Two SPECIFIC MF Hammerdin builds with spirit vs hoz

[gohsu]

Hi guys, I know there's already been a million threads started on this topic. But I'd like to start a discussion about the individual merits of two very specific hoz and spirit builds, both tailored for one very specific purpose: 8p MF hammerdin. The discussion should be motivated by the price/effectiveness ratio: i.e., no crazy rares that cost 10+ hrs and gives only 1 frame advantage on casting. Here are the two builds that I am proposing, followed by an explanation of why I decided against the 125 FCR builds.

Builds #1: hoz build
This is the standard MF hammderdin build with shako, maras, hoto, enigma, mage, arach, WT, soj, raven, and of course, HoZ.

Build #2: spirit build
Shako, maras, hoto, engima, bloodfist, dungo's, WT, soj, raven, and HoZ

First of all, why don't I consider a 125 FCR HoZ build? Well, to hit 125 FCR with a HoZ, you'd need 45 FCR from your helm, ammy, and rings. So at the very least, you'd have to give up shako, maras, and either your soj or ravenfrost, and replace them with stupidly expensive rares. IMO, if you can afford those rares, you're probably not looking to MF too much anymore. Also, I don't think the benefits of shako, soj, and raven (maras is the only item that can be almost completely "upgraded" by a godly rare) is worth that extra 1 frame of casting for PvM.

Second of all, why don't I consider a 125 FCR spirit build? Well, because even with a perfect spirit, you'd only have 35 + 40(hoto) + 20(mage) + 20(arach) = 115 FCR, 10 short of the 125 BP. So you'd have to give up either shako, maras, raven, or soj to put yourself over that hump. Now, let's go over each of those tradeoffs in detail:

1. Rare circlet for shako: Shako - 74 mf, huge +life and mana, 10% dr. Rare +2 20% FCR circlets: possible FHR (you do not need since spirit gives you so much FHR), possible resistances (do not need resistances from your helm, pallys can max resistances very easily from other slots). Also, I don't even want to think about how much a circlet with +2 pally skills, FCR, all res, FHR, and MF would cost. 10 hr? 15? 20? Not feasible for 95% of bnet.

2. Rare rings for soj and raven: I don't think this should even be a discussion. There are very few possible mods on a FCR ring that would benefit a pally. Namely, resistances, FCR, life, and str/dex. Again, you should have all the resists you need from other items, so the only mods aside from FCR that actually benefit you are the +life and +str/dex. Would I take that over +1 all skills / huge mana, or +20 dex / cold absorb / 40 mana / cannot be frozen? Hell no. This is no contest. BTW I think cannot be frozen is one of the most imba mods in the game, and raven frost is one of the most undervalued rings in the game.

3. Rare ammy for maras: Maras can be almost completely trumped by a godly rare ammy. Of course that ammy would run you about 5-10+ hrs. Too pricey.

Now, let's say that you could afford the rare ammy, what about the mods you're giving up in the belt/glove slots? With mage and arach, you've got the FCR you need for the 125 BP, but the only other useful mod is the +1 skills from arach. Now, if you were to replace mage and arach with bloodist and dungos, You'd have: 20% FHR, +40 vit, +40 life, and 15% DR. Is that tradeoff worth it? It's a tossup, I give the win to the 75 FCR build because I personally can't afford a FCR ammy that gives godly resists.

I've just spent about 1000 words describing the motivation behind the two 75 fcr builds. Now I'd appreciate it if you guys could help me out and compare the individual merits of the 75 fcr HoZ build and the 75 fcr spirit build for 8p MF. Three major themes of discussion should be: the importance of high FHR for PvM, a quantitative analysis on blocking for HoZ vs scared targe, and the importance of the +3 skills that the HoZ build offers. Please keep charm usage in mind when making your point, i.e., 1 pcomb grand charm = 15% FHR or 15% all resists in 3 small charms. Let's also stay away from double modded charms, as that would make the discussion far too complicated and expensive. Finally, think in breakpoints, not just percentages, any FHR from 49%-85% is useless.

p.s. Since hammerdins pretty much tear through everything except souls, one other valid point to make is to replace the dungos with a Tgods. If you'd like to talk about build #2 with that replacement, that's fine. Blood fists are also replaceable in build #2 with Chancies.

