A(nother) tournament idea

[Merlin The Wizzard]

Yes ladies and gentlepeeps, and also, not so gentle peeps.

Brilliance once again raced past my window, but I was quick enough to pick up one of the faint lingering wisps of it, together with a healthy amount of car pollution :laugh:

Next to a coughing bout which knocked the paint from my ceiling, it also left me with the inspiration for yet another tourney... Which will not be launched in the immediate future, dont worry. We have a slight overabundance of open tourneys at the moment...

Ok, here goes.

The specialist tourney

The basic idea
Pick a character. For this character, 5 skills must be selected. Three of these skills at random. These are the only skills to be used in the build.

Skill selecshun
1st skill Any one of the lvl 1 or lvl 6 tier skills, selected at random.
2nd skill You get to select the second skill. It must make sense, in so far, you must be able to explain why you picked the second skill, with regard to the first one. So for instance, if you use a druid and you get a Molten Boulder as your 1st skill, picking a Grizzly for your second skill isn't really an option (doesn't really tie in with the concept). But if you pick a synergy (such as Firestorm or Volcano or Fissure) this is permissable.
This should be listed in a post before selecting the next three skills.
third skill/fourth skill Both random. Needless to say, skills already picked must be rerolled.
5th skill You get to pick again. Once again, it has to be a logical choice given the other skills. Or at least, logical to you and explainable as such to the rest. Sell it!

- You can put one point into any skill prerequisite. If you NEED to use another skill in order to make sense of one of the rolled skills, then that should be your fifth pick.

Lets take the druid from the previous example. First roll, molten boulder. Second pick, Fissure, because Molten Boulder synergises it, and it stands alone.
Third roll, random, raven.
Fourth roll, random, Hunger.
Fifth skill Should be Werewolf (otherwise hunger cant be used). If I had rolled Oak sage, for example, a skill such as Volcano or Firestorm or perhaps a poison creeper (whatever you feel is good for the build) could be used. Just as long as you can tie it together with the skills rolled.

THESE ARE THE ONLY SKILLS THE CHARACTER IS ALLOWED TO USE
What does that mean? Simple, any item with a CtC skill on it that is not in your skilllist can't be used. All other items can be used, but those with skillcharges on them cannot be used up. So no teleporting for nonsorceressess, etc.

Levelling up
The last restrictions. For levelling up, the following applies. First skill to hit 20 should be the first pick. All other skills from your list may have a max of 3 points in them at that time. (So in my example, I am allowed to hit 20 on Molten Boulder with 3 in Fissure, Raven, Hunger, and Werewolf). Next skill to hit 20 is the second skill, all other skills may have max of 5. Third is the 3rd skill, the others may have max 8, fourth is the fourth (duh), at that time the fifth may be max 10. Then, bring the fifth to 20. Allthough I doubt you well ever get there level wise :P


Other rules that can apply are basic tourney rules. Now, this is obviously PvM. It struck me, however, that such a build could be a challenge for a PvP tourney as well. So I had the following extension in mind.
Pat or Mat the character build (yes, SC). This should be done within a certain timespan (two months or so?) Every one interested in the PvP part that has finished the build, are automatically enrolled. A small tourney will take place, where each player gets to duel with all others. The total victor (with the most points gathered) will then get one itempick from each of the other found item stashes.

Now, this may need some reworking. For now, I am mainly interested in whether or not you guys like the idea, and if you have suggestions/improvements on the basic concept. I wont launch it forthwith, not until at least some of the open tourneys in the tournament thread have closed, mine included.

[Grisu]

The basic idea reminds me of Wolron's Obession tournament (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=522343).

I like the part about PvP though :)
especially since restrictions aren't too harsh, one should be able to mat/pat his character.
Not sure if I would join such a tournament though, since I still have 5 obsession tournament characters to guardian :grin:

EDIT: Well, actually it also has the random element from Vang's Random tournament. (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=542568)

But as I already said, the PvP aspect is what makes this tournament sound interesting...rules are easy to comprehend, so it looks like a lot of people might join in :)

[Merlin The Wizzard]

Thnx Grisu.The inspiration for this tourney was actually a poker hand, where you have 2 cards and get several random ones, and hope to make a good combo :P
But I think it doesn't really matter... Judging from the amount of response here, and the participation ni my other tourney, I conclude that I have little future in trying to think up new tourney ideas. Others are probably much better suited. I'll be a participant from now on :P

