Fort on bvcs

[Moritz]

Hi,


I find fort vs hammerdins crap. any other use for frot on a bvc? cuz I would like to go vita as far as possible.
I will play mainly vs casters and in pubs.


Thanks.

[xxxkillerxxx]

Hi,


I find fort vs hammerdins crap. any other use for frot on a bvc? cuz I would like to go vita as far as possible.
I will play mainly vs casters and in pubs.


Thanks.

So far I've only seen people who dont play the game, like Ce Olba, suggest fort. Most others including me think it's horrible. Vs anyting. Really.

[Moritz]

nah I mean luis and mainaman advice to use it too.

I cannot imagine a matchup where I could be bothered to switch in Fort and I doubt that it will bring me the win.
Tell me where you would use it.

[xxxkillerxxx]

nah I mean luis and mainaman advice to use it too.

I cannot imagine a matchup where I could be bothered to switch in Fort and I doubt that it will bring me the win.
Tell me where you would use it.

I dont know those guys but fortitude doesn't work vs hammerdins (see the thread by HappyAssassin), it doesn't work vs smiters (nothing does but again enigma gives you the highest successrate) and it's a complete waste of time vs druids. If you have problems with really defensive recasting druids you can use widow on enigma barb as well.

I _would_ use it for fun. Thats it.

[mainaman]

nah I mean luis and mainaman advice to use it too.

I cannot imagine a matchup where I could be bothered to switch in Fort and I doubt that it will bring me the win.
Tell me where you would use it.NO actually i talked to luis and he advised enigma not only vs 100% desynchers, but vs tele hammers too.
I rebuilt barb long ago to full vita and now i enjoy a healthy 7.5k life no prebuff. vita is superior vs anything really , especially on d2pk where any char gets max possible life , i mean the hammerdins there can have 5K+ life easyly with dr/block set up and @ 16k hammers dmg , i'd take more life and mobility over a bit more dmg.

fortitude can be used vs some windies but imo ll set up>fortitude
it can be used vs some v/t if you can use coa with it but overall its not needed really

[Moritz]

alright I think exactly the same way. I used bvc a lot on open duels (we do open ip duels frequently with a german dueling community) and I never found a use for forti.

Thanks for answers, I just thought that had missed something but apparently I didnt.

[HappyAssassin]

I would say that Fort is VERY effective vs. MEDIOCRE hammerdins, it just doesn't work vs. the ones who know how to deal with it. Of course, you can beat mediocre hammerdins with engima too. The main reason to use fort vs. a desync hammerdin is that it gives sudden humiliating losses. IMO this was the reason that mcm made his "Smash" with a Fort switch in the first place, the goal of the char was to humiliate all the cocky desync hammerdins on the realm where he played, just like he created the smiter "Plops" to humiliate other BvC players. You'll notice that in both cases, the general trend is that hammer > barb and barb > smiter, unless (as in mcm's case) the supposedly inferior class is built specifically to beat its opponent. That Fort build was more of a publicity stunt than a tactic.

[Moritz]

In europe there are no pure desync hammerdins.

I just asked cuz Olba and several other players were suggesting fort over and over whereas I personally find it crappy and I thought I might have missed something, but it's clear now.

I also find that Widow is highly overrated but I guess in some matchup is definitly can be worth using it so I will stat some dex, even if I dislike that fact.


Thanks for your comments.

[mainaman]

In europe there are no pure desync hammerdins.

I just asked cuz Olba and several other players were suggesting fort over and over whereas I personally find it crappy and I thought I might have missed something, but it's clear now.

I also find that Widow is highly overrated but I guess in some matchup is definitly can be worth using it so I will stat some dex, even if I dislike that fact.


Thanks for your comments.when i was dueling on ladder , i wa sused to fortitude , it worked well etc, as soon as i started dueling on d2pk ,where to top nl hammerins play atm, fortitude can't cut it, mobilty vs hammerdins is a must

[SicHalo]

well it depends cuz i still have forti factored in my setup

but its very debatable as if ur mostly pub then no forti is a bit of a waste however priv duels forti is good and it supports widow makers dmg as well.

vs a v/t its ok but even so sometimes mobility of enigma is better than forti in a setup.