[zarirazz]

no love for wizspike?
it'd perfectly fit into the spirit set-up.
you'll lose +3 skills, but gain some mana and resists.. =)

[gohsu]

No love for wizspike here sry -_- I don't think mana is a relevant issue when you have huge +mana from shako, spirit, soj, and hoto. The resists are eh because hoto already has pretty good resists and you'd already be maxed out in hell with no charms. The only benefit I see from wizspike is that it would put you right at 125 FCR with the magefist + arach build. Is the extra frame superior over +2 (3-1 from arach) skills / 40 fhr / 15 dr / 40 life / 40 vit or +2 skills / 40 mf / lit absorb? I guess that's arguable, since wizspike does give you that extra mana and extra resists. I prefer hoto.

Also, the wizspike / arach build is actually not that much cheaper than hoto / dungo or tdogs. Keep in mind that you can get a 33-34% hoto for 1 hr, a decent dungo for 1 um+pul and a tgods for 1pul/um. Cheap arachs usually run for 1 hr + 1-2 ums, so you'd be spending about the same for either build. Of course I'm from west, so these prices could be drastically different elsewhere.

[[exile]]

If you're only aiming for 75%, I've always preferred Spirit.

35% Spirit frees up your gloves and belt for MF gear such as Chance+Goldwrap. I've never had FHR problems in PvM except in rare occasions with the snakes or zombies that use Charge, and even then I can usually just Teleport out. Other players may like to use FHR but I never cared for it in PvM. Besides, Spirit gives a huge chunk to hit the 48% BP all on its own.

Don't get too caught up with +Skills, it won't make or break your Hammerdin. PCombats are expensive and largely unnecessary for PvM.

[gohsu]

Just did a quick number crunch for blocking % difference between the two builds, I'll list out the details of the calculation first for those interested, then summarize the end result. Keep in mind that these calculations were done for a level 90 paladin with enough points in holy shield to get 34% increased blocking.

First, a little rearrangement of the familiar blocking formula so that we are calculating for the amount of dex needed to max block (75%) at level 90:

Dex required = 15 + [True blocking % desired * clvl * 2 ] / [ item block + holy shield ]

Plug this in for hoz:
15 + [75 * 90 * 2 ] / [ 82+34 ] = 131.3 ~ 131
And for sacred targe spirit:
15 + [75 * 90 * 2 ] / [ 60+34 ] = 158.6 ~ 158 (d2 usually rounds down)

158 - 131 = 27

So, at level 90, you would have to spend 27 extra dex to reach max blocking if you were to use a sacred targe spirit. Now, let's look at the stat bonuses on the shields themselves:

Before I start, let me define this term called the "total useful stat gain":

total useful stat gain = the amount of str gain that contributes to you meeting your str reqs + the amount of dex that gives you max block + any points into vitality.

In other words, any strength gain beyond your str reqs are useless, any dex gain beyond max block is useless, and any points into energy is useless (not really useless but mana is not a problem for pallys with either build, especially if you have an insight merc and you use redemption).

HoZ requires 89 str, and adds 20 vit and 20 str. However, the most str intensive item you have with build #1 is probably an archon engima, (str req 105). Also, if you wear war travelers (str req 95), the extra +10 str will put you right at 105. Thus, the "useful" strength you get from HoZ is only the difference between the str req for HoZ and Wt, or 95-89 = 6 points, the other 14 points do absolutely nothing to help a hammerdin. On the other hand, vit points are always useful, so the "total useful stat gain" from HoZ is 26, versus 22 from spirit. So, looking at the shields alone, HoZ has a 26-22+27 (dex required for max block) = 31 net useful stat point margin over spirit. Now, let's look at the variable slots: belt and gloves.


HoZ build:
Magefists: no stats
Arach: no stats

Spirit build:
Bloodfists: +40 life = 40/2 = 20 vit = 20 useful stat points
Verdungos (perf) = +40 vit = 40 useful stat points

Here is the total balance of useful stat points for each build:

HoZ build:
+31 from HoZ, +0 from magefists, +0 from arachnids

Spirit build:
+0 from spirit, +40 from dungos, +20 from blood fist.


---------------All-important conclusion-------------------

total useful stat gain margin for spirit build over HoZ build, both at max block for a level 90 paladin: 40+20-31 = 29

So, just from the blocking perspective alone, it looks like the spirit build is much superior to HoZ build.

