Buriza vs WWS?

[Sanct]

I decided to try out a bowazon a few weeks back when I got a WWS from a mephisto run. It has been a lot of fun and I was quite happy with the killing power. I recently found a buriza, and decided to try it out. After clearing the chaos sanctuary in nightmare in a couple minutes with it, I was almost ready to throw my WWS away. Even when the amp triggered, the buriza was doing far more damage, and I have trouble triggering the amp except in especially large packs. I have noticed however that none of the posts here seem to talk about it, as if it really is not considered an option.

Is there anyone who uses a buriza? I know it does not compare to Faith or Windforce but I am not that rich. How does it compare to an upped WWS (I do not have the runes to up it yet)? It looks like with the increased damage it would be slightly better than the buriza since it is faster, but then again I could up the buriza and it would do more damage as well. The nice mods on the buriza (cold damage, 100% pierce, +35 dex, freezes target) and the WWS (resistance, deadly strike, amp) make it more complicated.

Thanks for any input.

[NASE]

both require a build that is made for it. A wws build will be better with a wws then with a buriza, a buriza biuld will...

Normally, a up'ed wws can be just a good as a (up'ed) buriza. Perhaps not at killing power though there are other thing people consider important. If you have build around the wws, perhaps you want to give us a peek at your build. Perhaps we can give you some nice suggestions.
And definately don't forget to have a look at the guides.

[sirmessbu]

Biggest reason people use bows over crossbows is speed.

Bows can get to a 7fps attack rate while crossbows cap at 11fps.

[WrongdayJ]

I am a huge proponent of the Buriza.

To be honest, I haven't used the WWS too much.
I want to be clear, though, that I am definately not saying that the Buriza is the better weapon. All I know is that the good ol' tried-and-true Buriza still lays the smack down pretty darn hard.

I agree with NASE- you really want your build to 'feature' the weapon when you use the WWS. With the Buriza you have a bit more flexability and can waffle a bit with your other equipment and skill choices more.

BOTH of these are fine weapons, though, and in the right build can be utterly dominant.

[Mav451]

Well skill points are one of the biggest things. With WWS, you can leave CS base. With burrito, you leave Pierce at base. The minute you change your weapon (with either build), you're gonna have quite a gap to fill.

^^ Buriza tends to give you more options, however, cuz of the str req. Having that high of a strength keeps you close enough to str req of WF, and 2 over the str req for a GMB. Also no points in pierce AND no requirement for razor tail is nice.

I'd pretty much use Buriza over most other lower end bows. The only other one I used (that is below WF) is the kuko for PI's. However, I'm reconsidering this b/c my zon with 33 skill points left my eventually turn into a Fishy WSK zon, lol.

Oooh and one more thing. WWS build capitalizes on strafe (for CTC effects to activate). Therefore if you have a big crowd (where I prefer MS), you will be losing out on this a bit. This is where I like the flexibility of a big dmg weapon. The freeze and dex bonus are also pretty nice (sometimes ice-cube revivables).

*Shrug* I suppose I'm a burrito proponent then, lol.

[MuffinMan]

Why not try both? Both bows are dirt cheap anyways.
I use both on my budget bowa, mainly a frostmaiden build with a few points in strafe. Even if my wws is upgraded and got dual shaels, killing speed is almost the same as non upgraded/unsocketed burrito (currently lvl 85 with ALL points in dex). That said, I only have 1 hard point in pierce, cause it was originally a burritobuild... But facing big crowds, I combine the two.
Using my valk and decoy to attract monsters and strafe with wws till amp damage triggers, then switch to burrito to deal some serious damage.

Edit: do not forget that wws fires lvl20 magic arrows at normal attack! PIs? no problem :laugh:

[Von Lazuli]

I find that Buriza is a very ineffective weapon unless you build around it. OK, ineffective is a lie, but it doesn't truely shine unless you build for it. Once you try strafing with a Buriza at 11/3 fpa, you experience the true beauty of the Buriza. It has absolutely massive damage and at that speed it is simply devastating. The catch is that 205IAS doesn't grow on trees...

