Barb vs hammer thoughts [Archive] - Diablo 3 & Diablo 2 Forums

xxxkillerxxx

28-08-2007, 19:57

Since alot of people have obsolete crapbarbs with str/dex added it is time to do something useful with them while you rebuild with pure vita. Why not use them to kill hammers? While pure vita barbs with huge ar and life generally are more effective, the added str/dex can open up for some interesting and entertaining alternatives that allows you to pk some hammers much faster and the build is a backup anyway so don't whine.

Since you only duel hammerdins you'll never need more than 5.5k life (to tank 3 hammers from anyone) so charms will be cheap. I use 13-14max/ar gcs and max/ar/frw but just use whatever max/ar and ar charms you can get hold of. Try to get as much frw from charms as possible without cutting back on dmg/ar.

Basically what you want to do is to have the highest damage output possible so feel free to slap on dual griefs and fort (good thing runewords are free after reset). Use guillaumes ed/ias or arreats if you need the str/dex/ar. Hsarus belt+boots and ravens+hl are usually the best option vs run-of-the-mill hammers and dracs are obvious unless you like the slow+kb on clegs. Keep widow on switch since you don't need high bo (yes it's basically useless alot of the time but doesn't hurt in any way). Depending on how many points you wasted in str/dex you might be able to use shael/um/nef widow, angelics+widow etc etc. Use your brain. When I think of it harmony could work instead of widow, vigor sure would help you out of tight situations.

As much as I hate fort the damage it adds to dual grief barbs is ridiculous. The -50% psn res from griefs invites to going mass poison but it doesn't work vs anyone good (cleansing/antidote prebuf pretty much nullifies it). However, bramble+trangs gloves and dual deaths web on switch is hilarious vs alot of people. If they dont use cleansing they lose over 2k life pretty fast in hell difficulty, and if they dont have enough stacked res to counter -110 from switch they die even faster hehe. Of course this would be far more effective vs other chars but they're not as hard as pallies in the first place.

Vs good (not decent, good) hammers you'll often have to switch to enigma. Use guillaumes and keep demon limb and cta/doom on switch for enchant and hf kill/better life (so they cant kill you with base foh or hoto-smite) and apply normal tele/ww tactics. This is where your main barb is better most of the time since he can tank 4 hammers instead of 3, but on the flip side you have better damage and doom on switch here. Alot of older builds also have more leap and speed which helps.

Anyway the point of this build is to work around the demoralizing normal state where you can punish hammers forever and they still dont die, while minimizing the disadvantage with fort (mobility). Watch out for "wtf" and similar when people die in 2 wws hehe. It's also good for beginners who rely on fort+widow since you dont have to waste stash space on real barb and noone can say using fort once in a while isn't good fun :)

inanefedaykin

28-08-2007, 20:20

So you're trying to get Olba banned when he points out everything that's wrong with your post. You lack subtlety.

xxxkillerxxx

28-08-2007, 20:34

So you're trying to get Olba banned when he points out everything that's wrong with your post. You lack subtlety.

Uh. I dont really follow your point here but I assure you everything works exactly as specified. I know since I use it.

mainaman

28-08-2007, 21:06

indeed the calculations indicate that grief/grief+ fortitude does more dmg after frame 8, which means you will be hitting hammerdins harder than with grief/beast, the dmg outout is not too high though something like 1.5k combned

xxxkillerxxx

28-08-2007, 21:12

indeed the calculations indicate that grief/grief+ fortitude does more dmg after frame 8, which means you will be hitting hammerdins harder than with grief/beast.

Of course, much harder. No matter if you're used to enigma or have played grief+beast fort vs hammers in the past you'll notice a significant difference with this setup. Did I mention all equipment is nearly free? :)

Ce Olba

29-08-2007, 00:51

Since alot of people have obsolete crapbarbs with str/dex added it is time to do something useful with them while you rebuild with pure vita. Why not use them to kill hammers? While pure vita barbs with huge ar and life generally are more effective, the added str/dex can open up for some interesting and entertaining alternatives that allows you to pk some hammers much faster and the build is a backup anyway so don't whine.

Let me point out a few things:
1. Pure Vita BvCs have less AR than ones built with points to dex.
2. With a perfect stats setup, the actual difference in the lifepoints between the two statsetups is about 573.6 life. Now, a lvl 99 barbarian with 660 life from charms and a normal bvc pubsetup will have 6735 life. That means that you are at 7309 life. Now, the increase is 8.5%.

Since you only duel hammerdins you'll never need more than 5.5k life (to tank 3 hammers from anyone)

3 hammers from anyone? How about old-skool, pure-damage hammerdins? They deal 2890 per hit, meaning your barb is dead in 2 hits. Actually, 5.5k life can withstand 3x10.8k hits. Quite standard. However, anyone with more damage and you are up for 2 hits and dead.

so charms will be cheap. I use 13-14max/ar gcs and max/ar/frw but just use whatever max/ar and ar charms you can get hold of. Try to get as much frw from charms as possible without cutting back on dmg/ar.