[Grisu]

Well, I think the Bountyhunter tournament is a blast, and this one looks quite fun, too! Don't let yourself get discouraged! There are probably too much tournaments going on already, so keep that one in mind for later on maybe - you can already try to think about a PvP system for this tournament, and even if you're not going to give this one a try, you can still use it for other tournaments :smiley:

Keep the ideas coming! :thumbsup:


Thnx Grisu.The inspiration for this tourney was actually a poker hand, where you have 2 cards and get several random ones, and hope to make a good combo :P
I didn't want to make it sound like you did copy the idea :lipsrsealed: - it just reminded me of those two tournaments. :) But now that you mention it - it is indeed some kind of "poker game" to be found here. maybe you can develop the idea a bit further from that point on?:scratch:

[Merlin The Wizzard]

Well, I think the Bountyhunter tournament is a blast, and this one looks quite fun, too! Don't let yourself get discouraged! There are probably too much tournaments going on already, so keep that one in mind for later on maybe - you can already try to think about a PvP system for this tournament, and even if you're not going to give this one a try, you can still use it for other tournaments


Glad to hear you think its a good tourney Grisu! And you may very well be right about the number of tourneys that are allready going, but I couldn't help but notice that other tourneys, which started later then mine, still got a lot of attnetion. I do not mean to sound petulant (but I do, I know), it's just a response to your remark.
As for this tourney, I wanted to gauge the idea, and listen to the responses. I'm sure not everyone (myself included) would want to go PvP. In that case, with too few PvP enrollments I would have made the rules a bit harder (HC, single pass). With enough interest for both, I would have made it a split competition. With this amount of interest, I will let the idea die a calm death :undecided:



I didn't want to make it sound like you did copy the idea :lipsrsealed: - it just reminded me of those two tournaments. :) But now that you mention it - it is indeed some kind of "poker game" to be found here. maybe you can develop the idea a bit further from that point on?

I on the other hand didn't want to imlpy that you made it sound like I copied the idea. :smiley:
Actually, I dont think there is anything wrong with copying the premise of a good tourney though (as I'm sure the recent 12 days for Xmas, Pindleton, Mephaton tourney creators will agree with). It's just that I didn't copy it... I truly believe it could be done, having two skill options yourself, and having to tie them in with 3 randomly chosen skills in such a way that the total blend can be succesful in the PvM (and perhaps PvP) competition.

But it's relatively pointless to continue this discussion. thanks again for the encouragement. It's appreciated. Don't worry, I will stay with the bountyhunters tourney till the bitter (or, more hopefully, glorious :laugh: ) end. But that is probably the last tournament for me.

[midnightvulture]

I don't think that you should let this die...I was interested but hadn't taken time to say anything yet. I think you could even develop the poker analogy a bit more as Grisu suggested. I just think there is a glut of tournaments right now. And look how long it took the dueces wild tourney to start up....I'd give this one a bit more time and thought before giving up; even tournaments with small turnouts can be fun.

mv

[Merlin The Wizzard]

Another response :P Thanks! As for the rest, well, it was (rightly so!) pointed out to me that The bountyhunters heaven tourney was overburdened by rules. To such an extent even now the participants (namely cute little dragon avatar above :P )had to ask about the rules, because certain aspects were unclear.

That is why I wanted to keep it as basic as possible, unless people have ideas on how to improve it... Actually, I think it can be pretty challenging, and it forces people into pretty unconventional builds.
I tried designing a couple of chars myself, a barb abd a sorc to be exact,
and I got

The barb:
Skill 1 : Bash
Skill 2 : Concentrate (Synergizes with Bash)
Skill 3 : Spear mastery
Skill 4 : Battle Cry
Skill 5 : Taunt (The main tactic would be to taunt 1 enemy while the tank is occupied with the rest, and use Concentrate and Battle cry to quickly kill him)

Sorc :

Skill 1 : Warmth (oh goody :P )
Skill 2 : Teleport (I could have picked almost any skill here and explain it away... I just feel that Tele is incredibly important to almost any sorc build, and one of the most useful skills in the game, imho)
Skill 3 : Glacial Spike
Skill 4 : Fire Wall
Skill 5 : Fire Mastery (Here I could have gone for Static Field as well, but I need some sort of damaging skill... Too bad Glacial spike wasnt the fourth skill :P)

The best way to select the skills? Well, coin tosses (First toss to determine tree, second toss to determine skill) or www.random.org

[Gahzban]

Why not assigning a stat to a skill...

