wwbarb or wwsin vs nec?

[xxxkillerxxx]

Hi all!

I have played barbarians for a while but I have trouble with bone necs (among others). My friend said that wwsins have it easier vs necros, is he right? I know clawblock and minion stacking but I just have a hard time to understand how they can catch necros who are really defensive?
Also if necro has high poison resistance wont they do really low damage, since bone armow eats up both mind blast and their already weak physical ww damage?

I used to play wwsin but it was a long time ago so maybe someone came up with new tactics. Anyone here who plays both barb and wwsin and can shed some light on how/if wwsins can catch extremely defensive high fhr necs who just spam from 3+ screens. If they can do that I can see how they beat necs since stunlock is really evil but I have never been able to mindblast-lock and place traps at the same time without nec teleporting away.

Any opinions from experienced barb&sin players? Thanks.

[saellison]

A bone necro really becomes a pain for a WW barb if they are maxblock. The main reason a WWsin would have an easier time than barbs would be that WWsins rely on open wounds+venom to do most of their damage. Both open wounds and venom aren't affected by bone armor or DR. Clawblock pwns too.

[Uncle_Mike]

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=573390 by Tienje

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=516304 by HappyAssassin

check these two guides for assassin information and strategies :smiley:

[mainaman]

get 63 fcr that helps alot vs necs,
play carefully dont rush yourself into chasing the nec allover the place,
tele alot to avoid spirits , rememeber that you can aoutrun the spirits too.
mak sure you do good wws.
Pretty much the nec has the upper hand in the match up so all you can do is practice and you will be doing fine vs avreage necs.

[ShazamLies]

get 63 fcr that helps alot vs necs,
play carefully dont rush yourself into chasing the nec allover the place,
tele alot to avoid spirits , rememeber that you can aoutrun the spirits too.
mak sure you do good wws.
Pretty much the nec has the upper hand in the match up so all you can do is practice and you will be doing fine vs avreage necs.

:cry: death to barbs!

Sins can also kick.

[SicHalo]

get 63 fcr that helps alot vs necs,
play carefully dont rush yourself into chasing the nec allover the place,
tele alot to avoid spirits , rememeber that you can aoutrun the spirits too.
mak sure you do good wws.
Pretty much the nec has the upper hand in the match up so all you can do is practice and you will be doing fine vs avreage necs.

yeah 63% fcr definetly helps

Also i find good tri-whirling helps vs maxblock max dr bone necs like this.

You can only out run a spirit if the nec does not cast decrypt.

Yeah a nec has an upper hand if the nec is defensive there is not much u can do sadly.

Also ghost based sins do extremely well vs bone necs due to mb + wof locks etc and also the way venom + ow dmg necs.

If ur a ww/trapper its even more dangerous as ur traps do alot of dmg as well.

[HappyAssassin]

Ghostsin all the way.

[TienJe]

Hi all!

I have played barbarians for a while but I have trouble with bone necs (among others). My friend said that wwsins have it easier vs necros, is he right? I know clawblock and minion stacking but I just have a hard time to understand how they can catch necros who are really defensive?
Also if necro has high poison resistance wont they do really low damage, since bone armow eats up both mind blast and their already weak physical ww damage?

I used to play wwsin but it was a long time ago so maybe someone came up with new tactics. Anyone here who plays both barb and wwsin and can shed some light on how/if wwsins can catch extremely defensive high fhr necs who just spam from 3+ screens. If they can do that I can see how they beat necs since stunlock is really evil but I have never been able to mindblast-lock and place traps at the same time without nec teleporting away.

Any opinions from experienced barb&sin players? Thanks.
defensive necs are more annoying than tough, as if they're constantly teleporting away, it means they're not firing. if the ghost has 65 fcr + shadow up, you will definitely catch them, as the build gives your shadow master the ability to MB constantly, and you will eventually get an opening just by teleporting along with the necro.

catching quick casters is pretty tough, but once you get the idea down, its not too bad. make sure you start with a trap instead of mb like most sins tell you to, as they'll escape from the mb the moment you stop to cast mb, since duct taping down teleport once mb hits is a common reaction. the best thing to try and do is slip a wof under them before they notice it/you (since wof is translucent and small), and then hold mb until the wof starts to hit. you'll need 2 casts to set up the stun, which in normal duels isn't that long, especially if you are doing it from the corners of your screen.

all i know is that after playing almost every build, teleporting summon druids to ES melee sorcs (i posted a bearsin vs necro video on youtube if you're interested), the ghost is definitely my character of choice for dueling necros.

hopefully watching some of these videos will help you get the right idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii4P911TzuE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqd-B9OBTeM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e39Qdr5zJYk

http://www.youtube.com/user/holeycow247

you'll probably find that vs non-block necros, you won't even need wof :thumbsup:

[MysticDragon]

Tried both BvC and Ghost vs block and non block necs. Ghosts do a better job.

