View Full Version : Someone please tell me the big deal with wwsins?
I mean it. On this forum, I keep reading about wwsins being the greatest thing since sliced bread and I have to assume people are just engaging in hyperbole.
I will not be an idiot and say that they're bad characters because they're not.
But I've never seen one that's so good that it can even be considered godly.
I've seen alot of other characters just kill-off everyone in the game and then start with the trash talk before leaving.
From rabies/fury werewolves to bowazons, summon necs to light-sorcs with infinity mercs(she jumped alot of people before they knew what she was so this probably shouldn't count) but never a ww sin or ww trapper.
Are they really supposed to be able to dominate any class with one of their crafty strategies or is this just a few people making their opinions everyone else's?
Barb>Assa
Hmm well sins are very good chars and are capable of beating all.
There strenghts are based in caster catching skills, i.e mb + wof and LS traps for stun.
They also do alot of ow + venom dmg
They have arround 60% clawa block and clawblock can block alot of spells as well as mele and things like smite.
They are definetly a good class char and are very strong overall vs all characters.
traditional wwsins aren't good in pvp, but ghosts and well-build hybrids are very well rounded. i would argue they are at least as well rounded as a bvc, especially if you include the widowmaker option. they're actually much better vs casters, as wof/mb is much better than leap in most cases.
HappyAssassin
16-08-2007, 19:04
Well, I suppose it would depend on your definition of godly. WWsins are not fast damaging characters, it's hard to get 7 "was slain by" message on a WWsin in a few seconds because they don't do a ton of damage all at once. If your definition of godly is a good pub clearer, WWsins suck. In fact, most of the good sins I know of barely pub at all, they focus on private duels (actually this is the case with just about every class, but that's a seperate discussion). The other problem with WWsins is that they get exponentially better as player skill increases. That's to say, a decent WWsin is pretty bad, a good WWsin is decent at best, an excellent WWsin is pretty good and a godly WWsin is a top PKer.
In much the same way as BvCs derive their reputation from a few good players who know the build through and through, the conception of WWsin effectiveness on these forums is derived from a few individuals and is not representative of the greater playing population. It's a function of the game's social systems that the better players don't pub nearly as much, partly because its boring (low skill levels) and partly because they will catch endless trash talk from their online friends should they die in a pub.
WWsins are in fact one of the best vs. all character types if they are made to work correctly. They shine in 1v1 and 2v2, above that they are less effective again due to their low damage. Their only true weakness is a barb, and there are ways around that (this is not to say that other classes don't kill them sometimes). If you play for long enough you will run into godly WWsins, there are far less of them than there are of other classes, but the ones that are good are really good.
wwsins don't usually own many, but can own someone who owns many.
Random screenshot I found:
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l277/Kijya/Screenshot300.jpg
Saga-SoV = ww/trapper
iirc smallcharms was a hdin, not sure.
Assassin saves the day :laugh:
im out in pubs with my ww/wof ghost all the time. ghosts builds are about controlling the duel. like happyassasin said, they loose their effectiveness against multiple opponents. occasionally i can take on skilled players in 1v2 and 1v3 duels, but any more than that and it becomes too hard to manage the players around you.
akumaxxyz
17-08-2007, 03:54
ghost and ww/hybrids arent as good as they claim once you duel someone who stacks a bit of psn resist + light
their hardest duels would probably be hdin/necro/barb who uses those, i imagine it would be near impossible
i just dueled a level 59 wwsin who could kill my 86 firesorc 4/5 duels - and my firesorc beats bvcs 4/5, so that's saying something
i assume she was sorbing, but thats still a pretty big achievement
akumaxxyz
17-08-2007, 11:06
i just dueled a level 59 wwsin who could kill my 86 firesorc 4/5 duels - and my firesorc beats bvcs 4/5, so that's saying something
i assume she was sorbing, but thats still a pretty big achievement
no bvc should lose to sors
i just dueled a level 59 wwsin who could kill my 86 firesorc 4/5 duels - and my firesorc beats bvcs 4/5, so that's saying something
i assume she was sorbing, but thats still a pretty big achievement
that does not prove anything..
if ur dueling someone skilled u can lose, if they are noob chances are u will win..
Also its is possible since a sin is very adapted to catching casters..
ghost and ww/hybrids arent as good as they claim once you duel someone who stacks a bit of psn resist + light
their hardest duels would probably be hdin/necro/barb who uses those, i imagine it would be near impossible
This is no argument in my eyes. You can adapt that to any single elemental based character.
It's true that wwsins, or at least ww hybrids lose of lot of their power if their opponent sorbs, but that's normal for a char that uses a lot of ele dmg.
