View Full Version : faster r/w skill good or bad idea?
lLeonidas
12-07-2007, 11:09
hey guys, just wondering what you though, is it a bad idea to use 2 skill points to get faster run walk or are those points better spend in iron skin?
hey guys, just wondering what you though, is it a bad idea to use 2 skill points to get faster run walk or are those points better spend in iron skin?
It is worth is.
Summerfun
12-07-2007, 19:38
Its a good idea, as long as you keep it at +1 inc. stammina and +1 speed
Its a good idea, as long as you keep it at +1 inc. stammina and +1 speed
Actually, it depends for what purpose your barbarian is. For example, BvCs want 4-6 points in Increased Speed.
Summerfun
12-07-2007, 23:11
All my BvC's has just 1 point in it.
Think thats more than enough with 30Frw from boots and 45Frw from enigma.
Thats just my opinion
All my BvC's has just 1 point in it.
Think thats more than enough with 30Frw from boots and 45Frw from enigma.
Thats just my opinion
You do realize that unlike non-skill FRW, skill FRW has no diminishing returns and that the two are very different?
With 1 point in Increased Speed and 75% non-skill FRW, your Final Run Speed is at 5.037 yards/second compared to being 5.04 yards/second with 5 points to Increased Speed. The increase is ~0.05%.
Also, where else could you put the points? Shout? Nat Res? Shout is pretty much useless and you will have enough points to it by the time your barb is perfect, meaning lvl 95. Nat Res in turn hits diminishing returns after a few points.
However, where the points to Increased Speed really come to play is not with pubsetup, but with a setup that has +5 skills. Then, your Final Run Speed would be 2.53 compared to being 2.536 with 5 base points. The increase is ~0.2%. Not a huge difference. But as far as I've heard, the extra points, of course, allow faster triwhirls, more desynched triwhirls, but apparently they allow you to also outrun spirits while decrepified.
However, I'm very interested, where do you put the extra four points?
You do realize that unlike non-skill FRW, skill FRW has no diminishing returns and that the two are very different?
With 1 point in Increased Speed and 75% non-skill FRW, your Final Run Speed is at 5.037 yards/second compared to being 5.04 yards/second with 5 points to Increased Speed. The increase is ~0.05%.
Also, where else could you put the points? Shout? Nat Res? Shout is pretty much useless and you will have enough points to it by the time your barb is perfect, meaning lvl 95. Nat Res in turn hits diminishing returns after a few points.
However, where the points to Increased Speed really come to play is not with pubsetup, but with a setup that has +5 skills. Then, your Final Run Speed would be 2.53 compared to being 2.536 with 5 base points. The increase is ~0.2%. Not a huge difference. But as far as I've heard, the extra points, of course, allow faster triwhirls, more desynched triwhirls, but apparently they allow you to also outrun spirits while decrepified.
However, I'm very interested, where do you put the extra four points?
there's always room for more points into leap for a bvc. as far as i'm concerned, that extra 4% of frw from those extra points will be negligible, especially when you're dueling in such a teleport-based environment.
there's always room for more points into leap for a bvc. as far as i'm concerned, that extra 4% of frw from those extra points will be negligible, especially when you're dueling in such a teleport-based environment.
No there's no. Three of my four BvCs all have 20 points to Leap. So no more points to Leap. Leap is either 13, 14 or 20 points, there's no in-betweenies.
Actually, that teleport can mean a lot in duels where your enemy teleports on top of you to deal close-range damage, such as Windies and tele Hammerdins. And your FRW will equal to craptastic versus a necromancer with Decrepify. Oh, and your triwhirls will be slightly faster, meaning more damage over time.
No there's no. Three of my four BvCs all have 20 points to Leap. So no more points to Leap. Leap is either 13, 14 or 20 points, there's no in-betweenies.