Excuse me Prince Charming, but with no +life from your charms, you are looking at 5731 life at lvl 99 with a pure vitality build. Oh wait, Angelics! That means, with lvl 99 and a pure vita build, you got yourself 6006 life. And that's PURE VITALITY! Want to hear the number with 63/47? Oh wait, that number is 5432. So, where is your 5.5k life now? Oh, and you can withstand 3 hits from anyone doing 10650 damage or less.

When I think of it harmony could work instead of widow, vigor sure would help you out of tight situations.

Then how about you use those brains of yours and realize that any half-assed Hammerdin won't be hit by a regular arrow. And that's the difference between Harmony and Widowmaker. Widowmaker has Guided Arrow, Harmony doesn't.

As much as I hate fort the damage it adds to dual grief barbs is ridiculous. The -50% psn res from griefs invites to going mass poison but it doesn't work vs anyone good (cleansing/antidote prebuf pretty much nullifies it). However, bramble+trangs gloves and dual deaths web on switch is hilarious vs alot of people. If they dont use cleansing they lose over 2k life pretty fast in hell difficulty, and if they dont have enough stacked res to counter -110 from switch they die even faster hehe. Of course this would be far more effective vs other chars but they're not as hard as pallies in the first place.

How about you use those brains of yours again and think about how little damage 37x290's would add with Venom in play. Oh right, that's 377 damage. For 37 charms with ONLY POISON! Hah!

Use guillaumes and keep demon limb and cta/doom on switch for enchant

Use those brains of yours for a third time and realize that lvl 23 Enchant has a duration of 672 seconds. That's 11 minutes. Now, tell me, what kind of a duel lasts for over 11 minutes?

It's also good for beginners who rely on fort+widow since you dont have to waste stash space on real barb and noone can say using fort once in a while isn't good fun :)

Use those brains of yours again and realize that Fortitude adds a significant boost to your damage. Actually, it adds 39.2% damage. That's quite a lot! So what exactly about having 40% more damage is "waste"? Yes, there is a simple strategy to beat Fortitude Barbarians, but so far I've never seen anyone use it. So why make such a huge fuss about it being "waste"?

xxxkillerxxx

29-08-2007, 01:14

Let me point out a few things:
1. Pure Vita BvCs have less AR than ones built with points to dex.
2. With a perfect stats setup, the actual difference in the lifepoints between the two statsetups is about 573.6 life. Now, a lvl 99 barbarian with 660 life from charms and a normal bvc pubsetup will have 6735 life. That means that you are at 7309 life. Now, the increase is 8.5%.

1. Link to where I said otherwise?
2. I have 8.6k life vs hammers. Next?

3 hammers from anyone? How about old-skool, pure-damage hammerdins? They deal 2890 per hit, meaning your barb is dead in 2 hits. Actually, 5.5k life can withstand 3x10.8k hits. Quite standard. However, anyone with more damage and you are up for 2 hits and dead.

5.5k life tanks 3x 16k dmg hammers before dying. Let me know when you've found a pvp hammerdin with 17k damage or better yet, theorycraft up what such a pvp hammerdin would use. You're used to that.

Excuse me Prince Charming, but with no +life from your charms, you are looking at 5731 life at lvl 99 with a pure vitality build. Oh wait, Angelics! That means, with lvl 99 and a pure vita build, you got yourself 6006 life. And that's PURE VITALITY! Want to hear the number with 63/47? Oh wait, that number is 5432. So, where is your 5.5k life now? Oh, and you can withstand 3 hits from anyone doing 10650 damage or less.

Why these aggressive insults? I suggest you read Halciet's topic again, apparently you didn't get it.
Just use your brain and get enough life to tank 3 hammers from whatever hdin you're dueling. Your 5.4k life barb can still tank 3 x 16k hammers before dying.

Then how about you use those brains of yours and realize that any half-assed Hammerdin won't be hit by a regular arrow. And that's the difference between Harmony and Widowmaker. Widowmaker has Guided Arrow, Harmony doesn't.

Why this aggressive stance? I suggest you read Halciet's topic again, apparently you didn't get it.
No good hammerdin will get bothered by widow either. I clearly wrote that. Only newbies think they duel good people when widow works. It's easy to namelock a hammerdin and hit them with throw or regular arrows, I do it all the time so again reality > your theories.

How about you use those brains of yours again and think about how little damage 37x290's would add with Venom in play. Oh right, that's 377 damage. For 37 charms with ONLY POISON! Hah!

Link to where I said you should trigger venom. As usual you dont bother reading so why argue?

Use those brains of yours for a third time and realize that lvl 23 Enchant has a duration of 672 seconds. That's 11 minutes. Now, tell me, what kind of a duel lasts for over 11 minutes?

