Reconsidering My Position on Crushing Blow & Bowazons

[maiku]

Last night I was trying out Waterwalks and Goblin Toes for the 25% Crushing Blow on my Witchyzon (using upped Witchwild String bow, maxed Strafe, 82% Deadly Strike from WWS & my level). My test area, as usual, was Canyon of the Magi in Hell difficulty in a solo Bnet game. I pick this area because it's not too hard or deadly and enemies like Crushers have high life and normally are somewhat tedious to kill.

What surprised me is how much faster I kill with Goblin Toes on. While I wouldn't recommend Goreriders for a Witchyzon Strafer unless one planned to kill bosses a lot, I noticed the 25% CB from Goblin Toes seems to work very well in combination with WWS's Amp. I already know that when CB procs, a monster can lose 1/8th of its life (this is compared to 1/4th for melee hits, where CB is king). CB loses its effectiveness if a monster has high physical immunity, stone skin, or total physical immunity. With Amp in effect and to reduce physical resistance, CB seems much more effective than it should be and enemies are CBed several times a Strafe cycle. If you're using Cat's Eye, it provides you some faster run and having a few small charms of 3% faster run can even out the lack of FRW on Goblin Toes. I may have to rethink my position on Crushing Blow and bowazons. I remember when I tried CB (Rattlecage + Goblin Toes) without Amp on a bowazon, it seems like it didn't add that much damage with Strafe and kill enemies much faster. War Travs in such a Amp-less setup would outperform a CB setup then, especially with high dex I think. With Amp damage and Strafe, CB can prove formidable. I can also try Goreriders later tonight on my zon, if I switch them over from my Zealot to compare how those compare against the other boots.

I have usually advised others to use War Travelers, because they have a lot of good stats for a budget bowazon or WWS build (the MF, +10 str, vit, and 10-25 off-weapon ED are all useful). However, considering how much Goblin Toes sped up killing enemies, I am starting to have some doubts now about my previous recommendation.

Would a better Witchyzon setup actually include significant amounts of CB to take advantage of the bow's Amp & DS?

Here's my Witchyzon's usual setup:

Weapon: 166% ED upped WWS w/ 2 Shaels
Helm: Stealskull w/ Perfect Topaz.
Amulet: Cat's Eye.
Armor: Treachery in Dusk Shroud
Gloves: Laying of Hands. I use 1-point FA for crowd control.
Rings: dual Ravenfrosts
Belt: Razortail.
Boots: Travs, although these are currently on my Frostmaiden.

[Darkflight]

Many people are turned off by the fact that crushing blow is only half as effective with ranged attacks as with meele attacks. Truth is that crushing blow becomes better and better the less damage you do, no matter if you are ranged or meele. Since Witchyzons are constantly casting Amplify Damage on enemies, crushing blow will be more effective for them than a Bowazon using Faith or Windforce. (Unless they are using Atmas Scarab)

I think many people should reconsider crushing blow on their Bowazons like you have done.

[KremBanan]

On my Wf build, I prefer Gores. The CB, OP and DS makes, IMO, the killing goes faster than Wartravelers. So Im not surprised that others now start to like other boots than Wts..

[fartAttack]

i always wondered why strafers didn't use CB even though they could. as many arrows as you'd be putting out, i'd think that would help compensate for the range nerf cb has. seems to me like a witchyzon would be perfect for a CB, which is actaully why i've tried encorporating a bit of it into my upcoming witchyzon build. then again, i'm also thinking about using a wisp for it's CTC lightning.

[WrongdayJ]

I agree with your new position regarding CB.

I think that CB is totally underrated with regards to all ranged attackers- not just Bowies. I also depend on it heavily on my Double throw-Barbarian builds, too, mainly because Boss killing takes so darn long with them. Toss in a little CB and Voila! Problem solved.

[maiku]

i always wondered why strafers didn't use CB even though they could. as many arrows as you'd be putting out, i'd think that would help compensate for the range nerf cb has. seems to me like a witchyzon would be perfect for a CB, which is actaully why i've tried encorporating a bit of it into my upcoming witchyzon build. then again, i'm also thinking about using a wisp for it's CTC lightning.

I think most bowazons also don't consider it because of the choice of skills. If CB and other special effects are only carried on the two central arrows in a Multishot spread, CB, Amp, etc., all of those effects are fairly useless and what is more important is raw damage. Most of the monsters hit will not be affected by any special effects.

