HF rushing.... The ultimate cheese?

[ManTurkey]

Hi guys sorry to bring this up i know it has been brought up alot but i just wanted to talk about hellforge rushing ;)

Why is this allowed? People are so concerned about "taint" etc but this clearly immoral practice is allowed?

First i wish to make the difference between HF rushing and HF running.

HF running: You twink up a char and finish the game - fair enough. Slightly cheesy, but alot of effort goes into this and really its no different from any other char collecting a hellforge.

HF rushing: You MP with another, far higher lvl char which basically kills all the end bosses thus finishing the game on norm/nm very fast and allowing for uberfast HF drops. In some cases i have heard of people doing this with 7 chars at once as to get 7 HF drops at the same time.

So what are the problems with it?
Well as you all know runes are the only real form of hard, high level currency in d2 and as any of you who play extensively know they are very very hard to come by. You could be playing for months and months and not find even an um or pul rune. So, for people who find this cheesy, like myself, it is almost impossible to compete with hellforge runners for things such as trading. Whats more, it de-values runes because they become more common.

Think it over guys and leave opinions please try to avoid flaming

[thepandafactor]

It's better than duping, and the only way a lot of legit players can keep up with nonlegit ones.

[Joosh]

I agree that HF rushing is cheesy and de-values runes a lot, also ruins the economy somewhat, but there is not much to be done about it as far as I can see short of banning HF rushed runes.

However HF rushed runes are generally valued at less than self-found runes.

Also I think this should have been posted in the SP community forum rather than the trading forum..

Joosh

[sirpoopsalot]

Joosh, I agree with your points and opinions, but...

Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that as a trading community, almost all of us are already tainted by HF-rushed runes (on some level). Just like we're also 99.9+% tainted by hot-muled Gheeds, use of the -seed command, HC->SC transfers (and vice versa :cry:), and whatever "questionable" tactic you care to imagine. Banning HF-rushed runes only limits the economy in some ways (not that I'd be against it), but it won't ensure a return to legitimacy by any stretch of the imagination.

Some folks were doing these "questionable" tactics before they were considered "questionable" - so not all of them have always declared their activities, and since it wasn't against the rules, they kept it up... then they traded, then that person traded with someone else, then that person had a giveaway, etc. until the whole community is affected in some small (or large) way. Without a community-wide restart, we're stuck with it (and we all know that a restart ain't going to happen).

However, despite our certainly tainted status, I'm not saying I disagree with the community policy of "what you do is your own business, but if you want to interact, do so with honesty." But, I strongly suspect we're already 'too far gone', and the only way to ensure the legitimacy of our items is a complete restart with 100% self-found items.

... (waiting for Shags to show up and extoll the virtues and 100% certainty of self-found play :wink3:)


However HF rushed runes are generally valued at less than self-found runes.


Only by a modicum though - for example, would you take a HF-rushed Pul over a non-HF-rushed Lem? I probably would, even though I feel rushing is 98% cheese and 2% practical.

[ManTurkey]

But surely just saying that from this point forward no runes are allowed to be hellforge rushed, while accepting that in the past some runes have been hellforge rushed and we will have to live with that is better?

[sirpoopsalot]

But surely just saying that from this point forward no runes are allowed to be hellforge rushed...

I actually agree with this opinion, but: good luck getting a concensus, or any action, on that. And just to be clear, I'm not being sarcastic or trying to semi-flame - my opinion is that it simply won't happen - ever.

BTW, such a decision would surely p***off some people - several of whom have helped make this community the great thing it is (and who has the authority to make that decision? Catt & Hrus? I doubt they feel that strongly or want to 'rock the boat' that badly).

[maxicek]

But surely just saying that from this point forward no runes are allowed to be hellforge rushed, while accepting that in the past some runes have been hellforge rushed and we will have to live with that is better?

How will you know?

The biggest problem, at a practical level, is the two tier economy it creates:
- Those who HF rush.
- Those who can't / aren't prepared to HF rush.

If a HF rusher is bidding for the same item (in runes) against a non HF rusher, the rusher is always going to win. So it is not just runes they become rich in, but all the nice skillers and charms too.

On the subject of taint, how about 'LK' runes? Sure most may be legit, but I bet there are a few that aren't.
Once upon a time new people used to turn up at the forum, produce a Ber and claim they cubed it from 2K countess runs. Then get banned shortly after.
Now all they have to do is claim they found it in a chest with some vambraces.

Certainly HF rushing is quite high up on the mozarella scale.

[ManTurkey]

If a HF rusher is bidding for the same item (in runes) against a non HF rusher, the rusher is always going to win. So it is not just runes they become rich in, but all the nice skillers and charms too.


Thats my point, its very unfair.

How we get the opinions of a few HF rushers in here xD

[Nazdakka]

Thats my point, its very unfair.

How we get the opinions of a few HF rushers in here xD

I would argue that it's no more bad than the other mods, techniques and bug exploits that are commonly used, like ebugging, RRM/RWM or using earlier versions (1.07, 1.10 beta). In fact, less bad than most, because you can do it entirely using an unmodded version of the latest patch. The big problem a lot of people have is that once you get started, it's an efficient way of generating runes, which are valued very highly. However, that doesn't say anything about the process, it says something about how trade values are calculated.

Now, I said "once you get started". Getting everything organised for rushing is not a trivial process. I have played a Sorceress through Classic untwinked and levelled her to L71, which took quite a long time. I also have to have another xPac Sorceress ready to get through Hell Act 3 and to collect the forges. The rushes themselves take a while and are tedious - my guesses of 4 hours and average payout of Gul was probably very optimistic. You won't serendipitously find any useful items either, like you do while questing or Baaling for XP. In 3 rushes I have got a grand total of 3 runes higher than Um (1 Mal, 1 Ist, 1 Gul), and every one that gets traded needs replacing if I am to cube up to the runewords I want.

