bowzon with ES problems [Archive] - Diablo 3 & Diablo 2 Forums

yetidiah

05-11-2007, 11:31

I followed tienje's great "hybrid" zon guide, and I just keep getting eaten alive by ES sorcs. Using the tank gear described i can run away for a while getting in a few GA's but i can never get through ES before they kill me. I have started using higher sorb/res to counter them but then my damage lacks and I still can't get through ES before dying. I tried OW -> running away -> OW and although it does hurt them, they usually get super offensive and tele spam like crazy on top of me. (with non-bm sorb (1 piece sorb 1 piece max res) i can survive 3-5 fireballs, 2-3 blizzards, 1-5 lightnings) I tried a huge amount of poison, but then that felt like it was bm because the duels were just shoot -> wait -> shoot dead. LB does about 3k damage right now and I have been using it with mediocre success (approx 3-4/10 duels I win when using it opposed to 1-2/10 without).

So for ES sorcs should I just get more light damage for lightning bolt (skillers, griffons, etc. or is there some method I am missing because right now GA just isn't cutting it.

inanefedaykin

05-11-2007, 22:31

Poison and OW are really your only options. It's not like either of them are BM to use so go ahead.

TienJe

06-11-2007, 02:44

for ES sorcs, depending on the strength of their ES, i'll usually swap to a duress armor. it sounds like you need to practice your walking a little bit, as a simple switch to "super aggressive" mode for sorcs shouldn't result in an easy kill for them.

rather than attempting to hit with OW and then run away for 8 seconds once it triggers, keep firing while you walk. the arrows will still deal a good amount of damage, and the kb/block will screw with their timing, making it much safer for you if done right.

and yea, don't feel bad about stacking a few poison charms. but even if you do put a lot of pd on, stick with the walking strat rather than attempting to hit and run.

now, blizz sorcs require a different strategy completely, but i won't go into that here.

lendial

06-11-2007, 03:17

its completely breaks down into how godly your gear is in relation to theirs. do you sport more faster run walk than a bugatti veyron? im talking about 125-170 rw so that you will desynce and make their linear projectiles a joke.

correct me if im wrong but you should rely more so on your mobility using raw run speed rather than actualy taking hits with hp and resistances.

also are they max block? dr max block AND ES is really brutal unless your gear is equal or better.

akumaxxyz

06-11-2007, 04:05

this is extremely easy if you got mass run walk and proper resistance just keep shooting until it drops make sure you got knockback, if they dont have block use strafe for easy kill

Hyphy

06-11-2007, 04:14

teinje duress+lacerator= sup'd

TienJe

06-11-2007, 04:57

this is extremely easy if you got mass run walk and proper resistance just keep shooting until it drops make sure you got knockback, if they dont have block use strafe for easy kill
easier said than done...

akumaxxyz

06-11-2007, 05:10

easier said than done...

how hard is to avoid projectiles? with 3run max dmg scs +harmony on switch its insanely fast

TienJe

06-11-2007, 05:15

how hard is to avoid projectiles? with 3run max dmg scs +harmony on switch its insanely fast
if you're always running, when will you shoot? theres no doubt you can dodge projectiles indefinitely, but if you want to do damage, it won't be that easy. a sorc will easily keep on top of you even if you have a harmony bow, and the moment you try and fire, you'll be in danger of dodge/stunlock from incoming projectiles from both the sorc and the chilling armor. you can't solve the problem with just mass frw.

if it were that simple, you'd see every zon on the realm use harmony.

luwithit

06-11-2007, 05:23

There is a trick for vs sorc, I think Tienje mentioned it in his guide. But sorcs are among the easiest characters for me.

akumaxxyz

06-11-2007, 05:34

if you're always running, when will you shoot? theres no doubt you can dodge projectiles indefinitely, but if you want to do damage, it won't be that easy. a sorc will easily keep on top of you even if you have a harmony bow, and the moment you try and fire, you'll be in danger of dodge/stunlock from incoming projectiles from both the sorc and the chilling armor. you can't solve the problem with just mass frw.

