View Full Version : Rethinking Barb vs. Hammer
HappyAssassin
19-08-2007, 22:10
Just to share some thoughts on this topic. For a long time there has been this debate over whether or not a hammerdin is an effective counter to a BvC. Let me preface this by saying that I play a BvC, and I have very little experience actually using a hammerdin in duels. There is a progression of strategy as I see it, as each class has certain counters to the other one's tricks:
1) A hammerdin that sits still and hammers, or one that teleports around and hammers, will generally kill a barb that teleports on top and does WW. This is most commonly seen in pubs.
2) A good barb that can short WW, make use of the blind spot, and predict desync will generally kill a hammerdin that just hangs around and spams.
3) A hammerdin that makes use of desync, charge and is reasonably defensive will kill a barb that tries to tele-ww him to death, no matter how good the barb is at tele-ww.
4) A barb using Widowmaker can force a hammerdin to go offensive, and he can usually kill him once this happens.
5) A good hammerdin can force damage exchange with an Enigma using barb (even if the barb uses Widowmaker), an exchange that the Enigma barb will usually lose.
6) A barb can use Fortitude and stacked damage setup combined with Widow to force the paladin into a damage exchange he CANNOT win. Good WWs and prediction of desync combined with high AR and damage give the Barb an advantage over the paladin.
Now, this is where the the progession usually ends. We have the mcm vids to demonstrate that #6 does in fact work very well. But, lets take a step back and actually watch the vids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWIV6kicu-8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duQ1BvTUJSs&mode=related&search=
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-P3YTQHPtI&mode=related&search= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-P3YTQHPtI&mode=related&search=)
These paladins all charge a lot. None of them recast Oak, or at best they do it rarely. They all tele on top without stack and hammer. In all these vids, there are only 3 attempts to box the barbarian in with hammerfields. And, these paladins generally drop in 3 or less WWs ("Gc" goes down in two several times). I'm not claiming to be better at BvC than mcm, but I would say that his strategy is quite simple and easily executed. He spams widow until the hammerdin comes in, then short WWs him, or he predicts his (very predictable) desync and long WWs to catch him in charge. There isn't a lot of room for improvement. All this leads to to next step in the progression:
7) A hammerdin that actively maintains his minion stack, teleports much more than he charges, makes use of unsummon lock, and builds up a hammerfield around the low mobility barb will kill a Fort barb much more often than not.
This is mostly based on some recent duels I've had, with (*tekniqz.) and with a few other paladin players, who explained that they had developed this strategy after dying a lot using conventional tactics against Fort barbs. It's partly influenced by the dueling enviroment on West NL, where most GM duels are held in NM. Oak is physical immune in NM, which means it tanks the first and second WW hits reliably. The tele on top trick is mostly to take the widow out of it, the real danger comes from being boxed in with hammers and then telestomped. So, we get to:
8) A barb must use Enigma against a paladin who knows what he's doing. This brings us back to #5, wherein an Enigma BvC must get a lot of hits on the paladin to kill him. The barb still has a chance to win if he WWs correctly and has to play EVEN MORE defensively, but at this point the paladin has the advantage.
IMO this is truth of the matchup. It's not an original idea, SicHalo among others has been saying it for a while. It varies depending on realm (a realm where duels are in Hell is easier on the barb, one with NM duels is an advantage to the hammerdin). And of course, a barb always has a fighting chance.
mainaman
19-08-2007, 22:42
there are match ups where barb needs to use fotitude, and there are matchups where the barb has to use enigma depending on the play style of the hammerdin.
My experience shows however that hammerdin has the upperhand since they can afford to make mmore mistakes during the duel.
akumaxxyz
19-08-2007, 22:56
if its in nm you can just tele hammer barbs to death, tele hammer is actually good if you know how to lay them. a barb with widow+fort is 100% cheese
ShazamLies
19-08-2007, 23:50
Not sure if these are OT questions but...
Will dual dooms aura kill the oak on NM? At the very least enchant charges should?
And has anyone tried using a Fury (Eth or not) instead of beast? I haven't played a BvC in a few months but I remember that the OW is pretty sweet vs. defensive dins. And more often than not getting tele-stomped with widow out means instant death. I was wondering if perhaps Grief/Fury and Doom/Doom on switch might be a better option.
