View Full Version : Lionheart still rocks
ZappaFan
13-02-2008, 19:30
Looking at all the cool new (to me) runewords that they implemented since I stopped playing way back when, and as far as "bang for the rune" value goes, Lionheart is probably still my favorite melee armor. The only knock against it is no enhanced defence. But other than that it's really hard for me to want to put anything else on my Frenzy barb to wade into hell with... Lionheart combined with an Arreat's Face really save a ton of stat points for Vita...
i concur, one of my fav r/w armors even w/ highones. has always had a special place in my heart. if i find the runes, i make it :)
If it had IAS it would be godly for 'zons...but then it would take higher runes!
Absolutely dude; for the 3 cheapo runes you get a huge life bonus, huge strength bonus and a guaranteed 30 @ res...and the -15% req means you can put it in a higher str armour and still meet the reqs for it!
Hell...after thinking about it, i'm gonna make one! :laugh:
Yes, its still a great armour to use :smiley: I use it on my WW barb in a 2 socked Scarab Husk.. :tongue: Crap defence but really nice mods!
Zelator
Lioneheart is 3 socket.....
Treachery on a Frenzy Barb would seem like a nice one, you are garunteed to get hit alot and 60% rez all from Fade + 30 cold then add the IAS of 45! I just wish they would of done better with those 1.11 armors and give them all more attraction.
Yep, nice mods on Lionheart, but I still like others like Duress, or Stone or even Gloom. Think I made Lionheart one time, I always went Smoke for the extra resists.
In todays game where CB and DS play such a large part in killing speed, Duress is one armor I look at every time if I have a speedy attacker!
If I ever came across a LO I would go Fortitude!
Lionheart is definetly a great choice for those Bowazons and other lower life attackers, but I think you can do more for a Barb although maybe fine on a zerker.
LuckyDwarf
13-02-2008, 20:49
Hell, if I didn't find a great armor for my starter sorc at the beginning of a season, I would use that on her. It gave her the resistances she would usually get from a decent Vipermagi, the stat bonuses she needs later so I don't waste hard points, the life of a "of the whale" armor, and some mana. No skills, but it was a great filler armor until something better came along. Great armor any class can benefit from.
Lucky
ZappaFan
13-02-2008, 21:10
I just couldn't bring myself to put a +2 Assassin skills armor on a Barb ;) Although I hadn't considered 1 in 20 hits received getting a lvl 15 Fade. But I always sort of hate relying on something that only happens by taking a hit. Aren't those % chance when you get hit only for melee attacks you receive? Or is that for any sort of attack, elemental or otherwise?
But the stats on a Lionheart beat anything else in it's "rune class" so to speak...
Lioneheart is 3 socket.....
Treachery on a Frenzy Barb would seem like a nice one, you are garunteed to get hit alot and 60% rez all from Fade + 30 cold then add the IAS of 45! I just wish they would of done better with those 1.11 armors and give them all more attraction.
Yep, nice mods on Lionheart, but I still like others like Duress, or Stone or even Gloom. Think I made Lionheart one time, I always went Smoke for the extra resists.
In todays game where CB and DS play such a large part in killing speed, Duress is one armor I look at every time if I have a speedy attacker!
If I ever came across a LO I would go Fortitude!
Lionheart is definetly a great choice for those Bowazons and other lower life attackers, but I think you can do more for a Barb although maybe fine on a zerker.
McCain123
13-02-2008, 21:55
All damage works. To prebuff chars usually place themself in a fire and get low and controlled damage.
Wolfedude
13-02-2008, 22:06
There may be better armors for strafers but it is hard to beat if you have all of the other equipment and can achieve the proper breakpoints it is what I wear.
Pssh, Lionheart will forever be one of the greats.
Until I got the runes to make the CoH for my Zon, she was happily rocking with her Lionheart Dusk Shroud - and I honestly can't think of anything besides CoH I would have taken it off that girl for.
Cheers
-Tai
Ya, Treachery is basically a garunteed 60% rez all, and sure, I have never put one on a Barb either, hell I havent even made one, its just that with all Dual/2-hander Barbs resist issues start giving you limited gear options or you start slapping UMs in places and for Sheal/Thul/Lem that is darn cheap for 60% and 45 IAS. I think back to 1.09 when Zons (the dupe users, even non-dupe users) always wanted those 15IAS/Rez or 40ish/15IAS jools to make one of those (4) sock 60/15 armors and this one is basically (3) 15 IAS jools with 60 "priz rez" AND Venom with FHR to boot which at times is tuff to add without using a charm and finding a good FHR charm or two with nice secondary mods isnt easy. Sure, many builds can do without FHR, but its nice to have.
