View Full Version : bow and jav combo
hi, its my first time making an amazon and wondered what people thought about a bow and jav combo...
i'm planning on maxed strafe and maxed lightning fury. i'm considering using a goldstrike or a buriza for the bow and titan's revenge or demon's arch for the javelin. i'm also planning on using a clegaw's claw for the knockback and slow target...tell me if this sounds good or not. i'm on the track of maxing those two skills right now. lvl 18 going on to lvl 19 in a bit.
zarirazz
11-11-2007, 17:01
i like such build.. i've matted one using titans/windforce..
however with lightning fury, it is most likely that you'll utilise more of it than strafe.
nonetheless, strafe is a good back-up attack, putting some distance between yourself and the enemy while leeching mana whenever possible=)
crawlingdeadman
11-11-2007, 17:18
if you dont have a good solid physical damage bow, strafe may not be for you. it will still deal with lightning immunes well, but i think that if you're starting out on a zon and dont have too terribly great gear you may want to go with a frozen arrow/lightning fury hybrid instead ala fishyzon (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=464188).
i personally love hybrids, though so go for it. check out "My Zon" in my sig for my take on the LF/strafer [/shameless self promotion]
Strafe/LF or FA/LF (fishyzon) definitely works. All three skills don't need too many points to be effective (no need for lots synergies.).
Chien
reclinemusic
15-11-2007, 20:16
I started a zon recently with strictly java in mind. The more i think about it, I think it would make more sense to make a hybrid. I read the fishyzon (FA/LF) guide, and that looks fantastic. But I will list the gear i have available and perhaps someone can give me some guidance (I've had a fairly good ladder season so far with drops and trades ;) as to whether I should go strictly Java or go hybrid.
I'm currently lvl 50ish. I've maxed CS/LF so far. I'm saving the rest of my points currently. I put 1 each in D/A/E, which according the fishyzon guide was a mistake. Oh well. I have no points in the bow tree so far.
I have available: Infinity, Fort AP, Faith GMB, Nos Coil, Titans, Tgods, Stormshield, Griffon's (yay), Mav set, Bow/Jav gloves, Gores/WarTravs/Treks.
I already have a physical bowazon, so no need for another.
I'd probably go strictly jav if I had an Enigma, but I really don't see that happening anytime soon, as I'm broke from all that stuff listed above. placing the merc with infinity seems to be the biggest issue, 'cause I know he'll get stuck, never fails.
Any thoughts?
I've made loads of physical/lightning hybridzons over the years, but only one in 1.10+
I really like my current gal (and as good as LF is, I often find myself using the bow more often than the javs)
One suggestion though: Don't miss out on Charged Strike. LF and Strafe are noth great skills for taking out crowds, but neither they nor a low-mid lvl guided arrow are particularly good at killing bosses.
Based on my experience, I'd HIGHLY reccomend maxing charged strike. Don't be afraid to skimp a little on the bow side and/or let +skills up your passives in order to do so :)
tigercan
15-11-2007, 22:58
@reclinemusic:
Your gear is far in excess of the kind of gear that fishy had when he made his hybrid so you'll be fine.
You may want to switch out that belt for a Razortail to up your pierce though.
reclinemusic
16-11-2007, 00:29
Charged strike was the first thing I maxed, good to go there.
Thanks tiger. I think I have a razortail sitting on a mule somewhere :P Gonna be hard to ditch the tgods though ;_; Fanata from Faith gives quite a bit of AR, so we'll see how it goes. I'm excited about this build. zons ftw.
As far as the merc: Offensive/Combat/Def? Insight or Infinity? Fishy recommended Insight, which is nice and cheap.
tigercan
16-11-2007, 01:09
AR isn't an issue as CS, LF & FA (your 3 main attacks) are all auto-hit.
The bonus physical dmg & AR from the Faith aren't as useful as they would be on a physical damage based build since the bulk of your damage is elemental, but the +skills is definitely very nice. That aura benefits your merc though I guess (if anything survives long enough to reach him)
I'd go with either a Prayer/Insight or Defiance/Insight merc. You need the mana (unless you're packing lots of +mana/kill gear) and the extra healing/defense is always nice.
reclinemusic
16-11-2007, 03:05
I think I got pierce and penetrate mixed up, sorry. You're right AR isn't an issue. I guess what would really shine would be an Ice RW bow. /weep
charged strike can take out bosses? can someone explain? i dont really put points into vitality that much, since i need tons of dex for AR, so i'll probably die if i run up and start poking them with my javelin :p
i just found lycander's flank..maybe i should max up charged strike someday and see what happens on a spear build :)
adding dex to get high ar is not good. Many other things are better in providing ar bonus, lava gount gloves or prebuffing enchant will do the trick as will penetrate. Orther option are using ar charms. Only add dex for damage with a bow or for max block with a high blocking sheild.
Lycanders flank isn't that good combined with lightning skills. You lose a shield and you don't win skills nor attack speed. Charged strike will get the job done, if you go with two lightning skill, it has to be lf and cs. Get max block, decent res and good life. If you play smart, you will kill bosses more then fast enough.
