Frenzy Barb, Main attack: Double Swing?

[Kareeser]

Hey all,

I'm fairly new to D2, having only played it way back in the beginning, and quit because my level 24 necro sucked more than andariel on an off day.

So I have a level ~75ish Barb with maxed out Frenzy and Double Swing. I have Frenzy as my left click, and double-swing as my right.

I noticed that while Frenzy delivers more damage, Double swing attacks much faster. I've also noticed that while you have to "charge up" Frenzy to get to the max attack/IAS, I can still charge up frenzy by double-swinging an enemy to death! All I would have to do is hit something with Frenzy every 5.9 seconds.

So my question is, is it viable to be using double-swing as my main attack, and only using Frenzy for its charge-up bonus? Or do you guys use Frenzy exclusively, and put points into DS just for the synergy?

(I believe I have 30 to 40% IAS from Sigon's Gauntlets/Greaves + 1 other item. Crappy, I know, but I'm even worse without them.)

Thanks! :)

- Kareeser
Getting pwnt by Tainted in Hell

[studmuffinkelv]

First: what's your main weapon (above your gloves), how much IAS is on it, and what's your off hand weapon?

Second: Although double swing attacks faster that your current frenzy, frenzy has a good damage bonus and the double swing damage bonus is piddly (mine's at 90%ed while frenzy is ~480%ed).

[MalVeauX]

Heya,

Instead of focusing on the higher damage, you could take advantage of the speed of double swing, and use weaopns & gear with Crushing Blow. Double swing their life into the dirt with high Crush, and watch them melt before you. You could instead use Conc as a 2nd attack, since it will be synergized with BO to finish off things with higher life after you crush them to death, or just max Frenzy and use that as a higher damage source for the finishing touch to killing off a strong baddy. The normal uglies will die fast and you won't need anything but some damage and a lot of Crush blow...

Otherwise, try to build around having high Deadly strike or Critical strike with your frenzy setup. The ED% is fine, but double damage is way better.

Cheers,

[studmuffinkelv]

So my question is, is it viable to be using double-swing as my main attack, and only using Frenzy for its charge-up bonus? Or do you guys use Frenzy exclusively, and put points into DS just for the synergy?

I was a bit tired when writing my first reply, but I'll come right to the point this time. Only use DS for the synergy. The fastest attack you can have with either skill is 5 frames. Use the weapon speed calculator to figure out what gear you need to reach 5fpa with frenzy and try to achieve that.

Charging up with Frenzy to use Double Swing is just nonsensical!

[maiku]

So my question is, is it viable to be using double-swing as my main attack, and only using Frenzy for its charge-up bonus? Or do you guys use Frenzy exclusively, and put points into DS just for the synergy?

(I believe I have 30 to 40% IAS from Sigon's Gauntlets/Greaves + 1 other item. Crappy, I know, but I'm even worse without them.)

Thanks! :)

- Kareeser
Getting pwnt by Tainted in Hell

A Frenzier uses Frenzy, hence the name. :smiley: Find out how much IAS you need for 5 frame Frenzy with your weapons and load up.

DS doesn't really compare favorably with Frenzy, IMO. DS does have a little use if you're mana burned by suckers in Hell...then again, I discovered the easiest way around this is to stick an "Insight" on your Act 2 Merc and have some items w/ damage goes to mana, so you're always regenerating enough mana to keep Frenzy up and take out mana burners.

[Kareeser]

Hey again everybody, thanks for the great responses! I'll be sure to check out that damage/weapon speed calculator.

First, my weapons are terrible for hell. I get owned by zombies in the blood moor.


I have the Bloodletter Gladius
+140% Enhanced Damage
Adds 12-45 Damage
+90 to Attack Rating
20% Increased Attack Speed
8% Life Stolen per Hit
+10% Slower Stamina Drain
+30 Increased Durability
+2-4 to Sword Mastery (Barbarian Only)
+1-3 to Whirlwind (Barbarian Only)

... and a rare +1 to barb skills flamberge which I upgraded to a zweihander. It deals in the high 50s for damage, IIRC.
I'm not sure how d2 figured out "main hand" and "off hand". I believe I have the gladius set as my main hand.

Silks of the Victor, highest defence I could find. I'm more of a weekend player :)

So at the moment, I know I have not reached the highest, I think? 30% with gloves, and +20% from the sword.

I also know I totally screwed over my barb with random points in random stuff, being my first time with a barb and all, so I could always re-build anyway. I have 0 in BO! :D

*waits for the bashing*

So, it seems I am currently at 6 fpa, and I need to boost it up to 75% IAS to get the fabled 5 fpa. Hrm. Any goals to set?

