View Full Version : Enchanted Melee sorc + ES, what do you think?
Hi, y'all!
I have been wanting to make some new cool build (new to me that is, I don't claim to have come up with a new build) and since I love playing sorcs I figured I could try a melee sorc. I will not get Dreams for this one, and no Beast so the Bearsorc and the Dream sorc is out of the question. The idea I get is to use ES in combination with enchant. Since I allready have maxed warmth I will get a good mana regen, and with maxed telek it will effectivly work as %res all dmg (since I loose 0.75 mana/damage point that would have taken away 1 life).
What do you think? What gear should I use? (axe, ofc, but what axe? thinking about ethereal edge..) Please shoot all your thoughts at me! =)
Cheers and merry christmas!
Problem is that you won't attack very fast and physical dmg will be very low so that gives you an attack of only fire damage and very slow.
sangfagel
21-12-2007, 16:21
Interesting idea - (I am so boooored building allways the same sorc :rolleyes: )
My first thought goes to Passion. It is cheap (Dol + Ort + Eld + Lem) and would give you zeal what can be of value för a char without melee attack of her own. Just look at these mods:
+25% Increased Attack Speed
+160-210% Enhanced Damage (varies) (and sux... I know:azn: )
50-80% Bonus To Attack Rating (varies)
+75% Damage To Undead
+50 To Attack Rating Against Undead
Adds 1-50 Lightning Damage
+1 To Berserk
+1 To Zeal
Hit Blinds Target +10
Hit Causes Monster To Flee 25%
75% Extra Gold From Monsters
Level 3 Heart of Wolverine (12 Charges)
You can make it in any 4-soc weapon, so you can use ba or ea if you go for shield but even a big, nasty polearm if you feel for some style points.
Call To Arms on switch would be nice as well for Battle Orders - if soloing.
DH Amazon
21-12-2007, 16:29
Hi, y'all!
I have been wanting to make some new cool build (new to me that is, I don't claim to have come up with a new build) and since I love playing sorcs I figured I could try a melee sorc. I will not get Dreams for this one, and no Beast so the Bearsorc and the Dream sorc is out of the question. The idea I get is to use ES in combination with enchant. Since I allready have maxed warmth I will get a good mana regen, and with maxed telek it will effectivly work as %res all dmg (since I loose 0.75 mana/damage point that would have taken away 1 life).
What do you think? What gear should I use? (axe, ofc, but what axe? thinking about ethereal edge..) Please shoot all your thoughts at me! =)
Cheers and merry christmas!
With stormshield+max block (=you need dex anyway if using phase blade), so not wasted points and about 1000-1200 life is enough.
Its one of the safest melee chars anyway without energyshield and you have to be near manaburners, so they too shield off once per 1-2min. So prebuffing is out of question.
And its easy to get max resist for shield using char and you need them anyway, because shield will be off quite often. Its godly when no mana burners near, but little too weak around them.
What kind of attack you plan to use against fire immunes?
One that worked with energyshield was sorc that uses high crushing blow against fire immunes. She was using that ripcracker staff and holy freeze merc with kelpie snare to slow down very hard ones, so sorc and kill those easy too.
She could clear travi and whole meph area just fine even full games, in hell of course. I used even non-upped one, enchant boost damage enough and life leech/mana leech is out of question anyway for sorc. Too tiny damage.
But areas where are lots of little critters or archers, she and merc were in trouble. And mana burner in these areas and clearing fast was impossible.
At least try that combo (kelpie+ripcracker) at low levels.
I have tried about 10-15 different melee sorcs (cant make legit dream, so havent tried that). Making beast is now first time possible, but havent tried at either. I kind of want to tele when using melee sorc. But in those non-uber items builds I have tried, meleenova sorc has worked best. Only iron maiden can take her down. Or corpse explosion when played to aggressively.
Merry merry christmas too, need to catch the train and go northern part of Finland.
Hmm, maybe frozen nova plus melee and a ar aura merc with high damaging polearm.
Could be fun.
Thx for the replies. I too have thought about Passion, but forgot it when making this post. I have read that sorcs have a good speed with axes compared to others and that they are recommended therefore. But PB is better?