Now, what if I had spent all that time running LK, AT, Pindle or Meph? I'd bet I'd have found some pretty awesome gear by now. Maybe even a Ber or Sur from LK - you can do a LOT of runs in that time. After many hours playtime I can cube up to Vex now, but only by costing myself Gul + Ist + Mal + 2 Um, and all those hours I spent getting that stuff could have spent MFing some other way. So it's not some massive scam by which rushers generate those runes by expending zero effort. It's not very interesting, takes a lot of setup, and is very time-consuming.

Now, all that said, it is probably the most efficient way of getting those runes. Lots of us do it, because we'd like a shot at getting high-end runewords like CtA and HotO. You also generate a lot of the middling runes Hel-Um, which are very tradable. In theory, increased supply should result in price drops. But it doesn't appear to work that way - people are complaining that rushers get more trading firepower, because a rusher can chuck an Um at getting some item they want without wincing, while a non-rusher who concentrates on normal MFing will only usually get an Um from a PvM HF drop. But if, thanks to lots of people rushing, the supply of Ums is high then surely the price should drop regardless of whether Mr Meph runner has trouble getting them.

So: HF rushing is just another way of generating resources. Same as LK farming, Meph running, or whatever. It's more involved than most, and takes a fair bit of setup, but can be done entirely within the bounds of unmodded D2. It gives a good payout because the resource it generates is in demand. If increased supply results in reduced demand, then the payout doesn't look as good. Don't start throwing phrases like 'clearly immoral' around, because our community defines the acceptable ranges of behaviour (aka 'morality') in rather arbitrary ways, and rushing appears to be within those ranges. Thus rushing is 'moral'.

Conclusion: If you think runes are overvalued in relation to how easy it is to get them, then reduce your personal valuation of them. Don't try to ban the process with generates them.

[maxicek]

I don't think there is any way trading HF rushed runes is going to happen.

That said, the comparison with Pindle running is flawed.
1 set of HF rush is about 4 hours.
Average Pindle run =30s =120 per hour = about 500 runs in the same time period.
Pindle averages 1 TC87 per 1000 runs. I have done 5K plus runs and have had only one Mal drop. No other runes above Lem.

I'm not saying ban it, just that trading is unfairly balanced towards HF rushers at the moment. I'm not saying I wouldn't HF rush either - Send me a nice new MacBook Pro, and I'll start tomorrow :grin:

[Yaotzin]

@Naz: While you can in theory rush in unmodded d2, no one actually does, as opening 7 users on xp, combined with 7 copies of d2, would be uh..slow :)

@maxicek: Actually they can just say they got it in cows or something, it doesn't matter. It's trivially easy to cheat, if you rely on a person's story of where the rune came from to determine legitness, you're going to get burned at some point.

@sirpoopsalot: If one subscribes to the viral idea of taint, then the entire trading community is tainted by everything, including flat out cheats. Such is trading, it's always been like this.

Anyway, of course HF rushing is cheesy, but so what? ATMA is cheesy (the bank, stashes etc, there's no analogue anywhere in d2), paladins are cheesy, Infinity light sorcs are cheesy, using previous versions to get amusingly overpowered items is cheesy, whatever :p

[omgwtfbbqpwned]

If Rune trading wasn't allowed to begin with, there would be a lot less cheese.

[gerwen]

I sort of look at it from the other direction. I'm capable of doing HF rushes (2 diablo computers), but i'm not willing to put the time required in. Seems too much trouble for me.

However, i would like to use some of the higher runewords someday. If there's more legit (as in not duped) runes available to me because of HF rushes, good for me, as they should be easier for me to obtain with the proceeds of questing and MF runs.

[maxicek]

@maxicek: Actually they can just say they got it in cows or something, it doesn't matter. It's trivially easy to cheat, if you rely on a person's story of where the rune came from to determine legitness, you're going to get burned at some point.

The point I was attempting to make is that the forum used to examine every high rune drop intensely when it was posted. These days it is just "Oh another Ber."

[Naab]

I agree with naz,its just another way to rerun something and imo if you want really high runes sur+ you should run LK or cows where you can get other goodies too like charms etc and its alot funner then hfrushing :/ but ofcause for runes below sur hfrushing is the best.
btw Naz 4 hours for a set in classic?that seems slow,i can do a set in 1 hour and 30 mins in 1.09

[nex]

People are so concerned about "taint" etc but this clearly immoral practice is allowed?

Think it over guys and leave opinions please try to avoid flaming

Oh, yeah. No flaming, really. Gogo contradictions :rolleyes:

Well as you all know runes are the only real form of hard, high level currency in d2

No, in SPTF they aren't. There's no currency here... and if any form of currency exist here IMHO pgems are it.

How we get the opinions of a few HF rushers in here xD

My opinion is that this is already discused to hell and back and anyone who's interested in that subject could easily search for 10+ threads about it. It's also my opinion that this thread is very poor trolling atempt.

Nazdakka :thumbsup:

[ManTurkey]

Oh, yeah. No flaming, really. Gogo contradictions :rolleyes:



No, in SPTF they aren't. There's no currency here... and if any form of currency exist here IMHO pgems are it.



My opinion is that this is already discused to hell and back and anyone who's interested in that subject could easily search for 10+ threads about it. It's also my opinion that this thread is very poor trolling atempt.

Nazdakka :thumbsup:

Sounds to me like you are flaming me. My choice of wording is not a direct attack on anyone, maybe it is a bit extreme but that is not my intent.

I did not know that there were lots of threads on this if you look at my post and trade count you will see that i am new.

I dont know what trolling is so i cant come up with a retort for that :wave:

[Darkoooo]

If Rune trading wasn't allowed to begin with, there would be a lot less cheese.

And I 100% agree with this.

P.S. I hate cheese.