if it were that simple, you'd see every zon on the realm use harmony.
aslong as you are out of reach of name locks you can fire no sor can tank 7k ga's with 70% critical strike max block or not

TienJe

06-11-2007, 05:43

aslong as you are out of reach of name locks you can fire no sor can tank 7k ga's with 70% critical strike max block or not
see, thats the thing. chainlocks will keep the sorc within range constantly. if you're going to wait until the opponent misses a CL and you outrun the sorc before you fire, you'll be running a marathon everytime you fire. when you do manage to fire those precious few arrows, ES + MB + chilling armor will negate most of your damage. for the amount of running you will be doing per arrow, you'll run out of southward space to move fairly quickly.

like other people have been saying, high frw is quintessential, but you won't succeed just by running away.

akumaxxyz

06-11-2007, 05:45

you got time to shoot a arrow when you run chilling armor wont save you everytime, if sorb was allowed a ama can just sit tank shoot any sor

TienJe

06-11-2007, 06:12

you got time to shoot a arrow when you run chilling armor wont save you everytime, if sorb was allowed a ama can just sit tank shoot any sor
now that you've put aside trying to outrun the sorc, you'll start to see why people choose the faith build. if you use proper walking technique, you'll be able to dodge the projectiles at a close range while keeping up a fast rate of attack, all without attempting to run out of namelock range.

even if you sorb, it won't protect you from dodgelock. once you get caught with that first fb, if the sorc is there firing a second right after, you won't be able to get any shots off, no matter how little damage you take.

akumaxxyz

06-11-2007, 06:16

now that you've put aside trying to outrun the sorc, you'll start to see why people choose the faith build. if you use proper walking technique, you'll be able to dodge the projectiles at a close range while keeping up a fast rate of attack, all without attempting to run out of namelock range.

even if you sorb, it won't protect you from dodgelock. once you get caught with that first fb, if the sorc is there firing a second right after, you won't be able to get any shots off, no matter how little damage you take.

when did i say anything about faith? you use harmony on switch gmb faith on main hand. who says you must use dodge? you dont have to put any skills in those, no more locks simple. believe it or not you can kill any tank sor with a 2k life zon just needs good dmg and mass run walk. i played zons since the days of 1.09

yetidiah

06-11-2007, 06:22

I use the south walk zig zag from the guide but when I do that they get aggressive and instead of trying to tele stomp the constantly tele below or to the side and shoot in front of me and i either dodge just in time to get hit by the next attack or get hit and die. running away isnt an option even with harmony most sorcs can keep up with tele (I have 130ish frw w/out harmony)

So far LB has worked pretty well, but with most of the sorcs I duel GA isn't working. (MB ES CA on most of them) every now and then i can get one with the zig zag walk but it isnt very often.

I can consistently win if I just get 6-7k poison damage and OW, but that makes the duels lame. Do you guys think a spiral pattern might work, like they tele stomp and I just run expanding start/stop circles to throw off the aim?

akumaxxyz

06-11-2007, 06:32

TienJe

06-11-2007, 06:41

when did i say anything about faith? you use harmony on switch gmb faith on main hand. who says you must use dodge? you dont have to put any skills in those, no more locks simple. believe it or not you can kill any tank sor with a 2k life zon just needs good dmg and mass run walk. i played zons since the days of 1.09
you can't seriously be arguing that you shouldn't put any points in dodges...

i'm sure the OP is considering GM rule sets. if you can kill sorcs the way you're describing, then you're not dueling the right ones. ES sorcs with MB and CA will tank a ton and very easily negate/block 90% of your arrows.

here are some numbers:

assuming you can somehow get 7k physical damage and 2k life with good frw, because of the wide damage, you'll average 7.2k damage with DS + CS (already a very optimistic number). with the pvp reduction, that brings it down to 1.2k damage. apply 90% average ES on sorcs, which brings you down to 120 life taken away per shot. Max block (not even counting chilling armor) blocks 75% of the arrows, which brings your damage down to an average of 30 damage per arrow.

saying that you can easily win a battle where you only deal 30 damage per arrow is a bit unrealistic. sorcs average 1.3k life, and at 30 damage per arrow, results in an average of ~45 arrows required for the kill, assuming they're all on target.