Charged strike is good for the simple fact that bosses are big monsters and will be damaged by most of the bolts. So if you 500 average damage with 10 bolts for attack, you do 5000 average damage with each attack. That's more then decent.
yeah, I tried poking at some super uniques in nightmare mode and they were pretty easy. I just noticed that when I switch to my javelin gear, I don't see the attack rating when I open up my profile. My attack rating only shows for my buriza. What's up with that? Does this mean pumping points into dex has no meaning for javzons (except for max block)?
reclinemusic
19-11-2007, 20:48
As tigercan mentioned: Good thing about charged strike is you don't have to actually land a hit for the jav to release bolts. Same for frozen arrow, the cold damage always procs.
I've been digging my hybrid. Decided to go with Lycander's aim - ceremonial bow, its giving me 4 additional skills on the bow tree. FA is more powerful than I thought it would be. Lightning strike would only be giving me 1% synergy in lightning fury, so I think the points spend on the cold tree were not wasted.
yea, I agree. Freezing arrow rocks!
So I'm trying to make a decision here too. FA or Strafe???? I can't make up my mind! I'm not too far in, so I may re do her.
crawlingdeadman
04-12-2007, 02:37
what prevents you from using both?
Seriously, none of them. What exactly do you need the bow skills for? What type of character is your javazon in the first place? SP (vanilla/RWM) or Bnet? Do you play her just for fun or for MF purposes?
If you go for fun or style, make PJ/FA hybrid - those skills suit together much better. The value of any backup skill for a lightning javazon is arguable at best even in vanilla SP. Ordinary wand of Lower Resistance which can be shopped at vendors works against the majority of LIs, and one point in Jab is usually enough to deal with the rest. You can use a few points to get Strafe if you wish, but there is no need to place more than 1 point here (crappy ED%).
Talking about Strafe, don't forget that the most annoying LIs - Black/Burning Souls have 90% Physical Resistance which makes Strafe pathetic unless you have some quick source of Amp/Decrep. Reaper's Toll merc is a) slow and b) Souls tend to spread all over the place after the first volley, while any sources on javazon herself (Atma's, WWS) weaken her lightning or physical attacks respectively.
Personally I find a LR wand more annoying to use and far less effective than FA. Strafe has no real place there though.
So I'm trying to make a decision here too. FA or Strafe???? I can't make up my mind! I'm not too far in, so I may re do her.
it largly depends on the wealth you have. Going good on strafe and lightning is more expensive then going good on cold and lightning. Cold and lightning depend on +skills - shako is good - where strafe/lightning needs ias, +damage, leech - andy is much better. So if you want cheap, that still rocks with hig budget, go fa/lf. If you have a good budget, you can pick one, they both work great. Strafe has the advantage that you can use multi, guide and magic to good effect, while with fa, you will probably be limited to fa.
@ Ugla: burning souls have little life, and they are hard to see, an auto-aim skill or a big volley of arrows seems usefull.
P.S. lower resist wand has no style points and a pj/fa hybride needs a remake.
wrath perhaps?
[edit]
If you don't want to use a conviction merc - IM or just principle -, you can use a faith merc and a hybrid makes a lot of sence with that merc.
Personally I find a LR wand more annoying to use and far less effective than FA. Strafe has no real place there though.
That happens in untwinked play if you don't have any -%Enemy Lightning Resistance on your gear. In that case, your damage to broken LIs is merely 7-8% of its original value. Once you get e.g. Thunderstroke, your damage will be much higher (22-23%) than you could possibly reach with a dedicated FA build. The biggest annoyances with wands are block and FCR. Block can be fixed by using dagger/throwing dagger instead of a wand (though these are certainly harder to shop), while proper shield choice helps with FCR.
Untwinked hybrids face other obstacles, like the necessity to build up their resists without a shield.
crawlingdeadman
04-12-2007, 22:33
on my lf/strafe hybrid (that isnt in my sig!) i use the following skills nearly every time i play:
right click:
strafe
multi
fury
decoy
slow missles
valk
left click bow side:
frozen arrow (90% of the time. i use it a lot when i've gotten too far ahead of myself and need to keep things off me for a few ticks to throw up a decoy or if something comes at me too fast and i need to see if it's li or not.)
magic arrow (LI/PI bosses)
GA (dont use it much any more)
charged strike (jav side)
the natural amount of +skills you have on for fury makes a one point frozen arrow effective enough to use for its freezing.
That happens in untwinked play if you don't have any -%Enemy Lightning Resistance on your gear. In that case, your damage to broken LIs is merely 7-8% of its original value. Once you get e.g. Thunderstroke, your damage will be much higher (22-23%) than you could possibly reach with a dedicated FA build. The biggest annoyances with wands are block and FCR. Block can be fixed by using dagger/throwing dagger instead of a wand (though these are certainly harder to shop), while proper shield choice helps with FCR.