Actually, that teleport can mean a lot in duels where your enemy teleports on top of you to deal close-range damage, such as Windies and tele Hammerdins. And your FRW will equal to craptastic versus a necromancer with Decrepify. Oh, and your triwhirls will be slightly faster, meaning more damage over time.
if you have that many points in leap, i'm sure theres room for you to put points into shout or nat res or even zerk, all of which would be much more beneficial than inc speed imo. i really don't think you could notice that extra 4% of frw. if you do, then more power to you.
...and each point into leap adds to the kb radius. the kb radius is different from the radius listed on the char screen, which iirc is just the distance you can leap.
i thought someone that throws around all this information would know that the movement speed of the whirlwind doesn't increase damage output.
if you have that many points in leap, i'm sure theres room for you to put points into shout or nat res or even zerk, all of which would be much more beneficial than inc speed imo.
I already have 6 points in Nat Res and I would need 1-3 points to get even a single point of all res.
Zerk is useless, it's only used versus Summoners and in some telezerk cases. Thus, the remaining points that I have go to shout. Having 9378 defense with a Scarab Enigma is quite fine with me.
if you do, then more power to you. and each point into leap adds to the kb radius. the kb radius is different from the radius listed on the char screen, which iirc is just the distance you can leap.
Do you think that I don't know all of this? 13 or 14 points is for 19 total, so that you have a knockback that reaches the whole screen.
i thought someone that throws around all this information would know that the movement speed of the whirlwind doesn't increase damage output.
You don't see the whole picture, it seems. Let me put it in simple terms.
Faster movement -> a triwhirl is done in shorter amount of time -> more triwhirls in a shorter amount of time -> more damage
This is true because you don't score more than a single hitcheck per whirl during a proper triwhirl. And it's impossible to reduce it to no hitcheck, unless you are somehow capable of doing a triwhirl in 0.36 seconds or 3x0.12 seconds. I don't see that happening. Do you? You would need to waste 0.16 seconds per sidewhirl to get three hitchecks during a triwhirl.
I already have 6 points in Nat Res and I would need 1-3 points to get even a single point of all res.
Zerk is useless, it's only used versus Summoners and in some telezerk cases. Thus, the remaining points that I have go to shout. Having 9378 defense with a Scarab Enigma is quite fine with me.
Do you think that I don't know all of this?
You don't see the whole picture, it seems. Let me put it in simple terms.
Faster movement -> a triwhirl is done in shorter amount of time -> more triwhirls in a shorter amount of time -> more damage
This is true because you don't score more than a single hitcheck per whirl during a proper triwhirl. And it's impossible to reduce it to no hitcheck, unless you are somehow capable of doing a triwhirl in 0.36 seconds or 3x0.12 seconds. I don't see that happening. Do you? You would need to waste 0.16 seconds per sidewhirl to get three hitchecks during a triwhirl.
you responded to my first post with "Leap is either 13, 14 or 20 points, there's no in-betweenies." if you know that the kb increases linearly with the number of points invested, what other reason is there to limit the point investment into those discreet levels?
and no, faster movement does not affect how fast the game calculates the hit checks. as long as your whirl is in range, the hit checks will keep calculating at whatever rate your weapons deem. the idea that ww only hits once per ww is ludicrous; AS even says that you get two free hit-checks at frames 4 and 8 after you start a whirl, and then you get at least one more after frame 8. i just dueled my friends es sorc, and i counted 5 hits in one long whirl, as he teleported back into my whirl just to test the hit checks.
even if whirlwind only granted 1 hit check after the initial 2 "freebies", that would be 12 frames worth of damage, which is 12/25 = .48 seconds per whirl, which is not that all that impossible.
p.s. i've only been actively posting here about a week, and i'm already annoyed by your disposition with everything. you really need to calm down.
you responded to my first post with "Leap is either 13, 14 or 20 points, there's no in-betweenies." if you know that the kb increases linearly with the number of points invested, what other reason is there to limit the point investment into those discreet levels?
By in-betweenies I means that it would be useless to have something between the 1.5 screens offered by 20 points or the full screen offered by 14.
and no, faster movement does not affect how fast the game calculates the hit checks.
