First Ladder Assassin - Unconventional

[DaiWales]

Hi, I've decided that my next character will be an Assassin. I had an Assassin years ago on single player but never did very well (it's single player, after all, and I had very little idea about the game). I wish to make this Assassin a killing machine, capable of taking out groups and bosses quickly with maximum style points :)

So, why did I put unconventional in the thread title? Well, I simply dislike cookie-cutter builds - I hate copying other peoples' strategies and wish to find some originality and creativity in the game. So, I want to try something that hasn't really been done, and make it perfectly viable and stupidly fun. Being viable in PVP is also a bonus, but this is really for PVM.

First I will set out the goals of PVM:
1. Acquire Wealth
2. Kill quick
3. Be unkillable
4. Have fun

Acquiring wealth can be done by killing bosses with nice magic find, gambling with nice gold find and killing lots for that lucky drop. Killing things quickly is quite essential to any build, to make it compete with the more conventional Hammerdin and Lightning Sorc builds. So, faster run/walk or teleport is needed, as well as lots of damage. Having fun is the best part, so something has to make you awe. With Lightning Sorcs it's the teleport speed and high damage, with this one it's going to be the pure speed that this character will kill things.

So, onto my theorycraft:
High IAS + High AR + High CB + High Damage = dead bosses.
High IAS + AoE + High Damage = dead monsters.

So what if I could make a dual-wi Assassin that reaches its final IAS breakpoint (60%IAS with 2x Greater Talons), 100% Crushing Blow, but also can deal with masses of monsters? Would it be viable and fun? Perhaps.

Where I would like to converse with you is with this point - Should I use Martial Arts to cope with hordes or would a switch weapon be better? Like the runeword that supplies Zeal? Or even Whirlwind? Would this mass-CB demolish bosses? Would I definitely need to back it up by having high damage so I can leech more, or would I be okay? Resists can be managed easily through charms, so in the equipment what I really want is just pure power. Thoughts?

[Diablofly]

Woah.... I couldn't get past the fact that you listed "fun" as number 4 on your list. It's a game, after all, shouldn't that really be Number 1 for priority?

[DaiWales]

They're in no particular order. If you look, I say, "Having fun is the best part".

[Avantor]

Well i have just tried a build which covers all your points maybe except nr. 1. (No room for MF)

In all its simplicity its a PDR build kick / trapsin. Very fun, very solid (120 physical dmg reduced now! And for more in depth explaination how PDR immortal builds work pm me for some links).

1) Due to PDR i can stand in middle og listers pack with out too much worry at all. So PDR covers the near immortal aspect. One time he spawned with extra strong, fanatism if i remember correctly. Merc insta died, and I noticed health drop faster than normal, however just start kicking away and lifetap trigger and you are mostly set 8)

2) Great against bosses due to dragon talon dishing out so much CB so quickly. With draculs grasp you see lifetap go off very often = even more immortality (when monsters manage to pierce PDR and slightly dent you :p)

3) DS kills huge crowds insanely fast. I chose to also max LS and most of its synergy (for when IM is upon you! Curse that damn curse lol). Place cpl LS traps or start kicking all those monsters butts, when you see couple corpses lying on the ground, spam DS and watch entire screens clear up while you laugh your evil laughter mwahahhahaa.

4) This build is so much fun. Its nothing new, I just put something together from different guides i.e kicksin / trapsin hybrid and the PDR abbot build.

I love the immortal aspect of PDR and laugh my evil laugther against crowds. Not only can they not touch you, but once a few corpses are made the chain of death is rolling! Mwahahha!

I found out that k/t build work well with PDR. (PDR builds need alot of slots dedicated to pure PDR, limiting alot of builds depending on high IAS or high FCR. Resists are a challenge to with PDR Builds but easier on assasin, barb and paladin (due to fade, natural resistance and pally shields respectiviely)

Again, not sure how original and non cookie cutter build you find this, maybe you will hate it, but for me it felt unconvential enough. (Both builds are well known, but i havent seen so many combinating those)

[DaiWales]

It sounds like it's a lot of fun, and I may try it.