Why this aggressive stance? I suggest you read Halciet's topic again, apparently you didn't get it.
And your point is? Mine was obviously that it's annoying to run back and forth to stash so you might as well keep limb on switch since you dont need life. Yours?

Use those brains of yours again and realize that Fortitude adds a significant boost to your damage. Actually, it adds 39.2% damage. That's quite a lot! So what exactly about having 40% more damage is "waste"? Yes, there is a simple strategy to beat Fortitude Barbarians, but so far I've never seen anyone use it. So why make such a huge fuss about it being "waste"?
Why this aggressive stance? I suggest you read Halciet's topic again, apparently you didn't get it.

You never dueled anyone good, I can beat fortitude barbarians with one hand tied behind my back with hammer and smiter and I'm a barb player lol. Two simple questions that comes to mind are:
What's this "simple" strategy and why haven't you seen anyone using it if it's so simple lol?

I recall that I told you to stop trying to calculate things since you're really horrible at it. Fortitude does not add 40% more damage than enigma. Especially not on your inferior grief+beast barb.

Ce Olba

29-08-2007, 01:31

1. Link to where I said otherwise?
2. I have 8.6k life vs hammers. Next?

1. You spoke of "huge AR" in favor of the pure vita barb when comparing it to the str/dex build. It's the same as saying "it has more/enough ar".

2. Nice, how much time do you spend prebuffing?

5.5k life tanks 3x 16k dmg hammers before dying. Let me know when you've found a pvp hammerdin with 17k damage or better yet, theorycraft up what such a pvp hammerdin would use. You're used to that.

I've seen 17k damage hammerdins. They were quite popular about a year ago, before Spirit-based barbarians became so popular.

5.5k life barely tanks 2 hits from 16 000 damage. 16 000 * 0.17. That gives you 2720, right? That means they only need to actually have 16176 damage to kill you in 2 hits.

Point is, you don't take "3 hits from any hammerdin".

Why these aggressive insults? I suggest you read Halciet's topic again, apparently you didn't get it.

They aren't aggressive, I'm only using the same form of words you yourself used.

Just use your brain and get enough life to tank 3 hammers from whatever hdin you're dueling. Your 5.4k life barb can still tank 3 x 16k hammers before dying.

Exactly what in 8160 damage sounds like 5400 life lost to you?

Why this aggressive stance? I suggest you read Halciet's topic again, apparently you didn't get it.

Again, I'm only using your own words.

No good hammerdin will get bothered by widow either. I clearly wrote that. Only newbies think they duel good people when widow works. It's easy to namelock a hammerdin and hit them with throw or regular arrows, I do it all the time so again reality > your theories.

So, when was the last time you hit a desynching hammerdins several times with a normal arrow that goes in a linear, straight path?

Link to where I said you should trigger venom. As usual you dont bother reading so why argue?

You're using Griefs and suggesting the usage of Venom. Swap your weapons while your arrows are still mid-air and they can trigger your CtC Venom.

Why this aggressive stance? I suggest you read Halciet's topic again, apparently you didn't get it.

Read post #1, lines 13 and 14.

And your point is? Mine was obviously that it's annoying to run back and forth to stash so you might as well keep limb on switch since you dont need life. Yours?

My point was that it's pointless to have Demonlimb on your swap since you're already using prebuff yourself. A quarter of a second cannot really piss someone off, can it?

You never dueled anyone good, I can beat fortitude barbarians with one hand tied behind my back with hammer and smiter and I'm a barb player lol. Two simple questions that comes to mind are:
What's this "simple" strategy and why haven't you seen anyone using it if it's so simple lol?

Let's see. I've never dueled anyone good? Oh wait, I've just about dueled the best players on Europe realm. And yes, I got beaten quite badly, but that's not a part of the argument.

And the simple strategy is to take advantage of the lack of teleport and trap the barbarian in a field of hammers so that wherever he goes, he is bound to be hit by hammers.

I recall that I told you to stop trying to calculate things since you're really horrible at it. Fortitude does not add 40% more damage than enigma. Especially not on your inferior grief+beast barb.

Fortitude adds 40% damage to my BvC. And I don't suck at calculating stuff, you do. If you don't realize that it's more or less 40%, you have some issues.

(TotalED%+FortitudeED%)/TotalED%= Increase%. So simple.

So, watch me:

765% ED with pubsetup. Arreat's adds 20%, taking away Enigma makes that -49%. Now, adding Fortitude makes that +251%. So we get this:
(765+251)/765=
1016/765=
0.32810458%

Yeah, I might've hastily put in a wrong number, but it's only 6.2% off.

xxxkillerxxx

29-08-2007, 01:47

Since you never bother to read my posts I wont even worthy your pathetic theories and blabbering with an answer this time. You're just whining cause I proved you wrong countless times and you're still worse at math than I was at age ten.