Nowhere did I claim so.
even if whirlwind only granted 1 hit check after the initial 2 "freebies", that would be 12 frames worth of damage, which is 12/25 = .48 seconds per whirl, which is not that all that impossible.
You see, you're not seeing the whole picture. Unless your full triwhirl takes less than 11 frames (0.44 second), you will be getting three hitchecks no matter what. Your movement speed won't affect that, there's just no way to complete a triwhirl in 8-11 frames (0.32-0.44 seconds).
The point is not whether your whirls take longer than 12 frames each, but that they take longer than 4 frames each.
As long as you get at least a single hitcheck per side, meaning at least 4 frames per side or 12 frames per triwhirl, more speed is better, because there's just no way you will ever do a triwhirl in 11 frames.
p.s. i've only been actively posting here about a week, and i'm already annoyed by your disposition with everything. you really need to calm down.
And?
By in-betweenies I means that it would be useless to have something between the 1.5 screens offered by 20 points or the full screen offered by 14.
Nowhere did I claim so.
You see, you're not seeing the whole picture. Unless your full triwhirl takes less than 11 frames (0.44 second), you will be getting three hitchecks no matter what. Your movement speed won't affect that, there's just no way to complete a triwhirl in 8-11 frames (0.32-0.44 seconds).
The point is not whether your whirls take longer than 12 frames each, but that they take longer than 4 frames each.
As long as you get at least a single hitcheck per side, meaning at least 4 frames per side or 12 frames per triwhirl, more speed is better, because there's just no way you will ever do a triwhirl in 11 frames.
And?
i don't understand your point. i think you missed that whirlwind hits more than once per whirl. like i said before, i hit the same target 5 separate times when the sorc teleported back into my whirl. even when she stood still, a whirl right through her hit 4 times.
if the hit-checks occur at a constant rate of 4 frames per check, whats the point of shortening each whirl? if you have 2 weapons that hit at 4 frames, it won't matter how quickly you recast whirl. as long as you stay in range to hit the target, whirl will keep hitting. having a slow whirlwind might actually be beneficial because it keeps you in range longer, meaning you need to spend less mana over time for the same amount of hit checks.
telling you to calm down was the point. a calmer mindset should be the end in itself.
i don't understand your point. i think you missed that whirlwind hits more than once per whirl. like i said before, i hit the same target 5 separate times when the sorc teleported back into my whirl. even when she stood still, a whirl right through her hit 4 times.
That is not the point. The point is that you won't get 4-5 hitchecks during a short whirl.
if the hit-checks occur at a constant rate of 4 frames per check, whats the point of shortening each whirl? if you have 2 weapons that hit at 4 frames, it won't matter how quickly you recast whirl. as long as you stay in range to hit the target, whirl will keep hitting. having a slow whirlwind might actually be beneficial because it keeps you in range longer, meaning you need to spend less mana over time for the same amount of hit checks.
Indeed, they occur at a steady rate of 4 frames. Short whirls are there to ensure that you are always in range. And they are in the form of triangle in order to avoid being owned by namelocking casters as you will move faster than they can cast. Which is also one of the points for faster triwhirls.
Slow whirls mean you are a lot easier to hit, which in turn means you take a lot more damage which means you will be losing more.
telling you to calm down was the point. a calmer mindset should be the end in itself.
Hah, I am perfectly calm. Which in turn means you fail.
That is not the point. The point is that you won't get 4-5 hitchecks during a short whirl.
Indeed, they occur at a steady rate of 4 frames. Short whirls are there to ensure that you are always in range. And they are in the form of triangle in order to avoid being owned by namelocking casters as you will move faster than they can cast. Which is also one of the points for faster triwhirls.
