View Full Version : WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0
WW Ghost Assassin Guide v2.0
Version History
V1.1 - added info on equipment options and table of contents
V1.2 - expanded strategies and comments on dragon flight
V1.3 - added better explanation of trap laying speed, hammerdin strategies, added ghost statistic section (HoF), and fixed some numbers in stat and break point sections
V1.4 - added comments on claw types and stat allocation, added optional gear section for different setups, added comments on dragon flight in general tactics
V1.5 - expanded hammerdin strategies, added liberator strategy, added Grooner’s helm socket choice, expanded explanation of mind blast stun effects, overall improvements
V1.6 - added WSM bugging explanation, and updated current stats/setup.
V1.7 - added explanation of Venom and Physical Ghost Variants and example setups for both.
V1.8 - added dueling clips for different classes. changed up barb and trapper strats to include widowmaker.
V1.9 - clarified NextDelay feature of WoF and consequences
V2.0 - massive additions (WSM sections) and final editing
Table of Contents
Introduction
a. About Me
b. Why Ghosts?
c. Disclaimer
Stat Allocation
a. Starting Stats
b. Per Level
c. Stat Bonuses
d. Placing Stats
Skills
a. Notes
b. Allocation
c. Notes and Explanations
Equipment
a. Breakpoints
b. Equipment Options
c. WSM Bugging
d. Charm and Socket Options
e. Venom and Physical Ghost Spectrum
Tactics
a. Hotkeys
b. General Tactics
Class-Specific Strategies
a. Sorceress
b. Necromancer
c. Druid
d. Amazon
e. Paladin
f. Assassin
g. Barbarian
h. Team Dueling
My Ghost
a. Major Stats
b. Setup
c. Screenshot
Credits
1. Introduction
About Me
My account name is *TienJe on USWest NL. I've dueled in GM guilds and clans since .09, and I’ve always kept builds and strategies to myself, but I'm making an exception for such a fun and undervalued character. This character has served me so well that I felt I should give other people the chance to enjoy it as well. My ghost is Namelock on USWest NL. I'm always available for duels or questions. But, I'm not important. Let's get on with the guide.
Why Ghosts?
Ghosts have been around for a while, but still are often times confused with hybrids and whirlwind assassins. Ghosts are a mix of those two builds. They teleport and have traps like a hybrid, but emphasize the WW damage like a WW assassin. A ghost is basically a pure WW assassin armed with teleport and low level traps for stun. As a result of their build, they come equipped with high level Mind Blast and Fade.
Ghosts are perhaps the perfect anti-caster character; the stun this character puts out is almost impossible to escape, and the strong whirlwind deals damage in multiple elements, making it very hard to fully resist. Claw block grants unparalleled protection, blade shield + venom + whirlwind take care of minion stack, and venom works extremely well against most caster types. These assassins should never be compared to BvC’s, as although they both use whirlwind, fast breakpoints, and stun, the style is completely different. This isn’t to say that the ghost is a one trick pony. The nature of whirlwind gives the ghost an advantage over most melee, making it quite effective against most enemies, even other anti-caster characters.
It should be noted, however, that ghosts are probably the most hotkey/skill/micro intensive class I have played so far, but there is no doubt that she is one of the most fun and effective characters when played correctly. It’s probably the only character where you can have total control over the enemy during a duel.
Disclaimer
I do not claim to be the inventor of the build; this is just my interpretation. The videos are for didactic purposes only.
2. Stat Allocation
Starting Stats
Strength- 20
Dexterity- 20
Vitality- 20
Energy- 25
Hit Points- 50
Stamina- 95
Mana- 25
Per level
Life +2
Stamina +1
Mana +1.5
Stat Bonuses
STR- adds claw and kick damage and allows for wearing equipment
DEX- adds kick damage and attack rating, and allows for wearing equipment.
VIT- adds life
ENG- adds mana
1 Vitality point gives 3 Life
1 Vitality point gives 1.5 Stamina
1 Energy point gives 1.5 Mana
Placing Stats
Stat allocation for a ghost should be the same as most other characters in this day and age. Place enough STR and DEX for your equipment, and then pump VIT. Don’t bother over-placing strength for damage; most of your damage will come from venom, and the ghost benefits from more survivability from the extra VIT. DEX should be kept at a minimum as well, as claw block will take care of your block without any DEX, though if you find your AR is significantly low, you may pump a few points in. However, investment in DEX is not recommended, as changing around setups and items in the inventory will give much more AR than DEX will. Just remember that if your life is too low, your ghost will have a hard time, because it is a very offensive character and requires you to be able to take a few hits. You should aim for at least 3.7k HP.
3. Skills
Skill Descriptions
Claw Mastery- adds damage, attack rating, and deadly strike.
Venom- adds poison damage applied every .4 seconds at high levels.
Claw Block- % chance to block all attacks
Burst of Speed- adds IAS and FRW.
Fade- adds 1% DR per level, lowers curse duration, and adds resistance.
Mind Blast- Stuns characters, adds stun duration, and does minor damage.
Wake of Fire- Sends out 5 V’s of fire closely packed.
Lightning Sentry- Sends out 10 lightning shots.
Whirlwind- Same as barbarians WW skill.
Blade Shield- Adds spinning shield around assassin that deals damage when enemies are close
Blade Fury- shoots fast “ninja stars” a distance of about 30 yards, similarly to Sorceress’ inferno
Shadow Master- Minion that uses all assassin skills. Has +resist all and clawblock.
Dragon Flight- Flying kick to enemy that deals kick damage.
Skill Allocation
Claw Mastery- 20
Venom- 20
Mind Blast- 20
Claw Block- enough for 60%
Fade- pump until 50% DR with equipment
Wake of Fire- 1
Lightning Sentry- 0 (1 if you like using LS or have extra points)
Blade Shield- 1
Blade Fury- 1
Shadow Master- 1
Dragon Flight- 0 (1 if you really want it)
All other prereqs- 1
Depending on your gear and +skills (explained later), you may have some extra points. You can throw these into more fade, claw block, lightning sentry, higher shadow, just about anything. Some ghosts opt for a Dragon Talon/WW or Dragon Claw/WW hybrid ghost, but I have not tried that setup yet so I can’t comment. Usually, 1 point in either Dragon Claw or Dragon Talon will do just fine.
Skill Notes and Explanations
Venom- Venom is your main damage skill. At high levels, it applies damage every .4 seconds, which is every 10 frames (there are 25 frames per second). Whirlwind hits every 4 frames, so it should be noted that venom does not deal full damage every time WW hits. % Poison Damage is currently bugged and is applied twice, similar to enchant + fire mastery. % Poison Damage gets applied once when you cast venom, and once more when it is applied to the enemy. Trang’s glove’s 25% Poison Damage is actually 56.25% (1.25*1.25) more damage.
Whirlwind- This is your main attack. If built correctly, your ghost’s whirlwind will hit every 4 frames. There are a few mechanics that should be mentioned however. For one, at the first hit check at 4 frames, only the primary weapon gets a chance to hit. Beginning at the 8th frame, both weapons will get a chance to hit every 4 frames. Each weapon hits independently, so the open wounds and deadly strike is calculated per weapon (50% on each claw does not equal 100% total). Because only the primary weapon hits in the first hit check, it makes sense to make your whirls as long as possible, while staying in striking range. Use DoD to your advantage (explained later). Whirlwind is uninterruptable and casts almost instantly, so use it to escape stunlocks. Your ghost will be able to continuously whirl a target while taking damage.
Claw Block- This skill makes the ghost a powerful anti-caster. It blocks ALL attacks. That includes all elemental attacks including aura damage, leap, and of course physical. The blocking speed is unaffected by Faster Block Rate %, and the chance to block is unaffected by Increased Block Rate %.
Burst of Speed- Ghosts should not be using this for the majority of the duels. They will be teleporting and already laying traps at 9 FPA, rendering BoS basically useless. The only time you will be using this is against trappers and necros (explained later).
Wake of Fire- Due to the overpowered stunning of WoF in earlier patches, Blizzard has added a .16 second (4 frame) NextDelay to WoF, which means that the stun on WoF is limited. After your WoF hits, the hidden NextDelay timer will run for .16 seconds, and until that timer runs out, although WoF may be graphically hitting the target, will not deal any damage. This NextDelay timer means that the fastest WoF will damage an opponent is once every 4 frames. However, you need to have multiple WoF firing to get to the frequency where the NextDelay has an effect. As a corollary, that means that stacking copious amounts of WoF under a target will not be beneficial, as they cannot get stunned any faster than once per 4 frames. 2 WoF will fire in between each other’s waves, and so any more than 2 traps on the floor is usually useless. Stick with 1 trap when being offensive, and 2 when you are defensive or have time. Thanks to Speederländer for the clarification regarding the delay. It should be noted that even with the NextDelay nerf, the stun from WoF is unparalleled.
Lightning Sentry- Many assassins like to use this skill, but I personally don’t. It doesn’t stun well enough, pure and simple. LS does not have the NextDelay feature that WoF does, but the gap between lightning shots is slow, so you need to cast 5 for it to keep someone in a stun lock. It’s not worth the skills you spend to get to it, unless you have tons of skills left over. Try to get it in a claw if you want to use it.
Blade Shield- This skill is often overlooked. Blade shield is a powerhouse. It gets weapon damage, which means it also hits with venom. It is unblockable, and deals damage every ~2 seconds when someone is standing over you. This will happen a lot as it will even apply damage while you are whirling them. You can see the use of it when a druid teleports on you. All the wolves should die within 1 hit.
Blade Fury- This skill also hits with weapon damage, meaning again, it gets Venom, though it differs from Blade Shield in that it also gets open wounds (with the ranged missile reduction). Useful in some circumstances, especially against sorcs that meteor or cast Blizzard over themselves, or against smiters that just shift-smite. It’s a great way to get camping characters to move. However, even though the skill seems to have no AR, it is not ITD. Some of the ninja stars will miss. Enemy defense has a definite effect on hit rate. This skill requires caution, since the cast time is unaffected by FCR and IAS and is decently long, leaving you open to quick attacks while you are in your casting animation.
Shadow Master- This summon will use the skills that you put the most skills into. As a result, it will most often use fade and venom, have Clawblock, and MB like a madman. It’ll help land an initial hit when you teleport on the enemy as well, keeping them in place long enough to start a whirl sequence. It’s everything you ever wanted in a minion. Note that the shadow has the ability to MB a target well beyond your screen’s range, so expect some GMod/AA accusations. They also seem to cast MB a lot while are you teleporting. At skill level 17, Shadow Master’s begin to spawn with a random rare ammy, giving them the chance (quite a large chance actually) of being immune to the elements. Also note that Shadow Master’s will be immune to the elements when they cast Fade as well, so pumping your shadow to lvl 17 may not be that useful.
Dragon Flight- One of the most overrated sin skills in my opinion. DF is a 24 frame monster. In other words, it takes almost 1 full second to cast, and it leaves you with a nasty animation delay on top of the cast delay after you hit them too, completely open to attacks. It maybe be useful vs. some vita chars, but is not worth enough to pump skills through all the prereqs. Get it on a claw if you want it.
Mind Blast- Mind blast will stun the character as soon as you cast it, but it also has another lasting effect that a lot of non-assassin players don’t quite understand. If you look at the character that has just been hit by MB, they have a swirly animation over their head. This animation means that while the animation is going, anytime the character takes ANY sort of damage, even if its 1-2 damage from fists or a quill rat, the character will go into stun animation. This swirly effect + the fast attack of the WoF is what makes the amazing stunning ability of the ghost, even though WoF in this build does < 50 damage.
4. Equipment
Breakpoint Goals
FCR- 65% (102% in my opinion leaves you with an extremely weak WW)
Frame 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9
FCR Needed 0% 8% 16% 24% 42% 65% 102% 174%
FHR- 48% You can go higher, but this is a good minimum. (Theoretically you can WW out of anything, but then you won’t be doing any damage either)
Frame 9 8 7 6 5 4 3
FHR Needed 0% 7% 15% 27% 48% 86% 200%
Trap Laying Speed- 9 frame with Fade. This is one of the most confusing parts of building this Assassin, so I’ll take some time to explain the mechanics.
9 FPA is the fastest trap laying can be, and is based on the average Weapon Speed Modifier (WSM) of your two claws. If you look at the base claw types on Arreat Summit, you will see a WSM corresponding to each type, ranging from 10 to -30. The lower the number, the faster the claw. Just like the IAS requirement for attacks is based on what weapon you are using, the trap speed bases the IAS required on the WSM of the claws. However, because the sin is dual-wielding, the average WSM (AWSM for short) is used instead. I.E. the AWSM for a -30 WSM talon and a 0 WSM claw will be -15. For future reference, the primary claw is above the gloves, and the secondary claw is above the boots.
The amount of IAS required for each AWSM is listed below. IAS is counted from every piece of equipment, except for the secondary claw. Note that any AWSM faster than -30 requires WSM Bugging, which will be explained later. Although your AWSM can be slower than -20, the breakpoints are not included because they require too much IAS to be efficient.
AWSM | IAS %
-20 | 63
-25 | 52
-30 | 42
-35 | 34
-40 | 26
-45 | 19
-50 | 13
Whirlwind speed- You want the 4 frame WW frame, which occurs at the modified WSM (MWSM) BP of -13, calculated by (WSM – [IAS% ON CLAW]). A Feral Claw (or faster), regardless of how much IAS is on the claw, will already reach the 4 frame whirl BP. WW calculates speeds of both weapons independently. Although you get 2 free hit checks at frames 4 and 8, you should make sure your claws hit the 4 frame BP.
Equipment Options
Now’s the fun part. There are tons of different setups to use with your ghost that hit all those breakpoints, so see what mix you like the best. Here are the options for the equipment. I won’t tell the stats for each item because they’re very well known.
Claws
Chaos-A necessity for the +Whirlwind. One of the few static pieces of equipment.
Fury- The mods on this claw are unbeatable. IAS also helps to hit tray laying break points. The OW on this claw makes Whirlwind and Blade Fury very effective.
Fool’s modded claw- This is for poison oriented ghosts that want to pump up their AR. Get one with an IAS suffix to make sure you hit the trap laying BP.
Eth Rare- These can rack up huge damages, along with the possibility of fool’s mods among other things. This is what you want if you want to focus on physical damage, and/or happen to find an amazing one.
Ethereal Bartucs- These are very good sources of physical damage for when you choose to go that route, and come with amazing mods. Socket it with Um if you do choose to use one.
Malice- Simple. Don’t use it. The OW might seem like a good idea, but if you want open wounds, Fury is a much better alternative. It has 66%, coupled with chaos which has 25%, your OW % is already pretty high, even though the claws are calculated separately in WW. The overall benefits of 100% OW compared to 66% + 25% are miniscule, as you will hit many times when you whirl + over the course of the duel.
NOTE- When choosing what base claw type to use, look at the base damages and the STR/DEX req. For example, most ghosts use Runic Talons, Feral Claws, or Greater Talons. Runics require 115/115, Ferals need 113/113, and Greater Talons require only 79/79. Ferals do the most damage but are also the slowest, at -20 WSM. Runic claws are -30 WSM and do decent damage. Greater Talons are also -30 WSM and do less damage than Runics, however you save a lot of DEX points as the claw reqs are much lower. This lets you pump VIT more, and give you a higher life.
NOTE- Use best modded claw on primary slot always. You get the bonuses from that claw when you consider Blade Shield/Fury, DF, and trap laying speed. For example, if you use fury, the 20% AR will only be applied to WW if it’s in the primary claw. When considering what skills to get on a claw, look for +DF, +MB, +Venom, and/or other useful skills. There is some debate as to exactly how fool’s (and other AR mods) gets applied to WW when you are dual wielding, but it is a good idea to make sure the fool’s claw is the primary claw for other reasons.
NOTE- The non-Chaos claw slot will give a lot of options for your ghost. Even though most of your other items are pretty locked, this claw can be swapped very frequently to tweak your ghost for the duel. Swap in a fools for high defense opponents, ethereal cruel’s for low DR opponents, Fury for ES and block characters, etc. Having Venom deal the damage gives you a lot of options for your weapons. Just remember to consider which claw to put on the primary.
Helms
2/20fcr sin circlet- This circlet helps you get the 65 FCR BP, as well as add skills for your sin. +skills are very important for damage and survivability, and this circlet is usually cheap because of low demand, as 102 fcr (trappers) cannot be reached with this. Rare circlets also can spawn with a variety of useful stats. +Stats, life, mana, RES, elemental damage, all this stuff is really useful, and makes it better than .08 Valk in my opinion. This helm opens up the ring/ammy sockets for other things besides FCR items.
Shako- Shako adds a lot of life and mana, through the +life/mana and also +bo. The +all skills also adds to WW, so it gives more damage and AR. However, this helm requires you to use FCR ammy and rings, losing out on some other mods.
.08 Valk- This helm helps ghosts hit the 102 FCR bp, if they choose to go for it. It is an absolute necessity for 102. However, I advise against this build because all rings and amulet must be FCR ones, missing out on much needed bonuses. Some sins use valk in a 65 FCR build, as the 30% IAS in the helm allows them to use heavier and higher damage claws. With 30% + 40 % IAS on the claw, you will be able to use claws that average -20 WSM and still reach 9 frame traps (like 2x Feral Claws). Whether or not this is useful depends on whether you will be focusing on physical or poison damage, but ultimately the choice between this or a circlet is up to you.
Crown of Ages- I heard some people asking about this helm, and I’ll tell you why I didn’t include it in the first draft. This helm is useful for giving huge amounts of DR with the 2 sockets open, which is not useful as ghosts use fade. Shako is a better alternative, as ghosts are not pressed for socket space or DR.
Ammy
Mara’s- This ammy is the common choice for most ghosts. The benefits are self explanatory. +skills benefit the WW and BO as well.
2sin/FCR ammy- This ammy is useful to free up a ring for something other than FCR. Again, nothing new here, the benefits are self explanatory. Just another option to hit your FCR breakpoint.
Highlord’s- This ammy is often overlooked. The +1 skills is very useful, along with the LR. Deadly strike actually helps a lot, contrary to common belief. Also, the 20 IAS helps you hit the 9 frame trap laying, opening up the helm socket to something other than IAS jewel. Definitely use this ammy if you're going to emphasize physical damage. Otherwise, stick with some of the other choices as they'll benefit you more overall.
Armor
Enigma- There’s no other choice. It’s what makes a ghost a ghost.
Gloves
Trang’s Gloves- Only choice here.
Belt
Spider Sash- Again, only choice.
Boots
Rare FRW/FHR/stat/RES- The bonuses here are probably the best you can get on a pair of boots. It’s everything you want. Imps or other classic rares are your best bet.
Sandstorm Treks- Use these if you can't find nice rare ones. They have FRW/FHR/stat just like the rare ones do, except they lack a little bit in the resistance department. They're probably the second best boots you can have for a ghost.
Gores- These are nice for pumping up your WW damages. I advise against it however, especially if you use Fury, as the benefits from Gores are very marginal.
Shadow Dancers- These are great boots for kickers, but not so useful for ghosts. Huge STR requirement along with the lack of kicking done by ghosts makes this a bad choice in my book. If you do choose to Dragon Talon as your secondary melee attack, you can consider it.
Rings
Ravenfrost- Best ring you can have on a ghost. The AR and +DEX helps you hit more with WW. Ghosts suffer from low AR, so these greatly help in that department. A friend made a ghost on open with all FCR items, and had a total of only ~2k AR. The cold damage actually helps a ton also, as it slows down characters running and block animation while you WW, making them stun easier. +Mana helps a ton as well.
FCR/Stat/Mana/Life/Res/AR Ring- Use one of these instead of a Ravenfrost if you need them to hit your FCR breakpoint.
NOTE- As long as you hit all the breakpoints above, you can mix and match. Most people go for FCR circlet with FCR ring + Ravenfrost. Some people opt for 2 Ravenfrosts with a FCR ammy. This gives more AR in general, but loses some deadly strike or +skills. Some people swap out fury for a fool's modded claw if they're lacking AR. It’s all preference. There are many setups that have their benefits. Tailor your equipment to fit your play style and needs.
Optional Equipment
Widowmaker- +GA adds a useful element of attack vs. hammerdins or trappers, or other camping characters. Use a Cat's Eye and other +DEX equipment to use the bow. I wouldn't recommend placing extra DEX to use Widow. Socket it with an Um rune for the open wounds or a Nef for KB if you're able to. Otherwise, socket it with a Hel to lower the DEX req.
Cat’s Eye- Ammy used when using Widowmaker, for the reasons explained above. The 20% IAS also helps to reach the GA breakpoint.
Bramble- When you want to sacrifice all your stun and mobility and go for straight damage, like vs Barbs, slap on a Bramble and you'll be a full out WW sin.
Fortitude Armor- The replacement for Bramble for physical damage ghosts (explained later).
Andariel’s Viel- This helm adds +2 all skills, +20-30 STR, +70% PR, +10%Max PR -30%FR, 20% IAS and 8%LL. This helm is useful as an addition to Bramble/Fort setup. The huge +STR will help you use the claws and equipment without Enigma. Also, if you need an extra edge vs poison characters, this helm will give you +10% Max PR, helping you vs other WW Sins and PN Necros.
Giant’s Skull- This helm is also used for the +25 STR to equip the Bramble/Fort setup. While you lose a lot of mods compared to Andy’s Viel, you gain KB, which is extremely helpful vs. melee characters. It also comes with 2 sockets, which are very useful for filling any gaps in those anti-melee setups.
E(bug) Bartucs- These claws have amazing mods, but the primary use of this is the huge +STR on them, helping you use Bramble/Fort + all your equipment.
Verdungo's- Use this belt in conjunction with Bramble or when you are going full out melee. The extra DR will keep you at 50% DR without Enigma, and the +VIT 10%FHR and +Rep Life always help.
Angelic's Ammy + Rings- Throw these into your setup when you need a big AR boost, like vs Barbs and pure smiters. Make sure you keep CBF somewhere on your equipment if you replace your Raven frost with an angelic, unless you are 100% sure you won't be using traps at all.
Prebuff Equipment- Shadow claws + helm socketed with facets. Pretty self explanatory. Try to use Bramble when you buff, as the %PD damage works once when you cast it and will give you more damage than Enigma or a faceted Nat's Armor.
WSM Bugging
WSM bugging is a little trick used to lower the AWSM of your two claws, lowering the IAS requirements for trap + non-WW animations. It works by placing your secondary claw in your inventory first. That means that after you switch to your weapons, lift and replace your glove-side claw, and it’ll bug your WSM.
Instead of just averaging the WSM’s of the two claws, your AWSM = average + (right WSM – left WSM). So, for example, if you use a Runic Talon (-30 WSM) in the boot-side slot and a Suwayyah (0 WSM) in the glove-side slot, if you bug the WSM, you’ll have an AWSM = -15 + (-30 - 0) = -45 instead of -15 like you would if you didn’t bug it. It’ll help you reach your trap IAS BP’s if you use a slow claw on one hand. If you look at the equation, it’ll tell you to make sure that if you DO use a slow claw, make sure the fast one is in the secondary slot, so when you bug it, it makes your AWSM faster. Otherwise, it’ll actually slow down AWSM. To simplify, a chart is included below, showing the AWSM’s for every claw combination after WSM bugging.
AWSM after WSM Bugging
Boot-Side Claw WSM
10 0 -10 -20 -30
Glove- 10 10 -5 -20 -35 -50
Side 0 15 0 -15 -30 -45
Claw -10 20 5 -10 -25 -40
WSM -20 25 10 -5 -20 -35
-30 30 15 0 -15 -30
In summary, put fast claw in secondary slot, slow claw in primary slot, and lift and replace your slow claw to bug it. Every time you switch weapons, it replaces the primary claw first, so you’ll have to rebug it. Note that after WSM bugging, the glove-side claw becomes secondary, and the boot-side claw becomes the new primary claw.