The Melee-Nova build was the one I was thinking about, second to the ES. You probably very right about the prob with ES when so close to mana burners.. however, I love ES =) Do you think it would work well with ES? I mean, bears uses it and they are even futher away from a quick recast.. But I guess nova could complement really well since it has no synergies and thus doesn't take many points and has no prereqs (static, but duh...) Frost Nova takes to many points in synergies, I think.
If I go with ES, would it work to max ES and use PDR to get a full built ES-sorc that takes no damage? Or would that give me a built to spread out yielding an ineffective char?
I like the idea of Ribby, it's a beautiful weapon! :) But what do you all recomend, one handed or two handed? Phase Blade or what? Passion?
I don't think an Blessed Aim merc would be needed since Enchant boosts your AR quite a lot. I will most likly go with a Holy Freeze, spontaniously I think it's a pretty easy choise, at least if I go for the Nova variant. If I go with ES I might want a might merc to take out FI's faster..
The idea of big CB sounds good, will try that!
So, to sunm up my questions:
Will ES be viable?
ES or Nova?
1-handed or 2-handed?
Axe or Sword or Polearm or what?
Some ideas for gear?
Thx a lot for all the input!
sirpoopsalot
21-12-2007, 19:41
- yes, ES will be viable. The biggest problem will be Fire Immunes though. You won't need the mana for a lot of other things (other than teleport), so it might even be possible to skimp on TK/ES points and make a backup attack.
- personally, I'd pick ES. sorcs are fun, but they're just so damn fragile that I'd want some extra help with a melee one. And getting a strong (enough) nova while loaded full of melee gear seems like a stretch.
- I think you'll probably want a shield. If you do decide for two-handed, consider having a Delerium helm, Reaper's Toll, or some such to help you with crowd-control. With my ranged enchantress I had difficulties reaching good resists because I didn't have a shield, so that's something else to keep in mind.
- I think others have done the math, and axe seems like the best conclusion for a melee sorc.
Gear:
- Did you consider Kingslayer? It has +1 Vengance, as well as a plethora of other fantastic melee mods (CB, OW, PMH, IAS, %ED...). It's really a decent item on its own without the +Vengance. There's a guide in the stickies for a Kingslayer enchantress that uses Masteries to boost the elemental damage (and it seems like a viable backup/switch attack for Fire Immunes, even if you go with ES/Nova). It does take some relatively high runes, but I don't know your 'finances', so maybe that's not a problem.
- Treachery seems like possibly the best armour. I found myself wishing there was a way to deliver my damage faster, so IAS is often a big part of enchantresses.
- You could always skimp on points spent into Enchant itself, and then use the charges on Demon Limb - or even the ctc on Obedience. If you go with Nova, both of these seem like reasonable ideas. Hard points in Warmth & FM will still synergize the charges or ctc, so you can get a (somewhat) decent enchant without spending points in it.
BTW, over in the single-player forum there is a stickied thread with a compilation of matriarch/patriarch threads. There's probably a few melee enchantress writeups there, and some of those might give you a good feel for playing this build.
have fun.
sirpoopsalot
21-12-2007, 20:57
1. I forgot to wish you a merry christmas as well. :wave:
2. If you do look at Kingslayer, here's some very useful info for you from Asmo's Avenger Guide (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=462229).
What counts towards Vengeance elemental damage;
* - Enhanced or min/max damage from socketing in the weapon.
* - Min/max damage from socketing in off weapon equipment.
* - Min/max damage from items or charms.
* - Weapon and item added damage that reads "adds xx damage" such as Butchers pupil, War traveller boots and Blood Fist gloves.
What doesn't count towards Vengeance elemental damage;
* - Auras enhanced damage such as Might or Fanatism.
* - Weapon added damage that reads "damage + xx" such as Grief rune word and The Redeemer. This has been tested in game to not work.
* - Factors such as Deadly Strike, Open Wounds or Crushing Blow.
* - Strength. Vengeance works from weapon damage only.
* - Off weapon enhanced damage such as Lion Heart or Duress rune words.