I use the south walk zig zag from the guide but when I do that they get aggressive and instead of trying to tele stomp the constantly tele below or to the side and shoot in front of me and i either dodge just in time to get hit by the next attack or get hit and die. running away isnt an option even with harmony most sorcs can keep up with tele (I have 130ish frw w/out harmony)

So far LB has worked pretty well, but with most of the sorcs I duel GA isn't working. (MB ES CA on most of them) every now and then i can get one with the zig zag walk but it isnt very often.

I can consistently win if I just get 6-7k poison damage and OW, but that makes the duels lame. Do you guys think a spiral pattern might work, like they tele stomp and I just run expanding start/stop circles to throw off the aim?
if the sorc starts to teleport to the south of you, start going "zig zags" upwards. its not so much a zig zag but a back and forth curving motion. you are basically just trying to constantly change your trajectory so that projectiles fired won't be on the right path to hit you.

trying to use patterns doesn't really work, because the most important aspect of the walking path is that it has an element of randomness in it. i find it hard to believe that LB is working better than GA. do you have a video of one of those duels?

MysticDragon

06-11-2007, 07:05

even if you sorb, it won't protect you from dodgelock. once you get caught with that first fb, if the sorc is there firing a second right after, you won't be able to get any shots off, no matter how little damage you take.

FROST NOVA! :O

akumaxxyz

06-11-2007, 07:13

i dont want to repeat what i said, chilling armor doesnt always block arrows, just throwing some numbers and percentages means nothing, gm rule sets is different from everyone. imo 90%+ es sors have no place to whine about absorb. as long as you have 80 + resist on a zon you can kill any kind of sor
es or not

TienJe

06-11-2007, 07:27

FROST NOVA! :O
#1 sorc lololol

i dont want to repeat what i said, chilling armor doesnt always block arrows, just throwing some numbers and percentages means nothing, gm rule sets is different from everyone. imo 90%+ es sors have no place to whine about absorb. as long as you have 80 + resist on a zon you can kill any kind of sor
es or not
i didn't even count chilling armor into the estimations. numbers and percentages is what d2 runs on, so disregarding them is like disregarding the game.

chao~!

yetidiah

06-11-2007, 07:34

LB was only working better because it always hits and the kb screws them up. I swapped gear around and got a GMB faith and it helps out a lot, went from 1-2/10 to about 5/10 I can't believe the difference. I still use matriarchal for non es sorcs because i an get better res more life etc, but changing to the GMB for ES really helped. The spiral thing i was talking about works OK you just have to switch between run and walk and stop every now and then to keep them off target. I watched the videos again, and my technique was kind of crappy so I helped that as much as i could too. I am just happy to be close to breaking even in kills vs them.

akumaxxyz

06-11-2007, 07:51

#1 sorc lololol

i didn't even count chilling armor into the estimations. numbers and percentages is what d2 runs on, so disregarding them is like disregarding the game.

chao~!

now you sound like that olba guy, chilling armor doesnt always blocked you will get hit regardless of what protection you have, if sors want to be that lame to a amazon,blocking all the damage, zons can just load up ow and psn oh yeah try maxing sm to boot

TienJe

06-11-2007, 08:04

now you sound like that olba guy, chilling armor doesnt always blocked you will get hit regardless of what protection you have, if sors want to be that lame to a amazon,blocking all the damage, zons can just load up ow and psn oh yeah try maxing sm to boot
...and then the sorc can just hide and replen life. WUT A FUN DOOL!

ce olba was a douche, but at least his posts had some value.

akumaxxyz

06-11-2007, 08:14

value? all he does is repeat what other people says. first i dont even know why is poison considered bm on zons, if psn was bm sins/necs/plag amas are too
duels are suppose to be quick pase where both sides can dish out damage.
if you hide in a duel you are auto lose

