View Full Version : strongest overall pvp build: necro, windy?
I'm wondering what you guys think the best overall PvP build would be, concidering top end dueler with best of the best gear. Which would have the least dead matches? I'm thinking either a Windy druid or Necro, both which have massive defensive capabilities and damage.. but not sure which would be overall best...
I'm also concidering maybe a hybrid Smiter/auradin is pretty overall gg. I saw a few vids from this dude named Celtic Alphabet... pretty sick stuff.
strongest overall would probably be a hdin @@
hdin/bvc then windy/nec
a nec loses to less than an hdin though. i think you just hate dueling them too much andrew.
Hellfire Boss
13-11-2007, 23:59
a nec loses to less than an hdin though. i think you just hate dueling them too much andrew.
i disagree
a nec loses to less than an hdin though. i think you just hate dueling them too much andrew.
well in theorycrafting necs lose to wind and ES sorcs lol @@
hdin vs nec can go both ways i guess
if the hdin is oaking and good at desy it could take longer for him to actually get hit by a spirit
well in theorycrafting necs lose to wind and ES sorcs lol @@
hdin vs nec can go both ways i guess
if the hdin is oaking and good at desy it could take longer for him to actually get hit by a spirit
iono, hdins are pretty easy for necs when you throw in prisons too. i don't think i've come across a hdin that was too much trouble. the desync just makes the duel really tense, but if you look at the scores, its definitely in the nec's favor.
hdins lose to high es sorcs too. remember mark vs bug? lololol
iono, hdins are pretty easy for necs when you throw in prisons too. i don't think i've come across a hdin that was too much trouble. the desync just makes the duel really tense, but if you look at the scores, its definitely in the nec's favor.
hdins lose to high es sorcs too. remember mark vs bug? lololol
w/e
hdin
bvc
nec
windy
top 4 k no specific order
w/e
hdin
bvc
nec
windy
top 4 k no specific order
nice overachieving~! :yikes:
nice overachieving~! :yikes:
lol
you started posting here when i had like 400 posts
i went up like 40 you went up 691
:yikes:
I've been playing this game since it came out, been through a lot of duels in my day... and this might just be my Druid hatred toward pally's... but I just don't think Hammerdins have a place in the top 3 anymore : /
imho, I think most hammerdins are just pub trash that spam and get 90% of their kills from bm and tg or lucked "invisi hammer" glitch. Against most of the godly builds out there such as FC zons, ES sorcs, or godly windy/necros with a very talented player controlling them I think their predictable spamming and desynching loses to better ranged builds that can anticipate it. Kiba just destroyed them using just rabiers and fury lol... says something. Heck, even godly BvC can beat up the best Hammerdins... check out the Smash "the barbarian" vid.
so far I'm leaning more towards:
-BvC (if perfectly build, using guided arrow too)
-maxblock Necros (tough to beat windies, but spamming teeth helps. overall very few dead matches if sideboarded correctly)
-windies (what can I say, ultimate sorb and amazing life/damage/speed)
akumaxxyz
14-11-2007, 02:29
I've been playing this game since it came out, been through a lot of duels in my day... and this might just be my Druid hatred toward pally's... but I just don't think Hammerdins have a place in the top 3 anymore : /
imho, I think most hammerdins are just pub trash that spam and get 90% of their kills from bm and tg or lucked "invisi hammer" glitch. Against most of the godly builds out there such as FC zons, ES sorcs, or godly windy/necros with a very talented player controlling them I think their predictable spamming and desynching loses to better ranged builds that can anticipate it. Kiba just destroyed them using just rabiers and fury lol... says something. Heck, even godly BvC can beat up the best Hammerdins... check out the Smash "the barbarian" vid.
so far I'm leaning more towards:
-BvC (if perfectly build, using guided arrow too)
-maxblock Necros (tough to beat windies, but spamming teeth helps. overall very few dead matches if sideboarded correctly)
-windies (what can I say, ultimate sorb and amazing life/damage/speed)
since when is fc a godly build? most stuff your saying is wrong, a bvc with a bow is the easiest match for a hdin
MysticDragon
14-11-2007, 03:00
since when is fc a godly build? most stuff your saying is wrong, a bvc with a bow is the easiest match for a hdin
Zealot is the easier. :P
jesterlolz
14-11-2007, 04:01
It depends if we are talking gm or bm environment.
If gm:
Windy
Mage
Necro
Light Sorc :grin:
Libby
Hammerdin
That's my completely biased opinion, and I only went down that far to show how low I think a plain ol' hammerdin is.
bvc is overrated, really. requires lots of eq switching to be good vs all, and still good necs and good hammerdins will own the top bvcs.
hammerdins beat the **** out of almost any char if youre good on them.
of course summon stackers can lame them, but with grief hdins still can not just get telestomped and tanked by nec/windy. they still gotta be carful.
if your talking about bm 1v1s, then bone necro is really good with summons, better than windy imho.
since when is fc a godly build? most stuff your saying is wrong, a bvc with a bow is the easiest match for a hdin
FC zon = total bm, dont get me wrong. Of course there's a lot fo subpar ones but the ones that deal Uber damage (my friend had one on nl) just destroy about 95% builds out there so I have no idea what you're talking about. Not even 80% light resist and Tgods save you from those ones kid, sure didn't save me >.<
also,
of course I meant widowmaker on 'switch' in the hands of a godly BvC. A high enough lvl OW/buffed venom. Of course without it they can just sit and play defensive spinning hammers free of trouble, the point is to keep pecking away at them and force them into a bad decision, then kill them with ww.
I think all I meant is that hammerdins are really really strong, but they're just so dang predictable 90% the time, most players just try to desynch... then try it again, etc. Over the years ppl know how to use othe builds and have found ways to beat that now, that's all. This isn't mid 1.10 anymore
akumaxxyz
14-11-2007, 07:41
FC zon = total bm, dont get me wrong. Of course there's a lot fo subpar ones but the ones that deal Uber damage (my friend had one on nl) just destroy about 95% builds out there so I have no idea what you're talking about. Not even 80% light resist and Tgods save you from those ones kid, sure didn't save me >.<
also,
of course I meant widowmaker on 'switch' in the hands of a godly BvC. A high enough lvl OW/buffed venom. Of course without it they can just sit and play defensive spinning hammers free of trouble, the point is to keep pecking away at them and force them into a bad decision, then kill them with ww.
I think all I meant is that hammerdins are really really strong, but they're just so dang predictable 90% the time, most players just try to desynch... then try it again, etc. Over the years ppl know how to use othe builds and have found ways to beat that now, that's all. This isn't mid 1.10 anymore
if you cant dicuss anything with out calling people "kid" dont do it at all.
i stop taking you seriously tho moment you think fc can own 95% of all builds.
the rest of the stuff you said are just plain wrong, bvc with bow is overrated, smash is overrated, good hdins are nearly unpredicable
MysticDragon
14-11-2007, 07:43
95% means a level worse than pub level. -_-!
Hellfire Boss
14-11-2007, 14:07
bvc is overrated, really. requires lots of eq switching to be good vs all, and still good necs and good hammerdins will own the top bvcs.
hammerdins beat the **** out of almost any char if youre good on them.
of course summon stackers can lame them, but with grief hdins still can not just get telestomped and tanked by nec/windy. they still gotta be carful.
if your talking about bm 1v1s, then bone necro is really good with summons, better than windy imho.
blah Moe summon/bone necs are very overrated they still have problems with stack and absing many elements in pub, they get raped by wind druids and 3min lasting summons zzz (btw there is no doubt that druid >nec i duno why i still see discussions that teeth can help its silly, top necs on every realm admit druid>them so stop talking otherwise)
besides i wouldnt say that nec > bvc its not true, necs are easy compered to paladins
btw there is no doubt that druid >nec i duno why i still have discussions that teeth can help its silly, top necs on every realm admit druid>them so stop talking otherwise)
actually teeth does help @@
but in the end druids > necs :S
it's like a 60/40 match up
iso balance plx
Hellfire Boss
14-11-2007, 14:49
actually teeth does help @@
but in the end druids > necs :S
it's like a 60/40 match up
iso balance plx
90/10 or even worse for nec ... (60/40 would be actually pretty balanced lol)
90/10 or even worse for nec ... (60/40 would be actually pretty balanced lol)
i was being generous
who cares we're both theorycrafting and pulling random numbers/probablities out of our asses
it can be whatever you want it to be :rolleyes:
blah Moe summon/bone necs are very overrated they still have problems with stack and absing many elements in pub, they get raped by wind druids and 3min lasting summons zzz (btw there is no doubt that druid >nec i duno why i still see discussions that teeth can help its silly, top necs on every realm admit druid>them so stop talking otherwise)
besides i wouldnt say that nec > bvc its not true, necs are easy compered to paladins
summon/bone hybrid? lolerskater!!! 1 point vives thats all. or even vives from wand.