And I don't get how you can boxed in very effectively if you have enigma?
Btw I was wondering if any experienced hammerdins ever flash freeze barbs. (I only really played hammerdins on classic last year to learn desynch and thats about it)
doom/doom's are considered bm by most.. and boxing in doesnt work that great vrs a good barb.. even when they are using fort.. they can just do long south west ww's to get out, and if the din tries to desynch down on them they can change there ww direction just a little bit to smack them, or to just go in a opposite direction from getting hit.
also i dont really like the idea of swapping fury for beast, your sacrificing damage+cb and other stuff just for the open wounds.. and with a good din they'll have like 4.5k life 50dr max block 125/86.. and even more with a oak, so i think i'd rather have the pure damage over the open wounds in that case. open wounds is more efficient on lower life things.
against something with high defence and max block OW will help a lot if you cant rely on regular high damage hits
mainaman
20-08-2007, 02:01
against something with high defence and max block OW will help a lot if you cant rely on regular high damage hitsyeah but you can't hit 4.5k+ life hammerdin enough times to kil lthem when you die in 2-4 hammers...
yeah but you can't hit 4.5k+ life hammerdin enough times to kil lthem when you die in 2-4 hammers...
cant really understand this cuz there's no comma's or anything.. :/
yeah but you can't hit 4.5k+ life hammerdin enough times to kil lthem when you die in 2-4 hammers...
so few hits with OW wounds working is a good thing no? especially if you are high clvl
cant really understand this cuz there's no comma's or anything.. :/
The only comma needed would be after the first word o_O
akumaxxyz
20-08-2007, 04:20
duress would be better in this case, you can get 90+ ow and lots of cb with beast/gores
mainaman
20-08-2007, 05:04
so few hits with OW wounds working is a good thing no? especially if you are high clvleven at highest lvls you cant cause enough dmg with ow only to kill a hammerdin before they kill you. I am saying it take salot of skil lto beat a good hammerdin, average hammerdins are not a concern at least for me.
I never use fort. Especially not vs hammerdins because a good one WILL easily trap you in a hammerfield by teleporting around you.
I'm not a friend of Vic aka RIP_TheJesus and I dont consider him the best hammerdin on realm (he himself does haha), but his tactics in his guide are good and work. I'll just quote.
WW-barb: **Difficulty: Medium-hard **
The barb will have huge life (6-7+k) so don�t be surprised if he takes 5+ hammers. The barb will at any rate play defensive vs. you so you will be the one directing the game. If you lock right on top of him he will probably WW sideways and hit you. You can still do this at start to make him move. If you are lucky you will hit him right after your lock. Anyhow be aggressive and apply the same strategy here as with Javazon/melee druid but keep in mind that WW on barbs work in a sligthly other way then those mentioned. The barb will in most cases desync slightly while WW and while WW is in motion it can�t be interrupted. You can never teleport on top of a barb that has already started a WW = you will get hit if his AR is high enough. You must, just as vs. bowas try to tele in front of his direction to make him taste your hammer. If you are low on life another strategy here is to tele beside him and spam a few hammers so that he is forced to keep on Wwing and then right after tele beside him again. Remaking this procedure again and again will eventually create a field of hammers that the barb will have a hard time to get out of (this is a very safe strategy and if you read the barbs movement you shouldn�t be worried about getting hit). If the barb is attempting to teleport away to a new area, chase him down fast and bring some nice locks on his head and it�s bye bye (same as vs trapsin). Some barbs will also use Bow as shift gear. When he does that (which he will when he is at distance) make a fast tele on top of him and hammer him down. This must be done real fast, and if you succeed the barb won�t have time to change back to WW gear. He will either die or take huge damage for sure.
It's a bit messed up but basically right.
I never understood why US players think that desync hammerdins are so good.
Or well, that charge/hammer/charge/hammer paladins are so good. I find those suck **** vs most.
I dont wanna tell you that desync sucks, but it has to be combined a lot more often with teleport. Telelocking and creating hammerfields by teleporting is the way to go against most classes.