TienJe

06-11-2007, 08:25

yetidiah

06-11-2007, 09:06

akumaxxyz

06-11-2007, 10:01

ce olba at least used evidence and numbers instead of arguing with blanket statements.

the reasoning behind why poison is bm on zons is because of the long length duration and total damage. back in .09 (and today), it perpetuated a run-away style that would, in your own words, be "auto lose". sins/necs use skills that have a much shorter duration and short range so they can't just run away, and plague zons are ok because, well, they suck.

so your saying im making blank statements? anyone can find some numbers about d2 and post it.
you saying about poison being bm is just a personal opinion, it does not have to be on a zon any melee char can use poison and you can label them bm as well.

why are you favoring sins/necs just because their poison is shorter? it is still poison which goes through es regardless of the duration, and oh running isnt auto lose hiding is which is what you said

your idea of whats bm/gm in general is just ridiculous

akumaxxyz

06-11-2007, 10:03

TienJe

06-11-2007, 10:39

so your saying im making blank statements? anyone can find some numbers about d2 and post it.
you saying about poison being bm is just a personal opinion, it does not have to be on a zon any melee char can use poison and you can label them bm as well.

why are you favoring sins/necs just because their poison is shorter? it is still poison which goes through es regardless of the duration, and oh running isnt auto lose hiding is which is what you said

your idea of whats bm/gm in general is just ridiculous
i can't believe you're arguing against using examples and data. even if the numbers had been posted before, it would mean nothing in terms of the validity of the argument. the worldwide scientific community runs on data from both the past and the present, and actively searches for mathematical models and data to support those qualitative arguments and theories.

i'm quoting NL clan vs clan dueling rules for what i consider to be convention. there are hosts of duelers that agree with my "ridiculous" ideas.

the logic was that the duration of the poison is what changes your play style; its not a bias towards sins or necs. if you have short duration poison, you won't need to teleport/run away while the poison does its work. a good number of clans put the limit on poison from items, leaving poison from skills viable. the only difference between hiding and running is whether you can keep up with them or not.

now whether overly defensive play should be reason enough to make something BM is another issue. i'm not trying to arguing whether the rule set makes sense or not, just over what is convention.

Uncle_Mike

06-11-2007, 10:57

not another gm/bm thread please :smiley:

TienJe

06-11-2007, 10:59

not another gm/bm thread please :smiley:
:yikes: .

akumaxxyz

06-11-2007, 13:05

i can't believe you're arguing against using examples and data. even if the numbers had been posted before, it would mean nothing in terms of the validity of the argument. the worldwide scientific community runs on data from both the past and the present, and actively searches for mathematical models and data to support those qualitative arguments and theories.

i'm quoting NL clan vs clan dueling rules for what i consider to be convention. there are hosts of duelers that agree with my "ridiculous" ideas.

the logic was that the duration of the poison is what changes your play style; its not a bias towards sins or necs. if you have short duration poison, you won't need to teleport/run away while the poison does its work. a good number of clans put the limit on poison from items, leaving poison from skills viable. the only difference between hiding and running is whether you can keep up with them or not.

now whether overly defensive play should be reason enough to make something BM is another issue. i'm not trying to arguing whether the rule set makes sense or not, just over what is convention.

yes i think those rules are ridiculous, calling a bowazon using psn bm while you can tank it all day with es/mb chilling sor. sins/necs can tele bowazons dont, all they do is hit and run.

anyone who tele spam 3 screens is not even worth dueling, if someone does that crap i consider they auto lose

TienJe

06-11-2007, 17:34

yes i think those rules are ridiculous, calling a bowazon using psn bm while you can tank it all day with es/mb chilling sor. sins/necs can tele bowazons dont, all they do is hit and run.

anyone who tele spam 3 screens is not even worth dueling, if someone does that crap i consider they auto lose
the thing about rule sets is that you need to consider the enforcibility. it would become way too complicated if you had different stipulations for every matchup. trying to balance out every possible duel would bring specific rules like "bvbs can't whirl against bvcs because it unfair". once you started down that road, people would never agree on what the rules should be.

