Best overall 4v4 team?

[MysticDragon]

Place your vote. I think it's BvC, Windy, Boner, Trapper or BvC, Windy, Boner, Bowazon. I would like to hear your opinions.

I think I just made a mistake... Ollie could you edit this to make a poll with the following options?

BvC, Windy, Boner, Trapper
BvC, Windy, Boner, Bowazon
Hammerdin, Windy, Boner, Bowazon
Hammerdin, Windy, Boner, Trapper
BvC, Hammerdin, Windy, Boner
Bowazon, Boner, BvC, Hammerdin
Templar, Fissure Druid, FB Sorc, Poison Necro :P
Other

[akumaxxyz]

4x liberator

[LtSinborn]

Trapper, Windy, BvC, and Necro = best overall team

Amazon pk sucks. Camp team sucks. People who play on camp teams suck.

[akumaxxyz]

lol 4x traper would kill the above easily

[yelopen]

lol 4x traper would kill the above easily

No team of all one type of ELEMENTAL damage could be the best.

Trapper, Windy, BvC, and Necro

This has Lightning damage, Physical damage, Open Wounds, Magic damage, and Cold damage.

There can't be many characters that can balance well against all those. If you wear sorb/stack/50DR, there is still Magic damage and Open Wounds.

[stuslegend]

BvC, Windy, Boner, Bowazon
is the best overall team ive seen

or switch the barb to a hammerdin

hammer /or/ barb(leap) to protect zon
druid/nec(amp) to spam attacks

[LtSinborn]

all randoms imo~
pk with someone who can namelock
#1's die hard

*waits for verbal pk*

[akumaxxyz]

ow hardly does anything in team duels, team duel is all about who can dish out the most damage fast. if you sorb ele chars you might as well not mention any in team duels.

[inanefedaykin]

Hammerdin, BvC, windy and bone nec
I think everyone could agree that pure magic damage is pretty GG and no amount of DR will save you against amp damage.

[Xombie]

Nec, BvC, Dru, Sin

any other option is wrong since it's asking for "best"

nec - amp / spirit spam / damage
BvC - BO / damage / leap
Dru - damage / oak
sin - mind blast / traps split up opponents / force Lo's

[HappyAssassin]

Boner/BvC/Druid/Trapper is right imo, though where is the pro WWsin with prebuff claws? j/k :P

Post first, vote second, polls are still messy.

[Moritz]

I think every team should have either a trapper or a bowzon because those are pretty much the only chars that can really split up a defensive team and force them to move, which often causes mistakes and gives space for offensive actions.
(Sure, boners and FBers etc can snipe as well, but their projectiles are more or less easily to dodge, which is not true for a 10 times firing trap or GA/multi spamming).



My personal favorite is Boner/BvC/Druid/Trapper, as well.
With amp, bvc and druid can dish out hilarious amounts of damage, trapper splits the opponent team, boner amps and snipes and occasionally chainlocks split up opponents or so.
BO and oak grant huge life as well.

[Ouallada]

Agreed. Boner/BvC/Windy/Trapper, although a physical ww/trap hybrid could replace the trapper. The druid or bonr can also be replaced by a hammerdin or mage. Conc for barbs and convic for trappers.

If a bowa can be protected well, the bowa can take the place of the druid.

[Xombie]

Just kidding guys. False alarm.

I'm feeling the 2nd to last option.

[Camden]

4x liberator

VOUCH, this kid definitely knows what he's talking about.

[Bargnani]

auradin, light, fire, cold sorc, cant sorb/max res them all

[SicHalo]

Trapper, Windy, BvC, and Necro = best overall team

Amazon pk sucks. Camp team sucks. People who play on camp teams suck.

i guess u dont tvt much an ama is a very strongg team vs team, equip an necs amp + hammer tanking and aura of hammer and a BvC bo etc is possibly one of the toughest teams. As with a hammer tanking and ur amped and u have gas or multi spaming at high dmg ur not going to last long...


Hammerdin, BvC, windy and bone nec works very well as u have windy tankign and doing alot of dmg/ nec amping and bvc leaping plus cleaning up badly hurt/ amped chars.


or as mentioned windy/ Hammerdin+ BvC+ Nec +Sin as is tough.

[MpLiciT]

well, depends how you like to play, if you like offensive and you know your better skilled then the other team id go
bvc
din
druid
nec

nec amps, huge bo+oak, din gives conc for big bvc dmg, and with amp'd nados druid rapes everything :).

second choice would be for defensive/camper type people.
Druid
Nec
Zon
Barb.
nec amps, barb leaps so zon cant get raped while spamming ga,and druid has amp'd nados and rocks.

[Gandolph]

Wouldn't it depend on the team you are facing? I mean if you read any of the PvP guides they offer strategies against the other classes and some are better than others. Classic battle strategy would be to have archers/artillery backing up the infantry. It's interesting that the Sorc only appears in one of the choices and it's an FB sorc. Gear choice would most certainly impact the outcome. The game has been out so long that everyone is an expert at every class and I'd guess that a skilled team of 4 werewolves could do as well as any other team because they would have developed their tactics according to their strengths and weaknesses.