Thx a lot for the input Poops. First off, I should say that one of the reasons I wanted to make an enchantress is to be able to enchant others too and to do that with demonlimb will be very costly. Also, I would rather go with Passion than Kingslayer. But what Zeal breakpoints to look at for axes? I mean, in the stickies there is a table for the PB and a few other weapons, what would the breakpoints for, say, a BA be? Using a phase blade would make me have to put a lot of points in Dex and since I will most likely go with ES I will need points there, right? If I use Passion + Higlords + Treachery + IAS gloves I will have 110 IAS, so I will not benefit that much from the superfast PB since I will have some IAS.. any body knowing zeal BPs and how they look for Axes?
Thinking about building something like this:
Skills
Maxed Telek, Enchant, Warmth and FM
one point in static, Frozen Armour and ES
with these skills including prereqs I land at
87 skill points, done at lvl 75, so from there maybe maxing frozen armour?
Gear
Passion (what weapon???)
Treachery
Highlords
Guillis face
Raven
Goreriders
What would you recommend for the other ring, the belt, gloves (thinking dracs for life tap or some IAS, maybe crafted with CB) and shield?
With IAS gloves and IAS belt I would get 120 IAS, a IAS jewel in the helm and possibly in the shield would give me more. recomendations?
thx!
Zeal FpA IAS% tables
zeal frames for sorc: (courtesy Roguemage) . Remember that there is already 25% on the weapon itself.
[-30] speed 1-handed swinging weapon (Phase Blade), highly recommended
11/8: 30% IAS
9/8: 54% IAS
10/7: 65% IAS
[-10] speed 1-handed swinging weapon (Scourge, Caduceus, Warpike)
11/8: 70% IAS
9/8: 109% IAS
10/7: 129% IAS
recomendation is pb and dual dream. i have sorc build around it + enchant. can play like bear sorc or zealer
dont know why last breakpoint have slower first attack. i m just passsing the info
sirpoopsalot
22-12-2007, 21:55
I don't know what the IAS/zeal breakpoints are with axes, so it's hard to make knowledgable gear recommendations (and choices). That said...
- It looks like you're very low on resists. I know ES makes them a little less necessary, but any time you encounter a conviction/mana-burn pack you could be in for a rough time. That might be worth considering for some of your remaining equipment.
- Drac's might simply be the best gloves - they're really hard to beat for any zealer, even if it means a slightly slower attack sometimes.
- Although I don't use it often, I think Nature's Peace might be a decent second ring for a build like this.
- And just to be sure, you're going to rely on physical damage (and minions/party-mates) for Fire Immunes? That might be a hint towards your remaining equipment (and/or sockets), since your physical damage is probably going to be quite weak.
Also, for skills, perhaps Glacial Spike or Frost Nova for the chilling/slowing... :undecided:
thx for that vknez, but like I said I've checked the break points in the spicky, the question is what they are for axes, because sorcs are naturally kinda fast with axes, or so I've read. So I am still looking for an answer to what the zeal breakpoints are for a sorc with axes.
Poops, hmm, yes, you are right, res might be low. I'm getting 60 from Treach (fade), that is -10, another 30ish from torch+anni so I'm around +20, using Credendum belt and a cool ring with res (I am currently crafting quite a bit of Blood rings) I'd be at 35 plus what ever I get from my ring, add a Mosers shield for another 25 and I'm at 60, so I could socket it with some ED jewels, perhaps?
I figured that if I use gores+guillis face Id have 50% CB, as has been suggested earlier I might even carry a Ribcracker on switch, some fast CB combined with a merc with some big bad polearm could take care of the FI's or what do you think?
As for the remainder of the skillpoints the Frost Nova sounds most interresting, the freeze time of around 3 sec is less than a sec in hell, so it needs to be spammed to be efficient, however, the FNova gets up around 20 seconds, so it could be used in between some Zeal series.. interresting idea...
Thx a lot for all the great ideas, I really appreciate it!
sirpoopsalot
22-12-2007, 22:35
lol, I forgot about Treachery/Fade. I was thinking you were sitting in the -40 resists range. :tongue: As always, more resists is better, but I guess if you find yourself needing other things from your equipment you might get by with what you have.