Yes I know why a LR wand on its own doesn't do much, but thunderstrokes would be an additional annoyance because I either have to repair them a lot, or switch them with titans all the time. I also doubt it would be faster than FA anyway, it doesn't take a lot of arrows to take down most LI's.
FA is just a more elegant solution, again IMO.
@stephan: you don't have to repair/swap the weapon once you find the Griffon's :wink3: ..it took me only three years of playing :rolleyes: You can also use faceted shield, which is more affordable if you run Andy/Meph for some time.
With my curent setup, i.e. Griffon's faceted to a total of -24%eLR and slvl3 LR-charges, this yields -8%-24%=-32% to (100%LR) LIs. The monsters with 105%LR are quite rare, while 110%+ ones are unbreakable by vanilla means.
Now, those 32% are taken from fully synergized skills. Slvl35 CS releases 10 bolts with 1-7k damage each, i.e. 35k average damage to a monster with 0%LR. Hardly any broken LI manages to survive even a single average ~10k strike (32% out of 35k).
When fighting larger packs of LIs, slvl35 LF deals 1-2.6k, with up to five possible hits (with full pierce). This is of course in ideal case, but we can assume at least 3 hits, i.e. 3.9k average damage to a monster with 0%LR. The resulting 1.25k average damage (to all monsters) is still a nice amount when the odds are against melee intervention (conviction Souls).
I guess FA can do ~3 times higher damage vs dense packs if we consider pierce in the same way as before. Could you provide us with exact FA values (level, damage), please?
In case of more spread formations, the performance will be comparable. Breakable bosses will be owned by CS in no time, while FA will likely beat Jab against unbreakables.
@stephan: you don't have to repair/swap the weapon once you find the Griffon's :wink3: ..it took me only three years of playing :rolleyes: You can also use faceted shield, which is more affordable if you run Andy/Meph for some time.
On SP I have more than 10,000 meph and andy runs on my name. One lightning facet. :tongue:
Now, those 32% are taken from fully synergized skills. Slvl35 CS releases 10 bolts with 1-7k damage each, i.e. 35k average damage to a monster with 0%LR. Hardly any broken LI manages to survive even a single average ~10k strike (32% out of 35k).
I don't believe you always get all bolts to hit against an average target. I know I don't. Anyway, half of that should still be enough, in most cases.
I guess FA can do ~3 times higher damage vs dense packs if we consider pierce in the same way as before. Could you provide us with exact FA values (level, damage), please?
A level 30 FA with maxed cold arrow does 1802-1836 damage. Souls have 33% Cold res so 2/3 of that is ~1200 damage, so a single soul on p1 would be taken down in 3 or 4 arrows, without having to switch your weapon from your inventory or needing a Griffons or a XX/-20 Shield. Before you have switched back the target is probably already down with FA. All you need is something like a Lycander's (meph dropped plenty of those :rolleyes: ) or a Melody.
On SP I have more than 10,000 meph and andy runs on my name. One lightning facet. :tongue:
I had better luck with lightning facets, found 4 until now - the best one (-4/+5) resides in the Griffon's. The rest got stuffed in Nat's armor - I had the idea of using partial Nat's back then.. Not exactly brilliant move, but they were like -3/3 anyway and the armor may still be used by some sort of Phoenix Striker..
I don't believe you always get all bolts to hit against an average target. I know I don't. Anyway, half of that should still be enough, in most cases.
Yes, since the smaller creatures have less life in general. Besides, it's not always a disadvantage; see below.
A level 30 FA with maxed cold arrow does 1802-1836 damage. Souls have 33% Cold res so 2/3 of that is ~1200 damage, so a single soul on p1 would be taken down in 3 or 4 arrows, without having to switch your weapon from your inventory or needing a Griffons or a XX/-20 Shield. Before you have switched back the target is probably already down with FA. All you need is something like a Lycander's (meph dropped plenty of those :rolleyes: ) or a Melody.
Nice damage on FA :thumbsup: Maybe you could do even better with perfect Wizendraw against Souls. Switching is instant (at least it seems to me), i.e. one frame. With the CS values listed above, /p1 souls go down in one hit, often two of them, because of those stray bolts :smiley:
The LR casting animation is the slowest part of the process (17 frames with Lidless Wall, 15 frames with Lidless&Griffon's) taking the time of two ordinary attacks. Fortunatelly, it's often possible to curse the entire pack before they separate.
This roughly means that by the time you fire those 3 arrows, I've cursed and struck a loner as well. Otherwise, it takes 2-3 LFs to kill a smaller pack, where you probably suffice with 1-2 FAs (thanks to pierce) gaining the upper hand.
Nice damage on FA :thumbsup: Maybe you could do even better with perfect Wizendraw against Souls.
Wizendraw with FA at level 26 indeeds outdamages a level 30 FA without -cold res against souls, although the amount of arrows required remains the same.
Of course the major advantage of going lightning only lies in the boss killing with CS. There your build definitely wins.
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