Support unusual builds!

[Cormallon]

In the last few weeks there were quite some build discussion threads that made me think about the stance of the SPF community over the build ideas people propose.

In most of these, someone asked if or how a certain idea would work. And very often it ended like 'why do you want to do that, some other build is more powerful'

This post is meant as a gentle reminder of what makes the SPF that great: the ability to make almost EVERYTHING work.

When someone asks, how a combination of blizzard, fireball and energy shield could work, don't talk them out of that idea but MAKE it work. A freeze / shock zealot IS possible, why suggest dumping freeze altogether and use HF merc instead? Look through the last couple of pages and you'll find many more examples.

I myself asked about the choice of three runeword armours, and got quite a lot of suggestions not to use any of them at all but take some standard equip instead. I knew about standard equipment choices, and want a change... (still undecided and collecting eth armours, btw).

I guess some of these reactions are a result of lots of long time members leaving, and the gaps are filled with new people. This is not a bad thing, but it changes the community for sure. But: When people mostly get talked out of their ideas, they don't feel 'at home' in the SPF. Help them being creative, help them find their way, don't support only cookie-cutters and power-play!

[xduckster]

Hear hear! May all styles have their chance at fame!

edit: OK, maybe I do feel a little bit guilty just spamming like that. But this is something that I agree with 100%. It's the unusual builds that make us all different. Also, for those people playing for a long time, it gets boring using the same items over and over again. Sometimes we need to change things around a little.

[Ugla]

I like the unorthodox builds unless they rely solely upon (poor) monster AI. Being a little different is nice, but not a reason for being totally incompetent.

I never liked "naked" builds nor too hard limitations on equipment/skills used. It destroys the strategy the same way an uber-gear does. Also many of the under-used skills are bugged, which is exactly the reason for being under-used.

I have played both cookie-cutters and theme builds in approximately 1:1 ratio, and loved or hated them regardless of their "type". The main criterion for me is how much my own strategy/skill affects the game, i.e. whether I can really make a difference :cool:, or if a well written script did same (or better :embarassed: ).

[stephan]

If someone asks "Does this work?", I assume he means it in respect to the standard builds. I also assume he is open to suggestions (not orders!) to make his build more effecient. It would be very dishonest to pass off every build as 'ok' just because some people solo the game naked. The naked builds require just as much careful planning as a cookie-cutter build.

If someone asks about his own build ideas, I assume he wants criticism, not confirmation. If he decides to go his own way anyway, I'm fine with that.

[sirpoopsalot]

bah...

I think there was a "what are some of your favourite non-cookie-cutter builds that you've tried?" thread 3-6 months ago, but of course no luck with the search engine. Too bad though, there were some really clever ones. I wish I could provide a link.


And I do agree with Cormallon's point... trying something different and creative can really be a fun experience, and it's nice to not be posting the 800th Hammerdin/Meteorb/Fishy pat thread of the month (not that I have anything against cookie-cutters, but there are always other ideas to try too - that's one of the reasons I still play D2).

[Darkoooo]

bah...

I think there was a "what are some of your favourite non-cookie-cutter builds that you've tried?" thread 3-6 months ago, but of course no luck with the search engine. Too bad though, there were some really clever ones. I wish I could provide a link.


Here ye! Here ye!

Found two:tongue: :
Really, really old:
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=147533&highlight=unusual+build
And the one you were thinking about:
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=546932&highlight=favorite

And I do agree with Cormallon, I think we shouldn't exclude some unusual builds. But hey, we should at least try to get them near to perfection(without destroying the original idea). If you want to go play naked, go...

edit:
I think that Blizzballer with ES would actually work, but I don't know if Frost/Shock Pally would(wouldn't it be like throwing away 20 points when you can't use both auras at the same time?)

[Cormallon]

... but I don't know if Frost/Shock Pally would(wouldn't it be like throwing away 20 points when you can't use both auras at the same time?)