I'm not talking about any builds that max summon tree maryn. how can a bone necro with summons and pretty much the same bone dmg as a boner w/o summons be worse?
and necro is one of the top chars for 1v1s as a matter of fact, even if you dont agree with me
and a well equipped high dr maxblock necro WILL shredder through bvcs. dont measure it at the random pub necs with spirit shield
Throttle
14-11-2007, 15:35
For pubbies, I think the character you'll have the most success with is a windy. Windies and bone necros both have matchups that are extremely difficult, but the necro's nemesis builds are much more popular than the windy's. Other than that I'd rate them roughly equal, except against eachother.
Hellfire Boss
14-11-2007, 15:48
summon/bone hybrid? lolerskater!!! 1 point vives thats all. or even vives from wand.
I'm not talking about any builds that max summon tree maryn. how can a bone necro with summons and pretty much the same bone dmg as a boner w/o summons be worse?
and necro is one of the top chars for 1v1s as a matter of fact, even if you dont agree with me
and a well equipped high dr maxblock necro WILL shredder through bvcs. dont measure it at the random pub necs with spirit shield
lool i said summon/bone but not hybrids, gl with white wand in hell u usually need 1 hard point there (i never said more points )
even max block, max dr nec cannot sit and tank barbs (unlike wwsins which are jokes if he has high psn res)
saying that nec is top char while he has 0 chance to win vs atleast 2 char types(ele,es sorcs) is a big misunderstanding, + u need to cripple ur char to have chance to beat good bvc and top amas (max block necs obviously have even lower chance to beat casters than vita...)
(unlike wwsins which are jokes if he has high psn res)
ahaha
ibtienje/wizadept/happyassasssssassssassin
why dont you organize some tournement all vs all duels on each realm. 3 best from each class, 3 bvc, 3 hammerdins, 3 boners etc. class with highest percentage of kills is the best overall. this will give high numbers of duels and will cut this theory crafting arguments. you can set rules or no rules at all (absorb, life tap...).
my best pvp char is bvc, but he is far from godly (whatever this means). i'm not very skillfull on duels and dont have perfect gear, but on this forums are lots of people with godly chars.
akumaxxyz
14-11-2007, 19:42
lool i said summon/bone but not hybrids, gl with white wand in hell u usually need 1 hard point there (i never said more points )
even max block, max dr nec cannot sit and tank barbs (unlike wwsins which are jokes if he has high psn res)
saying that nec is top char while he has 0 chance to win vs atleast 2 char types(ele,es sorcs) is a big misunderstanding, + u need to cripple ur char to have chance to beat good bvc and top amas (max block necs obviously have even lower chance to beat casters than vita...)
cripple nec to beat top bvc and ama? haha. a nec that uses decrepofy is impossible for ww barb so is zon.
only problem for necs is wind druid, vs es sor just absorb them back who cares about them whinning since they absorb too
Hellfire Boss
14-11-2007, 21:48
cripple nec to beat top bvc and ama? haha. a nec that uses decrepofy is impossible for ww barb so is zon.
only problem for necs is wind druid, vs es sor just absorb them back who cares about them whinning since they absorb too
even with 95%res bone nec cant beat decent 95es sorc
as for melee/ama it all depends which rules do u use, ofc that they have no chance if nec decides to spam bone walls, prisons +IM, decaprify
MysticDragon
14-11-2007, 22:25
IM doesn't matter. Prison is normally used when I duel. Most Zons that I play don't really care seeing how you can multi it down fast.
akumaxxyz
14-11-2007, 22:58
even with 95%res bone nec cant beat decent 95es sorc
as for melee/ama it all depends which rules do u use, ofc that they have no chance if nec decides to spam bone walls, prisons +IM, decaprify
95% resist + sorb sor= no dmg, its a matter of time when the nec slap a malice ow then spam you to death, or he can just put 1 in nova and spam that
DayDream
14-11-2007, 23:04
IM doesn't matter. Prison is normally used when I duel. Most Zons that I play don't really care seeing how you can multi it down fast.
Necros can actually cast prison faster than bowazons killing them.Also occasional spear here and there while prison. :lipsrsealed:
MysticDragon
15-11-2007, 02:30
If you keep up multi on a Zon with Guided in between, you kill off prisons very fast allowing you to run.
:grrrr: @ TienJe on Sortie vs Ruffle. :O
If you keep up multi on a Zon with Guided in between, you kill off prisons very fast allowing you to run.
:grrrr: @ TienJe on Sortie vs Ruffle. :O
lol :laugh:
Mythatic
15-11-2007, 07:52
Bvc
Windy
Hdins
ES/Blizzard can be strong too, but very extremely expensive
saellison
15-11-2007, 08:04
For pubs Wind druids are probably the best IMO. They can telestomp with minionstack, do physical damage, and they have cyclone armor.
Having those 3 things pretty much allows you to pwn the 2 most common pub characters I see, Sorc's and Hammerdins.
For pubs Wind druids are probably the best IMO. They can telestomp with minionstack, do physical damage, and they have cyclone armor.
Having those 3 things pretty much allows you to pwn the 2 most common pub characters I see, Sorc's and Hammerdins.
ES firesorcs tank ele druids if they dont get at least a pair of hots
i cant see how ele druid is top of something.. in pub hamer is the king, in 1vs 1 where there are rules cant see druid as top also. in the other hand in tvt my favorite team is always with druid in.
MysticDragon
16-11-2007, 01:56
Strong against Paladin builds and Necs.
i stop taking you seriously tho moment you think fc can own 95% of all builds.
the rest of the stuff you said are just plain wrong, bvc with bow is overrated, smash is overrated, good hdins are nearly unpredicable
ok I was generalizing of course. Godly damage FC zons are very hard to take down unless you go massive stack ans sorb, which I'm not stating "isn't possible" but even going TGods with like 80-85% light isn't enough many times from my experience.
You're right, the better hammerdins know how to keep it spontaneous. I just think that desynching isn't as new as it used to be and ppl are getting better at playing against that kinda attack, that's all.
Dude, I think I wouldn't have reacted in that way if you didn't just go "everything you said is wrong", offer no relevant information to back up your claims, then say stuff like Smash is overrated... I didn't mean to sound like I was waving his flag at all, but after seeing quite a few matches he does appear very good and effective and his opponents weren't exactly pushovers so I don't think it's fair for you to claim that unless you have your own vid or evidence proving otherwise I guess.
MysticDragon
16-11-2007, 05:24
Thunder Gods is enough for most builds.
Yeah, Tgods deffinitely cut it against a lot of builds like a good trapper ~5-6k avg damage, but there's a worlds diff between that and ~13k cs pelting you from 1-2 screens away repeatedly.
My FC Bear with 6400 life and 85%/20%sorb from Tgods would STILL just get dropped in a few hits from my friends FC zon Zule from NL East, if that gives you an estimate of where I'm coming from >.< Not at all saying unbeatable, a good bvc or smiter could deffinitely take him out by sorbing the heck outta him, but usually only if they knew in advance or already died lol
MysticDragon
16-11-2007, 07:05
When I said most builds, I meant teleporting builds. By the way, Javazons do about 6k average damage at the most.
akumaxxyz
16-11-2007, 10:32
Dude, I think I wouldn't have reacted in that way if you didn't just go "everything you said is wrong", offer no relevant information to back up your claims, then say stuff like Smash is overrated... I didn't mean to sound like I was waving his flag at all, but after seeing quite a few matches he does appear very good and effective and his opponents weren't exactly pushovers so I don't think it's fair for you to claim that unless you have your own vid or evidence proving otherwise I guess.
smash is overrated, his methods of killing hdins work only vs nubs. tell him to duel any good hdin he will be crushed. oh and anyone who have play barb for about a week can do what he does.
theworstpro
16-11-2007, 10:44
Imo windy.