Given the choices above, I'd go with Bowazon, Boner, BvC, Hammerdin. Although a Trapper could be subbed if the opposing team isn't stacked lit res.

[GreatZeal]

I say Hdin,Fb sorc,BvC, and trap sin.

[HappyAssassin]

i guess u dont tvt much an ama is a very strongg team vs team, equip an necs amp + hammer tanking and aura of hammer and a BvC bo etc is possibly one of the toughest teams. As with a hammer tanking and ur amped and u have gas or multi spaming at high dmg ur not going to last long..

Lol no, he tvts constantly. What he (and me btw) are saying is that most of the time a good mobile team will beat a bowazon based team. It's been demo'd again and again. It's not the bowazon's fault either btw, west has some very good bow users who know how to play teams, but ultimately they can't teleport and it gets abused.

Hammerdin is not an effective guard for a bow if the other team has a trapper (or even a WWsin).

[ShazamLies]

GM - Auradin + FB Sorc + Poison Nec + Trapper

All the chars can hit from off screen except the poison nec. Auradin desync charge/smite kills strays and keeps convic up. Poison Nec lower res, and if chased can hit multiple chars to 1 life. FB sorc spam has long range and with - res running does good damage (also one of the longest lasting solo builds if built with ES). Trapper provides light damage and mb support. Passive aggresive team, they have to be chased down which means running into fbs + traps + poison novas.

BM - Necro, BvC, Hammerdin, (insert windy/smiter charger here)

Summon stacking Necro + potting BvC = great chasers because they have so much life. Potting hdin means hammer fields that won't ever really go away. All chars in this team do enough damage to crush someone in enough hits that they can't pot/escape in time. (a smiter/charger with amp on team is surprisingly effective, too much happening on screen to always be watching out for a desyncher, esp. when everyone tries to lock down the hdin or nec)

Smiters in tvt do well in West lad also because many casters choose to put on spirit shields. O_o

[inanefedaykin]

Spirit just means they have enough str to put on a SS :p

[ShazamLies]

Spirit just means they have enough str to put on a SS :p

SS means less fhr + fcr + skills etc. Meaning the more the gear towards defeating the BvC or windy/smiter, the less well-geared they are for facing the nec and hdin.

[inanefedaykin]

Oh yes, we're talking about team dueling. IGNORE ME!

[tSDt]

Truthfully its hard to beat a Hammerdin.

My ideal team would be this:

Trapper = MB / Damage

- Able to take down bowzon's, other non-sorbing mainly melee characters due to MB

BvC = BO / Damage / Leap

- Leap would take down a minion stack down fast ( for druid's to destroy Oak), then WW through them.

Hammerdin = Damage / Aura / Main Character

- Can easily tank damage, and can give a lot of damage. When using concentration this boosts the BvC's damage.

ES Light Sorc = Damage / Aura / Can tank quite a bit of damage

- With conviction the Trappers damage will increase amazingly while the Sorc's damage will be very high also. This will eliminate some sorbing from other melee characters.

I don't know if adding in the Sorc was a good idea, but it seemed okay. Tell me why this wouldn't work if it doesn't.

[SicHalo]

Lol no, he tvts constantly. What he (and me btw) are saying is that most of the time a good mobile team will beat a bowazon based team. It's been demo'd again and again. It's not the bowazon's fault either btw, west has some very good bow users who know how to play teams, but ultimately they can't teleport and it gets abused.

Hammerdin is not an effective guard for a bow if the other team has a trapper (or even a WWsin).

funny enough i was think the same on that as well however the scenario i assumed is everyone is amped by nec and with gas etc pumped out and multi with kb it puts alot of strain on any char to get close enough as u got to remember multi spams over 2 screens.

Saying this i had experience with this today i have a built dex zon okay a windy was tanking instead of hammer but a nec was laying amp while i multi ppl to death and there was an assa but it could never get close enough to lay traps due to dmg etc. Although i suppose a ww//trapper may be even more suited as u can simply mb both chars and take ama out, ww sins block edge i.e block hammer etc.

Also i thought about a suicidal char to take out a bow ama i.e a charger based char like a smiter with good desync skill + suprise it can cause a nightmare.

The reason i would not bet on a trapper is abs based chars a few ppl slap on tg it can cause a prob, however if its more caster based then i would cuz mb etc for stun or if its a ww/trapper etc wof + mb etc to lock up caster based chars

spirit also means no block and dr which = fast ko to a charging smiter or ww barb or any mele dmg

[ShazamLies]

Truthfully its hard to beat a Hammerdin.

My ideal team would be this:

Trapper = MB / Damage

- Able to take down bowzon's, other non-sorbing mainly melee characters due to MB

BvC = BO / Damage / Leap

- Leap would take down a minion stack down fast ( for druid's to destroy Oak), then WW through them.