So extra damage from Venom (also works similar to Prevent Monster Heal which is nice)
60% rez self explanatory....
45IAS which can eliminate the need for it from other sources like LoH which is still damn nice but could free you up for Dracs, Soul Drainers (Weaken rocks and dual leech) or even Steelrends for more CB..etc. Might even allow you to use LoH vs some dual/Triple rez rares.
Also makes it easier to add those Wartravs/Gores/String/whatever in those other slots and "could" even let you stick to something like Angelics for insane AR vs finding a couple nice rares with leech + more good mods!
OR.....go away from Highlords if that is your choice and use another although that is a damn fine amy for an attacker! But it could also allow you to use a Highlords if you had to use the ammy for resists without the 45 IAS on the armor.
Can also free you up to add OHMs or 40/somethings other than IAS to your weapons, and also maybe allow other RW choices for weapons that have no/not enough IAS on them, or use base weapons that arent already -10 or 0 where before you had to.
Believe me, I think you made a fine choice, and having +2 Sin on a barb armor does look weird and useless but there is alot more going on there depending on what you are trying to do. 45 IAS 60 Priz and Venom is pretty snazzy!
Ever had the dream to use a Big ole Massive damage 2 hander for Zerk or Concentrate, this 45IAS/60Priz could really change that build and with that kind of damage who gives a crap about a +2 you cant use!!! Grandfathers for Frenzy?, some extremely high damage rare that rolled up ETH wiht repair but no speed, or even not ETH but 400+ Ed!!! Sure, sort of rare stuff here, but keep this armor in mind if you even stumble across some insane damage item missing speed!
I personally never looked at a Lionheart as an end game armor, it can be, just didnt look at it that way so it was a transition to end game in my mind. So with that said, the stats helped during transition, but in the end i had to spend the 25 Str/15 Dex in the end to put on my Arcaines, Ik, whatever I was shooting for in the end and loose the life bonus, so when I looked at it that way I kept looking at Smoke and saying, "things are sure easier if I can get 50 Priz over 30 priz from my armor, and that D bonus sure works well early not to mention the FHR". Little extra missle D never hurts either, archers and spear chuckers hurt!
Lionheart rocks, its one of the oldskool words that is still just as useful as it was in 1.09!
ZappaFan
14-02-2008, 18:07
"bang for the runes" was the phrase I used. You mention Arkaine's & IK, but those were both always regarded as Unobtainium in my planning (and frankly I was a little shocked that you so casually mention them as your end game standard). And as far as smoke vs Lionheart goes, it's really no contest. You're talking about the use of a Nef vs. a Hel & a Fal, and what you get for that Hel & Fal vs. losing 20 pris - definitely very worth the tradeoff. Smoke was always something nice to use until I could get a Lionheart. 20 Pris is easy to make up in charms &/or gear. Try making up the difference in stats that way. 20 pris vs. ( 25 str, 20 vita, 15 dex, 50 life).
I personally never looked at a Lionheart as an end game armor, it can be, just didnt look at it that way so it was a transition to end game in my mind. So with that said, the stats helped during transition, but in the end i had to spend the 25 Str/15 Dex in the end to put on my Arcaines, Ik, whatever I was shooting for in the end and loose the life bonus, so when I looked at it that way I kept looking at Smoke and saying, "things are sure easier if I can get 50 Priz over 30 priz from my armor, and that D bonus sure works well early not to mention the FHR". Little extra missle D never hurts either, archers and spear chuckers hurt!
Lionheart rocks, its one of the oldskool words that is still just as useful as it was in 1.09!
Master Zap
14-02-2008, 23:20
I also wanted tp throw out that without a doubt lionheart still rocks socks, but it's a very good merc armor too. Just last night I was switching chars to my level 77 Fa zon and her merc was unable to equip the only insight I had available (Giant thresher) (I lost the other insights I had in the form of the iron golems and Im, grr) Thankfully the armor had both dex and str. The added damage and life is pure cake. Fa is a giant massive mana hog and it would have drasticaly slowed things down for me if I didnt have this armor.
(the alternative was to use gris armor with clever socketing which would not have been as good)
So the moral of the story is even if you outgrow lionheart or use something else, for the cost of making it's always worth it to have one on hand for future chars and Mercs.
Lionheart+Smoke ftw
Well, I always played too much, I usually have a GUL I can trade if I want to make an IK Barb, and I seem to always find 3-5 Valors pretty commonly once I have a MF sorc going. Matter of fact I think I have 3 Valors and 3 Gladsbanes on mules right now and I dont even have an MFer!!! Found them all with my Trapper. Now, things like WF and GFs, those were impossible for me. I also have a tendancy of finding tons of Shakos although I dont have any right now.