Hurricane is cold, twister is magic. 2 Nasty elements to fight. Both deal bonkers damage, they have crazy defensive capabilities, a life pet, and even with decent gear can do crazy damage on a nado (enough to instagib most people)
Imo windy.
Hurricane is cold, twister is magic. 2 Nasty elements to fight. Both deal bonkers damage, they have crazy defensive capabilities, a life pet, and even with decent gear can do crazy damage on a nado (enough to instagib most people)
Nado's are physical.
smash is overrated, his methods of killing hdins work only vs nubs. tell him to duel any good hdin he will be crushed. oh and anyone who have play barb for about a week can do what he does.
this is right.
and FC zons never will be top notch chars. Heck, any assassin rapes them so damn hard even with 75 res and no sorb usually.
Barbs, smiters, any paladin with some sorb and grief, basically kills them with ease.
sorcs and necs will be able to out-range them and spam from far away although those duels are gona be boring and long and the casters may not make a lot of mistakes.
superjayson
16-11-2007, 15:27
Imo windy.
Hurricane is cold, twister is magic. 2 Nasty elements to fight. Both deal bonkers damage, they have crazy defensive capabilities, a life pet, and even with decent gear can do crazy damage on a nado (enough to instagib most people)
twister isnt magic damage and it certainly doesnt deliever bonkers damage.
smash is overrated, his methods of killing hdins work only vs nubs. tell him to duel any good hdin he will be crushed. oh and anyone who have play barb for about a week can do what he does.
i'll agree with the statement about smash, but i still don't see why you guys feel the widow combo on a barb is so damn ineffective. there's a reason why bowzons are great vs hammerdins isn't there? i find smash (and most other barbs) to be over-reliant on desync whirl, but if you shift towards walking/guided arrow/leap, you can give a hdin a very hard time, especially with a decent sized leap to counter desync.
i'll agree with the statement about smash, but i still don't see why you guys feel the widow combo on a barb is so damn ineffective. there's a reason why bowzons are great vs hammerdins isn't there? i find smash (and most other barbs) to be over-reliant on desync whirl, but if you shift towards walking/guided arrow/leap, you can give a hdin a very hard time, especially with a decent sized leap to counter desync.
widow is not bad in some matchups but against _good_ hammerdins with fast locks it will bring less advantage than disadvantage.
the damage you inflict is rather minimal and the risc of getting stomped is too high. of course you can try to predict desync but even ''pro players'' sometimes fail at it and hammerdins have to high damage to leave room for mistakes at widowing.
widow is good vs crap desyncers but descent hdin will tear apart any barb no matter what
widow is not bad in some matchups but against _good_ hammerdins with fast locks it will bring less advantage than disadvantage.
the damage you inflict is rather minimal and the risc of getting stomped is too high. of course you can try to predict desync but even ''pro players'' sometimes fail at it and hammerdins have to high damage to leave room for mistakes at widowing.
widow is good vs crap desyncers but descent hdin will tear apart any barb no matter what
most barbs here on west have much > 1 screen's radius leap, and if you start spamming leap while the paladin approaches, you'll kb him and stall his movement long enough to resync, and at the same time keep those desync hammers from getting too close. even without leap, its fairly easy to hit paladins if you take advantage of hammer's short range and utilize short-medium ranged GA's, like you do with a zon.
there is always the danger of being telestomped, but there are things you can do to combat it. if you walk correctly, like with a zon vs any CL'ing caster (which is much harder to dodge than a hdin), you can easily counter it. its not as much about reacting and moving out of the way as it is pre-emptively running. the mistake most zons make when they attempt to walk casters is that they try and react rather than just using a movement pattern that takes away the danger of being telestomped all together, and even more barbs make that mistake. even the fastest locks won't be able to beat good walking; it'll turn into a battle of prediction, and the "walker" has the definite upper hand in that situation.
plus... if widow/leap "seals" off desync hammers and forces the hdin to tele stomp, that would be a good thing for the barb. thats exactly the point of the fort/widow setup. the barb should have his whirlwind ready and armed, just waiting for situations like that.
but don't get me wrong. just like you, i think the current model of the fort/widow desync whirl baba is ineffective against the discliplined dueler. however, i'm adamant that if you take the time to learn to play the combo correctly, you can make it extremely rough for the paladin.
akumaxxyz
17-11-2007, 00:43
i'll agree with the statement about smash, but i still don't see why you guys feel the widow combo on a barb is so damn ineffective. there's a reason why bowzons are great vs hammerdins isn't there? i find smash (and most other barbs) to be over-reliant on desync whirl, but if you shift towards walking/guided arrow/leap, you can give a hdin a very hard time, especially with a decent sized leap to counter desync.
bowazons packs the fast run and the insane damage barbs dont. close range is not a problem if your god at making invinsible hammers. top hdins really screw over barbs and you wont even win regardless of which set up you use. they can just put on santuary on bo switch slow missle you if they wanted.
in the end you really cant kill a top hdin with a barb he'll just make invinsible hammers nonestop until it hits and you cannot play offensive vs a good one
in the end you really cant kill a top hdin with a barb he'll just make invinsible hammers nonestop until it hits and you cannot play offensive vs a good one
thats what leap stun is for. desync hammers won't do the paladin any good if he can't get close enough to hit.
akumaxxyz
17-11-2007, 05:35
thats what leap stun is for. desync hammers won't do the paladin any good if he can't get close enough to hit.
even if you got max leap it wont help against desync precise tele stomp, the dangerous part about this is all you can do is leap none stop while he can tele off the corner where your leap doesnt reach, your best hope is jsut to ww randomly or if you know where is going ahead..
even if you got max leap it wont help against desync precise tele stomp, the dangerous part about this is all you can do is leap none stop while he can tele off the corner where your leap doesnt reach, your best hope is jsut to ww randomly or if you know where is going ahead..
like i said before, most bvc's here have leaps that are much greater than a screen in radius. the paladin won't be able to teleport even from the corner.
plus... why would paladins teleport onto the barb? thats just an invitation to get whirled in the face. the whole point of the bow in the first place was to get the paladin to do just that.
akumaxxyz
17-11-2007, 09:11
like i said before, most bvc's here have leaps that are much greater than a screen in radius. the paladin won't be able to teleport even from the corner.
plus... why would paladins teleport onto the barb? thats just an invitation to get whirled in the face. the whole point of the bow in the first place was to get the paladin to do just that.
sign dont want to argue, barbs rely on widow are just trash, and it doesnt even work vs the good hdins. you can never tell when the paly teles your best hope of killing one is just random wwing or you can leap none stop 24/7. plus if pala wants he can slow missle you with santuary on switch renders widow completely useless
plus if pala wants he can slow missle you with santuary on switch renders widow completely useless
why do you always do this? you need to pay attention to the assumptions that are made and look at the context. you can't be so myopic.
if you're going to start allowing skill charges all of a sudden, the barb can just as easily use amp charges with the normal enigma setup and man-handle him.
I have played since 1.09, and I don't find smash, or any other w/m bvc any difficult on my hdin.
akumaxxyz
17-11-2007, 15:48
why do you always do this? you need to pay attention to the assumptions that are made and look at the context. you can't be so myopic.
if you're going to start allowing skill charges all of a sudden, the barb can just as easily use amp charges with the normal enigma setup and man-handle him.
funny how it seems like your the only one thinks widow even works. charges are completley opinionated.
your 3 am charge vs 60 sm charge you will charsi every 30 seconds, do you understand you cannot bm a paladin with charges? they have curse reduction its call cleanse.
bvc is way overrated now alot of people can ez even decent bvcs and ones with widow is so 100% predictable easy prey for any top hdin
Queen Mebd
17-11-2007, 18:40
sign dont want to argue, barbs rely on widow are just trash
funny how it seems like your the only one thinks widow even works.