Hammerdin = Damage / Aura / Main Character

- Can easily tank damage, and can give a lot of damage. When using concentration this boosts the BvC's damage.

ES Light Sorc = Damage / Aura / Can tank quite a bit of damage

- With conviction the Trappers damage will increase amazingly while the Sorc's damage will be very high also. This will eliminate some sorbing from other melee characters.

I don't know if adding in the Sorc was a good idea, but it seemed okay. Tell me why this wouldn't work if it doesn't.


ES light sorcs are nice but with Infinity they will be punished for going no block. (Bowas/chargers/bvc will take them apart). If you use a char for aura support, you have to make sure it can survive, and even with ES, these sorcs are relatively fragile. Concentration doesn't add as much damage to the bvc as a lvl 1 amp will. The only far range attack would be the trapper, and it won't do very much damage w/o the sorc having to expose herself.

[Xombie]

No amp = you decrease the effectiveness of your BvC and Druid by alot.

You must have amp.

[SicHalo]

@ ShazamLie i do not rate auradins at all especially in tvt all u do is charge with an aura...

However i see some logic to ur team but for it to work for me is to have all different types of elements as the auradin has conviction say a fire auradin for more range, then a cold sorc and a trapper 3 elements are hard to beat.

but then again 1 char alone can ripp all of these chars, a well played/ built hammerdin and possibly windy due to hammerdins stack abilities could pretty much make the aura look like nothing windy has natural protection from this however trapper is the only real weakness.

Psn necs are a liability as it has to get relatively close to land a nova vs a well stacked hammerdin or windy..

Bottom line i know u said gm duel but i beileve gm duel a hammerdin can still tank all 3 elements depending on gear etc to kill this team i would bring a windy + hammer

[ShazamLies]

@ ShazamLie i do not rate auradins at all especially in tvt all u do is charge with an aura...

However i see some logic to ur team but for it to work for me is to have all different types of elements as the auradin has conviction say a fire auradin for more range, then a cold sorc and a trapper 3 elements are hard to beat.

but then again 1 char alone can ripp all of these chars, a well played/ built hammerdin and possibly windy due to hammerdins stack abilities could pretty much make the aura look like nothing windy has natural protection from this however trapper is the only real weakness.

Psn necs are a liability as it has to get relatively close to land a nova vs a well stacked hammerdin or windy..

Bottom line i know u said gm duel but i beileve gm duel a hammerdin can still tank all 3 elements depending on gear etc to kill this team i would bring a windy + hammer

MMmm, auradins are good tvt because they kill druid summons, bowzons, and hit lots of characters at once (i know the damage is pidly). But with a grief they can also smite/charge alright. The conviction is beyond helpful, but the range is short, but auradins are good sources of conviction because they don't have to stop very often, meaning they don't get caught often, as opposed to infinity sorcs or foh'ers.

Psn nec's actually can be great damage dealers, their nova range is huge, they only have to spam it once every 2 seconds meaning they can be in and out better than other chars.

I can see how a hammerdin team has a fair chance to tank this team, but windies < trappers. But still, to effectively tank this team, you need to counteract 150 conviction + 60ish lr = 210 stack on top of facet'd gear. And even if you do manage to 210+ stack, and get enough poison length reduction gear to counteract the double poison duration in hell, you will severely hamper your characters. With the 85% max stack and one abs rules, an fb sorc will still do some serious damage. They are one of the chars that can do decently 1v4 because of fast cast rate + huge tanking options + spam.

I like this team because there are no real "positions" everyone can play everywhere. The auradin just has to be near the other team to get pulse damage + conviction + random charges. Poison nec just tele's away and leavs a nova here and there, (my friends nec has hit all 4 opposing chars in one nova before, ofc he died but they got screwed up lol). Its basically guerilla warfare because this team has the advantage in range as opposed to teams who depend on windies/bvc/hammers. Trying to chase a high damage, fast defensive team is annoying like crazy. And camping teams get owned by pulse + fb spam + traps

[tSDt]

But what happens if the auradin gets killed first?

And for a psn nec, a hammerdin wielding Cleansing reduces the psn by 75% length.

[inanefedaykin]

So, I think we're all agreed that Windy + BvC + Boner is staple. The disagreements seem to revolve around the 4th char.

[MysticDragon]

Isn't a Trapper open prey while MB someone else?

[tinncann25]

Bowazon, Boner, BvC, Hammerdin

Bowazon - arrow spam is more powerful
Boner - amp/dec/damage
BvC- bo/leap/damage
Hammerdin - protects zon/damage/auras/awesome 1v1

Duel starts with bowazon spamming, while boner amps. BvC leaps and hammerdin charges around bowazon. After players are amped Boner puts pressure on the players, while bowazon snipes away with invis arrows. When players die, all four characters can hold their own in a 1v1 match with no major weaknesses.