[gohsu]

Now, let's talk about Skills vs. FHR, concentrating on just the three variable slots: shield, gloves, and belt:

Build #1:
HoZ: +2 all, +2 combat
Arachnid: +1 all
Total:
+3 to all skills
+2 to combat skills
+0 FHR (13 frames)

Build #2:
Spirit: +2 all, 55 FHR
dungos: 10 FHR
Bloodfist: 30 FHR
Total:
+2 to all skills
+0 to combat skills
+95 to fhr (4 frames, note that 32 and 86 are the 5/4 frame breakpoints)

So, here's the "effective difference" in terms of skills and FHR between the two builds:
HoZ has +1 extra all skills, +2 extra pcomb, while spirit has +86 effective FHR.

Let's ignore the +1 all skills from arach for a second, and look at +2 pcomb vs +86 FHR in terms of charm compesentation

FHR scs (single mod): 1 slot, 5% fhr
pcomb GCs (single mod): 3 slots, +1 pcomb

So, you can compensate for the +2 pcomb on HoZ with 6 inventory spaces, but you would need 90/5 = 18 inv spaces to compensate for the FHR you get from spirit build.


----------all-important conclusion----------

Now, the tradeoff between the HoZ build and the spirit build in terms of skills and FHR can be stated in very precise terms: the HoZ build gives you +1 extra all skills, the spirit build gives you 18 - 6 = 12 extra inventory spaces. I think spirit again is the clear winner here.

[gohsu]

Ok, resistances. This one is pretty simple:

um'd HoZ: +72% all res

spirit sacred targe with +42 base res (anything higher too expensive):
+42 to fire res
+77 to cold/lit/psn resistances

-------------all important conclusion--------------

the resists you get from both builds are pretty similar except for fire res. However, since you technically have 12 extra slots in your inventory (see last post), if you put a 11% fire res sc in 3 slots, that's +33% fire res, which would make the two builds essentially identical. You would still have 12-3 = 8 more effective slots with the spirit build.

[gohsu]

Finally, auxillary mods.

HoZ build:
+5% mana from arachnids, mana regen from magefists

Spirit build:
+crapload of mana from spirit, 15% dr from dungos.

------- kind-of important conclusion -------
Spirit wins. Those 2 mods from HoZ are close to useless, and the 2 mods from spirit are very useful.

[gohsu]

Ok, when I made the original post, I was hoping that this was going to be a lively discussion, but after crunching the numbers and analyzing each build, I realized that this there isn't much to discuss. The spirit build is superior to the HoZ build in every way*, at about the same price or lower. I recommend the spirit build over the standard 75 fcr hoz build for every hammerdin.

*: there is one area where the HoZ build has an obvious advantage: defense, but not by so much that it would make a huge diffference, especially if you level up holy shield.

So, while writing all this crap, I realized that a Tgods / bloodfist sprit-din would be much more useful in practice. I'm not going to crunch all the numbers again, but just thinking about souls makes me cringe, and Tgods > souls. You would only need one 5 fhr small charm to replace the fhr on dungos, and the extra useful stats / DR on dungos pale in comparison to lit absorption. Also, a Tgods is cheaper than dungos.



@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
------The REALLY all-important conclusion------
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

The spirit shield is much superior to HoZ shield for a MF hammerdin. Furthermore, Bloodfists and Thundergod's Vigor are the best replacements for the magefists/arach belt found on a standard HoZ hammerdin build.

Provided that you can't afford 10+hr rares, the mf hammerdin build that I recommend is:

Helm: Shako
Ammy: Maras
Weap: hoto
Armor: archon enigma
Shield: sacred targe spirit (MUST BE 35, 34 is NOT OK)
Rings: soj/dwarf star**/bk ring and raven frost
Gloves: Bloodfists / chancies
Belt: Thundergod's Vigor
Boots: War Travelers
Required charm: One 5fhr sc (only required if you wear bloodfists)
On switch: gull + rhyme.

**: absorb 3 elements instead of 2 at the cost of soj, this is probably my prefered build b/c spirit gives me enough mana. Use bk only if you get a boner from having +1 all skill (very misguided, fire absorb >>>>>>>>>>>> +1 skills) and you can't afford a soj.