Where do counterfactuals such as this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSZtRDsSmhs fit into the discussion?
funny how it seems like your the only one thinks widow even works. charges are completley opinionated.
your 3 am charge vs 60 sm charge you will charsi every 30 seconds, do you understand you cannot bm a paladin with charges? they have curse reduction its call cleanse.
bvc is way overrated now alot of people can ez even decent bvcs and ones with widow is so 100% predictable easy prey for any top hdin
if you're judging who thinks widow works just by whos posting in this thread, you're in for a big surprise. i could just as easily turn it around on you and say that you're the only anti-widow person here.
those amp charges on the martel are lvl 8, meaning they will last 7+ seconds even with cleansing on the entire time. you can kill a paladin with just a few whirls when its amped, and 3x7 seconds is more than enough time to do that with good nl and tele whirls.
if widow is so 100% easy, then why are bowzons so hard for them? barbs can run at very comparable speeds, and while their bow damage is nowhere near as high, that doesn't change how hard they will be to hit. when i'm talking about using widow, i'm not talking about those barbs that just sit there spamming and then hold down whirl to move. if you're going to elavate the theoretical hammerdin's skills to such high levels, the very least you could do would be to do the same for the barb and make the comparison legitimate.
i'm not arguing with you because i love the barb. i think they're totally overrated as well, but that doesn't mean they don't have any merit.
EDIT: i don't like the way mainaman plays his bvc vs hammerdin either :undecided:
akumaxxyz
18-11-2007, 00:52
if you're judging who thinks widow works just by whos posting in this thread, you're in for a big surprise. i could just as easily turn it around on you and say that you're the only anti-widow person here.
those amp charges on the martel are lvl 8, meaning they will last 7+ seconds even with cleansing on the entire time. you can kill a paladin with just a few whirls when its amped, and 3x7 seconds is more than enough time to do that with good nl and tele whirls.
if widow is so 100% easy, then why are bowzons so hard for them? barbs can run at very comparable speeds, and while their bow damage is nowhere near as high, that doesn't change how hard they will be to hit. when i'm talking about using widow, i'm not talking about those barbs that just sit there spamming and then hold down whirl to move. if you're going to elavate the theoretical hammerdin's skills to such high levels, the very least you could do would be to do the same for the barb and make the comparison legitimate.
i'm not arguing with you because i love the barb. i think they're totally overrated as well, but that doesn't mean they don't have any merit.
EDIT: i don't like the way mainaman plays his bvc vs hammerdin either :undecided:
if any barb can kill hdin with widow it meas the hdins are just retarded, widow is easily counter by good dins they wont play into your pathetic cat and mouse game, and barbs will never run as fast as bowazons unless they completly change their charm setup.
as for you amping the hdin and actually hitting them, i hope you are not serious! anyone none retarded will tele off your screen cleanse or make hammers so you get hit by spam and no matter how good you are you cannot play offensive vs a good hdin. [/quote]
if you're going to elavate the theoretical hammerdin's skills to such high levels, the very least you could do would be to do the same for the barb and make the comparison legitimate.
its pretty much fact pro barb wont beat pro hdin its just how the way it is too much advantage on pala's side, prayer,medic,cleanse,vigor,even foh on cta switch if you got 1 life :/
if any barb can kill hdin with widow it meas the hdins are just retarded, widow is easily counter by good dins they wont play into your pathetic cat and mouse game, and barbs will never run as fast as bowazons unless they completly change their charm setup.
as for you amping the hdin and actually hitting them, i hope you are not serious! anyone none retarded will tele off your screen cleanse or make hammers so you get hit by spam and no matter how good you are you cannot play offensive vs a good hdin.
its pretty much fact pro barb wont beat pro hdin its just how the way it is too much advantage on pala's side, prayer,medic,cleanse,vigor,even foh on cta switch if you got 1 life :/
all i'm saying is, for how ridiculously easy you make it sound for the paladin, the barbs seem to win an awful lot.
Yeah, top din vs top barb the din would win, but how many good dins are there??? Maybe 1 out of 50.
from what im hearing it sounds like bvc<<<hammerdin if both players are of equal "skill" cough* and equal gear in a mostly/semi gm enviroment. are there ever organized matches between the generaly accepted "best" from each realm and class? i dont mean e-penor d2jsp flamefests, i mean real, solid dueling. this would certainly put a stop to widow/antiwidow forum wars and general bvc vs din disputes.
half of bnet is hammerdin, and probly half or more of hammerdins have "hammer" or "hammertime" or "hammerown" or such in their names. compared to the number of bvcs its probly 5:1. for every bad bvc there is there are 10 worst hammerdins. in all my time this season (its been some months now) i have seen probly 3 good hammerdins, one of which would charge away 6 screens to heal himself with auras everytime his hp dropped below 50%, the other was absurdly bm, and the third was really excelent at desyncing. in the same amount of time i have met perhaps 1 good bvc but he was bm as hell, partied with wind druids and hammers and nks the crap out of everything.
akumaxxyz
18-11-2007, 04:53
all i'm saying is, for how ridiculously easy you make it sound for the paladin, the barbs seem to win an awful lot.
thats simple, decent bvcs with widow will kill any nub hammers easily. its the other way around when your up against a good one.[/quote]
Yeah, top din vs top barb the din would win, but how many good dins are there??? Maybe 1 out of 50.
theres alot, anyone good that have play with hdin will stomp a bvc its just that its boring to duel with.
half of bnet is hammerdin, and probly half or more of hammerdins have "hammer" or "hammertime" or "hammerown" or such in their names.
lmao +1 for you
The hdin in that video isn't even using slow missles on that bvc. He is very offensive and kept falling into his traps(ie to his desynch wws).
If it were me, I would have slow missles that barb, and continue using my usual strategies against him rather than charging blindly about.
The hdins you mentioned in pubs probably doesn't even use sanctuary shields, so that is how they lose to bvcs. But versus a good desyncher with sanc on switch, window maker mean nothing.
In west, anything goes in pubs. Therer isn't such thing as bm. Besides in real tvt, why would a bvc use window maker? In 1v1, anything goes.
DayDream
18-11-2007, 14:51
The hdin in that video isn't even using slow missles on that bvc. He is very offensive and kept falling into his traps(ie to his desynch wws).
If it were me, I would have slow missles that barb, and continue using my usual strategies against him rather than charging blindly about.
The hdins you mentioned in pubs probably doesn't even use sanctuary shields, so that is how they lose to bvcs. But versus a good desyncher with sanc on switch, window maker mean nothing.
In west, anything goes in pubs. Therer isn't such thing as bm. Besides in real tvt, why would a bvc use window maker? In 1v1, anything goes.
...lolwut?-^
Serious?
thepandafactor
18-11-2007, 17:36
widow sucks, i tried it once.I don't really understand how its supposed to work against max block and tele.
widow sucks, i tried it once.I don't really understand how its supposed to work against max block and tele.
It's actually meant for pushing pressure and to make your opponent come close so you can hit with desync whirls.
However I'm of akumaxyz's opinion. It doesn't work against anyone good.
anotherHDINplayer
18-11-2007, 18:09
Hi guyz, here just my opnion.
bvc with widow > bvc without widow vs hdins.
I simply dont see how a barb can pressure a hdin to go offensive without a widow, you can leap all day but the game is totally in the control of the hdin - if the hdin doesnt wannt to attack you, theres nothing you can do.
Say you get some lucky wws in on him being agressive at the start and take some life away. The hdin will run scared, play defensive and camp in fields of hammers.
There is nothing a bvc can do vs a defensive hdin without a widow.
The main problem with hdins if that they have big egos and see a barb and instantly think = ho ho ho im a hdin i must own melee and go all out attack with charge/tele. But if the hdins just sit back for awhile and play defensive the game is over unless the bvc has a widow.
Back to the post topic:
Best char BM : hdin
Best char GM : c/c trapper or es blizz (blizz HURT gm)
Hi guyz, here just my opnion.
bvc with widow > bvc without widow vs hdins.
I simply dont see how a barb can pressure a hdin to go offensive without a widow, you can leap all day but the game is totally in the control of the hdin - if the hdin doesnt wannt to attack you, theres nothing you can do.
Say you get some lucky wws in on him being agressive at the start and take some life away. The hdin will run scared, play defensive and camp in fields of hammers.
There is nothing a bvc can do vs a defensive hdin without a widow.
The main problem with hdins if that they have big egos and see a barb and instantly think = ho ho ho im a hdin i must own melee and go all out attack with charge/tele. But if the hdins just sit back for awhile and play defensive the game is over unless the bvc has a widow.
Back to the post topic:
Best char BM : hdin
Best char GM : c/c trapper or es blizz (blizz HURT gm)
Widowing leaves space for unexpected telestompings.
