Whirlwind and Blade Fury build similarities

[Ax2Grind]

I've looked through six Assassin builds referring to Whirlwind or Blade Fury in various forms and found them to have very close to the same skill set and gear choices. With the exceptions found in very specific variants, I have come to some conclusions and would like input:

Blade Fury and Whirlwind benefit most from Claw Mastery, then from Venom, giving two types of quick damage (along with gear-based enhancements).
Because of this, Shadow Master is better than Warrior to deal with possible physical/poison immunes, as the latter copies your skills and the former has its own, providing the best chance for a third damage type at very high levels.
Whirlwind rules mean Burst of Speed and other off-weapon increases are useless to it and Blade Fury, which has a static six-frame attack, while Fade may have some advantage beyond a single point depending on gear.
Mind Blast and Psychic Hammer are dependent on cast speed, which is not in either build set-up, and would take up far too much time and mana to use if beyond a wonder point.
Cloak of Shadows, as I've read in one of the guides, can't override itself, so any targets coming into range after an initial casting aren't affected by the lowered defense modifier, making a very high-level skill somewhat frustrating to certain players.
Blade Shield is invaluable for its additional damage and leech potential while attacking, but skill boosts should make it and Weapon Block sufficient at low levels.
Blade Sentinel is best with a complete Trap build as a third form of damage against fire/lightning immunes - a prerequisite only.
Death Sentry, though valuable as a corpse remover, detracts from the main purpose of either build except as a variant, but even then tactics and gear should provide alternative ways of dealing with shamans and returns rather than taking unnecessary trap-laying time.
Other traps aren't very useful and Martial Arts as a whole are a waste of skills outside a theme or PvP concept - even then only the non-elemental attacks are suggested requiring serious investment to attain damage and other advantages, such as teleportation (thus taking away from the main techniques of Blade Fury and Whirlwind).If these are true for the most part, then I would assume the following skill allocation needs little alteration, then depending mostly on gear or variants:

Psychic Hammer = 1
Cloak of Shadows ~ 6
Claw Mastery = 20
Weapon Block ~ 6
Shadow Warrior = 1
Shadow Master = 20
Burst of Speed = 1
Fade ~ 6
Venom = 20
Fire Blast = 1
Wake of Fire = 1
Blade Sentinel = 1
Blade Fury = 20
Blade Shield ~ 6Suggestions as to overall level of several of these skills, like the durations of Cloak of Shadows versus Blade Shield or Fade versus Venom, are needed to hone this. Two-claw builds may need more points into Weapon Block or more skill bonuses, players already having Chaos may want to take points out of Blade Fury, since that's basically a poor-man's choice, and so on. Any help is appreciated as I'd like to at least start this build this morning, and maybe a group effort can make a build heirarchy possible for the Guide Thread.

[stephan]

20 in blade fury is pretty pointless, the damage increase is simply not worth it. Relying on a Shadow to deal with immunes isn't a real good idea either, her damage is really not that high. You're better of with the CtC orb and magic damage from chaos there.

Basically, whatever Assassin build you play, if you want to play her at her most effective she is just going to be a corpse provider for DS. And since you are wasting your points around in Blade Shield (pretty pointless skill for PvM anyway), CoS and Blade Fury, I don't see any reason not to get a few in DS (and get 1 in mind blast as well).

Also don't forget that Blade Shield is completely pointless (evenmore than it already is) with Blade Fury. Furysins don't get anywhere near an enemy.

I do think you are correct though that there are quite similarities between BF and WW, especially in the case of sins. It is certainly something to look into some more.

[Ax2Grind]

20 in blade fury is pretty pointless, the damage increase is simply not worth it. Relying on a Shadow to deal with immunes isn't a real good idea either, her damage is really not that high. You're better of with the CtC orb and magic damage from chaos there.
Blade Fury doesn't have to be maxed, but this isn't a build you only make when you have at least one Chaos. You can make the build as an early Blade Fury and be quite effective, as the other designs show, but change gear when high enough or finally (perhaps later in the season) getting a high runeword and revisit it instead of making an entirely new character.

As few monsters are both physical and poison immune, a mercenary and Shadow Master, along with hitpowers and something on switch, can allow you to deal with them. I never suggested relying on a Master, but the combined effort of all three - especially if you don't have Chaos - should be fine with the right tactics.
Basically, whatever Assassin build you play, if you want to play her at her most effective she is just going to be a corpse provider for DS. And since you are wasting your points around in Blade Shield (pretty pointless skill for PvM anyway), CoS and Blade Fury, I don't see any reason not to get a few in DS (and get 1 in mind blast as well).
Casting Mind Blast, Blade Shield, Cloak of Shadows, possibly Fade and Venom depending how long ago they were cast, then one or more Death Sentries... I'm pretty sure the Sorceress behind you would've thinned the herd by the time you get all of those off with low cast rate.

As for abandoning those skills, Cloak of Shadows is a virtual necessity since Blade Fury and Whirlwind both suffer from low attack ratings even with a maxed Claw Mastery, assuming we're not talking about having a Fool's Runic Talons, and a decent Cloak with skill boosts should allow the player to hone the timing of it.