Slow whirls mean you are a lot easier to hit, which in turn means you take a lot more damage which means you will be losing more.
so if you are agreeing with the fact that given the chance, whirls can hit more than 3 times, and that whirls check at a constant speed, what part of having a slower speed lowers damage output?
given that your whirls stay within hitting range of the target (which is just as difficult at any speed), regardless of the speed your whirl is traveling, the hit checks will occur every 4 seconds. that means the damage output will be exactly the same. having a slower whirl will actually keep you over your target for a longer period of time per whirl.
if you want to be technical, a slower whirl may increase output, because it lowers the number of whirl restarts, which have the possibility to create a delay of up to 7 frames between hit checks; if you restart a whirl after the 11th frame, that will be 3 frames past the last hit check + 4 more frames until the first freebie.
i totally agree with the benefits to a faster whirl in dodging attacks and for movement reasons, but thats not what we're arguing.
Hah, I am perfectly calm. Which in turn means you fail.
fantastic.
Summerfun
13-07-2007, 01:56
Tri whirls dont have to that short, witha range 3 weapon you can actually do a pretty large tri whirl without ever getting out of range.
If you have two comps and 2 cd-keys try giving a random barb flamebelow and then leap, while in the air use the inferno skill.
When the barb lands again he cant move, but he allso cant take any dmg.
This is a pretty good bug when testing your tri whirls.
given that your whirls stay within hitting range of the target (which is just as difficult at any speed), regardless of the speed your whirl is traveling, the hit checks will occur every 4 seconds. that means the damage output will be exactly the same. having a slower whirl will actually keep you over your target for a longer period of time per whirl.
Being in range or not is of no question with triwhirls. So that is not an argument.
if you want to be technical, a slower whirl may increase output, because it lowers the number of whirl restarts, which have the possibility to create a delay of up to 7 frames between hit checks; if you restart a whirl after the 11th frame, that will be 3 frames past the last hit check + 4 more frames until the first freebie.
There's no restarting. And slower whirls mean you are quite an easy target against casters who namelock you during your triwhirl.
If you have two comps and 2 cd-keys try giving a random barb flamebelow and then leap, while in the air use the inferno skill.
When the barb lands again he cant move, but he allso cant take any dmg.
This is a pretty good bug when testing your tri whirls.
I use that very same bug to train my triwhirls. Since there's a bug with the bugged barb and the Firestorm in Torch, you will be able to regain your mana after it procs. Or so it has been to me at least.
And with Venom, you will clearly see when your hits are connecting.
Being in range or not is of no question with triwhirls. So that is not an argument.
staying in range is fundamental to the amount of damage you do with a whirl over time, especially now that we've agreed that speed and "limit" to the number of hit checks are constant between the two.
There's no restarting.
how is there no restarting? each time you recast whirl, you restart the whirls. if that wasn't the case, you wouldn't have those intermittent pauses between whirls when you suffer from bad ping.
And slower whirls mean you are quite an easy target against casters who namelock you during your triwhirl.
i still haven't heard a valid argument that counters my points. are you just completely disregarding the topic of the debate?
how is there no restarting? each time you recast whirl, you restart the whirls. if that wasn't the case, you wouldn't have those intermittent pauses between whirls when you suffer from bad ping.
There is no restarting, proper triwhirls is the same as holding down your mouse and moving it in a circular pattern. So, it's actually a constant whirl.
And that's exactly why whatever argument I presented was faulty, because I was thinking of each of the side whirls as individual whirls, with a new click between each of them.
i still haven't heard a valid argument that counters my points. are you just completely disregarding the topic of the debate?
Excuse me, but the topic of the debate is still whether or not the extra points to Increased Speed are worth them and I believe I've proven they are. Or do you claim that the free safety you gain for putting more points is not worth it?
There is no restarting, proper triwhirls is the same as holding down your mouse and moving it in a circular pattern. So, it's actually a constant whirl.
And that's exactly why whatever argument I presented was faulty, because I was thinking of each of the side whirls as individual whirls, with a new click between each of them.
just because you hold down the mouse button doesn't mean you don't recast whirl. every time you change directions, that marks a new whirl, with the new freebie hit-checks. thats why even AS tells you to use small whirls, because it restarts the whirls and gives you those freebies in the beginning. what you're saying is that holding down fireball would firing continuations of the last one.
it shouldn't whether you reclick or hold down the mouse. they'll all be new whirls. in either case, no matter what speed you move, as long as you stay within hitting range of the target, will hit at 4 frames per hit check, which means its the same damage output.