if zons were allowed poison across the board, you'd see them be way too strong in other matchups, and if we tried to just allow poison/absorb globally, you'd just shift the inbalance and put sorcs on the bottom. the same thing goes with banning venom; you'd just make the wwsin completely useless in all the other duels. it's just the nature of rules that you will have some matchups that are unbalanced. even though the rules are there to attempt to balance pvp out, its unreasonable to assume they will completely even out everything.

there was a consession made for zons when the rules were agreed upon (by some ad-hoc mechanism), probably because zons were such powerhouses in .09. that's just how it is. maybe in some other alternate universe with another permutation of the rules sorcs were on the bottom, but not this one.

anyway, this has taken up far too much time. g'day.

MassiveSin

06-11-2007, 18:50

when I play with my own gm set (non-pubs mind you) i limit myself to 850 psn damage. I don't have a problem with poison and run away (huzzah for rabies) it just isn't something I want to do with a zon.

Give you my 2 cents for what it's worth,
You should not feel bad about using poison at all because anyone can go to the shop and load up on antidotes and as soon as they turn green chug one and receive very minimal damage. It’s not your problem they don't want to have them in inventory.

Poison is a counter to the ES skill built in by Blizzard to balance out the skill. SO if you want to challenge yourself to not use poison on an ES sorc that of course is your prerogative.

My suggestion to beat an ES sorc without use of Poison would be to have a Pride (costly) on switch and use a maxed out impale & Critical Strike with as much IAS as you can. When they tele on you may beat them to the punch with a % chance of an uninterruptible attack. If you can... toss in an Inner Sight to increase the odds you hit when they come in for close range sometime during your duel.

akumaxxyz

07-11-2007, 00:45

the thing about rule sets is that you need to consider the enforcibility. it would become way too complicated if you had different stipulations for every matchup. trying to balance out every possible duel would bring specific rules like "bvbs can't whirl against bvcs because it unfair". once you started down that road, people would never agree on what the rules should be.

if zons were allowed poison across the board, you'd see them be way too strong in other matchups, and if we tried to just allow poison/absorb globally, you'd just shift the inbalance and put sorcs on the bottom. the same thing goes with banning venom; you'd just make the wwsin completely useless in all the other duels. it's just the nature of rules that you will have some matchups that are unbalanced. even though the rules are there to attempt to balance pvp out, its unreasonable to assume they will completely even out everything.

there was a consession made for zons when the rules were agreed upon (by some ad-hoc mechanism), probably because zons were such powerhouses in .09. that's just how it is. maybe in some other alternate universe with another permutation of the rules sorcs were on the bottom, but not this one.

anyway, this has taken up far too much time. g'day.

now thats what i call ridiculous rule. your almost neglating all the zons damge in the first place , so poison/ow is the only way to damage you. if you dont allow the other side to hurt you its no longer a duel besides theres poison resist itams.

y suggestion to beat an ES sorc without use of Poison would be to have a Pride (costly) on switch and use a maxed out impale & Critical Strike with as much IAS as you can. When they tele on you may beat them to the punch with a % chance of an uninterruptible attack. If you can... toss in an Inner Sight to increase the odds you hit when they come in for close range sometime during your duel.
haha impale is way too slow and pride got no ias

TienJe

07-11-2007, 07:30

now thats what i call ridiculous rule. your almost neglating all the zons damge in the first place , so poison/ow is the only way to damage you. if you dont allow the other side to hurt you its no longer a duel besides theres poison resist itams.

haha impale is way too slow and pride got no ias
you missed the entire point of that post :undecided:

akumaxxyz

07-11-2007, 07:41

what point? i get the impression that you think psn is bm on zons vs es sors

TienJe

07-11-2007, 08:26

what point? i get the impression that you think psn is bm on zons vs es sors
:sad2:

the point is that you can't have different rules for every individual matchup because it would be impossible to agree on. it would just result in countless iterations of rule editing whenever someone felt they were at a disadvantage. thats why we need to have global rules.

