View Full Version : Thorns damage in PVP
I think I read that thorns damage is divided by 10 in pvp. I've also read that this isn't very good for pvp, but I don't understand why.
For example: Let's say someone hit my bear (who will take full damage, no pvp penalty for minions I believe) for 3K damage, and he has a level 35 thorns aura on him (bramble-20, and edge 15). That's about 1600% damage return.
So he hits the bear for 3k, then I believe summons only do 1/2 damage, so he'll be reflecting back 1500 damage (prethorns). Now the thorns will return 1500x16/10, right? Which works out to be 2400 pvp damage, or 1200 if the player has 50% damage reduction.
Seems pretty good to me, or am I wrong in my calculations?
Also I have another question. If the Bear had spirit of barbs aura in addition to the level 35 thorns aura, would it increase the TOTAL damage return, and if so, by how much?
pvp reduction is ~1/6. if your bear takes 3000 damage and thorns reflects 1600% damage, thats 3000x16=48000 damage back to the opponent. because the opponent is a player, the damage gets divided by 6, meaning 8000 damage, which then gets divided by 2 for the minion reduction (i think), meaning 4000 damage. that of course then goes through the opponents DR%, which assuming 50%, means 2000 life taken away.
my summon druid uses the bramble + edge combo as well, and can very readily kill bvcs without proper DR in 1 whirl, and smiters in 2-3 smites. spirit of thorns will add to the % damage returned from thorns linearly. however, i suggest keeping oak sage, as your bear will end up being able to take more hits, i.e. will be able to return more damage in the end.
Thanks for the response, but could you please explaine how sob would increase the return damage in the above example? Thanks.
its like this: 1600% thorns + x% sob = total damage reflected
Killafornia
20-10-2007, 13:03
Thanks for the reply, but I posted a few days ago and someone told me that thorns didn't stack with sob. So who is right?
that person said the same thing we are saying. SOB + thorns won't combine into one aura, though the damages are additive. the only time it would make a difference is if you have 4+ auras, and you begin to cycle through (you can only have 3 active auras at once iirc).
Thanks for your reply, butonly 3 auras at once?
I was hoping to have on my bear the following: Might and Concentration from merc, Bramble Thorns + Edge Thorns (on switch) + SOB Thorns (when using Edge), Heart of Wolverine with Faith Fataticism when not using the SOB/Edge combo.
Would I be limited in some way by using the above aura stacks?
Also, I'm hoping the total PVP damage return would be: 21 (bramble), 15 (edge), 45 (SOB), for a total of 1650 (bram, edge) + 930 (SOB)= 2580 Total damage return. Which would probably kill any physical melee attacker in one hit in PVP.
Does this sound right?
Finally, the bear I'm building will have a 32K attack rating and do about 18K damage at 9 frames/attack, which means he'll be doing 9K PVP damage right?
Thanks
Thanks for your reply, butonly 3 auras at once?
I was hoping to have on my bear the following: Might and Concentration from merc, Bramble Thorns + Edge Thorns (on switch) + SOB Thorns (when using Edge), Heart of Wolverine with Faith Fataticism when not using the SOB/Edge combo.
Would I be limited in some way by using the above aura stacks?
Also, I'm hoping the total PVP damage return would be: 21 (bramble), 15 (edge), 45 (SOB), for a total of 1650 (bram, edge) + 930 (SOB)= 2580 Total damage return. Which would probably kill any physical melee attacker in one hit in PVP.
Does this sound right?
Finally, the bear I'm building will have a 32K attack rating and do about 18K damage at 9 frames/attack, which means he'll be doing 9K PVP damage right?