You can't use it at the same time, but you can switch. I'm currently playing a mageazon through hell at P3, and she switches between frozen and immolation arrows according to the monsters she encounters. The merc adds a third component (physical). Same situation: I have two elemental attacks to choose from, but can't use them simultanously.

[Hrus]

I agree with stephan. When someone asks how will his build work, I will allways try to help him to make his build stronger and explain the flaws of the build assuming that it is what the asking person wants to hear. (And yes I admit I might be wrong sometimes)

And there is also a difference between an unorthodox build and a screwed build.
For example tripple element sorc is the unorthodox build for someone, but for me, it's screwed and week (skill points are too spread all over the skill trees and you really don't need 4 different kinds of damage).
When I have an unorthodox build in mind, it's usually a character that is built around an unorthodox skill (Thorns, Fend, Sacrifice, Armageddon, Lightning Strike, Hunger) like some SSoG's builds.

[Jaedhann]

......... but I don't know if Frost/Shock Pally would(wouldn't it be like throwing away 20 points when you can't use both auras at the same time?)

ahum (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=446163), yes a teslafroster is very viable and fun. No immunes to your attack.

And as for fun, unorthodox builds, yes please, don't try to turn them into coockie-cutters. Try to improve them in the spirit of the idea, not try to improve them into something else.

-Jae

[yiuman]

In most of these, someone asked if or how a certain idea would work. And very often it ended like 'why do you want to do that, some other build is more powerful'

This post is meant as a gentle reminder of what makes the SPF that great: the ability to make almost EVERYTHING work.


I agree that most any build has the capability to work (if by work you mean completing the game) and its great when people offer suggestions and ideas on how to make an idea work.

However, I think we shouldn't be so supportive on this forum that we don't make the gentle point that the suggested character might.... struggle.... when it gets to higher difficulties. Its useful to say that whilst a fine idea, the character would struggle to do enough damage to complete the game. This isn't to put them off making an unusual/underpowered build, but that they do it with their eyes open as it is disappointing to say the least to get to Hell and find out your character no longer has the power to kill things and you don't have the patience/desire to crawl through hell at a snails pace.

I think it is also useful to note the difference between an unusual build and an underpowered one.

[Darkoooo]

ahum (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=446163), yes a teslafroster is very viable and fun. No immunes to your attack.


Well, you see, maybe the problem with me is that I don't see Diablo 2 as a "fun" game. I don't even think that CE, stomping on bunnies, or whatever could make me laugh. Well, there would be one thing, seeing a 99 character getting killed by a Flayer:laugh:

[TheBhoy]

I have recently started a staff wielding barb with very little mid/high end equip and am having a lot of fun with it. I needed help and got it so people do support it and for me, I look for constructive cristisicm. and that is what i try to give as well.

'dont do it' doesn't help anyone. advise them - it'll take a heck of a lot of work instead.

[Eric Xanthu]

I think all the threads about oddball builds (lately) have been pretty clear in the feedback saying "this will work, it won't be strong, but go have fun with it and tell us how it goes." Certainly we should be very upfront about the "go have fun with it part," but like others have said, getting feedback to improve the build is what the thread is usually about.

[Head Jumper]

I am little busy right now, so i've just read a first post. (i will read others when i get some time:embarassed: ) Anyways, i got horny about writing a guide, and i am kinda working on it :shhh: as it seems, it's a waste of time..

Can someone do me a favor of posting experience whilst using sacrifice as a attack? (killing blow 'bug') and if someone played sacrifice - based pally, post your overall opinion of it..

[Lompo]

I'm actually building a TeslaFroster: 1-3 Zeal (the minimum to get 5 Attack/s); max HF/HS + 1-5 points in HShield; max RL, 10 to Salvation and RC. The build is done around lvl 80, extra skill points to RC You rely mostly on elemental dmg + CB for End act bosses.
He will use Crescent moon as main weapon (HS), and Nord with HF on switch (or Heaven's) and Heaven's for end bosses.