[roninDOG]

Im sure that this has been said before but running hellforge IMO is NO different than running any other part of the game. No less cheesy than playing in classic, 1.07 Eth weapons and rack running, 1.09 to lvl your guys, 1.10a for +2 BKWB, 1.10s for beta CTA, eth bugging, LK and Cows, and yada yada yada. List goes on and on. And yes, all these kinds of items have ALREADY entered the trade pool. If I spent the same time LKing a Sur or a 1.07 racked Arkaines everyone would trade me thier right arm for it but if I have HF rushed runes all of a sudden Im a villain? Makes no sense IMO.

Also, its a buttload of work to HF rush. I also HF rush in conjunction with just plain rushing chars I want to be high level without playing through 5 Acts of the same godforsaken thing. ES + TK Orb Sorc to run LK, Horker, PvP zealot, ... and ton of other characters I dont want to have to go get the Viper Amulet for the billionth time.

One more thing about economy. Trust me, you want runes to become cheaper. If you ever want to have any sort of cool runewords legitmately, you want the value of runes to decrease. You havent been here long enough but there was a time when runewords just were not common at all. With HF rushing, there is sort of an age of enlightenment around the SPF. There is wealth. Before we were banging sticks against stones....now we are sophisticated. :wink2:

-rD

[jjscud]

The point I was attempting to make is that the forum used to examine every high rune drop intensely when it was posted. These days it is just "Oh another Ber."

The argument is still backwards. Faking a LK Ber drop is 10 times more difficult than faking a Ber drop in the pits or off Duriel. In the pits all you got to do drop a Ber in the general area of a corpse and you instantly have an irrefutable Ber drop image. An LK drop on the other hand is very difficult to imitate correctly. You have 5 or 6 different items plus another 10 or so junk items and very common drop patterns. If anything, LK drops help ensure that the rune is legit, not the other way around.

Besides, there is absolutely no such thing as an illegit LK rune. Perhaps an illegit LK claim but the rune would be plain hacked.

[noobintraining]

Well, personally I feel that anybody who can endure the tedium of HF rushing has earned the reward of high runes. Not that I do it.

However, if we look at HF rushing in regards to the trading community, I must side with omgwtfbbqpwned and Darkoooo. The only way to stop the supply of rushed runes is to kill the demand for them. And I feel that the best way to do that would be to forbid rune trading.

[Darkoooo]

I feel that the best way to do that would be to forbid rune trading.

Here ye, here ye!:thumbsup:

:wave:

Or at least ban the trading of runes Hel and up. But we all know that won't happen:sad:

[noobintraining]

Here ye, here ye!:thumbsup:

:wave:

Or at least ban the trading of runes Hel and up. But we all know that won't happen:sad:

But it used to be that way, didn't it? If so, I don't think it's terribly far-fetched to reinstate that policy. It's much more feasible than banning HF rushing altogether.

Don't get me wrong, as long as rune trading is allowed, I'll do it.

[Darkoooo]

But it used to be that way, didn't it? If so, I don't think it's terribly far-fetched to reinstate that policy. It's much more feasible than banning HF rushing altogether.

Yup, I think so.


Don't get me wrong, as long as rune trading is allowed, I'll do it.

Same here, but I would be happier if there were no rune trading. It's just sad to see those Ists going so cheaply. Considering it's rather hard to find one (the easiest way(besides HF Rushing:unimpressed:) is to run Countess(1:900 odds) and that also costs a lot of time). Want to make HotO? Run LK! Or beg someone to give you his Vex, but HF Rushing is way too cheesy for me.

[Cattleya]

I actually agree with this opinion, but: good luck getting a concensus, or any action, on that. And just to be clear, I'm not being sarcastic or trying to semi-flame - my opinion is that it simply won't happen - ever.

BTW, such a decision would surely p***off some people - several of whom have helped make this community the great thing it is (and who has the authority to make that decision? Catt & Hrus? I doubt they feel that strongly or want to 'rock the boat' that badly).
Since hellforge rushing falls squarely under cheese and not cheating, Hrus and I aren't going to dictate what is and isn't allowed on that front. :grin:


Back to the OP: The best solution if you detest hellforge running is to try to get your own trade group together. The 1.11 ladder died, but that was a small community where among other things, hellforge rushing wasn't allowed. Go ahead and start up a progress thread in the SPF (not the trade forum) with the set of rules you want to play by and see who joins up. Use the ladder threads as a template to get started.

As to rune trading: People complain when they can trade runes, people complain when they can't. Banning rune trades here won't stop people from trading runes. Personally, I'd rather have it out in the open than happening behind the scenes, so I like the current policy.


Also, just a reminder, try not to let arguments get personal. It sucks when I have to close discussion threads because some people don't walk away and make a sandwitch or something before they respond to something that they have strong feelings about. :wink3:

[sirpoopsalot]

I used to be in favour of banning rune trading (completely), but now I have a little more of a mixed opinion. I feel, in some cases that a ban would actually encourage the cheese that is HF-rushing. :tongue: For example, we've had a few rune auctions where someone said "I really want to make a 'Beast', so I'm auctioning these ~12 high-end items for r00nz".

If we remove the possibility of trading for the runes, what other options does that leave the person who wants a beast? HF-rushing, Haxxx, endless Countess/LK runs, or nothing but relying upon fate. Who the hell are we to say that Bob shouldn't be able to make his Beast without the mind-numbingly-boring-monotony-of-endless-runs? If Bob's ok with the risks, costs, "immoralities", and whatever else that is involved in trading for runes, what right have we to interfere?


PS. Cattleya's point about having the trades in the open is very valid as well - even if runes weren't "allowed" to be traded before, they were still traded. When I first started playing I found a Lo and within 3 days of posting the find my PM box was full of trade-offers. I ended up trading it with lemming, but I was lucky that he's a trustworthy person - I could have easily taken an offer that was from a less trustworthy source, kept my mouth shut, and possibly had a bunch of haxxed items that I saturated through the trade community. At least now the community provides some oversight (I know I've sent a few PM's to potential traders if I thought they received a 'sketchy' offer, and I've received a few as well).