[xxxkillerxxx]

Thank you everyone for all replies!

My friend lets me use his wwsin and I will try out as much as possible of the tips I got here and from the guides. Setting a trap before mind blasting sounds logical and might make it harder for necros to get away.

I am still doubting their damage output (especially after reading the "somebody ..." thread here) but then again not much duelers use maximum poison resistance gear.

I will return with results in a few weeks :)

[mephiztophelez]

just bear in mind that both BvC's and ww-sins take some getting used too. expect to die a lot in your early career with either of these builds.

[xxxkillerxxx]

just bear in mind that both BvC's and ww-sins take some getting used too. expect to die a lot in your early career with either of these builds.

I'm used to barb and improving on wwsin at the moment :)

I find defensive necs are hard with both but hopefully a tad easier with sins once I get good enough...

[DIEnamic]

with my wwsin, I found necs to be much easier to beat than on my bvc. but it is really the same tactic at least how I see it. hit him once and bleed him out. rinse and repeat.

I'm suprised there has been no mention of smash or wizadept yet, so here is your lucky day

http://www.youtube.com/user/w1zAd3pt
http://www.youtube.com/user/mcm375

[MysticDragon]

Pubs vita necs get chained Dclaw to death easily.

[mainaman]

with my wwsin, I found necs to be much easier to beat than on my bvc. but it is really the same tactic at least how I see it. hit him once and bleed him out. rinse and repeat.

I'm suprised there has been no mention of smash or wizadept yet, so here is your lucky day

http://www.youtube.com/user/w1zAd3pt
http://www.youtube.com/user/mcm375we know about them ..
still good nec dies very hard to a bvc, a ww sin has much better chances to win

[inanefedaykin]

Quick question that probably belongs in the sin forum. Does clawblock work at max % when running or does it go down like normal blocking?

[mainaman]

Quick question that probably belongs in the sin forum. Does clawblock work at max % when running or does it go down like normal blocking?if you run your claw block reduces, but not sure if its the same % as with shield block though

[TienJe]

if you run your claw block reduces to 1/3 , same as with shield block.
it gets reduced to 0% when walking or running

[mainaman]

it gets reduced to 0% when walking or runninghm i've been told its reduced.. I guess I got the wrong info.

[HappyAssassin]

I had a very convincing demonstration of this yesterday. I was pubbing with my barb (which is mostly what I use him for, besides BOing dave's necro) and I ran into a necro who was dominating the pub. I went after him with my barb and he started spamming Iron Maiden on me when I'd get close. Between his oak and golem I was really getting hurt when I'd land a WW. I messed around with leap and a few other tricks (I don't have a life tap wand, but he would probobly just recast anyway) but he was a good player and eventually he killed me. Of course he was going to NK me, so I left and came back with my ghost. That duel lasted about ten seconds (he wasn't block), he went down after two namelocks.

Now, it's notable that I'm better with my ghost than with my barb, but not so much better that its incomparable. The IM thing was actually really annoying, as even against a non-block nec killing him with zerk is hard. Barb's 50 FHR pub setup gets screwed by a good spear sequence, and if you use concentrate you just lack the damage to get a kill.

So, add resistance to curses to the list of reasons why ghosts are better nec hunters.

[xxxkillerxxx]

I had a very convincing demonstration of this yesterday. I was pubbing with my barb (which is mostly what I use him for, besides BOing dave's necro) and I ran into a necro who was dominating the pub. I went after him with my barb and he started spamming Iron Maiden on me when I'd get close. Between his oak and golem I was really getting hurt when I'd land a WW. I messed around with leap and a few other tricks (I don't have a life tap wand, but he would probobly just recast anyway) but he was a good player and eventually he killed me. Of course he was going to NK me, so I left and came back with my ghost. That duel lasted about ten seconds (he wasn't block), he went down after two namelocks.