Excuse me, but the topic of the debate is still whether or not the extra points to Increased Speed are worth them and I believe I've proven they are. Or do you claim that the free safety you gain for putting more points is not worth it?
the point i was specifically debating was your claim that inc spead increases your damage output. that was what i argued against.
and yes, its not my claim, but rather my opinion, that the "free safety" you get from the extra 4% frw is not worth the 4 points invested to achieve it.
just because you hold down the mouse button doesn't mean you don't recast whirl. every time you change directions, that marks a new whirl, with the new freebie hit-checks. thats why even AS tells you to use small whirls, because it restarts the whirls and gives you those freebies in the beginning. what you're saying is that holding down fireball would firing continuations of the last one.
So, what you are claiming is that if I do a 12 frames long triwhirl, I will only have three Grief-only hits? Huh?
the point i was specifically debating was your claim that inc spead increases your damage output. that was what i argued against.
and yes, its not my claim, but rather my opinion, that the "free safety" you get from the extra 4% frw is not worth the 4 points invested to achieve it.
Actually, it is. The only other thing you will have is Shout. And Shout is only useful against a handful of physical attackers, whereas the extra IAS will come in handy against each and every single of your opponents.
So, what you are claiming is that if I do a 12 frames long triwhirl, I will only have three Grief-only hits? Huh?
yes, that is exactly what i'm saying. if your whirl lasts for 12 frames, you will score hit checks for both your weapons at 4, 8, and 12 frames. quoted from AS:
"When dual-wielding, both weapons try to score a hit against the target. In other words, the game does a hit-check for each weapon. Since both weapons are given the chance to score a hit, the damage done over time is roughly the sum of the damage of both weapons"
like i said before, i whirled through a sorc standing still with ES (that flashes everytime it gets hit), and counted 4 separate hits.
Actually, it is. The only other thing you will have is Shout. And Shout is only useful against a handful of physical attackers, whereas the extra IAS will come in handy against each and every single of your opponents.
i'm assuming you meant FRW. how is ww velocity useful in ww vs ww? there are other examples, but i don't feel like listing them for literal emphasis. however, i'm not arguing that extra speed isn't useful; i'm arguing that 4% isn't worth the 4 points, and i still stand by that.
yes, that is exactly what i'm saying. if your whirl lasts for 12 frames, you will score hit checks for both your weapons at 4, 8, and 12 frames. quoted from AS:
"When dual-wielding, both weapons try to score a hit against the target. In other words, the game does a hit-check for each weapon. Since both weapons are given the chance to score a hit, the damage done over time is roughly the sum of the damage of both weapons"
like i said before, i whirled through a sorc standing still with ES (that flashes everytime it gets hit), and counted 4 separate hits.
You only get hitcheck for the primary weapon on the 4th frame. With that, according to you, if my triwhirls did last 12 frames each, I would have 4 frame whirls, meaning my hitchecks would all be only for Grief. Which in turn would make no sense.
i'm assuming you meant FRW. how is ww velocity useful in ww vs ww? there are other examples, but i don't feel like listing them for literal emphasis. however, i'm not arguing that extra speed isn't useful; i'm arguing that 4% isn't worth the 4 points, and i still stand by that.
4%? Yes, 4% with the pubsetup. Try 5-7% with stack setup.
And BvCs don't duel other barbarians whirl for whirl. Or well, they might duel other BvCs that way, but then it just comes down to who has the better gear.