Edit:
PPS. Cattleya's other point about people endlessly complaining is also very, very true. Everyone likes to b*tch. :grin:
BTW, that's an observation of human behaviour - it's not directed at any one person.

[Darkoooo]

Back to the OP: The best solution if you detest hellforge running is to try to get your own trade group together. The 1.11 ladder died, but that was a small community where among other things, hellforge rushing wasn't allowed. Go ahead and start up a progress thread in the SPF (not the trade forum) with the set of rules you want to play by and see who joins up. Use the ladder threads as a template to get started.

Actually that's a very good suggestion:thumbsup:Too bad 1.11 Ladder died, but maybe we could revive it somehow, see how much interest it would get...

[Cattleya]

Actually that's a very good suggestion:thumbsup:Too bad 1.11 Ladder died, but maybe we could revive it somehow, see how much interest it would get...
I'd actually reccommend starting something new. I think the rules for the ladder were too restrictive for some which I think is why it never got a trade pool going. (The RRM ban comes to mind, as well as not being able to use items from previous versions.)

[noobintraining]

Actually that's a very good suggestion:thumbsup:Too bad 1.11 Ladder died, but maybe we could revive it somehow, see how much interest it would get...

Sounds like you just volunteered yourself, my friend. :wink3:



PPS. Cattleya's other point about people endlessly complaining is also very, very true. Everyone likes to b*tch. :grin:
BTW, that's an observation of human behaviour...

QTF!

And yes, while I don't particularly like rune trading, I completely see Cattleya's point. Better to have it out in the open and regulated instead of a black market.

[RibGriller]

HF running: You twink up a char and finish the game - fair enough. Slightly cheesy, but alot of effort goes into this and really its no different from any other char collecting a hellforge.

HF rushing: You MP with another, far higher lvl char which basically kills all the end bosses thus finishing the game on norm/nm very fast and allowing for uberfast HF drops. In some cases i have heard of people doing this with 7 chars at once as to get 7 HF drops at the same time.


Just to make a distinction, there are two different levels of "Rushing". When you do it in Classic, you don't have to level up your rushed chars. In the Expansion, you have to level up to at least clvl 40 to get past the NM Ancients. Most ppl that rush in Classic run with 7 chars at once. MP Rushing in the Expansion obviously requires alot more time, and I can't imagine anyone trying to level up 7 chars at the same time. :tongue:

I myself do some HF running, and have MP rushed a couple times. I've been pretty open about that in Dune's Ber quest thread, and the IFT. Even so, I don't intend to trade away any of my runes cause I am trying to make my own RWs, so don't even ask. :badteeth:

Cattleya hit it right on the head by saying that HF Rushing is in the realm of "cheese" not "cheating". We've all learned to live with a little cheese because it opens up possibilities that keep alot of folks interested in D2, and thus it helps in keeping this community more vibrant and dynamic.

It does tilt the economy a little in their favor, but I'd rather live with rushers than dupers.

[Eric Xanthu]

Wow, this thread grew fast while I was at work. Like I recently said in another thread, the cat is waaay out of the bag on HF-rush runes...the only reason I don't have rushed runes is because I'm only just now getting off NTPP. The first rune trade I make will almost 100% "taint" me if there is such a thing.

My only notable opinion on this otherwise is the one maxicek (I think) made: our economy -greatly- favors HF rushers. Some days that bugs me, others not.

[omgwtfbbqpwned]

Now, given I'm no stats/data analytical/basic grade 5 math expert, I still do believe the following picture I did in under 3 minutes should explain everyone's questions.

http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xxxow7.jpg

[noobintraining]

Now, given I'm no stats/data analytical/basic grade 5 math expert, I still do believe the following picture I did in under 3 minutes should explain everyone's questions.

http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xxxow7.jpg


Dear omgwtfbbqpwned,

If it weren't for the fact that I'm straight, I would profess my eternal love for you on the spot.

In other words, that graphic is brilliant!

- Nooby

[ManTurkey]

Now, given I'm no stats/data analytical/basic grade 5 math expert, I still do believe the following picture I did in under 3 minutes should explain everyone's questions.

http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xxxow7.jpg

Rofl :cloud9:

[sirpoopsalot]

i leik pie 2

[maxicek]

I just supressed a laugh and spat my coffee on the desk. Great chart omg.

[Joosh]

Now, given I'm no stats/data analytical/basic grade 5 math expert, I still do believe the following picture I did in under 3 minutes should explain everyone's questions.

http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xxxow7.jpg

Amen

tenchars

[Asmodeous]

Oh I could so open up on this topic. Shall I?

I shall. Get ready for a torent!

Firstly, let me clarify my position. I'm a cheeze runner. How many hell forge rushes have I done? Who knows. I'd estimate 500, probably more. I use my home lan with two computers. I own two copies of D2/LoD just to run the second computer lan back in the days before windows XP, before Atma. I Also used to rush PvP builds for people as well. There is another form of cheeze for you. Some PvP builds cannot get thru the game solo. Enter the paid rusher. I'd get all drops, cube quests and rune drops and the customer got a level 80 something character with unspent skills and stats.

Have I positioned myself as the king of cheeze yet? I must be close.

Ok then. Here is my view on the situation. As you may have worked out or probably know about me, I'm an old D2 player. Been playing ever my pre ordered copy of D2 landed in my hands back in the beginning. Thats a long time of interest in one game. How many characters? Items? heck, I am only 3-4 items away from my third holy grail.
It is Pretty hard to keep my interest in this game. I have "disapeared" from these boards time and time again for 2-3 months sometimes while I play something else but I do come back. One thing that does keep my interest going is building uber powered characters. When you have killed diablo, baal that many times with every build concievable what else do you have?
And if you are like me with bulging stashes of items. High end items? I have 4 schaefers hammers. I have a fleet of Herald of zakarums, all of them over 185% enhanced defence. Windforce? which one will I use today? How about grandfathers? Let me see, my barb can have one in each hand and another in the weapon swap and then hire a barb merc and give him one too.