Desync charge/hammer spamming is a rather defensive action and often easy to counter if used offensively. For offensive play e.g. vs barbs, teleporting will lead to the win.
You have 75% block, you still desync at start. A good hammerdin with fast locking skills and delay teleports owns widowbarbs.
I played bowzon for a long time so I am very familiar with spam/run technique but still my brother (he plays hammerdin pretty good I'd say) got me quite often with a telelock on widow switch which leads to instant death most of the time.
I dont get hurt probably 9 out of ten times when I use widow, but in that 1 case I am dead directly and a hammerdin can indeed make a lot more mistakes than a barb in this matchup.
I personally find that widow is great againt newbie hammerdins and somewhere between mediocre-useless-suicide against a good and experienced one.
mainaman
20-08-2007, 07:44
I never use fort. Especially not vs hammerdins because a good one WILL easily trap you in a hammerfield by teleporting around you.
I'm not a friend of Vic aka RIP_TheJesus and I dont consider him the best hammerdin on realm (he himself does haha), but his tactics in his guide are good and work. I'll just quote.
It's a bit messed up but basically right.
I never understood why US players think that desync hammerdins are so good.
Or well, that charge/hammer/charge/hammer paladins are so good. I find those suck **** vs most. you havent seen good desyncgers then, some of the best on east you see after they have killed you
i agree that tele /desynch is better dueling strat than pure desynch. Tele hammerd works very well vs some classes I a gree.
Most dueling vids I see that are posted here are like 2 minutes desync, 1 tele. 1 min desync, 1 tele.
This sucks. Charge/hammer can be good as offensive action sometimes, but if you really wanna put pressure on your opponent you need to teleport often.
my opinion.
xxxkillerxxx
20-08-2007, 11:19
I never understood why US players think that desync hammerdins are so good.
You haven't dueled a good one then. Getting crushed by teleporting hammerdins is one thing but normally you get them to somewhere between 5-50% of their life. Getting killed without knowing where your opponent was any time in the duel, and only dreaming of scoring a hit on them, is demoralizing at best.
I agree with the rest of your post though, teleporting normally allows for more offensive play and lets you take out your opponent faster.
Fortitude is horrible on barbs, I dont know anyone good who actually uses it since its inferior to enigma in all matchups.
I find it more dangerous if you hardly know where the hammerdin is and he suddenly stands on top of you and hammers than if you hardly know where he is and creates invi fields by desyncing.
But maybe youre right and I havent duelled any decent one.
MysticDragon
20-08-2007, 15:49
A pity we can't all be on the same realm and try this out.
ive read that 2 in vics guide some of the tactics do work however a good hammerdin provides both desync as well tele hammer and uses in the correct scenarios for good effect.
I myself on mage do alot of boxing style techniques vs barbs using forti and alot of delayed namelock tele hammers expecially when they switch to bow or use charge namelock tele hammer as well and somewhere mixing in foh if not stacked.
But from a barbs point of view i hardly if ever get cought with bow out not saying its impossible but rare i ever get cought with bow out also the way i have it i have leap on right and ga on left click which mean u can leap while u have ga which reduces the risks of getting tele stomped and if u do, u can leap away meaning u only tank one hammer instead of getting hit by 2-3.
No and thats incorrect fortitude is not inferior at all the dmg u utilise from forti is serious vs hammers so is the near 2k ga dmg u output as well. however some hammerdins u will not beat with forti period u need enigma vs some.
Even so with pure tele action it adds preasure but no where near as dangerous than someone desyncing and before u know it they tele ontop of u, hence why combining tele hammer with desync makes a good hammer.
rich, I was never talking about ''pure'' teleport hammerdins ^_^ those suck.
desync is absolutely necessary and I agree with you that it has to be mixed up.
I'm just saying that desyncing + teleporting if done well is >> desync only.
I can ask my brother if he wants to duel you for fun.
rich, I was never talking about ''pure'' teleport hammerdins ^_^ those suck.
desync is absolutely necessary and I agree with you that it has to be mixed up.
I'm just saying that desyncing + teleporting if done well is >> desync only.
I can ask my brother if he wants to duel you for fun.