Let say you have strength for skill 1, vita for skill 2, etc... and now the tourney could get a little step further...

Gahz

[GueLerMe]

Heh, you could give points also in a poker-style. A good "hand" would give less points than a "bad" hand.

For example, when your skills end up all around the place, it'd be similar to a Flush. A Sorc with Firebolt, Fireball, Glacial Spike, Charged Bolt and Ice Bolt or something like that.

[Merlin The Wizzard]

@Gazh : While the concept is nice, I dont really think it would fit in with the spirit of this tourney, for several reasons :

1) The less rules, the better. Your suggestion adds an additional layer of complication.
2) It would create rather similar builds. Since evryone will have the third three skills maxed by the time they hit hell, they would also have 20 stats in 3 stat options (such as 100 str, 100 vit, 100 Energy), for example.
3) Keeping that in mind, by hand of the suggested stat selection, certain characters may be shunned or preferred. For instance, if I made the selection a) energy b) vitality c)dexterity d)strength, I doubt many would choose a barb, whereas a sorceress is much more viable.


@Guelerme - Scoring you mean? Oh, I had an idea for that... At least, the Pvp part. the PvM I wasn't sure.

[Gahzban]

@Gazh : While the concept is nice, I dont really think it would fit in with the spirit of this tourney, for several reasons :

1) The less rules, the better. Your suggestion adds an additional layer of complication.
2) It would create rather similar builds. Since evryone will have the third three skills maxed by the time they hit hell, they would also have 20 stats in 3 stat options (such as 100 str, 100 vit, 100 Energy), for example.
3) Keeping that in mind, by hand of the suggested stat selection, certain characters may be shunned or preferred. For instance, if I made the selection a) energy b) vitality c)dexterity d)strength, I doubt many would choose a barb, whereas a sorceress is much more viable.


You could be surpised what anyone choose.

To fit the spirit of the tourney you could always assigned random stat with those random skill :rolleyes: That would fit the poker spirit and specialisation. But thats ok... I will keep an eye on the tour idea because the basic has something to inspire me :rolleyes:


Gahz

[wakiki]

By the way, just a piece of advice that I thought of. Format your rules well. For examples of good formatting, check Cattleya's tourney linked in the tournament FAQ. Or, check my No Vit tournament. (I copied Cattleya's format.)

[TheReadMenace]

I came up with an adaptation, if you'd like to hear it. However, it does provide the situation where most of the characters have will be very similar... but that only means the tournament will probably be won by a person with skill, not luck!

So you're thinking about a Poker theme? How about this, then? Think Hold 'Em style play. Every person who enters announces their class (barb, sorc, etc.) when they register. From there, everyone is allocated two random skills... consider this their "hole cards" or "down cards". From there, a set of random community skills for each class are provided, much like the flop, turn, and river. From there, each person can choose their own five most liked skills from either their two random skills and the five community skills. OR, they are forced to use their two random skills and then choose only three of the five community skills.

It'd be cool IMO, but maybe rather short-lived. If, say, the five community skills for sorcs are more cohesive than the five skills for barbs, I can see some major misbalances between classes. However, the two random allocated skills at the very start may make things reaaally interesting.

Who knows? Just throwing things out there. I'll shut up now. :laugh:

[wakiki]

That's a cool idea TRM. You could carefully select the community skills to make each class interesting, and could make a whole new tournament out of it.

[Merlin The Wizzard]

@Wakiki - Thanks for the suggestion. PArt of my problem is my poor grasp of the english language, which forces me to make convoluted sentences to get otherwise simple suggestions across. Part of the problem is my disorganized personality. PArt of the problem is that this is merely a suggestion thread, in which I outline the idea and first wait for input. If/When this idea springs into 'full tourney mode', be sure that I will do my utmost best to format the rules in an as comprehensive style as possible for me.