Charm and Socket Options
Charms are a lot more straightforward than the equipment. Use Torch, Anni, Shadow GCs (Vita + FHR to meet bps), and fine/vitas, and enough (just a few) mana/life scs to support your WW + MB. The mix of shadow + SCS is up to you. Shadow GCS will give you more skills, survivability, and poison damage, whereas fine/vitas will get you more life, and more AR, and of course more physical damage. Shadow GC’s will give you more physical damage through the added levels of claw mastery, but will still be less than what you gain with fine modded charms. Your resistances should be fine with your high level fade + equip.
The current main setup is 9 shadows with a bottom row of fine/vita scs, but that is not the only option. Figure out what setup will match your equip the best. For example, don’t go for physical damage charms if you’re using a fool’s claw for AR. It would be more efficient to focus on venom since you have weak weapon damage. You would benefit more from placing emphasis on venom. Following the same logic, don’t focus on deadly strike if you’re going to be emphasizing venom. Just use common sense.
Sockets are also very straight forward. There are only sockets for you to mess around with in your helm and claws, so there aren’t many choices. For the helm, Shael for FHR or Jah for life (some builds may be able to get more life with a Jah + FHR charm setup than of Shael + life charm setup; you’ll have to try it/calculate it yourself; thanks to Grooner for this snippet). However, if you need more IAS for trap laying, you can find a jewel to help you reach the breakpoint. In even weapon with open sockets, fill with Um runes for more Open Wounds. Facets just aren’t that useful here.
Venom and Physical Damage Spectrum
While it is assumed that Ghosts should automatically be built to use Venom as the main source of damage, variants emphasizing physical damage are extremely effective. The theory behind the physical damage variant is that while Venom only hits once every 10 frames, each of your two claws will hit every 4 frames, about 2.5x during the duration of the venom. That means that any sort of damage bonus you get from physical damage charms and equipment will have much more “effective” damage than bonuses for Venom.
There is no clear cut winner though. Venom builds are much better for ES Sorcs and Necros with Bone Armor, while physical damage is much better for Vita characters, especially in team duel situations with Amp; they both break about even for block characters. When you switch from a Venom emphasized build to a physical build, you lose a lot of +skills in both the charm and equipment switches. However, you get more life from the nature of using SC’s over GC’s, and also more innate AR without a fool’s claw. There is also room for builds in the middle of these two, which is why I called it a “spectrum”. So, like I said above, I'll let you pick which build to go for.
Here are some general examples/setups for Venom and physical oriented Ghosts:
Venom Oriented Ghost
2/20/2 Circlet (Shael + 15 IAS |15 RES jewel)
Mara’s Ammy
40% IAS Fool’s Modded Greater Talons (2 Um’s) [primary]
Chaos Runeword Greater Talons [secondary]
Trang’s Gloves
Spider Sash
10 FCR | Life | Mana | STAT | RES Ring
Raven Frost
FRW | FHR | STAT | RES Boots
Sin Torch and Anni
9 Lifer | FHR Shadow GC’s
10 Iron SC’s of Vita (AR | Life SC’s)
Physical Damage Oriented Ghost
2/20 Rare Circlet (Shael/Jah)
Highlords
Runic Talon Fury [primary]
Feral Claw Chaos [secondary]
Trang’s Gloves
Spider Sash
10 FCR | Life | Mana | STAT | RES Ring
Raven Frost
FRW | FHR | STAT | RES Boots
Sin Torch and Anni
2 Lifer | FHR Shadow GC’s
31 3/20/20 SC’s
5. Tactics
Hotkeys
Ghosts are extremely hotkey dependent. All your skills should be on the right side, so you have the most seamless skill transitions you can have. My hotkeys are set up as follows.
A-Teleport
S-Blade Fury
D-Mindblast
F-Whirlwind
G-WoF
H-Blade Shield
J-Venom
Q-Shadow Master
W-Fade
E-Battle Orders
R-Battle Command
V-Burst of Speed
Use whatever you feel is most comfortable, but don’t decide not to use a skill because you can’t deal with that many hotkeys. Just practice and it’ll come
General Tactics
DoD- Stands for Dance of Death. This is more than just a flurry of short whirlwinds. It is a pattern of whirlwinds (triangle for the most part), where you whirlwind around the enemy, all the while staying within hitting range. The shape doesn’t really matter, but as long as you’re not just going back and forth over them, it’s fine. The benefit of the DoD is that when you’re going along the outside, straight projectiles will not hit you when they namelock you while you’re whirlwinding them. Make sure you change your DoD whirls so that you stay over the target if they try and run away.
Secondary Melee Attack- This group of attacks consists mainly of Dragon Talon, Dragon Claw, or Normal Attack, basically any short ranged melee attack will do. These attacks hit fast enough to stunlock the character, but the benefit comes in you not needing to move while attacking, allowing you to utilize minion stack. With the Shadow Master stacked on top of you, you will be impervious to most missiles, especially bone spirits. You can use this tactic when fighting any stunnable character that focuses on teleport to move and fires single target missiles. Whirlwind will always deal better damage, so try and use this secondary attack only when you need to dodge missiles. Remember that you must have your shadow casted for this to work.
Namelock- Clicking on the character and using that to target. You MUST be able to namelock well, or you won’t be able to get a good stun. Namelock is also necessary for the teleport after you cast the WoF+MB so that you land on top of the enemy, allowing you to start whirling right away.
Chainlock- Chainlocking is just what the name implies: it’s the chaining of your namelock after you teleport. This is achieved by moving your cursor back to the center of your screen, allowing you to reclick on your target the moment after you teleport. Because you will have had NL, the teleport will bring you right on top of the target, so the cursor at the center of your screen will be ready to re-acquire the target. Use this when you are chaining MB together in team duels, or when you use your secondary melee attack. Be careful about getting into a habit of CL’ing after you tele, because you may accidently WW lock if you click on the target after teleporting.
Teleport- Don’t run to move places. You need to be offensive, so teleport is much faster. Claw block also stops working when you run. Use this instead of Dragon Flight for movement. Remember that this is what makes you a Ghost and not a WW sin.
Dragon Flight- Dragon flight is ridiculously slow. After you cast and kick, there is still an animation delay, meaning you are sitting there lowering your leg back to the ground while you are standing there. This leaves you open to any retaliation after the kick if the person blocks or isn’t stunned. The damage is also minimal. Using it for movement is bad too, since the range in DF has been reduced to about 15 yards. Teleport is much better, as the speed and range is better, and it allows you to go right into WW or MB when you land. Try not to use dragon flight as a crutch when can’t namelock. You need to namelock with MB + Traps before you pounce on them anyway, because pouncing on a character without stun is usually very bad as Ghosts can’t out-damage most characters. I only recommend using it when you are sure it will kill, i.e. when open wounds has brought the other character to 1 life.
Shadow Master- Always have one up. They MB like crazy, help you tank, stun, and minion stack. At higher levels, the fade + innate resistance makes them immune to elemental attacks.
Open Wounds- Although this damage source does not show up on the character screen, it is a quintessential for the effectiveness of the ghost. The weapons the ghost uses will stack very high percentages of Open Wounds, and will trigger on almost every whirlwind. Open Wounds is conceptually a “negative health regeneration”, and lasts for 8 seconds. The damage is unresistable, and cancels out health regeneration while active. Open Wounds will stop when the enemy reaches one life, one more attack will be necessary for the kill.
Mind Blast- Mind blast is one of the most important skills to the ghost. Don’t be afraid to apply it liberally. Along with being essential for the stun, mind blast is a great combo with the open wounds. Characters will escape from your stun once in a while, but when they do that, the OW will work its magic while they retreat. OW will not kill, but that’s where MB comes in. After OW deals its damage, there is a good chance that the character is only at single digit life. While it may be hard to get another WW hit on the character, you can still kill the character, using just a simple mind blast (Shadow Masters are great at this as well). Because of the high level MB on a ghost, it will actually do noticeable damage. MB will be a great killer for minion stacked characters at low life, as MB is an area of effect skill and will hit the character even if he has minions stacked above him. Just as a note, MB is a physical attack, so a Necro’s bone armor WILL absorb it.
Psychic Hammer- This skill is like MB’s little cousin. It causes KB just like MB, but it only affects one target, and doesn’t trigger the stun swirly. Although it doesn’t seem all that useful, some players like to use it for its auto-targeting characteristic. PH targets similar to FoH in that it will automatically select a target within a certain range to where you cast it, except it won’t cast if there is no target in range. This makes PH very good as a supplement to MB. However, I would suggest you learn to namelock without the help of PH, and use the initial trap cast as your “cushion”; you’ll be faster overall once you don’t have to rely on PH in the stun sequence. The reason I like PH is for killing OW-inflicted targets that cannot be killed with MB, like necros with Bone Armor. Although the damage on PH is lower, it is magical damage, and does not get absorbed by Bone Armor or DR, allowing you to blow through the necro’s defenses and take care of that bit of remaining life.
Stunning- A very important element of ghost play. The damage output on the ghosts is on the lower side compared to most other characters, but it more than makes up for it with its ability to stun. WoF + MB will stun lock the character, as MB leaves a swirly animation that puts the character into stun animation every time it takes damage. With WoF hitting, most characters are completely stunlocked with just 2 WoF's shooting fire. Don't sit and spam traps because it’s not necessary, especially with the NextDelay nerf. WW with the stun swirly will also stun lock.
BE OFFENSIVE- While camping in your WoF circle may seem like an awesome strategy, it doesn’t work, unless you’re fighting a charger or something of that sort. WoF is hard to see, and so it works very well as an offensive stun skill. If you apply pressure, you can control the duel. If you allow the caster to create distance, you’ll just force yourself to run through more of its spam as you attack. Because of the ghost’s ability to stun, keeping pressure on the target will actually lower the risk to you if done correctly, as counter-intuitive as that may be.
Widowmaker- This bow is not a necessity, but vs. camping trappers and pure hammerdins and the sort, it does have its uses. This bow will force the other character to attack you. When ghosts can play defensively, it will make it much easier to get a full trap stun going. Try it out. It’s a matter of preference. I have found it invaluable vs. certain characters.
The ghost’s bread and butter is just a rinse and repetition of MB + WOF for stun, then teleport and WW. The tough part is getting the initial stun and then the transition to the whirling. The style of the stun -> whirl is up to you. Some people constantly apply the stun, throwing in a few whirls in between the traps and MB to keep the stun. I just go for straight whirls after I catch with traps and MB, even after the traps wear off, because with just the MB swirly animation and tight DoD’s, you can stunlock a character, and the kill comes faster. However, this is probably not what you want to do if you have trouble getting the initial locks.
6. Class-Specific Dueling
I’m going to start off with casters, because they are what the ghost is built for. The videos are there solely for didactic reasons, so you may find them slightly "dumbed down" and slow.
Sorceresses
All Types:
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnhHJIKMW2w
Ghost vs. Sorc is the same no matter what build they are. Teleport to close in using a semi-circle or spiral pattern, until you are in range to namelock. Lay 1-2 traps and mindblast them until they’re stunned, then quickly teleport in and start whirling. If your whirls are short enough, the MB stun swirly + whirlwind hits will be enough to block/lock stun. The WoF is there to help you keep the sorc in place until you start your whirls. If the sorc casts blizz or meteor over itself, stun them and then shoot blade fury until the blizz/meteor wears off, or just MB them out of the blizz/meteor. You’ll be amazed at how effective just the blade fury is.
Necromancers
Bone:
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqd-B9OBTeM
Use the same strategy as sorcs. You *may* want to use BoS to counter the effect the golem slow has on your trap laying speed. Vita necs will go down pretty easily, as no block with MB/WW will stun them like mad. Block necs will be a little more trouble. Make sure you have trap stun supplementing your WW stun, as block necs may be able to get out of your WW if there are no traps helping you keep them in place. Defensive necs will be hard to get the stun, but if you drive them into corners you will be able to get them. Use corners and range to your advantage, as your attacks are instantaneous, instead of projectiles-based, which take time to get to the target.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii4P911TzuE
You may also want to try and utilize your secondary melee attack here, as when you teleport on a necro with shadow stacked on top of you, any spirits that had you locked will pass through you. With this technique, after you trap/MB the necro, CL tele on top of the necro and attack with your secondary melee skill, set to the left mouse button. Using the left button allows you to CL very quickly if the necro manages to tele out. If you see the necro start to counter it by walk/running away, whirl along with his movement. At the very least, using this strategy will force the necro to run and lower his block and defense. The combination of these two attacks when dueling a necro is extremely effective. The video above illustrates this tactic.
Summon (with or without poison nova):
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07vEqL9AE1w
These necs will be very annoying to duel, but their damage is very low so its still not that bad of a duel. The great thing is that MB and WoF are splash attacks. If you namelock the necro, you will stun the entire pack. Once you stun the necro + minions, you can MB the necro until you push him away from his minions. Once that happens, tele and WW and focus on just him. He’ll go down much sooner than his summons. Just make sure the nec stays stunned or you’ll have to separate him from his minions again.
Druids
Wind:
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1YidRRJxBI
Ghosts are very good against the druid because druids have low FHR and cast, and the WoF and MB counter their short range attacks well. However, they are still dangerous if they catch you before you can stun them. Make sure that when you are pursuing them, your traps are close enough to you so that they can fire back at you if the druid jumps on you. Basically what that ends up looking like is the ghost teleporting so that the druid is on screen, placing a trap between the druid and the ghost, and then MBing the druid until the WoF hits. That way, if the druid jumps on you before you achieve stun, the WoF can still fire backwards and protect you. This duel is the same as vs. any other caster. The oak will be basically immune to you in NM, but it shouldn’t matter if the stun is done correctly. If the druid is a max block druid, reapply the traps. Druids may be able to tank/out damage you if you whirl without stun helping you keep them from shooting tornados.
Fire Elemental:
These should be just giant punching bags. You probably won’t even need WoF for this duel. Just namelock MB, tele and then WW.
Melee:
If the druid is purely melee, if WW perpendicularly away from the druid as it runs after you. That way, the WW will hit but they will not. It’s kind of a useless duel, but it happens anyway.
Amazons
Bow:
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Khdgro_qM
These are very easy. The ghost is anti-caster, but as a result, also totally anti-zon. Don’t bother with more than 1 WoF here either. Circle in with tele, corner namelock with MB and go straight into short WWs. The zon will have low life and poison res, and should get block/dodged locked pretty easily. If the zon manages to desync out of your WW, just MB while they’re running away and repeat. Make sure your whirls are short and that you’re constantly applying pressure via MB, so that they don’t have time to pull out the bow and throw a few arrows your way. They shouldn’t be much of a problem.
Javazons:
Treat these like a caster as well. WoF + MB to stun, then WW them. If the javazon FC’s, then don’t bother with traps. Just MB from far away, tele and WW. Make sure you stay on them or they’ll hit you with more CS. If you need to, you can put on Tgods or something of that sort, but you’ll be able to tank more hits than other characters from the full RES and clawblock. They shouldn’t be able to shoot anymore after you start whirling.
Paladins
Hammerdins:
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIUlcKZlYUE
Here, you’ll want to practice hit and run, utilizing your open wounds for damage. Basically, dueling a hammerdin will be achieving stun lock to stop the hammer spam for a few instants, long enough for you to tele in and make a quick WW pass. When I say WW pass, I mean a short-medium length whirl southward, so you dodge the hammers that come out as you teleport/whirl (hammers come from the 9 o'clock position on paladins and continue to travel clockwise from there). Don’t DoD here. Just get out of hammer range. If you catch them charging, whirl in the direction they are charging, so you make use of the lowered block when they run/charge along with your whirl. To counter tele/hammers, have 1-2 traps nearby at all times, as once you get the MB swirly the paladin, the traps will be able to cover you from tele/hammers and other short range passes/attacks.
What I do now vs. hammerdins is to teleport offensively (but stay out of hammer range), place 1-2 traps under me for protection, then MB the hammerdin. If the hammerdin starts to charge, teleport and WW with the charge. Otherwise, start laying traps + MB, and wait either for them to charge or for the traps to start firing before you tele whirl. Just remember that both hammerdins and ghosts are short range attackers, so you can/have to wait for the right time to attack. There’s no rush in these duels, since the hammers will not hit you if you keep your distance. If you find the paladin is just trying to out-spam you by just standing in one place and spamming hammers, you can use your secondary melee attack here as well. After you do your short whirl to the south, if you see the hammerdin still standing there spamming, you can attack him with your melee skill from the south. Because the range on the claws is very short, you be able to hit the paladin from below while the hammers curve around you. Just make sure you teleport/whirl away when you see the paladin shift positions.
There’s also the option of a widowmaker here, especially if the paladin is pure hammer. Be very careful on bow switch, especially if the hammerdin equips a charge weapon, as you will have no claw block to protect you.
Liberators:
Keep in mind that they can deal damage with charge. Play with the same strategy as vs. hammerdins, but if you ever see the paladin charge at you, WW perpendicularly away like you would against a zealot/smiter/druid. Hammer damage on a Lib will be lower, but still will deal very good damage.
Mages:
Same strategy as with hammerdin. The FoH will not pose much of a threat if you’re mind blasting them constantly. Most mages actually have very little DR, so they will be easier than full fledged hammerdins.
Zealots:
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgaxcr1N0wI
These can actually be hard if you try and DoD them. They have insane defense and AR, and with your relatively low AR and defense, you may fall victim. Just do short clip WW’s or blade fury if they shift zeal, or whirl perpendicularly away if they come after you.
Smiters:
Grief smite is extremely strong. If the paladin is a pure smite, this duel is very simple. You can WW perpendicularly away from the smiter, so that the smites won't hit but your WW's will. If they shift smite, shoot blade furies to get them to move, or use the time to apply traps + MB. Make sure you have a complete stun lock before you tele in them though, because grief smite hurts. However, once you hit the first time, open wounds will trigger, and the smiter will not sit in MB spam. Just remember that if you try and DoD, the Grief smite will out damage you.
V/T’s:
Video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=TWnCcoOnLBQ
You’ll have to use hit and run here again. You can't treat them as a pure smiter because the FoH can hit you while you WW away. However, because the V\T’s FoH isn’t spammable, you'll have more time to apply the stun. Lay 2 traps under the smiter or under you, and MB. After they’re stunned, teleport and to another medium length WW, but this time to the north. Namelock teleport puts you slightly to the north of the target, so if you WW north right away after teleport, you should be right out of range as the smite goes off. Rinse and repeat. This will be another hard duel.
Assassins
Ghosts:
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8d-LEzn0b8
This is an amazingly flashy duel, but its pretty simple when you break it down. If you boil all the graphics down, it ends up being very similar to BvB as Sins that are whirling cannot be stunned. The main objective is to catch/stun the other sin when they aren’t whirling, by MB namelocking and short whirling right away. Other than that there isn’t too much strategy that’s worth mentioning, except to watch your opponent’s life. If you feel open wounds will be able to kill the other sin, duct tape down MB and just keep the sin away while you wait for MB + OW to finish her off. The most effective defense vs. a ghost is to be whirling when you sense the other ghost teleporting, to keep from being caught off guard, or at least exchanging blow for blow. As is the same with other same-class duels, the strategies are just something you have to test and try out for yourself. You may find a use for Blade Fury after dueling a few times.
Lightning Trappers:
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYo8hBjraR4
This will be a hard duel. You might want to use BoS here to increase your whirlwind speed if you have max Lightning resistance without Fade. LS has longer range, and will claw block you if they hit, so you'll have to be very careful. Use the corners, and float around the outside of their traps, laying a few WoF from the corners of your screen to force the trapper to move from the traps. Once you get them to move far enough from the traps to get a MB lock, cast a few and tele-whirl. If you have MB swirly on them and your whirls are small enough, you can stun lock them with just WW. If you DoD or whirl perpendicular to the trap shot direction, you’ll be able to dodge all the LS while you hit them. If they manage to get away, or you see that you’re in a bad position, don’t be afraid to teleport out and make some more distance before you take another pass. You can also WW out of traps, since you are unstunnable when you are whirling. The open wounds will deal very good damage while you retreat momentarily.
You can also put on a widowmaker on as a second switch, which will force the trapper to be relatively offensive; making it much easier. Give yourself some distance, lay some traps at points you predict the trapper would teleport, and shoot GA's. If the trapper comes after you, try and land an MB on her. If the trapper gets stunned, switch to claw and go in for some whirls. Don't be afraid to keep your distance if you have a widowmaker, but just remember that WW is much stronger, so always switch to WW if the situation is right.
Hybrids:
These sins are actually pretty tough to beat. Hybrids that duel ghosts will most likely end up being a camping trapper that just WW’s away from you when you try and attack. Here you’ll just have to apply more damage than they do. The traps will be slightly weaker than pure trappers, and they won’t constantly apply MB, so the duel may be easier in some sense. Just try and quickly teleport in, and go straight after them with WW. Keep whirling after them and use the WW to dodge the traps while going after the other assassin. Just keep in mind that your WW out-damages theirs, so anytime both of you guys are whirling at each other, it’s a winning situation.
Fire Trappers/Bombers:
These will be extremely easy. Claw block will block the WoF + fire blasts, plus you won’t get your WW stopped by the WoF+MB. You get the picture.
Barbs
Whirlwind:
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM9yTfeWnaQ
These are the bane of your existence. They have more damage, more life, more AR, and more DEF. Your best hope is to go prebuff high level venom and slap on your Bramble/Fort setup and Angelics. You will be able to defeat the bad barbs, but any barb with equipment equal to yours will give you quite a lot of trouble. Physical damage ghosts will fair better here than poison ones, but the gear must be quite good before winning will be a possibility. You can try to hit and run with OW, but most likely they’ll trigger OW on you too, and with your lower life, it’ll just work against you. That’s just how it is. Ghosts have to have a weakness somewhere right?
As with the trapper, you also have the option to slap on a widowmaker here and switch things up. Throw WoF on the floor around you, and keep moving. If you Nef your widowmaker, you'll have a much better chance. Don't worry about fully stunning the barb with MB, just cast it on him once in a while whenever you see him without a swirly (the shadow will help with that as well). Lay down traps and fire arrows, and keep your shadow stack up. The most important thing here is to stay mobile and to never let the barb have a chance to get a good whirl on you. Dodging his NL's will be a much better tactic than trying to stun him completely before firing arrows. This is one of those duels where you'll need to just wear him down. Just make sure to watch out for desync whirls.
Team Dueling
Ghosts are often underestimated in team duels. It's true that the damage output isn't very high, but the ghost is extremely good at what it does: stunning and killing casters. Stick to what you're good at and let your teammates take care of what you can't handle. In a team duel environment, it's even harder for your opponent to dodge your WoF's. You can stun an entire team if you micro well, and let your teammates kill them as you hold them all at bay. Act mainly as a stunner, but help out killing the fast casters and druids. Again, to reiterate, whirling is a great source of stun as well. Dodge the barbs. Team dueling is just all about finding your niche.
7. My Ghost
Name: Namelock
Lvl 92 Assassin
Major Stats:
4102 life/ 638 mana with non-buffed BO (lvl 14)
7130 WW AR
3478-4610/2379-3214 WW Damage (Chaos/Fury)
34% + 33% DS (items) + 23% DS (Mastery) = 75% effective total DS
Max resistance in Hell + 50% DR with Fade.