Frankly I suspect the reason you're upset is because the barb posted here is more effective than yours vs hammerdins, and my main barb is more effective than yours vs everything. You're just mad cause you didn't think of it first. 25k poison damage can be amazing btw but how could you know, you never tried it as usual lol.

You can't deny that this build got everything, superior dmg/speed/effectiveness and ease-of-use while still tanking the same amounts of hammers as your barb lol. To tank 4 hammers you need to build a real barb like my pure vita so yours wont cut it anyway :)

With your attitude of disregarding anything new (that doesn't come from this mcm or mojortos) you'll never be good at this game. Just a hint :)

Pidol

29-08-2007, 02:44

mainaman

29-08-2007, 02:54

hdins this, hdins that
just get your bnec or eledru and 50/50 a hdin instead of hoping to kill one

bnecs and eles are on par with hdins vs each other, just do that
instead of wasting like 2-5 minutes of cat n mouse with bvhi dare say nec shatters hammerdins if played right, and well built and played hammerdin can come on top of a druid imo.

chileno

29-08-2007, 03:01

hdins this, hdins that
just get your bnec or eledru and 50/50 a hdin instead of hoping to kill one

bnecs and eles are on par with hdins vs each other, just do that
instead of wasting like 2-5 minutes of cat n mouse with bvh

I personally have a really fun time in BvH playing either character. Win or not it's just a fun duel to have.

xxxkillerxxx

29-08-2007, 03:48

hdins this, hdins that
just get your bnec or eledru and 50/50 a hdin instead of hoping to kill one

bnecs and eles are on par with hdins vs each other, just do that
instead of wasting like 2-5 minutes of cat n mouse with bvh

I do better vs top hdins with barb than with nec. I'm not bad on nec either.

xxxkillerxxx

29-08-2007, 03:49

I personally have a really fun time in BvH playing either character. Win or not it's just a fun duel to have.

Try this build for improved fun factor. Amazing how fast you can kill some hdins hehe.

Barloc

29-08-2007, 04:48

Since alot of people have obsolete crapbarbs with str/dex added it is time to do something useful with them while you rebuild with pure vita. Why not use them to kill hammers? While pure vita barbs with huge ar and life generally are more effective, the added str/dex can open up for some interesting and entertaining alternatives that allows you to pk some hammers much faster and the build is a backup anyway so don't whine.

Since you only duel hammerdins you'll never need more than 5.5k life (to tank 3 hammers from anyone) so charms will be cheap. I use 13-14max/ar gcs and max/ar/frw but just use whatever max/ar and ar charms you can get hold of. Try to get as much frw from charms as possible without cutting back on dmg/ar.

Basically what you want to do is to have the highest damage output possible so feel free to slap on dual griefs and fort (good thing runewords are free after reset). Use guillaumes ed/ias or arreats if you need the str/dex/ar. Hsarus belt+boots and ravens+hl are usually the best option vs run-of-the-mill hammers and dracs are obvious unless you like the slow+kb on clegs. Keep widow on switch since you don't need high bo (yes it's basically useless alot of the time but doesn't hurt in any way). Depending on how many points you wasted in str/dex you might be able to use shael/um/nef widow, angelics+widow etc etc. Use your brain. When I think of it harmony could work instead of widow, vigor sure would help you out of tight situations.

As much as I hate fort the damage it adds to dual grief barbs is ridiculous. The -50% psn res from griefs invites to going mass poison but it doesn't work vs anyone good (cleansing/antidote prebuf pretty much nullifies it). However, bramble+trangs gloves and dual deaths web on switch is hilarious vs alot of people. If they dont use cleansing they lose over 2k life pretty fast in hell difficulty, and if they dont have enough stacked res to counter -110 from switch they die even faster hehe. Of course this would be far more effective vs other chars but they're not as hard as pallies in the first place.

This is a BvB with extra items in stash. Nothing really new.

Vs good (not decent, good) hammers you'll often have to switch to enigma. Use guillaumes and keep demon limb and cta/doom on switch for enchant and hf kill/better life (so they cant kill you with base foh or hoto-smite) and apply normal tele/ww tactics. This is where your main barb is better most of the time since he can tank 4 hammers instead of 3, but on the flip side you have better damage and doom on switch here. Alot of older builds also have more leap and speed which helps.

Anyway the point of this build is to work around the demoralizing normal state where you can punish hammers forever and they still dont die, while minimizing the disadvantage with fort (mobility). Watch out for "wtf" and similar when people die in 2 wws hehe. It's also good for beginners who rely on fort+widow since you dont have to waste stash space on real barb and noone can say using fort once in a while isn't good fun :)

Now it's more BvA.