Thanks
correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that:
there is a 16% (~1/6) damage penalty for any damage dealt to a player
there is a 50% (1/2) damage penalty for any damage dealt to a player's summon
that means that your bear, which does 18k damage, would only deal 1/6 of its damage to the player, meaning 3k pvp damage. however, i believe you are doing some of the math incorrectly, as 18k damage on a bear is unreachable. if you look at the summon bear skill, you'll see that it already has ~+450% damage. the damage you gain from fana/conc/might are added to that percentage and not multiplied, and the damage that your bear deals already includes the +450% damage in it.
regarding the 3 aura rule, my friend just told me that the limit was 6. i'm not really sure whether the auras from druid spirits count towards that limit either.
but for one limit, you can't have HoW and SoB on at the same time. you can only have one spirit. i also think you'll do much better if you use oak instead, as your bear will die very quickly and not survive enough punishment to return enough damage to kill the attacker.
Jaquiezz
21-10-2007, 02:26
The PvP reduction on thorns and damage returned is 1/10, not 1/6. Its on the AS...
A further 1/2 damage penalty is taken by minions and hirelings, so a bear would return 1/20 of 18k damage times the damage return %.
The PvP reduction on thorns and damage returned is 1/10, not 1/6. Its on the AS...
A further 1/2 damage penalty is taken by minions and hirelings, so a bear would return 1/20 of 18k damage times the damage return %.
well, the 18K damage is the theoretical damage the bear does, not what it gets hit by, so it would still get reduced by 1/6.
but thanks for the 1/10 clarification. i didn't know about that.
p.s. does anyone know if the iron golem's thorns aura stacks with thorns from bramble/edge?
I appreciate all the responses, but there seems to be a lot of confusion when it comes to all this as I am getting different answers whether it be from posting here, doing searches, or whatever.
For example the other day I received this response regarding minion pvp damage which the poster said was from the arreat summit:
Directly quoted from Arreat Summit:
When attacking other players, all damage of attacks and spells is 17% or 1/6.
Some spells are special cased, such as Paladin Thorns, which will only do 1/10th the damage against other players. The duration of poison and cold are not affected unless the player has equipment that relates to those elemental attacks.
Valkyries, Hirelings, Skeletons, and Golems will attack other players when Hostile. Minion's damage will be cut in half when attacking other players. How come bears/wolves aren't listed? Is their damage somehow different in pvp?
Iron Maiden has an additional 1/4 damage penalty
The casting of 'absentee' skills such as the Sorceress' Meteor, Firewall, Blaze, Hydra; the Assassin's Sentries; the Druid's Volcano; etc. are terminated when the player enters town. This prevents declaring Hostility and doing immediate damage to the unsuspecting.
There is a 10-second delay between declaring Hostility and using a Waypoint or Town Portal to leave town.
The attribute "Hit Slows Target" is limited to no more than 50% slowing when used in PvP.
So can someone please tell me how much my bear will do in PVP damage if he does 18K? And how much thorns PVP damage will be returned based upon the above gear (bramble, edge, SOB) if say the attacker hits my bear for 3K damage?
Thank you
omgwtfbbqpwned
21-10-2007, 03:11
Bears and Wolves deal 1/2 damage, but take full damage.
I have no idea how much damage is returned as I am unsure of how it is calculated, but as long as your opponent isn't attacking your own hero, the return damage should be better.
Thanks, so I'll be doing 9K pvp damage assuming no DR (4.5K with 50% DR)?
Wow, that's one heck of a wallop. Beware of my bear! Actually his AR can go to over 50K using a blessed aim merc, and only loses about 3k damage. If I enchant him it's 60K AR. In other words, he's going to hit you if you get too close :laugh:
Now if someone could just tell me how much PVP damage would be returned if someone smacked him with say 3K physical melee damage.... hmmm anyone? Thanks
Also could someone verify that the damage return in pvp from bramble, edge, AND SOB is greater than just using bramble and edge? I've heard they stack and don't stack. Who knows for certain? Thanks again!
Thanks, so I'll be doing 9K pvp damage assuming no DR (4.5K with 50% DR)?