You only get hitcheck for the primary weapon on the 4th frame. With that, according to you, if my triwhirls did last 12 frames each, I would have 4 frame whirls, meaning my hitchecks would all be only for Grief. Which in turn would make no sense.
each weapon in your hands get a hit check every 4 frames. if it didn't, it wouldn't be true that a dual-wielding barb would do double the damage, which is what AS (and common sense) says is true. i meant that every 4 frames, grief, along with the beast, would get hit checks, not that it would skip out on beast if you only used the first hit check over and over again.
and like i said before, a triwhirl is separated into 3 separate whirls. my point was that if each of your side whirls lasted theoretically for 12 frames, it would trigger 3 sets of hit checks.
but it doesn't matter. as long as the hit checks occur at the same rate (which it does), as long as you stay in range the entire time (thats what dod is for), it doesn't matter how quickly you recast whirlwind. hit checks for both weapons will still occur at multiples of 4.
4%? Yes, 4% with the pubsetup. Try 5-7% with stack setup.
And BvCs don't duel other barbarians whirl for whirl. Or well, they might duel other BvCs that way, but then it just comes down to who has the better gear.
even so, i don't consider 5-7% is not all that much, when considering you already have ~35-40% from the skill, and 75% frw from the items.
each weapon in your hands get a hit check every 4 frames. if it didn't, it wouldn't be true that a dual-wielding barb would do double the damage, which is what AS (and common sense) says is true. i meant that every 4 frames, grief, along with the beast, would get hit checks, not that it would skip out on beast if you only used the first hit check over and over again.
It's a known fact that on the first 4th frame, only the primary weapon has a hitcheck.
According to what you say, all the whirls are separate, thus, if a triwhirl consisted of three 4 frame long whirls, only Grief could ever hit. Which doesn't make sense.
and like i said before, a triwhirl is separated into 3 separate whirls. my point was that if each of your side whirls lasted theoretically for 12 frames, it would trigger 3 sets of hit checks.
12 frames, even in theory, is ridiculous, for a single whirl. More like 8 frames per whirl.
even so, i don't consider 5-7% is not all that much, when considering you already have ~35-40% from the skill, and 75% frw from the items.
Actually, with 1 point, you are getting 30-38% FRW from Increased Speed with 1 point. And you do realize that Skill FRW means a lot more than Item FRW?
All my BvC's has just 1 point in it.
Think thats more than enough with 30Frw from boots and 45Frw from enigma.
Thats just my opinion
1 point is not enough;
as running speed is usefull in certain cases like vs necs as u can out run bs as well as fireballs from sorc.
Secondly faster tri whirling is much better to be able to do and being able to desync whirls is also good. Also i find staying in range too long versus certain opponments not good at.
Thirdly hf+ tele smiters will have give u a hard time as with slow from gear+ hf u will be crawling meaning u can get ripped pretty bad by barbs layed out like this
edit
lolo brain fart hmm how much does 1 point in this skill net u again?
also i agree shout to me is useless only a few mele chars this will save u from and without block its kinda pointless.
Natural res is useless after 4 points as its hits bad dimminishing returns i.e 1point for 1-2 res etc.
It's a known fact that on the first 4th frame, only the primary weapon has a hitcheck.
According to what you say, all the whirls are separate, thus, if a triwhirl consisted of three 4 frame long whirls, only Grief could ever hit. Which doesn't make sense.
12 frames, even in theory, is ridiculous, for a single whirl. More like 8 frames per whirl.
Actually, with 1 point, you are getting 30-38% FRW from Increased Speed with 1 point. And you do realize that Skill FRW means a lot more than Item FRW?
AS: Barbarians wielding weapons with slow Whirlwind speeds should try and keep their whirls very short, so as to take full advantage of the 4th and 8th frame "free" hits. Hold down the Whirlwind button and hover the cursor just right after the place where the Whirlwind starts. The free hits are taken and almost immediately after it, the Whirlwind stops. Then, since the Whirlwind button is still being pressed, a new Whirlwind starts and we get back the free hits of frames 4 and 8.
not really sure how else to put it.
the 12 frame whirl is just for discussion's sake, to make the point that if you consider all your sequential whirls the same whirl, you'll have hit checks every 4 frames, regardless of how temporally short your whirls are. but even so, 12 frame whirl isn't all that ridiculous; on a faded sin ww, i was able to hit 4 times in one whirl, so even if it isn't practical, its absolutely possible.
but this is all beside the point. no matter how fast you travel around the opponent, if your hit checks occur every 4 frames, it'll be the same damage.
how is one point taking you from 30-38%? after the initial point investment, the frw goes up from 30 -> 32 -> 33 -> 35 -> 36 -> 37 -> 38. if you don't change gear, i count 6 points required to make that increase. and of course i know item frw% is more effective than item frw%, but that doesn't mean that 75% from items is no big deal. are you talking about comparing 1% skill frw to item frw%?