A physical dmg based ghost cannot be sorbed that easily by the way.
i just dueled a level 59 wwsin who could kill my 86 firesorc 4/5 duels - and my firesorc beats bvcs 4/5, so that's saying something
i assume she was sorbing, but thats still a pretty big achievement
You let yourself get caught by a non-tele WW sin?
ghost and ww/hybrids arent as good as they claim once you duel someone who stacks a bit of psn resist + light
their hardest duels would probably be hdin/necro/barb who uses those, i imagine it would be near impossible
Doh?
Same like about erm, all other ele damage builds.
EDIT: DOH. Missed Moe's post =(
Doh?
Same like about erm, all other ele damage builds.
check my post dumbovicz ^_^
@topic: ww sins are good cuz stun and clawblock. (this post is no spam)
MysticDragon
17-08-2007, 19:50
i just dueled a level 59 wwsin who could kill my 86 firesorc 4/5 duels - and my firesorc beats bvcs 4/5, so that's saying something
i assume she was sorbing, but thats still a pretty big achievement
Block ES or no? What realm do you play?
no block no ES, useast NL (hoping to get a jmod soon though) - she had dtalon, so it wasnt exactly no tele
the point wasnt that she could catch me, but she could tank like 20 fbolts (28k damage). like i said, she must have been absorbing, but the point is that wwsins can be much better then barbs in the hands of a skilled player, which i am not
HappyAssassin
17-08-2007, 23:55
Anyone can beat a fire sorc with absorb, though you're right in that WWsin claw block is a nightmare for casters. Dflight is the teleporting kick.
dflight - lol of course, my mind must be wandering
the 59 did easily as much damage as the average 80+ sin ive dueled in pub games... any idea how? i dont think she was using hacks
HappyAssassin
18-08-2007, 00:19
Well, a 59 sin can have maxed Venom and Claw Mastery, Chaos and a good Fools claw. Also the 80+ sins you duel in pubs probobly use Enigma (unless they are bad), whereas a sup 59 Sin will be using Fort or Bramble, resulting in more damage (and of course less mobility).
Well, a 59 sin can have maxed Venom and Claw Mastery, Chaos and a good Fools claw. Also the 80+ sins you duel in pubs probobly use Enigma (unless they are bad), whereas a sup 59 Sin will be using Fort or Bramble, resulting in more damage (and of course less mobility).
but even so am i missing a point?
An assa running = no claw block
Also DF can be interupted pretty easily?
Also as ppl said if u got turned over by a lvl 59 sin thats ur prob its also very questionable on the barbs ur dueling as well...
but even so am i missing a point?
An assa running = no claw block
Also DF can be interupted pretty easily?
Also as ppl said if u got turned over by a lvl 59 sin thats ur prob its also very questionable on the barbs ur dueling as well...
assa wasn't running, she was wwing or dflighting most of the time
df can be interrupted, but its difficult to do from more then a screen away
again, the 59 was absorbing - why are you being rude all of a sudden?
i couldn't care less if you believe me about killing barbs, i was just stating the facts. do the math:
30k dmg*.17 for pvp penalty*.25 for max res = 1250 dmg - easily 3 or 4 hit kill on pub barbs
factor 5x 4k dmg hydras into the picture and i only usually have to hit them with fbolt once as long as they arent absorbing. my sorc can tank a ww easily, and in the time they are stuck in ww the hydras usually finish them off. I am also very good at knowing when to tele, so it doesnt usually come down to having to tank a ww. barbs are actually on of the easier duels i find.
That aside, you seem to be completely missing the point of this thread - a discussion on whether a ww barb or sin is better. My posts are advocating assassins over barbs.
Thank you HappyAssassin for your helpful reply. It seems wwsins are also very good MLD characters, on par with fohers at least.
Summerfun
18-08-2007, 02:11
no bvc should lose to sors
vouch.....
akumaxxyz
18-08-2007, 02:15
assa wasn't running, she was wwing or dflighting most of the time
df can be interrupted, but its difficult to do from more then a screen away
again, the 59 was absorbing - why are you being rude all of a sudden?
i couldn't care less if you believe me about killing barbs, i was just stating the facts. do the math:
30k dmg*.17 for pvp penalty*.25 for max res = 1250 dmg - easily 3 or 4 hit kill on pub barbs
factor 5x 4k dmg hydras into the picture and i only usually have to hit them with fbolt once as long as they arent absorbing. my sorc can tank a ww easily, and in the time they are stuck in ww the hydras usually finish them off. I am also very good at knowing when to tele, so it doesnt usually come down to having to tank a ww. barbs are actually on of the easier duels i find.
That aside, you seem to be completely missing the point of this thread - a discussion on whether a ww barb or sin is better. My posts are advocating assassins over barbs.