[maiku]

I understand your predicament. My Frenzy Barb is also my first Barb in years. I've been kind of winging it and testing different gear setups. Still not 100% settled on anything, although I do know that one of the swords I want to acquire will be a "Grief" Phase Blade.

But I can recommend a few pointers on cheap gear that'll make you pwn those zombies in the Blood Moor. :smiley:

Decent unique weapons for a Frenzier:

- Headstriker Battle Sword (IIRC, damage output with these was 1500 max on my LCS, and then doubled again with Headstriker's 100%+ Deadly Strike; I used a pair of them until I was able to get an ethereal "Oath" Balrog Blade and "Crescent Moon" Phase Blade on)
- Crainte Vomir (nice stats, slows enemies, % damage reduction, I also used one of these for a while and liked it)
- The Vile Husk has decent damage and one really nice stat: 6% chance to cast Amp damage on enemies. Works nicely on off hand.
- Flamebellow has good damage and should be cheap to trade for
- Doombringer has better stats than Flamebellow, IMO, and should also be easy to trade for

If you can't get any good rares or elite uniques, then think about upgrading one of the exceptional swords mentioned above with the Cube recipe.

Decent unique armors:

- Shafstop: %DR, +life, and good defense if upgraded
- Duriel's Shell for heavy resists, decent defense if upgraded
- Leviathan (harder to get, also has %DR)

Usually better than uniques are rune words.

Cheap rune words for weapons:

- "Crescent Moon"
- "Oath" (make in an ethereal elite sword or scourge)
- "Black" (make in a 3-socket scourge)
- "Honor" (make in elite weapon)

Rune words for armor:

- "Lionheart"
- "Duress"
- "Prudence" (in an ethereal 2-socket elite armor)
- "Stone"

Cheap items that add a lot of umph:

- Guillaume's Face. 15% Deadly Strike, 35% Crushing Blow, +15 Str, and 30% faster hit recovery. Good melee helm.
- Goreriders. Crushing Blow, Deadly Strike, and Open Wounds. All excellent for a Frenzy Barb or any melee build.
- Goblin Toes. Well, you'll get 25% Crushing Blow at almost no cost at all. Not as good as Goreriders, IMO.
- String of Ears. Get one with 15% PDR and 7-8% life leech. All the mods on this are wonderful for Frenzy Barbs.
- Ravenfrost. Cold damage, Dex, and Cannot be Frozen. Chilled Frenzy Barb = dead Barb.
- "Insight" polearm on Merc, so he can keep your mana bulb topped off in Hell, where every other monster seems to be a mana burner.

And definitely get those points in BO. It adds so much to your survivability when you have like 3K+ life. I have maxed BO on my Frenzy Barb. Most of my skill layout is similar to what Spankeh recommended in his guide, with the exception that I'm not yet using a "Grief" and "Lawbringer" combo.

[Kareeser]

Ooo, fancy weapons...

I was ogling the "Fury" runeword for awhile, since it gives +5 to Frenzy... and then duelweilding it, but I can never get the runes, since they're rather high level. I also never see that particular runeword mentioned in any frenzy thread here...

I also noticed that Arreat's Face wasn't mentioned... too rare to ever find? :)

Basically, nightmare is a piece of cake for me. I can take on practically everybody solo (although I do have to do my fair share of running around when I'm taking on Diablo...), but the jump from NM Chaos Sanctuary to Hell Bloor Moor is so large!

Would I be best off running Mephisto runs in Nightmare for items?

[studmuffinkelv]

Arreat's face is the Vanilla helm of every high level barbarian. It's not too hard to trade for a low one if you play on bnet.

If you're not on bnet and you must find your gear, do NM Meph runs until you get some decent weapons. I would recommend doing pit runs in hell as soon as your barb can handle it.

[maiku]

Ooo, fancy weapons...

I was ogling the "Fury" runeword for awhile, since it gives +5 to Frenzy... and then duelweilding it, but I can never get the runes, since they're rather high level. I also never see that particular runeword mentioned in any frenzy thread here...

I also noticed that Arreat's Face wasn't mentioned... too rare to ever find? :)

I think the damage on "Fury" is only around like 200% ED...which is kinda low for such high runes required to make it. It's probably outclassed by several of the unique swords I mentioned. As a Frenzy Barb, we want our hits to not just tickle enemies--they ought to sting. :cool:

Arreat's is the best helm for a Frenzier, but IIRC, it's kind of expensive. If you can get one, go for it. Guillaume's makes a nice workable alternative, and all of its mods are good for a Frenzier. Arreat's offers +skills, big resists, life leech, IAS, and other things.