[Luca Rescigno]

I think it's hard to tell a lot of the times what someone is really asking. It depends on the person a lot of the times, and how they ask it, and a hundred other little factors that aren't obvious straight off but which you take into account anyway when you respond to the question.

It's reasonable to tell someone that such and such skill is really weak. Like earlier today, someone asked if a summon Druid with Grizzly and Spirit of Barbs would be viable, and I couldn't not point out that SoB is really, really underpowered, and that even a high level Thorns aura takes a long time to kill monsters. Then, other people with more experience than me explained how they could incorporate damage return into their summon Druid build more effectively using a Thorns merc and Oak Sage. So it stuck to the original spirit of the build while improving its viability. I'd say that thread is a perfect example of what to do when someone asks.

[crazy_bear]

Thank you Cormallon! One of the things that makes the SPF great is the encouragement of people to use different things to make the game enjoyable. :thumbsup:

I agree that it is worth telling people about potential problems with their build, but at the same time we could be constructive about it, and make helpful suggesstions that fit their theme rather than... "maybe you should try blizzard with meteor..."

I would hate to see the SPF get the the BNet mentality. (Just use 'nigma, shako, anni, torch, etc and all will be good!)

[Hector]

I support and believe the unusual builds really add to the fun. While I do love trying cookie-cutters to feel their power, it is always nice to go back to an unusual build and deal with its handicaps. :)

My favorite way of doing this is trying to melee with characters who are primarily casters (sorc and necro) or way more proficient as a ranger (amazon).

Favorite Builds:
Amazon: Spearazon (Fend is awesome), or Tankazon with a huge 2-hander (IK Maul works!).
Necro: melee Scythe-based.
Sorceress: ANY melee!!!!

As for items one of my favorites ever has to be the Passion Runeword on any of the builds above (Zeal and Berserk oskills, very nice on Phase Blades).

[Uzziah]

. . . whatever could make me laugh. Well, there would be one thing, seeing a 99 character getting killed by a Flayer

I got killed by a catapult the other day Oops :wink2:

I really appreciate this thread, The SPF drew me here do to the unusual builds. Heck I have played many non-standard builds. Let me list a few:

Passive Barb
Magi Barb (firewall barb)
Mojomancer
Masteries sorc
Ranged Enchantress
Dual elemental druid

I think I am one of a very few people who have maxed out increased stamina on a barb.

[AJK]

I think I am one of a very few people who have maxed out increased stamina on a barb.
Don't worry, that's perfectly normal*. Just stay there and don't move, OK?

*calls looney patrol*

I myself like to play builds that some may consider overpowered, as long as it's not an auto-play character. The oddest build I've played is a max-defense elemental conviction zealot, and by the standards set by some of the explorers of far weirder builds, that one is almost a cookie-cutter. Shooting your char in the foot (head?) by going for an extreme build generally leads to awesome pat/mat/guardian(??!) threads, but that's not really my style.

*:I've got a build in hell that maxed inner sight.

[inSTAALed]

I love unusual builds.

It's the only reason I play SP... well besides the tournaments and the collective intelligence of every player on B.net.

[silospen]

You guys need to check out Lothrics builds. Here's a few of his 59 that I could dig up:

Daggerzon, Jacqueline, Lothric
Fire Trapper, Sekmet, Lothric
Firewall/Warcry Magebarb, Ishum, Lothric
Armageddon Bear, Hephaestus, Lothric
Fire Elemental, Horus, Lothric
Hungry Bear, Sioux, Lothric
Fury/Geddon, Ninurta, Lothric
Fire Claws/Rabies, Silver_Fang, Lothric
Skeletal Mage/Thrower, Sutekh, Lothric
Fire Ranger, Thraun, Lothric
Storm Ranger, William, Lothric
Martyr, Michael, Lothric
Holy Fire Zealot, Vulcan, Lothric
Battlemage, Selene, Lothric
Throw sorc, Magistra, Lothric
Vengeance Sorc, Morrigan, Lothric

[Rokotsu]

I like this idea of new things because is a new challenge and it bring fun to the game so Im going to try to make some unusual builds.

