Enigma or Fortitude for sorc?

[pierrejpc]

Which do you guys recommend?

[ulmeda]

Chains of Honour not an option?

[Uncle_Mike]

Fortitude would be a bad choice imo, common armors are Chains of Honor, good old Skin of the Viper magi, at times Ormus...heck, I would take stealth over fortitude for a sorc.

Fortitude is a melee armor.

[JME]

Fortitude would be a bad choice imo, common armors are Chains of Honor, good old Skin of the Viper magi, at times Ormus...heck, I would take stealth over fortitude for a sorc.

Fortitude is a melee armor.

And Enigma is for characters that can't already tele.:shocked:

As for fortitude, I plan on using one on my sorc but then again she's a melee sorc. :wink3:

I'd have to agree with Uncle_Mike. COH and an upped Vipermagi are your best choices, with Ormus or perhaps some cheaper options outshining enigma or fortitude for a typical sorc.

[brokensvt]

Well, Enigma is THE premiere PvM ES sorc armor...

CoH is as overrated as the others, offering only 2 skills, 65 resists, and some strength and MF...and I use it on my PvM non-ES light sorc despite that...

Vipermagi, especially upped, is a great armor...

I've always considered using Fort on a PvM non-ES sorc. The resists, extra life, and 25% FCR are nice and I always thought the CTC Chilling would be fun. I say go for it and let us know how it turns out!

[AlabasterFilth]

Depending on what type of sorc you are, I'd have to say that upped Vipermagi socketed with Um is probably better than either Enigma or Fortitude.

Enigma is good for MF'ing...but if you're MF'ing, a Skullder's socketed with Ptopaz/Ist is better.

[JME]

Well, Enigma is THE premiere PvM ES sorc armor...


Not that I've built many ES sorcs, but why's that?

Straight DR is typically superior to % DR. When using skills such as ES, battle cry, or decrepify straight DR becomes far superior to % DR. IIRC, enigma and COH both have 8% DR.

As far as I know, damage to mana is applied to damage received to your life bulb (as in after other factors come into play). This means coupled with ES, the 15% damage to mana on enigma should be doing next to nothing. However, it is noted that ES would be applied before resists making most of the resists on COH worthless. Although, it is good to keep in mind what mana burn monsters can do to Eshield, meaning resists are still a good thing to have.

Basically, the only thing I can really see that enigma has going for it is the strength boost and COH gives a decent strength boost. Since most people use APs, if you count on a decent torch and anni enigma really wouldn't save you any stat points. I suppose if you used a MP you might could get ~100 extra life or ~100 extra mana, although I'm unsure as to how that would qualify enigma as the premiere armor of choice for ES sorcs. Even fortitude would add about 95 life, fcr, straight DR, some resists, and damage to mana, albeit no skills (which I've already said wouldn't be my top pick for a sorc unless melee). Personally, I'd rather have max resists and the strength for some gear flexibility if need be (hence COH). If not, I'd go with upped Vipermagi for all the obvious reasons and I like fortitude on my melee sorcs. For me at least, enigma would be my bottom choice for any sorc.

I'm not trying to argue really, I'm just having trouble seeing how some extra stat points can benefit that build so much since that's really all enigma has to offer a sorc that other armors don't offer in some way as well. Oh well, it's getting late in the work day and I should be doing other things, so perhaps I've overlooked something.

Enigma is good for MF'ing...but if you're MF'ing, a Skullder's socketed with Ptopaz/Ist is better.
I'd rather use a ptopazed tal armor.

[brokensvt]

By using MP or Breastplate, you get ~200 more mana or life. The huge strength bonus allows you to wear Spirit far more easily, giving another(easy) 100 mana, 44 life and 2 skills. Enigma's 2 skills and massive MF bonus are just icing on the cake, and no matter how we argue it the DTM is helpful(not an end-all mana fix), and the life after kill is gravy. It's honestly the best bang-for-the-buck.

CoH can't be made in a MP due to MP's only taking up to 3 sockets, and the 65 resists are useless to a PvM sorc(other than poison).

[JME]

By using MP or Breastplate, you get ~200 more mana or life. The huge strength bonus allows you to wear Spirit far more easily, giving another(easy) 100 mana, 44 life and 2 skills. Enigma's 2 skills and massive MF bonus are just icing on the cake, and no matter how we argue it the DTM is helpful(not an end-all mana fix), and the life after kill is gravy. It's honestly the best bang-for-the-buck.

CoH can't be made in a MP due to MP's only taking up to 3 sockets, and the 65 resists are useless to a PvM sorc(other than poison).

I definitely wasn't thinking when I said COH could possibly go into MP.:rolleyes:

However, spirit could be worn regardless of COH or Enigma. If you considered making it to level 90 on a character before wearing any gear (which would be rather unreasonable in my opinion for most players but still doable), enigma in a MP would save you 52 stat points over COH in an AP.

I'll tell how I got to this since this may be a point of oversight for one of us. A sorc has base st of 10 + 40 from perfect anni and torch leaving you with 50 strength. Another 5 hard points will be required just to wear the MP enigma, upon which you will get another 67 strength bonus at level 90. At this point you will still need another 34 hard points spent in strength to wear spirit or SS, making the total hard points in strength 39. Now for an AP COH, you would have 10 + 40 + 53 hard points to wear COH, upon which you receive another 20. At this point you will need to add another 33 hard points into strength in order to wear spirit or SS. This means 86 hardpoints for COH and 34 hard points for enigma, a difference of 52 points, or 104 life or mana. However, this comes at the sacrifice of early playability and end game flexibility, and the resists which may or may not come into use depending on the situation (more often than it should thanks to the mana burn bug).

