View Full Version : Which is more deadly...
come back zinc
24-10-2007, 20:55
OK. I avoided getting into this discussion the other night cause I wasn't sure. Which is more common in NM: death by Undead Dolls or death by FEs?
Its obviously a moot point; both can and will kill you if you're not careful. Which do you feel takes more lives?
MasterMynd
24-10-2007, 21:10
For me personally: Dolls 1, FE 0
Note: The doll death was not from popping. It was from a Fanat Doll pack that I didn't have enough FHR to get away from. And it was in Hell, not NM.
So reallly it's: Dolls 0, FE 0
zodwizard
24-10-2007, 21:17
I lost my highest level HCL character, an 89th level necro, to Nightmare dolls in the WSK.. never lost any to FE,so Dolls FTW.
The average normal doll isnt a problem for a full life build that isnt trying to save stat points, a "vita build" unless maybe for a Necro, Sorc without ES/TK or maybe a Druid not in Form or without its Oak up. However the Champs and Bosses may cause death from any build.
The basic problem with Dolls in NM and even in Hell, is they die so easily, your merc usually 1-2 shots them with even only reasonable weapons, and you yourself with a multi-hitting attack like WW or Zeal or AOE skills can easily kill several of them at once. The Bosses/Champs are just worse, alot worse, it only takes one of these guys. Nothing really worrys me on my Trapper like Dolls do especially with the Master up, she can at any time toss down a DS and kill a bunch of them.
In the same way, the "average" NM FE wont kill people its the ones with the exra mods like FE/LE and FE/CE or toss in AMP, or be at low life. With the same exceptions as above except you might add in some other builds that may tend to be lower life. A Java that was built well is probably fine vs the average FE, the Trapper is also if its a 45/45 or 55/55 with alot of Vita.....keep in mind "probably". Now any "large life" FE is also a problem like those Tree dudes liek the Boss at the end of Flayer, the Council, Baals Minions, anything extra strong or Stone Skin and the FE/LE and FE/CE or LE/FE, and never under estimate a CE monster as they dont do what an FE can but if you are near one at death with low life they can kill ya also. A good one many dont think about is the Witch Doctor, and many also forget there are dolls in other areas in Act 3 like the Dungeons to get the quest pieces as many people skip that alot.
With all of that said about FE's and Dolls it is just SIMPLY THE BEST PRACTICE to treat all of them as potential death and always be aware. Things in this game move fast. What "was" jsut a couple dolls or a low life FE can turn into 10+ dolls and (2) FEs the second one being a killer if you dont pay attention and your merc might kill him while you are messin with the other.
Almost all NM FE's and Normal Dolls in all 3 levels have the chance to put you in a "1 more hit = death" situation. Even if they can kill you they can set you up for the next hit that will. So when you take that into consideration I suggest to treat them all as potential death.
Running from Dolls is more dangerous than "smartly" killing them.......FYI, if you are on a Trapper be sure to recast traps so you dont have a DS in range when you move thru dead bodies.
FE for me as I run/TP from the dolls instead.
MoUsE_WiZ
25-10-2007, 09:48
Dolls - 1.
My only Doll death, hell included, was my first character of 1.10, a blizzer doing NM mephs... landed in a pack of em, merc started popping em, gg.
FE - 10.
Actually I'm just going with that because it's a nice round number. The point is, I've killed piles of javazons, a hammerdin, and maybe some other stuff that I'm forgetting about, on NM FEs. Well, one of the javazons was a hell FE. But whatever. The hammerdin was HCCL, if that makes a difference in the scoring. The thing with FEs and Javazons is that an FELE takes for-freaking-ever to kill with a bad merc and Lightning Fury... charged strike makes it go sooooooo much quicker. Insta-deeds mean nothing when confronted with the prospect of taking 30 seconds to kill one stupid monster.
TheDarkSide
25-10-2007, 13:50
FE for the Win !!!