WWS is a beautiful bow and is tried and true. I love my Witchy Strafer, but I really enjoy playing my Buriza strafer more, simply because noone ever uses a crossbow...

Laz

[Sanct]

Yeah, I am not looking for something like 'this bow is objectively better,' its just that I have seen the WWS referenced in quite a few guides and the buriza referenced in none, it makes me think that there is something wrong with the buriza. I was just making sure that it was not bugged or something and so that's why I do not see anything about it anymore.

As for my build, I am at 20 valk, 10 strafe, 7 MS, and 1 in prereqs and all passive/magic skills. I have not really decided to do with all the rest of the points yet, I have a lot of spares. I have generally been MSing large groups and then strafing the leftovers. I have considered just maxing strafe but the damage bonus seems so small to be worth it. Frozen arrow would probably be good if I go with the buriza.

I am definitely not rich enough to reach 215% IAS for the buriza (if I had enough IAS jewels to reach that I would probably just get a windforce or something), so I will have to settle for less than the best.

Thanks for the input, it is good to know that I am not crazy for liking the buriza.

[Mav451]

Yeah, I am not looking for something like 'this bow is objectively better,' its just that I have seen the WWS referenced in quite a few guides and the buriza referenced in none, it makes me think that there is something wrong with the buriza. I was just making sure that it was not bugged or something and so that's why I do not see anything about it anymore.

As for my build, I am at 20 valk, 10 strafe, 7 MS, and 1 in prereqs and all passive/magic skills. I have not really decided to do with all the rest of the points yet, I have a lot of spares. I have generally been MSing large groups and then strafing the leftovers. I have considered just maxing strafe but the damage bonus seems so small to be worth it. Frozen arrow would probably be good if I go with the buriza.

I am definitely not rich enough to reach 215% IAS for the buriza (if I had enough IAS jewels to reach that I would probably just get a windforce or something), so I will have to settle for less than the best.

Thanks for the input, it is good to know that I am not crazy for liking the buriza.

It's for this very reason that I already considered making a hybrid. With the extreme nerf on strafe, why bother increasing it's damage, if it barely makes a dent into that 25% penalty? Instead (if you have enough +skills), let those bring it up to 5 for 10 targets, and simply leave it that. Once I had a stronger bow (WF), I found that unless I was in a strafe-specific place (Pits), I was using MS 80/20 anyway.

I only put a few points into MS, and with a level 8 or 9 MS, there's already plenty of arrows coming out. You will find that a Buriza just doesn't do enough damage for bosses in Hell. In NM? Put on some LoH and watch Meph/Baal fall. But not the case in Hell. Same applies to stone skin supers in Hell (PI will be even worse if you don't have a merc with Reaper's). But the boss damage will rear it's ugly head (which is what I'm dealing with right now, even with WF/Fort!)

Just something to keep in mind. Never too early to plan ahead lol.

[NASE]

maxing strafe has more use then just that plain 10% off weapon ed. There is a minimal arrow cap, so if you want to use strafe as bosskiller - better then guided if you have decent equipment - you want 20 points.
The other reason is that you don't have much other options. A good bowazon played correct doesn't need points in d/e/a, will already have great ar or even itd and doesn't need 20/20 for huge valk. Then you are left with points. Best is to place them in strafe anyway.

P.S. for hybride, the story is a bit different. Perhaps more people should consider not maxing strafe here.
P.P.S. where did you test wws versus buriza? Best is to try this in hell. This is the place to be and the monsters will have better physical resistence, making the amp from wws much more important then buriza.

[Mav451]

maxing strafe has more use then just that plain 10% off weapon ed. There is a minimal arrow cap, so if you want to use strafe as bosskiller - better then guided if you have decent equipment - you want 20 points.

I already know this - but as I already mentioned in my other thread, Next Delay will pretty much nerf that until you drop at least 1 or 2 additional BPs. E.g. I have lvl 16 strafe after skills. That's 16/4 + 2 = 6 minimum arrows. Good deal right?