@Gazh - I so want to be surprised by the builds people choose.. .hence the skill idea. Only five skills is pretty minimalistic, and if three of those are chosen at random, it forces some well thought out and unconventional builds (Just look at the barb suggestion I came up with... not exactly a run of the mill one :)

@TheReadMenace - Oh, sweetness! I love that idea. I love it as much as I love mine, actually. But it's not just an improvement, it's a whole different flavor of tournament. Your idea deserves a tourney of it's own, you know. So here's the deal: I will now take up your idea, but force the players to use their random skills and select three skills from the set of five (I like that idea best, actually). If people agree with your idea (seems like it) and show desire to play in a tourney inspired by it, I will start the tourney with your idea instead of mine, and give you due credit. :P
Otherwise, I will get back to my original idea. Let me know how you feel about that idea.

Actually, my idea was more inspired by Draw Poker (the only type of Poker I ever played), with some leniency because the players need to have some flexibility (the two skill choices they can make) to create/perfect their build. After all, it must survive. :P

[TheReadMenace]

@TheReadMenace - Oh, sweetness! I love that idea. I love it as much as I love mine, actually. But it's not just an improvement, it's a whole different flavor of tournament. Your idea deserves a tourney of it's own, you know. So here's the deal: I will now take up your idea, but force the players to use their random skills and select three skills from the set of five (I like that idea best, actually). If people agree with your idea (seems like it) and show desire to play in a tourney inspired by it, I will start the tourney with your idea instead of mine, and give you due credit. :P
Otherwise, I will get back to my original idea. Let me know how you feel about that idea.

I'm totally cool with it. I had been trying to come up with ideas for a tourney last summer, and I failed miserably. Glad someone feels I had a moment of inspiration! I have been redeemed!!! :grin:

And I'm glad you want to spearhead the revised idea. I'm too flaky to run a tournament. You'd better expect me to play when you get this thing off the ground!

But I'll side with wakiki (second time today!): I think the five predetermined community skills for each class should be chosen wisely to allow for variety between each build. If you just do random skills, imagine how crappy some builds might be. Hypothetical Barb: 2 weapon masteries, Grim Ward, and Bash? No one would go for it. If you want someone to throw some ideas off of for which skills might be best, feel free to PM me. We can do some tourney collaboration!

[Merlin The Wizzard]

I'll probably repost the community skills I intend to use, so you can all shoot at them anyways :P If you wish to give your selection, you can PM me of course. Your idea will most certainly be seriously considered!
But remember that the original concept probably called for even wackier builds! What I liked about it was that it would force any character to think really carefully about a viable build to beat Hell Baal with and to do good PvP... Against other untwinked, limited builds. Since 5 skills will be presented per char, and only three can be picked, there is enough choice there to attune a good build :P

But there are so many tourney's open atm (just check the tourney listing), and Heskla just opened another one as well. In order to make this any kind of viable PvP, we need more then just 3 or 4 participants (8 or so being a minimum I'd say) So I'm going to wait for launching it until some other tourney's have closed (such as 12days after xmas, and, if it is still going, the mephathon... No vitality just gained 2 new participants, so that might take a while yet).

[Merlin The Wizzard]

Here is a suggestion for the 'community' skills :P
One thing first. TWO things I aim at : 1) at most two skills in any one tree. 2) Witht he community skills, no cheesy builds can be 'easily' made. (Cheesy being.. err... tried and true)

AMAZON
Bow And Crossbow - 1) Fire Arrow 2) Magic Arrow
PAssive and Magic - 1) Critical Strike 2) Decoy
Spear and Javelin - 1) Jab

ASSASSIN
Martial Arts - 1) Cobra Strike 2) Dragon Tail
Shadow Disciplines - 1) Cloak of Shadows 2) Venom
Traps - Fire Blast

NECROMANCER
Summon - 1) Clay Golem
Poison and Bone - 1) Bone Shield 2) Poison Nova
Curses - 1) Amplify Damage 2) Lower Resist

BARBARIAN
Combat Skills - 1) Bash
Combat Masteries - 1) Any MAstery 2) Iron Skin
Warcries - 1) Shout 2) Warcry

PALADIN (I might make a booboo here)
Combat Skills - 1) Smite
Offensive Aura - 1) Blessed Aim 2) Might
Defensive Auras - 1) Redemption 2) Resist Cold

SORCERESS
Fire Skills - 1) FireBall 2) Fire Mastery
Cold Skills - 1) ANY Armor
Lightning Skills - 1) Nova 2) Teleport

DRUID
Shape Shifting - 1) Werewolf 2) Maul
Summoning - 1) Dire Wolf 2) Heart of Wolverine
Elemental - Tornado

Let me know if you have questions, or suggestions/imporvements