[pancakeman]

I like the unusual build every now and then, but I sometimes get bored with the game so I love having my Zealot to butcher things with.

And I definitely agree, we should encourage newer people to try weird things. If someone says : Can I make a Zealot around the weapon _____, I say go for it! However, this doesn't me we should instill false hope, for example telling them that a Wirtadin will easily solo Hell Baal. Then again, I think they know what they are getting into, most of the time.

[Elfie]

a very good idea. maybe there will be more attention to non-cookie-cutter builds. Personally I have 2 not very ordinary Mats - Enchant/Blizz sorc with Demonmachine and Dragon Claw/Tigerstrike assasin. The last one had a lot of comments with doubts in her effectiveness... I tried to make a light trapper, but I just got bored with her.:azn:

Now I'm working on full light Nova sorc with Insight. She's a fun. Hope, soon you'll see her as a Mat:smiley:

[Uzziah]

Firewall/Warcry Magebarb, Ishum, Lothric


Mind sharing where this thread is located?

My Magi Barb build was created in apr 2005 so I was wondering when Lothric built his.

[sirpoopsalot]

Can someone do me a favor of posting experience whilst using sacrifice as a attack? (killing blow 'bug') and if someone played sacrifice - based pally, post your overall opinion of it..

Martyrs pop up from time to time. Someone here in the SPF had a nice Patriarch writeup, but I'm not finding it in my search. Here's one from the Pally forum that isn't too bad (a little BNet-ish on the equipment though, and the formatting is p*ss-poor). I think you'll really, really need Life Leech.

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=563174&highlight=martyr

[muzzz]

However, I think we shouldn't be so supportive on this forum that we don't make the gentle point that the suggested character might.... struggle.... when it gets to higher difficulties. Its useful to say that whilst a fine idea, the character would struggle to do enough damage to complete the game. This isn't to put them off making an unusual/underpowered build, but that they do it with their eyes open as it is disappointing to say the least to get to Hell and find out your character no longer has the power to kill things and you don't have the patience/desire to crawl through hell at a snails pace.

My thoughts exactly. Which is why I think yiuman deserves a cookie for the kind of advice he gave me here (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=567993). :smiley:

For those that don't want to follow the linky: he commented on my ideas, and gave some advice on how to make them work. But he also provided me with another idea which might work better.

All of that together was exactly what I was looking for. And it's one of the reasons I prefer the SPF over most other dii.net forums.

[Hrus]

Martyrs pop up from time to time. Someone here in the SPF had a nice Patriarch writeup, but I'm not finding it in my search.
I think you are referring to my pat Mart (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=423284).

[yiuman]

My thoughts exactly. Which is why I think yiuman deserves a cookie for the kind of advice he gave me here (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=567993). :smiley:


Thanks for the kind words. I only post when I think that I have something useful to say. You might notice from my thread count that its a little on the low side for how long I've been registered.

On a different note, that thread has got me thinking about making a 'geddon bear myself.

[SSoG]

*:I've got a build in hell that maxed inner sight.

All of my melee Amazons max Inner Sight. At high levels, it's more effective than Penetrate, and it also helps out your merc and partymates. The only really good argument against it is its low range, which makes it practically useless to bowies.