This combination provides the ultimate team skills like amp/bo/auras, while maintains high damage and high survivability.

Edit: definitely posted before I read the whole thread

but truthfully

the best set up

Trapper
Javazon
Foh
Hammerdin

cant go wrong there =P

[tSDt]

Replace Javazon with a BvC or Druid. Since BvC can gain more from conc with BO and such. Or Druid for tank and life.

But yeah. Never though about Foh, but it would definetly be a great team with a Trapper.

[SicHalo]

Isn't a Trapper open prey while MB someone else?

yes it is tri whirl or charge

and @ tinncann25 yes it can go wrong u have 3 chars based on one element and like i was explaining to ShazamLies it is possible that a hammerdin and a smiter based on the same team can pull in like max 6xx% res for the hammerdin and 5xx% res for a smiter if well decked out and some well built hammerdins consist of inventrys of 20/5 all res scs same for smiters that are caster killers.

The hammerdin provides the dmg aura smite still hits a bp with pb and the smiter provides salvation...

[tinncann25]

Replace Javazon with a BvC or Druid. Since BvC can gain more from conc with BO and such. Or Druid for tank and life.

But yeah. Never though about Foh, but it would definetly be a great team with a Trapper.

against a bowzon minded team, a Javazon's light fury is pretty beast.

Ur prolly right, but im extremely biased haha



and @ tinncann25 yes it can go wrong u have 3 chars based on one element and like i was explaining to ShazamLies it is possible that a hammerdin and a smiter based on the same team can pull in like max 6xx% res for the hammerdin and 5xx% res for a smiter if well decked out and some well built hammerdins consist of inventrys of 20/5 all res scs same for smiters that are caster killers.

The hammerdin provides the dmg aura smite still hits a bp with pb and the smiter provides salvation...

The hammerdin on our team would take care of that. Again i kno that list wasnt good haha I was just putting something out there, like a joke? =P

[SicHalo]

against a bowzon minded team, a Javazon's light fury is pretty beast.

Ur prolly right, but im extremely biased haha



The hammerdin on our team would take care of that. Again i kno that list wasnt good haha I was just putting something out there, like a joke? =P


ooh ok ^^ but hammer vs hammer is luck plus whos to say there is not a windy ^^? or even a bvc capable to stack and still beat a hammer.

[tinncann25]

ooh ok ^^ but hammer vs hammer is luck plus whos to say there is not a windy ^^? or even a bvc capable to stack and still beat a hammer.

a windy and a bvc stacking 6xx resists?....

I can still take out the cyclone armor on the windy right?

[SicHalo]

a windy and a bvc stacking 6xx resists?....

I can still take out the cyclone armor on the windy right?

no i mean they can simply fall back however cyclone armour is recastable giving some kinda tanking and the barb is used for leap meaning the only effective dmg is the aura which can be easily stacked.. ?+ if the smiter is using salvation on the party that is more effective stacking..

[tinncann25]

no i mean they can simply fall back however cyclone armour is recastable giving some kinda tanking and the barb is used for leap meaning the only effective dmg is the aura which can be easily stacked.. ?+ if the smiter is using salvation on the party that is more effective stacking..

I guess if i was facing 4 completely stacked players...maybe ill lose haha

but other than that in a normal game if we are only talking about a hammerdin and maybe just one aura, the team doesnt sound all too bad.

[SicHalo]

I guess if i was facing 4 completely stacked players...maybe ill lose haha

but other than that in a normal game if we are only talking about a hammerdin and maybe just one aura, the team doesnt sound all too bad.


yeah if it a 1 vs 4 situation yes u have a chance again it depends on how well built the hammerdin is + skill it maybe able to take down 3 of those chars but with a hammerdin vs hammerdin it can go 50/50 depending on no mistakes etc.

cuz hammerdin strong points is the ability to tank almost all types of dmg while retaining high life/fhr/and dmg even somee dr.

[LtSinborn]

your all trash

game for 1v7 please

[Uncle_Mike]

your all trash

game for 1v7 please

:rolleyes:
such comments are not welcome honestly...read the rules please in case I've failed to get the joke...

[LtSinborn]

it was actually an intellectual conundrum about a rabbi and a black guy walking into a bar... :grin:

[stuslegend]

Nec, BvC, Dru, Sin

any other option is wrong since it's asking for "best"

nec - amp / spirit spam / damage
BvC - BO / damage / leap
Dru - damage / oak
sin - mind blast / traps split up opponents / force Lo's


a trapper does force Lo's thats true... but a bowzon ****s up anyone without max block and forces them to play defensive

your all trash

game for 1v7 please

you must be from the "other" forum.....:rolleyes:

[Uncle_Mike]

it was actually an intellectual conundrum about a rabbi and a black guy walking into a bar... :grin:

I hoped that would be the case :wink3:

[marcello]

I hoped that would be the case :wink3:

Best 4v4 team is you,me,rabbitz and elmek :kiss:

[Ce Olba]

I voted for BvC, Windy, Hammerdin and Boner. Yes, all of the parts are quite necessary and they power each other up. Let's see:

BvC
+Provides additional Life, Mana and Defense
+Provides Leap
+Provides a lvl 24 Holy Freeze
+Can stand alone versus most characters

Windy
+Provides tremendous additional Life
+Provides you with a close-range caster offense
+Can stand alone versus most characters

Hammerdin
+Provides you with Concentration (multiplies the BvCs damage)
+Provides you with other Auras, such as Meditation
+Provides you with a short-range magical damage offense
+Provides you with an almost immortal defense via Blessed Hammer
+Can stand alone versus most characters

Boner
+Provides you with Amplify Damage and Decrepify (both multiplying the effectiveness of both the Windy and the BvC)
+Provides you with Bone Wall
+Provides you with possible summones
+Provides you with a long-range magical offense
+Provides you with the perfect defense versus melee's via Iron Maiden
+Provides the BvC with Life Tap

See? Yes, this team has little ranged offense but it's defenses are top-notch: the members have extremely high life, defense against all close-range attackers, the capability of stunning anything and everything when they get on the screen and an extremely good ranged offense.

[Jerametrius]

hammer (conc aura, can defend zon against melee)
bvc (leap + bo, conc and amp from necro result in huge damage)
necro (amp and magic damage)
bowazon (key to the team... massive damage from conc and amp, stunned targets from the barbs leap, protection from melee from the hammer)

[Ce Olba]

bowazon (key to the team... massive damage from conc and amp, stunned targets from the barbs leap, protection from melee from the hammer)

And that is exactly where your flaw lies. As long as your Bowazon can be killed via ranged attacks, your team is fishfood. And believe me, that is easily done.

Not to mention that your Bowazon is extremely vulnerable versus Leap + dual Dooms as it results in a pro-longed D/A/E animation or knockback or stun. Now, not only that, but Leap will also separate the bowazon from the Hammerdin, making the bowazon vulnerable to close-range attacks. At this point, the only problems are the BvC and the Bonemancer. I believe the Bonemancer can be easily taken down with a Windy and the BvC is toast against a good Bonemancer. With that, you are down to Hammerdin + Bowazon. Wanna bet who's going to win in a face-to-face tanking, a max block 50% PDR bonemancer or a bowazon?

Of course, that's in theory only, as it would require extremely high luck and planning for something like that to happen countless times over and over again.

However, I'll say that the bowazon team is quite equal to the bvc/windy/bonemancer/hammerdin team in terms of defense. So, it comes down to offense. Which can, as I already pointed out, be shattered with a careful plan.

And surely as hell I'm willing to bet that duels between a bowazon/bonemancer/bvc/hammerdin team and a bonemancer/bvc/hammerdin/windy team would be interesting as hell.

[HappyAssassin]

I still maintain the trapper is necessary, the opening it creates with traplock are too good to pass up. Most of the kills in 4v4s come from one team member stunning while antoher kills. Windy + Trapper or Amp BvC + Trapper are murder on anyone caught outside the cover of their team.

[Ouallada]

I agree. A trapper is more essential than a bowa and windy at least. Not to mention that a trapper has relatively similar matchups against the classes that a windy is normally used against, being paladins, certain sorc builds, and other sins. Being able to mb and double team for a quick kill is too good an option to pass up. That aside, a trapper has just as many ways to integrate with a team as a windy, giving ranged offense, locking ability as well as compatibility with necros and anything with conviction .

[Gandolph]

I still maintain the trapper is necessary, the opening it creates with traplock are too good to pass up. Most of the kills in 4v4s come from one team member stunning while antoher kills. Windy + Trapper or Amp BvC + Trapper are murder on anyone caught outside the cover of their team.

Well of course YOU would say that :rolleyes: Where's Kiba to declare that the Windy is the key to the whole team?

[inanefedaykin]

Nah, I'm the Wolfen Empire's windy fanatic. It's true though, the windy does all the damage and tanks all the hits. Where would any of these teams be without their level 40 oak sages?

[Kiba]

Werewolf , Werewolf , Werewolf & a Werewolf.


Death upon any opposing team by mass amount of flea infestation.

[Gandolph]

I disagree Kiba. I'd have one of those be a Wolfbarb so you can add a nice BO to the pack.

[Ce Olba]

I agree. A trapper is more essential than a bowa and windy at least.

It depends on what your team is lacking. A team that consists of a BvC, a Bonemancer and a Hammerdin has very high defense but lacks a bit in the offense. However, the best result is always the one where all team members can stand alone versus most opponents. A Trapper is pretty much toast if facing anything with 85%-95% Lightning Resistances with a ranged attack or massive life.

Not to mention that a trapper has relatively similar matchups against the classes that a windy is normally used against, being paladins, certain sorc builds, and other sins. Being able to mb and double team for a quick kill is too good an option to pass up.