Out of sheer boredom, I planned out my theorycrafted Assassin, focusing on getting enough CB. It involved using Dual "Strength" Runic Talons with Guillaume's Face and Gore Riders. I had Treachery as my armour (For IAS, FHR and the all-important Fade) and so that pretty much covers the IAS breakpoint and a fair portion of the resists needed, so all that was left was dealing with groups. Now with that setup I wouldn't really need to invest anything into martial arts for the boss-killing as CB would kick ***, nor would I have to put much into Shadow Disciplines, as I have Fade and Venom on the armour. So I could pour points into DS and it's synergies, as you say. With an Infinity (I'll have one of these soon), it really should kick ***. But with the build I made, I had a strong lack of FCR, would this affect Trap-Laying speed?

I suppose I still need an opinion on making the Zeal runeword or the Whirlwind runeword (Their names escape me at this time).

*daiwales

[Avantor]

trap laying speed is determined by ias so dont worry about fcr at all! Makes it so much easier with gear 8)

[stephan]

You are aware that CB from different weapons does not stack wiht each other right?

I don't see much point in Zeal when you got DTalon, unless you are making a theme build.

[DaiWales]

Well I think I'm settled on having an Assassin dual-wielding Strength Claws (75% CB on each hit is pretty nice) and using LS and it's synergies to own groups. With an Infinity, it should rock groups and rock bosses.

Any further feedback is of course, welcome!

*daiwales

[DaiWales]

Is Dragon Talon a worthwhile skill to have? i.e. will it be better than just slashing away with claws against bosses? I want CB to process more often, so which is faster? And does DT use both claws or just the main-hand one?

[wizAdept]

Well I think I'm settled on having an Assassin dual-wielding Strength Claws (75% CB on each hit is pretty nice) and using LS and it's synergies to own groups. With an Infinity, it should rock groups and rock bosses.

Any further feedback is of course, welcome!

*daiwales

In case you didnt read it earlier in this this thread: that cb% from both claws does *not* stack. For claw attacks each claw calculates cb% separately adding offweapon + individual claw cb%. For kicking, only cb% on your primary claw + offweapon cb% matters, offhand claw adds nothing.
In no case does strength + strength stack together.

And yes dtalon is a great way to apply cb%. In case you dont know kick/trap hybrids are quite the powerful pvm build. I suggest you find and read ilkori's flashdancer guide.

[DaiWales]

I know the CB on each claw doesn't stack. But I have 50%CB before my claws are counted, so I have 75%CB on my left hand claw when that strikes, and 75% on my right-hand claw, right? It probably won't matter anyway as it seems I'm likely to go DT.

[raishi]

the cb on the claws should transfer to the kicks...i think...not sure how it is applied exactly but with that much cb it won't really matter...and kicks are great since you are hitting multiple times very fast, 4 fpa main 2 fpa/other kicks...up to like 4 or 5 kicks...or so i have seen...that will shread any creatures hp that isn't physical immune...but your traps should be able to handle physical immunes...since not many things spawn with physical and lightning...

[DaiWales]

Okay so I'm pretty much decided on my Assassin - except for one thing:

What is the quickest way to deal CB? Using a Martial Art or just swinging?

[maiku]

Dragon Talon or Blade Fury, I'd think. Dtalon's probably the best. Dtalon can get 3 fpa attacks, IIRC. Blade Fury...no idea. You could also try Dragon Claw, as I believe this hits fast and won't suffer from the ranged CB penalty as Blade Fury would.

[DaiWales]

Well isn't DT a kick attack? I'd only need one claw then with all the mods I need on it. Whereas DC would involve both claws, right? God I need advice from a pro assassin player :P

[phool]

only the main hand claw's mods are transferred to kicks as I remember. Admittedly I haven't made a sin that doesn't use a shield in a long time.