Yeah would not mind that hammer or barb?
edit
I miss understood i thought u meant pure tele as all what would happen is the barb will simply just whirl and clip ur hp away till u die -.-
the only time i think pure desync has an edge is hammer vs hammer as from what i have found with this duel is being offensive u rarely win unless u have good namelocking even then the pala charges away u get hit by hammers, although sometimes u can pull off a nice namelock tele hammer but its prett risky.
I find it more dangerous if you hardly know where the hammerdin is and he suddenly stands on top of you and hammers than if you hardly know where he is and creates invi fields by desyncing.
But maybe youre right and I havent duelled any decent one.
After dueling MysticDragon who knows how many times with my Ghost, I find in addition to doing tele-hammer SO much that it gets annoying, he also makes fields around me, so when I need to WW away, I run into fields and get hurt :tongue:
But most of the time, his tele-hammer is what gets me, when I'm laying WoFs or something.
I agree with you, basically :P
well i find vs ww sins aproach is a bit more different as u are forced to desync more than tele hammer as u have wof + mb and traps which means u cant tele and are forced more to desync however when there is an opening u then go for a tele hammer approach but the field arround the wwsin is also a usefull move as well.
well i find vs ww sins aproach is a bit more different as u are forced to desync more than tele hammer as u have wof + mb and traps which means u cant tele and are forced more to desync however when there is an opening u then go for a tele hammer approach but the field arround the wwsin is also a usefull move as well.
I don't know how he does it so much, cause I usually have an MB lock on him while he charges, but it seems to me he can tele-hammer whenever he wants to, which annoys me, mostly because when I used the Hdin and he used my Ghost, I couldn't tele-hammer at all when he had an MB lock.
Hax.
MysticDragon
20-08-2007, 16:37
I don't know how he does it so much, cause I usually have an MB lock on him while he charges, but it seems to me he can tele-hammer whenever he wants to, which annoys me, mostly because when I used the Hdin and he used my Ghost, I couldn't tele-hammer at all when he had an MB lock.
Hax.
Hah. Maybe I play you too much. :P
Against characters that are capable of whirling, ie barb and wwsin, namelock teleports should not be used too often as hammerdin.
an experienced wwsin will sense it like very time and gets some free hits vs you.
you gotta do it unexpectedly, e.g. when you tele close to her, drop a hammer, she will lock you with mindblast and spam.
You do a quick charge AWAY from the assassin, and she will hold her namelock as she will think that you will charge away trying to break the lock.
if youre fast enough, you can land a namelock teleport in that very moment.
just to mention one occasion.
charging in a large cure from offscreen + tele is imho so easy to detect. its just cheap.
Against characters that are capable of whirling, ie barb and wwsin, namelock teleports should not be used too often as hammerdin.
an experienced wwsin will sense it like very time and gets some free hits vs you.
you gotta do it unexpectedly, e.g. when you tele close to her, drop a hammer, she will lock you with mindblast and spam.
You do a quick charge AWAY from the assassin, and she will hold her namelock as she will think that you will charge away trying to break the lock.
if youre fast enough, you can land a namelock teleport in that very moment.
just to mention one occasion.
charging in a large cure from offscreen + tele is imho so easy to detect. its just cheap.
Don't get me wrong, I do know most of the time when a tele-hammer is coming.
Most of the time I can escape tele-hammers, but other times it works on me, usually when I'm casting traps or teleporting away.
Not sure, but I do recall losing most of the time because of stray hammers on a tele-whirl but not sure :tongue:
xxxkillerxxx
20-08-2007, 19:00
I find it more dangerous if you hardly know where the hammerdin is and he suddenly stands on top of you and hammers than if you hardly know where he is and creates invi fields by desyncing.
But maybe youre right and I havent duelled any decent one.
Both can be equally deadly but insane desynchers are just demoralizing when you realize there is no way to beat them or even touch them. At least you can score hits on teleporters even if they overpower and kill you.
This is just vs barbs of course, vs some chars pure desynch is inferior to mixed style.
xxxkillerxxx
20-08-2007, 19:04
I miss understood i thought u meant pure tele as all what would happen is the barb will simply just whirl and clip ur hp away till u die -.-
In europe we have hammerdins that can beat any barb with pure (or almost pure) telehammering, no desynch to create invisible hammers, no oak and <10k def. Dueling these are much more fun and hectic than dueling desynchers.