I addressed Blade Fury above, and I'll talk about Blade Shield below, but in order for Death Sentry to be effective it needs more than a few points or more than one layed to cover a decent area, and still doesn't appear as effective for the time spent actually fighting. Perhaps I'd think differently if I had a Chaos and tried it, but I believe only one build of the six had it listed at more than one. Like Mind Blast, that makes it either a one-point option/unnecessary or a full-blown variant, and I'll probably need to play the build myself to find that out.
Also don't forget that Blade Shield is completely pointless (evenmore than it already is) with Blade Fury. Furysins don't get anywhere near an enemy.
Blade Shield is low and isn't an option for Whirlwind - it's a necessity. Leeching, defense, blocking and damage reduction are the only life savers in that skill, as with Barbarians potions are unusable during the attack. Blade Shield is listed as a leeching skill, and so it does more damage to monsters untouched by the weapon itself and keeps you alive in the process. It also only uses 'on Attack' hitpowers, opposite of Fury's 'on Striking' limitation, so it allows the full spectrum of abilities as a whole.

Since few points are suggested, it's very possible to hold off putting more than one into it until Chaos is gauranteed, but saying it's completely pointless isn't fair. Strafers aren't supposed to get near the enemy, but when you play with other people, especially those who don't know how to play, or when facing monsters who charge suddenly mid-attack, a defensive skill based - like your offensive skill - on your weapon is just as much a life saver and worth the investment if the build has a gear rebirth.
I do think you are correct though that there are quite similarities between BF and WW, especially in the case of sins. It is certainly something to look into some more.
That's the point: Blade Fury as a ranged attack as monsters slowly creep toward you, initially firing while they're still offscreen, then when they get close enough for the mercenary and/or Shadow Master to bunch them up, switch to Whirlwind and go through them. This should mean less damage taken, faster killing speed, and usually no need for Mind Blast or Death Sentry. Besides, how do you Whirlwind monsters that fly over rivers and other obstacles that prohibit movement? Seems like those similarities in the builds would pretty much marry the two skills still leaving preferential variant space. That's what I want to delve into after honing the ideal centrist build here, and a build heirarchy would simplify it for everyone.

[stephan]

Blade Fury doesn't have to be maxed, but this isn't a build you only make when you have at least one Chaos. You can make the build as an early Blade Fury and be quite effective, as the other designs show, but change gear when high enough or finally (perhaps later in the season) getting a high runeword and revisit it instead of making an entirely new character.
Maxing Blade Fury is just as much a waste when you don't have a Chaos. The damage gain is simply too small to be worth 20 points.

As few monsters are both physical and poison immune, a mercenary and Shadow Master, along with hitpowers and something on switch, can allow you to deal with them. I never suggested relying on a Master, but the combined effort of all three - especially if you don't have Chaos - should be fine with the right tactics.
With a Baranar's or Gimmershred on switch you really don't need the master. It is possibly the most overrated minion in the game. She is really not that smart that she starts using phoenix 1 whenever there is physical/poison immune around.

Casting Mind Blast, Blade Shield, Cloak of Shadows, possibly Fade and Venom depending how long ago they were cast, then one or more Death Sentries... I'm pretty sure the Sorceress behind you would've thinned the herd by the time you get all of those off with low cast rate.
So what? A budget meteorb will deal with mobs faster than you anyway. The lightning traps are the only skills that compare with a sorc in killing speed. You will kill a lot faster with 20 in DS and 1 in BF than with 20 in BF and 0 in DS. Trust me on this one, I have played a few furysins before.

As for abandoning those skills, Cloak of Shadows is a virtual necessity since Blade Fury and Whirlwind both suffer from low attack ratings even with a maxed Claw Mastery, assuming we're not talking about having a Fool's Runic Talons, and a decent Cloak with skill boosts should allow the player to hone the timing of it.
I wasn't telling to abandon the skills, I was suggesting to not waste too many points in them, especially when you still have DS to max.

I addressed Blade Fury above, and I'll talk about Blade Shield below, but in order for Death Sentry to be effective it needs more than a few points or more than one layed to cover a decent area, and still doesn't appear as effective for the time spent actually fighting. Perhaps I'd think differently if I had a Chaos and tried it, but I believe only one build of the six had it listed at more than one.
If you have never used DS you shouldn't dismiss it so quickly. Again, an assassins job is providing corpes for it. If you have a build that can make corpses and have 10-20 points left for DS, your build can't fail.

Like Mind Blast, that makes it either a one-point option/unnecessary or a full-blown variant, and I'll probably need to play the build myself to find that out.
DS can be used as a 1 point wonder, but more points help greatly.

Blade Shield is low and isn't an option for Whirlwind - it's a necessity. Leeching, defense, blocking and damage reduction are the only life savers in that skill, as with Barbarians potions are unusable during the attack.
Blade shield doesn't provide any defense, nor does it provide any blocking or damage reduction. The only thing it does is make a hit check at 1/4 of your weapon damage, one time per second. It doesn't even transfer OW, CB or anything else. If you are taking a 1/4 of your low physical damage, at 1 time per second that's not going to add up to an awful amount of damage/leech. So it seems Blade Shield does very little you want with WW.