I remember a while back I was attempting to kill the NM Ancients . I cant remember what class I was but HpSauce was playing his high level Amazon like 80'ish . Needless to say we popped the seal and a FE Ancients popped and killed us both ...
:shocked:
Definitely FE, haven't been offed by dolls in ages, but this season I managed to lose two chars to NM FE's. An IK Barb being lvled with nothing but safety gear on and a Pure Vite (at the time) Hammerdin - though they were both ~75 at the time of death.
Actually those were both technically to the FELE burst bug :(
-Tai
MasterMynd
25-10-2007, 17:25
...FELE burst bug...
Is that where the full FE death damage is added to every bolt?
Definitely FE, haven't been offed by dolls in ages
Same here
Actually those were both technically to the FELE burst bug
Same :grin:
Is that where the full FE death damage is added to every bolt?
Yeah...it's evil...nearly lost a Sorc not so long ago while MF-ing NM Meph and thought i'd hit Bremm while i was there...
Dolls so far for me. Just a quick question though. What type of damage is the doll explosion? Physical, Fire? With a necro, I try to keep my bone armor up since it will prevent a 1-hit physical kill, so will this prevent a 1-shot from a doll explosion?
I want to do NM Meph runs now to try to get gear, but those dolls scare me again. I was trying to run through with no merc/minions so no popping dolls, but I just could not find the stairs down before getting overwhelmed and 'Save and Exiting'. I guess I should just keep my teleport staff equipped and burn charges on them. I forget how much my per charge price is.
tigercan
25-10-2007, 19:18
FE Dolls are the worst :D
I've yet to die to doll explosions, but a buddy I MP with lost several in games we were in.
I have died to one of those FE/LE glitched bolts though.
come back zinc
25-10-2007, 19:26
Dolls so far for me. Just a quick question though. What type of damage is the doll explosion? Physical, Fire? With a necro, I try to keep my bone armor up since it will prevent a 1-hit physical kill, so will this prevent a 1-shot from a doll explosion?
I want to do NM Meph runs now to try to get gear, but those dolls scare me again. I was trying to run through with no merc/minions so no popping dolls, but I just could not find the stairs down before getting overwhelmed and 'Save and Exiting'. I guess I should just keep my teleport staff equipped and burn charges on them. I forget how much my per charge price is.
The FE explosion does 1/2 fire 1/2 physical damage. I think something in the range of the monster's total life. So a 4000 hp monster deals a lot of damage. I've got a teleport amulet if you'd like - 22 charges. I don't need it, I like to travel on foot.
Sceadu, we'll run NM tonight if you're around. I'll even set it up for quest drops so we can take full advantage.
jiansonz
25-10-2007, 19:42
Just a quick question though. What type of damage is the doll explosion? Physical, Fire?
As far as I know, itīs pure physical damage.
AgentMarth
25-10-2007, 19:48
Just a quick question though. What type of damage is the doll explosion? Physical, Fire? With a necro, I try to keep my bone armor up since it will prevent a 1-hit physical kill, so will this prevent a 1-shot from a doll explosion?
Dolls are 100% physical. Which is also why you can block there death explosions. Decrp, Weaken, BattleCry all help to lower the damage put out from it. Hence why I try to Decrp when I can just in case the pop close enough to me.
Also, i'm not sure about Bone Armor being a 1 hit kill stopper. I lost a 89 Necro to a champion pack of dolls once. They ran so fast they desynced and I didn't know it, one died, i started the CE chain, they second CE maybe, killed a champion(possibly possessed) doll right next to me, deeds.
~~~
I'd have to lean towards FE. Dolls hurt, but if you have decent life you can survive it. It does ~500 damage in hell, with a 5% chance to roll critical for double. DR% helps alot, and it can get to a point where you can tank them with the proper gear and char.
FE on the other hand, has cost me more chars. I can think of 2 this season. Druid, NM FE Hephisto. Sorc, NM FELE Mana burn Grand Vizier. There may be more but thats all I can think of. Both of those characters were taking everything thrown at them and laughing, but the FE got them in the blink of an eye.