Once 1.10 and GULs at Forge came along and me being the type that makes 2-3 accts full of 80-90+ guys, I get what 16+ chances at Hell Forge, I think in that many trys I will get 3-6 Guls, usually using those in some big runeword is not happening but its easy to trade one for IK or Tals, or even a Valor now a days is cheaper than that. Hell I found a +2 Valor my first Pindle run this time playing and couldnt even find anyone to trade it to! These new words have obsoleted it basically.
Now back in 1.09 and my days of Classic mostly and LO 500 armor vs a 800+ one being obvious there, I thought it translated directly to LODD on the side, Smoke was my choice. I wasnt a fan of resist charms when that could be life instead. Also back then I didnt know that it took very high D to really make an impact, so I didnt realize having a 300-400 armor really wasnt worse than having 500+ in the end. Now i know better, but I still usually have as one of my first goals to get a nice Smoke, it just allows me to build all kinds of builds easier and not worry about charms/gear and when you make 16-24 guys in a season your charms get thin!
But, I am not shocked that you were shocked to see me mention those, those types of things are just items I dont like to mention on forums. I like to focus my help on getting things done when you dont have squat! So you wont ever see me tell some guy that I dont know to go get a Valor and UM it, (2) Death Cleavers, or (2) ETH BoTD;s, or a couple of Fortitudes....etc I stick to what I know anyone can get in average play and from Meph. You know, the stuff that we all know beats the game, kills jsut fine, jsut dont lay waste to the world! I dont even like mentioning most Baal drops as basically once you get to him you have beat the game you really shouldnt need much help right?
I talk a "poor mans game" but you cant play my kinds of hours and stay poor all the time! ;) I have had several Tals sorcs, few IK guys but I have never made a Mavs or Griz build. Hell, I have never seen any Griz item fall but the freaking armor EVER!!!
"bang for the runes" was the phrase I used. You mention Arkaine's & IK, but those were both always regarded as Unobtainium in my planning (and frankly I was a little shocked that you so casually mention them as your end game standard). And as far as smoke vs Lionheart goes, it's really no contest. You're talking about the use of a Nef vs. a Hel & a Fal, and what you get for that Hel & Fal vs. losing 20 pris - definitely very worth the tradeoff. Smoke was always something nice to use until I could get a Lionheart. 20 Pris is easy to make up in charms &/or gear. Try making up the difference in stats that way. 20 pris vs. ( 25 str, 20 vita, 15 dex, 50 life).
Just for the record I would like to state that I am a dedicated Lionheart user as well, particularly for Bowazons (or really any physical damage oriented build that does not need boosted defense ratings in body armor).
The Strength bonus of this Runeword is not just useful, it's almost essential in Hardcore if you want to use weapons like Grand Matron bows that have high Strength requirements (since you have to save every last point for Vitality, which is of course also helped by Lionheart). Add that to the resists (not as good as Smoke, admittedly, but still a very useful 30% across the board) and the weapon damage bonus and there's not much more that you could ask for in a mid-range Runeword.
I'm aware that Treachery is in some ways better -- I like it on mercenaries -- but its big flaw is that the bonus to resists via Fade only kicks in when you get hit (yeah, you can stand in a fire... fine for the Ubers, I find it a pain when doing ordinary playing) and, crucially, it can wear off (usually at the worst moment). In Hardcore I'm afraid that this is just a chance that's too risky to take. Plus, Lem runes are a bit hard to find. I seem to get two or three Fals for every Lem. Maybe that's just my luck but if I build a Treachery, especially early in the Ladder season, I want to put it on an Assassin!! :grin:
Incidentally, let me put in a good word for Smoke. It definitely has its uses, and in particular those Weaken charges it comes with can be very, very useful. Combine Weaken with some per centage or integer physical damage reduction (either on you or your long-suffering A2 or A5 merc) and it's instantly much harder to die in Hell, at least from non-elemental attacks. Also Weaken lasts a nice long time in Hell, so you're not constantly burning through expensive spell charges.
Finally, don't neglect its modest, but still useful, Defense Rating multiplier. Making a Smoke for a merc in (say) an ethereal Ornate Plate or Wire Fleece results in a merc who is basically elemental immune throughout the game and who can get ~1300-1800 defense rating just via body armor (and the body armor has a low enough Strength requirement that it can be used from mid-game on). A2 Defiance and A2 Prayer (with Insight for synergy) mercs in this configuration are extremely difficult for most monsters to kill before you can give your friend a potion.
It works for me, being the ghetto gear guy that I am... :cool:
Cheers
Mr_Bill
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