View Full Version : Assassin Venom... Counter?
TigerPrawn
05-11-2007, 08:02
Obviously PR and PDR help, but by how much? Does PDR make a bigger impact due to the short duration of Venom when applied into an attack? I'd love some info on the mechanics.
pdr(deaths glove)+antidote will mostly nullify them. most of the dmg is uber venom over a tiny frame, usualy not heavy physical.
inanefedaykin
05-11-2007, 08:50
PLR goes a damn long way, IIRC assasins don't use poison facets on their non prebuff gear, so you really don't need to look at PR (assuming you've got max anyway).
Pop on Deaths Set gloves and belt and you will be amazed, you don't need ravenfrost either, no rooms for pots but hey your dueling right? This is a longtime Fav for poison/cold and very LLD.
Death's Hand
Leather Gloves Defense: 2-3 (varies)
Required Level: 6
Durability: 12
Poison Length Reduced by 75%
Poison Resist 50%
30% Increased Attack Speed (2 Items)
Death's Guard
Sash Defense: 22 (Base Defense: 2)
Required Level: 6
Durability: 12
Cannot be Frozen
+20 Defense
All Resistances +15 (2 Items)
8% life Steal (2 Items)
Because of the short FR application of Venoms Damage PLR really needs to be high (75%+) to do much and solid PR and a antidote taken right as you get close will help as well. See the Sin Guides for mechanics but as I understand it:
At high levels, it applies damage every .4 seconds, which is 10 frames (there are 25 frames per second). Whirlwind hits every 4 frames, so venom does not deal full damage every time WW hits. %poison damage is currently bugged and is applied twice, similar to enchant + fire mastery. Once when you cast venom, and again when it is applied to the enemy. Trang’s glove’s 25% poison damage is actually 56.25% (1.25*1.25) more damage.
xxxkillerxxx
06-11-2007, 11:33
Obviously PR and PDR help, but by how much? Does PDR make a bigger impact due to the short duration of Venom when applied into an attack? I'd love some info on the mechanics.
PLR is nearly worthless unless they only hit you once (i.e. you're a pally), if you're getting shortwhirled/kicked it wont help enough to bother with. Imo PLR is a really dumb way to counter poison anyway, especially if you duel in hell (inherent -100 PLR). +max poison res works way better. Andys face and gul runes ruin venom.
mephiztophelez
06-11-2007, 12:22
you'd be surprised how effective PLR is against venom. keeping someone continuously poisoned with venom isn't easy.
xxxkillerxxx
06-11-2007, 12:56
you'd be surprised how effective PLR is against venom. keeping someone continuously poisoned with venom isn't easy.
No I wouldn't since I've tried it. Even if you assume only 1 hit over 0.8 seconds deaths hand is about equal to chugging some antidotes before the duel. Don't tell me that you never hit more than once in the 7 or so hitchecks you get when you whirl through someone, and that doesn't even take 0.8 seconds.
But sure, keep deaths hand, irathas collar and all that gear in stash and I'll stick to my andys face that actually helps vs non-venom based poison as well.
akumaxxyz
06-11-2007, 13:12
gul andy suprisingly any venom base sin will be a joke if you use it
75% PLR reduces poison to 25% of it's original damage.
An antidote potion gives you 85% res and therefore reduces poison to 60% of it's original damage (assuming you previously had 75% res)
75% PLR is clearly better. It doesn't matter how many times or how often you hit them.
Bobcox - why would you recommend wearing deaths sash along with the gloves?
mephiztophelez
06-11-2007, 16:20
75% PLR reduces poison to 25% of it's original damage.
An antidote potion gives you 85% res and therefore reduces poison to 60% of it's original damage (assuming you previously had 75% res)
75% PLR is clearly better. It doesn't matter how many times or how often you hit them.
not quite. your forgetting the hidden -100% plr in Hell penalty.
so in hell, 75%plr = 125% of "original/listed" venom damage.
Bobcox - why would you recommend wearing deaths sash along with the gloves?
because of the gosu PLR the set combo provides.
not quite. your forgetting the hidden -100% plr in Hell penalty.
Poison lasts twice as long in Hell? I always thought it just did double damage.
because of the gosu PLR the set combo provides.
The gloves provide it on their own.
xxxkillerxxx
06-11-2007, 20:59
75% PLR is clearly better. It doesn't matter how many times or how often you hit them.