Thank you HappyAssassin for your helpful reply. It seems wwsins are also very good MLD characters, on par with fohers at least.
too contradicting. if you are so good at when knowning to tele, how the hell you get catch by a sin with df and no tele? and you can tank a " few wws" with no es or block? very hard to believe.
a barb is better overall if you are good at both. the barbs you duel are just trash.
Summerfun
18-08-2007, 02:30
seems crazy you could get caught by df, its allmost a 2 sek animation skill.
Its allmost like getting killed by meteor namelock
The sin has wof+mb combo, it's quite devastation for most sorcs, should hold them long enough for a df. And no matter how good your es is the wwsins damage goes straight through. The sin can block some fireballs too even if the sorc gets one though the stunlock.
Just some points that can help a lowish sin to kill a sorc. I'm not a barb player so I'll leave it at that.
too contradicting. if you are so good at when knowning to tele, how the hell you get catch by a sin with df and no tele? and you can tank a " few wws" with no es or block? very hard to believe.
a barb is better overall if you are good at both. the barbs you duel are just trash.
i never said i can tank a few ww's, i said "a ww" as in 1 - it takes 2 targeted ww's from the average pub barb to kill my sorc unless they get it perfect the first time
i also said that being caught by the assassin wasn't the issue, i said she could tank very well. In the time it took to hit her 20 times she only had to get lucky twice to kill me, and i usually play defensively when facing a sorbing ww character, so it takes a while to get 20 hits from offscreen shots.
the barbs i duel are trash? a gm barb (no sorb 75 res) takes 1250 damage a hit from me. there are very few barbs that have over 7k hp, and even that is only 6 hits. If you play defensively, this isn't very hard, especially if you set a hydra trap for them at the start, which can take away half their hp easily. This isn't counting -res from the facets either.
I'm done arguing this. If you dont believe me, pm me for a duel :smiley:
akumaxxyz
18-08-2007, 04:48
i never said i can tank a few ww's, i said "a ww" as in 1 - it takes 2 targeted ww's from the average pub barb to kill my sorc unless they get it perfect the first time
i also said that being caught by the assassin wasn't the issue, i said she could tank very well. In the time it took to hit her 20 times she only had to get lucky twice to kill me, and i usually play defensively when facing a sorbing ww character, so it takes a while to get 20 hits from offscreen shots.
the barbs i duel are trash? a gm barb (no sorb 75 res) takes 1250 damage a hit from me. there are very few barbs that have over 7k hp, and even that is only 6 hits. If you play defensively, this isn't very hard, especially if you set a hydra trap for them at the start, which can take away half their hp easily. This isn't counting -res from the facets either.
I'm done arguing this. If you dont believe me, pm me for a duel :smiley:
i'll duel you nl or lad on west, and lol @ hydras working against decent pvpers @@
barbs who cant kill sors are trash period. when i say a few wws i mean as a hole tri ww i should of been more clear, no sor can take a full tri ww with out es or block unless they got huge vita +dr
and no barb has ever pulled off a full tri whirl on me, its not hard to tele out of you have decent fhr
i play on east NL, i have no west characters
barbs who cant kill sorc are trash? its hard to catch a defensive sorc who doesn't want to be caught - just stay off the screen and they can't namelock you. even if they namelock tele the ww wont hit if the sorc is actively teleing. then its just a matter of hitting them a few times from off the screen, and thats easy. hydras havent failed me yet, they are very underrated. 4k dmg * 5 * 3 = 60k potential damage a second, or 2500 a second after all the penalties
akumaxxyz
18-08-2007, 06:24
and no barb has ever pulled off a full tri whirl on me, its not hard to tele out of you have decent fhr
i play on east NL, i have no west characters
barbs who cant kill sorc are trash? its hard to catch a defensive sorc who doesn't want to be caught - just stay off the screen and they can't namelock you. even if they namelock tele the ww wont hit if the sorc is actively teleing. then its just a matter of hitting them a few times from off the screen, and thats easy. hydras havent failed me yet, they are very underrated. 4k dmg * 5 * 3 = 60k potential damage a second, or 2500 a second after all the penalties
theory crafting about dmg is nuts, anyway im sure theres alot of decent or gg barbs on east nl, and yes bvcs who cant kill sors are trash
meh, we're turning this guy's thread into a flamefest
make a barb on east and duel me :smiley:
akumaxxyz
18-08-2007, 06:56
haha,that would require a great deal of time just to prove something, go find east nl bvcs im sure some people here that have one
i think ill just make a bvc and set out to prove myself wrong by killing firesorcs lol
seems crazy you could get caught by df, its allmost a 2 sek animation skill.
Its allmost like getting killed by meteor namelock
IIRC, it's a 20 frame animation. A single second is 25.
yes, its slightly less than a second, but i think its 24 frames. could be wrong.
yes, its slightly less than a second, but i think its 24 frames. could be wrong.