Just for the sake of argument -- these are the 5 optional charms that would make you better than a hoz hammerdin in just about every way:
2pcombs, 3 11% fr scs = 9 slots

A HoZ din would need 18 slots of FHR scs just to make up for all the FHR of a spirit din. A HoZ din would also never be able to wear any gloves/belt combo other than mage or trang + arach for fear of losing FCR. A HoZ din would also have a hard time replacing SoJ with dwarf star for unique balrog + lower resist because he would be very low on mana. A HoZ hammerdin not only underperforms a spirit hammerdin in most categories, he is also unadaptive. Spirit all the way.

Thx for reading.

Declaration of conflicts of interest: lulz, none, I do not own any of the aforementioned items, nor do I even have a hammerdin. This is only my own research for the hammerdin that I am planning to build.

[gohsu]

Oops, forgot to mention one thing and I can't edit my posts anymore: the 30% faster blocking on HoZ is useless. You're automatically at 2 frames blocking when you use holy shield, and you need 86% faster blocking to reach the last frame.

[SmittySixTen]

I use:
Head: Shako
Wep: HotO
Shield: Spirit
Armor: Enigma
Boots: Travs
Gloves: Chances (Magefists when I want 125fcr)
Belt: Goldwrap (Arachnid when I want 125fcr)
Ring1: Nagel (Nature's Peace when I run Dkeys)
Ring2: High MF ring with Fire res
Ammy: Random Caster ammy that gets me to my breakpoints

I can go anywhere in the game, Hell Rush, and run Chaos/Baal games with 8 people. The only time I need 125 FCR is for Act 2 in Hell. I currently have ~450mf. I don't really see why there is a huge debate over this...

EDIT: By the way, I use a 45 Res Crown Shield for my spirit. It's pvm... the shield makes no difference at all.

[gohsu]

Wow, 2 mf rings, goldwrap, chance, bad ammy, and terrible def shield. Definately good to hear that you can make an effective MF spirit hammerdin with a lot less than what I've suggested. Just goes to show that practical wisdom beats theorycrafting any day. I've got lots of questions for you :-D

1. You mentioned that you have an alt gear set for "when you need 125 fcr", could you tell us about some of these situations?

2. What kind of charms do you use?

3. What kind of mobs / runs give you the biggest problems?
Specifically: 2a. Is lower resist a problem for you in CS? 2b. Have you ever had trouble with extra fast melee mobs because of your low def?

4. Do you have mana problems because you don't use a soj?

5. Do you need to health pot / rejuv pot / tp regularly in 8 p baal / CS runs?

6. Do you have max block?

7. Have you ever thought about using the wizspike + maras combination for 125 FCR instead of hoto + your fcr ammy?

Thanks bunches.

[SmittySixTen]

Keep in mind that I do use a Torch, Anni, and have CtA on switch (with a Sig Shield for an extra skill). Really, without the CtA it'd be much harder to mf some areas, and almost impossible to do 8 player Hell Choas or Baal runs. It can be done, it'd just be much harder. Just some warning, as I'm typing this I'm realizing I have a lot to say, so it's getting pretty long.

1. You mentioned that you have an alt gear set for "when you need 125 fcr", could you tell us about some of these situations?

Well, like I mentioned, the only time I really need 125 FCR is Act 2 in Hell Difficulty. The reason is because it makes it much easier to get out of Block/Hit Recovery lock in the Claw Viper Temple. However, it does help a lot during the entire rush. Sometimes I use it in Chaos and Baal games where there is a large number of people. Though, if I'm not the one running it I other really do not need 125 FCR, because there's at least one other solid killer to help out.

2. What kind of charms do you use?

Aside from Gheeds, Anni, and Torch, I use whatever res charms I need to get max in hell and then MF charms. I don't have too many, though. I basically have 4 columns full of stuff in my inventory, but that includes a Gheeds, Torch, Anni, Tome of TP, and keys. So really, I don't use many charms.

3. What kind of mobs / runs give you the biggest problems?
Specifically: 2a. Is lower resist a problem for you in CS? 2b. Have you ever had trouble with extra fast melee mobs because of your low def?