So if you have an item collection like that, what don't you have? Yeah, you can see where this is going, can't you? Let's talk about my rune findings.
Ok, 5 Ist runes from the countess alone. Then who knows how many Gul's and Ists from hell forge (not counting Hf rushes here). And tons of runes from Um and lower. Over Gul? Well, I have a schaefers hammer with a v1.09 self found Ohm rune in it. I also found a Sur rune also in v1.09. But back then there was no use for that rune. No rune words, no cubing so I (in hind sight) foolishly deleted it.
So In my career of d2 finding items, hundreds, thousands of unique goodies all of use, and a handful of really top end runes.

After all these years of play, one will feel jaded. Peed off royally at the makers of D2/LoD. They dare create these rune words containing high end runes, Zod, Ber, Cham and so on. But how the heck are we ever to make them, legittly? I question, why are these runes so much harder to find than a storm spire? Or a cranium basher?

Enter hacking, duping and other methods of falsely creating valuable items. Another experience of mine, dealing with hackers trading/giving me their fake toys. I have found that if somebody is going to hack an item, they will go for a Ber/Cham/Zod/ etc than a windforce or cranium basher.
I have a collection of hacked items collected by myself from people who gave them to me, traded, what ever. Sure, there is items such as windy and so on there but the bulk of them contain runes. Silence, Fury for example. Look up the old rune words for these. Back in the days before atma, many high profile players no longer around these days, claimed they found these runes and made these toys. Then atma came along and guess what I found when I look at them with atma? Classic. Classic version runes, produced with a well known item editor program back then. I can understand them hacking up a Vex, but when they hack up a Shael or Eth rune to with it, that is just blatent craptification.

So, having said all that? what is my point of view.

Well, I like the "value" of items, green and gold pretty much how it is. Death's fathom is a valuable item because it is hard to find. Fair enough. But the value of a Zod in comparision? If a Zod came up in a trade thread, assuming it was undoubtebly legit, what would it trade for? A death's fathom? Hardly. A death's fathom would qualify as your first repayment. Runes in this game are too hard to find, far too valuable, far too easy to hack. It doesn't make sense.
yet, runes are behind the most powerful toys in the game. Would you rather use a grandfather or a Kingslayer? And kingslayer isn't the best weapon rune word is it?

Hence why I think that rune hell forge rushing is good. It devalue's runes. It makes them more accessible to more people both the rusher and those he trades them too. It also fits in with the progress of a players wealth and abilities. Hell forge rushing isn't for the new player. You need to at least build up a strong character to do the rushing with, some thing like a tals soser or a meteorber with Soj, harley, viper, etc. That means you have done some magic finding to get to that point and probably have made several characters to mat/patriarch.

Oh, and another counterpoint arguement. How much cheese is magic find runs? running the same boss over and over again to gain magic items. How valuable would items like death's fathom and grandfather be if we could not do magic find runs? What if Blizzard wrote this game so that you could only kill monsters like Baal and pindle once per character? Blizzard wrote this game so we could run these bosses over and over again with characters loaded up magic find items to pop these toys for us. Yet we cannot "magic find" runes. All we have is the countess who cannot drop anything like a Ber with any more likelyhood than a skeleton in act 5 , or the hell forge quest which is a guaranteed rune drop of at least some value with a reasonable chance of a good rune, like an Ist or Gul.

People spend time doing magic find runs in order to find X item, or find another similar rare item and hope to trade it for X item that they want. I think we can all agree that is an esentiall part of the fun of this game.
So why is doing the same thing for runes thought to be any more cheezy? Ok, so you need to use another version or a modified Dll file to do it.
But to me, in order for this game to be fun for me, I have to have a way where I can do the time and earn these runes and then reap the reward by creating an item. If I do 4 weeks of mf runs to find a grandfather or an item worth trading one for, or 4 weeks of hell forge quest runs to cube the runes to make a kingslayer.


My final point in all this.

It isn't about what method we use to get these items be it magic finding or hell forge rushing. As long as there is a "cost" (being time to do the runs) then I think that hell forge rushed runes have a place in our trading pool. because what we are really trading here is time spent.

"here, I spend 8 hours trying to find this grandfather. Would you trade me that rune you took all day to find for it?"

I think that pretty much sums up why runes are so more "valuable" than uniques. We can magic find over and over again for uniques in this game without any second computers, modified dll files and so on. And then, once our sorceress has found a grandfather, what do we do? we use ATMA to move it onto our barbarian. Last time I checked, ATMA wasn't written by blizzard and transfering items between two characters needs to be done via multi player as far as transfering goes within the game. We use ATMA to make it quicker and easier. Saving us time. So, why not hell forge rushing?

[Asmodeous]

Oh I could so open up on this topic. Shall I?

I shall. Get ready for a torent!

Firstly, let me clarify my position. I'm a cheeze runner. How many hell forge rushes have I done? Who knows. I'd estimate 500, probably more. I use my home lan with two computers. I own two copies of D2/LoD just to run the second computer lan back in the days before windows XP, before Atma. I Also used to rush PvP builds for people as well. There is another form of cheeze for you. Some PvP builds cannot get thru the game solo. Enter the paid rusher. I'd get all drops, cube quests and rune drops and the customer got a level 80 something character with unspent skills and stats.

Have I positioned myself as the king of cheeze yet? I must be close.