Summerfun
13-07-2007, 04:55
I will never agree with you on this topic.
My bvc is by far fast enough to out run spirits and FBs
I doubt that you would ever feel a difference even with 10 hard points in it.
i know item frw% is more effective than item frw%
There is a free one for you TienJe :D
so, it looks like whats being said here is that when performing a triwhirl, and the attack remains continuosly in range, frw just gets the job done faster with no loss of hit checks?
I suppose hit checks may not change, but on the other hand if you were dueling say, a pub-shift smiter, and you were using long ww's to clip them, you will go out of range much faster. So some of those hit checks will occur before and after you are out of range. This is defineatly obvious in-game if you long whirl a pack of monsters with a fast rw barb vs a slow rw barb since you'll tend to skip over alot of them. More extreme the other way around if your ww'n and your frozen and cursed with decrep, you hit everything-alot.
I don't think that hit checks/rw has been tabulated together, but i think it would be interesting if it was. In the end, seems like more a personal preference, playing style and skill in dueling. Seems like everyone agrees thats its important to have, but it doesn't seem obvious +/- points either way. Statistically not as obvious as say, having 4 frame ww attack speed.
AS: Barbarians wielding weapons with slow Whirlwind speeds should try and keep their whirls very short, so as to take full advantage of the 4th and 8th frame "free" hits. Hold down the Whirlwind button and hover the cursor just right after the place where the Whirlwind starts. The free hits are taken and almost immediately after it, the Whirlwind stops. Then, since the Whirlwind button is still being pressed, a new Whirlwind starts and we get back the free hits of frames 4 and 8.
You do realize that the Arreat Summit is not kept up by Blizzard, but a single guy? And if you look at the errors history, some quite terrible things are there. It's quite a known fact that on the first 4th frame of whirlwind, only the primary weapon would get a hitcheck.
how is one point taking you from 30-38%? after the initial point investment, the frw goes up from 30 -> 32 -> 33 -> 35 -> 36 -> 37 -> 38. if you don't change gear, i count 6 points required to make that increase. and of course i know item frw% is more effective than item frw%, but that doesn't mean that 75% from items is no big deal. are you talking about comparing 1% skill frw to item frw%?
In the highest skill setup, 1 point means 39% FRW compared to being 42% with 6 points.
In pubsetup, 1 point means 37% FRW compared to being 41% with 6 points.
In the lowest skill setup, 1 point means 30% FRW compared to being 37% with 6 point.
See? Compare the changes between the two setups: one changes between 30 and 39, the other changed between 37 and 42.
You do realize that the Arreat Summit is not kept up by Blizzard, but a single guy? And if you look at the errors history, some quite terrible things are there. It's quite a known fact that on the first 4th frame of whirlwind, only the primary weapon would get a hitcheck.
yes, i understand there are errors on AS, but it makes sense from a logical perspective as well. (most websites only have one webmaster, so they are kept up by one person as well. i would hope there is some sort of information feedback system in place when a site is hosted on battle.net, and after the game has been around for this long, i would imagine most of the mistakes to be caught.) when someone holds down whirl on an environment with 150+ ping, the breaks between the whirls are very evident. d2 doesn't differentiate whether you hold down the right mouse button, or whether you reclick to cast it; it's all one packet sent to the server the moment your last cast stops. i actually find the notion of having a continuous whirl more illogical than having only grief hit if you make 4-7 frame long whirls.