Apart from that, hdin can play onscreen 24/7 and will still win.
anotherHDINplayer
18-11-2007, 18:38
Widowing leaves space for unexpected telestompings.
Apart from that, hdin can play onscreen 24/7 and will still win.
Well this brings up tienje's point.
Bowzons are so effective vs hdins yet they are far more open to telestomp. I'll even point out necros, who effectively walk vs telestomp.
A barb is far far less vunerable to telestomp, as they can walk/run the hammer just as effectively yet -
1) He only needs to shoot 1-2 ga at a time for ow.
2) He has leap
3) Hdins are less keen to telestomp a bvc
4) He has alot more hp allowing for much greater margin of error than nec/zons.
Once you get stomped as bvc on widowswitch you're still screwed and you will eat 2 hammers at least because of fhr.
For sure you can avoid that by only shooting 1 GA and directly whirling/leaping and trying to predict desync in general but still even very experienced players sometimes make mistakes.
Anyway, good hammerdin players will put pressure on a barb and dont leave time to use widow a lot.
Widow is good if the hammerdin is rather defensive. Good players, however, are rarely so defensive ^_^
Keeping widow on stash is never a mistake (if you got enough space) so you can decide when and vs who to use it.
akumaxxyz
18-11-2007, 23:44
Well this brings up tienje's point.
Bowzons are so effective vs hdins yet they are far more open to telestomp. I'll even point out necros, who effectively walk vs telestomp.
A barb is far far less vunerable to telestomp, as they can walk/run the hammer just as effectively yet -
1) He only needs to shoot 1-2 ga at a time for ow.
2) He has leap
3) Hdins are less keen to telestomp a bvc
4) He has alot more hp allowing for much greater margin of error than nec/zons.
lol duel more experience hdins please?
walk run is easily counter if you tele where they go ahead.
1) He only needs to shoot 1-2 ga at a time for ow.
1-2 ga will never hit 75% block fast moving paladin period.
2) He has leap which is useless if he is off screen and you wont even know where he comes from except continuing none stop leaping which leads you vunerable to leap, i seen so many retarded barbs keep leaping which is a waste of action also proves they dont know how to evne use a bab lol
3) Hdins are less keen to telestomp a bvc good hdins can kill you with just tele if you use widow infact you dont even got time to pull out that nub bow out against good duelers
4) He has alot more hp allowing for much greater margin of error than this one proves you dont ever duel hdins, bvcs life range from 6-8k ok? they last 3-4 hammers at most
hdins dmg range from 10k-16k, once your hit by 2 you usually say in fhr which leads to be kill, theres no such thing as greater magin of error vs hdins no body have such advantage except 95% es sors
akumaxxyz
18-11-2007, 23:46
It's actually meant for pushing pressure and to make your opponent come close so you can hit with desync whirls.
However I'm of akumaxyz's opinion. It doesn't work against anyone good.
not to mention it'll only make you like a retard which relies on people playing offensive against you and you still died ^_^
lol duel more experience hdins please?
walk run is easily counter if you tele where they go ahead.
they're able to change directions you know? like the other poster said, even necros, with tiny amounts of frw, are able to effectively walk hdins. if you tele right in front of the barb, thats the perfect situation for him to pull out the whirls.
1-2 ga will never hit 75% block fast moving paladin period.
... statistically, theres a ~44% chance that at least one of those 2 arrows will hit you through 75% block. the arrows will catch up when you stop to cast.
good hdins can kill you with just tele if you use widow infact you dont even got time to pull out that nub bow out against good duelers
you're giving your theoretical hdin instantaneous reaction times, and yet you make the barb in your scenarios a moron. no wonder the hdin comes out on top.
anyway, i'm done.
thepandafactor
19-11-2007, 01:51
I tried widow a while back and it didn't work so well.
i think ppl are underestimating widow abit too far to call it useless. When i fight hamerdins on bvc in a standard pub fight i dont bother switch in widow however in 1 v 1 or priv widow is still quite usefull. The barb is always at a risk of tele stomp or gg desync runs however when i use bow i combine leap on right click and ga on left allowing you to leap alot and spam gas reducing the chances of getting tele stomps and in the case u do, u can leap away as leap is uninteruptale reducing the amount of hammers u can potentially eat.
However using a hammerdin based char i find the bow use can be reduced alot especiallhy with agressive tele hammer as the it does not give the barb the space and time to utilise the bow properly and forces error or combined with good delayed namelocking or desync.
Also oak sages etc help nicely for minnion stack vs barb ww and gas.
anotherHDINplayer
19-11-2007, 16:21
The only person who is calling it useless is akuma.
Anyway -
If you cant win the duel with a widow = you won't be able to win without.
However, its not always the case vice versa.
wow, great discussion = )
I didn't realize it was so debateable heh
So I've heard a lot of good info from both sides. I guess to sum it up, hammerdins deffinitely have the advantage over the ww barb... mainly along the lines that... they can afford to make much more mistakes it seems whereas the barb, he deffinitely's gotta be pro+ in that duel :) It can deffinitely be done it seems but under equal terms that would be really really tough ^.^
The one thing I do like about widow, hate it or love it... it's not really the damage 'cause lord knows it does little to nothing even with OW (although it's still annoying lol, like getting plucked by ravens from town... you know it's doing almost nothing but you STILL get annoyed and move anyways lol:laugh: ). It's the "vulnerability" factor that almost works to your advantage. I guess if I explain it, if an opponent immediately sees GA's coming at him... 9 times outta 10 he's gonna think "oh, time to make a move" and try to desynch you or something. This can work to your advantage 'cause you can be waiting to clip him outta tepeport immediately. Of course, I know not everyone is that gulible but sadly a lot of ppl are :wink3:
So anyways, that's one thing I do sorta like about using Widow... besides the fact that it makes me feel cool =P
scottymill
19-11-2007, 17:43
Anyways back to the strongest pvp build...I would prob say Wind Druid even tho it has trouble with mind blast and BvC's. Windys have an advantage or Necs and Hdins(which are two of the best 4 pvp builds imo) tho so i give the best overall build to Windys.
i think ppl underestimate the dmg of widow in my oppinion with my bvc forti setup i pump out a max of 2k "displayed" widow dmg this excludes things like ow + ds ofc.
akumaxxyz
22-11-2007, 21:22
i think ppl underestimate the dmg of widow in my oppinion with my bvc forti setup i pump out a max of 2k "displayed" widow dmg this excludes things like ow + ds ofc.
this is the worst of the worst setup, say you use such a setup against a good desync/teler hammerdin you cant do nothing but bow him or ww desync him if your good. he will be constantly on your screen you can poke 1-2 lucky arrows what will it do? like 200 dmg top maybe more if ow triggers why waste time on such crap while you can just ww and be done with it. no stupid din is going to tele in your random wws unless you make them invinsible like hammers.
since alot of people here still thinks widow is that useful ok think what you will,i'll just acept that, but i will laugh with the other people who knows its useless lol
Akuma, do you honestly underestimate OW? Just curious, but how many sins have raped you? Was she gentle?
If a bvc w/ widow is useless, then what is a better alternative? Care to give helpful advice and not just bashing bvc's since you seem to love the lamerdin?
If widow doesn't seem like a good weapon to pressure the hdin, then what is? Throwing wouldn't be as effective as the GA, singer barbs would be risky vs a pally, and the barb has no real ranged attack that would be effective other than a widow. Care to give healthy criticism a shot?
the hammer could just charge away and heal with his aura every time he bleed, and force you to chase, which would be suicide. its a bit lame charging away 4 screens to aura heal but it does happen.
Verashiden
23-11-2007, 00:26
He could also use Juvs, what's your points? I figured this was "GM" duels we're talking about here.
Anyways, I don't really see a better strategy than Widow versus Hamham. Random Whirls only do so much and if the Hamham is a desynch spray and prey he'll never be on your screen. Widow seems like a good option to at least attempt to maintain your tempo throughout the duel.
some people consider that "GM", incredibly lame, but still GM. i recall one duel with a foh/ham that would do that just as soon as his life dropped below 25%. i said" why not just go buy healing pots" and he replied with "because thats cheating". short of arguing dueling ethics i just left because the duels would take 20 minutes and he would lame it everytime.
xxxkillerxxx
23-11-2007, 01:43
Akuma, do you honestly underestimate OW? Just curious, but how many sins have raped you? Was she gentle?
