Summoner Question

[Tobias]

I have a lev 58 Summoner(basically a Fishy) and have maxed SM and RS and am close to maxing CE. Mainly concerned with what to use the rest of my skill points. Some guides call for revives and some call for a strong golem of various flavors. Are Skeleton mages even worth considering? Just wanted some opinion from those of you who have played a Summoner.

Thanks.

[SocraticB]

You'll find a lot of differing opinion there, but the good news is that a Fishymancer is perfectly capable of soloing Hell once RS/SM/CE are maxed and you have put 1 point each in the necessary curses. The extra points are just gravy, really.

There's a long answer, below, but IMHO, the short answer is:

If you're untwinked and running bosses/WSK/Baal, then 5 in Clay Golem (for a good boss-slowing tank), 5 in Bone Wall (for crowd/pack control and some extra Bone Shield defense) and the rest in Dim Vision (to deal with WSK Gloams);

If you're untwinked and running the Pit and non-WSK areas, then 5 in Clay Golem, 5 in Bone Wall and the rest in Mages/Revives (for a bigger army);

If you're twinked with high +skills, then you might see some benefit from maxing a couple poison skills or Bone Spear/Spirit - but it won't matter as your high +skills will make you completely unstoppable in PvM, anywhere, against anything.

For the long answer:

The answer, I think, depends on (a) are you twinked or not, and (b) what you want to do with your Fishy. If you're not twinked, then spreading points around a bit to Dim Vision (for the Gloams in WSK), Clay Golem (for a boss-slowing tank with good life) and Bone Wall (for controlling crowds and boss packs and giving a little boost to Bone Shield) is useful. No more than 5 in Clay Golem or Bone Wall is necessary, though. High Dim Vision is good, almost necessary, if you're running the WSK to deal with Gloams (just cast it ahead of you and you'll catch 'em); if you plan to do just Pit/Highlands/Pindle, etc., then Dim Vision isn't necessary.

I don't recommend Mages UNLESS you want to put a lot of points in them - untwinked, 5-10 point mages die quickly in Hell. Even so, you have to be careful how you use them; they tend to get in the way of your Skels/merc/golem, especially in doorways and hallways. I tend to unsummon them a lot. They do have uses against bosses, and if you're running Ubers, they are helpful.

I'm not a huge fan of Iron Golem, either. If you're mainly boss running, you want Clay Golem, so Iron Golem points are a waste. If you are untwinked, you certainly don't have the wealth for an aura runeword-based Iron Golem, which are the most useful. If you're twinked, it might be fun to run with an IG that has a great aura, but even if I was wealthy, I'd be too cheap to waste an expensive runeword on a golem that will die at some point.

Pumping poison isn't a great choice, either, if you're untwinked. Poison explosion is huge damage, but Corpse Explosion works just dandy, and at a MUCH greater radius, so I believe the total damage per explosion is greater with CE when there are many mobs about. Using Poison Nova to stop monster heal is a good thought, but PN's poison lasts only two seconds, so you have to spam it. Kind of a waste of points there, especially when the Skeleton Mage poison effect can last a very long time. Poison Dagger is really for meleemancers, and you can't afford to get the synergies maxed anyway with a Fishy.

Untwinked, Bone Spear/Spirit are for the most part useless to you because you can't fully synergise them, and they won't do enough damage.

Even untwinked, you'll have enough +skills for all the Revives you'll need, and for the curses (except Dim Vision), Summon Resist and Golem Mastery.

Twinked, however, you needn't spend ANY in Skeletal Mage, Clay Golem, Revive or Dim Vision - your huge +skills will give you all you need. You might see good returns from a synergised poison or offensive bone skill, though. If you want a HUGE army, maxing Skeletal Mage and pumping revive will put so many damn summons on the screen that you won't be able to tell what the heck is going on - but it won't generally matter as you'll just roll over everything without much effort.

Hope the long essay was helpful!

*SocraticB

[Tobias]

Thanks SocraticB,

Info is helpful. I would definately call myself untwinked, as I am playing with only the items i have found through nm trav(USESTD LADDER4)....about to hit nm Meph for the first time. That said i have found some decent plus skill wands and a head. When I summon them up I have 26 SM and 24 RS. But i have mostly kept %mf items and am starting to think that i need to get some resists. I have not died yet, but have been ridiculously close. Are resist items a must as i approach Hell? I have -30 in most right now as i have focused on mf items.

[SocraticB]

I'd say your need for resists in Hell is inversely proportionate to your (caution in playing over skill in playing). Essentially, if you go slow and know what to expect in, and how to deal with, certain areas, you can get away with low resists with a Summoner, even in Hell. Of course, that means your killing time is very reduced, which means your MF speed is low. It's really a trade-off: when gauging your speed with high resists and lower MF versus low resists and high MF, are you finding better items faster?

I'd run with at least 100MF; right now in Hell, I've got -30 or so resists all around except for poison. Gloams and the fire archers that can spawn around the Overseer and Eldritch are very dangerous with that low level of resists, but I know they might be there so have Attract/Dim Vision ready for 'em, and I generally don't have to hit too many potions. A Slvl 20+ CE blasts 'em from afar, too, which is nice.

With about 100% MF I'm finding Tiamat's Rebuke and Marrowalks and suchlike; about 1 good find in every 10 or so runs (a run for me these days is Pindle/Overseer/Eldritch, and maybe the WSK or Pits to finish). Not spectacular, but in time I'll find enough that I can use or trade up to great equipment with better MF AND resists. Just takes time.

As an aside, I'd say if you're untwinked, it's unlikely that running the Throne of Destruction and Baal would be useful for MF yet; you'd get better long-term results running quicker bosses. When you can get Obedience (yay Crushing Blow) for your merc, the time for running the Throne/Baal will drop dramatically, and they'll become worth it. Therefore, I'd advise focusing on running the easy Superuniques and the Pit and the bottom 2 WSK levels - for speed in MF, they're your best bet.

*SocraticB

[Tobias]

Thanks again SocraticB. Definately agree with you on the CB....Found Guillaume's Face for my merc, and Meph was a joke....in fact the bosses themselves have been very easy. Death just comes a knocking when i catch that stray charge bolt off of a LE or the council drops a hydra or two on top of me.

[Mikk0]

1 pt all curses
max mages
1 pt all other summons

go for golem mastery/revive/bone armor ... waht erver you feel needing. summoners skill points are quite loose :thumbsup:

[Mistress Sersi]

I thought mages were a waste. I have maxed SM & skellies, some points in revivies & 1 in all but 3-4 curses......

[AnimeCraze]

I would say resists (at least lightning) are very important unless you are extremely good with clay golem and dim vision/attract.

[Hideo]

Mages are FUN! It's a joy to see 30+ of your undead children to run around. Also, mages allow u to kill ANYTHING, slow - true, sometimes VERY slow - true, but nothing will be immune to your army. One point into every curse and rest of the points into Golem Mastery to make a super tank out of your Grumby. One point into SR and Revive too.

[davel]

If you'll be using enigma then Mages are great because you can get them to focus their attacks when you tele and stack. If not, they probably arent worth it. They're amazing if you're using enigma and infinity.

One point in revives is needed, no more. You're +skills will raise it enough to be useful for Ubers, PvP etc (but you'd need enigma for those).

Putting 20 points into bone spear/spirit is usless. Don't put your extra points here.