Granted that is before any items such as frostburns (if such items are used). Again, this is personal preference but I'd rather have resists and gear flexibility over ~100 mana. I'm failing to see how you get 200, but even then I'd rather have resists for when my ES goes down in a pack of mana burn souls.

As for damage to mana, if we used an instance where a monster did 100 physical damage (undeniably high average in the diablo world, the very hardest hitters in the game do 76-115) and we had an ES that took in 75% damage, that would be 25 damage after Eshield, and 23 damage after COH or enigma (this is a great example of how much better straight DR is with Eshield, if using something like fort it would be 18 or 5 with gladiator's bane). This means the 15% damage to mana from enigma will be 3.45 mana, rounded down. If we had a higher Eshield it would be even lower. I'll admit that's something, but hardly worth mentioning. Life after kill however would prove far more useful, as you mentioned.

I suppose in the end it may be more of an option than I originally suggested but I hardly see it as the obvious choice.

EDIT at Leohappy: I suppose one of the major things is whether or not the sorc uses stormshield or spirit, which will make a difference in the resists. On an ES sorc since resists are less desirable one of the biggest advantages of COH is diminished. Even so, I'd have to say that my top pick for an eshield sorc would be an Upped sol'd Vipermagi. After eshield (and perhaps a sol'd shako) that should make the damage taken to life roughly....zero. There is no denying, however, that life after kill is often overlooked and very helpful. I suppose a lot of this would depend on whether the OP is even building an ES sorc, his other gear selections, and his leveling options/playstyle.

[Leohappy]

i've been playing es/light sorcs for years now, and i can that enigma is definitely better armor than coh

basically the only reason to use coh over enigma, is resistances
but, while resistances are a big deal, they can still be maxed in hell via other equipment

what is more important, is excellent bonuses found on enigma:

2 skill: same as found on coh - great stuff
huge strength bonus: you only need to add about 30 str to be able to wear monarch shields (in order to wear monarch with a coh, you need to add about 40 points more, so total is something like 70str added)
frw: makes trips to town much faster - my old sorc with coh is a snail when it comes to walk speed
mf: not much to say here, enigma beats coh easily here; another great addition to already great armor
+14 to life after kill: typed in bold, simply because it's often overlooked, but INCREDIBLY powerful mod found on enigma - essentially, it gives life leech to your sorc, making her far more durable in the field (speed and quality of gameplay is improved, since the need to use potions is all but eliminated)
increase maximum life by 5%: granted, 5% isn't much, but it's just another useful thing we get from enigma and can't be found on coh


basically, all stats found on coh are weaker than those on enigma (except resist ofcourse), and the extra ones are useless to casters (life leech, % dmg to demon/undeads)

round up: if you need massive resistances take coh. if you can get them elsewhere (anni, torch, mara, hoto, charms, spirit,...) then take enigma instead

[prion]

Enigma compared to Skullder's or Vipermagi gives you an extra +2 teleport

[mephiztophelez]

eargh. enigma has no place on a sorc imho.

for a PvM es sosa, try a glad's bane/gerkes combo. you will be immortal vs anything but mana-burn.

for a power build: viper (sol/um/whatever) is just godly.

[Leohappy]

for a PvM es sosa, try a glad's bane/gerkes combo. you will be immortal vs anything but mana-burn.why bother with this? decent es sorc is already all but immortal, so it's better to improve on other factors


for a power build: viper (sol/um/whatever) is just godly.

i think vipers are more useful to pvp sorc, but for pvm i'd go with coh or enigma any day

[mephiztophelez]

why bother with this? decent es sorc is already all but immortal, so it's better to improve on other factors
the iDR & mDR on gbane/gerkes is applied after the ES is factored, meaning it's going to take an INSANE hit to ding your life-bulb at all.

i think vipers are more useful to pvp sorc, but for pvm i'd go with coh or enigma any day
i still rekon enigma on a sorc is just plain dupetastically dumb. other armours offer so much more.

[ShazamLies]

For my old es-light pvp build I searched for any armor to replace Enigma... and I couldn't...

Frostburns
2x Sojs
Arachnids (Was hoping to find a gg 10fcr belt but no luck)
Dual Spirits
2/20fcr/20str circlet
Treks
2/17fcr str, mana amulet

I don't need any more fcr or life really. What else would you put there? I was thinking of a 4x Sur armor with 24 fhr, but I'm going to miss those +2 skills on Enigma. For pvp mdr and pdr aren't really worth it IMO, my life will almost never die before my mana (exceptions such as ow/poison), so I don't see a reason why I would ever bother with viper/gladbane. As far as I can see, Enigma's str bonus and +2 skills can't be beat when I don't need resistances (95% es) or life.

[Leohappy]

the iDR & mDR on gbane/gerkes is applied after the ES is factored, meaning it's going to take an INSANE hit to ding your life-bulb at all.i'm already taking very little damage and can leech back almost all through +14 lak found on enigma

gladiators bane has really poors stats for everything but perhaps 95es pvp sorc
gerkes is in the same boat


i still rekon enigma on a sorc is just plain dupetastically dumb. other armours offer so much more.

so far, you haven't really produced any convincing proof for this statement

[ShazamLies]

Although now that I think about it... gladbane might be really helpful vs. those bleeders (like ww sins). The mdr/pdr can negate a wwsin's damage... Does this mean at 1 life the sorc can't die till mana runs out? Or does the poison hit kill the ES sorc. I've survived at 1 life vs. multiple hits of poison before, but mebe it was cuz i was rep lifing, I don't know.