GM duels will never be perfectly even. you'll always have matchups that are advantageous for one side. if you need to change the rules so zons get a boost vs sorcs, why don't people change the rules so that fire druids are viable in pvp as well? we've all come to accept that zons won't easily destroy ES sorcs, just like how we assume a hammerdin will beat a smiter. you don't see people clamouring for no concentration vs smiters because the damage is too high. most rules allow zons modest amounts of poison to counter ES anyway.

if you allowed massive poison for zons globally, they'd be too strong in the other matchups, and then the opponents would need rule changes to re-balance. a concession had to be made, and zons were the victim this time. rules are there to balance out pvp overall, not to make sure that every single duel is perfectly even, for the reasons stated above. i feel psn and absorb are BM vs sorcs only in context of the rest of pvp. if there were only sorcs and zons in d2, then yes, i'd allow poison.

i'm convinced that banning massive poison from items resulted in the most balanced pvp overall, although some builds suffered as a result.

EDIT: wow, i just repeated the entire post.

inanefedaykin

07-11-2007, 10:33

*giggles at anyone that thinks mass poison is BM*

akumaxxyz

07-11-2007, 12:12

:sad2:

the point is that you can't have different rules for every individual matchup because it would be impossible to agree on. it would just result in countless iterations of rule editing whenever someone felt they were at a disadvantage. thats why we need to have global rules.

GM duels will never be perfectly even. you'll always have matchups that are advantageous for one side. if you need to change the rules so zons get a boost vs sorcs, why don't people change the rules so that fire druids are viable in pvp as well? we've all come to accept that zons won't easily destroy ES sorcs, just like how we assume a hammerdin will beat a smiter. you don't see people clamouring for no concentration vs smiters because the damage is too high. most rules allow zons modest amounts of poison to counter ES anyway.

if you allowed massive poison for zons globally, they'd be too strong in the other matchups, and then the opponents would need rule changes to re-balance. a concession had to be made, and zons were the victim this time. rules are there to balance out pvp overall, not to make sure that every single duel is perfectly even, for the reasons stated above. i feel psn and absorb are BM vs sorcs only in context of the rest of pvp. if there were only sorcs and zons in d2, then yes, i'd allow poison.

i'm convinced that banning massive poison from items resulted in the most balanced pvp overall, although some builds suffered as a result.

EDIT: wow, i just repeated the entire post.

duels are meant to be both parties can hurt the other one, saying massive poison is bm is just saying high dmg poison builds bm in general. btw poison is not so strong as to 1.09 on zons, if poison on zon is strong as you say you would see every pub zon with it but you dont and es sors whine about absorb are just hypocrites because since psn/ow can go through es they dont have the advantage anymore

TienJe

07-11-2007, 12:47

duels are meant to be both parties can hurt the other one, saying massive poison is bm is just saying high dmg poison builds bm in general. btw poison is not so strong as to 1.09 on zons, if poison on zon is strong as you say you would see every pub zon with it but you dont and es sors whine about absorb are just hypocrites because since psn/ow can go through es they dont have the advantage anymore
yes, duels in theory are meant to be that way, but its not possible to make every individual match up balanced with a global set of rules, which is why we tend to look at the consequences for any rule for the pvp environment in its entirety.

and no, i'm not saying that massive poison is bm. i'm saying that massive poison charms are. theres a distinction there. if you look at all the characters that use poison damage skills, i don't think you can say that any one of them are overpowered, because their poison skills all have characteristics that make them weaker. venom damage is really not that high (overall damage is still less than bvcs with grief), poison nova has a relatively short range, and its extremely difficult to hit someone with plague jav (huge cast timer too). adding massive poison damage to skills like GA and MS that hit very easily make the zons overpowered. to reiterate, the high poison damage skills may be overpowered against sorcs, but in the context of pvp in general, they're relatively balanced.