60% Claw Block
9 FPA trap laying speed with fade
65 FCR BP
48 FHR BP
Setup
2 Sin | 20 FCR | 5% life (Jah) | 10 DEX | 8 MAX | 24-45 fire damage | 18 all RES Circlet
Highlords Ammy
10 FCR | 78 AR | 6 life leach | 10 life | 78 mana | 21 LR Ring
248 | 20 Raven Frost Ring
Gothic Plate Enigma Armor
Trang’s Glove
Arachnid's Belt
Imp Shanks Boots (30 FRW | 20 FHR | 18 STR | 49 LR | 35 FR | 22 PR)
Feral Fury (with +3Venom and +3LS) Claw
Ebugged Suwayyah Chaos Claw
Screenshot
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/8760/screenshot013ip4.jpg
8. Special Thanks
Rees (Stoutwood) for being such a badass.
Marcus (Mr. J) for baaling unconscious.
Andrew (Anbu) for countless hours of duels.
Kevin (Atomsk) for being #1 BvC for 2 days running and for stealing my rep while I was gone.
Haakon (Glory) for adding international flare.
Gurjit (rage-pvp) for *emotional* support.
Alex (hippo) for being psuedo-black.
Eric (revivial) for finally reaching QQbaals-26.
Russ (World_Funeral) for being my butt buddy.
Nick (Aminal) for grieving so much.
EJ for being the victim in the videos.
Grooner for actually reading.
Zharous for all your d2tables.
Buck (G-Code) for teaching me my culture.
David (hi1mdav1d) for being a movie star.
All of Temple, for just being there.
Please leave comments/suggestions/questions. Thanks for reading.
wow when did your guide get so long dave?
gj
wow when did your guide get so long dave?
gj
it's always been like that :undecided:
HappyAssassin
04-07-2007, 04:00
IMO awesome guide.
IMO awesome guide.
thanks for the sticky ollie :wink3:
Looks like a great guide. Thank you for sharing it.
Good job on that guide. Also helpful videos for beginners and useful tactical advice.
ah i just met you yesterday in a game with happy. my sin's name is FyreOrder and i'm definately looking forward to dueling your ghost sometime. great ghost guide and you just inspired me to continue writing my ww/wof guide since it is a very similar build to yours.
Seems like a very nice, high quality guide. GG for putting up the vids too.
A word about kicks though. DF can be nice, because there's no need to aim it almost at all. I've found that it actually works vs. very slippery opponents, which I couldn't namelock much. Just tele near the target according to the map and hold down DF in the general area.
DT also has it's uses. It's very hard to do perfect tele-tri-whirls vs. good casters, at least for me, and this is where DT comes in handy. It also frees up some concentration to be used for better trap stunlocking. Of course for someone with near-perfect namelock and triwhirl skills kicks are almost useless, but there are a few situations where DT actually "beats" WW even if WW was used perfectly. Vs. a necro that hides inside bonewalls for example. Most of the WW hits land on the bonewalls, making the number of hits done to the opponent to be lower than with using DT, which only hits a single target. DT also works if the opponent is crowded by minions. Sure, the minions can be knocked away with a couple of MB casts, but that takes time, increasing the risk for the opponent getting away, whereas with DT the opponent can be attacked as soon as he/she is namelocked, no matter how many minions there are. Just MB the whole group once (and lay a few traps to stunlock the opponent better of course) to ensure the minions aren't interrupting with their attacks.
I don't mean to say that not investing in kicks is bad, I just want to share my view on kicks, that they can be useful at times, even for someone with very good WW skills (I'm not saying that I'm very good with WW). ...Having said that, I admit that WW is better for probably more than 95% of the time if used properly, but for the remaining few occasions DF and DT can be nice skills to have in.
Downside with making the ghost lean a bit towards kicks, as in hybridizing it to a ghost/kicker, is that it probably means less life, which means less hits can be tanked, which means that opponents like Smiters or V/T:s can be slightly harder than they would be with a "pure ghost". (Shadow Dancers/upped Gores -> stat points "wasted" in Str, and a few skill points "wasted" in DT (3 kick DT is good).)
Seems like a very nice, high quality guide. GG for putting up the vids too.
A word about kicks though. DF can be nice, because there's no need to aim it almost at all. I've found that it actually works vs. very slippery opponents, which I couldn't namelock much. Just tele near the target according to the map and hold down DF in the general area.
DT also has it's uses. It's very hard to do perfect tele-tri-whirls vs. good casters, at least for me, and this is where DT comes in handy. It also frees up some concentration to be used for better trap stunlocking. Of course for someone with near-perfect namelock and triwhirl skills kicks are almost useless, but there are a few situations where DT actually "beats" WW even if WW was used perfectly. Vs. a necro that hides inside bonewalls for example. Most of the WW hits land on the bonewalls, making the number of hits done to the opponent to be lower than with using DT, which only hits a single target. DT also works if the opponent is crowded by minions. Sure, the minions can be knocked away with a couple of MB casts, but that takes time, increasing the risk for the opponent getting away, whereas with DT the opponent can be attacked as soon as he/she is namelocked, no matter how many minions there are. Just MB the whole group once (and lay a few traps to stunlock the opponent better of course) to ensure the minions aren't interrupting with their attacks.
I don't mean to say that not investing in kicks is bad, I just want to share my view on kicks, that they can be useful at times, even for someone with very good WW skills (I'm not saying that I'm very good with WW). ...Having said that, I admit that WW is better for probably more than 95% of the time if used properly, but for the remaining few occasions DF and DT can be nice skills to have in.
Downside with making the ghost lean a bit towards kicks, as in hybridizing it to a ghost/kicker, is that it probably means less life, which means less hits can be tanked, which means that opponents like Smiters or V/T:s can be slightly harder than they would be with a "pure ghost". (Shadow Dancers/upped Gores -> stat points "wasted" in Str, and a few skill points "wasted" in DT (3 kick DT is good).)
i have to whole heartedly disagree with you about df. i really see it more as a crutch skill than a utility skill. it takes 24 frames and the short range make it really useless for me (maybe because i'm pretty proficient at namelocking; the videos don't do the mb nl -> tele combo justice imo) if you are able to nl, using mb to nl is much better than trying to use df to catch your target, since you want to have your opponent in a swirly before you attack, always. i guess its a matter of style, but for me, i'm very glad i didn't place any points in it.
as for the dragon talon, i agree with you. i personally just use normal attack as my short range melee skill, since i feel that the spacing of the attacks is better than dragon claw and the hits do more damage than talon. i actually talk about the vs necro strategy that you mention in the necro section. its definitely a good strategy to have in your arsenal.
Nazdakka
05-07-2007, 05:02
This is a very well-written guide. Well done :)
I have a few questions, speaking as a relative beginner to PvP. Apologies for the slight OT, as I really like the idea of building a WWsin, but can't afford several key components of this build - most importantly, I won't ever have access to Enigma. I'm guessing that means that I'm stuck with a pure WW-er, as opposed to this exact build.
Without Teleport, are 9-frame traps a greater or lesser priority? Will more stunning (and so trapping) be necessary due to the slowness of DF?
Also, if one has to do without Enigma, what armours make a good replacement? I'm figuring Nat's, socketed with Poison Facets.
Is Malice discounted simply because it's worse than Fury? If Fury didn't exist/were too expensive, would Malice be usable against low-def opponents?
This is a very well-written guide. Well done :)
I have a few questions, speaking as a relative beginner to PvP. Apologies for the slight OT, as I really like the idea of building a WWsin, but can't afford several key components of this build - most importantly, I won't ever have access to Enigma. I'm guessing that means that I'm stuck with a pure WW-er, as opposed to this exact build.
Without Teleport, are 9-frame traps a greater or lesser priority? Will more stunning (and so trapping) be necessary due to the slowness of DF?
Also, if one has to do without Enigma, what armours make a good replacement? I'm figuring Nat's, socketed with Poison Facets.
Is Malice discounted simply because it's worse than Fury? If Fury didn't exist/were too expensive, would Malice be usable against low-def opponents?
shouldn't you be able to afford an enigma if you have a few poison facets? and on that note, if you cant afford an enigma, then you won't be able to afford the circlet or the rings, or claws, am i correct?
you leave me in quite a tough spot, since the premise of the entire build is to teleport and act partly like a trapper.
but to answer your questions, having the 9 frame bp would be less important when you aren't teleporting. when you're landlocked you'll be playing defensive, so you will have more time to set up your traps. i wouldn't go anything over 10/11 frame traps though.
as for the armor, i would recommend bramble or fort for a replacement for your armor, but seeing as you can't afford enigma, i'd probably go along with your nat's suggestion.
malice i guess is fine if you can't use a fury. make sure you use a fast claw though, since malice has 0 IAS; you need faster than -14 WSM to hit 4 frame traps.
there's no need to apologize. i love answering questions. it helps me convince myself that knowing all this stuff about d2 is useful. :wink3:
CaptnSparrow
05-07-2007, 09:45
How do you feel about Circlet v Valk?
I personally see Valk as the better choice because of Ring/Amulet flexibility. The 65 Fcr break is reached with just the belt and gloves (which never change) and this helm, leaving rings open. I think that the fact that this allows for convenient Angelic/Absorb (since let's be honest, BM does happen) without requiring additional changes in gear is a pretty good deal overall.
Also, do you think building in a Bramble switch is a good idea? Against opponents like BvCs, some Zeal/Smite, or Hammerdins where the ability to teleport isn't really necessary it seems like it's worth losing a few vitality points to build in.
I know you listed this stuff in optional equips, just wondering what your personal preference is.
PS: Nice ebug claw. @@
How do you feel about Circlet v Valk?
I personally see Valk as the better choice because of Ring/Amulet flexibility. The 65 Fcr break is reached with just the belt and gloves (which never change) and this helm, leaving rings open. I think that the fact that this allows for convenient Angelic/Absorb (since let's be honest, BM does happen) without requiring additional changes in gear is a pretty good deal overall.
Also, do you think building in a Bramble switch is a good idea? Against opponents like BvCs, some Zeal/Smite, or Hammerdins where the ability to teleport isn't really necessary it seems like it's worth losing a few vitality points to build in.
I know you listed this stuff in optional equips, just wondering what your personal preference is.
PS: Nice ebug claw. @@
i still think that circlet is better than valk, when you consider all the secondary mods that your circlet can come with. you can get tons of +mana, +life, +stats, +res, and not to mention the extra skill points.
if you use shadow gcs and have low base AR, i think a fools of quick would be a better choice than a set of angelics, and if you are using a physical damage build, you'll have enough AR without angelics or the fools, and when you do need the angelics vs babas and smiters etc, you'll have the freedom anyway because the fcr won't be a problem anyway.
i think on the whole, a circlet build will give you a better overall setup, but the valk will give you that extra bit of freedom against elemental characters if you use it. i've personally never needed to resist sorcs, so i've stuck with the circlet build. it's a matter of preference i guess. going valk or circlet is not going to make or break your sin, and you probably won't notice the difference. but instead of always using a valk because it gives you more freedom, i'd rather build for a circlet setup, and then switch to a valk for those cases when you need the added flexibility.
as for the bramble, i actually don't need to add any str to use it. when i use bramble i actually equip an andy's helm and an ebug fal'd bartucs, which gives me enough str to use bramble. i almost never use this setup though; i'd rather slap on a widowmaker than go full out whirl.
p.s. then there's also the school of using CoA as your helm. you can hit your 65 fcr bp if you use a fcr ring and a 15 fcr ammy, and then benefit from the extra DR and fhr and 2 sockets in the coa. the 15 extra dr helps save you 15 points into fade, the 2 sockets give you freedom for +max res or damage etc, and the fhr saves you fhr gcs. it's definitely a good option for ghosts with a poison emphasis, but not as much for the more physical builds.
I just wanna comment on the usefulness of DF.
DF is indeed in all cases worse than a fast namelock. And with some practise, Psyhammer + namelock catches even the fastest and most defensive casters.
BUT there is one exception, where I personally find DF very handy.
This is on duels against other assassins of any kind, but mainly other WWsins such as Ghosts or hybrid variants.
In those duels it's really important to get in and hit, deliver venom, some phys dmg and OW, and get away again without getting hit - before your opponent starts whirling as well.
The best way (IMO) to do this is with a quick DF and a short whirl (or even a quick triwhirl) - the key is NOT getting git by mindblast when you tele in.
If you try to lock your opponent with MB first, and then use tele/ww, he will most likely be able to MB lock you as well while you blast him; this is bad because you often won't be able to get away by teleporting anymore and have to whirl away or tank, while tanking often isn't that good (esp. vs hybrids - assuming your opponent got about the same stas as you) because there might be some adverse traps lying around (which means a disadvantage for you while tanking) and whirl away will almost necessarily get you some trap htis too (namelock + trap/mb spam).
So I find that after some back and forth and rather defensive trapping, a sudden offensive attack with DF can be very helpful as you can often get you again WITHOUT getting mindblasted.
This is very important, especially vs hybrids.
In other duels I find DF rather stupid, for it has a really long animation, is bugged etc.
That's why I got DF on my fury as I always use fury in sin vs sin anyway, so I don't have to skill any point into DF and can still use it when I need it.
Uncle_Mike
05-07-2007, 14:26
IMO awesome guide.
IMO Happy is right :smiley:
Nazdakka
05-07-2007, 14:40
shouldn't you be able to afford an enigma if you have a few poison facets? and on that note, if you cant afford an enigma, then you won't be able to afford the circlet or the rings, or claws, am i correct?
you leave me in quite a tough spot, since the premise of the entire build is to teleport and act partly like a trapper.
but to answer your questions, having the 9 frame bp would be less important when you aren't teleporting. when you're landlocked you'll be playing defensive, so you will have more time to set up your traps. i wouldn't go anything over 10/11 frame traps though.
as for the armor, i would recommend bramble or fort for a replacement for your armor, but seeing as you can't afford enigma, i'd probably go along with your nat's suggestion.
malice i guess is fine if you can't use a fury. make sure you use a fast claw though, since malice has 0 IAS; you need faster than -14 WSM to hit 4 frame traps.
I'm from the SP forum, and I'd PvP in TCP games. No duped runes means that high rune prices are extremely high, while the rest is in roughly the same order as you are used to. I have the resources to get most of what I need, including Ohms for CtA and Chaos, Poison Facets and hopefully a functional FCR/Skills Circlet (either magic 3 Shadow/20 FCR/2os or, if I'm really lucky, a rare 2/20/some os/goodstuff). Just not Enigma or Fury :)
Trapping: Ok, so I'm hurting my offensive ability by losing Trap laying speed, but that aspect is weaker anyway thanks to losing Enigma. My rough offensive plan would be rapid-fire MB -> swirlies -> traps -> DFlight approach -> WW until death, and so losing frames while trapping means the whole thing cannot be executed as effectively, especially as DF is so slow. With Chaos main and Malice offhand 9 frame traps seems very achievable, as I'd make both in -30 claws, while with Fool's main and Chaos offhand it's much harder, as I'd need a really fast Fool's Claw (which Denton would scoop up :D). I guess that's OK, seeing as the MB/trap lock appears to be best against the low-def characters which I'd be using Malice against.
Very nice guide :thumbsup:
I just wanna comment on the usefulness of DF.
DF is indeed in all cases worse than a fast namelock. And with some practise, Psyhammer + namelock catches even the fastest and most defensive casters.
BUT there is one exception, where I personally find DF very handy.
This is on duels against other assassins of any kind, but mainly other WWsins such as Ghosts or hybrid variants.
In those duels it's really important to get in and hit, deliver venom, some phys dmg and OW, and get away again without getting hit - before your opponent starts whirling as well.
The best way (IMO) to do this is with a quick DF and a short whirl (or even a quick triwhirl) - the key is NOT getting git by mindblast when you tele in.
If you try to lock your opponent with MB first, and then use tele/ww, he will most likely be able to MB lock you as well while you blast him; this is bad because you often won't be able to get away by teleporting anymore and have to whirl away or tank, while tanking often isn't that good (esp. vs hybrids - assuming your opponent got about the same stas as you) because there might be some adverse traps lying around (which means a disadvantage for you while tanking) and whirl away will almost necessarily get you some trap htis too (namelock + trap/mb spam).
So I find that after some back and forth and rather defensive trapping, a sudden offensive attack with DF can be very helpful as you can often get you again WITHOUT getting mindblasted.
This is very important, especially vs hybrids.
In other duels I find DF rather stupid, for it has a really long animation, is bugged etc.
That's why I got DF on my fury as I always use fury in sin vs sin anyway, so I don't have to skill any point into DF and can still use it when I need it.
the thing is that if you are proficient at namelocking, a quick tele whirl will be better than using df -> whirl; there doesn't have to be mb nl spam before you teleport on them. df has a very long animation, and so even after you "teleport", you will have your leg up in the air for a little while. if you don't hit/stun them with that kick, you'll be left open momentarily. i'd much rather just nl tele and do a short whirl if you're looking for quick damage.
personally i'm always watching for that long dragon flight animation. if i ever see it, my first reaction is to start whirling up, and usually df is slow enough to let me start the whirl before they hit me.
i've given dragon flight a try in a lot of different situations looking for those situations where df is useful, but i've been unable to find them. maybe its my style, but i've don't have dragon flight hotkeyed anymore (my fury has +3 df), but point taken. thanks for reading.
I'm from the SP forum, and I'd PvP in TCP games. No duped runes means that high rune prices are extremely high, while the rest is in roughly the same order as you are used to. I have the resources to get most of what I need, including Ohms for CtA and Chaos, Poison Facets and hopefully a functional FCR/Skills Circlet (either magic 3 Shadow/20 FCR/2os or, if I'm really lucky, a rare 2/20/some os/goodstuff). Just not Enigma or Fury :)
Trapping: Ok, so I'm hurting my offensive ability by losing Trap laying speed, but that aspect is weaker anyway thanks to losing Enigma. My rough offensive plan would be rapid-fire MB -> swirlies -> traps -> DFlight approach -> WW until death, and so losing frames while trapping means the whole thing cannot be executed as effectively, especially as DF is so slow. With Chaos main and Malice offhand 9 frame traps seems very achievable, as I'd make both in -30 claws, while with Fool's main and Chaos offhand it's much harder, as I'd need a really fast Fool's Claw (which Denton would scoop up :D). I guess that's OK, seeing as the MB/trap lock appears to be best against the low-def characters which I'd be using Malice against.
if you use a malice with 0 WSM and a chaos in a -30 WSM, you'll be able to bug to -45 WSM and make the IAS requirements for trap laying much less (somewhere around 32% iirc). you should actually hit it without any extra ias anywhere in your gear if you bug with those two claws.
p.s. you should be able to shop fools claws from hell anya. will you have access to 2 um runes to socket it with? thats a much better option than a malice imo.
hum I see your point but with 5-10 traps firing in a screen, shadows running around and mindblast animations and whatever, it may be difficult to perform a good namelock teleport without a lock before.
And if your teleport/ww misses, youre in trouble against trappers or ww/trap hybrids, or at least get a good amount of damage usually while dealing no damage to your opponent.
IMO it's hard to spot the DF animation before the actionframe when wofs, ls are firing and with all those lights and whatever [...].
Just wanted to tell everyone who's interested in ghostsins about my _personal_ opinion about DF, and basically I totally agree with you when you say that DF is a rather sucky skill if you're good at namelocking and know PH techniques etc., but there are some (very few) occasions where I actually find DF not THAT bad/useful.
Thanks for your answers x]
hum I see your point but with 5-10 traps firing in a screen, shadows running around and mindblast animations and whatever, it may be difficult to perform a good namelock teleport without a lock before.
And if your teleport/ww misses, youre in trouble against trappers or ww/trap hybrids, or at least get a good amount of damage usually while dealing no damage to your opponent.
IMO it's hard to spot the DF animation before the actionframe when wofs, ls are firing and with all those lights and whatever [...].
Just wanted to tell everyone who's interested in ghostsins about my _personal_ opinion about DF, and basically I totally agree with you when you say that DF is a rather sucky skill if you're good at namelocking and know PH techniques etc., but there are some (very few) occasions where I actually find DF not THAT bad/useful.
Thanks for your answers x]
yea i know what you mean.
i actually see the 5 traps + shadow mb as my reason not to use df, since if you get hit by any of them, you just end up sitting there with your leg up in the air ><.
CaptnSparrow
05-07-2007, 21:35
By the way, don't think I said it before but nice thorough guide. I've been playing with a Ghost on D2PK and I'm trying the Valk set and Circlet set, seeing which I like more.
By the way, don't think I said it before but nice thorough guide. I've been playing with a Ghost on D2PK and I'm trying the Valk set and Circlet set, seeing which I like more.
i think my ghost on d2pk got deleted from inactivity ><. i played over there with max during the school year.
but yea, its mainly a matter of preference and what circlet/rings you have access to. if you find circlet to be a better build though, it doesnt mean you can't just swap on a valk when you need the slot for the absorb rings :wink:.
CaptnSparrow
05-07-2007, 21:44
Yeah.
Currently the D2PK rolling system is messed up with their new patch, so rolling a 2/20 high res visionary helm is going to take awhile. ~~ The 30% Frw on Valk is pretty useful as well, and I'd like to get that on the circ too.
So yeah, overall I think a really awesome circlet could be better than Valk, but as far as the realms are concerned I'll probably go Valk. Finding a 2/20/Vis/30frw/Res circlet on realms would be like... O_o
HappyAssassin
05-07-2007, 22:31
Finding a perm valk on the realms is not easy either. Remember, on d2pk its just a unique, on the realms perm valks are not especially common.
In terms of Dflight in sin v sin, I gotta agree with dave. There's two reasons for this. One, like he said, tele-ww is faster and less risky. You don't need mb spam for a tele-ww. The other mostly applies to ghost vs. hybrid or hybrid vs. hybrid. One of the most important tricks for going offensive vs. a hybrid is shadow use. If you have an immune or tanky shadow (which you are likely to get), you can "place" her with a teleport when you tele in to WW. Instead of just picking up a namelock and teleporting on top with WW (don't mb or they'll see it coming), you teleport near them (not on them, you usually have to aim via the map because they'll be off screen) and WW. The reason for this is that hybrids dueling defensively tend to place their traps slightly in front of themselves, facing towards the opponent. When you land on the traps and WW out of them, your minion stacked shadow will be left behind directly in the traps and you will move out of them at a different angle. Since LS shoots in a straight line, the traps will often miss you completely, meaning you'll either get a clean hit or trade whirlwinds with them. If you're a Ghost vs. Hybrid, trading WWs is how you win the duel, yours are just stronger.
This trick works less well against hybrids who make a trap field than those who keep their traps close together. Also, once you've done the trick a few times they may get smart and start trapping behind themselves, which will really hurt you if you try this. Just keep that in mind :)
i'm glad you mentioned something about the direction of the whirls. when you're dueling full-fledged trappers, you can jump right into traps and whirl without taking any damage. once you get in, just make sure you ww perpendicularly to the way the LS traps are firing, and you'll very rarely get hit, if you even get hit at all.
developing good control of your whirl is very useful.
MysticDragon
05-07-2007, 23:41
No use of Psychic Hammer?
i've always been decent with nl, so my first cast with mb always nl's or is close enough to at least stun with the radius of the MB.
i don't really like using skills like DF and psychic hammer as crutches. they definitely work, but i think its better if you practice without them, since you can definitely outgrow them.
Let me ask a question about the videos. Well, I ended up watching the barbarian video just because I'm a barbarian player myself. It took me about five seconds after the start of the video to realize that the barbarian you were dueling was, well, not so good. Long, random whirls, no namelocks and huge leaps.