In europe we have hammerdins that can beat any barb with pure (or almost pure) telehammering, no desynch to create invisible hammers, no oak and <10k def. Dueling these are much more fun and hectic than dueling desynchers.
For your information, SicHalo plays on Europe.
And if by these "hammerdins that can beat any barb with pure telehammering" you are referring to the folks of Rip, that's just ridiculous.
For your information, SicHalo plays on Europe.
And if by these "hammerdins that can beat any barb with pure telehammering" you are referring to the folks of Rip, that's just ridiculous.
no. there are plenty nowaways. I dont consider vic as good as he thinks. even tammo from rip clan is better and there are a few hammerdins that are >> rips
btw I gotta repeat it again since I havent told you for at least two weeks:
all hammerdin players shall burn in hell for they play such stupid idiotic lame chars that either sorb, drink or defwhore 90% of the time.
no. there are plenty nowaways. I dont consider vic as good as he thinks. even tammo from rip clan is better and there are a few hammerdins that are >> rips
btw I gotta repeat it again since I havent told you for at least two weeks:
all hammerdin players shall burn in hell for they play such stupid idiotic lame chars that either sorb, drink or defwhore 90% of the time.
Good god, I LOVE it when ppl play hammerdins. Its like.. autowin.
Check my screenshots in that talented hammerdin thread.
you dont love dueling such hammerdins, believe me.
that tactic makes widow useless as they can go replenish 2 minutes and have full hp again.
thats exactly the argument why matt (morotsjos) always said that widow was a piece of crap (his words).
no. there are plenty nowaways. I dont consider vic as good as he thinks. even tammo from rip clan is better and there are a few hammerdins that are >> rips
Well, since getting the new PC, I haven't had much time to play D2, as my disc shattered around a month ago. And I can get a new one, at best, in a week. So I didn't really have many chances to duel. And even less so when I got myself a new mouse. And I'm not going to duel too much until I've got my triwhirls in a shape.
btw I gotta repeat it again since I havent told you for at least two weeks:
all hammerdin players shall burn in hell for they play such stupid idiotic lame chars that either sorb, drink or defwhore 90% of the time.
They shall burn in hell. But that is only true if you assume that hell exists.
xxxkillerxxx
20-08-2007, 20:18
For your information, SicHalo plays on Europe.
And if by these "hammerdins that can beat any barb with pure telehammering" you are referring to the folks of Rip, that's just ridiculous.
How nice, I thought most people here were american :)
Actually the hammerdin Keke comes to mind, I have seen others do it as well but he is probably one of the best right now.
Good god, I LOVE it when ppl play hammerdins. Its like.. autowin.
HAMMER PELA >ALL =AUTO WIN = CRY EZ GG KEKE?
well alot of ppl think hammer is auto win this is prolly why u get so many randoms building them but they are very good all round vs all if built right, i.e stack/ life/ dr/ abs etc.
Im not a fan of Vic either but he atleast knows what he is doing although when him and that wannabe Redlaw guy used to 2 v 1 me on barb they would either nick a kill vs me or town but that between us :evil:
And hammer is not the answer to all either i.e windies are a serious threat and a mana drinking 95% prebuffed es sorc is.
keke the hammer hmm ive seen him but have yet to face him vs barb so i dont know.
I def whore sometimes with a bit of offensive play vs 5+ v 1 teams, I also bring out 2 wisps vs farcast amas, will i burn in hell :sad2: ?
xxxkillerxxx
20-08-2007, 20:42
HAMMER PELA >ALL =AUTO WIN = CRY EZ GG KEKE?
well alot of ppl think hammer is auto win this is prolly why u get so many randoms building them but they are very good all round vs all if built right, i.e stack/ life/ dr/ abs etc.
Im not a fan of Vic either but he atleast knows what he is doing although when him and that wannabe Redlaw guy used to 2 v 1 me on barb they would either nick a kill vs me or town but that between us :evil:
And hammer is not the answer to all either i.e windies are a serious threat and a mana drinking 95% prebuffed es sorc is.
keke the hammer hmm ive seen him but have yet to face him vs barb so i dont know.