your point about equilibrium and a natural gravitation towards poison is logical, though i think you're missing out on the effects of the BM environment. the reason why you don't see many full PD bm zons is because poison isn't a good source of damage in BM. just like how ghosts are bad for BM because open wounds' damage is too slow, its the same thing with poison. when you throw GM rules aside and introduce healing pots/rejuvs/antidotes, poison loses its attractiveness. its only strong when you apply them in GM theaters.

i could also make the equilibrium argument and say that rules would not have settled in this permutation if people didn't find poison charms to be overpowered. and if those poison-skill-using characters were really that strong, why don't you see more of them around? like i said before, you're totally right about poison being a good balancing factor for zons vs sorcs, but allowing poison charms throws off the rest of pvp. there is some merit in perhaps adjusting the current limit of poison though.

akumaxxyz

07-11-2007, 23:14

yes, duels in theory are meant to be that way, but its not possible to make every individual match up balanced with a global set of rules, which is why we tend to look at the consequences for any rule for the pvp environment in its entirety.

and no, i'm not saying that massive poison is bm. i'm saying that massive poison charms are. theres a distinction there. if you look at all the characters that use poison damage skills, i don't think you can say that any one of them are overpowered, because their poison skills all have characteristics that make them weaker. venom damage is really not that high (overall damage is still less than bvcs with grief), poison nova has a relatively short range, and its extremely difficult to hit someone with plague jav (huge cast timer too). adding massive poison damage to skills like GA and MS that hit very easily make the zons overpowered. to reiterate, the high poison damage skills may be overpowered against sorcs, but in the context of pvp in general, they're relatively balanced.

your point about equilibrium and a natural gravitation towards poison is logical, though i think you're missing out on the effects of the BM environment. the reason why you don't see many full PD bm zons is because poison isn't a good source of damage in BM. just like how ghosts are bad for BM because open wounds' damage is too slow, its the same thing with poison. when you throw GM rules aside and introduce healing pots/rejuvs/antidotes, poison loses its attractiveness. its only strong when you apply them in GM theaters.

i could also make the equilibrium argument and say that rules would not have settled in this permutation if people didn't find poison charms to be overpowered. and if those poison-skill-using characters were really that strong, why don't you see more of them around? like i said before, you're totally right about poison being a good balancing factor for zons vs sorcs, but allowing poison charms throws off the rest of pvp. there is some merit in perhaps adjusting the current limit of poison though.

poison is just like extra bonus damage i dont see how it affects pvp in anyway if someone uses poison you can use antidotes or use psn your self. casters shouldnt be calling poison bm anyway

TienJe

08-11-2007, 01:08

poison is just like extra bonus damage i dont see how it affects pvp in anyway if someone uses poison you can use antidotes or use psn your self. casters shouldnt be calling poison bm anyway
if you allow antidotes, whats the point of giving zons poison then? you would have made everything more complicated, and yet the status quo wouldn't have changed. it doesn't make any sense.

nex

08-11-2007, 01:57

adding massive poison damage to skills like GA and MS that hit very easily make the zons overpowered.

Hm, you sure you aren't overrating poison? Since poison can easily be negated with +max res (no, not potions, I don't like them either) and you also need full inventory of poison charms to make big impact which sacrifices other stats (like physical dmg, res, etc).

TienJe

08-11-2007, 02:24

Hm, you sure you aren't overrating poison? Since poison can easily be negated with +max res (no, not potions, I don't like them either) and you also need full inventory of poison charms to make big impact which sacrifices other stats (like physical dmg, res, etc).
i don't really think so. i mean, zons as of right now use scs with fine prefixes. you could just changes all those to toxic prefixes and get 3700 poison damage without losing life/res/frw over the physical damage counterparts. swap forts for brambles, and i think zons start to accumulate too much damage, especially considering the -100% plr bonus from hell difficulty.

i think i should reiterate that i would welcome modest levels of poison, but removing the limitations completely would really just be a pain to deal with.

akumaxxyz

08-11-2007, 02:53

if you allow antidotes, whats the point of giving zons poison then? you would have made everything more complicated, and yet the status quo wouldn't have changed. it doesn't make any sense.