As for your physical/CB setup, it'll definitely work, but also you'll definitely slow down against FI's. More IAS? More CB? More patience? Something else? I'm not really sure what you'd find 'best' to improve your anti-FI solutions.
Sidenote: it's these dilemas that make build-planning interesting ;). Personally, I'm still trying to decide on your Passion/ES/physical approach, or a Vengeance/LM/lightning charms solution for when I build my melee enchantress. :grin:
Zeal FpA IAS% tables
dont know why last breakpoint have slower first attack. i m just passsing the info
Actually zeal consists of 3 animations: the 1st swing, the follow up swing and the end swing. For the penultimate breakpoint they are respectively 6, 8 and 11 frames. Now to make things easier to write down, X is added to the 1st swing to make it equal to the follow ups and X is subtracted from the end swing (6+2 and 11-2 gives 9/8 zeal (yes in reality the 9 is the last attack, not the first, although it's not actually 9, but 11 frames).
The last zeal BP gives, respectively, 6, 7 and 11 frame animations. When we make the first swing equal to the follow ups we get (6+1, 11-1) 10/7 zeal. So in reality the end animation is not slower, it's just an easier way of writing down the breakpoints.
You can check the zeal EIAS breakpoints on the AB.
Yes, the Fade will help, I will see what we get out of this, I will try out different res solutions..
Hm, yes, I figure I will be pretty slow against FI's. Since I will most likely go with Frost Nova as a slow downer, should I go for a Might merc instead of, what I originaly planed for extra damage? Equiping him with a Reapers Toll to get some -phys res for an extra punch? Or should I get an A3 merc for another element? I will really try to get to the last break point, that's why I'm looking for answers about the axes and zeal - to see if it will be possible to get a decent attack speed using something like a BA. I don't think more CB is possible with the Passion rune word and Dracs gloves, except using Goblin Toe instead of Gores. Perhaps Duress instead of Treach? It would ad some nice cold damage and 15 CB. But I feel like I will miss the IAS. Hmm.. how much would some ED jewels in the equipment add to my Phys dmg? What about a Kingslayer on switch? I guess it wouldn't be that good without masteries..
Oh, thx for that Stephan!
indeed, build planning is half the fun of the game!
Oh, this is so me.. First of, I just realized one thing, I gotta get at least +3 to all skills to get all the 5 attacks from zeal (the fourth from BC from CTA) so I started thinking.. Maybe a Kingslayer variant would be really cool =) I've been checking around at guides.. will get back one this subject :)
Never thought about vengeance before, does the damage get boosted by masteries?
Gimmershred
23-12-2007, 04:26
since you rely heavily on your energyshield, you could also make an insight swinging sorc. With an insight tresher you would need 90% ias for 9 frame attack.
Maybe with something like this, if you can manage to get 95% es.
Insight tresher
Death gloves
Death belt (30%ias , great poison resist wich is good with 95%es, cbf, 8ll)
Treachery
Highlords
Gore Riders
Guillaume helm
Ravenfrost
Dualleech ring with some AR.
You will have around +-100% total amount of deadly+critical with this setup and insight is a pretty funny weapon. Not only the mana regen is great, but you also get 35%fcr, good ar bonus and the above mentioned critical strike.
Gimmershred
23-12-2007, 04:30
or maybe this setup
Insight tresher
3fire/20fcr 2s helm with 2x 15 ias jewel
Fortitude
Highlords
Sigon boots+gloves
Nosferatu belt
This setup also gives you 9 frame attack, but also 300% more ed, more fcr and more lifeleech. Although your physical damage increases you miss out on crushing blow and deadly strike. Although with a good roll insight and highlords your deadly should be sufficient.
Eilo Rytyj
23-12-2007, 05:47
Actually, just so you all know, swinging speed of certain weapon types are universal.
"two handed swinging weapons" = 2h Axes, Polearms, 2h Mauls, Staves
"two handed Swords" = their own class
"one handed swinging weapons" = 1h Swords, 1h Axes, 1h Maces, Scepters, Wands, Orbs
"one handed thrusting weapons" =Javelins, Daggers
"two handed thrusting weapons" = Spears
"one handed claws" = Claws
A Passion for an Enchant/Dreamer Sorc should always be in a Phase Blade. The physical damage is irrelevant, all you need is speed and PB's the fastest.