I was going throught the same scenario but again is the life u gain worth the sacrifce of the armour?

[De4dEyE]

Hmm I think that fort is pretty good against the majority of hdins. Enigma is needed when you duel against someone who knows how to box you in due to your lack of mobility.

However, it's dependable in the sense that now the hdin can't take dumb risks that he can usually take when you're wearing enigma.

I never understood the fort setup for wind druids, if I needed something drastic like that I'd just go all the way and go for a huge LL setup [which I have on a mule, ha ha].

[akumaxxyz]

fort+widow is good to cheese up v/ts, other than that its not that useful.

[mainaman]

I was going throught the same scenario but again is the life u gain worth the sacrifce of the armour?yes unless you have 2 barbs, one to duel hammerdins and one to duel casters, i prefer max possible life which helps duel necs/druid/sorc ets, to more dmg when i duel hammerdin.

[Summerfun]

I think fort is nice vs 9 out of 10 hammerdins. In pub it seems like no one knows what they are doing, so fort is REALLY good.
But then again, in pub you are most likely to duell more than one person at a time, so if you use fort you will get raped if a necro comes by.

About widowmaker, I say its GREAT vs hammerdins!
Mine is socket with a NEF for KB, its really awsome to get paladins out of desync. Once KB triggers, their desync will end.

[MpLiciT]

i have to disagree.. fort gives 20% more damage, and thats a significant amount considering you dont hit very often vs dins.. and enigma doesnt really help much, alot of the time the good dins will just cast oak and try to stomp you when you hit the end of your ww. all it does is make it easier for you to run away.. big deal~~ a good hdin will be on you all the time even with your enigma, the only good part is that you can tele out of parts were you are getting boxed in, but even still if your good you a. dont let that happpen. b. can still get out of it

i know when i use to play bvc, i always used fort.. and when they were trying to box me in i'd easily be able to get out of it.. and if the dins dont use oak, if your good at dodging lots of hammers close to you in a small area, widow is very good.. you just cannot stay there for to long, shoot once to twice, change your position or else you will get crushed lol. if anyone knows O_oRejoin he was a west ladder din last season, i went 4-5 against him and he didnt use oak, but alot of the time i stayed in one fairly large corner, and i blasted widow until he got near, if your good at reading desynch then you will have alot easier time with dins.. i use to play classic so i can read it pretty easily, and i could get alot of free wws in, as for the KB thing i never got around to doing it, sold my barb for $ ;p, but ya it'd be probally pretty good, especially if you have a hard time reading desyncs.

[xxxkillerxxx]

In europe there are no pure desync hammerdins.

I just asked cuz Olba and several other players were suggesting fort over and over whereas I personally find it crappy and I thought I might have missed something, but it's clear now.

I also find that Widow is highly overrated but I guess in some matchup is definitly can be worth using it so I will stat some dex, even if I dislike that fact.


Thanks for your comments.

Ce Olba is the only one I have seen suggesting fort and he doesn't even play (broke disc or something). Most people who've tried it agree on that it's useless. Me too :)

Never add dexterity for widowmaker. It is a total waste and if you really need to use bow you can use it with base dex and still get enough ar vs hammerdins without problems.

[xxxkillerxxx]

fort+widow is good to cheese up v/ts, other than that its not that useful.

Widow=instant death vs competent smite. Fort is also worthless since you need the mobility on enigma if you want to stay alive for more than 10 seconds.

[xxxkillerxxx]

i have to disagree.. fort gives 20% more damage, and thats a significant amount considering you dont hit very often vs dins.. and enigma doesnt really help much, alot of the time the good dins will just cast oak and try to stomp you when you hit the end of your ww. all it does is make it easier for you to run away.. big deal~~ a good hdin will be on you all the time even with your enigma, the only good part is that you can tele out of parts were you are getting boxed in, but even still if your good you a. dont let that happpen. b. can still get out of it

i know when i use to play bvc, i always used fort.. and when they were trying to box me in i'd easily be able to get out of it.. and if the dins dont use oak, if your good at dodging lots of hammers close to you in a small area, widow is very good.. you just cannot stay there for to long, shoot once to twice, change your position or else you will get crushed lol. if anyone knows O_oRejoin he was a west ladder din last season, i went 4-5 against him and he didnt use oak, but alot of the time i stayed in one fairly large corner, and i blasted widow until he got near, if your good at reading desynch then you will have alot easier time with dins.. i use to play classic so i can read it pretty easily, and i could get alot of free wws in, as for the KB thing i never got around to doing it, sold my barb for $ ;p, but ya it'd be probally pretty good, especially if you have a hard time reading desyncs.