Obviously PLR is completely pointless if you are constantly re-poisoned (plaguezons/chars with mass psn charms etc), and although wwsins rarely accomplish that they can still hit often enough to make PLR less attractive. Especially with the 0.8 second venom duration in hell.
Try dueling a 7k dmg bramblesin with whatever PLR you feel like having lying around in your stash then smack on gul andys face and see what works best. Granted, this is from a barb's point of view but max psn res is always more effective than PLR vs wwsins with high-level/prebuffed venom (and who wants to keep 10 slots of PLR gear in their stash 24/7 or be forced to switch out gloves/ammy/whatever instead of just changing helm or drink some antidotes hehe?)
inanefedaykin
06-11-2007, 23:23
Well, it's different for a barb cause of the whole melee thing. A number of other classes have ranged alternatives so using something like bramble is just dumb so the damage isn't nearly as high.
Obviously PLR is completely pointless if you are constantly re-poisoned (plaguezons/chars with mass psn charms etc), and although wwsins rarely accomplish that they can still hit often enough to make PLR less attractive. Especially with the 0.8 second venom duration in hell.
0.8 duration in Hell = 0.2 duration after PLR.
WW sin hits at 4 frames. How do you expect to keep them re-poisoned without their PLR reducing your damage of each hit by 75? Unless you hit 2 consecutive frames (this only happens 1 in 16 times vs. max block, and much less often vs decent defense chars) the PLR will work to its full effect.
Try dueling a 7k dmg bramblesin with whatever PLR you feel like having lying around in your stash then smack on gul andys face and see what works best.
The amount of damage your opponent has nothing to do with which is more effective. And a Bramble sin is a LOL build.
and who wants to keep 10 slots of PLR gear in their stash 24/7 or be forced to switch out gloves/ammy/whatever instead of just changing helm or drink some antidotes hehe?
Death's gloves take up the same 4 slots as Andy's face. I also assumed everyone knew that antidotes were BM.
because of the gosu PLR the set combo provides.
all but 15% of the resists is on the gloves, but come on people, it's level 6 Req and show me a better combo at that level, sure if your lvl 83+ slap on the Andy with gul instead but for level 9 to 82 and you have the glove on anyhow as at 50%PR and 75%PLR by itself its the best choice out there at those levels, look what the belt adds, the sash gives Freeze immune so you can swap out ravenfrost if you don't have, want, or can't use it yet, +30% IAS (not 20%) 30%! 15% more resist in the All Types flavor bringing PR to 65%! 8% Life Steal!
All for a level 6 req easy to get 2 Piece set combo?
deaths glove+sash is my favorite combo in the entire game , mostly because its such a leet twinking item. nothing like poping arrows at massive speeds killing everything with a friend's 1 pt chant fire sorc.
however there are so few sins and in fact ive never actualy SEEN even one true wwsin or even hybrid in all my time this ladder.
inanefedaykin
07-11-2007, 08:20
There's one or two on east.
xxxkillerxxx
07-11-2007, 16:41
0.8 duration in Hell = 0.2 duration after PLR.
Show me what gear you use to get that lol.
WW sin hits at 4 frames. How do you expect to keep them re-poisoned without their PLR reducing your damage of each hit by 75? Unless you hit 2 consecutive frames (this only happens 1 in 16 times vs. max block, and much less often vs decent defense chars) the PLR will work to its full effect.
4 frames = 0.16 seconds, if you whirl through someone you will more often than not reduce the efficiency of PLR. Period. Why even risk it in the first place when you don't have to? Logic? Please?
The amount of damage your opponent has nothing to do with which is more effective. And a Bramble sin is a LOL build.
All you non-believers will have a much easier time to see what is more effective in-game if the damage is noticeable in the first place. Bramble or not is irrelevant, are you happy if you pretend I wrote 6k+ dmg enigmasin instead?
Death's gloves take up the same 4 slots as Andy's face. I also assumed everyone knew that antidotes were BM.
And I assumed everyone knew that 60% reduction > a theoretical 37.5% reduction (see above why deaths gloves wont equal a 37.5% overall reduction in practice).
BM is arbitrary. There are different solutions such as crying or simply not precasting venom and people won't bother prebuffing antidotes lol.
Since you don't drink antidotes, do you keep both deaths hand+more PLR _and_ andys face on all your chars or do you just accept loss vs rabies/plaguezons/mass psn sc-based chars?