[maiku]

Well isn't DT a kick attack? I'd only need one claw then with all the mods I need on it. Whereas DC would involve both claws, right? God I need advice from a pro assassin player :P

Eh, I don't consider myself a pro assassin player. Yes, Dragon Talon is a kick attack. Certain mods apply to kick attacks, certain mods don't, and Dtalon is better for applying things like Crushing Blow, Static, Amp/Decrepify, etc. than say Dtail would be. DC would involve both claws, I think.

I've been "committing" quite a few sins recently, but several of my earlier attempts at a different kind of Martial Arts Sin just didn't work out. Dflight = no go. No matter how much I tried to work with it or build around it. It just sucks.The current build I'm running, revolving around a combo of TS + Dtail and DS + LS, however, is horrendously overpowered. O.o I'm very pleased with her. I mow through Hell packs faster than my Frenzy Barb.

[mystified]

TS + Dtail is very cool, but have problem with immunities..damn fire ones. although nice dmg on your LCS.
DT is cool way of ensuring maximum CB with fast follow up kicks. venom really not needed =p
which also means DT + LS is very nice since you willl have rather nice LS dmg too as well as being able to kill bosses faster than trappers..and able to do ubers.
..tho for style points, there is phoenix charge martial arts. cool effects, fast at killing bosses (say meteor?) and able to deal aoe dmg using various amount of charge. although this require some nifty equips, but in my case using nat sets and a bartuc (well it looked good at the time. now i don't know..maybe shaeled jade?) i had fun. you see people looking at you as if you are some sort of idiot for using skills in such way, but hell like i cared about peer pressure XD
go for meteor+ lightning build, maxing 2 synergies for phoenix. I haven't made mine yet in new ladder since I am still acquiring pieces (I have helms only...) but can't wait for it.

PS imo DT + LS (k/t bulid) is effective but boring. it isn't exactly a popular build but someone always has it. usually with stormlash or LW or something so expensive that you thing wtf...altho gimmershred is just as nice choice (well cheaper anyway). also tends to use traps a lot more than you like unless you get good boots
but that is my opinion.
also TS + DTail you don't see so much but have probs with immune unless yo plan to mf in cow, pit, ancient tunnel, mausoleum only. and charge part kinda annoys you. then again pheonix charge is also annoying in some ways (somewhat better to have slower claw to get that charge right XD)

[DaiWales]

I have an Infinity so that should help with Lightning Immunes, so DS should be able to take care of groups. All I need to know is what the fastest way of dealing CB to bosses is. I have a level 86 Assassin ready to skill up and you know, it'd be a waste if I put 20 into something I really don't need.

So a lot of people suggest DT, with which I can equip a Shield for more resists and defense. Sounds good, but is it the fastest attacking move the Assassin has? Tiger Strike sounds good, but it's just adding more damage, which I don't need because I'm going for CB, with LS finishing off. Simply put - fastest assassin attack = ?

[mystified]

DTalon and that is it. more kick (higher lv DT) = more dmg output by kick per frame/second
i belive the frames go 7/3/3. 7 for initial, folowup kicks get 3 frame, combining with cb, making it rather good. oh, the ar boost is just gravy

[maiku]

TS + Dtail is very cool, but have problem with immunities..damn fire ones. although nice dmg on your LCS.

I took the immunes problem into account when I was building this Dtailer, because they've been a problem on my previous attempts at a Dtailer. That's why the skills include maxed DS and LS. My Barb Merc is packing a "Lawbringer" PB at the moment, with an Arreat's and "Treachery" on, so that he swings fast and procs Decrepify on packs. When I hit 75 later, I will be using Reaper's Toll on either a Might or Holy Freeze Merc. -50% PDR on enemies and slows the suckers down. It breaks many PIs and it also enhances my Dtail kicks and my corpse explosions from Death Sentry. This build deals thousands upon thousands of physical, fire, and lightning damage, so, needless to say, I haven't had any problems with immunes so far. I run through packs really fast and leave a lot of gooey messes, charred corpses, or fried critters in my wake.