What use is damage if you cant hit them? Fortbarbs are as predictable as it gets, I've never seen a good hammerdin getting hit by a barb wearing fort unless he screwed up royally and didn't really play carefully in the first place.

You need enigma to add a degree of uncertainty in the duel, otherwise it's completely one-sided just like trying fort vs smite lol.

[Uncle_Mike]

No offense but you can quote multiple people in a single post, try not to double/tripple post in the future please.

thanks

[akumaxxyz]

Widow=instant death vs competent smite. Fort is also worthless since you need the mobility on enigma if you want to stay alive for more than 10 seconds.

you dont need it, just cheese it up. its just a duel vs a weak smiter

[Moritz]

I dont fully sorb because it's stupid. I wont ''almost'' fully sorb (someone wanted to tell me lately on these forums that as long as you dont get healed by an attack it's np). Thus I wont use fort. simple.

I dont know but on my realm are no desync-only hammerdins and they always try to box you.
I'll go for enigma.


Thanks all for answering.

[xxxkillerxxx]

No offense but you can quote multiple people in a single post, try not to double/tripple post in the future please.

thanks

Will do chief :)


you dont need it, just cheese it up. its just a duel vs a weak smiter

My point was that barbs with fortitude are too easy for smiters. I know, I play one myself. And there is no way I leave a barb enough time to fire a shot with widow without having me on top of him smiting.

[akumaxxyz]

tele smite vs barb is useless unless you get some fcr and lt

[xxxkillerxxx]

tele smite vs barb is useless unless you get some fcr and lt

Who doesn't have fcr and tap on smiter? 99% of barbs are sadly easy without tap though and fcr isn't needed vs barbs anyway.

[akumaxxyz]

Who doesn't have fcr and tap on smiter? 99% of barbs are sadly easy without tap though and fcr isn't needed vs barbs anyway.

try tele smite any good barb with out fcr and say that again

[xxxkillerxxx]

try tele smite any good barb with out fcr and say that again

I have been raped by 0% fcr telesmiters and I kill barbs just as easy with 0% fcr as with 75% fcr. I dont really see your point here, in my experience a 0-10% fcr setup with clegs, verdungos and exile works better than a 75% fcr setup with trangs/spirit/arach. Fcr is nice but it's not really necessary vs barbs. Especially not if they use fort hehe.

Anyway I'll try avoid being dragged into another huge argument as I got with Ce Olba before by returning to my original statement: widow and/or fort vs smite is suicide. Much like HappyAssassin said regarding hammerdins, it works vs mediocre players, noone good :)

[akumaxxyz]

I have been raped by 0% fcr telesmiters and I kill barbs just as easy with 0% fcr as with 75% fcr. I dont really see your point here, in my experience a 0-10% fcr setup with clegs, verdungos and exile works better than a 75% fcr setup with trangs/spirit/arach. Fcr is nice but it's not really necessary vs barbs. Especially not if they use fort hehe.

Anyway I'll try avoid being dragged into another huge argument as I got with Ce Olba before by returning to my original statement: widow and/or fort vs smite is suicide. Much like HappyAssassin said regarding hammerdins, it works vs mediocre players, noone good :)

did you read what i wrote? vs v/t not pure smite. i agree with you though, widow vs fort is trash vs pure smite

[Moritz]

this is kinda offtopic now but anyway.

I dont see a big diffrence between well-bult vt and smiter if you fully sorb the vt.
vts use pc sks, smiters usually dont. thus vts got higher dmg often.

smiters got about 500 more life and more defense, but you gotta use stack/abs gear vs vt which pretty much out balances the def aspect.


what if the vt packs a cta into inv vs 2 skillers and uses widow as well? he fires much faster and got good phys dmg and can have OW via dracs.
I'd never do that as VT because it's too much hassle but I thought youre just theory crafting, and why not throwing this in?