Anyhoo, if it was even near 2 seconds noone would use it. Even at one second it's rarely touched.
however u look at it if its a defensive duel there are measures that can be taken.
out come abs or max res vs a caster that not even on screen or duelwizzy ow setup which means u tele at the same frame as a sorc...
I know a good fb sorc can be a nightmare but no es or block ...lol
u get cought once ur dead, assuming the person can atleast tri-whirl
My MF sorc could easily outrange every non-enigma assassin.
There is absolutely no reason to lose versus a level 59 sin.
I wonder if Mainaman would be willing to due this person.
As for kykle, your "math" is greatly flawed. For example, you speak of 3-4*1250 -> dead barb. What the hell are you smoking? That's, at best, 5000 damage. A welfare BvC should have at least 6 000 life. Not to mention, for example, Hotspurs. Hotspurs will turn your supposed 28k Fire Ball into 476 per hit. That means 13 hits to kill. And even with a mere 75% FCR, you are talking about 1190 damage, meaning 5-6 hits to kill a BvC.
And yes, claiming that a BvC is easier than a lvl 59 non-tele WWsin is just ridiculous.
a non absorbing 75 res bvc is easier then a 90 res absorbing 59 sin
i dont claim to be very skilled, i just cant see why you dont believe a sorc can kill barbs
whoever mainaman is would probably own me, but thats not the point of my posts, i was giving my opinion on wwsin vs barb
if the barb has hotspurs and absorb, of course he will win, simply because he only needs to get lucky twice in the time it takes me to hit him 40+ times from offscreen
Arbedark
18-08-2007, 18:09
I wonder if Mainaman would be willing to due this person.
As for kykle, your "math" is greatly flawed. For example, you speak of 3-4*1250 -> dead barb. What the hell are you smoking? That's, at best, 5000 damage. A welfare BvC should have at least 6 000 life. Not to mention, for example, Hotspurs. Hotspurs will turn your supposed 28k Fire Ball into 476 per hit. That means 13 hits to kill. And even with a mere 75% FCR, you are talking about 1190 damage, meaning 5-6 hits to kill a BvC.
And yes, claiming that a BvC is easier than a lvl 59 non-tele WWsin is just ridiculous.
ZOMG TEH AWESOME BvC PLAYAH WILL BEAT SOME RANDO CLAIMING SOSO IS > BvC! WE MUST PREVENT THIS HAPPENING AND NAME-DROP / TRY AND GET THE BEST BvC AT X/Y REALM TO DUEL RANDO TO PROVE BvC > ANYTHING!!!
Good post olba...
lol the best bvc? he probably beat most smiters, let alone my sorc
if you dont believe me, duel me yourself olba. i enjoy dueling, win or lose
and for the last time. dflight=tele when you are offscreen and can't see the animation start. what dont you get about this?
thank you arbedark. from the general reaction youd think i was challenging their religious beliefs or something....
Arbedark
18-08-2007, 18:22
lol the best bvc? he probably beat most smiters, let alone my sorc
if you dont believe me, duel me yourself olba. i enjoy dueling, win or lose
and for the last time. dflight=tele when you are offscreen and can't see the animation start. what dont you get about this?
thank you arbedark. from the general reaction youd think i was challenging their religious beliefs or something....
DF does NOT equal tele from any point of view since it has such a limited range, 24 frame cast and is generally craptastic since It lands you north of the opponent and can't hit an opponent travelling south at all with it.
Olba can't duel you since he plays Europe and even if he COULD, he'd 99.99999% chance of dodge anyway...surprised he doesn't play Ama's more...
The most important thing as wwsin or bvc in a duel against casters (apart from baics like knowing how to whirl etc) is to know how to tele properly.
Yes. Proper teleporting is the key.
Unexperienced players follow in a rather straight line so they will get hit by many randomly spammed projectiles, be it spirits, spears, fbs or whatever.
By teleporting correctly, you can easily dodge those AND (this is mainly important for wwsins as they cannot reach as high frame teleporting rate as barbs) cutting corners etc to get close.
Dont teleport directly after someone but slightly parallel.
Finally, a barb or a wwsin should never lose to a sorc. I gotta agree here.
well it = tele to someone who doesnt know about the landing to the north (ie. me) and now that i know it i know how to take advantage of it :smiley:
Uncle_Mike
18-08-2007, 19:01
I'll just chime in with the usual "let's keep this civil please" :wink3:
lol ok, im done arguing this. obviously i'm not going to convince anyone with talk, so there no point
HappyAssassin
18-08-2007, 21:08
Wow what a reasonable guy.
Wow what a reasonable guy.
trying to decide if thsi is sarcastic:cool:
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