Nope. At 9/3, Next Delay cuts the effective arrows in half to 3.
9, (12 miss), 15, (18 miss), 21, (24 miss). Add on top of that GA always hits, doesn't have the 3/4 penalty, and I found with my 9/3strafe speed that it was doing 16-18% less damage than using pure GA. Add on that ur AR against the upper Act Bosses is under 80% (unless you have a Faith) and that # may be even smaller.

Now, you are right, however, in maxing strafe (if you're gonna use it anyway). Definitely a max it or don't bother skill. If I had, then that extra arrow at 27 frames hits, raising my strafe effective arrow count to 4 (out of 7) per strafe cycle. This ends up doing with 1-5% of the GA dmg. Good deal right? Well, for a 20pt investment I started thinking. If I rarely use strafe and I'm only raising it for min arrow count (only applies to bosses), then wouldn't be better putting those points into something else? A maxed GA will not only do more damage, but also be nice for those random PKers who come into your games.

Or, the alternative as I've been discovering, is to tap into the Amazons 3rd tree. And I say why not. Its gives you more flexibility in your mercs weapon (don't have to wait for Decrep).

*And definitely agree on Valk. I only put 11-12pts in her and let +skills raise it to 17. And on D/A/E, I've found that with +6 skills...those skills already activate PLENTY for PVM. I hear the avoid/evade sound alot considering I only put 1 hard point in it - not a bad deal.

And if someone mentions, "oh no, then avoid/evade kicks in for flayers in WSK" - uh...slow missile? Trust me, I used to be a strafer and leave my finger on the right-click, but those days are over.

*edit*
Probably seems obvious, but b/c the next extra arrow will miss (at lvl 24) you would need at least lvl 28 until the next arrow hits. So, in a way, you will need an extra 8 lvls PER extra effective arrow. This obviously will make your strafe cycle longer too...

E.g. 2K dmg per strafe arrow:
lvl20 = 2+5 arrows;
9, (12), 15, (18), 21, (24), 27
lvl24 = 2+6 arrows;
9, (12), 15, (18), 21, (24), 27, (30)
lvl28 = 2+7 arrows;
9, (12), 15, (18), 21, (24), 27, (30), 33

Kinda sucks that you have to add 8 skill points for a single arrow, not to mention lengthening your strafe cycle by 6 frames for that.
27frames/strafe = 0.9259strafe/s * 4 eff. arrows/strafe * 2K dmg/arrow = 7.4K
33frames/strafe = 0.7575strafe/s * 5 eff. arrows/strafe * 2K dmg/arrow = 7.57K

Probably not worth going for lvl28 strafe then. lvl20 strafe, though, would basically be equal to my base lvl1 GA.

[WrongdayJ]

. . .I hear the avoid/evade sound alot considering I only put 1 hard point in it - not a bad deal. . .And if someone mentions, "oh no, then avoid/evade kicks in for flayers in WSK" - uh...slow missile? Trust me, I used to be a strafer and leave my finger on the right-click, but those days are over. . .

I couldn't agree more. The whole D/A/E/ Lock thing is overblown WAY out of proportion if you ask me. I always put a point or two into those skills, it's NEVER been a problem, and I've never once regretted it.

[NASE]

your information about next delay is old. Come back when you have updated data.

P.S. why there are only two monsters, strafe will be usefull. Atleast 7 arrows at two monsters instead of 3 (for lvl 5).
P.P.S. d/e/a isn't a big problem for bowazon as you playing behind the valk/decoy merc combo. As javazon, mostly you play much more agressive making d/e/a a bigger problem. As mele-azon - mostly fend -, this really get problematic.

[Mav451]

your information about next delay is old. Come back when you have updated data.

Doh. I think I found that info just using a search (guess I didn't check the date). Where's the updated data then?

[NASE]

somewhere on this forum...

[edit]
found one, note that SSoG doesn't think strafe is a good bosskiller.
http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5476107&postcount=14

[SSoG]

somewhere on this forum...

[edit]
found one, note that SSoG doesn't think strafe is a good bosskiller.
http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5476107&postcount=14

It's a fine bosskiller, it's just that Guided is better on all counts.