Instead of arguing when you don't even understand the -100% PLR penalty why don't you let a high damage wwsin whirl you and see what works best in reality, PLR or max res?
HappyAssassin
07-11-2007, 18:27
Killer is right guys, we messed around a lot with PLR and max res for sin vs. sin and max res is the most efficient defense agaisnt venom. We used Snakecord and Iratha ammy (I think) which has 75% PLR since no one wanted to take off their own trang gloves, and we also used a rare circlet with the mod. We also tested a 2/20/2 Gul sin circlet and Andy's face (just for different setups). The 85% Res (1 item switch) was about equal to the 125% PLR (which was a 2 item switch). The 175% PLR was really good (ammy + circlet + belt) but a little unfeasible, besides that wearing 3 negation items isn't any better than stacked absorb. If you really want to negate a venom sin then use both, but max res is pretty effective on its own.
akumaxxyz
07-11-2007, 23:08
i can never understand why thaw/antidote is bm. if prebuffing was bm people should just ban cta
Same reason healing pots are BM.
akumaxxyz
08-11-2007, 02:56
Same reason healing pots are BM.
healing pots heal, thaw/dotes dont, they just provide stack resist
the only people have problems with these are psn builds/cold sors. if someone really wanted to have max psn resist it is not hard either, antidote is just easier
if someone really wanted to have max psn resist it is not hard either, antidote is just easier
I guess that's the reason. With pots you don't have to sacrifice any part of your gear for res, just pop a potion. Probably the same reason why melee duelers consider enchant charges BM. And, yes, everyone accepts CtA, and that seems like contradiction. It's not like everything in d2 makes perfect sense :smiley:
akumaxxyz
08-11-2007, 05:08
I guess that's the reason. With pots you don't have to sacrifice any part of your gear for res, just pop a potion. Probably the same reason why melee duelers consider enchant charges BM. And, yes, everyone accepts CtA, and that seems like contradiction. It's not like everything in d2 makes perfect sense :smiley:
getting that 50% cold or psn resist wont criple your build. seriously if it was a 1v1 just use 5x 11 resist 20life sc how hard is it, like i said the result is the same. people are just whinning over because both of them gives max resist. the only way antidotes will be bm is when you have a full belt of it and chug one when ever you get poison
if it was a 1v1 just use 5x 11 resist 20life sc how hard is it
Not only do you need to sacrifice other charms to use these but they cost a fair amount as well.
Also, they don't give any +max res.
akumaxxyz
08-11-2007, 21:37
Not only do you need to sacrifice other charms to use these but they cost a fair amount as well.
Also, they don't give any +max res.
like i said if it was a serious 1v1 situation you wont cripple your overall effectiveness with just a few charm and 1 piece of max resist gear switch.
Killer is right guys, we messed around a lot with PLR and max res for sin vs. sin and max res is the most efficient defense agaisnt venom. We used Snakecord and Iratha ammy (I think) which has 75% PLR since no one wanted to take off their own trang gloves, and we also used a rare circlet with the mod. We also tested a 2/20/2 Gul sin circlet and Andy's face (just for different setups). The 85% Res (1 item switch) was about equal to the 125% PLR (which was a 2 item switch). The 175% PLR was really good (ammy + circlet + belt) but a little unfeasible, besides that wearing 3 negation items isn't any better than stacked absorb. If you really want to negate a venom sin then use both, but max res is pretty effective on its own.
HapAss - I respect your posts a lot, but I got to call a bad here.
Deaths set 2 piece is 3 less room left in stash and same belt slots for the Regen and Antidotes you carry about if BM, but still it is 65%PR 75%PLR two piece vs Snakecord/Iratha ammy at 55% PR and 125%PLR, so your point is more PLR is better than more PR?
One of us is confused.
Check below and my first post for the stats, Deaths set is better PR and other mods.
Most any Amulet (I like Maras but at low levels MOakC Unique is fine) makes up the 10% of resists + a lot more than most Gloves vs the 2 piece deaths gloves, and I will take can't be frozen and the 2 piece mods over your suggestion here.
So much 4 the 1st part of your post, I won't bother with your test results when you can't get the conditions you "Test" under correct. (I think)
That said.