So, why even bother posting a video if the opponent is below-average? It shows nothing, except that you can beat below-average BvCs. Hooray? Also, I believe that it would mean a lot more if you posted a video with a top-notch BvC in it. Even though such BvCs are a rare few.
Let me ask a question about the videos. Well, I ended up watching the barbarian video just because I'm a barbarian player myself. It took me about five seconds after the start of the video to realize that the barbarian you were dueling was, well, not so good. Long, random whirls, no namelocks and huge leaps.
So, why even bother posting a video if the opponent is below-average? It shows nothing, except that you can beat below-average BvCs. Hooray? Also, I believe that it would mean a lot more if you posted a video with a top-notch BvC in it. Even though such BvCs are a rare few.
the person on the bvc was actually a necro player. i stated early in the guide that the videos are purely didactic. i felt that even though the barb player was bad, it got the points across, so i included it.
its not there to prove i can win.
CaptnSparrow
06-07-2007, 04:34
I don't think that Hdin was aware of what desynch is either.
On a side note:
di·dac·tic
–adjective
1. intended for instruction; instructive: didactic poetry.
2. inclined to teach or lecture others too much: a boring, didactic speaker.
3. teaching or intending to teach a moral lesson.
4. didactics, (used with a singular verb) the art or science of teaching.
I had to look it up. iOi
I don't think that Hdin was aware of what desynch is either.
On a side note:
di·dac·tic
–adjective
1. intended for instruction; instructive: didactic poetry.
2. inclined to teach or lecture others too much: a boring, didactic speaker.
3. teaching or intending to teach a moral lesson.
4. didactics, (used with a singular verb) the art or science of teaching.
I had to look it up. iOi
:tongue:
actually its sort of weird because usually, that hammerdin desyncs like mad. he's probably one of the worst desyncers (best at desyncing) that i know. i just try to spam mb a little bit before teleing to try to get the paladin to resync.
CaptnSparrow
06-07-2007, 05:45
Really? That's odd stuff. In the vid it looked like he didn't try and make some distance, and he paused extremely often in his short charges to hammer.
Or maybe you just made it look easy. x.o
Really? That's odd stuff. In the vid it looked like he didn't try and make some distance, and he paused extremely often in his short charges to hammer.
Or maybe you just made it look easy. x.o
not sure. i actually think that desyncing large distances isn't really all that useful vs a ghost, since i'll just nl the image of you behind you and tele on top anyway. having more concentrated hammer fields seems like a better strategy.
CaptnSparrow
06-07-2007, 06:34
Well if he can have hammers landing on top of him consistently then it could work, but if he makes a short charge and throws hammers that end up behind him, lining up a nicely angled whirl doesn't seem like it'd be very hard.
Well if he can have hammers landing on top of him consistently then it could work, but if he makes a short charge and throws hammers that end up behind him, lining up a nicely angled whirl doesn't seem like it'd be very hard.
even if he does short charges, i still noticed that when i nl tele, i don't land on him. it doesn't really matter how far desynced the paladin is away; as long as i whirl in the right direction, i should still be able to hit, even if the paladin is nowhere to be seen the moment i land on him. stun is a great way to counter deysnc though :thumbsup:.
i don't really care how much the paladin is desynced though. all i'm worried about is making sure that i have a wof supplementing my mb stun to cover for me the moment i teleport and start whirling, or that i cast my teleport when the paladin is charging. its just all about making sure that the paladin isn't casting hammer the moment you teleport; if you can do that, you should never get hit as long as you whirl and get out in time.
Finding a perm valk on the realms is not easy either. Remember, on d2pk its just a unique, on the realms perm valks are not especially common.
In terms of Dflight in sin v sin, I gotta agree with dave. There's two reasons for this. One, like he said, tele-ww is faster and less risky. You don't need mb spam for a tele-ww. The other mostly applies to ghost vs. hybrid or hybrid vs. hybrid. One of the most important tricks for going offensive vs. a hybrid is shadow use. If you have an immune or tanky shadow (which you are likely to get), you can "place" her with a teleport when you tele in to WW. Instead of just picking up a namelock and teleporting on top with WW (don't mb or they'll see it coming), you teleport near them (not on them, you usually have to aim via the map because they'll be off screen) and WW. The reason for this is that hybrids dueling defensively tend to place their traps slightly in front of themselves, facing towards the opponent. When you land on the traps and WW out of them, your minion stacked shadow will be left behind directly in the traps and you will move out of them at a different angle. Since LS shoots in a straight line, the traps will often miss you completely, meaning you'll either get a clean hit or trade whirlwinds with them. If you're a Ghost vs. Hybrid, trading WWs is how you win the duel, yours are just stronger.
This trick works less well against hybrids who make a trap field than those who keep their traps close together. Also, once you've done the trick a few times they may get smart and start trapping behind themselves, which will really hurt you if you try this. Just keep that in mind :)
This is some very good advice. I havent really though about that yet, although I sometimes ww people that are offscreen without namelock.
Thanks for this, I'll test that in duels.
@PH: I find ph really good. I don't think that I'm a bad or slow namelocker, but against fast casters that teleport in zigzacs PH makes things just a lot easier.
And on a sidenote: PH is also a great finisher because it autoaims. It does less damage than MB, so you gotta be sure that your opponent is very, very low on life, though.
A special occasion that should be mentioned at this place is PH against necros that use bone armor [means all necros ^_^]. BA sorbs physical damage and mindblast is 100% physical damage, which means that you cannot finish a 1life necro with mindblast (assuming he keeps BA upright).
But PH is split into physical damage and MAGIC damage, which goes through bone armor, so you can kill 1life necros easily with PH. This can be really handy to finish them off when they bled to 1 life.
This is some very good advice. I havent really though about that yet, although I sometimes ww people that are offscreen without namelock.
Thanks for this, I'll test that in duels.
@PH: I find ph really good. I don't think that I'm a bad or slow namelocker, but against fast casters that teleport in zigzacs PH makes things just a lot easier.
And on a sidenote: PH is also a great finisher because it autoaims. It does less damage than MB, so you gotta be sure that your opponent is very, very low on life, though.
A special occasion that should be mentioned at this place is PH against necros that use bone armor [means all necros ^_^]. BA sorbs physical damage and mindblast is 100% physical damage, which means that you cannot finish a 1life necro with mindblast (assuming he keeps BA upright).
But PH is split into physical damage and MAGIC damage, which goes through bone armor, so you can kill 1life necros easily with PH. This can be really handy to finish them off when they bled to 1 life.
PH is definitely a good finisher for necros, but the damage is so low that you don't have much time to land a hit with it before the nec replens enough life for PH not to slay them.
my problem with PH is that when people use it as a crutch for namelocking, PH has the chance to target one of the minions, and before you notice it, the enemy will have 1-2 uncontested casts. if you use MB, the aoe will usually catch them, even if you don't get the nl right away. in addition, when you use PH to get the initial stun, thats an extra 1-2 casts before you tele whirl. when i play against casters, i usually only need to mb 1-2 times before i can tele right in and start the whirling sequence. if i were to use PH, it would require at least one extra cast while i transfered to MB for the swirly before i could tele whirl, leaving me open to those homing missles just a little bit longer.
and i think most importantly, is that when you are aggressive on a ghost, the first cast you make when you make contact with the opponent is a trap, not MB or PH. if you start with MB and then try and keep them stunned while you cast a trap, you'll never catch them. just use the first trap cast as a cushion for you to get your NL as soon as you switch to mb, since the wof doesn't have to be NL'd to be effective.
i definitely experimented with PH as part of a stunning combination with MB and as a finisher for necros, but i arrived at the conclusion that if you know how to use MB/traps/whirls/melee attacks well, you'll duel much better without PH. maybe thats just me. i'm not sure. :shocked:
wizAdept
07-07-2007, 12:14
I'll disagree with ya TienJe :P
Personally I love ph. I dont see it as much as a crutch for namelocking, since I can namelock fine with mindblast all the time if I wanted to. One of the advantages of ph is it doesnt cast unless it has a target. This means if you can predict where a caster will land on your screen, you can move your mouse there ahead of time, switch to ph, hold down mouse2. Soon as the caster teles within range of your ph, your character will cast right away. Although you can spam mindblast by predicting where your opponent will land, the advantage of using ph is it starts to cast as soon as your opponent teles on your screen, before their cooldown cast animation finishes, even with perfect timing with mindblast, you can lose a few frames time if you tried to do the same with mindblasting someone when they tele under your mouse. This onetime kb 7 frames (@ 65 cast) after your opponent's activeframe from their tele, which is sure to kick in before whatever spell they wanted to followup their tele with, so imo it's more safe to use ph for a defensive technique like this than mindblast.
Also about casting ph through summons, not sure what it is about ph, but I always seem to hit necros or whatever character through them. Ive killed some druids through 5 wolves summoned when they had 1 hp offscreen. I dont know how to explain this except to "feel out" how to aim ph through summons. It can be done. Im fairly comfortable hitting necros offscreen through golem stack.
Of course you can duel fine with just mindblast, but having the understanding of how to use ph is always a great trick to have up your sleve, as long as you dont mind the extra hotkey. That and it's fun to phpk people offscreen. :P
I'll disagree with ya TienJe :P
Personally I love ph. I dont see it as much as a crutch for namelocking, since I can namelock fine with mindblast all the time if I wanted to. One of the advantages of ph is it doesnt cast unless it has a target. This means if you can predict where a caster will land on your screen, you can move your mouse there ahead of time, switch to ph, hold down mouse2. Soon as the caster teles within range of your ph, your character will cast right away. Although you can spam mindblast by predicting where your opponent will land, the advantage of using ph is it starts to cast as soon as your opponent teles on your screen, before their cooldown cast animation finishes, even with perfect timing with mindblast, you can lose a few frames time if you tried to do the same with mindblasting someone when they tele under your mouse. This onetime kb 7 frames (@ 65 cast) after your opponent's activeframe from their tele, which is sure to kick in before whatever spell they wanted to followup their tele with, so imo it's more safe to use ph for a defensive technique like this than mindblast.
Also about casting ph through summons, not sure what it is about ph, but I always seem to hit necros or whatever character through them. Ive killed some druids through 5 wolves summoned when they had 1 hp offscreen. I dont know how to explain this except to "feel out" how to aim ph through summons. It can be done. Im fairly comfortable hitting necros offscreen through golem stack.
Of course you can duel fine with just mindblast, but having the understanding of how to use ph is always a great trick to have up your sleve, as long as you dont mind the extra hotkey. That and it's fun to phpk people offscreen. :P
i guess thats where the difference of styles comes in.
i'm usually always casting something; theres never a time when i wait a tad for the other guy to come on the screen. i know what you mean about the perfect timing, but usually i'm the one jumping on the screen of the other guy, so MB and PH have the same timing for me. but like i said before, i don't think i'd ever use the PH as a combo with MB, because i'm used to using the initial trap as my NL cushion, instead of transfering the stun from PH. there's a definite use for PH as a slaying skill like everyone has been saying, but i haven't really found myself using it, even when it was hotkeyed.
its definitely a useful skill for a trapper, but for a ghost, i'm definitely on the other side of the fence.
darkelrond
13-07-2007, 16:32
ha nice job tienje again :p making you way over to diabloii i can see and sharing the love of the ghost sin haha
ha nice job tienje again :p making you way over to diabloii i can see and sharing the love of the ghost sin haha
:afro:
which other forums are you from?
darkelrond
13-07-2007, 19:09
im from cc-comp.org that how i dueled was able to duel u b4 u helped me change up my whole setup
CaptnSparrow
16-07-2007, 10:36
Why is he banned?
Unban right now.
HappyAssassin
16-07-2007, 12:00
Don't worry guys.
MysticDragon
18-07-2007, 05:13
I love playing a Ghost. It's so fun. :) I've been playing it for a few days and I'm learning fast. :)
BvC vs Nec
Ghost vs Nec
2 most fun duels ever for me.
I love playing a Ghost. It's so fun. :) I've been playing it for a few days and I'm learning fast. :)
BvC vs Nec
Ghost vs Nec
2 most fun duels ever for me.
trying to dodge floating sperm is A+.
P.S. hi~!
If you have a claw fast enough for 9 frame trap laying, your WW will be fast enough.
If I understand right:if I have in my primary slot(left)a fury greater talon and in other hand a feral chaos,I have the maximum ww speed?
If I understand right:if I have in my primary slot(left)a fury greater talon and in other hand a feral chaos,I have the maximum ww speed?
the BP's for WW are calculated by taking your WSM and subtracting the IAS for each claw (each claw is independent from the other). 4 frame WW comes when you get a number that is >= -14
if you have a fury GT and a feral chaos, thats -70 and -55, both of which are definitely fast enough to achieve the 4 frame ww speed.
A question to the moderators:
Why did this topic get stickied? It does advocate the banned .08 items (Valk) and dupes (Imp Shank). Isn't that against the rules?
Quite odd, lately the mods haven't cared about the clear advocating of dupes in guides. The last case I remember that got attention was Camden's guide because it had pictures and mentioned the dupes as the only choices.
Seems you don't have problems suggesting dupes (http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5688940&postcount=8)
If you have a problem with this guide beeing stickied pm a mod.
Keep the posts on topic.
A question to the moderators:
Why did this topic get stickied? It does advocate the banned .08 items (Valk) and dupes (Imp Shank). Isn't that against the rules?
Quite odd, lately the mods haven't cared about the clear advocating of dupes in guides. The last case I remember that got attention was Camden's guide because it had pictures and mentioned the dupes as the only choices.
i actually advocate not using valk as a helm because it results in an overall ****tier setup. the imp shanks for examples of the best type of boots to get, but nowhere in the guide is a dupe listed as the only option. just like mentioning fine/vita scs, its clear the duped 3/20/20's are the best option, but by no means is it the only solution to the problem.
i'm glad you took the time to read through it, even if it was just to spot check for rule infringements.
I love playing a Ghost. It's so fun. :) I've been playing it for a few days and I'm learning fast. :)
BvC vs Nec
Ghost vs Nec
2 most fun duels ever for me.
Yoose my sin moar :tongue:
MysticDragon
20-07-2007, 02:10
Yoose my sin moar :tongue:
Oh, you know I will. :)
And I getting better too. Right? Guys? Hello?
Oh, you know I will. :)
And I getting better too. Right? Guys? Hello?
silly_willy #1 necro
aman helped me make some edits.
new videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii4P911TzuE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM9yTfeWnaQ
... and a few new descriptions to match them.
Tien, do you build in Maras +5 attributes to your Enigma (regular) setup?
Koo vids.
Tien, do you build in Maras +5 attributes to your Enigma (regular) setup?
Koo vids.
i actually built with a highlords. my ghost uses something closer to the physical emphasis setup. whether you build for the maras or not depends on whether you'll be using nok or some other setups. usually, the only ammy switch out for is cats eye, so that i can use a nef widowmaker vs barbs.
HappyAssassin
21-07-2007, 03:30
It's also nice to keep 65 FCR in some setups, like wearing Tgods or switching out rings. The best way to get this is to use a 5%+ or 15%+ ammy, which will likely not have +stats. I didn't build my maras in personally.
i actually built with a highlords. my ghost uses something closer to the physical emphasis setup. whether you build for the maras or not depends on whether you'll be using nok or some other setups. usually, the only ammy switch out for is cats eye, so that i can use a nef widowmaker vs barbs.
Hm, ok.
I personally don't like sorb :P But the Cat's Eye thing sounds interesting. My Widowmaker is Hel'd, and I did kind of screw up my stat points a bit on my remake. Added two extra points in Dex to use Hel'd Widow, but I forgot that on CtA switch I lose 10 STR from Chaos -> no str for Dancers -> no dex for Widow. I do have a Highlord's planned for a Fort switch, but that's it.
I think I might just do a 2nd remake to fix the problem and add in the Cat's Eye thing. Dunno.
i think also should be noted that you can achieve all these different res setups without swapping out an ammy, namely through differently socketed 2/20/2 circlets, with 2lo's, 2vex, etc. if you utilize WSM bugging, you won't need the ias in the helm, and should be to swap those out readily.
EDIT: tbh, i wouldn't remake if its just a matter of a few points. i've seen some really ****tily built ghosts do very well. a hundred life or so won't make much of a difference at all.
i think also should be noted that you can achieve all these different res setups without swapping out an ammy, namely through differently socketed 2/20/2 circlets, with 2lo's, 2vex, etc. if you utilize WSM bugging, you won't need the ias in the helm, and should be to swap those out readily.
EDIT: tbh, i wouldn't remake if its just a matter of a few points. i've seen some really ****tily built ghosts do very well. a hundred life or so won't make much of a difference at all.
It's a matter of two points :laugh:
not worth a remake lol, just level up once more or let it be :P
It's a matter of two points :laugh:
oh god lmfao.
you sir, are bad.
oh god lmfao.
you sir, are bad.
I'm not the only one! :tongue:
Summerfun
23-07-2007, 00:32
A couple of years ago i made a new sin and got her to lvl 92 or more, cant remember exactly.
I had just added enough str and dex and was redy to blow the rest in life when d2 lagged. i pressed the mouse a couple of times and i lost my connection.
When i entered a new game a had myself a brand new sin with all the points in STR and base life.
THANKS B.net
A couple of years ago i made a new sin and got her to lvl 92 or more, cant remember exactly.
I had just added enough str and dex and was redy to blow the rest in life when d2 lagged. i pressed the mouse a couple of times and i lost my connection.
When i entered a new game a had myself a brand new sin with all the points in STR and base life.
THANKS B.net
At least if you decide to kick with DTalon it'll do godly damage :tongue:
darkelrond
26-07-2007, 16:57
yo tienje i have like 7 extra skill points left and i maxed out fade so u htink i hsould these points in to blade fury or shadow would extra points in shadow really benefit me
yo tienje i have like 7 extra skill points left and i maxed out fade so u htink i hsould these points in to blade fury or shadow would extra points in shadow really benefit me
you could pump your shadow, more into claw block, or probably the best option (if you use it), would be to pump dclaw/dtalon. getting a point into LS could also be useful, though i've never found a need for it.
RedemptioN
26-07-2007, 18:53
Extra points is exactly the reason why I chose to hybridize Wake of Fire and WW.
HappyAssassin
26-07-2007, 21:47
Get a point in LS, it has 3 uses:
1) Mix LS with a camping trappers traps. Because your shadow MBs off screen so often, the trapper often gets hit and stuck on the LS, allowing you to jump in and either WW or build a real stun lock.
2) I really think it stuns barbs better. If you get a couple LS on a barb at the end of his WW, he can get stuck in place long enough for you to WW him.
3) The long range helps against desync running zons and runners.
Also, sometimes if people see LS they assume you're a hybrid and stack up light res = gear they aren't using for FCR, DR or w/e.
Extra shadow points don't help much.
Make sure you have 60% claw block in ALL setups, remember that when you put on stack/sorb/FHR you can lose +skills and thus a % of claw block.
After that yah, dump points to your left click melee.
darkelrond
26-07-2007, 22:03
wow nice thnx alot tienje and ollie that was some good info lol il be putting in ls and one more question is it a big diffrence putting in 7 points into wof or 7 points into ls
RedemptioN
26-07-2007, 22:11
Do not put 7 points into either. You won't get enough damage to make it worth your while. Both your WoF and LS should be lvl 1 unless you decide to make a hybridsin. In the event that you make a hybrid sin, you have to change your skills and gear completely.
Like they said, make sure you have 60% Clawblock, your Shadow is lvl 17 or above, you have 1pt in LS, 1 pt in Blade Shield (if you don't get from your claws), 1 pt in DF (if you dont get from your claws), enough fade for max DR.
Then you have a couple options if you still have points:
1.) Cloak of Shadows: you could pump into this to boost your ar and lower your enemie's def
2.) Fade: More points = more res (and DR)
3.) Dragon Talon or Dragon Claw: your left click skill which helps vs chars with summons or when you really can't afford to miss a triwhirl.
I think that about covers your possibilities.
wizAdept
26-07-2007, 22:13
Unless you are going with a trapper hybrid (meaning maxed traps and synergies) you should be using both wof and ls as 1 point skills.
If you are not playing a hybrid I recommend you get 1 point in blade fury as well. 1 point in flight can be useful but its possible to play without it.
Whats your skill layout so far? (with those 7 unspent points)
darkelrond
27-07-2007, 03:59
Unless you are going with a trapper hybrid (meaning maxed traps and synergies) you should be using both wof and ls as 1 point skills.
If you are not playing a hybrid I recommend you get 1 point in blade fury as well. 1 point in flight can be useful but its possible to play without it.
Whats your skill layout so far? (with those 7 unspent points)
maxed venom maxed claw mastery maxed fade just enough i have 60% maxed mb 1 in dflight 1 in blade fury/sheild 1 in shadow master i think thtats it
So I'm starting to save up wealth to begin making one of these fine ladies and I'm just curious as to what people prefer, a damage or poison oriented Ghost Sin? Which is more well rounded? I will mostly be playing in pups or with remote friends, not saying I don't have a general idea about what I'm doing (Do give me the bad kid route :D) I played with a Full WW Bramble sin for almost a year, but I for the most part will not be doing weapon switches and sorbs. Thank you.
HappyAssassin
27-07-2007, 20:59
Which is better??? Oooo I wish I knew!
There's a lot of factors that come into play here. First of all, Venom gets a boost in Hell difficulty. On West Ladder (where my Ghost was originally made), all duels were done in Hell difficulty. TienJe's ghost was made on West NL, where they typically have priv duels in Nightmare. Venom does slightly less damage in nightmare, making physical more desirable for duels there (in my opinion). Also, physical ghosts make better teammates with necros, since they benefit more from amp.
Whats the difference between a physical ghost and a venom based one? Usually they have similar damage on Fury side, on Chaos side the Physical ghost will display around 700 more damage than the Venom. The similar fury damages are deceptive, a larger % of the physical ghost's damage is of course physical, which takes only a 50% penalty vs. an opponent as opposed to 75% (assuming the opponent has maxed DR and PSN RES). On the otherside of the equation, the Venom based ghost's Venom benefits more from the 25% double application bug. Also in Hell duels the penalty to opponents PLR will mean that Venom based ghosts will do even more damage.
Both Ghosts benefit from Deadly Strike, the physical ghost benefits more. Physical ghosts usually stack more deadly strike, giving them even higher damage.
Venom Ghosts have higher shadow skills in general, their mind blast does more damage, they have an easier time having max DR, they get a higher claw block % (mine has 61).
What it really comes down to is preference. Do you duel in NM or Hell? Do you like a slightly more caster-like Ghost (venom) or a more melee oriented one (physical? Are your triwhirls perfect (physical benefits more from a perfect triwhirl due to the frequency of hits)? Do you often team duel with a necro partner?
At the end of the day, I think that it comes down to preference. It's worth noting that physical Ghosts require a high damage eth bug claw, which is rare and expensive. My Venom based ghost is doing just fine dueling the same people as TienJe's ghost (he does better, but that's down to him being a better player as opposed to his build) in nightmare, so your choice is really between two very similar builds in terms of effectiveness.
Which is better??? Oooo I wish I knew!
There's a lot of factors that come into play here. First of all, Venom gets a boost in Hell difficulty. On West Ladder (where my Ghost was originally made), all duels were done in Hell difficulty. TienJe's ghost was made on West NL, where they typically have priv duels in Nightmare. Venom does slightly less damage in nightmare, making physical more desirable for duels there (in my opinion). Also, physical ghosts make better teammates with necros, since they benefit more from amp.