Since few points are suggested, it's very possible to hold off putting more than one into it until Chaos is gauranteed, but saying it's completely pointless isn't fair. Strafers aren't supposed to get near the enemy, but when you play with other people, especially those who don't know how to play, or when facing monsters who charge suddenly mid-attack, a defensive skill based - like your offensive skill - on your weapon is just as much a life saver and worth the investment if the build has a gear rebirth.
Strafers don't have CoS and MB. The only situation where a Furysin should get hit by a melee attacker is in a stair trap, but there MB is almost a necessity. But then Blade Shield is hardly a defensive skill.

It seems you are putting some things together from a few guides without ever having played an Assassin. I don't think that is the right way to go around making a build.

[Ax2Grind]

The difference between the Claw Mastery and Blade Fury is a percentage versus fixed increase. At lower levels, long before being able to use Chaos or elite claws entirely, points into Fury add more damage than Mastery assuming you're using a claw (LLD), whereas if the player chooses not to Fury with a claw, the bonus from the skill works better all the time (your Baranar example) - both make it fantastic, but I agree Mastery wins in late game if only spending twenty-one. The problem is you have more than that, so allowing the player to make the choice for a trap variant is best, keeping to the central build design I've offered. Again, if you have your gear planned out, adjusting the skills to fit the gear is more appropriate, and a well-written guide explains that as well as other options. This is intended to be an all-in-one concept (I haven't yet added the options for Bowsins - ugh, I actually typed that).

The way you tell it, though, every Assassin should use Death Sentry (and every Necromancer should use Corpse Explosion). If all this class is is a corpse provider, then there should be a definitive way of providing at least one or two corpses ultra-fast and let the trap do the work - all other builds are far less useful for PvM. If that's the case, then I think I'll pass on making any more Assassins from now on, as that just doesn't sound like fun - especially to people not dealing in high runes.

As for Blade Shield, I didn't mean to suggest it gave defense or resistances or anything else, just that you're vulnerable while using Whirlwind, and without other Barbarian skills an Assassin needs all the help she can get (read: leech).

[stephan]

The difference between the Claw Mastery and Blade Fury is a percentage versus fixed increase. At lower levels, long before being able to use Chaos or elite claws entirely, points into Fury add more damage than Mastery assuming you're using a claw (LLD), whereas if the player chooses not to Fury with a claw, the bonus from the skill works better all the time (your Baranar example) - both make it fantastic, but I agree Mastery wins in late game if only spending twenty-one.
I guess you don't understand the damage bonus from blade fury. You spend 20 skill points for 100 damage. The added damage from blade fury does not get boosted by off weapon %ED or strength/dex bonusses. 100 damage is what you get. Whether you are using claws or not has nothing to do with it.


The way you tell it, though, every Assassin should use Death Sentry (and every Necromancer should use Corpse Explosion). If all this class is is a corpse provider, then there should be a definitive way of providing at least one or two corpses ultra-fast and let the trap do the work - all other builds are far less useful for PvM. If that's the case, then I think I'll pass on making any more Assassins from now on, as that just doesn't sound like fun - especially to people not dealing in high runes.
Of course Assassins don't have to use DS. But the reason you give for dismissing it (suggesting it would slow down killing speed) is simply plain wrong, as it does the opposite. Neither WW or Blade Fury allow you to hit more than target at a time, so it seems to me an AoE spell is very welcome.

[Ax2Grind]

You missed the part that says 'percentage versus fixed' with regard to using a claw with Blade Fury, low-end and otherwise. This is supposed to be a guide for the overall build and I haven't suggested slight alterations for low-level dueling as I did with the Exemplar build for Paladins.

It's the skill boosts that give you higher bonuses with high-end weapons of all types, since you'd be using them to push Whirlwind, Guided Arrow, Teleport and such up anyway. I was going on the assumption from other websites that the damage ramps Firestorm-style, but if you're saying it doesn't (they've been wrong before and some still are), then those points may well be wasted and I'll concede its uselessness.

Also, I never doubted the killing effect of Death Sentry, I'm challenging the point of using it and Mind Blast in every build under the sun. If you're stating Mind Blast and Death Sentry are staples of any Assassin build, and require at least a single point with prerequisites, then I'll have to rethink my entire outlook on the class and its play techniques.

Perhaps I need to see these builds in action a bit more, or perhaps you're referring only to Baal runs (lay traps, wave spawns, Whirlwind once, repeat). That gives plenty of time to prep, but that's not the overarching idea I'm going after - it's not killing speed, but using the other skills you've invested points into that's my failure to grasp.

Questions: if Sentry is grabbing 80% of the kills, what's the point of getting Chaos over being a trap build when you only Whirlwind once a minute? Doesn't Shadow Master use Death Sentry and Mind Blast, or are the other sites wrong about that, too?