[xxxkillerxxx]

did you read what i wrote? vs v/t not pure smite. i agree with you though, widow vs fort is trash vs pure smite

Well, in my opinion v/t is just a harder smiter for barbs, same smite damage and same defense (assuming smiter with resist auras and not crappy one with defiance) but also foh that forces barb to use worse gear and stresses him. I get your point with fort+widow and it works well vs smiters and v/t:s who dont telesmite but not vs others :(

[mainaman]

try tele smite any good barb with out fcr and say that againi have seen a good amiter that can tele smite with 0 fcr and on top of that he used hoz.
what if the vt packs a cta into inv vs 2 skillers and uses widow as well? he fires much faster and got good phys dmg and can have OW via dracs.
I'd never do that as VT because it's too much hassle but I thought youre just theory crafting, and why not throwing this in?offscreen shots with widowmaker combined with hf flashing and tele smites = hard times for any barb!
One more time bvc is not so viable a char these days , unlike early 1.10 when no one was using block or dr.I am sure ppl agree that playing bvc actually take a lot more skill now since almost any char has adv over dual axe barb.

[Moritz]

I know, I just said that to counter stupid Forti builds.
Although I must say that most Europe sorcs and many necs play nonblock. But then again, sorcs are easy anyway.

Time to lvl my barb now.

[akumaxxyz]

i have seen a good amiter that can tele smite with 0 fcr and on top of that he used hoz.

got videos of that? i like to see how smiter with no fcr tele smite good barb.

[xxxkillerxxx]

got videos of that? i like to see how smiter with no fcr tele smite good barb.

What is there to see? A few frames slower teleport doesn't change anything in this matchup except that it's easier to catch barbs that try to tele away.

[Moritz]

well I find that 20+fc are good to use. whereas I find 75fc (like some ppl advice) is big overkill on smiter.
somewhere between 20-48 is good, I found 30 to be best because easily reachable without big sacrifices and ok fcr for telesmiting.


PS: killer you are europe nl right? If yes, I wanna meet you ingame to talk a bit and have some duels. I use a ww/ls/kick assassin and I'm just rebuilding my bvc.

[mainaman]

got videos of that? i like to see how smiter with no fcr tele smite good barb.i dont have vis of that but i seen such smiters duel and they are pretty dangerous.
if you want bm dools tho watch those(i'm pretty sure you have seen them already but oh well)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GlVepZ2cBQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40sVzVNpJg0

ifim not mistaken you play west nl? the guy that made the vids might be interested in dueling you on his smiter vs your bvc, or viceversa im sure

[xxxkillerxxx]

well I find that 20+fc are good to use. whereas I find 75fc (like some ppl advice) is big overkill on smiter.
somewhere between 20-48 is good, I found 30 to be best because easily reachable without big sacrifices and ok fcr for telesmiting.


PS: killer you are europe nl right? If yes, I wanna meet you ingame to talk a bit and have some duels. I use a ww/ls/kick assassin and I'm just rebuilding my bvc.

75 fcr is nice vs casters, anything works vs barbs hehe.
Yeah I'm nl since reset, PM me your account and we'll talk :)

[akumaxxyz]

i dont have vis of that but i seen such smiters duel and they are pretty dangerous.
if you want bm dools tho watch those(i'm pretty sure you have seen them already but oh well)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GlVepZ2cBQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40sVzVNpJg0

ifim not mistaken you play west nl? the guy that made the vids might be interested in dueling you on his smiter vs your bvc, or viceversa im sure

lol i seen those befor.. anyway what is his account?

75 fcr is nice vs casters, anything works vs barbs hehe.
Yeah I'm nl since reset, PM me your account and we'll talk :)
Today 18:51
since you think life tap is being gm and all, barb could just use dooms/clegs/ and other slow itamz to deal with you, you'll be swinging like a zombie even with a grief pb

[xxxkillerxxx]

since you think life tap is being gm and all, barb could just use dooms/clegs/ and other slow itamz to deal with you, you'll be swinging like a zombie even with a grief pb

Sorry but that doesn't work in practice. Don't you think I and others haven't tried that? A lot?