Anyway, as someone who makes a fair bit of ugly builds himself, I am very supportive when someone talks about a really off-the-wall build, even something that's generally underpowered, as long as it's a *VIABLE* and *SENSIBLE* build. For instance, if you build it right, a Holy Freeze Ranger might be very difficult and suboptimal, but it's still viable, and the basic idea behind it makes sense. A Sanctuary Ranger, on the other hand, simply isn't viable without some pretty extreme hoop-jumping. Meanwhile, a Frenzy/Whirlwind hybrid doesn't make much sense- one attack will become superior to the other, and you'll wind up using that attack 95% of the time with no logical reason to switch to the other. There really aren't any situations where Whirlwind shines and Frenzy doesn't, or where Frenzy shines and Whirlwind doesn't (as opposed to, say, Frenzy/Berserk, where Berserk fills the role of PI/IM solution).

When faced with what I deem to be a "non-viable and/or nonsensical build", I try to use a 3-step approach.

Step #1- Brutal honesty.
I start by trying to give a very realistic assessment of where this build is going to struggle... and most importantly, exactly *WHY* it will struggle at those points. Will it lack crowd control? Will it lack an immunity solution? Does it have no way to deal with IM? Does it prominently feature two attacks that are totally redundant (such as Double Swing + Frenzy) or two attacks that don't have logical situational uses (such as Whirlwind + Frenzy)? Or will it simply be so lacking in offense that simply beating Hell difficulty will be an extreme test of patience?

Step #2- Suggesting easier alternatives.
This is where I try to suggest similar builds that will hopefully maintain the general playstyle of the original build, but which won't face as many difficulties. For instance, if someone wants to build an Impaleazon, I might suggest a good Jabazon or Tankazon build instead. If someone wants to build a Double Swing/Leap Attack hybrid, I might suggest dropping the hybrid and just going Double Swing or Leap Attack.

Step #3- Optimization.
If the person is set on making their build anyway, I make suggestions to make it as good as humanly possible, and then I offer words of encouragement and emphasize that I very much hope that the person proves me wrong. This step is very big- while I believe firmly in ugly builds, I do not believe in making un-optimized builds. Once you decide what your idea of fun is, I firmly believe in creating the best character possible that conforms to that idea.

[Cormallon]

I'm quite pleased, the spirit seems still strong in the SPF :thumbsup:

There were a lot of good comments and suggestions, I hope these will make their way into toe regular build thread.

Of course we should point out where a specific idea will fail, and why. It's sometimes difficult to draw a line between 'underpowered' and 'not working at all' though.



I think it's hard to tell a lot of the times what someone is really asking. It depends on the person a lot of the times, and how they ask it, and a hundred other little factors that aren't obvious straight off but which you take into account anyway when you respond to the question.


Indeed. If in doubt, we should ask what he really wants, instead of just assuming something (most often the responses tend to well known power builds / easy builds).

And even more, when asking a question about builds, we all should state more clearly what we want, and what is already decided and what is open for discussion.

[Heskla]

I just got the idea of a Inferno-sorc for cows... ..until Zarfen told me that skilled is bugged crap. To bad. 22 Yards radius frying pan would have been scary for some bovines...

I'm a big supporter of strange builds, but I don't have the time to build them..

[stephan]

Of course we should point out where a specific idea will fail, and why. It's sometimes difficult to draw a line between 'underpowered' and 'not working at all' though.
What I think is more is important (as mentioned before) is making the distinction with between 'underpowered' and 'unusual'. A blizzballer neglecting the fire tree in favor of ES is something else than a 2 handed enchantress.

[Heskla]

What I think is more is important (as mentioned before) is making the distinction with between 'underpowered' and 'unusual'. A blizzballer neglecting the fire tree in favor of ES is something else than a 2 handed enchantress.

True, true.

The funny part and for me also the motivation is to take the char that at the first glance looks underpowered and is unusual, to actually do some serious progress in the game. It's all about stylishness, even if it isn't a 2 handad enchantress. Even a FO/Fire Wall/SF - sorc is stylish in my eyes...

[maxicek]

As most of us have ever enlarging ATMA stashes, having the 'optimum' equipment is not normally an issue.