Whats the difference between a physical ghost and a venom based one? Usually they have similar damage on Fury side, on Chaos side the Physical ghost will display around 700 more damage than the Venom. The similar fury damages are deceptive, a larger % of the physical ghost's damage is of course physical, which takes only a 50% penalty vs. an opponent as opposed to 75% (assuming the opponent has maxed DR and PSN RES). On the otherside of the equation, the Venom based ghost's Venom benefits more from the 25% double application bug. Also in Hell duels the penalty to opponents PLR will mean that Venom based ghosts will do even more damage.
Both Ghosts benefit from Deadly Strike, the physical ghost benefits more. Physical ghosts usually stack more deadly strike, giving them even higher damage.
Venom Ghosts have higher shadow skills in general, their mind blast does more damage, they have an easier time having max DR, they get a higher claw block % (mine has 61).
What it really comes down to is preference. Do you duel in NM or Hell? Do you like a slightly more caster-like Ghost (venom) or a more melee oriented one (physical? Are your triwhirls perfect (physical benefits more from a perfect triwhirl due to the frequency of hits)? Do you often team duel with a necro partner?
At the end of the day, I think that it comes down to preference. It's worth noting that physical Ghosts require a high damage eth bug claw, which is rare and expensive. My Venom based ghost is doing just fine dueling the same people as TienJe's ghost (he does better, but that's down to him being a better player as opposed to his build) in nightmare, so your choice is really between two very similar builds in terms of effectiveness.
i have to agree with ollie here, about it being mainly an object of preference. both builds will do just fine given the same amount of skill; even a really poorly ghost will do just fine if you play it right.
but i wanted to make a couple of points. when ollie said that the PD% compounding bug made the poison damage stronger, the character screen already reflects that, so you don't need to compound your 25% from trangs a second time. i've usually found that physically oriented ghosts come up with less damage on the char screen, but because the physical damage is instantaneous (instead of over 10 frames like venom), the effective damage comes out to be very close for block characters, and of course, physical is better for vita characters, while venom is better for ES.
like ollie had mentioned, poison sins definitely get more shadow skills, and end up being a little bit more "tank-y", because they usually have higher fade and clawblock. they also get a few more points to mess around with, since they won't need as many into fade/clawblock.
the last thing i want to mention is that per given claw setup (chaos+fury/chaos+fools), the shadow gcs of the venom setup will result in lower AR. depending on who you duel, it might be a factor.
just to sort of explain my thought process between the separation of these two types, you need to consider the overall life into the mix. its very easy to get both a decently high physical damage (fatty claws + highlords), and also high venom damage (lots of gcs), but you'll be left with a sin thats suffering in the life department. the reason why physical ghosts can use fatty claws with high requirements is because the amount of life from SCs will help to counter the extra stats placed (and it just so happens that the scs can spawn with +max damage). with a venom ghost, people stick with lower damage and lower req claws so that they can keep their life high while keeping their damage at a decent amount.
just understand that the magnitude of the effects of these equipment/build changes are relatively small. both builds will have very decent venom damage and OW (huge source of damage), but the physical will substitute a little bit of venom for a little bit more physical. its nowhere near the 100% emphasis change that the names suggest.
RedemptioN
27-07-2007, 22:07
I use venom based strictly because it is MUCH cheaper than a physical based sin (37x 3/xx/20's don't come cheap) and I get more dmg from Widowmaker than on a physical based sin (Not completely sure on this, but Im just assuming).
I use venom based strictly because it is MUCH cheaper than a physical based sin (37x 3/xx/20's don't come cheap) and I get more dmg from Widowmaker on a physical based sin (Not completely sure on this, but Im just assuming).
i'm pretty sure you're right about the widow thing, although i've heard that the character screen lies about the pd, since the %pd doesn't get compounded twice like on melee attacks.
At the end of the day, I think that it comes down to preference. It's worth noting that physical Ghosts require a high damage eth bug claw
So your telling me either my Chaos or Fury will need to be Eth Bugged? That sucks (Then again some godly Blue Fools modded claw isn't exactly cheap and easy to find either)...Also, is the reason behind not using Suwayyahs due to their trap laying speed? I will be playing in Hell and Hell only, pretty much just public games, I am very huge on PvM but I like to PvP every once and a while to escape from all the repition of runs and such :D. I appreciate your guy's help, but ARG I don't know which one to choose!
So your telling me either my Chaos or Fury will need to be Eth Bugged? That sucks (Then again some godly Blue Fools modded claw isn't exactly cheap and easy to find either)...Also, is the reason behind not using Suwayyahs due to their trap laying speed? I will be playing in Hell and Hell only, pretty much just public games, I am very huge on PvM but I like to PvP every once and a while to escape from all the repition of runs and such :D. I appreciate your guy's help, but ARG I don't know which one to choose!
Ebug's aren't absolutely necessary, but it does give the physical ghosts a huge boost over the venom setups imo. if you are under a price constraint, like redemption said, just use the poison setup; its much cheaper and will work just fine.
the guide says to stick to ferals/gt/runics because the other claws are too slow to reach 9 frame trap laying within reasonable limits. you are welcome to use suwayyahs though, especially if you are WSM bugging.
P.S. ghosts are probably #1 worst pvm :laughing:
Ebug's aren't absolutely necessary, but it does give the physical ghosts a huge boost over the venom setups imo. if you are under a price constraint, like redemption said, just use the poison setup; its much cheaper and will work just fine.
the guide says to stick to ferals/gt/runics because the other claws are too slow to reach 9 frame trap laying within reasonable limits. you are welcome to use suwayyahs though, especially if you are WSM bugging.
P.S. ghosts are probably #1 worst pvm :laughing:
Money isn't an issue :D, one of the benefits of playing loads of PvM. Looking back through the posts, so would a Venom Build be better than a Physical in Hell Pubs? He mentioned Physical being better for NM Privates.
they are both very viable builds in hell. in my opinion it really just depends on if you have the scs to build a physical sin or not. besides from that fact they are similar builds concerning gear and skills.
also u live in my city. :P
they are both very viable builds in hell. in my opinion it really just depends on if you have the scs to build a physical sin or not. besides from that fact they are similar builds concerning gear and skills.
also u live in my city. :P
Hehe nice :D, I'm actually in Clovis right meow around Barstow and Temperance moving to Cedar and Alluvial though here pretty soon, you familair with the area?
for sure. your kinda out by clovis high.
Out of curiosity, whats the theoretical point where you can consider a ghost physical vs venom (aside from the use of Highlords & ebug claw), i.e. the mix of charms.
Is it the 31x fine smalls ? I have 7 Shadow GCs & others are fine/low life smalls. Also, I use 2x non-eth Fury/Chaos suwayyahs. I'm at 10 frames w/ 15ias ***. & Highlords. Do you think its even worth pursuing physical at this point or just settle for venom emphasis?
Out of curiosity, whats the theoretical point where you can consider a ghost physical vs venom (aside from the use of Highlords & ebug claw), i.e. the mix of charms.
Is it the 31x fine smalls ? I have 7 Shadow GCs & others are fine/low life smalls. Also, I use 2x non-eth Fury/Chaos suwayyahs. I'm at 10 frames w/ 15ias ***. & Highlords. Do you think its even worth pursuing physical at this point or just settle for venom emphasis?
there really is no threshold, as it depends on who you're dueling, since the benefit of physical damage over venom depends on how quickly the whirlwind can hit.
i wrote a long answer, but i closed the window accidentally, and i'm feeling pretty lazy tonight, so i'll just summarize what i wrote before.
you already have both the requirements for venom emphasis (high # of gcs) and for physical emphasis (high damage claws + HL). the thing you should be worried about right now is life. if your life is fine, then theres no need to change anything; you have a good balance between both worlds. if you feel you want more life, then you should lean towards one of the poles a little bit more, and either go to lower req claws + maras (or other gear changes), or more fine/vita scs.
in either case, switch your fury to either a GT/runic (depending on your stat situation), and then WSM bug, so that you can get 9 frame traps without the 15% ias in your helm.
but like i said earlier, the magnitude of these changes is very small compared to your overall damage. you probably won't really be able to notice the difference in general pvp.
Noted.
I guess my concern is towards pubby psn. stack since publand is the only place I duel now. Was hoping physical dmg sin could hurt them enough.
HappyAssassin
30-07-2007, 06:11
Very few people in pubs stack out venom. Despite the easy access to 85 poison resists, the vast majority of people do not take advantage of it. In fact, it often works the other way. Poison resist is not found on many resist boots, and many players don't bother with it as much simply because it is uncommon. I have no way of know what's on pub players screens, but from what I've seen there is a greater predominance of players with low poison resists than high ones. Then again, there are plenty of pub players who wear virtually no DR also. The point here is the most pub players aren't very clever, so your milage may vary depending on what particular type of idiot you run into.
RedemptioN
30-07-2007, 09:24
Very few people in pubs stack out venom. Despite the easy access to 85 poison resists, the vast majority of people do not take advantage of it. In fact, it often works the other way. Poison resist is not found on many resist boots, and many players don't both with it as much simply because it is uncommon. I have no way of know what's on pub players screens, but from what I've seen there is a greater predominance of players with poison resists than high ones. Then again, there are plenty of pub players who wear virtually no DR also. The point here is the most pub players aren't very clever, so your milage may vary depending on what particular type of idiot you run into.
Very true towards pubs, but as a general rule of thumb, many people have lower DR than they do have max res. Max res is fairly easy to get, when max DR isn't. Also note that DR only reduces your dmg by 50% max, whereas poison can be resisted 75%. It's been said but yea...
You'll definately do fine in pubs with venom build, but physical build is the way to go in my opinion, just to give fast dmg to unsuspecting, DR-deprived victims.
HappyAssassin
30-07-2007, 11:30
Follow up to that, if you team duel at all with your Ghost then you will quickly see that AMP is a huge factor for a physical WWsin that will help a Venom ghost much less.
Follow up to that, if you team duel at all with your Ghost then you will quickly see that AMP is a huge factor for a physical WWsin that will help a Venom ghost much less.
i think ollie was at least a little surprised when he saw me jump straight onto barbs in team duels with amp floating over our heads :prop:.
RedemptioN
30-07-2007, 21:00
i think ollie was at least a little surprised when he saw me jump straight onto barbs in team duels with amp floating over our heads :prop:.
Lol nice. :shocked:
Lol nice. :shocked:
that's one of the best smilies i've seen in a while.
MysticDragon
30-07-2007, 22:40
that's one of the best smilies i've seen in a while.
:azn: is the best one, though. :P
What do you have a harder time against? C/C Trappers or WW/Trappers?
RedemptioN
30-07-2007, 22:53
On my ghost I had a harder time vs WW/Trappers. Pure trappers werent too bad because you can tele in really quickly, ww, then tele out and let them bleed. But with LS/WW, when they see you teleing towards them, they can start wwing and you tele on their ww, which not only hurts you but kills your Light Immune Shadow Master.
i probably had a harder time with fast-locking camping pure trappers, although the ww/ls that just whirl away are ridiculously annoying too, but having that widow on switch really helps for both of those duels :shocked:.
RedemptioN
31-07-2007, 02:28
i probably had a harder time with the pure trappers if they camped, although the ww/ls that just whirl away are ridiculously annoying too, but having that widow on switch really helps for both of those duels :shocked:.
Yea true. :afro:
HappyAssassin
31-07-2007, 09:16
i probably had a harder time with fast-locking camping pure trappers,
vouch this. A C/C camping trapper who can lock is a real pain. Most WW/trappers at least have the decency to play a balanced duel, but IMO a ghost should beat WW/Trappers though hitting them while they recast traps, spammed MB and forcing them to trade WWs.
Do you think Scissors Suwayyahs are a waste to use with this build? cant seem to find decent claws to make chaos/fury =/
you can use the claw positioning bug, but you still need at least one GT or RT to make it work properly.
^ You referring to Trap Laying or WW'ing?
I know it will hit last ww bp, its trap laying that im worried about it.
Thanks but I prefer not to rely on any bugs of that nature, anyways, so to hit last trap laying bp with chaos/fury I definetely need the 3 types of claws mentioned on this guide, no other way around it?
Thanks but I prefer not to rely on any bugs of that nature, anyways, so to hit last trap laying bp with chaos/fury I definetely need the 3 types of claws mentioned on this guide, no other way around it?
you can always use heavier claws, but it'll just require much more IAS to hit your 9 frame trap laying BP. you could also just aim for 10 frame traps, but its all up to you.
if you want to hit 9 frame traps efficiently, you need to stay within those 3 claw types.
Bah ok! Thanks for help. Time to look for those claws!
Skull Bash
03-08-2007, 10:32
Great Guide, Out of curiousity, how do Ghosts do in PvM?
RedemptioN
03-08-2007, 11:17
Great Guide, Out of curiousity, how do Ghosts do in PvM?
Not very well.
MysticDragon
03-08-2007, 18:07
They do okay with Talon, CoS, and MB.
Is it feasible to use Burst of Speed(to make up for ias) and use heavier claws?
Is it feasible to use Burst of Speed(to make up for ias) and use heavier claws?
Re: PM'd
:drunk:
I suck at this type of sin, lol. Dont know if its the nature of pubbies where youre swarmed by all sorts or I got used to relying on traps on my hybrid or my reflexes are lagged.
Namelocking is so hard to establish and ww drivebys sound easier than reality. Any practical tips or should I just keep at it ? Did it take time for y'all too ? So frustrating but I think theres nothing to do but keep at it...
I suck at this type of sin, lol. Dont know if its the nature of pubbies where youre swarmed by all sorts or I got used to relying on traps on my hybrid or my reflexes are lagged.
Namelocking is so hard to establish and ww drivebys sound easier than reality. Any practical tips or should I just keep at it ? Did it take time for y'all too ? So frustrating but I think theres nothing to do but keep at it...
a couple of tips:
1. all the nl's should come from MB
2. use your initial trap cast as "buffer time" for your initial NL when you show up on your opponents screen
3. don't try and make "ww driveby's"; always nl with MB before you tele on them (you'll want that swirly anyway)
4. use the corners of your screen to keep distance while trying to establish stun
5. never jump on someone without stun first
just practice, and watch some of the videos if you want some guidance/are bored.
Sorry about the barrage of newbie questions TienJe. I didn't know you couldnt have fade and bos at the same time.
<-- newbie sin
I crafted a bad *** 10 FCR 5% Bonus AR Ring, should I use it over a STR/FCR Ring? On another note, I am having the hardest time finding Feral and Runic Chaos and Furys, everyone has them in Suwayyahs! I'm also having a trip finding a white 3/os Claw with decent mods...this build is sending me for trip.
I crafted a bad *** 10 FCR 5% Bonus AR Ring, should I use it over a STR/FCR Ring? On another note, I am having the hardest time finding Feral and Runic Chaos and Furys, everyone has them in Suwayyahs! I'm also having a trip finding a white 3/os Claw with decent mods...this build is sending me for trip.
use whichever ring is better of course. equipment choice has never been absolute, and this is no exception.
i had the same trouble finding my claws too. i ended up just chaosing a lot and looking for white claws to socket with larzuk :shocked:.
CaptnSparrow
04-08-2007, 09:54
I crafted a bad *** 10 FCR 5% Bonus AR Ring, should I use it over a STR/FCR Ring? On another note, I am having the hardest time finding Feral and Runic Chaos and Furys, everyone has them in Suwayyahs! I'm also having a trip finding a white 3/os Claw with decent mods...this build is sending me for trip.
I find assassins to be one of the hardest character types to build, from a financial and time required perspective. Claws and Circlets are two things that always prove difficult for the "non insanely wealthy."
As for your ring, if you're not using dual ravens, your priority for the second ring is fcr, then resists, then ar, then dex, then str. However, I personally would never build my ring stats into my character, since I may need to switch it out on occasion. So yes, use the 10/5% over 10/str.
After much trading finally found a 3os Runic with 2 venom 1 LS 3 BoF.
:)~ Made it into a Chaos, got a low roll. =/ 294...
Now, theres this guy with a +3 venom(I think feral or runic, cant remember)
Should I look for more mods or is that +3 venom alone is good enough to make a Fury? I might hold out for one that has DT so I dont have to spend those points.
Im at 40 FHR and 60 FCR is that good enough? I'd like to wear dual Ravens over a FCR ring. Also like to sport 2 Lifer SD GCs over FHR.
Im at 40 FHR and 60 FCR is that good enough? I'd like to wear dual Ravens over a FCR ring. Also like to sport 2 Lifer SD GCs over FHR.
breakpoints mean that you need to hit those %'s until you gain that next step in speed. make sure you get at the very least 48% fhr and 65% fcr.
Smithenator
09-08-2007, 20:01
Ive been thinking of making a ghost lately, but to make it more of a drawn out project Id like to make it a physical variant. Anyway, my questions are:
1. For casters, should my fury be e-bugged as well as my chaos? Also, know anyone with one of these lying around for trade? :P
2. For my fools claw, what is the minimum damage to make this build work?
Ive been thinking of making a ghost lately, but to make it more of a drawn out project Id like to make it a physical variant. Anyway, my questions are:
1. For casters, should my fury be e-bugged as well as my chaos? Also, know anyone with one of these lying around for trade? :P
2. For my fools claw, what is the minimum damage to make this build work?
1. you should get a ebug version of anything you wear, since there are really no drawbacks. the only thing you need to worry about is the claw type. over here on west, only 0 WSM ebugs exist, so i had to make sure my chaos was the ebugged claw, so that i could WSM bug and keep fury as my primary. if you can find an e-bugged fury thats relatively fast, definitely use it. i use my ebugged fury suwayyah whenever i use bos, but am not able to when i use fade because i won't hit the trap laying BP.
2. fools claw doesn't really need high damage. you'll almost never find one that will deal good physical damage; its the 2x um's in it that are the claw's damage source (besides venom). if you're going a physical setup, you'll be swapping the fury out for the fools only vs paladins. you should use your fury as much as you can.
A question:
Is there any way to make this build able to run PvM? I've been running around doing chaos but I can't seem to kill things quickly at all, and my MB only helps to convert monsters, which I dont really need.
Quick question TienJe, You said to pump fade until 50% DR with eq? How many points into fade do you have? That would mean we need lvl 42 fade or am I missing something?o.o(8% from enigma is all I have)
Quick question TienJe, You said to pump fade until 50% DR with eq? How many points into fade do you have? That would mean we need lvl 42 fade or am I missing something?o.o(8% from enigma is all I have)
you're correct with that one. you will have enough points to do that if you use 9 shadow gcs.
A question:
Is there any way to make this build able to run PvM? I've been running around doing chaos but I can't seem to kill things quickly at all, and my MB only helps to convert monsters, which I dont really need.
probably not. any changes you made would basically take the "ghost" right out of it.
With my current setup im short 1 shadow gc, I have a lvl 21 fade, that would mean a LOT of points into fade ~_~ pretty much max. Onanother note I noticed claw block inthe high 50's doesnt go up 1% per level, is this correct? should I keep pumping it?
Summerfun
11-08-2007, 15:20
So i have 37 *32020 on a mule and 9 shadow skillers with 42+ life from my hybrid. Should i go physical or pure venom? Im on europe server, so E-bugged claws dossent exist.
Venom i guess?
With my current setup im short 1 shadow gc, I have a lvl 21 fade, that would mean a LOT of points into fade ~_~ pretty much max. Onanother note I noticed claw block inthe high 50's doesnt go up 1% per level, is this correct? should I keep pumping it?
well, with the normal venom build, you should have lvl 24 fade with just 1 point, if you cast fade with your bo switch (an extra +2 skills). you will definitely need to pump points into fade, but thats part of the build, and you'll have enough skills to do so.
you are right about the claw block. the skill exhibits diminishing returns.
So i have 37 *32020 on a mule and 9 shadow skillers with 42+ life from my hybrid. Should i go physical or pure venom? Im on europe server, so E-bugged claws dossent exist.
Venom i guess?
totally up to you. the change in damage isn't anywhere near as much as the nomenclature suggests. but if you do go physical, i'd suggest using a 0 WSM chaos and WSM bugging.
Perfect Griffon's Eye & 5/5 light facets imo
Smithenator
17-08-2007, 00:24
What kind of damage should be expected on a venom orientated ghost?
HappyAssassin
17-08-2007, 00:55
3.3k/3.9k Fury/Chaos displayed damage is good. That's with Feral/Runic Claws, level 49 venom and 6 3/xx/20s.
ok now i have some questions..
u said wsm - ias on wep is how u find out how fast ur weapons r.. n u need -13 to hit 4 from ww if that is so doesnt that mean i could use the slowest claw at 20wsm for a chaos and it would come out 2 -15 and id have a 4frame ww??
also ur saying to put 2 um runes n a fool's modded claw of quickness.. how do u put 2 um runes n that claw?? if u do the socket quest does it give u 2 socs n magical itams or something??
HappyAssassin
19-08-2007, 00:30
Yes pretty much any claw will hit max speed WW with Chaos socketed in it.
The socket quest give 1 socket 50% of the time and 2 sockets the other 50% of the time in a magical item.
CosmicallyDrifting
21-08-2007, 05:03
VERY nice guide!
Ive been engulfed by your videos, and have decided to make an asn just like yours! I got rid of my charger, my cold sorc, and 1/4th of my bowazon.
I have the resources available at my fingertips, i just need your guidence.
I know what i will use. There are just some things i'm confused on:
Helm- For now, .08 valk It's the only thing i have. It belonged to my next-door neighboor who quit, so i don't know how logn its been in circulation as an end item, therefor i temp-perm it each game. Soon ill get my hands on a nice circlet, hopefully w/ 20% fcr.
Ammy- Storm hide. It's also from my friend who quit. (he gave me some of his stuff. The rest he sold on ebay. Its a VERY good ammy, but im almost sure its duped :( My friend swares its legit, but i temp-perm it just to be sure.
It's stats are: 2skills/20 str/15 dex/ 59life/30 mana/ 20 all res. (see why i perm it after each game ? ^^)
Armor- Archon plate enigma (i can use w/o any points into str!!!!!)
Belt- Arach
Ring 1- Ravenfrost
Ring 2- A nice rare (probably unperm :~ Not for sure tho.. ive left atleast 20 games w/ it and it is still on my mule)
Stats: 10fcr/15 str/4 lifeleech/4 dex/ 10 all resists
Boots- Ironically, the same ones mentioned in this guide :D_
Gloves- Trangs
Cta/spirit monarch on switch. 20/19 asn torch. 18/19/8 anni.
9x life shadow gcs (working on them.. i hope i can find some atleast 35+)
Maybe some res charms if i can get my hands on them.
Claws- Help. Halp. Heolp. I kinda get the speeds, i just need to know, with this gear, what should my claw choices be? I want to hit the 4frame breakpoint, so i was thinking a Fury and chaos claw in the 2 topmost damaging claws. ( Don't know what those are. I think they are a type of elite Katar. Hopefully you can help)
I saw the ias on Choas/Fury, they are high enough to get the bp i think, considering I dont know the base speeds of the claws i want... let alone the claws themselves...
I could be compeltely wrong. I dont know :\
VERY nice guide!
Ive been engulfed by your videos, and have decided to make an asn just like yours! I got rid of my charger, my cold sorc, and 1/4th of my bowazon.
I have the resources available at my fingertips, i just need your guidence.
I know what i will use. There are just some things i'm confused on:
Helm- For now, .08 valk It's the only thing i have. It belonged to my next-door neighboor who quit, so i don't know how logn its been in circulation as an end item, therefor i temp-perm it each game. Soon ill get my hands on a nice circlet, hopefully w/ 20% fcr.