Now, it's notable that I'm better with my ghost than with my barb, but not so much better that its incomparable. The IM thing was actually really annoying, as even against a non-block nec killing him with zerk is hard. Barb's 50 FHR pub setup gets screwed by a good spear sequence, and if you use concentrate you just lack the damage to get a kill.

So, add resistance to curses to the list of reasons why ghosts are better nec hunters.

I usually manage to zerk necs without problems, especially in pubs (they aren't focused on you 100% like in 1v1 and if they use iron maiden/walls they often expect an easy win) and even more so if they dont have block. If they are really defensive I get annoyed though, that's why I started using wwsin. I still have problems when they are really defensive and break namelock all the time or sometimes when a good nec tanks (I'm used to killing them fast with barb hehe). Time will tell though, I guess I have to be more mobile and hit-and-run with wwsin.

Thanks again people for all tips, more hints are welcome :)

[mephiztophelez]

i find a good tele-talon works wonderfully against most necro's with mah 'sins.

claw-block is also verra nice to have.

[MysticDragon]

Dclaw works better than Dtalon versus non block necs.

[mephiztophelez]

maybe, but seeing as talon is permanently on my LMB, i just find it easier =P

[MysticDragon]

maybe, but seeing as talon is permanently on my LMB, i just find it easier =P

It's a one point investment. :\ It doesn't knockback the nec which makes it harder for the nec to get away.

[Uncle_Mike]

It's a one point investment. :\ It doesn't knockback the nec which makes it harder for the nec to get away.

Necro... :prop:

[Verashiden]

I Hybrided DTalon into my Ghost >.> and use it on Necs. Mind you I haven't played her in a bit and when I do I normally pub (She's insanely underequipped, 7 light res with Fade on :o) and the KB wasn't really an issue.

[Gabrielle]

I win against most necro's I duel with my BvC, it only becomes hard when they spam the entire map full of bone walls and cast IM, forcing me to use zerk only. They are definetly the hardest type of necro's to duel since whirl is useless if they got good block since you'll be only hitting bonewalls which will kill you :cry:

[ScRulez]

I win against most necro's I duel with my BvC, it only becomes hard when they spam the entire map full of bone walls and cast IM, forcing me to use zerk only. They are definetly the hardest type of necro's to duel since whirl is useless if they got good block since you'll be only hitting bonewalls which will kill you :cry:

tbh they are impossible if they do that (and have block)
atleast bvc has some chances compered to ghostsin which cant touch prepered max block nec (psn res hi)

[MysticDragon]

Ghosts are better vs both vita and block necs. Walling against a Ghost is usually a bad idea. Dclaw/Talon/Normal attack with WoF will murder the walling nec because he can't get away by running out of it.

[Sass]

Would the kb from Dtalon work on the nec on a wall like it would a monster and permanently stun him (assuming one keeps kicking)?

[jaxz]

Not forgetting a ghost can be made hybrid, even the lightning traps can hurt.

[MysticDragon]

Lightning Traps don't touch necs. :\

[TienJe]

Would the kb from Dtalon work on the nec on a wall like it would a monster and permanently stun him (assuming one keeps kicking)?
dtalon doesn't KB. its dtail that KB's, and usually KB will eventually lead to breaking your lock because you need to move to get back in range. if you're attempting to stun someone, its better to just stick with the swirly from MB and leave KB out of it.

Not forgetting a ghost can be made hybrid, even the lightning traps can hurt.
most people actually find that hybridizing your sin make necros harder

[MysticDragon]

dtalon doesn't KB. its dtail that KB's, and usually KB will eventually lead to breaking your lock because you need to move to get back in range. if you're attempting to stun someone, its better to just stick with the swirly from MB and leave KB out of it.


most people actually find that hybridizing your sin make necros harder

Someone hasn't played a Wraith in a while. :P Dtalon does kb.

[TienJe]

Someone hasn't played a Wraith in a while. :P Dtalon does kb.
WEF @ crazy hidden kb.

p.s. WEF @ crazy sin names

[MysticDragon]

WEF @ crazy hidden kb.

p.s. WEF @ crazy sin names

Psssh. Not as crazy as Cattlebruiser or Shadowbruiser. OK OK OK! Bladesin duels: the new NvN!