I def whore sometimes with a bit of offensive play vs 5+ v 1 teams, I also bring out 2 wisps vs farcast amas, will i burn in hell :sad2: ?
Hammerdins that just walk around in their hammerfield are so annoying to kill with barbs.
Just try to telestomp and short ww the amas, you dont really need any absorb or max res just make sure you keep whirls tight and dont run out of mana. Use tgods if needed.
Hammerdins that just walk around in their hammerfield are so annoying to kill with barbs.
Just try to telestomp and short ww the amas, you dont really need any absorb or max res just make sure you keep whirls tight and dont run out of mana. Use tgods if needed.
hehe nah im talking about when i use my hammer char :grin:
nah fc amas are easy on barbs anyway tg is all u need.
xxxkillerxxx
20-08-2007, 20:57
hehe nah im talking about when i use my hammer char :grin:
nah fc amas are easy on barbs anyway tg is all u need.
Haha ok :)
KeKe is ex-Jampo afaik. Deniz uses gmod and iirc tmc. not hard to play hammerdin like that.
I might be wrong though, I dont know whether its really deniz' hammerdin.
@rich: i kill fc zons with 75 res wthout abs, will i come to heaven?
@rich: i kill fc zons with 75 res wthout abs, will i come to heaven?
Ones with or without the script? I did beat Ed's legit FC tele zon several times with no absorb and no +max%. Those were fun times.
with script. but I gotta admit that hybridsins rape javas ;/
with script. but I gotta admit that hybridsins rape javas ;/
Well, of course. Get them to a D/A/E lock and that's pretty much it. It's what saves the zons at times, but it's also what destroys them at times. Holy Freeze + Leap, for example. Either they are knocked back or they spend some good time in a slow-mo animation.
mainaman
20-08-2007, 22:48
HAMMER PELA >ALL =AUTO WIN = CRY EZ GG KEKE?
well alot of ppl think hammer is auto win this is prolly why u get so many randoms building them but they are very good all round vs all if built right, i.e stack/ life/ dr/ abs etc.
a well built and played necro will shatter any hammerdin , even I can kill good hammerdins on a nec hehe
Uncle_Mike
20-08-2007, 22:58
KeKe is ex-Jampo afaik. Deniz uses gmod and iirc tmc. not hard to play hammerdin like that.
Keke is known as Kamber erm...somewhere else... :girly:
k then its not the one i meant. but deniz had that name iirc earlier.
mike come duel noob.
xxxkillerxxx
21-08-2007, 09:08
KeKe is ex-Jampo afaik. Deniz uses gmod and iirc tmc. not hard to play hammerdin like that.
I might be wrong though, I dont know whether its really deniz' hammerdin.
@rich: i kill fc zons with 75 res wthout abs, will i come to heaven?
He didn't gmod vs me and his name wasn't Jampo but Kamber. I recall the name Jampo from long ago back when I played non ladder though, not a flattering memory =)
xxxkillerxxx
21-08-2007, 09:10
a well built and played necro will shatter any hammerdin , even I can kill good hammerdins on a nec hehe
It's kind of hard when they play defensive and use oak though, one mistake and we're dead and we cant chase either =/
Get a white wand with +1 revive then go vive some wailing beasts from act3 for some great tele-on-top-and-laugh-action ^^
Imbecile
21-08-2007, 10:45
Ones with or without the script? I did beat Ed's legit FC tele zon several times with no absorb and no +max%. Those were fun times.
Not exactly impressive, considering I don't spend much funds / effort on characters that can be absorbed. Using plain sks and next to no fhr, just hoping for that one fc, to be followed by another.
Not exactly impressive, considering I don't spend much funds / effort on characters that can be absorbed. Using plain sks and next to no fhr, just hoping for that one fc, to be followed by another.
And? I wasn't trying to brag, beating amazons means nothing to me. Specially since most of the cookie-cutter javazons use BB, BTals and a Troll Nest Sanctuary or a 20/20.
But those duels were fun.
yeah nec can definetly beat a good hammer
I used to think Jampo was quite skilled till i found out he uses hacks... and he was one of the ppl i had to use enigma to beat him on bvc.
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