1) low level req - Irathas and Snakecord are the only items you mention in the same level area, and deaths 2 piece wins easy IMHO
2) 100% correct on Resists win, Thats why I like a umed Uped GAngel and 90% resist all and low dex high level block best (Teleport? - thats on my switch weapon :-)
Snakecord
Light Belt
Defense: 14-15 (varies)(Base Defense: 3)
Required Level: 12
Durability: 14
8 Boxes
+20-30% Enhanced Defense (varies)
+10 Defense
Replenish Life +5
Poison Resist +25%
Poison Length Reduced By 50%
+12 Poison Damage Over 3 Seconds
Iratha's Collar
Amulet
Required Level: 15
Poison Length Reduced by 75%
Poison Resist +30%
All Resistances +15 (2 Items) - Note - you don't get this bonus with this combo 1 item only! You DO get the 2 items bonuses listed with the deaths set in my first post this thread.
xxxkillerxxx
09-11-2007, 12:30
Not only do you need to sacrifice other charms to use these but they cost a fair amount as well.
Also, they don't give any +max res.
I hope you never use prebuf on your assa cause that would give you an unfair advantage without sacrificing anything. Utter BM.
Have you done any testing on the PLR penalty yet? Have you compared gul andys vs Deaths+xxxx PLR items vs high dmg wwsin? Have you figured out what you would use to reduce poison length by 75%? Do all your chars still lose 20-0 vs rabies/plaguezons/mass psn sc-chars?
Relative Poison Damage (in hell):
Data (http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2882/poisondamagedatavm8.png)
Chart (http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/6744/poisondamagechartru0.png)
Starting at 75% poison res and 0% PLR, 10% added max res is equivalent to 80% PLR. So, Andy's helm or 2x Gul is approximately equal to an Iratha's Collar. Things start getting a little bit more complicated when you compound the two effects.
PLR should be going to 200%, but I was lazy and I didn't think anyone cared enough. You can extrapolate the data out to those levels if you need to, as if you keep the PR constant, the effects of PLR will be linear.
Relative Poison Damage (in hell):
Data (http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2882/poisondamagedatavm8.png)
Chart (http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/6744/poisondamagechartru0.png)
Starting at 75% poison res and 0% PLR, 10% added max res is equivalent to 80% PLR. So, Andy's helm or 2x Gul is approximately equal to an Iratha's Collar. Things start getting a little bit more complicated when you compound the two effects.
PLR should be going to 200%, but I was lazy and I didn't think anyone cared enough. You can extrapolate the data out to those levels if you need to, as if you keep the PR constant, the effects of PLR will be linear.
Well I admit I was wrong about PLR being better than max res. I haven't dueled in Hell for years so I wasn't familiar with how the double duration of poison worked. I assumed that while the poison lasted twice as long, 75% PLR would still reduce it to 25% of its original damage.
At least I don't BM with antidotes though. Of course prebuffing is BM, why do you think everyone wants +3 venom on their Fury/Chaos? And prebuffing with pots is even worse.
like i said if it was a serious 1v1 situation you wont cripple your overall effectiveness with just a few charm and 1 piece of max resist gear switch.
Then use charms and a piece of max res rather than BMing with pots.
Well I admit I was wrong about PLR being better than max res. I haven't dueled in Hell for years so I wasn't familiar with how the double duration of poison worked. I assumed that while the poison lasted twice as long, 75% PLR would still reduce it to 25% of its original damage.
well, i'm not saying you're wrong. in terms of marginal effectiveness of PR vs PLR, PR is better, but thats not the only consideration. 80% PLR may only be as good as 10% PR, but in terms of how easy it is to get those mods on items, they're about equal.
however, if you duel in hell without the -100% PLR, then PLR is definitely better, because 75% PLR will lower the poison damage to 25% of what it used to, just like you said. Deaths gloves in that case would be equal to increasing your max poison res by ~18%, which is pretty hard to do in terms of items.
akumaxxyz
10-11-2007, 08:26
Then use charms and a piece of max res rather than BMing with pots.
the result is the same, its absurd if you call that bming.
xxxkillerxxx
10-11-2007, 11:33
At least I don't BM with antidotes though. Of course prebuffing is BM, why do you think everyone wants +3 venom on their Fury/Chaos? And prebuffing with pots is even worse.
Understand that none of it is "BM" on my realm. It's not like people need to reduce non-prebuffed venom on NM anyway hehe :)
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