With clegs+arach barbs dont slow smiters one single frame and if barbs use doom they lose damage and ar while still not slowing smiter enough to make a difference. Only way to win would be if the smiter doesn't use clegs+holy freeze himself but who wouldn't do that vs clegs+doom barbs?

Smiter just happen to be another char that overpower barbs, even more effective than hammerdins and necros if you ask me. Opinions differ but where I play neither tap nor enchant is bad mannered.

[Rabbitz]

Akuma.

EUROSCNL.

lt is gm for some wicked reason.

[akumaxxyz]

Sorry but that doesn't work in practice. Don't you think I and others haven't tried that? A lot?

With clegs+arach barbs dont slow smiters one single frame and if barbs use doom they lose damage and ar while still not slowing smiter enough to make a difference. Only way to win would be if the smiter doesn't use clegs+holy freeze himself but who wouldn't do that vs clegs+doom barbs?

Smiter just happen to be another char that overpower barbs, even more effective than hammerdins and necros if you ask me. Opinions differ but where I play neither tap nor enchant is bad mannered.

only overpowered when being use with life tap. you can still win with clegs doom just do tele wws

[mainaman]

lol i seen those befor.. anyway what is his account?
well you can always pm him on youtube, i dont play west so i don't know his acc.

[xxxkillerxxx]

only overpowered when being use with life tap. you can still win with clegs doom just do tele wws

I disagree. Lets leave it at that.

[McMeat]

hi. barb strategies exist to mangle any smiter behavior.

[chileno]

tele smite vs barb is useless unless you get some fcr and lt

Your barb is chickenbroth right? If so I have seen ThatWasShockin's v/t with no fcr or lt tele smite you and win.

[akumaxxyz]

Your barb is chickenbroth right? If so I have seen ThatWasShockin's v/t with no fcr or lt tele smite you and win.

must of duel someone crappy on it, and it is not my barb its a shared account

[xxxkillerxxx]

hi. barb strategies exist to mangle any smiter behavior.

Elaborate. If smiters want to win they can just wait until fat barb is out of mana then pk with widow haha.

[akumaxxyz]

Elaborate. If smiters want to win they can just wait until fat barb is out of mana then pk with widow haha.

or fat barb can wait until your bo is out

[mainaman]

or fat barb can wait until your bo is outhe cant rebo or something?

[xxxkillerxxx]

or fat barb can wait until your bo is out

Not really. There's so many ways for a smiter to play ugly on barbs if they really want to win at all costs. 100k def smiter with ethbug stone and tele ammy that casts clay golem on barb would be quite demoralizing ^^

[akumaxxyz]

he cant rebo or something?

uh he has widow so he have to waste a few sec for put on cta on inventory hit him when he does this,

Not really. There's so many ways for a smiter to play ugly on barbs if they really want to win at all costs. 100k def smiter with ethbug stone and tele ammy that casts clay golem on barb would be quite demoralizing ^^

yes lol, but you dont see many of them around

[mainaman]

uh he has widow so he have to waste a few sec for put on cta on inventory hit him when he does this,

so you are saying the smiter will sit dead in a spot and try bo...i'd charge somewhere safe and bo all i need to do is swap grief for cta no biggie.

[McMeat]

high mobility hit and run ow strategy will defeat any smiter the majority of the time, even if the barb's cth is 5-10%.

assuming they're not stupidly repetitive or patterned, a highly mobile barb can get in, clip ww, and get out before any human (not tool assisted) smiter can target smite and/or tele smite chase.

0 fcr smiter has no chance of catching a 40 fcr barb in this manner.

[Ce Olba]

high mobility hit and run ow strategy will defeat any smiter the majority of the time, even if the barb's cth is 5-10%.

Having such a low CtH will make OW pretty worthless, since it will rarely trigger.

assuming they're not stupidly repetitive or patterned, a highly mobile barb can get in, clip ww, and get out before any human (not tool assisted) smiter can target smite and/or tele smite chase.

Tell me, have you ever player Counter-Strike? Some of the people who play Counter-Strike are totally amazing, reacting to even the slightest bit of movement in the screen and getting an instant head shot. Now what makes you think the same cannot be done in D2?

Also, the speed of the mouse can easily be adjusted so that it moves extremely fast. However, the speed usually comes with a cost of accuracy, which is not necessarily something you want to lose in D2.