[phool]

I've made a lot of ts-dtailers and I can't honestly recommend them as a very effective cheap build, whatever you do with the rest of you points (ls+ds/ps+cot/dt+venom/etc). I think if you're not working on a budget dtail without ts can be more fun.

[DaiWales]

Here's a noobie question - what is the fool's mod?

[phool]

gives max and ar per level, tons of the latter in particular.

16.5ar/level, .75 max/level iirc

[Dumohelper]

Hi, I've decided that my next character will be an Assassin. I had an Assassin years ago on single player but never did very well (it's single player, after all, and I had very little idea about the game). I wish to make this Assassin a killing machine, capable of taking out groups and bosses quickly with maximum style points :)

So, why did I put unconventional in the thread title? Well, I simply dislike cookie-cutter builds - I hate copying other peoples' strategies and wish to find some originality and creativity in the game. So, I want to try something that hasn't really been done, and make it perfectly viable and stupidly fun. Being viable in PVP is also a bonus, but this is really for PVM.

First I will set out the goals of PVM:
1. Acquire Wealth
2. Kill quick
3. Be unkillable
4. Have fun

Acquiring wealth can be done by killing bosses with nice magic find, gambling with nice gold find and killing lots for that lucky drop. Killing things quickly is quite essential to any build, to make it compete with the more conventional Hammerdin and Lightning Sorc builds. So, faster run/walk or teleport is needed, as well as lots of damage. Having fun is the best part, so something has to make you awe. With Lightning Sorcs it's the teleport speed and high damage, with this one it's going to be the pure speed that this character will kill things.

So, onto my theorycraft:
High IAS + High AR + High CB + High Damage = dead bosses.
High IAS + AoE + High Damage = dead monsters.

So what if I could make a dual-wi Assassin that reaches its final IAS breakpoint (60%IAS with 2x Greater Talons), 100% Crushing Blow, but also can deal with masses of monsters? Would it be viable and fun? Perhaps.

Where I would like to converse with you is with this point - Should I use Martial Arts to cope with hordes or would a switch weapon be better? Like the runeword that supplies Zeal? Or even Whirlwind? Would this mass-CB demolish bosses? Would I definitely need to back it up by having high damage so I can leech more, or would I be okay? Resists can be managed easily through charms, so in the equipment what I really want is just pure power. Thoughts?

you should be a sin kick trapper its really good

[maiku]

I've made a lot of ts-dtailers and I can't honestly recommend them as a very effective cheap build, whatever you do with the rest of you points (ls+ds/ps+cot/dt+venom/etc). I think if you're not working on a budget dtail without ts can be more fun.

Not too expensive I think. My Dtailer uses the following:

Dual Bartuc's, primary is Shaeled, secondary nothing
+2 Martial Arts gloves, 20% IAS, resists, some +Dex (found them)
"Treachery" Archon Plate
String of Ears
Goreriders (upgraded to Myrmidon Greaves)
+2 Rare Diadem w/ good mods for a Martial Sin (life leech, +AR, faster run, resists, etc.; I imbued this)
+1 rare sin amulet w/ resists and mana leech
Dual leech ring (found this), Ravenfrost

Most of this gear, maybe with the exception of the gloves, diadem, and dual leech ring, can be purchased for pgems or found and created. You can substitute many other gloves and helmets for the ones I listed. My particular take on the build, though, relies heavily on Decrepify from the Merc, because the curse enhances the two primary skills: Dtail & DS. You get Decrepify by equipping the Merc with either a "Lawbringer" sword (Barb Merc) or Reaper's Toll. I have used both, and the current Merc is a Defiance Merc using a Reaper's Toll.

Decrepify does 3 things for this build:

1. First, automatic crowd control, slowing, and an extra layer of safety. Decrepify makes enemies hit less hard, which means that any PDR you have is increased in effectiveness. Invaluable when you're up close and personal.

2. Of course, it makes your Dtail and Death Sentries hit much harder. I always like more damage, and I hope you do too. -50% PDR on your enemies, so they can feel your love. Helps keep Dtail physical *and* fire damage high, because Dtail needs high physical damage dealt to generate its insane fire damage. A powerful Dtail also allows one-kick refilling of your life and mana bulbs if you have enough leech. Decrepified enemies also serve as fodder for DS chain explosions, like a Bonemancer or Fishymancer does with Amp and CE.