Ok then. Here is my view on the situation. As you may have worked out or probably know about me, I'm an old D2 player. Been playing ever my pre ordered copy of D2 landed in my hands back in the beginning. Thats a long time of interest in one game. How many characters? Items? heck, I am only 3-4 items away from my third holy grail.
It is Pretty hard to keep my interest in this game. I have "disapeared" from these boards time and time again for 2-3 months sometimes while I play something else but I do come back. One thing that does keep my interest going is building uber powered characters. When you have killed diablo, baal that many times with every build concievable what else do you have?
And if you are like me with bulging stashes of items. High end items? I have 4 schaefers hammers. I have a fleet of Herald of zakarums, all of them over 185% enhanced defence. Windforce? which one will I use today? How about grandfathers? Let me see, my barb can have one in each hand and another in the weapon swap and then hire a barb merc and give him one too.

So if you have an item collection like that, what don't you have? Yeah, you can see where this is going, can't you? Let's talk about my rune findings.
Ok, 5 Ist runes from the countess alone. Then who knows how many Gul's and Ists from hell forge (not counting Hf rushes here). And tons of runes from Um and lower. Over Gul? Well, I have a schaefers hammer with a v1.09 self found rune in it. I also found a Sur rune also in v1.09. But back then there was no use for that rune. No rune words, no cubing so I (in hind sight) foolishly deleted it.
So In my career of d2 finding items, hundreds, thousands of unique goodies all of use, and a handful of really top end runes.

After all these years of play, one will feel jaded. Peed off royally at the makers of D2/LoD. They dare create these rune words containing high end runes, Zod, Ber, Cham and so on. But how the heck are we ever to make them, legittly? I question, why are these runes so much harder to find than a storm spire? Or a cranium basher?

Enter hacking, duping and other methods of falsely creating valuable items. Another experience of mine, dealing with hackers trading/giving me their fake toys. I have found that if somebody is going to hack an item, they will go for a Ber/Cham/Zod/ etc than a windforce or cranium basher.
I have a collection of hacked items collected by myself from people who gave them to me, traded, what ever. Sure, there is items such as windy and so on there but the bulk of them contain runes. Silence, Fury for example. Look up the old rune words for these. Back in the days before atma, many high profile players no longer around these days, claimed they found these runes and made these toys. Then atma came along and guess what I found when I look at them with atma? Classic. Classic version runes, produced with a well known item editor program back then. I can understand them hacking up a Vex, but when they hack up a Shael or Eth rune to with it, that is just blatent craptification.

So, having said all that? what is my point of view.

Well, I like the "value" of items, green and gold pretty much how it is. Death's fathom is a valuable item because it is hard to find. Fair enough. But the value of a Zod in comparision? If a Zod came up in a trade thread, assuming it was undoubtebly legit, what would it trade for? A death's fathom? Hardly. A death's fathom would qualify as your first repayment. Runes in this game are too hard to find, far too valuable, far too easy to hack. It doesn't make sense.
yet, runes are behind the most powerful toys in the game. Would you rather use a grandfather or a Kingslayer? And kingslayer isn't the best weapon rune word is it?

Hence why I think that rune hell forge rushing is good. It devalue's runes. It makes them more accessible to more people both the rusher and those he trades them too. It also fits in with the progress of a players wealth and abilities. Hell forge rushing isn't for the new player. You need to at least build up a strong character to do the rushing with, some thing like a tals soser or a meteorber with Soj, harley, viper, etc. That means you have done some magic finding to get to that point and probably have made several characters to mat/patriarch.

Oh, and another counterpoint arguement. How much cheese is magic find runs? running the same boss over and over again to gain magic items. How valuable would items like death's fathom and grandfather be if we could not do magic find runs? What if Blizzard wrote this game so that you could only kill monsters like Baal and pindle once per character? Blizzard wrote this game so we could run these bosses over and over again with characters loaded up magic find items to pop these toys for us. Yet we cannot "magic find" runes. All we have is the countess who cannot drop anything a Ber any more likely than a skeleton in act 5 and the hell forge quest.

People spend time doing magic find runs in order to find X item, or find another similar rare item and hope to trade it for X item that they want. I think we can all agree that is an esentiall part of the fun of this game.
So why is doing the same thing for runes thought to be any more cheezy? Ok, so you need to use another version or a modified Dll file to do it.
But to me, in order for this game to be fun for me, I have to have a way where I can do the time and earn these runes and then reap the reward by creating an item. If I do 4 weeks of mf runs to find a grandfather or an item worth trading one for, or 4 weeks of hell forge quest runs to cube the runes to make a kingslayer.


My final point in all this.

It isn't about what method we use to get these items be it magic finding or hell forge rushing. As long as there is a "cost" (being time to do the runs) then I think that hell forge rushed runes have a place in our trading pool. because what we are really trading here is time spent.

"here, I spend 8 hours trying to find this grandfather. Would you trade me that rune you took all day to find for it?"

That to me is what makes hell forge rushing acceptable. It is because I have spent a good deal of time doing it to produce the result just like spending the same time doing magic find runs over and over. if I do pindle runs long enough, eventually I should find a grandfather or what ever unique.
So if I do hell forge rushes long enough and eventually cube up a Ber rune, is that really so much different?

[Darkoooo]

I think that pretty much sums up why runes are so more "valuable" than uniques.

Thing is that they are meant to be more valuable, but HF Rushing decreases that value. Runewords with "Bers" and such are meant to be for hardcore players (DC, grogs, Marvel etc.). Lets look at Chains of Honor, yes, it's a great runeword with +2 all skills, lots of resistance, %DR etc. But if you don't want to spend lots of time to get that Ber you can satisfy with Skin of Vipermagi also, or some other great armor, why would you really need to have CoH? Here comes HF Rushing, using a 3rd party program, using a glitch in the game - getting 6 or 7 (depends on what patch you're playing) lvl 1 characters to Hell Hellforge to get runes Hel-Gul, it sounds like breaking almost every rule of the game except cheating. Just my opinion...