How much more damage does Grief/Grief/Fort do over Grief/Beast/Fort, as the damage of either is multiplied by Forti's ED? I mean if its not by alot, I see no reason to rebuild another one of the.....
...obsolete crapbarbs

camui

29-08-2007, 05:07

lol, both of you are annoying with the rants

mainaman

29-08-2007, 07:47

How much more damage does Grief/Grief/Fort do over Grief/Beast/Fort, as the damage of either is multiplied by Forti's ED? I mean if its not by alot, I see no reason to rebuild another one of the.....depending on your charm set up grif/grief+ fortitude can give significant dmg out put in later frames compared to grief/beast .the total dmg over 24 frames with 30x3/20/20 is greater by 10k, needess to say thats huge

kykle

29-08-2007, 08:36

xxxkillerxxx

29-08-2007, 11:02

This is a BvB with extra items in stash. Nothing really new.

Now it's more BvA.

How much more damage does Grief/Grief/Fort do over Grief/Beast/Fort, as the damage of either is multiplied by Forti's ED? I mean if its not by alot, I see no reason to rebuild another one of the.....

Point is to regear old chars that you dont use with free gear. This way you wont have to infect stash on your real barb with newbie gear like fort/widow or waste points in str/dex. Since you only need 5.5k life you are also able to use interesting charms you wouldn't want to use otherwise (frw to decrease disadvantage of fort is king).

The total damage output is increased by ~15% compared to grief+beast. You also get the bonus of interrupting the hammer with nearly every hit which won't happen with beast. This is extremely useful.

Anyone who tries grief+grief will immediately see the superiority over grief+beast.

jaxz

29-08-2007, 11:11

I like Griefz/griefz ^^, as my primary weapons.

mmm, but I also like to sue fort + coa versus smiters^^ Then I would use Griefz/beastz^^, 1v1 though.

xxxkillerxxx

29-08-2007, 11:13

ive got a good way to settle this. ranting to strangers on forums doesnt settle anything and annoys everyone else who is trying to have a civil debate.
1)make your respective character preferences.
2)find a good hdin
3)ft5 a few times each
4)argument solved

Settle what? That this setup is superior to grief+beast+fort+life charms? There is nothing to debate, the numbers speak for themselves. This barb has everything a grief/beast barb has + more damage and mobility. Did I mention how useful extra frw is?

Your idea wouldn't work since player skills differ. I am sure Ce Olba can elaborate more on that point. What is it with people and their inability/unwillingness to try things themselves? Noone who tries this setup will go back to grief+beast.

Frankly I'm struck by the general attitude of disregarding everything that is new/doesn't fit the established norm quite alot of people show here. How could you ever evolve or get good if you insist on using builds and strategies that worked 2 years ago? In this case you wont't even have to be an experienced barbplayer with a feeling for what might work, nor try it out in-game. The numbers are clear. I rest my case.

xxxkillerxxx

29-08-2007, 11:14

I like Griefz/griefz ^^, as my primary weapons.

mmm, but I also like to sue fort + coa versus smiters^^ Then I would use Griefz/beastz^^, 1v1 though.

I like grief/beast as I zerk alot. The difference is insignificant with enigma though, but with fort grief/grief is vastly superior.

xxxkillerxxx

29-08-2007, 11:18

depending on your charm set up grif/grief+ fortitude can give significant dmg out put in later frames compared to grief/beast .the total dmg over 24 frames with 30x3/20/20 is greater by 10k, needess to say thats huge

You still sound like you include the 4:th frame in this. It's pointless since you'll always be past frame 4 when hitting hammerdins, thus grief+grief is better already from the start and keeps the advantage linearly.

ShazamLies

29-08-2007, 11:26

Nitpicking commence! :jig:

Adding dex doesn't really help your AR so much. I think it adds something like 1 ar per dex pt invested... really cruddy even when "multiplied" by other sources. (difference in AR will come from gear not really your stat layout)

Harmony would be useful as a running bow, but hitting with it is harder... Whereas with a throw weapon you can have 1 pt in a mastery and boost the AR, shooting a harmony bow significantly reduces your AR because nothing boosts it. (not to mention horrible ias)

The point of this build is to kick and it suprise ppl/kill some pubbies etc. Whats the big hoo-ah?

(For fun you should hostile one of those lame town druids/amazons who cast valks/oaks/grizzlies outside of town and frenzy off of them. And for those of you who are too putoff to put 1pt in frenzy, use one fury on switch)

jaxz

29-08-2007, 12:15

depending on your charm set up grif/grief+ fortitude can give significant dmg out put in later frames compared to grief/beast .the total dmg over 24 frames with 30x3/20/20 is greater by 10k, needess to say thats hugeI think you do not generally attempt to tri-ww a hdin. That is madness. Unless he is already low in life while you're still high, and he still namelocks you more, then do a quick simple DoD clock wise would be good. Kills instantly, though you have risk to getting hit, but usually won't. You want to catch him nl you or chargeed across screen while you had already started ww'ing, not before. And with that, even with mcm's tables, ww should have passed the 12th frame mark. Use a stop watch and time yourself. Or ask your friend to help you test. After testing with my friends, it is certain that griefz/griefz even without fort on, has more damage than griefz/beastz. I yet to fight a godly bvc using beast in my realm yet with my bvc who uses dual griefz. But I shouldn't worry as I need to acquire a set of stee lifers before setting off to look for duels, as I am using a half inventory of 5res/19 lifes.