Double-teaming is all fine and dandy, but if you think about it, the average damage of a trapper is quite low. Yes, they do have 10 blasts and 5 traps, but the average damage of a single trap, even at 14 000 damage is a mere 7000, meaning 8925 for the whole load at 85% LR. That's the problem: the reductionable damage and the slow applying of higher amounts of damage. A windy would do ~510 per hit. I know, it's not much, but couple that with Amplify Damage and you are at 1530 per hit. And this is of course assuming 50% PDR to start with.

I'm not saying that trappers are useless or something, they can be a good part of a team, but it almost requires 1v2 situations, which is not good. Imagine a trapper facing a Bonemancer and a BvC 1v2. How will the trapper have a chance of victory when the BvC deals such high damage as 1403 per Grief hit and 529 per Beast hit? Even if they had 4500 life, they would be toast in quite a short time, even more so considering the ~800 damage added to each two whirls from the Bone spears/spirits of a Bonemancer. The first two whirls that connect will alone deal 4135 damage, which I believe is enough to annihilate almost all Assassins.

That aside, a trapper has just as many ways to integrate with a team as a windy, giving ranged offense, locking ability as well as compatibility with necros and anything with conviction .

That's even more problems. You end up depending on Conviction and 1v2 situations. That means, at best, your team would look like BvC/Trapper/Bonemancer/V/T. Which does not look too good. Not that it would such either, just does not compare to some other teams.

Of course, in the end it all comes down to how the team duels. I, for example, would like a team where all the members can stand alone and wreck havoc as a team, ripping apart almost if not everything. I know, TvT's are supposed to be team-based duels, but there will always be a situation where one member of the opposing team will be facing one or more of the members of the opposing team with no other team members left. And if you ignore that fact, you are up for trouble.

[Ouallada]

It depends on what your team is lacking. A team that consists of a BvC, a Bonemancer and a Hammerdin has very high defense but lacks a bit in the offense. However, the best result is always the one where all team members can stand alone versus most opponents. A Trapper is pretty much toast if facing anything with 85%-95% Lightning Resistances with a ranged attack or massive life.

Conversely speaking, a trapper basically forces LOs in the other team. I don't disagree that each member needs to be able to stand up to the other team individually, but am rather suggesting that a trapper is able to mesh extremely well with a wide range of characters, meaning the team as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Double-teaming is all fine and dandy, but if you think about it, the average damage of a trapper is quite low. Yes, they do have 10 blasts and 5 traps, but the average damage of a single trap, even at 14 000 damage is a mere 7000, meaning 8925 for the whole load at 85% LR. That's the problem: the reductionable damage and the slow applying of higher amounts of damage. A windy would do ~510 per hit. I know, it's not much, but couple that with Amplify Damage and you are at 1530 per hit. And this is of course assuming 50% PDR to start with.

In a team that has access to conviction and lower resists, a trapper would be extremely useful, not to mention the ranged offense. Traplocks and mb basically force the other team to use LOs and increase fhr, while even if damage may not be devastating, it would add up with conviction and LR, and locks opponents up for a BVC tri-whirl, a tele hammer or a bone spear/mb/trap lock. A trapper holds its own well enough to stay alive against any class due to claw block, and enables 2v1 situations very well.

Of course, a trapper would not do well 1v2, but the point is that a trapper enables its team to get the 2v1s, meaning there is less of a chance to get into a situation where its team is actually outnumbered. Give and take situation, to be honest.

I would actually have a boner/bvc/mage/trapper. That way, you have a hammerdin and conviction in one, with the concentration overlapping with the bvc, while the trapper sets up killing situations for the rest, and the boner is used for utility spells. Curses, spear lock etc.

In the end, I guess it all comes down to preference and the team's style, but hte argument for a trapper is just as sound as that for a windy, in my opinion. It all boils down to whether or not the team can execute to get ahead in the numbers game.

[HappyAssassin]

Trapper doesn't do well alone? This is news to me. When I duel on the other team from wes (my realm's top trapper), I make a concentrated effort to kill him BEFORE the rest of his team dies. Why? Because if he's left alone he'll just teleport away, dropping 5 stacks of traps and waiting for someone to screw up. Killing him takes forever, and if your team doesnt have two smart caster hunters you might actually lose (what you do is split up so one chases and the other circlets around).

People are discussing 85+ lite res on the other team. What? This is not a common occurence. 85 lite res means tgods, which means no arach or dungos. Most necros, hammerdins, BvCs and windies in tvt duels are very focuses on hitting their FCR bps (gotta be fast to react to your team and theirs), FHR bps (locks are WAY more dangerous in tvt) and DR (because almost everyone is physical based and you might get amped as well). You're either gonna have to give up fcr/dr (which hurts you in general/vs. the rest of the team), or stick Los in your gear. No one uses x4Lo shield in tvt, lets get that outta the way. Either you're blocking or your usng to Spirit to make your life easier. Everyone uses Enigma. Only spot for a Lo (or 2) is in the hat, again where you would probobly put Bers (CoA or Shako) or Shaels (Fcr circlet or Shako) to help you get DR or Bps. Lastly, the best source of conviction for a trapper in tvt is the trapper herself. Good trappers tend to carry an infinity on switch, because they aren't boing themself and they can apply a nice -70 lightres if someone is unfortunate enough to make a bad ww or telestomp in their traps.