Wow, that's one heck of a wallop. Beware of my bear! Actually his AR can go to over 50K using a blessed aim merc, and only loses about 3k damage. If I enchant him it's 60K AR. In other words, he's going to hit you if you get too close :laugh:
Now if someone could just tell me how much PVP damage would be returned if someone smacked him with say 3K physical melee damage.... hmmm anyone? Thanks
well, once again, i doubt you will be doing 18k damage on your bear. the damage listed on the skill doesn't get multiplied by the %Damage; its already included. any other sources of %ed (like from auras) will multiply by the base damage, not the total damage your bear is listed as doing.
Yeah he does, and actually will do more damage because the calculator only gives up to a level 40 HOW. Actual level will be a little higher: Faith, bramble, spider belt, 2Xsoj, 3 summon ammy, rare summon helm with grizzly, anni, torch, skillers, battle command. Act2 Merc wears pride for concentration.
And actually a blessed aim merc might be best, as the bear's attack rating gets to 56K (actually more because HOW will be higher), and you only lose a couple of thousand damage.
If you enchant him with this set-up his AR is 70K!!
Check out this calc
http://tph.tuwien.ac.at/~gottwald/druid_pet_calculator.html
i don't know if its a good idea to use HoW and SoB over oak. the bear won't live long enough to hit anyone if it doesn't have a good amount of life. i guess its personal preference.
i also get the feeling that the calc isn't dealing with the oak's life correctly. the bear lives MUCH longer with oak than what the calc's hp implies. i get the feeling that the +life% from dire is multiplicative with the oak's %life, instead of additive like the calc has it.
not 100% sure though.
Yah, I thought the same thing, but I checked the calculator and when we max Oak over HOW the bear only gains like 1400 life, and we can always recast him :)
Without HOW the damage and especially the AR suffers too much imo.
Oh and I think I read that iron golem's aura doesn't stack with any other aura. Thanks
Yah, I thought the same thing, but I checked the calculator and when we max Oak over HOW the bear only gains like 1400 life, and we can always recast him :)
Without HOW the damage and especially the AR suffers too much imo.
Oh and I think I read that iron golem's aura doesn't stack with any other aura. Thanks
yea, for some reason, oak makes the bear feel MUCH stronger. its almost like the bear's life gets tripled. there might be something weird with the calc.
i like the blessed aim merc idea, though i think anything with large defense will probably be best dealt with by thorns :azn:.
EDIT: plus, the oak is wonderful when you go pubbing with friends. everyone ends up with like 10k life :shocked:.
Yeah, the blessed aim merc makes sense for pvp purposes. Indeed if I ever get around to making a necro summon pvp'er, I would DEFINITELY use a blessed aim merc over a might merc!
This calculator http://tph.tuwien.ac.at/~gottwald/necro_pet_calculator.html
shows that while level 50 skeletons lose about 25% damage (they do 2k instead of 2.5k) using a blessed aim merc, they TRIPLE their attack rating (from 10k to 30k! and over 40K with enchant!!).
At 10K Ar the skeletons/revies will have trouble imo hitting anything but the lowest defence pvp chars (mages and such).
k i just had my friend test with me.
it takes 2 bone spears to kill the bear without oak, and 7 when oak is casted. thats definitely not just 1400 life more. :shocked:
Looks like time for someone to get a buddy and do some testing, should be easy to tell if you hit the bear with a weapon that has a small min to max dam weapon and would give a definitive answer.
well, bone spear already has a very small range of damage. going from 2 to 7 hits was pretty conclusive to me.
well, bone spear already has a very small range of damage. going from 2 to 7 hits was pretty conclusive to me.
I concur with TienJe's statement the amount your bear will get from Oak is alot more than listed. Oak > HoW all the way
well, bone spear already has a very small range of damage. going from 2 to 7 hits was pretty conclusive to me.
LOL Me too!
I posted about the time you did (your test results one prior to the quote above lists within 2 minutes of each other) and did not see your post up yet when I started writing mine, Guess I'm a slow typer.
I don't think you could test the thorns with bone spear though and I meant that as well.
Always liked Oak better anyway in 1.09 it seemed extra strong at high levels and I guess I got in a habit with it.
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