[Asmodeous]

Well I think that runes are still more valuable than uniques with hell forge rushing. Hell forge rushing simply brings them down from untradable to a level where they may be considered for trade.
Another factor with unique to rune "value" is that a unique item is always that. A grandfather for example may change hands several times and be socketed several times, going from (for example) a shael to an ed jewel, to something else, but still it is always a grandfather, with a socket in it. A Ber rune by itself is useless. Once you put it into an armor or part of a rune word then it becomes part of something else such as a CoH, which is worth the same as a Ber, Ist, Um and Dol, but those runes are forever "gone", spent in the creation of the item, the CoH. Of it becomes part of an armor, increasing the armors PDR value for example.
You find a grandfather and thats it. it's a grandfather. You find a Ber, it is just a part of a CoH, or part of a Beast or what ever. It is a component and once used, it cannot be returned into a Ber again. (future patches not withstanding)

If I was not hell forge rushing, or if hell forge rushing was considered as non legit/hacking/not allowed here, then I would never trade one rune away. Not one, well, over a Lem or so anyway. It is because I hell forge rush that I can afford to trade runes such as Ist or even Gul.
Have a look at a high level trade thread. They usually trade charms, jewels, runes or high end items. IKSC, fathom, lash, etc. Items such as tals armors go for pgems. Unique/green items aren't valuable anymore. The bottom dropped out due to oversupply. people like me are responsible. You want a tal rasha armor? Sure, I have a couple spare. have you got mang songs or d web for me? No? Oh well, how about a few gems for one then. I can't be bothered trying to trade such items because people who want them cannot offer me what I want for it. It isn't their fault is it?

You say that runewords with "Bers" and such are meant to be for hardcore players. Don't I qualify as a hard core player after all my years of playing this game? That is why I guess I have this opinion. Because there is nothing else left in this game for somebody like me to work towards. Little else left to gain except to try and make these rune words. The final frontier so to speak.

An example is my Schaeferdin. I have made him as good as possible using the best items without one rune word. Great. It is good to reach that goal. Your own version of the ultimate character. So do you enjoy the character as is or do you then look for another way to improve him? I ask myself that a few times already.

I may well have done all these hell forge rushes, But I have yet to really use them for myself. My highest rune word items are a Hoto and a fortitude. Hoto I have had for years, the fortitude I made more recently, yet it still has not been used in game. Looked at, equipped, planned for my schaeferdin yet he has not yet worn it into battle. And here I sit as well with enough hell forge quest rushed runes to make a CtA and then I think I could make another Hoto or something to boot. Funny that. I sit here defending hell forge questing yet I have yet to really embrace the fruits of it myself, directly. Most in the past I have traded away.

Oh, another thing. I don't rush 6-7 mules all at once. I do it one on one. As I said before. I have a Lan, two computers, two copies of D2/Lod. All of that I am allowed to do according to blizzards eula.
It takes longer. I have tried the multiple games method but I did find it a bit too tedious all that mucking around. The only "glitch" I am using is doing it in v1.09 to make it quicker. I could do the rushes in v1.11. It would take longer.
So I guess that my level of cheeze with my hell forge rushes isn't that thick.

Before ATMA was around, people used to visit a multi player game, ask the host to keep the game up long enough while they transfered items. I used my lan. ATMA came along and made all that much easier. You still get the same end result with much less hassle and risk.

So is what I am doing that much different? I use v1.09 to save a bit of time rushing for hell forge quests just like you/I use ATMA to save time finding a MP game, joining etc to transfer items.
We do these things to save a bit of time. To take the tedious boring crap out of the game so we can concentrate on what is important. Game play. Enjoying this game. If it is too hard to get the items that we want and store/transfer them easily and enjoy the game then we get bored with it and stop playing. ATMA is a great app and we have all accepted it.
Hell forge rushing is part of what makes this game still enjoyable for me. Hell, the fact that the practice is partly "cheezy" may be part of the attraction for me.
Don't tell me that there where times in your life when bending the rules wasn't a bit fun.

[roninDOG]

:thumbsup: I agree with you Asmo, 100%. At this piont there is nothing left for me to accomplish except runewords. I dont see how creating new characters and getting thier quest rewards is any different than running LK players 8 over and over and over. Esp when we, or other people use the rushed chars later.

-rD

[Darkoooo]

Don't I qualify as a hard core player after all my years of playing this game?


Yes you do.


Oh, another thing. I don't rush 6-7 mules all at once. I do it one on one. As I said before. I have a Lan, two computers, two copies of D2/Lod. All of that I am allowed to do according to blizzards eula.
It takes longer. I have tried the multiple games method but I did find it a bit too tedious all that mucking around. The only "glitch" I am using is doing it in v1.09 to make it quicker. I could do the rushes in v1.11. It would take longer.
So I guess that my level of cheeze with my hell forge rushes isn't that thick.


And I congratulate you on that, heck most of my chars were rushed also(just not in 1.09).


Hell forge rushing is part of what makes this game still enjoyable for me. Hell, the fact that the practice is partly "cheezy" may be part of the attraction for me. Don't tell me that there where times in your life when bending the rules wasn't fun.

Yeah, I even did a HF rush once:rolleyes:. But then I realised it's way too much cheese (I did it using .dll file and rushed 6 mules and one rushee in 1.11b LoD, Jae was rushing with his sorces, we got runes equivalent to a Vex and remains in 4 hours, I realized it later that it's too easy to get High runes that way, and if I could get a HotO for 4 hours of playing it would ruin the game for me). I have some strange cheesy scale:tongue::
Rushing one character using .dll file, via LAN and similar is ok with me in whatever version.
Rushing several characters at once isn't ok with me.

But maybe I'm still too new to the game(been playing it for a year). I can imagine myself in situation where I would have the only fun having the bestest characters with bestest items. But I'm not there yet.