Basically, nightmare is a piece of cake for me. I can take on practically everybody solo (although I do have to do my fair share of running around when I'm taking on Diablo...), but the jump from NM Chaos Sanctuary to Hell Bloor Moor is so large!

Would I be best off running Mephisto runs in Nightmare for items?

Yeah, was the same for my Frenzier. Once I got my Headstrikers, I was able to cruise through NM with ease...but for Hell, I started looking for a serious weapon upgrades. I got fried by LEBs so many times. -_- Solved that now with higher leech, much improved resists, and much higher life thanks to maxed BO and dumping like crazy into Vit.

I'd recommend running Meph and Trav Council if you can in NM. Load up as much MF as you can on your chosen MF runner (200-300% being good). Council will give you lots of flawless gems, low to mid runes, cash (always nice for gambling), and the occasional nice unique; Meph can drop some really nice uniques in NM, like a Herald of Zakarum (which goes for HRs). If you can't get anything super from runs, make sure to save up perfect gems (especially perfect amethysts being valuable for caster amulet crafters) and use those in the trading forums here. Many of the swords and armors I mentioned go for just a few pgems, and would significantly up your power. More pgems can buy runes like Pul, Um, or higher. And that opens up the opportunity to make swords like "Oath" and "Crescent Moon." Also, Frigid Highlands and Shenk the Overseer make for fast runs. You can farm them for uniques, flawless gems, and cash, although they don't drop as nice of uniques as Council and Meph. Frigid/Shenk runs also only take a few seconds a piece, and Trav Council should be quick. Just knock them out before you head to Meph.

If you do plan on using your Frenzy Barb for MF runs, load him up with Crushing Blow, Laying of Hands (for bonus vs. demons, like bosses), MF helm (Tarnhelm, Shako, Stealskull, etc.) & armor ("Wealth" rune word, Skullder's Ire, or armor w/ 4 perfect topazes), lots of leech, and faster run items so you can zip around like crazy and minimize travel time on runs. I've discovered my Frenzy Barb actually makes a pretty decent MF char if I make a few equipment switches, because he can kill quickly and travel so fast. Also, if running Meph, try to get Slow items on you or your Merc, like Blackhorn's Face, Kelpie Snare, Reaper's Toll, etc. Will make Meph slow as molasses and less damaging.

[Kareeser]

Ah, right. I prefer to find my items myself, so I'm soloing at the moment.

Basically, however, the Stygian Dolls on /players 2 can rip me to pieces, and their explosive death often puts me back in town, sans gear =P

Having a grand total of zero points in Battle Orders will do that to you, I suppose... I have ~850 HP. Pitiful... ><

So I suppose I can start afresh, no biggie, but the character's still viable for the time being, right? I don't actually "NEED" BO to survive hell?

P.S... Vanilla... ice cream?

[maiku]

Stygian dolls make me so angry, sometimes, when I'm running Meph with my Sorc that I want to punch the screen. If I lag, I get 3-5 explosions right in my Sorc's face, and she's iced. Kills a lot of characters, not just Barbs.

~850 life without a shield, without teleport, without any way to tank the damage = death. T.T This is why several things are a big help for a Frenzy Barb:

- %PDR. Up to 50% if possible. You can get this from String of Ears, Verdungo's, Vampire Gaze, some of the swords I listed, armor (Shaftstop, Leviathan, etc.), you'll be in good shape. %PDR, IIRC, is most effective against big, damaging hits.
- Straight PDR. Can be obtained by socketing items with Sol runes or items with of Amicae or Life Everlasting mods. You can also try crafting Safety rings and items with straight PDR mods on them. You can gamble amulets and circlets of Life Everlasting, for example, and then further socket with Sol runes. Combined with Decrepify, their damage resistance effect is doubled, because enemies do 50% less damage. Combined with %PDR, they work really nicely, too. 20-50 PDR will make enemies hurt a lot less in Hell. Useful to avoid death by a thousand cuts or to soften explosions in your face.
- Lots o' damage so you can have lots o' leech.
- Crowd control via Decrepify, Taunt, Howl, freeze, Holy Freeze, Slow, chill, Blind, etc. One less monster attacking you = one more soul waiting to be clubbed over the head.

If you're going for an award for "Iron Resolve" or have made a solemn vow to avoid it like the plague, you might not need BO. But it really makes life a lot easier when you have 3K+ with BO. It is the best skill ever invented for a Barb, and I would recommend at least dumping 15+ points in it. Best to max it, IMO.