In the highest skill setup, 1 point means 39% FRW compared to being 42% with 6 points.
In pubsetup, 1 point means 37% FRW compared to being 41% with 6 points.
In the lowest skill setup, 1 point means 30% FRW compared to being 37% with 6 point.
See? Compare the changes between the two setups: one changes between 30 and 39, the other changed between 37 and 42.
that makes sense; its not how i interpreted your original statement. a typo i guess.
Actually, with 1 point, you are getting 30-38% FRW from Increased Speed with 1 point. And you do realize that Skill FRW means a lot more than Item FRW?
still... 5 extra points, even in your lowest skill setup, takes you from 9.2 to 9.48 yrd/sec, an total increase of just 3%, isn't worth it in my opinion, especially when you consider how much teleporting you do.
anyway, we've made these arguments countless times.
I don't think that hit checks/rw has been tabulated together, but i think it would be interesting if it was. In the end, seems like more a personal preference, playing style and skill in dueling. Seems like everyone agrees thats its important to have, but it doesn't seem obvious +/- points either way. Statistically not as obvious as say, having 4 frame ww attack speed.
like you said, there's a definite use for extra frw, but 5 skill points for a maximum 3% increase in speed (only 1.6% in pub setup) just isn't worth it to me.
mainaman
17-07-2007, 06:17
CeOlba is wrong as usual. he still doesn't have a clue about how ww works, information that's been around on this forum for 3+years. all this has been explained by blobs, mcm and others before, here it is again for newer players and some people who cant digest things even if they are mouth-fed.
there is no such thing as "continous ww", it resets every time you land on the point you clicked in the first place, even if you didn't release your mouse button. there is also a 4 frame pause between every ww, not noticeable clientside on the realms but very visible in single player. this is why short (less than 8 frames) whirls suck; you only get one hitcheck with your primary weapon but you waste a lot of frames swinging air. you should always aim for 12 frame whirls to get 3 hitchecks (primary, primary+secondary, primary+secondary), i.e. the perfect triangle ww is 48 frames long and consists of three 12-frame whirls, all in range.
frw doesn't matter, if you whirl slower you just adapt and tighten your triangle accordingly like every thinking person would do. as tienje said, the worst thing that can happen is that you make a 7-frame ww, then you would have a ten frame gap between hitchecks, which gives chars with low action frames (sorcs/necs) a chance to escape. some people never learn to whirl properly, they make too small whirls and only get one hitcheck/whirl instead of five. needless to say they will get outtanked by everything.
CeOlba is wrong as usual. he still doesn't have a clue about how ww works, information that's been around on this forum for 3+years. all this has been explained by blobs, mcm and others before, here it is again for newer players and some people who cant digest things even if they are mouth-fed.
Well, I'm sorry for disregarding blobs' BvC guide when it was posted because of the mistyping he did at the top, calling a BvC a two-handed barbarian.
And no, I've not found it necessary for me to know each and every quirk about the game. One of those quirks happens to be the mechanics of the attacks in the game. Unless they would be absolutely must to know, there would be no reason to bother with them. But yes, I am interested in them and I thank you for the information you've provided.
mainaman
17-07-2007, 17:53
Well, I'm sorry for disregarding blobs' BvC guide when it was posted because of the mistyping he did at the top, calling a BvC a two-handed barbarian.
And no, I've not found it necessary for me to know each and every quirk about the game. One of those quirks happens to be the mechanics of the attacks in the game. Unless they would be absolutely must to know, there would be no reason to bother with them. But yes, I am interested in them and I thank you for the information you've provided.if you don't think its important to know the mechanics of ww then why argue about it, as if you knew it?
and for a bvc 3 pts in incr speed is optimal, altho you could go less,as with pub set up you get the 40% frw and with dr set up with angelics you get 38% no biggie you still desynch like crazy; even with 1 pt in incr speed you desynch just fine...
Summerfun
18-07-2007, 09:34
Thanks Mainaman.
Finaly someone who could convince him
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.