Likewise, Kingslayer for a Sorceress should always be in a 2 handed swinging weapon. Vengeance is based on weapon damage, and a Sorceress swings fastest with 2 handed swinging weapons (faster than a Barb, believe it or not). The slower swinging speed of 1h weapons and the much lower damage is not worth a shield when you have ES. And if the shield is Dream, Passion gets you more bang for your buck with it anyway.
That's a good idea with the Insight Gimmershred. With the lack of any decent attack skills which provide +ed%, Insight turns out to be a nice little stick to make up for it, namely with it's Critical Strike oskill. The +AR% is also great for that same reason.
I'd personally go with the Treachery and Highlord's, and probably Guillaume's with an IAS Jewel and Bloodfist to make it 90% IAS. Then I'd probably go with either SoE, TGods, Arachs (yep) or a Craft for a belt, and the Gores as the boots. With Insight, Arachs and a FCR leech ring (oh so rare), you'll hit the 63% FCR breakpoint too, plus the +1 skill from Arachs means more Enchant damage, higher CS%, more mana regen etc etc.
Any AR, Mana (for ES survivability) and/or life can be made up for with charms. Mix and match, see what works best.
I'd also put just a single hard point into Cold Mastery to help the cold damage of Raven out a little, and 1 in Lightning Mastery to boost Highlord's and maybe TGods added lightning damage. There's no reason not to, really, 2 skill points isn't going to break the build for a little damage increase. And more damage is all good baby.
If going all enchant then why not just prebuff instead of expensive gear like arachs? I mean, really, you can easely prebuff ench with an extra 10+ skills.
Eilo Rytyj
23-12-2007, 06:25
Yeah, but Arach's also has the +5% max mana (nice for ES), 20% FCR needed to get to 63%, and 10% slows target, which is great for reducing the threat of the monsters you hit. The +1 skill is just gravy for boosting Warmth and Fire/Cold/Lightning Masterys and Static Field.
Yes it might be "expensive" but if you've got it, flaunt it.
Arachs is great, although i use a crafted belt that (in my opinion and with the specific built i have) can rival with arachs.
(Probably have more chance at finding an arach then crafting a belt wich can rival with it though)
Thx for all the good ideas. I will not try to get the fundings for dual dream for this char, however. I really started to like the idea of Kingslayer, and yes, it does get boosted really nice from masteries, but maybe just going with Enchant+Phys dmg should do it, I mean, I could allways teleport away from impossible fights. Again, couldn't something like a Spirited Cold Iron Wolf help me out quite a bit, or will the Might merc be better of?
About FCR rings with leech, I acctually crafted this baby a few days ago, and the more I think about it, the more perfect for this build I find it (still, it's a little low on the leech, and no ML at all... :undecided:)
Chaos Turn
lvl req: 59
10% FCR
+5% Attack rating
+3% LL
+9 STR
+18 life
+54 Mana
+5 Light radius
I guess that a plain +1XX ar would have been of greater help than this, since it would have been bosted by Enchant, and this just stacks, right? Any way this feels like something I could put to full use :)
The idea for my Kingslayer variant would be something like this:
Silveredge axe Kingslayer (or maybe Cryptic Sword + spirit)
Vipermagi
Arach
the above listed ring+raven
LoH
Gores
Guillis Face
Highlords
Or perhaps to beef my res up a bit go with 2 or 3 (guess which) pieces from IKs set. I'd be having 60 FCR without spirit but a frame slower max BP with sword (I realized that the "speed bonus" thingie is that with the 2hand axes, poles and mauls has a 9 FPA as max speed while 1handers only get 10 as max). But I'm affraid that reaching that last axe BP isn't possible without Treachery, if I wanna keep the Guillis. Do I still need the guillis? If I go with Kingsslayer the need for the CB isn't that big since I will have multiple element attacks, right? I hear WTs add nicely to the Veng dmg, and a Shako would add some cool skills for my Vengence skill along with all the other things that makes the hat famous. Hey, just realized, Andariels Visage would be cool, right? Whatcha think? =) something like:
Andys (IAS jool)
Highlords
Silveredge axe (KS)
Viper (IAS jool)
Arach
WTs
The same rings as before
LoH
I would be getting 130 IAs, and thus hitting last bp, but be stuck at 40 FCR. But this is at least only one frame away from the "minimum" of 63 FCR. My res would be somewhat lowish but with some nice charms and a nice ES I might be able to do it, what do you think?