For me, it is the marriage of skills and equipment that make the build. Un-orthodox skill plans are the more obvious departure from the norm. But if you look carefully at the equipment you have, careful selection can make for some interesting builds even with standard skill plans. Nightfish patted his WW barb with dual Fleshrippers. Clearly not conventional.

I like more unusual builds. I have played in a few MP games and it is always nice to get the "what build is that?" questions. I'd like to see a few more innovative Pat / Mat threads, they are always a good read.

Everyone still needs a Hammerdin. After all we all know cheese is bad for you, but it does taste good :grin:

[muzzz]

For me, it is the marriage of skills and equipment that make the build.

QFT. Skills are indeed usually a good start if you're looking for an interesting build. But some of the most interesting things I've seen come from people who take an item and decide to build something, anything, around it.

That last bit also touches on one of the reasons why I don't do the RWM. Conviction stick? No friggin' way...

[Atil]

But some of the most interesting things I've seen come from people who take an item and decide to build something, anything, around it.

The only four characters I've ever taken to Pat/Mat have been built around Sets, two low level, one high level and one in-between (along the same vein as Cormallon's Set Sept :thumbsup:). To me, half of the fun is trying to get the most out of an underpowered build. The only character with a high level set (Trang-Oul's) was not as much fun as the game was a bit too easy. (Good Pindle runner though.)

[Head Jumper]

Martyrs pop up from time to time. Someone here in the SPF had a nice Patriarch writeup, but I'm not finding it in my search. Here's one from the Pally forum that isn't too bad (a little BNet-ish on the equipment though, and the formatting is p*ss-poor). I think you'll really, really need Life Leech.

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=563174&highlight=martyr

Thanks alot! I was asure that my post has been dumped:largesad:

But this killed my motivation :astonished:

Martyr advantage:
He doesn't have any.... :wink3:
OK, maybe that you don't need mana and you can laugh to those mana burn bosses.
And maxed Redemption is cool and useful.
nvm, i will try to at least get a martyr pat..

[pancakeman]

I couldn't agree more with SSoG. There is a huge difference between suggesting an item or skill that will help, and saying "You would be better with a hammerdin".
When I did my build, I got some good support, though not to much of it.

[NeoKnuckles]

A freeze / shock zealot IS possible, why suggest dumping freeze altogether and use HF merc instead? Look through the last couple of pages and you'll find many more examples.



As someone that made the freeze/shock zealot topic recently, I must chime in with my thoughts.

I of course see a lot of what you're talking about (not so much in my thread, but in some other ones). The "oh, so-and-so is better, this build would be better if you replaced so-and-so with that." And they'll explain their reasoning.

I don't see this as discouraging at all. I see it as very helpful. You're having experienced players outline EXACTLY why your build is unpopular in favour of the more cookie cutter builds. I think in order to make your build better, you need to see why exactly it sucks.

Anyway, more specific to the shock/freeze thread, I found all the comments in there very helpful. I'm not a regular here, I lurk here and there, but I've yet to see anything bad happen at these boards. It's been all positive, and all of the feedback has been very constructive and informative. I think the SPF is already doing what you're requesting: Taking absolute crap and trying to turn it into something

And this isn't even the first time I've asked for help about non cookie cutter builds. I've asked several times before, and every time there's been good suggestions

[Butzull]

I'm all for supporting unusual builds, but the person who posts the thread can contribute by saying something like:

tell me how I can improve this, period.
tell me how I can improve this while still using (skill/item/theme)
etc.

All it takes is a bit of clarity, and if people start replying different to what you are after, a simple polite follow-up explanation post should help!

Butz. :dunce:

[Heskla]

I'm all for supporting unusual builds, but the person who posts the thread can contribute by saying something like:

tell me how I can improve this, period.
tell me how I can improve this while still using (skill/item/theme)
etc.

All it takes is a bit of clarity, and if people start replying different to what you are after, a simple polite follow-up explanation post should help!
Butz. :dunce:

I agree with that.