If a bvc w/ widow is useless, then what is a better alternative? Care to give helpful advice and not just bashing bvc's since you seem to love the lamerdin?
If widow doesn't seem like a good weapon to pressure the hdin, then what is? Throwing wouldn't be as effective as the GA, singer barbs would be risky vs a pally, and the barb has no real ranged attack that would be effective other than a widow. Care to give healthy criticism a shot?
Ow = half dmg on ranged weapons.
Anyone who dueled any top or semi-top hammer know why fort is suicide. Fortbarbs get 20-0d or 20-1d consistently. Pathetic frw, no desynch, no tele, no offense whatsoever = fail. Period.
That leaves enigma. Widow with enigma = sad. Not that anyone with a brain would get scared by fort+widow but enigma is a total joke. Using something that gives no benefit at all but comes with a huge disadvantage is plain dumb. Assuming perfect conditions (no inevitable switching-lag or client-side desynch so you think you've run to safety but get dragged back and hit by 2-3 hammers when server catches up) GOOD hammer will telestomp widowbarbs all the time. And seriously, how hard is it to avoid arrows with vigorcharge lol?
When you bring out widow ALL TOP hdins in europe think "ty freekill", laugh at you then rape you over and over. NONE of the really good barbs here perform better vs TOP HDINS with widow than without. Some supposedly "good" barbs duel hammers by leaping 24/7 coupled with some widowspamming and/or ww away. Those hammers always get surprised when they run into me or other in-your-face-barbs.
I've been running 20 pt-leap on all my barbs for the last 3 years, was one of the first fort/widow lamers in europe (I even ran fort+widow+arreats as pubgear a while hehe) and played the only dedicated anti-hammer barb that I know of with 14max/7x ar gcs and grief+grief+fort but there's no coincidence that I win 300-500% (no exaggeration) more with no fort/widow when I duel top and semi-top hammes. Learn to read desynch->tele/ww, predict telestomp and just telezerk bad hdins and you'll do better than spamming no-dmg-arrows and ww away 24/7.
Obvious conclusion: widow is a waste of time and enigma is better vs good hdins, if they die to widow+fort you'll kill them with enigma as well.
Anyone disagreeing post your EUNL accounts and I'll hook you up with some real hdins to duel with your fort/widow clownbarbs, starting with Luder on this forum. Of course there'll be none just like last time this was up for discussion zzz...
are you suggesting prediction tele into a long ww? this doesnt seem any more effective than defensive ww away which is aparently not very "skillful".
akumaxxyz
23-11-2007, 03:31
Akuma, do you honestly underestimate OW? Just curious, but how many sins have raped you? Was she gentle?
If a bvc w/ widow is useless, then what is a better alternative? Care to give helpful advice and not just bashing bvc's since you seem to love the lamerdin?
If widow doesn't seem like a good weapon to pressure the hdin, then what is? Throwing wouldn't be as effective as the GA, singer barbs would be risky vs a pally, and the barb has no real ranged attack that would be effective other than a widow. Care to give healthy criticism a shot?
obviously your speaking out of rage with that kind of attitude, first im just saying the truth not bashing bvcs,i duel with them also. second range ow is total trash and gas from barb are so slow its easy to avoid. if you put any kind of gm sorb sins are no problem.
so your calling this class a lamerdin just because you disklike it? please go duel good hammerdins befor you can say widow is effective or it can pressure them into teleing onto predictable wws
i fail to see how a barb using widow, hitting the right IAS bp's, will fair worse than one without, especially considering how easy it is to walk hdins with a long range attack (even necros with 75% item frw can do it). most barbs just don't understand proper walking technique, and as you said, will get telestomped to hell or just duct tape down whirl and hope the hdins run into them.
if the hammerdin doesn't jump into within whirl range, they won't be able to hit the barb with hammers if the barb is able to predict the desync and use leap to his advantage. pelting the paladin with arrows, even if the damage output isn't great, is still going to be better than doing no damage at all, and will force the paladin to play a bit more offensive.
i see tons of videos (a lot from mcm) of barbs beating paladins with just whirling away, and that angers me because it just perpetuates the wrong way to play barb vs hdin. there should be much more emphasis on walking with the widow and leap, and only using the ww defensively/opportunistically to keep from being tele stomped. barbs basically need to stop being barbs with the fort/widow setup.
some people may be better suited for tele/ww strategies, but for some people like me who play zons and other casters, walking comes as the much more natural play style. with the right player, i strongly believe that fort/widow has the potential to be equal, if not better, than a normal tele/ww strategy.
obviously your speaking out of rage with that kind of attitude, first im just saying the truth not bashing bvcs,i duel with them also. second range ow is total trash and gas from barb are so slow its easy to avoid. if you put any kind of gm sorb sins are no problem.
so your calling this class a lamerdin just because you disklike it? please go duel good hammerdins befor you can say widow is effective or it can pressure them into teleing onto predictable wwsI guess you thought I was raging. My bad.
I don't duel with barbs (only sins) so I can't tell you gosu strategies with them, but I still think widow is good to make th hdin get a bit of dmg while he's still out of range (like in the strategy that TienJe said). I know OW get's a ranged penalty, but it's better than no dmg ;)
I don't even use widow on my sins sine I'll use my traps / shadow to do what widow would serve as. Barbs don't have shadow masters or traps, so I think it's a ranged attack that could easily do better than sitting and waiting for a tele-stomp.
Unless a barb has super fast leap and can leap up to a hdin be using small, far radius leaps, I doubt the barb can fire off many safe whirls near the hdin unless the hdin tele's on. I don't duel with a hdin, but I'd rather make a hammer fly (right at the edge of the radius they have) and have it hit him while he thinks it'll miss than try to tele a barb.
What kind of fcr are we considering? Can a hdin get away with telestomp if he has enough fcr to tele -> fly a hammer or 2 -> tele away?
this is the worst of the worst setup, say you use such a setup against a good desync/teler hammerdin you cant do nothing but bow him or ww desync him if your good. he will be constantly on your screen you can poke 1-2 lucky arrows what will it do? like 200 dmg top maybe more if ow triggers why waste time on such crap while you can just ww and be done with it. no stupid din is going to tele in your random wws unless you make them invinsible like hammers.
since alot of people here still thinks widow is that useful ok think what you will,i'll just acept that, but i will laugh with the other people who knows its useless lol
lol easy up i was just merely mentioning that the bow can do some respectable dmg, not saying my setup can do x, or is supperior to x.
From my experience using bvc i find that forti + bow can beat alot of mediocre pub hammers etc however i was the same person stating a while back some hammerdins u simply do not stand a chance unless u use enigma due to, lack of mobility desync etc. Did i or did i not state this before?
However contradicting myself,alot of what TienJe states can be true as good walking vs a hammerdin can make it a pain for a tele stomping hammer i.e sorc walk a firing spells etc, i cant vouch for the zon part as my experiece with bowazon was not good i still used to loss to alot of hammerdins which is a good hint on my lack of skill and knowledge with this char however one problem i find. Wouldnt lack of frw make a difference vs a hammerdin TienJe
I know this from using mage that an agressive tele hammer + desync style using hammer trapps etc does not leave much time or opening to use the bow and this also means u ha ve cut ur mobility off because of lack of enigma.
I know Ed is a good hammerdin i used to duel him alot bvc vs hammerdin infact he tought me quite a few things on how to use a hammerdin when i first built the char.
xJLx Slayer
24-11-2007, 06:10
Wow some people are so Stupid. If you read and try to understand what some people are telling you and asking you to do then you will see how stupid you are. Right now I have 3 duelers. Bvc, Lite, and Es fire sorc. I can this much about them. They all own. Although the Barb is the best out of all of them.
Right now I only duel with my Barb for about a few hours and I log off and then I might do it again tomorrow. So far the only real hard opponent are Hdins, and Summoners. Although You barely see a Summoner. Anyways The only way I HAVE A CHANCE TO BEAT A HDIN IS USING A WIDOWMAKER. Yes the damage sucks, yes the ow is half, yes there is many ways you can avoid Guide arrow, but its a Barbs only chance against a real Hdin.