3. Breathing space. If you or your Merc and Shadow come up against something really nasty, you have time to run away and regroup, to recast your Shadow if she dies, or to switch attacks and strategy. Decrepify keeps minions and hirelings alive, and generally speaking, it's a friendly party curse that Bowazons, Barbarians, Paladins, etc. will love. Probably the only guys who won't will be Summoners/Fishymancers, because they'll want Amp.

Once I drop a ring of bodies with a Dtail, they feed the Sentries I've laid down and turn the entire screen into a big gooey mess. The corpse explosions happen almost at the same time, while enemies are Decrepified, and that's brutal. Stragglers either get picked off by remaining traps and lightning blasts or me charging and releasing a kick on them. I can see why Death Sentry gets such high marks. It's pretty good without a curse like Amp or Decrep, and really good with one. :wink3:

If I was on a budget, I'd use:

- Partial Sigon's (gloves, belt, but not boots)
- Partial IK (gloves, belt, boots--this is Hell viable, and they do have many mods that work really well on this build, like the massive +Str, +Dex, +life, and big resists boost, except that your Dtail won't be as strong as it could be)
- Tal's Mask, Stealskull, Rockstopper, etc. Some decent melee helm.
- +1 Sin Circlet w/ decent stats like +life and resists
- "Lore" Circlet/Helm
- Shaftstop, Iron Pelt, etc.
- Crafted/Rare Myrmidon Greaves

+Skills are not direly needed on this char, but you do want good boots (Myrmidons) so your kick damage won't suck and you can leech back health and mana with ease. For example, some calcs I did on the AB Assassin Kick Calculator suggest that the massive boost of Str from partial IK can compensate quite a lot for the loss of +2-3 skills to Dtail. You will get close to the same kick damage, although a little lower. At some point, when you're doing 30K+ kicks, adding another thousand or two damage isn't a huge deal. It's more of a deal when you can add another 10-20K on that.

It is also possible to use this build for MF, so long as you avoid areas with IM (remember, Dtail w/ IM = dead Sin), so try to be careful cruising around Chaos Sanctuary or Worldstone Keep level 3. It shares that same weakness with many melee builds. I may write a mini-guide for this variant after I switch some more items and equipment over and test them and get BoS (need to do my Izual quests). She steamrollers everything in Pit and many other popular MF areas. She also takes on bosses pretty well. Decrepified bosses lose nice chunks of life when you hit them with a fully charged Dtail.

According to the AB Assassin kick calculator, with her current stats and gear, she deals a Dtail averaging ~35K when fully charged (28K to 43K). Her DS deals about 2.3K lightning damage and has a radius of 14 yards for its corpse explosion. LS numbers are a little higher than DS, but I don't remember them. I use DS most of the time. LS is for Act Bosses. I've been using it mostly in Baal games to fry Baal while I charge up and use Dtail on him. Even in 8-player Hell Baal games, Baal loses a noticeable chunk of life when he's kicked. I'm not sure what the exact damage numbers are, but I imagine it hurts...badly.

This sin is a million times better than the Dflight and other Dtail builds I was working on.

[phool]

My no ts dtailer uses

beast warspike
37 pdr monarch (4x sol)
fortitude ap
3 ma 20 ias gauntlets, want 2 ma 10 CB dual leech blood gloves with some res
bk 5
ravenfrost 248/20
+2 MA 25 pdr amu
+3 MA 23 pdr circlet 1x 40/7 ed/str 1x 38/15 ed/ias
arach
upped gores

MA skillers with life or fhr, torch, anni, scs with res/life/fhr

cta/slendor on switch

infinity/forti/andy's on might merc

3 fireblast
20 death sentry
20 dragon talon
20 dragon tail
20 shadow master
1 all the 1 pt wonders
some more in bos