass damage is really better in 1v1, not as important for teams. Maxed mindblast (or heavy investment into mindblast) is pretty good on team dedicated trappers imo, since AA mindblast spam from shadow is always appreciated by teammates.

As for TienJe's 174 switch idea, its cool to play around with. I havent tried that personally but I could see it working, nice fade boost also, not as nice as claws but 174 could help for chasing opponents when you feel like you dont need block or your real damage.

[Xombie]

imo, the only real choice you have in this matter is whether or not you want to max MB.

102 c/c with 174 switch is kinda essential nowadays

[SHAPERLOVER]

imo, the only real choice you have in this matter is whether or not you want to max MB.

102 c/c with 174 switch is kinda essential nowadays

what for
c/c is better than w/s in 95% tvt games

[Moritz]

what for
c/c is better than w/s in 95% tvt games

read the thread and you will understand whats that 174fc switch for (even if im still unsure whether it would really help so much).

and I am still unsure about fade or MB but that also might be because of my realm. it's the mass GA and multi spam that makes me wanna have more DR and if west/east tvts are in 99% of all cases without zons its np.

[Xombie]

what for
c/c is better than w/s in 95% tvt games

good thing i said 102 c/c with a 174 w/s switch right

i mean, you could keep your cta on switch if you want... lmfao

all you do is like...throw on a hoto

its just for super mindblast

[TienJe]

read the thread and you will understand whats that 174fc switch for (even if im still unsure whether it would really help so much).

and I am still unsure about fade or MB but that also might be because of my realm. it's the mass GA and multi spam that makes me wanna have more DR and if west/east tvts are in 99% of all cases without zons its np.
i don't really think there's a debate about where the points should go. the only choice you have in terms of skill points is whether you want to max MB first or max LS synergies first. if you want a higher fade, then get it by replacing the 174 switch with your buff claws, but don't pump fade.

you just have to get used to the idea that you really aren't there for damage. your primary role will be stunning. while the 85 res cap makes sure you do some damage, your physical teammates will be much more effective for killing, so you should focus on assisting them until you're one of the only ones left. a higher MB really helps to keep the other team in check.

[harryhaller]

i tested the 102fc setup yesterday.
I lent a claw from a mate to get the 45ias onclaw and played with 24dr (cause couldnt get griff ber and 6fade claws so fast).
I was quite satisfied with it though.
Main thing i recognized is that you can leave cnbf aside imo. So a Ber in Griff should be the choice.
Then you can easily reach 4x dr which is also sufficient imo.

bah i wish i could afford this claw and the rest :prop:
would be my new tvt switch config for sure next to my ghostshell