[McMeat]

Having such a low CtH will make OW pretty worthless, since it will rarely trigger.



OW becomes more effective than other sources of damage specifically WHEN you cannot hit often.


Tell me, have you ever player Counter-Strike? Some of the people who play Counter-Strike are totally amazing, reacting to even the slightest bit of movement in the screen and getting an instant head shot. Now what makes you think the same cannot be done in D2?


I'm not interested in making comparisons to first person shooters, the argument is moot, rather my experience playing d2 on bnet has significantly more value to me in this discussion. Have you ever played that?

[Ce Olba]

OW becomes more effective than other sources of damage specifically WHEN you cannot hit often.

That is true. It's true because OW is damage over time, not raw damage. However, having 25% OW on one hand and 50% on the other aren't exactly good odds of triggering OW if you only have 5-10% CtH.

I'm not interested in making comparisons to first person shooters, the argument is moot

It is not moot. Both are the same thing. Fast eye-to-hand-coordination coupled with accuracy.

rather my experience playing d2 on bnet has significantly more value to me in this discussion. Have you ever played that?

Yes, I have played the game. Just for the heck of it, check the history of threads I've made, should prove that I've played the game.

And I believe I can say that some of the best D2 players have around the same accuracy and eye-to-hand-coordination as some of the top non-pro Counter-Strike players. This is common sense, since both are the same thing, seeking something on the screen and clicking on it while pressing keys on your keyboard.

[chileno]

That's when you put the malice on.

[Ce Olba]

That's when you put the malice on.

Malice? That's a ridiculous suggestion. No IAS% and 100% OW? No thanks. Rather use a Fury. Hits the breakpoint and gives you a total of 91% OW with Dracul's.

[akumaxxyz]

so you are saying the smiter will sit dead in a spot and try bo...i'd charge somewhere safe and bo all i need to do is swap grief for cta no biggie.

a fast barb can land some free hits when you do it, and if you want to duel like that, the barb can just hide in a cave and let your bo run out again lol

[chileno]

Malice? That's a ridiculous suggestion. No IAS% and 100% OW? No thanks. Rather use a Fury. Hits the breakpoint and gives you a total of 91% OW with Dracul's.

You don't always have to hit the last breakpoint to be effective. I'd also rather use clegaws gloves or something that gives life/ar. If you want open wounds to trigger nothing is more effective then a malice.

[McMeat]

And I believe I can say that some of the best D2 players have around the same accuracy and eye-to-hand-coordination as some of the top non-pro Counter-Strike players. This is common sense, since both are the same thing, seeking something on the screen and clicking on it while pressing keys on your keyboard.

so if I have played them, might my opinions suddenly have merit?

[Ce Olba]

so if I have played them, might my opinions suddenly have merit?

Never did I say that your opinion was worth less than that of someone else's only because you seem to disagree with me.

[mainaman]

a fast barb can land some free hits when you do it, and if you want to duel like that, the barb can just hide in a cave and let your bo run out again lolw/e you say captain

[akumaxxyz]

w/e you say captain
yeah whatever

[McMeat]

Never did I say that your opinion was worth less than that of someone else's only because you seem to disagree with me.

thank you for capitulating.

[mainaman]

yeah whateverapparently you know alot about smiters and barbs so yeah w/e you say

[akumaxxyz]

apparently you know alot about smiters and barbs so yeah w/e you say

never said i did, but if you want to duel like that on a smiter, why cant the other person duel like you too?

[xxxkillerxxx]

high mobility hit and run ow strategy will defeat any smiter the majority of the time, even if the barb's cth is 5-10%.

assuming they're not stupidly repetitive or patterned, a highly mobile barb can get in, clip ww, and get out before any human (not tool assisted) smiter can target smite and/or tele smite chase.

0 fcr smiter has no chance of catching a 40 fcr barb in this manner.

How extensive have you tested this vs top smiters? It's hard to clip safely under stress and if the smiter is clued he can just desynch and it would be a completely random trading of hits which I cannot see the barb winning in the long run.

I agree that teleport and mobility in general is key, but last time a (good) barb tried to surprise-tele-clip me it worked once, then I just mixed charge and shift-smite randomly.

Keep me updated though. I hate smiters.