Ammy- Storm hide. It's also from my friend who quit. (he gave me some of his stuff. The rest he sold on ebay. Its a VERY good ammy, but im almost sure its duped :( My friend swares its legit, but i temp-perm it just to be sure.
It's stats are: 2skills/20 str/15 dex/ 59life/30 mana/ 20 all res. (see why i perm it after each game ? ^^)
Armor- Archon plate enigma (i can use w/o any points into str!!!!!)
Belt- Arach
Ring 1- Ravenfrost
Ring 2- A nice rare (probably unperm :~ Not for sure tho.. ive left atleast 20 games w/ it and it is still on my mule)
Stats: 10fcr/15 str/4 lifeleech/4 dex/ 10 all resists
Boots- Ironically, the same ones mentioned in this guide :D_
Gloves- Trangs
Cta/spirit monarch on switch. 20/19 asn torch. 18/19/8 anni.
9x life shadow gcs (working on them.. i hope i can find some atleast 35+)
Maybe some res charms if i can get my hands on them.
Claws- Help. Halp. Heolp. I kinda get the speeds, i just need to know, with this gear, what should my claw choices be? I want to hit the 4frame breakpoint, so i was thinking a Fury and chaos claw in the 2 topmost damaging claws. ( Don't know what those are. I think they are a type of elite Katar. Hopefully you can help)
I saw the ias on Choas/Fury, they are high enough to get the bp i think, considering I dont know the base speeds of the claws i want... let alone the claws themselves...
I could be compeltely wrong. I dont know :\
.08 valk works just fine. since valk has 10% extra fcr, you can use 2 ravenfrosts, which will let you use fury instead of a fools (normal 9 shadow gc sins can only use 1 raven frost and suffer greatly from lack of AR).
with claws, the thing you need to worry about is hitting the trap placing BP. any chaos/fury will automatically hit the 4 frame ww bp. because you have a .08 valk with the 30% ias, you have a much wider selection of claws.
the normal claw selection for 9 shadow gc sins is 2 GT's, which averages to -30 WSM and requires 42% IAS for 9 frame trap laying. since you have more IAS from the .08 valk, you can use slower (and stronger) claws.
if you are going to use fury/chaos, if you put your fury as primary (as you should), you can use up to -20 average WSM. that means you can use 2 feral claws, a GT fury + wrist sword chaos, (etc). those 2 combos should be a good place to start.
check out arreat summit and take a look at the claws, and then use the IAS calculator @ http://diablo2.ingame.de/tips/calcs/weaponspeed.php?lang=english if you want to check for the BP's for each of your claw combinations. just make sure you choose "trap placing" for the skill at the bottom.
CosmicallyDrifting
21-08-2007, 07:03
Thanks so much! Just one more thing.
I might have a possible circlet (seriously... what are the chances of a trader on the exact day i'm in need of an asn circlet :D )
And...ummm... you might've said this in your guide, but which side is your primary weapon.. is it the right side of the character screen?
And what do you reccomend as the primary. Chaos or Fury?
thx again.
Edit:Since the circlet is probably going to happen (YAY), I wont have any ias from my helm, so i dont know what claws I should use. Then again... the circlet im getting is almost the EXACT same as my .08 valk , just w/o the 2 shadow skills. Are the 2 skills really worth it?
Anyways, i was thinking of a War Fist w/ a Suwayyah ... but now im unsure because i lost the 30 ias from my helm (if i decide to use circlet)
Maybe 2x feral claws? Or a runic and Scissors suwayyah?
I'm confuzzled.
Thanks so much! Just one more thing.
I might have a possible circlet (seriously... what are the chances of a trader on the exact day i'm in need of an asn circlet :D )
And...ummm... you might've said this in your guide, but which side is your primary weapon.. is it the right side of the character screen?
thx again.
the claw thats right above the gloves is the primary one
CosmicallyDrifting
21-08-2007, 07:45
Ok... i see now. The 10fpa trap speed has a wide range. With 30 ias from my helm, i can reach 9fpa trap speed w/ a Runic Talon and Wrist sword. Also, w/ 30 ias from my helm, i can maximize my damage by using a war fist and a Runic talon, but only get 10fpa.
If I go for my circlet, i can only reach a 10fpa trap laying speed, even with 2 of the fastest weapon (runic talon or Greater talon), i still can only get 10fpa.
So it all boils down to this question:
9fpa trap laying speed, or +2 skills from a circlet?
Oo
Ok... i see now. The 10fpa trap speed has a wide range. With 30 ias from my helm, i can reach 9fpa trap speed w/ a Runic Talon and Wrist sword. Also, w/ 30 ias from my helm, i can maximize my damage by using a war fist and a Runic talon, but only get 10fpa.
If I go for my circlet, i can only reach a 10fpa trap laying speed, even with 2 of the fastest weapon (runic talon or Greater talon), i still can only get 10fpa.
So it all boils down to this question:
9fpa trap laying speed, or +2 skills from a circlet?
Oo
you should probably stay away from runic talons (unless you get a lot of +dex), as you don't really benefit from the extra physical damage and will suffer from the stat reqs. usually GT's work better for 9 shadow gc builds like yours.
people that use ghosts will always tell you to never settle for anything less than 9 frame traps. circlet builds use a 15res/15ias jewel in the circlet to give them 9 frame traps.
my answer would be to get both +2 and 9 frame traps.
4102 life/ 638 mana with non-buffed BO (lvl 14)
7130 WW AR
3478-4610/2379-3214 WW Damage (Chaos/Fury)
My life is only at around 3.6k (3.7k after I hit 90), is it because I'm using all 30 lifers instead of 40 lifers? I also see that your circlet is Jah'd and that would increase it. Well, I was just wondering cause I have lower life by around 0.3-0.5k from all of the "good" wwsin stats I've seen on the boards.
7k AR comes from the AR/Life SCs right?
And the 4.6k Chaos damage is because it's ebugged?
4102 life/ 638 mana with non-buffed BO (lvl 14)
7130 WW AR
3478-4610/2379-3214 WW Damage (Chaos/Fury)
My life is only at around 3.6k (3.7k after I hit 90), is it because I'm using all 30 lifers instead of 40 lifers? I also see that your circlet is Jah'd and that would increase it. Well, I was just wondering cause I have lower life by around 0.3-0.5k from all of the "good" wwsin stats I've seen on the boards.
7k AR comes from the AR/Life SCs right?
And the 4.6k Chaos damage is because it's ebugged?
you should be able to break 4k life with 30 lifer shadows. are you using GT's? sdancers?
HappyAssassin
21-08-2007, 19:54
I use Runics and Sdancers and I have more life than Dave :P
you should be able to break 4k life with 30 lifer shadows. are you using GT's? sdancers?
My gear is:
Fury Runic +2Venom/+2DF
Fool's Runic +1Venom/+1MB/KB/40IAS/-30req/Um'd
Chaos GT +2Venom/2MB/1DF
Enigma MP
2sin/20FCR/20STR/81Mana/15IAS/15Res
26Res Maras
20Dex Raven
10FCR/19STR/37mana/18coldres Ring
Trang Gloves
2/22 Dancers
GCs: 35/33/31/31/30/27/24/FHR/FHR
SCs: 7x 16-20's, 1x 19/10fr, 1x 16/5cr, 1x 16/25ar
I've got a total of 4 points in strength and 18 in dex, which, if I recall correctly, is less than how much Ollie's ghost had invested.
I think one reason I might have lower life is because Smithenator told me not to build in Maras due because he thought I was going to make a WW/Trapper :undecided: I'm really not into using TGods much either, so a 15FCR amulet doesn't help much, and your Cat's Eye + Widowmaker thing, I just use a Hel'd one.
Thats about...50 or so life right there but I dunno about the rest. All my lifers are actually 25-35 not 30+ but whatever.
I also happen to have under max resists T.T
I'm also building my Nec and it'll probably take the rest of my funds so I dunno if I'll be able to change anything anyways but we'll see :tongue:
yea, depending on which set-up you choose, you're life will change quite a bit, though you should always be able to get above 4k. my physical build suffers in the life department because of that highlords, but i think its worth it :azn:.
yea, depending on which set-up you choose, you're life will change quite a bit, though you should always be able to get above 4k. my physical build suffers in the life department because of that highlords, but i think its worth it :azn:.
I think 3.6k life is doing decently well for me, just wondering why everyone had like 500 more life than me :tongue:
Summerfun
22-08-2007, 02:02
Okay, so i have played with my Trap/ww hybrid for a while and i think its time to play a Ghost now. When i duell with my Hybrid i play more like a trapper who only use WW as a defence, and i know thats wrong!!
So if i playwith a ghost i think ill have to be more offensive as i dont have my 7k traps.
Now when building my Ghost can i just use my Hybrids items?
It looks like this. From the top.
2assa/20fcr socket 2*15/15
2assa 17fcr xx mana 17 all res
Fools GToQ socket 2 UM with +2 LS +1MB +1DF
Enigma
Chaos GT with +3ls +3df +1mb
Trang-Ouls gloves
Raven frost
Dungo
Fcr ring with 18 str 1xx AR 86 mana
Shadow dancers
9 Shadow skiller with 4x life Torch Anni
10 SC either, 32020 or 20/5 depending on the duel.
I cant get Ebugged claws as there is only 2 on europe and he aint trading.
Do you agree that i would be wise to play a Ghost to learn how to be more offensive?
What gear should i change if anny?
I could get pretty much any thing except for crazy rare items like amu, circlet and claw.
Thanks
Best regards
Summerfun
Okay, so i have played with my Trap/ww hybrid for a while and i think its time to play a Ghost now. When i duell with my Hybrid i play more like a trapper who only use WW as a defence, and i know thats wrong!!
So if i playwith a ghost i think ill have to be more offensive as i dont have my 7k traps.
Now when building my Ghost can i just use my Hybrids items?
It looks like this. From the top.
2assa/20fcr socket 2*15/15
2assa 17fcr xx mana 17 all res
Fools GToQ socket 2 UM with +2 LS +1MB +1DF
Enigma
Chaos GT with +3ls +3df +1mb
Trang-Ouls gloves
Raven frost
Dungo
Fcr ring with 18 str 1xx AR 86 mana
Shadow dancers
9 Shadow skiller with 4x life Torch Anni
10 SC either, 32020 or 20/5 depending on the duel.
I cant get Ebugged claws as there is only 2 on europe and he aint trading.
Do you agree that i would be wise to play a Ghost to learn how to be more offensive?
What gear should i change if anny?
I could get pretty much any thing except for crazy rare items like amu, circlet and claw.
Thanks
Best regards
Summerfun
i guess i'll address your main objective first, since the equipment follows from that.
to be honest, ww/ls hybrids are not good offensive chars. the way you are playing it is basically how it is designed to be played (i'm assuming you ww offensively at least sometimes). LS doesn't have good offensive stunning ability when you aren't spamming MB, so even if you learn to be offensive with a ghost, it won't transfer well to a ls/ww hybrid.
if you do want to be more offensive, i'd stick with something that uses wof, either a ghost or a ww/wof hybrid. but if you're doing all this so that you can evolve your ww/ls play, i don't think you'll get to where you want to be.
Summerfun
22-08-2007, 03:23
You might be right about a Hybrid not beeing the best offensive char, my problem is that i dont reall like beeing defensive, i like chasing the opponent and beeing offensive.
So i think a ghost is more me. Lets say i still want to make a Ghost, what gear should i change, and for what?
I really want this char to work.
You might be right about a Hybrid not beeing the best offensive char, my problem is that i dont reall like beeing defensive, i like chasing the opponent and beeing offensive.
So i think a ghost is more me. Lets say i still want to make a Ghost, what gear should i change, and for what?
I really want this char to work.
thats what i was hoping :grin:
if you want to try and reuse most of that gear, this is what i would do:
you only need 42% ias if you use 2 GT's, so you need at most 1 ias jewel in your helm. the second slot will be much better used if its filled with an jah or something of the sort.
switch your dungos to a spider, as you'll have enough points into fade for max dr without it, which means you can switch your fcr rings to a second raven frost for more AR/dex, which will let you use a fury vs most casters. you'll still want to keep your fools for when you duel paladins (and possibly barbs, depending on your setup). you can still use a dungos if you want, if you find yourself wanting to pump dclaw/dtalon, since you'll need 15 less points into fade. if you use dtalon, use sdancers, otherwise, use some rare frw/fhr/stat/res boot instead.
other than that, you should be fine. as long as you hit the right bp's, basically any set up will work. if you don't mind trading things, then the setup listed in the guide for 9 shadow gcs is the one i would go for.
good luck with it.
I dont see your problem, I find that a hybrid can indeed play very offensively.
Against casters you dont have to be more defensive than a ghost at all as you will be doing exactly the same, only your ww dmg will be a bit lower.
If you trap them correctly and do your whirls right theres no prob at all.
I play as offensive as I can against every char that I meet, also against barbs, smiters, hammerdins as long as it is not stupid.
Means if they tele away I wont wait in my trap cube but follow them and put pressure, just dont forget to build up your trapfield constantly.
I disagree to tjenje, who said that a WW/LS sin could not use wof againt casters? WoFs and a hybrid's whirlwind will screw up casters. ~3k ww dmg each hand combined with wofs is enough to tankout pretty much any caster, it only depends on your whirling technique. (I have lvl46 venom on default equip. lvl1 CM base)
Or why do you say that a hybrid ww/ls assassin is not offensive?
In my opinion a well-built ww/ls assassin can play almost exactly the same way against casters as ghosts and have traps against paladins and barbarians.
PS: @ summerfun: as I noticed you've made major equip improvements. Can I have my old 2ls 2df chaos gt back then? I lend it to you some time ago ^_^
I might want to give it to some other friend that's not as wealthy as I am to back him up a bit.
Summerfun
22-08-2007, 14:46
I dont see your problem, I find that a hybrid can indeed play very offensively.
Against casters you dont have to be more defensive than a ghost at all as you will be doing exactly the same, only your ww dmg will be a bit lower.
If you trap them correctly and do your whirls right theres no prob at all.
I play as offensive as I can against every char that I meet, also against barbs, smiters, hammerdins as long as it is not stupid.
Means if they tele away I wont wait in my trap cube but follow them and put pressure, just dont forget to build up your trapfield constantly.
I disagree to tjenje, who said that a WW/LS sin could not use wof againt casters? WoFs and a hybrid's whirlwind will screw up casters. ~3k ww dmg each hand combined with wofs is enough to tankout pretty much any caster, it only depends on your whirling technique. (I have lvl46 venom on default equip. lvl1 CM base)
Or why do you say that a hybrid ww/ls assassin is not offensive?
In my opinion a well-built ww/ls assassin can play almost exactly the same way against casters as ghosts and have traps against paladins and barbarians.
PS: @ summerfun: as I noticed you've made major equip improvements. Can I have my old 2ls 2df chaos gt back then? I lend it to you some time ago ^_^
I might want to give it to some other friend that's not as wealthy as I am to back him up a bit.
I know you play VERY offensive, i got a taste of that with my bow ama and windy :azn:
I just dont have the skills witha sin that you do. I havent really played assassins since my fire trapper and tigerstriker back in 1.09.
I was just hoping that playing a Ghost could force me to be more aggresive.
And yes, sure you can have your claw back, do you allso want the 2/20 amu?
i have gotten a better one there to.
Just whisper me
oh, ok will do later.
We can do some sin v sin later. We got a quite nice assassin community atm consisting of ... hmm ... me, Rabbi, SicHalo and a friend of me and SicHalo that's not regged here.
All decent hybrid assassins. If you wanna do some duels I'm always in.
PS: we dont do defensive lame sin v sin duels, dont be afraid ^_^ straight in your face
Summerfun
22-08-2007, 16:26
I would love to try duel you some time, but i have seen you assassin and how you play it, im pretty sure i would loose every time.
But lets try :D
I dont see your problem, I find that a hybrid can indeed play very offensively.
Against casters you dont have to be more defensive than a ghost at all as you will be doing exactly the same, only your ww dmg will be a bit lower.
If you trap them correctly and do your whirls right theres no prob at all.
I play as offensive as I can against every char that I meet, also against barbs, smiters, hammerdins as long as it is not stupid.
Means if they tele away I wont wait in my trap cube but follow them and put pressure, just dont forget to build up your trapfield constantly.
I disagree to tjenje, who said that a WW/LS sin could not use wof againt casters? WoFs and a hybrid's whirlwind will screw up casters. ~3k ww dmg each hand combined with wofs is enough to tankout pretty much any caster, it only depends on your whirling technique. (I have lvl46 venom on default equip. lvl1 CM base)
Or why do you say that a hybrid ww/ls assassin is not offensive?
In my opinion a well-built ww/ls assassin can play almost exactly the same way against casters as ghosts and have traps against paladins and barbarians.
PS: @ summerfun: as I noticed you've made major equip improvements. Can I have my old 2ls 2df chaos gt back then? I lend it to you some time ago ^_^
I might want to give it to some other friend that's not as wealthy as I am to back him up a bit.
its the nature of the lower ww damage that makes the hybrid less offensive than a ghost. especially in team duel situations, a ghost is able to jump into the fray more, as they will have larger AR and damage. even in 1v1 situations, although in theory your play style will be the same, there will be certainly be a difference. i've dueled ww/ls hybrids over here with casters, and i have felt the ww damage difference, and usually it gives me the opportunity to go on the offensive with my block necro, as they can't slay me with ww in just one "session".
i understand what you're saying, but i'm still going to argue that in theory, having a meatier character and a stronger damage will allow you go be more offensive, even if you have the same strategy/style in mind. when those times come when you are forced to break out of your gameplan, like when the caster catches you off guard without traps, what you decide to do at that moment will most likely depend on which build you're using.
@summerfun: if you're using the ghost to try and be more offensive with your hybrid, i'd say just to unbind your LS hotkey for a little while, and stick purely with wof. like moritz was saying, a hybrid using only wof will be the same as a ghost in theory, and while i don't agree that it will be just as offensive, i think it will get you where you want to go.
Summerfun
22-08-2007, 21:48
@summerfun: if you're using the ghost to try and be more offensive with your hybrid, i'd say just to unbind your LS hotkey for a little while, and stick purely with wof. like moritz was saying, a hybrid using only wof will be the same as a ghost in theory, and while i don't agree that it will be just as offensive, i think it will get you where you want to go.
I thought about doing that, but i allso really wanna try playing a Ghost as i have never tryed it.
I guess ill just make a Ghost and see if i like it.
Thanks for all the advice.
well we were not talking about tvts. I find that hybrid assassin builds suck in tvt.
ghost is not bad for 2v2, but for 4v4 I wouldnt take it neither.
sure ww dmg is less and tankability is lower. casters will still play def because if they decide not to be def a hybrid will use ww AND ls and they are even more screwed.
as for offensive actions I'm convinced that it all comes down to technique. I have seen your videos and your whirls are really good, so you know what i am talking about. the trick at triwhirling, as we all know, is to stay in range and not get hit by projectiles.
so if you dont make a big mistake at triwhirling against casters, whirling around them once more or less will usually be not too much of a diffrence.
sorcs just get owned by lvl 4x venom already, you dont even need any traps.
windys have too bad fhr caps.
necros have hard time hitting a wwsin with bos when shes triwhirling as spirits are too slow and spears rarely hit as youre constantly moving while performing ww.
I say a hybrid is by no means a defensive character. my principle is usually 'play offensive or die' because I cannot enjoy playing def myself at all.
of course I dont telestomp everything and everyone, but I will not camp and go as off as I can without being foolish.
Summerfun just hasnt practised enough. I'm totally fine with ghosts and he should try one as they are really fun. but a hybrid is not necessarily more defensive than a ghost.
well we were not talking about tvts. I find that hybrid assassin builds suck in tvt.
ghost is not bad for 2v2, but for 4v4 I wouldnt take it neither.
sure ww dmg is less and tankability is lower. casters will still play def because if they decide not to be def a hybrid will use ww AND ls and they are even more screwed.
as for offensive actions I'm convinced that it all comes down to technique. I have seen your videos and your whirls are really good, so you know what i am talking about. the trick at triwhirling, as we all know, is to stay in range and not get hit by projectiles.
so if you dont make a big mistake at triwhirling against casters, whirling around them once more or less will usually be not too much of a diffrence.
sorcs just get owned by lvl 4x venom already, you dont even need any traps.
windys have too bad fhr caps.
necros have hard time hitting a wwsin with bos when shes triwhirling as spirits are too slow and spears rarely hit as youre constantly moving while performing ww.
I say a hybrid is by no means a defensive character. my principle is usually 'play offensive or die' because I cannot enjoy playing def myself at all.
of course I dont telestomp everything and everyone, but I will not camp and go as off as I can without being foolish.
Summerfun just hasnt practised enough. I'm totally fine with ghosts and he should try one as they are really fun. but a hybrid is not necessarily more defensive than a ghost.
i have only come across defensive ww/ls here on west, but i will yield to you that hybrids can indeed be played offensively, though i still don't believe that it is a strong offensive character (compared to other sin builds). when you play offensively, you are basically neglecting half of your build, which doesn't really make sense to me; a wof/ww hybrid makes much more sense in my mind.
regarding hybrids vs ghosts, you're right in that in certain situations, hybrids can be just as offensive as a ghost, and i agree with all those situations/statements that you posted up there, though i find them to be a little bit too "perfect". there will be times where the duels won't follow those examples; i find it pretty hard to believe that you can consistently whirl a necro in such a way that bs will never hit you. its possible to do that when there aren't any bs following you pre-whirl, but when you have a train coming in at an angle, following you from when you were casting wof/mb, its pretty hard to dodge those with whirl while maintaining your damage output.
when i jump in onto a necro and decide to whirl, there is a moment when i look at the screen and see how many bs are around me, to see if its worth jumping in at that time, since i know that i won't be able to dodge all of them over the course of the whirl sequence. i just find it hard to believe that for a specific individual, a hybrid will have the same "jumping threshold" as a ghost, knowing full-well the differences between the two builds.
maybe if its just me being partial to wof, but i just see ww/ls sins like the wof/ww hybrid sin's ugly cousin :azn:.
HappyAssassin
23-08-2007, 06:14
You clearly never dueled me on my WW/Trapper dave :D. One of my huge disappointments upon coming to NL was to find that every hybrid I faced played the "lay a trap field and WW around in it" game plan, which just sucks(/props with the exception of Supra who was /endprops suicidally offensive against my barb). I do think that WW/LS can be really good in its own way, but it CANNOT be as offensive as the Ghost, simply because the ghost is capable of winning a bat**** nuts charge against a lot of chars whereas the WW/LS needs to bring its trap field with it to keep the damage potential there. WW/LS can indeed play a constant pressure game, but it's more slow and deliberate than the ghost, who often only needs 1 or 2 trap casts and mbs or even none at all to close with the enemy.
That said, without absorb, the WW/LS has the advantage of a higher total damage potential than the ghost (assuming they set it up right). IMO WW/LS is not WW/Wake's ugly cousin, the main reason Wake seems more effective is that everyone knows that a tgods ruins WW/LS traps, whereas fewer people carry fire stack/sorb. WW/LS does many of the things WW/Wake does just as well, and some better. GM, I'd rather have a WW/LS against a barb for example.
You clearly never dueled me on my WW/Trapper dave :D. One of my huge disappointments upon coming to NL was to find that every hybrid I faced played the "lay a trap field and WW around in it" game plan, which just sucks(/props with the exception of Supra who was /endprops suicidally offensive against my barb). I do think that WW/LS can be really good in its own way, but it CANNOT be as offensive as the Ghost, simply because the ghost is capable of winning a bat**** nuts charge against a lot of chars whereas the WW/LS needs to bring its trap field with it to keep the damage potential there. WW/LS can indeed play a constant pressure game, but it's more slow and deliberate than the ghost, who often only needs 1 or 2 trap casts and mbs or even none at all to close with the enemy.
yea that was what i was arguing. i was saying LS doesn't lend itself well to being an offensive stunner, to which moritz replied that he uses wof.