antidotes are there just for making psn last shorter and lowers dmg but it still goes through es so it is still doing damage, where else if you dont allow any at all es sor vs bowzon becomes a 1sided duel, zon would have to resort to massive/stack/absorb if you dont allow psn and we all know what the sor is going to do..

nex

08-11-2007, 03:08

you could just changes all those to toxic prefixes and get 3700 poison damage without losing life/res/frw over the physical damage counterparts. swap forts for brambles, and i think zons start to accumulate too much damage, especially considering the -100% plr bonus from hell difficulty.

3700 with bramble becomes 5550, that's 233 PvP damage (after pvp penalty and 75 res), 466 in Hell (with double poison lenght). Decent dmg, but your physical dmg just went straight to hell without +dmg charms and Fortitude. And when your opponent realizes he's dying to poison and he gets some +max res and plr gear that will become much lower number.

I'm not saying poison is completely useless, but I don't think it has that omfg-this-****-pwns factor you are claiming :smiley:

TienJe

08-11-2007, 03:50

3700 with bramble becomes 5550, that's 233 PvP damage (after pvp penalty and 75 res), 466 in Hell (with double poison lenght). Decent dmg, but your physical dmg just went straight to hell without +dmg charms and Fortitude. And when your opponent realizes he's dying to poison and he gets some +max res and plr gear that will become much lower number.

I'm not saying poison is completely useless, but I don't think it has that omfg-this-****-pwns factor you are claiming :smiley:
well, i think people that would fill their zons with poison probably wouldn't stop at just 100 damage scs. scs get up to 383, and even though you won't fill the entire inventory with them, its fairly easy to start to taking away 1000+ life per shot when you consider trangs + bramble. going with poison builds allow you to move points from dex back into vit, so you don't need as many life scs. if you use 17 383's and 20 100/5%'s, you'll rack up ~15k poison damage on top of a non-negligible physical damage, which ends up taking 1250 life per hit in hell with 75% res (you can probably bring most es sorcs to one life in one shot). to top it all off, the damage gets added to powerhouses like GA/MS. now it'll be the sorcs that are complaining. :laugh:

but yea, you're right for the most part. a few key mechanics dealing with poison changed with 1.10, and poison damage was nerfed significantly, so the limits need to be adjusted. i still will never agree to removing all limits to poison though.

thepandafactor

09-11-2007, 06:16

Anyway, if someone still has a problem with ES sorcs, I can show them the panda technique. *pandathegreat on US East SCL.

DayDream

09-11-2007, 06:27

I'll help the other people that do not know of the panda technique.
Panda technique - Playing afk to trick opponents into using their most weakest attacks, at that moment the panda strikes hard and fast.

Edit: True story! Panda once went afk outside in blood moor, a fire sorc switched to her fire wall and fell victim to Panda.

thepandafactor

09-11-2007, 06:35

Why do you have to lie about the panda technique. By the way, that game I really WAS afk. Get on, I need to practice my fire sorc vs you.

MysticDragon

09-11-2007, 06:42

http://youtube.com/watch?v=H0Kvm665dEQ

Having trouble? If you can do this, you'll have no problems.

Uncle_Mike

09-11-2007, 08:42

This is going off-topic, too off-topic :unimpressed:

thepandafactor

09-11-2007, 08:46

The panda technique is for real though, no lie. You will 100% any sorc basically. If you wanna learn you have to message me ofc :p

MysticDragon

09-11-2007, 09:16

This is going off-topic, too off-topic :unimpressed:

At first, it may seem unrelated, but it is the same basic idea. Marine micro is very helpful when learning how to play a Bowazon. The concept is the same. Dodging attacks while keeping up your attack. Marines die in 2 hits to Lurkers while Lurkers die in 20. This is the uphill battle when facing block casters. Marines instantly hit Lurkers while Lurkers have a bit of time before the attack hits making it possible to dodge. This is simulating the Guided Arrow vs Spear/Fireball attacks.