Are you playing in Single Player, by chance? If you are, see if you can hook up with the SP community here and trade for some items. Also, check out Ash's and Spankeh's guides. And see what rune words and nice weapons you can make. :thumbsup:

Grimborn, on the AB, once told me that Hell was "a whole 'nother ballpark for a Frenzy Barb." I totally agree with him. Norm and NM were cake and Hell can really be hell.

[Kareeser]

Thanks for the replies... everybody's so nice here! :)

I did have an ammy of life everlasting... reduced damage by 23, but I thought that was a little low, so I dumped it for a Slayer's amulet :P

How can Single Player players trade amongst each other? Trading x.d2s mules? Hamachi?

Edit: Ah, Open B.net. I'm stupid. ><

[onomastikon]

Hi, just to add my two cents, I'm also a newbie in your predicament, except I have a 69 ww/frenzy barb. Whatever.

"Honor" works fine even in a Zweihaender, it doesnt need to be elite. You can find all those runes yourself.
A little bit more expensive is "Cresent Moon", but it can be done.
The rest of the stuff people mention here (BotD) you can forget, it's top-of-the-line stuff people like us will never find in SP.

I even used "Goblin Toe" for the Crushing Blow as people mentioned here earlier with some success. If need be, you may want to hang out in NM a bit until you hit level 80 and can put a point into Battle Orders... ;-)
best to you

[Trance757]

lawbringer phase blade on a frenzy barb = knockback undead = you can go AFK and the dolls won't even be able to reach you in durance 2.

[Kareeser]

Amn, Lem, Ko, eh? I've never even seen a Ko rune in my life, haha...

More worth to shoot for this than Fury, I reckon, though...

[Trance757]

Fury doesn't do enough damage and costs an arm and a leg.

[MercurionX]

Not to threadjack but just to ask if Bul Kathos swords with The Disciple Set makes for a good frenzier setup?

[Kareeser]

I don't mind at all. In fact, that's a concern of mine...

I'm currently using some of Sigon's stuff, which is arguably quite low level. I use it for the +30% IAS, but if something better came along...

Are there magical/rare items that grant up to 30% IAS?

[studmuffinkelv]

One of the BK swords has knockback and that's downright annoying for a frenzy barb. Lightsabres and Azurewraths would make good frenzy swords. The base -30 speed in addition to 30ias means that you need less ias from your gear to reach 5fpa.

I'm currently using the treachery runeword on my barb (it's actually a sin armor) but it gives 45ias and 5% chance to lvl 15 fade when struck. Fade rocks! 65 res all, 15 damage reduction, 87% reduced curse length. All you need is a 3 sock armor, lem, ko, and thul.

[maiku]

Amn, Lem, Ko, eh? I've never even seen a Ko rune in my life, haha...

More worth to shoot for this than Fury, I reckon, though...

I had a Ko rune drop for me when I was running NM Trav Council. You could try there, and not only are they useful for gold, but you can take what lower runes you don't need and try to cube them up to Kos and Lems to make your "Lawbringer." Countess is also decent for running in NM.

BTW, I just want to comment that I don't think Lightsaber makes for a good Frenzy weapon. Even though it's really fast, the damage is just really low. A Shaeled Headstriker would help you crank out more damage than a Lightsaber. And Azurewrath has a very high level requirement: 85 if my memory is working just right. Physical damage on it is low, but its other stats make up for that.

[MercurionX]

I don't mind at all. In fact, that's a concern of mine...

I'm currently using some of Sigon's stuff, which is arguably quite low level. I use it for the +30% IAS, but if something better came along...

Are there magical/rare items that grant up to 30% IAS?

Yes there are, in fact magical/rare weapons can grant you up to 40% IAS just on the weapon itself. Gloves wise it would be 20% IAS max. If you want to look for IAS elsewhere they can be found on Goldwrap unique belt and Stealskull unique casque (both 10% IAS). Ammys wise would be Cat's Eye and Highlords Wrath (both at 20%)

Like what many said, try doing NM Meph runs. One of the unique NM swords, Crante Vomir can be dropped by NM Meph and I feel its good early in your career for a Frenzy barb. It grants 50% IAS , enhanced damaged, not to mention 10% damage reduction. Supposedly you wield 2 of these plus strings of ears, then you can achieve a maximum of 35% Damage reduction, not bad for a barb with no shield.

My Frenzy Barb using the Bul-Kathos Set is a hybird in that I max Double Swing for the synergy with Frenzy and double throw. Max sword mastery and dropped a few points in throwing mastery. On weapon switch is dual Gimmershreds for machine-gunning goodness ^^