Summerfun
23-12-2007, 22:11
Actually zeal consists of 3 animations: the 1st swing, the follow up swing and the end swing. For the penultimate breakpoint they are respectively 6, 8 and 11 frames. Now to make things easier to write down, X is added to the 1st swing to make it equal to the follow ups and X is subtracted from the end swing (6+2 and 11-2 gives 9/8 zeal (yes in reality the 9 is the last attack, not the first, although it's not actually 9, but 11 frames).
The last zeal BP gives, respectively, 6, 7 and 11 frame animations. When we make the first swing equal to the follow ups we get (6+1, 11-1) 10/7 zeal. So in reality the end animation is not slower, it's just an easier way of writing down the breakpoints.
You can check the zeal EIAS breakpoints on the AB.
Does that mean that the break points look like this:
6+8+8+8+11 = 41 frames for a full attack
6+7+7+7+11 = 38 frames for a full attack
Does that mean that the break points look like this:
6+8+8+8+11 = 41 frames for a full attack
6+7+7+7+11 = 38 frames for a full attack
Correct. :smiley:
Summerfun
24-12-2007, 16:39
so going from 54 ias to 65 ias only makes your attack 3 frames faster.
thats 3/25 sec. Thats nothing
ok, thx for the answers about the zeal bps, could someone try to answer my other question, plz? =)
sirpoopsalot
24-12-2007, 21:53
Well, I'll try, but not having tried either of these yet, I'm speculating as much as anything :grin:.
I've often wondered if Iron Wolves might be a really solid merc for sorceresses, but in the end I don't think they will. For the most part, an Act2 merc is just too thorough of a helper (they can attract/distract monsters, survive quite well, and even kill reasonably well, not to mention the help of their auras and their flexibility finding/customizing viable equipment). Act3 mercs are going to be doing less damage than Act2 merc against a smaller number of monsters (since physical immunities are less common than c/l/f), they don't attract/distract monsters quite as well, and they sure as hell don't survive as well when they get swarmed.
So, the plain-ol'-boring Might Merc gets my vote - especially if you choose a two-handed Vengeance approach, since you'll want as much crowd-control and crowd-distraction as he can give.
As for that ring, IMO the lack of mana leech isn't a huge problem if you choose the Physical/Passion approach. You'll have insane regeneration with Warmth, and other than ES and teleport, you won't really need mana. With Vengeance, ML is definitely a little more of a need.
I guess until you decide entirely on your other equipment it's hard to isolate the things you're most lacking and build from those - this might be the perfect ring, or it could be beaten by a simple BKWB.
And I like the second setup quite a bit better. Vengeance is such a slow attack, and with two-handed you're going to be so suseptible to getting hit that you'll want to maximize every chance for getting an uninterrupted attack off. I think (because of the slower attack) that you won't gain as much from CB with the Vengeance approach, so it could be sacrificed more easily, compared to Zeal/Passion.
With that setup though, one thing that you're seriously lacking is mana leech. I think that'll limit you to an Insight merc (not necessarily a bad thing, but...)
I'm not sure if you'd maintain your top attack speed, but I'd be tempted to swap the Highlord's for a Cresent Moon (amulet) to help the mana leech, or maybe the LoH for some crafted/rare gloves. Ideally, if you could land a nice pair of gloves with dual-leech, IAS, and resists (and maybe even CB), they'd probably surpass LoH.
Another thing that you may want to get, even if it's from charms, is Faster Hit Recovery. Having ES will help you a lot, but sorcs have such horribly slow hit recovery and two-handed sorcs are so prone to being successfully attacked, that a little FHR is always a smart idea. My DemonMachine/ranged enchantress didn't have ES to help, but FHR was a very big thing for her, and I was always wishing I'd had more. If you go melee, it's surely going to come up.
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