That said, without absorb, the WW/LS has the advantage of a higher total damage potential than the ghost (assuming they set it up right). IMO WW/LS is not WW/Wake's ugly cousin, the main reason Wake seems more effective is that everyone knows that a tgods ruins WW/LS traps, whereas fewer people carry fire stack/sorb. WW/LS does many of the things WW/Wake does just as well, and some better. GM, I'd rather have a WW/LS against a barb for example.
the reason i choose WoF over LS is because it lends itself to offensive play styles better, while not really losing its effectiveness as something to force paladins to move, and also because it requires less skill points. it just seems a much better trap to use in a hybrid.
p.s. read the earlier posts ollie. you're a little bit off this time. :azn:
I use both. WoF and LS, in almost every duel. Stomping paladins get screwed if you drop one under your feet (in this case its a defensive measure), and sorcs and necs (etc...) get caught by wof just like against ghosts.
One point where a gotta say that a hybrid will be defensive is when she is low on life.
Lets say I duel a necro and am left with 300 life so 1 BS/spear kills me. He has got more than half life left. I'll try to trap with LS, chip away his life and eventually try to catch him in a full stunlock if he decides to go offensive to finish me off.
So, a hybrid probably tends to become defensive or at least more defensive as usual when she is on low HP. The reason for this is imho pretty clear. Hybrids got traps which can be used as a defensive damage dealer, ghosts dont.
As long as you are not really low on life, I just personally say that ghost and hybrid can be equally offensive.
It may be true that many hybrid players play more defensive than most ghost players. They heavily rely on their traps (just like Summerfun told us) because trapping is easier than whirling (at least its safer).
I played (in chronological order) c/c trapsin, kicksin, wwsin, ww/ls/kick sin, and got to know all the basics with kicks and whirlwind before I started to play a hybrid.
If I hadnt played kicksins and wwsins before I would not play the same way as I do now. People who played trappers before, or no assassin at all will play defensive and very trap based.
I love playing offensive and I love wwing and kicking. Really often I say to my friends: ''Hey, lets make some fun duels. I need to practise my offensive play with whirls and building up stunlocks against casters and I wont use LS. I'll play like ghost.''
So I duel that necro with wof only. I make mistakes, I learn from them. I die because I whirl too long or namelock too slowly. You get a feeling how to teleport while chasing and where and when to place traps.
The next day I duel the same person with traps only, without ww at all. I try catching him in a stunlock and kill with LS. Or I use kicks but no ww.
Just for fun.
Or dueling hammerdins with wof only, incase I get fully sorbed. [etc]
Please do not see this as bragging, really please dont. But I have put very much effort in practising different facets of my assassin. Triwhirling, teleporting, trapping, namelocking. Over and over and over.
But after all, I would like to say that I have become an offensive kind of player that tries to put pressure whereever it seems not too foolish, and I'm am usually successful. And many other hybrid assassins are not offensive because they just go to pub duels and try to win.
I duel to improve and have fun, not to win. Sometimes I jump in to triwhirl and die, get to know where it's possible and senseful and where it's not.
I'm sure you, Dave, and you, Ollie, have done the same as I do (practise wise) and I respect your work (great guides) and your opinion.
But a hybrid is not forced to play defensive against any caster.
I dont neglect my build. I use LS and WoF in an offensive way. Sometimes, against certain individuals, I even like LS even more as offensive trap vs casters because it shoots faster after placing. It's all about catching them usually, interupting them from teleing with that one LS hit to get in. Stunlock is not THAT important against sorcs and necros. You just outtank them 95% of the cases.
Basically MY idea behind hybridizing a wwsin with traps is not because I find traps a necessary backup against casters (I mean damaging traps). It's more like I sacrifice some ww damage to get more defensive power against paladins and barbarians.
So basically you agree with lower ww dmg because you can outbalance this loss with technique really well. OW dmg on hybrid and ghost is the same, venom damage is (depending on build) pretty much the same (I got lvl46 venom field-casted on my hybrid), physical damage is clearly a good bunch less.
Physical damage comes in handy where you hit often (TienJe explains it in his guide pretty well. Venom in hell = 0.8 sec, ww hits every 0.16 sec. So you often just reset your poison timer as it doesnt stack.), i.e. when you triwhirl, that's most likely against casters, but those can be killed with low physical damage as well. Almost all sorcs that I know play 95% ES, making physical dmg not so viable, and many necros play high DR and got bonearmor. IMHO venom plays the major role in those duels.
Against paladins, you usually do not triwhirl for obvious reasons. In those duels I'd say that the wws are almost equal (dmg-wise), at least no significant difference, out of my experience.
This should be no comparison to point out which build is better. I find ghost and hybrid equally good, they are just very similar but still totally different.
But both got high offensive power, even if ghost might be able to go a tad more offensive.
Hybrid is in no way defensive, it all depends on the player that uses it.
This should be no comparison to point out which build is better. I find ghost and hybrid equally good, they are just very similar but still totally different.
But both got high offensive power, even if ghost might be able to go a tad more offensive.
Hybrid is in no way defensive, it all depends on the player that uses it.
there was really no comparison going on between the ghost/hybrid. i was merely commenting on hybrids being just as offensive as ghosts, after you pointed out to me that you play with wof when trying to be offensive. from your last response, it seems we're all in agreement, so i'll leave it at that. :prop:
have you ever tried a wof/ww hybrid with 1 in LS instead of your current build? i still feel like it would be better for the way you play.
No, but I had other WoF hybrids and I find wof weak against paladins and barbs.
might try it for fun someday :P
my comment was directed to my own article / post, because after reading it again I thought some ppl might take it as reasoning why hybrid is > ghost, but it wasnt meant that way. ^_^ (and hybrid is not > ghost. like I said. cannot compare those builds really.)
No, but I had other WoF hybrids and I find wof weak against paladins and barbs.
might try it for fun someday :P
my comment was directed to my own article / post, because after reading it again I thought some ppl might take it as reasoning why hybrid is > ghost, but it wasnt meant that way. ^_^ (and hybrid is not > ghost. like I said. cannot compare those builds really.)
an example of why dii trumps the rest of the d2 forums scattered around the intarnets. usually a thread like this would have caused both parties to explode and the thread to be closed by now. :cry:
hum well yes, I like that as well. I like flaming too, but there are other forums where to do that ^________^
btw you know Trae? he talked bad about you and I want to know who he actually is.
hum well yes, I like that as well. I like flaming too, but there are other forums where to do that ^________^
btw you know Trae? he talked bad about you and I want to know who he actually is.
haha. yea he was arguing with me about my build on another forums. we eventually had to end the argument with a duel. he made valid points, it was just one of those arguments where it was impossible to settle it with just posts. he was saying i could never kill pn necro in hell with my amount of resistances, and of course i begged to differ, so we ended up having to duel. it seemed that he liked his "tankish" builds because his ping was bad where he lived, and couldn't maneuver the same way the rest of us could. i haven't heard from him since though.
i wonder what he said. :azn: its sort of funny to hear you say he talked badly about me, because throughout the debate on those forums, my friends would chime in, and he would always qualify his statements with something like "i mean no disrespect" or something of the sort.
darkelrond
27-08-2007, 05:01
hey tienje if u didint get pm should i make a ww/wof or ghost build which do u think is more efective he has 1 in claw mastery and i maxed and we have the samd ww damage we both use gts and have almost the same gear... lol and on top he has good wof damage that kills me everytime with his ww wut should i do lol cause he kills casters alot faster than me and does better against like hammerdins or smiters than me
hey tienje if u didint get pm should i make a ww/wof or ghost build which do u think is more efective he has 1 in claw mastery and i maxed and we have the samd ww damage we both use gts and have almost the same gear... lol and on top he has good wof damage that kills me everytime with his ww wut should i do lol cause he kills casters alot faster than me and does better against like hammerdins or smiters than me
your inbox is full.
you should be killing casters faster than he is, since ghosts are better in that department. it just looks to me like you need to practice a bit more.
darkelrond
27-08-2007, 17:27
i c thnx for info
hey tienje if u didint get pm should i make a ww/wof or ghost build which do u think is more efective he has 1 in claw mastery and i maxed and we have the samd ww damage we both use gts and have almost the same gear... lol and on top he has good wof damage that kills me everytime with his ww wut should i do lol cause he kills casters alot faster than me and does better against like hammerdins or smiters than me
dont flatter me :D
i will say that ww/wof hybrids tend to do much better in duels against hammerdins and smiters due to the fact that we have the option to sit back and let traps slowly do the work, or use ww to damage opponents quickly, but leaves your sin more vulnerable to attack.
the reason you sin and mine probably achieve similar ww damage is the fact that i have that 1 skill point higher in venom than your build, and my chaos is close to a perfect roll.
we should just keep working on refining your build and maybe i'll show you some strategies i use against different opponents in game.
personally i think ww/wof sins are a little bit more user friendly than ghosts are, but thats just the style i play. i like having both an offensive and defensive option if i need it.
i can also show you the way i intend to remake my ww/wof hybrid so that she is more balanced between fade and wof synergies. that may be more toward the build your looking for when you build a sin. she should have the durability of a ghost, with traps that should be damaging to most players, except those with crazy high res and life.
Summerfun
28-08-2007, 15:45
So how much dmg are you doing with Wof?
RedemptioN
28-08-2007, 20:03
So how much dmg are you doing with Wof?
947 max WoF damage on my sin with maxed WoF synergies and 3WoF on each claw. Multiply that by 5 traps shooting very fast, add in Mindblast, subtract uninteruptable attacks like Whirlwind or Charge, and you get a completely immobilized opponent whose life is falling fairly quickly.
947 max WoF damage on my sin with maxed WoF synergies and 3WoF on each claw. Multiply that by 5 traps shooting very fast, add in Mindblast, subtract uninteruptable attacks like Whirlwind or Charge, and you get a completely immobilized opponent whose life is falling fairly quickly.
your ugly face is what immobilizes me.
p.s. hi~!
Smithenator
28-08-2007, 22:15
Redemption, hit me up for some duels sometime, Im getting bored of dueling the same people over and over
RedemptioN
28-08-2007, 23:48
your ugly face is what immobilizes me.
p.s. hi~!
I Lol'd.
And okeedokee Shakohater, we'll pk sometime :P
darkelrond
30-08-2007, 06:19
dont flatter me :D
i will say that ww/wof hybrids tend to do much better in duels against hammerdins and smiters due to the fact that we have the option to sit back and let traps slowly do the work, or use ww to damage opponents quickly, but leaves your sin more vulnerable to attack.
the reason you sin and mine probably achieve similar ww damage is the fact that i have that 1 skill point higher in venom than your build, and my chaos is close to a perfect roll.
we should just keep working on refining your build and maybe i'll show you some strategies i use against different opponents in game.
personally i think ww/wof sins are a little bit more user friendly than ghosts are, but thats just the style i play. i like having both an offensive and defensive option if i need it.
i can also show you the way i intend to remake my ww/wof hybrid so that she is more balanced between fade and wof synergies. that may be more toward the build your looking for when you build a sin. she should have the durability of a ghost, with traps that should be damaging to most players, except those with crazy high res and life.
I love u fyre =) no homo
Updated to V1.9
Wake of Fire- Due to the overpowered stunning of WoF in earlier patches, Blizzard has added a .16 second (4 frame) NextDelay to WoF, which means that WoF will no longer stun every time a wave hits the target. After your WoF hits, the hidden NextDelay timer will run for .16 seconds, and until that timer runs out, although WoF may be graphically hitting the target, will not deal any damage. This NextDelay timer means that the fastest WoF will damage an opponent is once every 4 frames. As a corollary, that means that stacking copious amounts of WoF under a target will not be beneficial, as they cannot get stunned any faster than once per 4 frames. 2 WoF will fire in between each other’s waves, and so any more than 2 traps on the floor is usually useless. Stick with 1 trap when being offensive, and 2 when you are defensive or have time. Thanks to Speederländer for the clarification regarding the delay.
2 traps, at the very most, before you ww. YES, I"M TALKING TO YOU MIKE.
RedemptioN
01-09-2007, 05:05
Wefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwe fwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwef
More stun though?
Wefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwe fwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwefwef
More stun though?
that was sort of the point. you can't deal damage faster than once per 4 frames, so usually, 2 wof is about as much stun as you can get.
LS doesn't have the NextDelay though.
So basically 2 wof is max stun, but you can add 3 ls's to get even more?
So basically 2 wof is max stun, but you can add 3 ls's to get even more?
yea, but i don't know anyone that will let you set up 2+3 traps. WW hits faster than any of those traps, so try and transistion to that as soon as you can.
kkz thanks 4 the answers tien hey man.. i think i used 2 play wit u back n 1.09 on uswest before i switchd 2 useast.. i had a few diff account names but my last 1 on uswest was ancient-pvp.. ring ne bells.. u used 2 use a hybrid barb if ur the same person.. i had a trapper and a hybrid barb aswell.. u helpd me make my hybrid barb great :)
kkz thanks 4 the answers tien hey man.. i think i used 2 play wit u back n 1.09 on uswest before i switchd 2 useast.. i had a few diff account names but my last 1 on uswest was ancient-pvp.. ring ne bells.. u used 2 use a hybrid barb if ur the same person.. i had a trapper and a hybrid barb aswell.. u helpd me make my hybrid barb great :)
haha yea your name definitely rings a bell. hybrid babas were so hip back then. :afro:
probably my favorite class, among all the different builds i played back then.
ya :) good 2 talk 2 ya again man :D my hybrid baba was so fun. i miss him.. but when it converted 2 .10 he wasnt able 2 pack the punch he used 2! but now with teleportn babas n wat not.. hybrid just seems like a dead build.. thrown javas is useless since everyone (includin urself) can just tele around all day :P
do u have any accounts on useast?? im from the east side of the states if u remember.. so i figured i ought 2 play on useast.. not to mention i quit 4 so long i dont have nething nemore so it really didnt matter!
also things r so much more expensive on useast 4 some reason..
ya :) good 2 talk 2 ya again man :D my hybrid baba was so fun. i miss him.. but when it converted 2 .10 he wasnt able 2 pack the punch he used 2! but now with teleportn babas n wat not.. hybrid just seems like a dead build.. thrown javas is useless since everyone (includin urself) can just tele around all day :P
do u have any accounts on useast?? im from the east side of the states if u remember.. so i figured i ought 2 play on useast.. not to mention i quit 4 so long i dont have nething nemore so it really didnt matter!
also things r so much more expensive on useast 4 some reason..
i play my friends account on useast sometimes. i don't remember what they are now though, as i haven't been on them for a few months now.
i'm actually on the east side of the states now too; i'm in philadelphia for college, but i still play on west. just couldn't leave all the friends. :azn:
ya well.. around the time that i quit all my friends on uswest had quit aswell.. (u being 1 of em :P)
back to the topic at hand.. i have always thought highly of ur ideas and opinions so let me ask u some questions..
i read the ww/trapper hybrid guide n thought that the build could b better and slightly cheaper :P is it just me or r the damn shadow dancers not important at all?? i mean im not a big fan of df when i could just tele..
doin the ghost/trapper mix gives u lil more effectivness vs babas
lets say i took ur build n combined it with his.. i focus on the psn side of the ghost sin and combine it with the trapper aspects.. skill wise pretty much the same as he distributed them with +1 n wof and +1 bladeshield as well.. seeing as if your goin for the psn side of ww the claw mast shouldnt b too important no??
suit him up wit fools for the ar and chaos cuz duh..
and gear him up 4 the psn ghost build as u stated swapin shadow gc's 4 trap gc's when needed
also he recomended some very str needy itams n im thinkn thats not a great idea.. and it should b damn close 2 as viable as his build.. what u think?
ya well.. around the time that i quit all my friends on uswest had quit aswell.. (u being 1 of em :P)
back to the topic at hand.. i have always thought highly of ur ideas and opinions so let me ask u some questions..
i read the ww/trapper hybrid guide n thought that the build could b better and slightly cheaper :P is it just me or r the damn shadow dancers not important at all?? i mean im not a big fan of df when i could just tele..
doin the ghost/trapper mix gives u lil more effectivness vs babas
lets say i took ur build n combined it with his.. i focus on the psn side of the ghost sin and combine it with the trapper aspects.. skill wise pretty much the same as he distributed them with +1 n wof and +1 bladeshield as well.. seeing as if your goin for the psn side of ww the claw mast shouldnt b too important no??
suit him up wit fools for the ar and chaos cuz duh..
and gear him up 4 the psn ghost build as u stated swapin shadow gc's 4 trap gc's when needed
also he recomended some very str needy itams n im thinkn thats not a great idea.. and it should b damn close 2 as viable as his build.. what u think?
yea, i play with ollie on uswest right now, and his current sin is actually a ghost build.
i agree with you; i didn't like ollie's sdancer choice for his sin, since he doesn't use any kicks. i think those rare res/stat/fhr/frw boots are much better choices in general. he uses a rare pair for his ghost right now iirc.
as for a combo build between the two, if the ww/ls sin is too much trapper for you, try out a wof/ww hybrid. wof will still stun very well, and will be a good offensive trap, as well as supplementing WW much better. i've never been a fan of ww/ls sins myself, but others will defend the build vehemently.
the wof/ww build would go along something like:
equip
shako /w 15res/15ias
2/15 fcr ammy
fools gt of quick /w 2 um (+3 wof)
gt chaos (+3 wof)
enig
trangs
spider
fcr ring
raven frost
booties
9 shadow gcs
life/mana or fine/vita or vita/res scs
skills
20 venom
1 claw mastery
1 fade
1 bos
1 blade shield
20 wof
20 woi
20 fire blast
1 shadow master
1 claw block
10 mb
all that together at lvl 90 gives you 9 frame traps, 4 frame ww, and 42 DR, if you cast fade with the cta switch (+2 extra skills). you can also buff with +shadow disc claws if you really need the DR, but i've found that 42% will be more than enough. 1 point in claw block will give you 58% blocking, which is respectable by any means. damage will be slightly lower than the ghost without the claw mastery, but with the help of the fools claw, your AR will be high enough to hit most everything. if you manage to find 2 claws with +3 wof each, your wof will be doing ~1k damage, which is also very good.
if you don't mind wsm bugging (i think its really worth it for hybrids), you can replace your GT chaos with a GT suwayyah and bug it to -45 WSM, meaning you don't need to use the ias jewel in the shako, opening it up to jah or ber. plus, you'll also do more damage.
hrrm i think i like that idea better.. goin 4 psn dmg ww with high dmg wof sounds like a great combo n gives u the old skool hybrid feel :)
now u keep sayin fools gt wit 2 socs.. so ur sayin find fools and do soc quest on em till u manage 2 pull out 2 socs on 1 huh??
but ya.. gettin wof on both sounds like a task n itself :P but everything will b a task 4 me seen how im startin over n have nothing :P but i usually can pull out decent chars real quickly n upgrade itams down the road pretty effectivly.. man if u ever get on ur friends east accounts from time 2 time hit me up if im on.. i kept it old skool buddy *Ancient-PvP
RedemptioN
06-09-2007, 04:57
God Dave is such a noob. OHHI
PS. Use fury. YEA YEA!
i think fools would b the better option 4 my build
RedemptioN
06-09-2007, 18:36
I think you're wrong. Try it.
Queen Mebd
06-09-2007, 19:11
i think fools would b the better option 4 my build
I've got to go with RedemptioN on this one. If you do happen to have a fool's of quickness with two um's in the sockets it should be fine, if not use the fool's situationally where you'll need the ar vs high def opponents, otherwise use the fury. The 66% ow is not to be underestimated, especially on a damage over time build such as a wwsin.
On a side note, it is possible to track down 3 wof claws, it just takes a little while. I had the fortune of being given one with 3 wof/3 mb (care of Ulmty before he took off). Also drop a pm Idyll when you get your gal up and running, I play a ww/trapper here on east and am always trying to connect with other wwsins.
HappyAssassin
11-09-2007, 18:56
WW/LS OWNZ GHOST EZ EZ EZ.
Er, yeah, most of what dave said so far is good. Personally I like having S Dancers on a hybrid since they give you DR and venom damage and claw block, but on a ghost they are much less useful. Using good Rares on a ghost is the way to go. I have Dancers on my Ghost because she was made on ladder, and I used to use kicks back in the day. The thing is, I don't want to remake my Ghost nowadays, I don't log much time on D2 and since I'm remaking my barb, I'd be stuck doing a LOT of leveling. If I did I would use my old circlet (dex and FRW instead of str and resists), rare boots and I'd try to find an eBug Chaos to speed glitch with. I also wouldn't include a bramble switch, I don't duel in many situations in which it is useful and I don't need the epride boost from sin v sin anymore, which was the point of the melee switch in the first place (to kill other sins). I really wish I had a perm 1/08 valk :(
Gib Gib???
Summerfun
11-09-2007, 20:33
I really wish I had a perm 1/08 valk :(
To bad you are not on europe
I really wish I had a perm 1/08 valk :(
0.125 valk?
WHAT CHEATS ARE YOU USING OLLIE?
RedemptioN
12-09-2007, 02:12
0.125 valk?
WHAT CHEATS ARE YOU USING OLLIE?
OH FUNNY MATH JOKE.
ZZZZZZZZZZing.
Quick question about Fade and the Damage Reduction...
I've got most of the gear I need together (just need 1 FHR Shadow Skiller) but i'm a bit unsure about how i'm going to get to 50% DR.
I have +20 Shadow skills with my setup but none of it gives any DR. With Fade only giving 1% for every point the maximum I could obtain is a Fade of level 40, this being 10% short. Will that 10% really hurt me or can I just ignore it? I do have a 15% Verdungo's but using that instead of an Arachnid would put me under the 65% FCR you suggested.
Thanks.
EDIT:
you only need 42% ias if you use 2 GT's, so you need at most 1 ias jewel in your helm. the second slot will be much better used if its filled with an jah or something of the sort.
I just searched the thread (wish I had done that before posting and making myself look the fool) and both my Fury and Chaos are in GT's. So it looks like the 'dungo's are in!
Second EDIT:
I'm all questions today!
Is it viable going base Strength and Dex? I can pull it off with my setup, is going max Vita better then say... not?
Thanks!
So it does... Oops!
I blame the fact that I had just woken up for that slip. For the others... well that's just me ><
Any insight into the max vita route for me :)?
So it does... Oops!
I blame the fact that I had just woken up for that slip. For the others... well that's just me ><
Any insight into the max vita route for me :)?
you should be building for maximum vita, regardless if you have to place str/dex for your items. you won't really get much extra damage from the extra STR, and the AR bonus from invested DEX is also very small, so once you have enough stats for your eqiupment, lay it all into vita. depending on your rings and circlet, you may be able to use your GT's without any points added into DEX. you definitely won't need any STR with enigma.
p.s. if you cast fade with your bo switch, you'll get +2-3 to fade :azn:. there's always room for you to get +3 fade on your claws as well.
DayDream
12-09-2007, 21:50
40% IAS Fool’s Modded Greater Talons (2 Um’s) [primary]
So it HAS to be 40ias on the fool's?
Asking this because I found a Fool's GT, 10ias, 3venom,2ls
And on switch is.. cta with a lidless? or pumping enough strength for spirit?
So it HAS to be 40ias on the fool's?