But yeah. Normal attack or Dclaw over Dtalon. :)

[Xombie]

Bladesin duels: the new NvN!

no

sry nvn is serious business

[MysticDragon]

no

sry nvn is serious business

But. But. But. You weren't there. :weep:

[Moritz]

most people actually find that hybridizing your sin make necros harder

I dont :prop: :prop: :prop:


besides that, i find DT very effective against necros.

[Sass]

My hybrid's traps do over double her claws. And I'm a phys build.

The traps hurt him more than I ever can (especially a Mblock nec with bone armor). The LS is just hard to hit when he's running/teleing constantly.

I rarely like to bother with super defensive necs anyway. Too much of a spammtastic waste of time.

The offensive that still can't be hit are interesting duels. He's all over me, but I can't (easily) touch him. I like those duels :)

[MysticDragon]

Defensive necs don't get hit with LS that much. Catching them is all about WoF lockdown + normal attack/dclaw with minion stack for immunity to spirits for vita ones with a little whirling when they try to run out of the traps. For block necs, you do quite a bit of both, but you can't jump the nec without a WoF AND a shadow out. The ones that are the hardest for me are the ones that do a lot of NvG (TienJe and Xombie) and MR WALL HUGGER SUPER DEFENSIVE AGAINST BVC NEC :O (Xombie). :P

[Moritz]

I dont share your opinion about LS being totally useless (or close to useless).
There are pros and cons about both WoF and LS.

LS glows so you can avoid them fairly easy but it shoots quite fast after placing it and has a long range. Those are imho important features.
WoF on the other hand is harder to spot on the screen but it's got short range and it takes some time until it starts shooting.
I think a necro that totally anticipates the assassin wont get hit by either of those traps. I personally like to mix up both traps so the nec gotta take care of long range (and damaging) LS and hardly noticable (and heavily stunning) WoFs and hope to confuse him a bit.

[TienJe]

I dont share your opinion about LS being totally useless (or close to useless).
There are pros and cons about both WoF and LS.

LS glows so you can avoid them fairly easy but it shoots quite fast after placing it and has a long range. Those are imho important features.
WoF on the other hand is harder to spot on the screen but it's got short range and it takes some time until it starts shooting.
I think a necro that totally anticipates the assassin wont get hit by either of those traps. I personally like to mix up both traps so the nec gotta take care of long range (and damaging) LS and hardly noticable (and heavily stunning) WoFs and hope to confuse him a bit.
personally, when i'm playing nec, if i know the other sin is a hybrid, i'll just make sure to play a little bit more defensive and take his LS out of play. the fact that LS is easier to see than wof doesn't really affect me too much, because my play style really doesn't use traps as a "trap" in the conventional definition. i place the trap right under the character as soon as i show up on screen and use mb to hold them (they're constantly trying to teleport away anyway), instead of trying to get them to waltz into old ones (which does happen from time to time sadly).

i've always believed that LS is not a good offensive supplement to WW even if does fire the initial shot faster, because i've found that 1-2 LS, which is all you'll be able to cast a time offensively, does not fire quickly enough to stun the caster while you whirlwind, especially if the character has block (doubly so with wsg). i actually make it a point to jump right on the sin when i see her trying to use LS offensively because i know it won't be able to hold me and i can tank with the help of golem + bp. if the sin uses a mix, i just need to make sure to stay out of range of the stacked old LS, because that's the only time LS is dangerous as a stunner imo. i can see LS having some use as a damaging trap after the initial wof stun though.

i've always been very fond of wof as my primary trap, but to each his own i guess.

[Sass]

When I trap, I "trap". If the nec (sorcs do this too) is very defensive and wants to just get away quickly, I'll set some traps and herd them to them. 5 LS at once will surprise/kill them on the spot. GG

[MysticDragon]

When I trap, I "trap". If the nec (sorcs do this too) is very defensive and wants to just get away quickly, I'll set some traps and herd them to them. 5 LS at once will surprise/kill them on the spot. GG

Realm? :P Hah! I'm joking. I doubt a good nec will run into those traps. :\

[Sass]

Then I'm fine with PKing noobs. ;)