The FE explosion does 1/2 fire 1/2 physical damage. I think something in the range of the monster's total life. So a 4000 hp monster deals a lot of damage. I've got a teleport amulet if you'd like - 22 charges. I don't need it, I like to travel on foot.
Sceadu, we'll run NM tonight if you're around. I'll even set it up for quest drops so we can take full advantage.
That sounds great. I finished up my Hellforge (got a PUL) and Izzy quests with no problems last night after you left. Even went and dropped Shrenk, the lag caused by his death scared me since I saw a bunch of spears flying towards me.
I did do 1 Meph run, going through the Durance slowly so as to stay away from popping dolls, didn't get any good drops, but I wasn't expecting to with just that 1 run. Right now my mf runs until I get a few more levels and a better blocking shield are Andy and Countess.
Hp_Sauce
25-10-2007, 22:01
FE for the Win !!!
I remember a while back I was attempting to kill the NM Ancients . I cant remember what class I was but HpSauce was playing his high level Amazon like 80'ish . Needless to say we popped the seal and a FE Ancients popped and killed us both ...
:shocked:
I think it was the Hell Ancients, I was helping with my Smiter (I know because my high level zon never died, she just expired), and you were playing with your MA Assassin. Either way it was pretty impressive how we both ended up splattered. Haha! we did so many things wrong that fight, too lazy to bring BO barb, too lazy to check mods "**** it, they can't be that hard, well just kill them.... ****!" You rebuilt your MA Assassin after that, I never bothered to rebuild my Smiter. ahh the good old days! I miss gaming with you man!
Anyway, I've lost 2 (maybe 3) characters to FE, but only 1 to dolls, so I guess that makes FE more dangerous for me. I can't even count the times I've had an NDE from FE. Just yesterday I nearly lost my Singer barb twice in NM to the FELE radius hitting whatever the hell you call it... it hurt, that's all I know.
-hps
MoUsE_WiZ
26-10-2007, 01:59
I believe that Bone Armour hasn't prevented 1 hit kos since the release of 1.10. Well, a high level BA could do it just by absorbing the amount of damage needed to keep you alive, but not in the same way damage didn't overflow in 1.09 and earlier making lvl 1 BA godly.
I could be wrong though.
I'm proud to say I've never died to either. I play absurdly cautiously though...
My method of going through the Durance is basically this:
-Walk two steps forward, position the mouse pointer behind me
-If I hear monster sounds (especially therasping-doll-breath) run back and let my merc tank them
-If I don't hear or see anything, move my mouse forward again, proceed two more steps
-Clear every outside room, then every room next to it to have a 1-room buffer
-Proceed to the next outside room
(With this clearing method, you always have an escape route and never get ambushed)
-Have full health at all times. Sometimes I run out of healing potions when Night Lords are spamming me with annoying meteors, but I go back to town and refill my potions.
It takes forever to pick my way through the Durance this way. If I have spotted 3 non-doll enemies (meaning there are no dolls on the level), then I will go faster. Though it takes forever, I get to breath a huge sigh of relief whenever I do get through the ordeal :D
Fire Enchanted monsters have never been as scary for me. I just back off automatically as they are about to die. I also dodge frost novas that way. It's pretty standard procedure; I hardly get slowed down at all.
I diligently avoid LEFE bolts because I've heard about the glitch. However, I've been brushed by a few, and I didn't take any more damage than a normal bolt. Am I just getting lucky and avoiding the glitch or what?
Hp_Sauce
26-10-2007, 09:04
I diligently avoid LEFE bolts because I've heard about the glitch. However, I've been brushed by a few, and I didn't take any more damage than a normal bolt. Am I just getting lucky and avoiding the glitch or what?
No, you're not getting lucky, you have to stand close. I'm not even sure if LE is required. Someone will come and explain it properly I hope, but basically sometimes FE monsters will pulse an invisible damage in a small radius around them. It hurts a bunch, and if you have a character that has to stand close and deals damage quickly (zeal pally, or 105 FCR Singer barb), your life bulb goes down really fast like.