I like grief/beast as I zerk alot. The difference is insignificant with enigma though, but with fort grief/grief is vastly superior. Killer question. Do you still maintain the coa on your head with fort grief/grief? Or do you use Grief/beast with enigma/coa on your vita barb.

xxxkillerxxx

29-08-2007, 15:39

I think you do not generally attempt to tri-ww a hdin. That is madness. Unless he is already low in life while you're still high, and he still namelocks you more, then do a quick simple DoD clock wise would be good. Kills instantly, though you have risk to getting hit, but usually won't. You want to catch him nl you or chargeed across screen while you had already started ww'ing, not before. And with that, even with mcm's tables, ww should have passed the 12th frame mark. Use a stop watch and time yourself. Or ask your friend to help you test. After testing with my friends, it is certain that griefz/griefz even without fort on, has more damage than griefz/beastz. I yet to fight a godly bvc using beast in my realm yet with my bvc who uses dual griefz. But I shouldn't worry as I need to acquire a set of stee lifers before setting off to look for duels, as I am using a half inventory of 5res/19 lifes.

Killer question. Do you still maintain the coa on your head with fort grief/grief? Or do you use Grief/beast with enigma/coa on your vita barb.

I use grief/beast on my vita barb, mainly because i zerk alot. If you found grief/grief significantly better dmg-wise with enigma, imagine with fort hehe :)

mainaman

29-08-2007, 16:15

You still sound like you include the 4:th frame in this. It's pointless since you'll always be past frame 4 when hitting hammerdins, thus grief+grief is better already from the start and keeps the advantage linearly.actually thats only the 24th frame, my bad .
over frames8 to 24 the diff in dmg is 60k t.t

Ce Olba

29-08-2007, 16:17

Nitpicking commence! :jig:

Adding dex doesn't really help your AR so much. I think it adds something like 1 ar per dex pt invested... really cruddy even when "multiplied" by other sources. (difference in AR will come from gear not really your stat layout)

Actually, it's 5 ar per point in Dex. Now, a regular BvC has 27 more Dex than a pure vita one. That means 135 more AR. Now, multiply that by 6.91% for all the +ar% that you get from lvl 9 Fanatiscm and lvl 30 Mastery and lvl 30 Whirlwind. That totals 932.85 more AR. I know, it's not much, actually, it's around a 10% increase in your AR. However, that is not the point. The point is that they have more AR.

mainaman

29-08-2007, 16:21

I think you do not generally attempt to tri-ww a hdin. That is madness. Unless he is already low in life while you're still high, and he still namelocks you more, then do a quick simple DoD clock wise would be good. Kills instantly, though you have risk to getting hit, but usually won't. You want to catch him nl you or chargeed across screen while you had already started ww'ing, not before. And with that, even with mcm's tables, ww should have passed the 12th frame mark. Use a stop watch and time yourself. Or ask your friend to help you test. After testing with my friends, it is certain that griefz/griefz even without fort on, has more damage than griefz/beastz. I yet to fight a godly bvc using beast in my realm yet with my bvc who uses dual griefz. But I shouldn't worry as I need to acquire a set of stee lifers before setting off to look for duels, as I am using a half inventory of 5res/19 lifes.

Killer question. Do you still maintain the coa on your head with fort grief/grief? Or do you use Grief/beast with enigma/coa on your vita barb.
I don't remember syaing I 3 ww hammerdins? all i need to do is get in their pths and buff a ww there , or even better (altho riskier) just tele on them while they are charging thats the most dmging imo
By the way how do you know how many frames you will pass while ww-ing? no table can calculate that all that matters is how long you will be in contact with the oponent while wwing

xxxkillerxxx

29-08-2007, 16:34

Actually, it's 5 ar per point in Dex. Now, a regular BvC has 27 more Dex than a pure vita one. That means 135 more AR. Now, multiply that by 6.91% for all the +ar% that you get from lvl 9 Fanatiscm and lvl 30 Mastery and lvl 30 Whirlwind. That totals 932.85 more AR. I know, it's not much, actually, it's around a 10% increase in your AR. However, that is not the point. The point is that they have more AR.

You were the one who brought this irrelevant blabbering up in the first place because you do not read my posts. Either start reading carefully or stop infecting my topic with your ignorance.

As I sidenote my main barb has 36k ar vs hammerdins. Although I did not make any comparision myself (you did since you dont read my posts) this barb will have less are because he's dualwielding grief and most likely gets less ar from charms than a real barb with 33x 20 ar scs.