Honestly, aside from the Claw Viper Temple, the only spot I run into problems is Venom Lords in Chaos if they have a Conviction aura. The reason is because it's much stronger, I feel, than Lower Res. Also, Lower Res is generally not cast on you with a pack of Venom Lords. There may be one or two, but they don't constantly spit fire at you. They do it once, then move to melee range. With Conviction, you can set up a hammer field, but you still have no choice but to take some of the Inferno blasts.

Lower res can be a pain, but it tends not to cause problems for two reasons. First, Oblivion Knights have really poor AI. No sooner is lower res cast, than another meaningless curse is cast over it. The other reason is, as a Palidin, I have Cleansing and Redemption. If I'm unable to handle the pack for whatever reason, I can just tele away, suck up some dead monsters with Redemption, and then use Cleansing if I really feel the need to remove the curse.

4. Do you have mana problems because you don't use a soj?

No, not at all. Last ladder I actually always wore a SoJ on my hdin. I also had a second SoJ in my stash for when I rushed people. This ladder I decided to try it without them at all. At first I did notice a difference, but with Meditation and Redemption mana isn't really an issue. So really, you can put your SoJs to better use on another character. While we're on the topic of SoJs being missed, I don't miss them for damage purposes either. With BC cast I do just under 10k damage with hammers. Sure, it's lower than most, but it more than gets the job done.

5. Do you need to health pot / rejuv pot / tp regularly in 8 p baal / CS runs?

The short answer is no. I have Redemption. The key to this character is knowing when to switch over to Redemption, Meditation, and Cleansing. That said, my belt is made up of 3 columns of health potions and 1 column of full rejuvenation potions. If my health starts to drop below ~75%, it is too risky to use redemption, and I know the monsters will not be dead before I am, then I chug a life potion. If it drops quickly, unexpectedly, or without warning, then I use a full rejuv. However, when I mf solo (or even up to 3-4 people) I tend to not need to touch my potions.

6. Do you have max block?

Of course. If a Paladin does not have max block then it is not made properly. Shield choice does not matter with a MF Hdin. The minor difference in block % and life in a pvm environment is meaningless.

7. Have you ever thought about using the wizspike + maras combination for 125 FCR instead of hoto + your fcr ammy?

No. I reach max res in hell without needing a Wizzy or Mara's. The combination I use gets me what I need, and putting a Mara's on him would pretty much be the same as putting SoJs on him. Sure, it would help a little bit, but not to the point where it really makes a huge difference. Don't get me wrong, using better items would make the hdin much more powerful, and I do have the items at my disposal to do so. I just don't see the point.

One thing you have to know about me is that I enjoy to mf a lot. I don't mind having to take 5 minutes to open all the seals and kill D instead of 3. I don't mind having to wait a few seconds here and there to gain back mana from Meditation. I don't mind the fact that Venom Lords take three hammers to kill in a solo game instead of two. If you're looking for overall speed and killing power, this guy won't get you there. However, if you are looking for high MF with the ability to get to 125fcr then the build works wonders.

[SocraticB]

gohsu/Smitty: Excellent discussion; very valuable addition to the forums! Kudos to you both!

SocraticB

[squallsquall]

i have a question here.
does 75 fcr and 125 fcr really make a big diff?(for pvm)

[SmittySixTen]

Not really. There are times that it helps, though. I wouldn't dare go into the Claw Viper Temple in Hell without 125 FCR. That extra frame makes all the difference down there.

[zacharias]

I am using the same setup as SmittySixTen. Just no GOldwrap but Tal Rasha Belt. Using a bit more MF charms maybe. Using casterring instead of caster amulet.

I have no problems at all, only when running keys at Nihla and i land in a vipers nest :)

And about the mana stuff.... I am using a merc with insight. HE never dies, only in CS but then i give him a very low damage insight. When running Nihla i do not take him with me, because if the CE of Nihla. Never run into problems with him.

[Bjam]

On an MFdin I prefer the 75% breakpoint too. I like using an even cheaper option: Wizspike + any Spirit. You can socket the Wiz with rare MF jewel or an Ist for even more MF%. I had a Pally with this setup last ladder, with plans to upgrade to HoTo + 35% Spirit, but he was very effective and I would have needed to give up some MF so I never switched. I had max resists with Wiz + 43 resist ST, avg. anni, low torch, and Anya quests. All gear was available to dedicate to MF...and it was. Full-time MF was around 530% IIRC.