Asking this because I found a Fool's GT, 10ias, 3venom,2ls
And on switch is.. cta with a lidless? or pumping enough strength for spirit?
the IAS on the fools is there for the 9 frame trap laying. you'll have to see how much IAS you need on the claw for the claw/eqiup setup you have.
AWSM | IAS
-30 | 42%
-25 | 52%
-20 | 63%
-15 | 75%
on switch is whatever shield you have enough str for. use your best judgement (calculate it gogo) as to whether pumping str for spirit will give you more life than using a sigons/lidless.
WW/LS OWNZ GHOST EZ EZ EZ.
Er, yeah, most of what dave said so far is good. Personally I like having S Dancers on a hybrid since they give you DR and venom damage and claw block, but on a ghost they are much less useful. Using good Rares on a ghost is the way to go. I have Dancers on my Ghost because she was made on ladder, and I used to use kicks back in the day. The thing is, I don't want to remake my Ghost nowadays, I don't log much time on D2 and since I'm remaking my barb, I'd be stuck doing a LOT of leveling. If I did I would use my old circlet (dex and FRW instead of str and resists), rare boots and I'd try to find an eBug Chaos to speed glitch with. I also wouldn't include a bramble switch, I don't duel in many situations in which it is useful and I don't need the epride boost from sin v sin anymore, which was the point of the melee switch in the first place (to kill other sins). I really wish I had a perm 1/08 valk :(
Gib Gib???
Great Ollie, now I need to remake MY sin because I followed what you told me before :cry:
RedemptioN
13-09-2007, 05:17
Great Ollie, now I need to remake MY sin because I followed what you told me before :cry:
Yea don't think for yourself just copy him. :prop:
HappyAssassin
15-09-2007, 19:37
Nah dun remake your ghost KQ, it's good for what you use it for. I would only think about remaking because I do such limited dueling these days. My old setup is pretty damn good, it has better MB and life than Dave's sin, but less damage and marginally less stack. They match up pretty evenly sin vs. sin except when he 2v1s me with a necro giving him amp and spamming prisons on me (which is most of the time).
They match up pretty evenly sin vs. sin except when he 2v1s me with a necro giving him amp and spamming prisons on me (which is most of the time).
team duels are awesome :azn:
HappyAssassin
16-09-2007, 18:36
Yah tis, I'll be on today for some if I can find the time.
I find 1on1s 10 times more exiting than tvts. So many tactics and strategies lose their effectivity in tvt and generally I dont like to lose just because my teammates are bad.
When I consitantly lose 1v1s I know why and can try to improve =]
Alright, been sitting here trying to figure this out:
Helm Options:
2/20 Circ or 08 Valk
Amulet:
Highlords Maras
My Claws:
Fury Runic
Chaos Feral
What possible combinations helm/amulets can I do and still hit the proper WW and Trap BP's?
Alright, been sitting here trying to figure this out:
Helm Options:
2/20 Circ or 08 Valk
Amulet:
Highlords Maras
My Claws:
Fury Runic
Chaos Feral
What possible combinations helm/amulets can I do and still hit the proper WW and Trap BP's?
you'll always hit the proper ww bp, so you don't need to worry about that.
for trap laying bp's, i see 4 different combos you could use. there's too many different factors here for us to tell you all the combinations you can use, most namely the composition of the jewels in the circlet.
your claw/ammy selection should be based on other factors. you won't want to use highlords if you're using 9 shadow gcs, nor will you want to use fatty claws, etc. we need some more information before we can help you decide whats best.
Currently, I have 9 Shadow Lifers. My setup so far has been to wear the valk and 2xraven, with Mara's as the amulet. Would I need lighter claws with this setup?
The Circlet is open socket atm, due to uncertainty about what I was lacking.
Currently, I have 9 Shadow Lifers. My setup so far has been to wear the valk and 2xraven, with Mara's as the amulet. Would I need lighter claws with this setup?
The Circlet is open socket atm, due to uncertainty about what I was lacking.
you have enough ias for your current claws, so you're in the clear. you should probably use lighter claws though, as GT's will require much less dex, giving you more life. if you don't want to remake, you're fine just the way you are.
what i'm more concerned about with your current build is your AR. i get the feeling that you are severely lacking in that department. what is your life/damage/AR?
i usually don't recommend .08 valks for ghosts, because i don't think its efficient. you would benefit a good amount from the +2sin on circlets, along with the extra stats that can spawn on one. is there some reason why you strayed from the normal 9 shadow gc build?
3915 life
7342 ar
3900 avg whirl damage
I found when I use a circlet, I need to unequip one of my ravens, and then I take a bad dip in ar, my fcr ring is:
10/111AR/18str/10 resist
Also, my current circlet is less than stellar, its just a plain 2/20/2os
3915 life
7342 ar
3900 avg whirl damage
I found when I use a circlet, I need to unequip one of my ravens, and then I take a bad dip in ar, my fcr ring is:
10/111AR/18str/10 resist
Also, my current circlet is less than stellar, its just a plain 2/20/2os
stick with your current setup then. the only thing i would think about would be just to rebuild for using 2 GT's instead of runic/feral, but thats up to you. your life seems to be fine as it is.
p.s. when you use a circlet and take off a raven frost, the normal thing to do is to switch your fury with a fools/quickness with 2 um's. you'll get ~15k ar with that setup.
Hey Tien, I saw the screenshot of your character screen, and you venom damage is unreal. Is that from 3/20/20's or what?
Hey Tien, I saw the screenshot of your character screen, and you venom damage is unreal. Is that from 3/20/20's or what?
well my damage comes from the 3/20/20's and the fatty claw i use, as well as the venom (though 9 shadow gc builds should have more venom than i do). if i remember correctly, i used a small buff (bramble) to cast venom in that picture. usually, 9 shadow gc builds have more damage than physical builds (like my sin) on the character screen. when i duel normally, i have a little bit over 4k damage on my chaos claw, of which ~60% is physical.
you shouldn't worry about your damage though. if you have the proper items, you'll be just fine.
infyrana
26-09-2007, 01:12
May I ask what a "9 shadow gc build" is please ?
Smithenator
26-09-2007, 01:20
a "9 shadow gc build" is a ghost that uses shadow gcs instead of 3/20/20 scs.
May I ask what a "9 shadow gc build" is please ?
when i say 9 shadow gc build, i usually mean a sin that uses the venom damage setup (since it uses 9 shadow gcs, compared to the physical which uses far less)
I dont know if you want to put this, but the ideal Helm would have a visionary mod on it (%ar Based on lvl). only one has dropped this ladder but its freaken bad
Need some strategy advice, I find myself not casting WoF at all and just MB, tele whirl alot against almost every class. every time i try to MB to WoF and back to MB, the trap doesnt go off in time and the target is outa range when it is activated. Any advice on what im doing wrong? i dont have much trouble against anyone without casting the traps, but figure maybe i'd have even less trouble against classes. Also, i have a really high dmg 40 ias Fools Rare runic with an Um socketed, and a lower dmg runic fury. with the rare i hit 14k AR. was wondering if i should just lose the fury and stay with the fools all the time? sorry its so long and thanks in advance
Need some strategy advice, I find myself not casting WoF at all and just MB, tele whirl alot against almost every class. every time i try to MB to WoF and back to MB, the trap doesnt go off in time and the target is outa range when it is activated. Any advice on what im doing wrong? i dont have much trouble against anyone without casting the traps, but figure maybe i'd have even less trouble against classes. Also, i have a really high dmg 40 ias Fools Rare runic with an Um socketed, and a lower dmg runic fury. with the rare i hit 14k AR. was wondering if i should just lose the fury and stay with the fools all the time? sorry its so long and thanks in advance
you should cast the wof as soon as you see them on screen, and then hold MB down until the trap makes contact with them; the traps won't hit if you don't hold them in place with MB while it fires. you should always try to use the corners of your screen, so that it makes it harder for them to see when you are in range and have a lock.
the claw selection depends on your build. are you a 9 shadow gc ghost? whats your ar with the spirit? DS?
yea im 9 shadow GC ghost, 10x AR/20 life SCs. Not sure what spirit and DS your refering to. maybe its just really late and i cant think straight
yea im 9 shadow GC ghost, 10x AR/20 life SCs. Not sure what spirit and DS your refering to. maybe its just really late and i cant think straight
i'm slightly inebriateddd, and i think i meant to say fury instead of spirit.
i'm slightly inebriateddd, and i think i meant to say fury instead of spirit.
lmfao, with the fury its like 6-9k which is really sub par for anything dealing with an opponent with defense.
lmfao, with the fury its like 6-9k which is really sub par for anything dealing with an opponent with defense.
stick with fury vs casters, and pop on the fools vs paladins/barbs. the extra physical damage that your rare fools gives you probably isn't worth the OW and DS% that you lose when you replace fury. i actually recently got my hands on an eth self-repair fools/cruel runic fury, and was going through the same thought process, though after dueling a few times, i found that the fury actually did more damage (max damage charms + DS% made up for the difference in claw damage). i only use the rare eth fools when i need the AR, even though its so sexy.
HappyAssassin
01-10-2007, 22:28
Told you dave, but isn't my claw sexy anyway?
Told you dave, but isn't my claw sexy anyway?
actually i just recently started using the eth claw vs vita chars because i calculated it out to have ~200 more average physical damage. i still use fury for block/es though.
and yes. MAS SEXAY.
peterpaulrubens
02-10-2007, 00:09
In regards to the Wake of Fire NextDelay thing:
There's fairly solid evidence that NextDelay doesn't function in PVP, at least not the same way it works in PVM. For example, Tornado has a 25-frame (1 second) NextDelay. If NextDelay functions as expected, a Wind Druid would be able to damage you exactly once a second with their Tornadoes, which would theoretically limit their damage to about 1.3K a second with perfect gear against an opponent with no DR. Anyone who's been telejumped by a windy knows that damage-per-second is absurdly low.
Also, see how fast a Strafing PVP amazon can destroy someone who telejumps them, despite the 4-frame NextDelay of Strafe.
Also, see how well a Ghost or fire trapper can lock down an opponent with a few Wake of Fires. :D
I dunno if that changes your recommmendation on how many WoFs to throw before attempting to WW, but there it is.
-PPR
In regards to the Wake of Fire NextDelay thing:
There's fairly solid evidence that NextDelay doesn't function in PVP, at least not the same way it works in PVM. For example, Tornado has a 25-frame (1 second) NextDelay. If NextDelay functions as expected, a Wind Druid would be able to damage you exactly once a second with their Tornadoes, which would theoretically limit their damage to about 1.3K a second with perfect gear against an opponent with no DR. Anyone who's been telejumped by a windy knows that damage-per-second is absurdly low.
Also, see how fast a Strafing PVP amazon can destroy someone who telejumps them, despite the 4-frame NextDelay of Strafe.
Also, see how well a Ghost or fire trapper can lock down an opponent with a few Wake of Fires. :D
I dunno if that changes your recommmendation on how many WoFs to throw before attempting to WW, but there it is.
-PPR
i've noticed the ~1 second delay with tornados, though it seems that limit is only for each individual tornado. like you said, when there is more than one tornado, they definitely hit more than one time per second. i've seen firsthand that characters don't get stunned by 5 wof as much as 5 LS, which to the best of my knowledge, does not exhibit the NextDelay feature. i've looked at the stun animations of the char sitting in the traps, and it does seem to occur only at ~4 frames. having a ghost lock down so well doesn't mean that the 4 frame NextDelay doesn't exist though, considering that most FHR animations average ~5 frames.
i'm not sure why these two skills exhibit different NextDelay features, but i wouldn't put it past blizzard to have them tuned a little bit differently per skill.
peterpaulrubens
02-10-2007, 01:37
I've actually wondered if maybe it's just capped in PVP. 25 frames for Tornado would be much too long for PVP, but perhaps 4 frames for WoF is reasonable.
Someday I'll get around to modding an open character to have 100% CTC Hydra when struck, and see just how many Hydras pop up when someone Strafes me after I've teleported on top of them. I'd just need a willing Strafer.... Meh. Someday. :prop:
I've actually wondered if maybe it's just capped in PVP. 25 frames for Tornado would be much too long for PVP, but perhaps 4 frames for WoF is reasonable.
Someday I'll get around to modding an open character to have 100% CTC Hydra when struck, and see just how many Hydras pop up when someone Strafes me after I've teleported on top of them. I'd just need a willing Strafer.... Meh. Someday. :prop:
leave it to blizz to make things overly complicated :shocked:
HappyAssassin
02-10-2007, 08:57
I thought it was established ages ago that the most solid lock is x2 wakes and x3 LS, and that it was also established that no one ever gets that many traps on a good caster in practice, and it's best to tele ww with 1 or 2 wakes down.
I thought it was established ages ago that the most solid lock is x2 wakes and x3 LS, and that it was also established that no one ever gets that many traps on a good caster in practice, and it's best to tele ww with 1 or 2 wakes down.
yea, i think thats still true. the nextdelay means wof can't hit faster htan once every 4 frames, but LS doesn't have that limit, so filling the rest of the 5 trap limit with LS after WoF maxes out will give you the most possible stun.
RedemptioN
02-10-2007, 16:05
Imo 5 Charged Bolt Sentries And Just Go Ape**** With Ww.
Zzzzzzzzzz caps
Jenny wong
04-10-2007, 16:08
ok, so i love my ghost... but i need to learn some stuff before i can get any better.
1. fools modded claw, is that just a magic claw with the +AR per char level mod?
2. How does WoF stun, im to understand you need to cause 1/12 of a players health to put them into FHR. my WoF traps do like 30 damage in pvp.(Really need some insight on this one i want to understand the mechanics of stunning with WoF)
3. how do i calculate DR from Fade in 1.11b version... its not on tooltip :(
4. dex doesnt boost claw block skill? only points right? and whats max block 60 or 75?
Man if some people can help me on these issues id love u for ever tytytyty
RedemptioN
04-10-2007, 17:40
ok, so i love my ghost... but i need to learn some stuff before i can get any better.
1. fools modded claw, is that just a magic claw with the +AR per char level mod?
As taken from the Arreat Summit, fools mod gives: + (16.5 Per Character Level) 16.5-1633.5 To Attack Rating / + (0.5 Per Character Level) 0.5-49.5 To Maximum Damage (Based On Character Level) and can appear on either magic or rare weapons.
2. How does WoF stun, im to understand you need to cause 1/12 of a players health to put them into FHR. my WoF traps do like 30 damage in pvp.(Really need some insight on this one i want to understand the mechanics of stunning with WoF)
In combination with Mindblast, WoF stuns very well. Mindblast gives your opponent swirlies above their head which helps put them into their fhr animation. So when your opponent has swirlies from MB, lay some WoF and their FHR will be in effect, creating your stunlock.
3. how do i calculate DR from Fade in 1.11b version... its not on tooltip :(
The sLvl of fade = your DR. So let's say you have 8DR from enigma and you want max (50) DR. That mean's you'll need to cast lvl 42 fade. So that could mean using 9gcs, etc. Prebuffing fade works.
4. dex doesnt boost claw block skill? only points right? and whats max block 60 or 75?
Dex does not boost claw block. Max block for CB is 63 I believe. Anything over that is just completely unreasonable. Aim for slvl 26 CB, which gives you 60% block.
Man if some people can help me on these issues id love u for ever tytytyty
No problem.
Queen Mebd
04-10-2007, 18:01
1. Fool's is an ar/level mod, claws that can carry the mod can be magic (you'll want fool's and quickness mods) or rare something like this (http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc45/Maraboot/Screenshot090.jpg).
2. When someone has mindblast swirlies over them, any damage will put them into recovery, 30 damage from wake of fire will certainly do this.
3. One point in in fade confers a passive one point pdr bonus so long as fade is active, so if you cast a level 42 fade, that's 42 pdr right there.
4. Only points in clawblock boost blocking with claws, correct. The practical maximum for clawblock is usually 60. Keep in mind your blocking will drop to zero when running or walking.
Now you can go read the guide. :wink:
edit: holy redundancy, I didn't see that RedemptioN edited the quote too.
edit: holy redundancy, I didn't see that RedemptioN edited the quote too.
i did the same thing, hence the edit + 1 liner :azn:
RedemptioN
04-10-2007, 20:54
i did the same thing, hence the edit + 1 liner :azn:
Yea owned.
BASHFUL BABA
05-10-2007, 06:13
Hi guys, which of these claws is better? My ghost sin is venom-based
http://xs220.xs.to/xs220/07403/hthtrhtrhrt21212121212.png
#2: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r181/l2ecovel2/untitled-1.jpg
edit, one more question -- why don't more people use Bartuc for this build? I'm looking at the stats:
Damage: (77-88) To (137-155) (107-121.5 Avg)
Required Level: 42
Required Strength: 79
Required Dexterity: 79
Durability: 69
Weapon Speed: [-30]
(Assassin Only)
+150-200% Enhanced Damage (varies)
Adds 25-50 Damage
30% Faster Hit Recovery
20% Bonus To Attack Rating
5-9% Life Stolen Per Hit (varies)
+20 To Strength
+20 To Dexterity
+2 To Assassin Skill Levels
+1 To Martial Arts Skills (Assassin Only)
And they have good AR bonus of 20% which would help to compensate for the loss of Fool's AR, it has good damage at up to 200% ed, it has +2 all skills, then big life bonus with +20 str +20 dex, and also more life with 30% fhr so you can use more life skillers instead of fhr.
Now while that is all good, you can get ethereal Bartuc and then upgrade to Runic and Zod them... isn't this gg? Like 190%+ eth upped Bartuc's... how could a Fool's mod claw like the ones I've linked be better than Bartuc with all of these good mods? Thanks
Hi guys, which of these claws is better? My ghost sin is venom-based
http://xs220.xs.to/xs220/07403/hthtrhtrhrt21212121212.png
#2: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r181/l2ecovel2/untitled-1.jpg
edit, one more question -- why don't more people use Bartuc for this build? I'm looking at the stats:
Damage: (77-88) To (137-155) (107-121.5 Avg)
Required Level: 42
Required Strength: 79
Required Dexterity: 79
Durability: 69
Weapon Speed: [-30]
(Assassin Only)
+150-200% Enhanced Damage (varies)
Adds 25-50 Damage
30% Faster Hit Recovery
20% Bonus To Attack Rating
5-9% Life Stolen Per Hit (varies)
+20 To Strength
+20 To Dexterity
+2 To Assassin Skill Levels
+1 To Martial Arts Skills (Assassin Only)
And they have good AR bonus of 20% which would help to compensate for the loss of Fool's AR, it has good damage at up to 200% ed, it has +2 all skills, then big life bonus with +20 str +20 dex, and also more life with 30% fhr so you can use more life skillers instead of fhr.
Now while that is all good, you can get ethereal Bartuc and then upgrade to Runic and Zod them... isn't this gg? Like 190%+ eth upped Bartuc's... how could a Fool's mod claw like the ones I've linked be better than Bartuc with all of these good mods? Thanks
i believe that stuffing a fools claw with a rare +2sin mod is a little bit overrated. the reason venom sins use fools is to mitigate the AR problem, which works fine because they aren't focused on physical damage any way. that being said, the reason why people suggest using magical fools/quickness claws is because you can 2x Um rune it for open wounds, which makes your ghost much much stronger. (sacrificing 25% open wounds isn't worth the +2 skills in my opinion; you could, of course, try and find a +2 sin rare fools claw with ias the 2 sockets...)
as for your claw choice, i wouldn't really use either of them. they're both too slow and have no open wounds, which is idealy what your fools claw should be adding in terms of damage. if you're using those rare claws for the physical damage, you will probably benefit most from a setup change, in which case you won't need the shael and will be able to at least 1x um the first claw.
the second claw is pretty worthless sadly, though it has some pretty cool mods.
as for the bartucs, its not really a good choice because it doesn't address the problem that your primary claw slot is meant to address. the reason why you are using fools is for the massive +AR, which helps to mitigate the low AR resulting from using 9 shadow gcs. Bartucs just doesn't add enough AR from the +skills and +dex to make up for it (the +20% AR gets added to the huge amount of +AR% you get from mastery, which means it doesn't do very much). if you don't need the AR from fools however, a fury will suit your purposes much better.
don't underestimate the power of open wounds. :wink3:
BASHFUL BABA
05-10-2007, 18:47
i believe that stuffing a fools claw with a rare +2sin mod is a little bit overrated. the reason venom sins use fools is to mitigate the AR problem, which works fine because they aren't focused on physical damage any way. that being said, the reason why people suggest using magical fools/quickness claws is because you can 2x Um rune it for open wounds, which makes your ghost much much stronger. (sacrificing 25% open wounds isn't worth the +2 skills in my opinion; you could, of course, try and find a +2 sin rare fools claw with ias the 2 sockets...)
as for your claw choice, i wouldn't really use either of them. they're both too slow and have no open wounds, which is idealy what your fools claw should be adding in terms of damage. if you're using those rare claws for the physical damage, you will probably benefit most from a setup change, in which case you won't need the shael and will be able to at least 1x um the first claw.
the second claw is pretty worthless sadly, though it has some pretty cool mods.
as for the bartucs, its not really a good choice because it doesn't address the problem that your primary claw slot is meant to address. the reason why you are using fools is for the massive +AR, which helps to mitigate the low AR resulting from using 9 shadow gcs. Bartucs just doesn't add enough AR from the +skills and +dex to make up for it (the +20% AR gets added to the huge amount of +AR% you get from mastery, which means it doesn't do very much). if you don't need the AR from fools however, a fury will suit your purposes much better.
don't underestimate the power of open wounds. :wink3:
I see.. thanks for the info. I could get a magical 40 ias, fool's claw really easily but my concern is the lack of ed%. So you're saying the fact that I'm Venom-based would make the loss of 250-300% ed from the rare claws negligible?
While we're here, I wanted to post my setup options and ask what you think / any suggestions / etc.. I'm on US East Ladder. This one is a lil different setup:
Helm: +3 shadow disc, 20 fcr, 2os (ber + ber)
Armor: mp enigma
Mesh belt: 24% fhr, 9% open wounds, +21 str, +24 life
Rings: raven, fcr ring +40 life, 70 mana, 67 ar
Ammy: +2 sin with 15 fcr (need to get this)
Charms: 19/20 torch, high anni, gc's so far: 34, 37, 40, 40, fhr (will get 2 more fhr, 2 more lifers)
Claw main: 40 ias, fool's magical w/ 2 um (gt or runic i guess)
Claw secondary: chaos, +3 venom
Trang glove
Boots: Shadow dancers, +2, 2x dex
FCR bp: 65 (20, 20, 10, 15)
FHR: 86 (24 belt, 30 boots, 3x fhr gc)
PDR%: 8 armor, 16 helm, lvl 26 fade (+22 skills, 4 pts base) = 50
What this setup does is save a lot of skill points from putting in Fade to use in a gg Shadow master that will tank, be immune to elemental attacks, and use insane mind blast, and it also gives 86 fhr bp instead of 48.
Skill pts (lvl 91, 103 points): 20 venom, 20 claw mastery, 20 mind blast, 20 Shadow master, 4 Fade, 1 Weapon Block, 1 WoF, 1 Blade Shield, 1 Blade Fury, 6 in Prereqs
Total: 94, with 9 points remaining (for???)
+ Str: 20 base, 19 torch, 20 anni, 21 belt, 68 enigma: 148 (so 19 points in str for shadow dancers)
+ Dex: 20 base, 19 torch, 20 anni, 20 raven, 2x shadow dancers (so maybe 15-20 pts in dex for -15 reqs Widowmaker)
What do you think?
edit, hmm I just realized that my IAS for trap laying may be too low?? If so, I could just shael the circ and put those extra 9 skill points into Fade I guess?
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