My apologies for any inaccuracies in the above post.
-hps
jiansonz
26-10-2007, 10:08
Fire Enchanted monsters have never been as scary for me. I just back off automatically as they are about to die. I also dodge frost novas that way. It's pretty standard procedure; I hardly get slowed down at all.
Yes, I have the same experiences. I play untwinked, and at least somewhat off-the-wall builds. This means my characters are rather slow killers, and I get some clear warning signs that 'here is an FE boss that is about to die!'. I avoid CE novas where I can, but sometimes there is too little space to work with. I usually drink a thawing potion before I am taking that damage.
On my zon, with 75% fire resist and a dwarf, I pop packs of might dolls in Throne in 5-8ppl games all the time, barely taking any damage. Maybe it's the d/a/e, but I've never had a problem with dolls on any of my chars once I get 75% fire + dwarf.
come back zinc
26-10-2007, 15:50
FELE. IIRC you have to send the monster into his Hit Recovery animation. When you do so, the FE death damage is dealt in every LE bolt that hits you inside the FE explosion radius. The same applies to CELE or CEFELE.
That's my best stab at it.
AgentMarth
26-10-2007, 19:30
That sounds about right with the hit recovery, otherwise my Orber woulda died by now. But seeing as how Orb is several small hits fast, it wont do that.
I know for a fact a stun attack will set off the FE, due to my Singer going too 1/4 his ~3.5K life fast one time vs a FELE Lister. That was scary.
Where is RTB or Orphan when you need them...
Where is RTB or Orphan when you need them...
Neither of the frequent this area much if at all. Think I have seen RTB here once.
xXxfunbobxXx
26-10-2007, 23:42
well actually i saw the worth monster today
undead doll fire light enchant woo scary let heathaloaf do the work for me
FELE. IIRC you have to send the monster into his Hit Recovery animation. When you do so, the FE death damage is dealt in every LE bolt that hits you inside the FE explosion radius. The same applies to CELE or CEFELE.
That's my best stab at it.
That's basically correct from my experiences, I've gotten rocked by Warcrying NM Bartuc who was FELE so the stun animation is the only thing I can assume it is.
You must be within the FE radius around the monster, and it releases an invisible death explosion with each hit (not sure if its possible to get hit by multiples if hit by stacked bolts or if its just a radius blast instead of tied to the bolts - hoping not possible to get stacked FE dmg or MSLEFE's would be as scary as they used to be for melee chars :()
Cheers
-Tai
theShockeR
27-10-2007, 21:07
I have only had 2 characters die so far (granted i'm still pretty new)
My zon to a doll explosion and my level 4 sorc to a LE...I don't cout the level 4 for anything because I was just wasn't paying attention in a trist run (stupid world series :-) )
What kind of damage is stygian doll explosion damage anyway? Is that fire damage or magical?
AgentMarth
27-10-2007, 21:56
What kind of damage is stygian doll explosion damage anyway? Is that fire damage or magical?
It was just said a page back
Dolls are 100% physical. Which is also why you can block there death explosions. Decrp, Weaken, BattleCry all help to lower the damage put out from it. Hence why I try to Decrp when I can just in case the pop close enough to me.
But I might as well add, that on the flip side, stuff like Amp makes them hurt worst. Not sure about how Fana/Might effect it.
Regicide
05-11-2007, 11:38
FELE. IIRC you have to send the monster into his Hit Recovery animation. When you do so, the FE death damage is dealt in every LE bolt that hits you inside the FE explosion radius. The same applies to CELE or CEFELE.
That's my best stab at it.
Yep. I had this happen while running NM Baals with my enigma hammerdin. Had a circle of hammers waiting for wave 3, then bam, Bartuc spawns and I get hit with 1 bolt that takes me down to 10% life. Luckily I juv'd and ran backwards. Bartuc only took 1 hit to kill, since it was Nightmare. If he had managed to land another bolt on me, that would have been the end :(
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