[Asmodeous]

Yes I know what you mean about how quickly hell forge rushes can be done.
There was a group that got together for hell forge rushing. I think they worked together co op, all joining a game while the host did the "rushing" and the others all played tag along then they divided the spoils evenly. It was quite scary how quickly they generated high end runes. And nothing stopping it happening again either.

Good for you on your attempt at a HF rush. I take it that you didn;t keep the runes? Even if you didn't, did you enjoy the game play while you where doing it? It can be part of the fun of game play in this game as well as soloing a character all the way thru.

Oh, another thing. All of my "mules" rushed to the hellforge ever became characters. I deleted them all after reaping the runes. Only the last batch did I keep some of the gems dropped from the hell forge as well. hmmm.

[jjscud]

Thing is that they are meant to be more valuable, but HF Rushing decreases that value. Runewords with "Bers" and such are meant to be for hardcore players (DC, grogs, Marvel etc.).

No, no, no. That is where you are dead wrong. Items are rare, that why DC, Grogs and Marvel keep at each other over who has the most Mangs and lashes. Runes are much rarer and end up going to relatively new players like Krovak who happens to stumble a couple Ber in an afternoons worth of running.

The problem with runes is that they are so insanely rare that you can't reasonably farm them. You must either accept that some items are unobtainable or look into other means of obtaining runes.

And, so as not to confuse people given my other posts, if asked the question how do I find X rune in game, there is always an answer, I often try to provide the best answer I can, but that doesn't mean the answer is very realistic.

[Darkoooo]

Good for you on your attempt at a HF rush. I take it that you didn;t keep the runes? Even if you didn't, did you enjoy the game play while you where doing it? It can be part of the fun of game play in this game as well as soloing a character all the way thru.

Actually I kept the runes, but soon after I gave them away to Jae(gave them back to him) and Joosh. And I didn't enjoy the game, it was too boring for me. I like to play through the game instead of being rushed...

@jjscud
Yeah, but Marvel(or grogs, but I'm sure it's Marvel) is atm doing countless LK runs, he has better chances of getting a Ber than anyone who does 1K runs. Yeah, you might get lucky, but if you want to get high runes you have to run something a lot(and that's for hard core players) or HF rush(which is really cheesy).

[jjscud]

@jjscud
Yeah, but Marvel(or grogs, but I'm sure it's Marvel) is atm doing countless LK runs, he has better chances of getting a Ber than anyone who does 1K runs. Yeah, you might get lucky, but if you want to get high runes you have to run something a lot(and that's for hard core players) or HF rush(which is really cheesy).

Well, yes, and don't get me wrong, personally, I'm going the LK route also. I have no interest in HF'ing myself.

My point is this, many items in the game are simply unobtainable for 99% of the SP population. All must either accept this as fact or use another means. There are a few players (3 that I know of) who have determined to be part of that remaining 1% but as for the rest. Well, this community has never been one for accepting something like that.

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I believe that most HF'ers are trying to acquire some of these RWs that would be otherwise unobtainable and not flooding the trade pool. Of course every now and then some twit comes and make an crazy auction that they can't turn down but that is the exception and not the rule.

[Nazdakka]

@jjscud
Yeah, but Marvel(or grogs, but I'm sure it's Marvel) is atm doing countless LK runs, he has better chances of getting a Ber than anyone who does 1K runs. Yeah, you might get lucky, but if you want to get high runes you have to run something a lot(and that's for hard core players) or HF rush(which is really cheesy).

To be honest, I think LK-farming a Ber is probably faster than HF-rushing one. That's what, 32 Guls? Even if you can do rushes in 2 hours flat (I can't beat 3) and get a Gul's worth of runes each time, that's ~64 hours. 100 runs an hour would get you 6000 LK runs in the same time, which, from our best guess at the odds, gives a pretty good chance of finding a Ber. You'd also get the usual Skillers and lower runes, while you don't get from forge-rushing.

My intention while rushing is to get the runewords I'm after: Chaos, CtA, HotO. Sometimes the runes get traded, but not all that often, and I'm upfront about it.

[Darkoooo]

To be honest, I think LK-farming a Ber is probably faster than HF-rushing one. That's what, 32 Guls? Even if you can do rushes in 2 hours flat (I can't beat 3) and get a Gul's worth of runes each time, that's ~64 hours. 100 runs an hour would get you 6000 LK runs in the same time, which, from our best guess at the odds, gives a pretty good chance of finding a Ber. You'd also get the usual Skillers and lower runes, while you don't get from forge-rushing.

My intention while rushing is to get the runewords I'm after: Chaos, CtA, HotO. Sometimes the runes get traded, but not all that often, and I'm upfront about it.

Actually, by one HF Rush you get a Gul and a half in average, lets say the rush takes 2,5 hours. So you would need ~50 hours to get one Ber. You can do only around 50 LK runs per an hour, so in 50 hours you could do ~2500 runs. With those 2500 runs you aren't guaranteed to get a Ber rune, but by HF rushing you will get it for sure.

[sirpoopsalot]

Actually, by one HF Rush you get a Gul and a half in average, lets say the rush takes 2,5 hours. So you would need ~50 hours to get one Ber. You can do only around 50 LK runs per an hour, so in 50 hours you could do ~2500 runs. With those 2500 runs you aren't guaranteed to get a Ber rune, but by HF rushing you will get it for sure.

nitpick: on my old map I could do a LK run in about 25 seconds, consistently running under 30. That's 120/hour, which is more like 6000 runs in 50 hours. Still no guarantees, but it's pretty solid odds based on everyones experiences. Of course, you can have a crappy spell with HF rushes and only manage a Sur + Lo in those ~50 hours too. The thing about rushing is that you are guaranteed to at least make some progress... you could spend a lot of time in LK and have some charms/jewels/etc. - but crap-all for runes.

And I thought it was a ~Gul per rush, but I really don't know (or care).

[ManTurkey]

i think the average for a ber on lk is 11k runs