I'd like to close (lol) by pointing out that tvt is ALL ABOUT the 2v1. It is not 4 individual matchups going on at once. Certain chars (notably the trapper and the bowa, but the necro too) are going to be targets because of what they do on a team. Setting up the 2v1 advantage (or more) is what gets kills, tvt gets complicated when both teams know how to do that. The trapper isn't really there for dmg (though its nice). My ghostsin, which has base level traps, can be a really effective team dueler, just with her stun. Sure, I WW sometimes, but I spend most of the duel MBing and trapping. The reason people use trappers and not ghostsins for tvt is that trappers hurt they enemy while they do that.

[LtSinborn]

<3 hehehe

i seem to get good fhr frames these days, i can walk any character fairly well

[Ce Olba]

People are discussing 85+ lite res on the other team. What? This is not a common occurence. 85 lite res means tgods, which means no arach or dungos. Most necros, hammerdins, BvCs and windies in tvt duels are very focuses on hitting their FCR bps (gotta be fast to react to your team and theirs), FHR bps (locks are WAY more dangerous in tvt) and DR (because almost everyone is physical based and you might get amped as well). You're either gonna have to give up fcr/dr (which hurts you in general/vs. the rest of the team), or stick Los in your gear. No one uses x4Lo shield in tvt, lets get that outta the way. Either you're blocking or your usng to Spirit to make your life easier. Everyone uses Enigma. Only spot for a Lo (or 2) is in the hat, again where you would probobly put Bers (CoA or Shako) or Shaels (Fcr circlet or Shako) to help you get DR or Bps. Lastly, the best source of conviction for a trapper in tvt is the trapper herself. Good trappers tend to carry an infinity on switch, because they aren't boing themself and they can apply a nice -70 lightres if someone is unfortunate enough to make a bad ww or telestomp in their traps.

Again, you are forgetting something. It all depends on how your team is. For example, a BvC always has 48% FHR with any helm he uses except Kira's. Also, anyone half-assed will not rely on the 15% PDR of Dungo's. Not to mention that Fade makes sure you are not dependant on Dungo.

As for TGod's, you are apparently not thinking straight. You will need a lot more than a simple trapper to, for example, put a BvC out of balance. The 20% FCR can be regained from your rings. Now, that forces you to have a character with high defense, such as a hammerdin or you are screwed. Now, the other team can easily counter-act your wannabe-plan.

It does not come down to gear, it comes down to careful planning and trust between the members of a team.

I'd like to close (lol) by pointing out that tvt is ALL ABOUT the 2v1. It is not 4 individual matchups going on at once. Certain chars (notably the trapper and the bowa, but the necro too) are going to be targets because of what they do on a team. Setting up the 2v1 advantage (or more) is what gets kills, tvt gets complicated when both teams know how to do that. The trapper isn't really there for dmg (though its nice). My ghostsin, which has base level traps, can be a really effective team dueler, just with her stun. Sure, I WW sometimes, but I spend most of the duel MBing and trapping. The reason people use trappers and not ghostsins for tvt is that trappers hurt they enemy while they do that.

You surely are a fool, aren't you? Trying to set up a 2v1 is only possible if both teams are based on offense, which is just stupidity. Having a flexible team that can change from defense to offense depending on the opposition is what a real TvT team is all about. And no, there won't be too many 2v1 situations in a defensive vs. offensive team TvT. Why so? Because the defensive team works as a whole, forcing the offensive team to re-think their strategy. Or why do you think a team of bvc/boner/hammerdin/bowa is so popular? Because they got the perfect defense with quite a godly offense. However, if they even try to function as individuals, they are as good as a goners. A bowazon cannot do squat alone and that's where the hammerdin comes in: it protects the bowazon while powering up it's offense. The bonemancer will also support both offense and defense: it has a tracking, ranged and magical attack not to mention Amplify Damage making sure that anyone who gets on their screen is pretty much fried. The BvC provides everything with a significant life boost and stops attackers in their tracks.

And that's why such a team wins a lot: they function as a team. Yet, the factor that gives them victory is also their demise: breaking their teamwork by separating them or killing one or two of the team's members makes them as good as goners. This is why a team needs to have characters that can stand 1v1-4 on their own with no help from the rest. Characters that have very few weaknesses. The best solution would be a team where one of the team members is capable of killinbg the weakness of another team member, making it so that, as a team, they are unmatched. At this point, it comes down to planning, coordination and flexible team work.