This is not even relevant though so I don't understand why you even bring it up.

xxxkillerxxx

29-08-2007, 16:35

jaxz

29-08-2007, 16:56

I don't remember syaing I 3 ww hammerdins? all i need to do is get in their psth and buff a ww there , or even better (altho riskier) just tele on them while they are charging thats the most dmging imo
By the way how do you know how many frames you will pass while ww-ing? no table can calculate that all that matters is how long you will be in contact with the oponent while wwingHi Sorry, I had assumed that you were talking about short wws. Okay, I see your point now. Maybe for now, as what I think, there are its pro's and cons to either griefz/beastz or griefz/griefz setup, however I do notice a slightly damage increase ever since I took up killer's challenge! I think I am be able to destroy bone armours faster than before, and I notice more fhr animation occuring on those necs than when I dueled then with griefz/beastz! I think, how about giving it a try, before flaming killer? I know probably it's easier for me because I had a bva somewhere, so I do not need the strength on beastz to wear my coa before pub stomping with it.

But if you claim for for bvc vs bvc, using griefz/beastz might be better due to the higher ar from fanatism, then I don't know. I had not test this setup with the best bvcs in my realm yet. Though the most frequently seen bvc in my realm now is Savage, and NLX (not mcm, who somehow disappeared from pub games.), I may need to get a set of steel/vits charms instead of 32020s before I can say for sure. I am not saying Savage is the best lest someone flames about this, but the truth and fact is they are the barbs having the highest kill rate I've seen in pub stomping. Savage do die and get raped in pubs against casters before, but he is against odds anyway, and 2 desynching hammerdins can be proven tough for even the best of the best bvc. I am saying, how about give it a try, and later input your feedback, cuz You might never know. Times do change, mcm may have shock the barbarian world but doesnt mean no one can learn from him and surpass him. But at least, owing to his magnanimity for sharing, he helped to open the door to research of new ways faster.

That's all I have got to say, but do try it. ^_ .... But, IF, even after creating a new barb just to test and you say you disagree, then I have got nothing more to say. But then you couldn't say it is a waste of time because as a barb fanatic/activist, for it is alright to spent time researching. I used to research too. If you search my post history in cc-comp, you can locate all my arguments against mcm. Deadeye who is using this forum and even had his very own bvc guided posted somewhere in the web, can vouch for this. I too, read Deadeye's and mcm's guides, and watch mcm videos, and design my barb the way he did, in the end I aren't designing my build according to his, but I am not complaining it is a waste of time, am I?

xxxkillerxxx

29-08-2007, 17:43

Hi Sorry, I had assumed that you were talking about short wws. Okay, I see your point now. Maybe for now, as what I think, there are its pro's and cons to either griefz/beastz or griefz/griefz setup, however I do notice a slightly damage increase ever since I took up killer's challenge! I think I am be able to destroy bone armours faster than before, and I notice more fhr animation occuring on those necs than when I dueled then with griefz/beastz! I think, how about giving it a try, before flaming killer? I know probably it's easier for me because I had a bva somewhere, so I do not need the strength on beastz to wear my coa before pub stomping with it.

But if you claim for for bvc vs bvc, using griefz/beastz might be better due to the higher ar from fanatism, then I don't know. I had not test this setup with the best bvcs in my realm yet. Though the most frequently seen bvc in my realm now is Savage, and NLX (not mcm, who somehow disappeared from pub games.), I may need to get a set of steel/vits charms instead of 32020s before I can say for sure. I am not saying Savage is the best lest someone flames about this, but the truth and fact is they are the barbs having the highest kill rate I've seen in pub stomping. Savage do die and get raped in pubs against casters before, but he is against odds anyway, and 2 desynching hammerdins can be proven tough for even the best of the best bvc. I am saying, how about give it a try, and later input your feedback, cuz You might never know. Times do change, mcm may have shock the barbarian world but doesnt mean no one can learn from him and surpass him. But at least, owing to his magnanimity for sharing, he helped to open the door to research of new ways faster.

That's all I have got to say, but do try it. ^_ .... But, IF, even after creating a new barb just to test and you say you disagree, then I have got nothing more to say. But then you couldn't say it is a waste of time because as a barb fanatic/activist, for it is alright to spent time researching. I used to research too. If you search my post history in cc-comp, you can locate all my arguments against mcm. Deadeye who is using this forum and even had his very own bvc guided posted somewhere in the web, can vouch for this. I too, read Deadeye's and mcm's guides, and watch mcm videos, and design my barb the way he did, in the end I aren't designing my build according to his, but I am not complaining it is a waste of time, am I?

I think mainaman is one of the few who doesn't disagree with me (probably just a misunderstanding) but other than that I condone this post :)

If you lack str you can always use 08 gaze to get dr with grief+grief btw. With shael and the 10% fhr from verdungos you get 30% vs smiters/druids and nice leech vs minions hehe.

Halciet

29-08-2007, 17:52

Hey wow! You two are doing a great job of totally ignoring everything I have said. You can't seem to have a conversation without lacing it with some kind of aggressive undertone, or otherwise resulting to outright insults.