However, as we know and have discussed, every Strafe arrow has the potential to trigger special effects, setting off Amp, DS, CB, Open Wounds, Slow, etc. Strafers should be more aware of this and make better use of it with Strafe. Just like a Zealot, a Strafer makes it inevitable that special effects will proc, even ones with small %, quickly and regularly. That is part of the premise behind why WWS is such a strong little bow, after all. It's the combination of Amp and Deadly Strike procing often with Strafe that makes the bow powerful and a group killer. I noticed as I was mowing down Crushers, that some of them only took 2-3 arrows before they went down, if they were CBed, Amped, and presumably hurt badly by DS (which I think is very likely at 82%). Many Crushers would get hit 2-4 times by CB in rapid succession by arrows. Another nice thing about CB is that it can scale, at least in solo or small games, with monster life, doing that 1/8th of monster's life in damage per hit, no matter how big or small the monster's life is.

I think there is a point where if you have too little CB, extra +dex or +damage from other gear will probably be better for your overall damage output and kill speed than, say, 5-10% would (like from crafted Blood gloves). At 25% from just Goblin Toes, I noticed it was regular--almost every monster was likely to be CBed once--and with Amp often in effect (remember that if Amp triggers from WWS, it has a larger radius of effect and curses the whole pack, unlike the very small radius of Atma's Scarab), the effect was brutal. I sometimes mowed down packs and mini-bosses and their followers offscreen during my test runs in a very short time, without really being aware that I had killed more enemies than those onscreen. I'll try adding Guillaume's Face, Rattlecage, and Goreriders in addition to Goblin Toes to try varying levels of CB and how much it affects kill speed. I really do think, though, that the WWS build is one of the best Strafer builds to take advantage of CB. WWS's large Amp radius and DS seem to synergize with CB to make this kind of zon a killing machine. I might also get my Eaglehorn and test it out on this Witchyzon, to see what effects are like without Amp, and to further think about this. (She does have some points invested in Critical Strike. For a while, I thought I was going to switch her over to the Eaglehorn, but decided against it. Going to make another bowazon to use the Eaglehorn.)

[fartAttack]

rattlecage, there's one i didn't think of. that could be a really nice choice for a strafer. monster flea and CB. i'd be a little leery on using a gulls face, though. yeah, its got great CB, but i think you'd be hard pressed to find a source to replace the leach you get from your helm.

if you had the money, i think a duress RW could work pretty well. you get OW, CB, and ED to boot. add the resists you get from that, and you've got a pretty solid armor for a CB witcyzon. in fact, i'd probably go as far to say that duress might be for a witchy what a fort is for a faith/multi. of course, i'd have to get my hands on one and test it, first.

something tells me, though, that i'd be better off keeping a balanced, well rounded set-up. i think 25% CB from gores and gloves would be enough, and you wouldn't have to change much else.

[HellPlayer]

Will this possible setup for a strafer work?
-windforce"shael";
-treachery;
-LoH;
-guillaumes"15ias jewell";
-ravenfrost;
-rare ring with LL and stats or res;
-atmas ammy;
-razortail;
-goreriders or goblin(gores is better as ammy isnt a cats eye).
How this can go in dmg compared to a regular strafer with fortitude armor?This is for a regular merc(no act1 faith ones) and speed is decent but can someone test this or calculate dmg?
HellPlayer

[Mav451]

I think that's tough to figure. Problem is, it's hard to quantify the 2% from atma's vs. having say a Highlord's (and in which then, you don't need to sacrifice armor for an IAS armor). On that alone, I don't believe going from 9/3 strafe to 9/2 is worth it b/c of the boost Fort gives (nearly 50% more effective damage overall). But with your equipment, if you took off the Treachery you'd end up with only 75IAS (5 below what you need for even 9/3).

I myself have fairly similar equipment (WF 'shael', raven + dual leech, LoH) but I'm not as willing to sacrifice equipment to get that extra IAS. Going from 10frame to 9frame MS didn't make that big of a difference to me. However 9/3 to 9/2 is - but losing 300%ED for a faster strafe is tough.

This is the quick calculation I did in my head (may or may not be accurate):
I have lvl 16 strafe >> minimum 6 arrows per strafe

9/2 - 19 frames per strafe cycle
9/3 - 24 frames per strafe cycle

If you change this into arrows/s, the 9/2 gets about 1.6more arrows per second. OTOH, the 9/3 arrows have a 1.5x multiplier (since if you have 300 dex, that 300%ED adds to it like dex)...so this is my quick and dirty calc:

1.316 strafes/s * 6 arrows/strafe * [dmg/arrow] = dmg/s
1.042 strafe/s * 6 arrows/strafe * 1.5 (fort) * [dmg/arrow] = dmg/s

9/2: 7.896X damage/s multiplier
9/3: 9.378X damage/s multiplier

Then there's the issue of next delay, high def monsters (act bosses, uber town skellies) and the extra arrows per second may even be nullified vs. slightly less arrows that hit harder.