WTF are you going to do against a Hdin who stay in a hammer area. YEAH go inside I DARE you and just die. IT cant be done. WTF are you going to do run until you see him and you might hit him. LOL pathetic. So now we need an attack to use to make the HDing come out of the... Hammer area and try to make him become hasty, or make him question his own skills by making him scared.
How do we do this? With attacks like Guide arrow, and Throw and thats about it! Thorwing is a waste of time because you cant aim and its easily dodged. Guide Arrow has a chance to use OW, Damage him, and harder to avoid. Believe me you will choose GA if you had an option. Noway are you going to say its useless. Anyone who says its stupid, Pathetic, dumb...etc to use the Bow is just a dumbass who never controller a BvC, or never wanted to try and use Bvc for longer then a month. Guess what I played him for 1month and I am still doing it.
I DARE ANYONE HERE TO GIVE ME A BETTER OPTION ON HOW TO FIGHT A HDIN. DONT POST VIDEOS OF OTHER PEOPLE. YOUR VIDEOS!!! Dont give me the " Use ww correctly" crap I heard it 100 of times from newbs who dont want to admit that Hdin have a 93% chance of winning just because of the way the Skill of players and attack are developed. I dont want to hear the "your Barb sucks" crap because I fought many different Hdins with 17k Hammer and others that are even stronger.
I hate how people say a stragety suck without them even providing a better solution, or a good reason to why it "sucks"
the propsed solution i think was tele somewhere and make a WW. page 8 or 9.
Wow some people are so Stupid. If you read and try to understand what some people are telling you and asking you to do then you will see how stupid you are. Right now I have 3 duelers. Bvc, Lite, and Es fire sorc. I can this much about them. They all own. Although the Barb is the best out of all of them.
Right now I only duel with my Barb for about a few hours and I log off and then I might do it again tomorrow. So far the only real hard opponent are Hdins, and Summoners. Although You barely see a Summoner. Anyways The only way I HAVE A CHANCE TO BEAT A HDIN IS USING A WIDOWMAKER. Yes the damage sucks, yes the ow is half, yes there is many ways you can avoid Guide arrow, but its a Barbs only chance against a real Hdin.
WTF are you going to do against a Hdin who stay in a hammer area. YEAH go inside I DARE you and just die. IT cant be done. WTF are you going to do run until you see him and you might hit him. LOL pathetic. So now we need an attack to use to make the HDing come out of the... Hammer area and try to make him become hasty, or make him question his own skills by making him scared.
How do we do this? With attacks like Guide arrow, and Throw and thats about it! Thorwing is a waste of time because you cant aim and its easily dodged. Guide Arrow has a chance to use OW, Damage him, and harder to avoid. Believe me you will choose GA if you had an option. Noway are you going to say its useless. Anyone who says its stupid, Pathetic, dumb...etc to use the Bow is just a dumbass who never controller a BvC, or never wanted to try and use Bvc for longer then a month. Guess what I played him for 1month and I am still doing it.
I DARE ANYONE HERE TO GIVE ME A BETTER OPTION ON HOW TO FIGHT A HDIN. DONT POST VIDEOS OF OTHER PEOPLE. YOUR VIDEOS!!! Dont give me the " Use ww correctly" crap I heard it 100 of times from newbs who dont want to admit that Hdin have a 93% chance of winning just because of the way the Skill of players and attack are developed. I dont want to hear the "your Barb sucks" crap because I fought many different Hdins with 17k Hammer and others that are even stronger.
I hate how people say a stragety suck without them even providing a better solution, or a good reason to why it "sucks"
A bit rude and aggressive, but I can't say I disagree.
xxxkillerxxx
24-11-2007, 17:09
Wow some people are so Stupid.
The only way I HAVE A CHANCE TO BEAT A HDIN IS USING A WIDOWMAKER.
Anyone who says its stupid, Pathetic, dumb...etc to use the Bow is just a dumbass who never controller a BvC, or never wanted to try and use Bvc for longer then a month.
Guess what I played him for 1month
You've played barb for 1 month and you call others stupid and dumbasses? Your opinion means nothing to me or anyone else who doesn't suck on barb. If you think widow is the best way to duel hammerdins I have two solutions: either get good or duel someone who've used hdin longer than you've played barb lol. Just because _you_ are incapable of playing correctly doesn't mean everyone else blow too.
Uncle_Mike
24-11-2007, 17:11
Your opinion means nothing to me or anyone else who doesn't suck on barb.
I suck on barb, HI.
Is random desynch ww and perfect tele-zerk all one can do vs. hdin then?
xJLx Slayer
24-11-2007, 18:10
You've played barb for 1 month and you call others stupid and dumbasses? Your opinion means nothing to me or anyone else who doesn't suck on barb. If you think widow is the best way to duel hammerdins I have two solutions: either get good or duel someone who've used hdin longer than you've played barb lol. Just because _you_ are incapable of playing correctly doesn't mean everyone else blow too.
I hink you musunderstood when I said I play Barb for 1 month. I meant to say I play THIS Barb I have no for 1 month. I had another Barbs in Classic, and in LoD. Lol Again those are not solutions. You say Widow suck, but them you provide a salution saying I dont play good, but I know I use barbs well because it was my first Character in every patch, and the. first character I made. Dont say stuff you dont understand.
PS You solution are stupid. Almost everyone has a palladin
I have no pallies.
Can we work on a BvC solution to hdins if some utterly hate widow?
I like the tele-zerk idea, but isn't that capped at 9frames? The hdin will cast faster than that. Also, wasn't there a perfect blind spot in the hammer field that you can safely stand in (and still be in range of melee) and not get hit?
I think I once stood at the 5 'o clock or 6 'o clock position and was safe. I prefer to run with the hammers (on my sin) and have fun running with the hammers (in a play scenario, not a duel ;) )
xJLx Slayer
24-11-2007, 19:16
I have no pallies.
Can we work on a BvC solution to hdins if some utterly hate widow?
I like the tele-zerk idea, but isn't that capped at 9frames? The hdin will cast faster than that. Also, wasn't there a perfect blind spot in the hammer field that you can safely stand in (and still be in range of melee) and not get hit?
I think I once stood at the 5 'o clock or 6 'o clock position and was safe. I prefer to run with the hammers (on my sin) and have fun running with the hammers (in a play scenario, not a duel ;) )
That would work if the Hdin just stays in one spots and hammers. Most Hdins just run around in a Hammer Area
I meant for it to be used for tele-zerk. Idk. Getting too close seems too risky.
xJLx Slayer
24-11-2007, 19:57
I cant work they will tele, Charge, or even Vigor and spamm hammers. Remember a 18k Hdin with no concentration is atound 8k-10k dmg its still soo high. A barb can probably tank around 5 with 7klife
telezerk would only work once or twice or if you catch them offguard. because they will likely stop to spam hammers every few seconds, you have almost no window of opportunity to land on them and not eat hammers with nl zerk. tele w/o namelock at their 5-6clock is possible but i dont think you could ever land on them because they will have already desynced on your screen.
xxxkillerxxx
24-11-2007, 20:55
I suck on barb, HI.
Is random desynch ww and perfect tele-zerk all one can do vs. hdin then?
Either stick to widow and ww away and never get good or bite the sour apple and die alot until you improve enough to beat most/enough hdins with pub gear (just like you don't switch to optimal gear vs other classes in pubs if you want to improve your playing).
Of course I die sometimes when I chase hdins in pubs but my self-esteem isnt low enough for that to be a problem; I get better every time, I know very few would stand a chance 1v1 and killing someone with axes is far more satisfactory than spamming arrows for ten minutes and relying on your opponents stupidity to win. Besides, who runs for widow in pubs? Other option is to lose 7 bo permanently, no thanks. If some dumb pub hammer just walks around in their small hammerfield and you don't feel like going for a suicidal telezerk/ww just ignore them and kill the others meanwhile lol.
The more practice you get the easier it is to put pressure from the start, not letting them charge away without interfering with delayed nl tele/tele ahead->ww, zerking at any opportunity, predict their teleports and tele/ww there just like vs other casters, basically play more and more offensive while still not getting hit more. If you're spoiled and have leap on your barb just abuse it as much as you can, especially effective vs pub newbs.
I'm no expert and still have much room left for improvement but lets just say I know I'm on the right track when I get beaten x-0 when using fort/widow+grief+grief+14max gcs (I'd like to see anyone beat that dmg output lol) and suddenly start winning as soon as I switch to enigma, ditch widow and play more aggressive.