But you know what, I said we weren't going to do this anymore. So, I hope each of you enjoy your two days off.

-Hal

jaxz

29-08-2007, 17:56

I think mainaman is one of the few who doesn't disagree with me (probably just a misunderstanding) but other than that I condone this post :)

If you lack str you can always use 08 gaze to get dr with grief+grief btw. With shael and the 10% fhr from verdungos you get 30% vs smiters/druids and nice leech vs minions hehe.Ahh isee, HAhaha

And Btw, Thanks for the tip! Yea leech is the druid killer.

De4dEyE

29-08-2007, 18:17

Hmm guess I'll try this out o_o

The only reason I went str/dex my own barb [and really I see no other reason] is so I could have the option of killing the crap out of hdins a bit easier with the addition of fort. I should go find another grief, hm

mainaman

29-08-2007, 18:30

Ahh isee, HAhaha

And Btw, Thanks for the tip! Yea leech is the druid killer.you can easily get something like 45 ll only from axes and belt(2xbotd+SOE) slap a gaze on and you are at what 53 ll, now add 2 fcr rings with 9 ll each and you are at 71% ll, thats a druid stomper right there.
You can duel them in a different way , which is more risky and takes some patience , here watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EgliSQklxE

inanefedaykin

29-08-2007, 19:38

Second post in the thread was me warning olba he was being baited. Honestly...

jaxz

29-08-2007, 20:31

you can easily get something like 45 ll only from axes and belt(2xbotd+SOE) slap a gaze on and you are at what 53 ll, now add 2 fcr rings with 9 ll each and you are at 71% ll, thats a druid stomper right there.
You can duel them in a different way , which is more risky and takes some patience , here watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EgliSQklxE
Haha, so is that you using gaze/dual ebotdz/leech rings/dracs/soe?

mainaman

29-08-2007, 21:47

Haha, so is that you using gaze/dual ebotdz/leech rings/dracs/soe?no if i used ll set up i'd be getting life back after i killed mionons wouldn't I? this duel is with 0 ll on me

chileno

29-08-2007, 22:06

What reason is there to put dex on a BvC? I can understand some str for a fort switch, but why add any dex?

inanefedaykin

29-08-2007, 23:08

BAs require 59 dex, that should be covered by charms/eq but maybe not. Also, widowmaker requires 146 dex which isn't easy to come by without putting in stats.

chileno

29-08-2007, 23:23

I hel'd my widow so I didn't need any point in dex to use it.

Pidol

29-08-2007, 23:25

BAs require 59 dex, that should be covered by charms/eq but maybe not. Also, widowmaker requires 146 dex which isn't easy to come by without putting in stats.

with equipping BA you can easily get a 15+stat anni and 15+stat torch and wear a rfrost to equip baxes

or you can get perf stat anni and perf stat torch to equip it without care

besides even without wearing rfrost, you get +10 dex from angelics

about widow i dunno bout that

mainaman

29-08-2007, 23:32

What reason is there to put dex on a BvC? I can understand some str for a fort switch, but why add any dex?you need to be able to use widow with angelics since angelics deliver superior performance vs high def oponents such as well built hammerdins , v/t, smiter etc.

I hel'd my widow so I didn't need any point in dex to use it.
hum base dext for widow means you are using
ravens which is not the best jewelry to use especially if you duel v/t or high def hammerdin, even with enchant you get like ~14k ar which is a bit skimpy imo

xxxkillerxxx

01-09-2007, 00:42

What reason is there to put dex on a BvC? I can understand some str for a fort switch, but why add any dex?

There is none. If you desperately want to use widow (117 dex hel'd) just smack on arreats+ravens. You still get 20k+ ar with hsarus vs hammers and if you need to wear coa you can always use tal belt (20dex and 30 mana =)

Widow is a waste of time though, it's usefulness is limited to make life easier vs a few mediocre hammers.

inanefedaykin

01-09-2007, 01:08

Killer, just because you don't know how to use a weapon doesn't mean it's useless. Stop pulling an olba and at least admit that some people's ways of dueling may be just as powerfull as yours.

xxxkillerxxx

01-09-2007, 01:52

Killer, just because you don't know how to use a weapon doesn't mean it's useless. Stop pulling an olba and at least admit that some people's ways of dueling may be just as powerfull as yours.

The moderator in the pvp forum even made a thread recently where he confirmed what all good duelers in my realm established over a year ago.

It's not about dueling style, if widowmaker helps it means you are dueling bad hammerdins who don't know how to play vs barbs. Good ones welcome widowmaker since it means more opportunities for mistakes at the cost of nothing (no experienced duelers consider widow a threat). Anyone who've tried widowmaker vs good hammerdins know what I'm talking about. It's futile and useless. Fun factor yes, viable in real duels, no. Just like fortitude.