If my math looks funny to anyone, please correct me b/c this is what I've been using for my own calculations.

[Delreich]

If you change this into arrows/s, the 9/2 gets about 1.6more arrows per second. OTOH, the 9/3 arrows have a 1.5x multiplier (since if you have 300 dex, that 300%ED adds to it like dex)...
Errm... you lost me there. How would +300% ED equal 50% more damage?
Even if fort and dex where your only sources of ED (which they aren't) that
would mean a multiplier of 7 vs one of 4, and that's 75% more.
As for sources of ED, strafe has some (+5%/lvl) and you probably have either a
might merc (possibly with pride) or a rogue with faith for another +200% or so
(more like +500% with pride). And then there's jewels...

50% might very well be correct, but you need to justify it better.

[Mav451]

Well I use it as a conservative value. I have no idea how much dex people have these days (glass or a good balance).

But you're right, I should have listed my assumptions. As an engineer, I should know better =D.

On the "50% more damage" notice I said in the previous sentence that it is an effective damage boost. E.g. the way most people would think it. ED damage is a bit harder to calculate since you gotta factor in base damage and all other ED together (again, as you stated in your post). A good example of potential ED confusion could be LoH gloves. 350% sounds great, until your realize it's not actually 350% more damage, rather 350% damage based on your original base damage.

The key is realizing that 350% ed is NOT an 3.5X "effective" damage boost. The actual effective boost is MUCH smaller (40-60%, depending on DEX, skills, etc.) Again, this is why I use the word effective -- it allows a quick "eye-ball" analysis of the #'s.

[maiku]

K, ran some tests on different CB setups (Goblin Toes, crafted Blood gloves w/ 10% CB, Rattlecage, and Guillaume's Face) as I promised, with a WWS, and here's what I noticed. I tested in solo Bnet games in Canyon of the Magi, mostly against Crushers and Hell Cats. I'm not going to be particularly scientific here but these are my general observations.

20-35% CB = optimal amount to drastically improve kill speed and to kill normal monsters, champions, and mini-bosses w/ their minions. Can be added with Goblin Toes (25%), Goreriders (15%) + crafted Blood gloves, or Guillaume's Face (35%). Guillaume's Face, though, looks terrible on a zon. This could also be added with Duress (15%) which has some very nice mods on it besides the CB. You can equip Rattlecage (25%, Monster Flee), but I do believe it's better on a melee merc. (Guillaume's Face + Rattlecage is the ugliest sight I have seen on a zon. Dark purple with horns? I think I'm going blind.) 20-35% CB gives you a lot of opportunities to CB an opponent 1-3 times during a Strafe volley. If WWS's Amp goes off, critters drop dead super fast. With 100% Pierce and tight clustering of enemies using Decoy, Valk, and Merc, Amp triggers often.

50-60% CB = 2-4 CBs quite often on enemies and improves kill speed a little more, but you can lose damage by being forced to compromise quite a bit on equipment; e.g., losing Venom from Treachery (a loss of 300ish instant poison per arrow) or dexterity from other items.

85-95% CB = a little more improvement in kill speed, makes champions and mini-bosses pop very fast, but is a huge strain on equipment choices and you lose a lot of dexterity or other types of damage from items. I had to swap out a Ravenfrost for a dual leech ring and use Guillaume's Face, Rattlecage, Goblin, and Blood gloves. You will get CB with just about every arrow, but it's pretty much a waste, IMO. It doesn't matter that you reduce the enemy's life 1/8th with every CB, because he should've dropped dead from 2-5 arrows, depending on whether CB, Amp, and DS all went off. This level of CB is definite overkill, and perhaps 50-60% is as well. So much CB could be useful to kill bosses quick, but then again, you'd be very, very fragile. Make a CS javazon if you want to run bosses, IMO.

Maybe a lot of CB would be useful in a 5-8 player game, but in solo or small games I think just a little CB is needed to boost your bowazon a lot. This can be very useful for budget bowies who want to do a lot of solo runs of say Pit or Chaos Sanc for MFing. For bowazons not using WWS, add Atma's Scarab to simulate or get better effects with your bows. With that CB, you should be very deadly.