In my experience widow/fort is advocated by beginners who have problems against all hammerdins but notice that widow helps them vs a few hdins in pubs. I know, I've eaten my share of humble pie every time I thought I was getting pretty good at handling hdins.
Just ask yourself; do I still want to ww away like a pussy vs every single hammerdin in 6 months? ^^
Btw I read an old barb guide on this forum and the author said something like "Always play aggressive, even vs hammers. Correctly done it is stronger". What happened to that attitude?
xJLx Slayer
24-11-2007, 21:29
Are you on east ? Ladder on Non ladder?
MysticDragon
24-11-2007, 21:35
As an Hdin and a BvC player, I will tell you that tele zerk does not work and widow ONLY has a big effect on bad hdins. Widow doesn't help that much versus good Hdins and you will be screwed if the Hdin does BvH alot and/or delay locks you. If this is the case, you must rely on desynch whirls and predicting where your opponent will be with a tele whirl. Tele whirls can go either way. It can damage an Hdin quite a bit, but if he predicts where you will be, you'll take a lot of damage. Equally skilled, the Hdin has the upper hand, but that does not mean a BvC won't give a good match. Fort isn't that great versus Hdins. Competitive BvHers will tell you Enigma is better for the mobility.
MORKLEET
24-11-2007, 22:37
killer, since a good builded hammer (not the retarded jsp max light res aura "gozu" paladins) will have ~20k+ defense +oak stack i cant really see how you will zerk him or i didnt understood something? as for the widow the soon the barbs realize they can do a s*it with it to paladins the better. all this populist kids who has watch gosu smash kill gosu all with gozu widow, better mail him and ask for the videos where smiters eat his bvc with bow, hammers also. bow is *** but any paladin with widow and enigma/desynch can eat bvc.
akumaxxyz
24-11-2007, 23:01
killer, since a good builded hammer (not the retarded jsp max light res aura "gozu" paladins) will have ~20k+ defense +oak stack i cant really see how you will zerk him or i didnt understood something? as for the widow the soon the barbs realize they can do a s*it with it to paladins the better. all this populist kids who has watch gosu smash kill gosu all with gozu widow, better mail him and ask for the videos where smiters eat his bvc with bow, hammers also. bow is *** but any paladin with widow and enigma/desynch can eat bvc.
defense is not a problem vs hdins, only vs smiters. zerk might work if your really good at it, but i havent try it very much vs hdins. vs hdin always use angelic hsaru set wing helm this yields alot of ar cb/ds. unless theres some kind of hdin that uses exile and still reach 125 fcr lol then its impossible.
vs hammerdin: woulndt you have enough AR with hsarus alone? why angelic when you can dual raven+highlords. guil face is a good idea but i dont think cb does anything in pvp.
xxxkillerxxx
25-11-2007, 02:04
As an Hdin and a BvC player, I will tell you that tele zerk does not work and widow ONLY has a big effect on bad hdins. Widow doesn't help that much versus good Hdins and you will be screwed if the Hdin does BvH alot and/or delay locks you. If this is the case, you must rely on desynch whirls and predicting where your opponent will be with a tele whirl. Tele whirls can go either way. It can damage an Hdin quite a bit, but if he predicts where you will be, you'll take a lot of damage. Equally skilled, the Hdin has the upper hand, but that does not mean a BvC won't give a good match. Fort isn't that great versus Hdins. Competitive BvHers will tell you Enigma is better for the mobility.
That pretty much sums it up. Telezerk only works on garbage but well-timed counter-zerks can surprise even good hdins (unless they play 100% desynch) and >widow by far in pubs.
killer, since a good builded hammer (not the retarded jsp max light res aura "gozu" paladins) will have ~20k+ defense +oak stack i cant really see how you will zerk him or i didnt understood something? as for the widow the soon the barbs realize they can do a s*it with it to paladins the better. all this populist kids who has watch gosu smash kill gosu all with gozu widow, better mail him and ask for the videos where smiters eat his bvc with bow, hammers also. bow is *** but any paladin with widow and enigma/desynch can eat bvc.
Most good hammers I duel have ~15k def and don't really need oak to rape barbs. The only non-tmc-zaka-hammerdin I've dueled that reached 20k def was a level 99 hammer with loads of life/def scs. Anyway I got 32k ww ar and almost 50k zerk ar with anti-hammer gear so the chance to score a hit when pally doesn't block is good enough. Ofc zerk doesn't work vs all playing styles.
mainaman
26-11-2007, 07:22
killer, since a good builded hammer (not the retarded jsp max light res aura "gozu" paladins) will have ~20k+ defense +oak stack i cant really see how you will zerk him or i didnt understood something? as for the widow the soon the barbs realize they can do a s*it with it to paladins the better. all this populist kids who has watch gosu smash kill gosu all with gozu widow, better mail him and ask for the videos where smiters eat his bvc with bow, hammers also. bow is *** but any paladin with widow and enigma/desynch can eat bvc.you need to learn some more about the game before posting spam!
hammerdin with 20k def ??? I guess a retard with exile in stash will have that, otherwise even with perf gear and storm shield a hammerdin gets about 15k def.
On my BvC I have dueled a hammerdin that thought he is a big deal and tried to go widow vs me and the result was I sniped him with widow and tele -wws till he left in rage.
As for the original question there is no such thing as overal best dueling char , the one that remotely gets there is a hammerdin, a good hammerdin can smash any druid if played right, the one thing that can beat hammer consistently more or less is a necro, and a ww sin probably.
MORKLEET
28-11-2007, 21:19
you need to learn some more about the game before posting spam!
On my BvC I have dueled a hammerdin that thought he is a big deal and tried to go widow vs me and the result was I sniped him with widow and tele -wws till he left in rage.
i kill a exile smiter with my kicker. you know what this mean?
Uncle_Mike
28-11-2007, 21:28
i kill a exile smiter with my kicker. you know what this mean?
One of your posts just got deleted:
1. don't double post
2. don't insult other members
3. don't bypass the wordfilter
4. read the rules again
infraction added.
Uncle_Mike
28-11-2007, 21:42
posts deleted: 2
got a problem? PM me
well to start off, JSMOOOTH#1 no order np
now that we got #1 out of the way,
well i know sum bvc's just hurt alot, sum bowzons just hurt alot.
all classes are #2
i kill a exile smiter with my kicker. you know what this mean?
It means that your d2 knowledge and skill must be very huge.
Since youre speaking very bad english I assume you play on europe realm.
I cant log on right now because I'm at my parent's house where I got no d2 installed but if you like we can have some duels on EUNL in a week or so and you show me ''what this mean'' :prop: :prop:
/PS: xxxkillerxxx please clear your PM box :D
xxxkillerxxx
29-11-2007, 14:07
/PS: xxxkillerxxx please clear your PM box :D
Sorry I always forget checking it... (icq newb).
@topic: windies in pubs necs in private 1v1s :)
Necro!!! Why? CoZ I'm Necro... Just love playing Necro ^^
@Topic
A great dueler with lot of experiences who know what he/she is doing and have the strategies to beat his/her opponent. The rest wil be done by his/her luck.
Mythatic
29-11-2007, 19:44
I wonder how the off-topic got so far from what the maker of this thread was trying to ask.
I'm also kind of wondering about necros and windies though, I'm making a necro pretty soon. I'd say Nec, but probably not the best option against bmanas stacked sorcs.
scottymill
02-12-2007, 05:30
The maker was asking what is the best overall dueler between all classes. I dont know what the best overall class is but i do know if u got a good connection, good gear, and know what ur doing u got potential to b really good. There is an 83 wind druid on east ladder that is sick. Ive got lucky and killed him one time because he missed me with about ten tornados. I got his account to join duel games with him and he just runs them all. Ive not seen him lose since i got lucky about 3 weeks ago.
RedemptioN
02-12-2007, 07:25
actually teeth does help @@
but in the end druids > necs :S
it's like a 60/40 match up
iso balance plx
More like 100/0 in favor of Druid when Windex vs Xombie.
More like 100/0 in favor of Druid when Windex vs Xombie.
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR@!@@!!#$$!!$%
More like 100/0 in favor of Druid when Windex vs Xombie.
LOL PL8
oh wait :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.