Making a TvT team that's based sheerly on 2v1 situations is foolish. Yet, making a team where everyone depends on each other is also foolish. Making a team where the members support each other and yet are capable of standing on their own against multiple enemies is what wins TvTs.

[HappyAssassin]

No one Fades in tvt where I duel because prebuff is considered BM.

My "wannabe plan" is based on hours upon hours of team dueling, both as a clan member and an independent, against some of the best people on USWest (Ladder and Non-Ladder players). Trapper/BvC/Necro/Windy is what I've seen to work the best, against Hdin/Bowa/BvC/Windy, Hdin/Necro/BvC/Windy, w/e.

@ Ce Olba: I'm a mod now bro, I can't get into a back and forth quote war with you any more. It'd be irresponsable. Please remember to keep your comments focused on the argument and not the personalities, IQs, emotional failings or poor mathematical abilities on other posters. Friendly reminder.

[Ce Olba]

No one Fades in tvt where I duel because prebuff is considered BM.

I actually find that to be funny. So, you are saying all of the sorcs you have there in TvTs are at best 73% ES, Lightning Sorcs or have 20 base ES? Somehow I don't buy that.

My "wannabe plan" is based on hours upon hours of team dueling, both as a clan member and an independent, against some of the best people on USWest (Ladder and Non-Ladder players). Trapper/BvC/Necro/Windy is what I've seen to work the best, against Hdin/Bowa/BvC/Windy, Hdin/Necro/BvC/Windy, w/e.

Again, it's not about what you've seen, but what is reality. Hdin/Necro/BvC/Bowa is supposedly the ultimate team both defense and offensewise, but from what I gather, a team of BvC/Hdin/Windy/Necro could beat them. Now, I see nothing impressive in the team setup you have. Yes, you have a neat -50% PDR, two physical attackers, one magical attacker and a single elemental attacker. But you are missing the keyfactor that has been mentioned here: Conviction. Lower Resist alone is not enough of a threat for any above-average duelist and you should know that very well. Not to mention that you would need to have a lvl 99 bonemancer to do that if you want to have clay golem and golem mastery also. And I don't see too many lvl 99 bonies around, meaning they sacrifice damage or their summons. Even then, they would need to be at least lvl 91.

@ Ce Olba: I'm a mod now bro, I can't get into a back and forth quote war with you any more. It'd be irresponsable.

So, I was correct when I expected that there was some hidden "code of conduct" for moderators? I see, that's how it seems to go in most places: moderators have to set an example. You know, I find that to be rather ridiculous. No, I'm not mocking the system, I'm just pointing out a slight flaw. Isn't it clearly crippling the discussion if you disallow a moderator from posting in a quote-war? That's, simply speaking, a misdemeanor of one's rights as a human, forcing them to change their own self. Or well, you can look it as a limitation of one's freedom of speech as well. I know, FoS does not exist on forums because they belong to the owner of the forum, but I don't see why should you use that as an excuse to try and force a certain way of behavior on people in a specific group. I bet Mike will edit this out too, but I hope he thinks of doing that for a little while before he does so, as I'm not criticizing the system, the mods, Elly or anyone else. I'm just pondering the values and the supposed code of conduct on this forum. Which I believe should be as allowed as making any other topic.

Please remember to keep your comments focused on the argument and not the personalities, IQs, emotional failings or poor mathematical abilities on other posters. Friendly reminder.

Don't I always do that? I've never spoken of anyone's IQ, mcm, blobs and possibly morotsjos did that. Emotional failings? Not my thing, sorry. Poor mathematical skills? Sorry, that's morotsjos' thing as you very well know from the way he acted towards me at the end of his way on these forums. I know I constantly use sentences such as "You're a fool" or the like, but I do not consider them to be offensive, I just find it to be the exactly correct way of pointing out flaws in a statement. If you dislike that, that is of course your own opinion and you are allowed to have it, but that surely as hell does not justify any level of hatred or acts of hatred targetted at me. Or am I wrong?

[Uncle_Mike]

This is off topic but you do remember that things similar to the above post gave you a temp-ban some time ago right?

If you have a problem with mods and their decisions/comments either use pm or msg Elly and explain why we abuse our powers.

I am not getting involved in a quote battle either, tread lightly...

Do not bother to think about me and what I will or will not edit...think for yourself and what you do...

edit: this is in fact your last warning

[Kiba]

I disagree Kiba. I'd have one of those be a Wolfbarb so you can add a nice BO to the pack.

a flee mongrel barbarian bleh!



Werewolf , Werewolf , Werewolf & Werewolf with Call to arms!

[Ouallada]

Simply put Olba, we agree to disagree. You made some very good points, and I can see where you are coming from. Happy has his own version of tvt rules, so give him that right. He has made good points as well. This discussion won't conclude anything beside telling us what people prefer based on the rules, environment, style and gear that they have. There is no right or wrong answer.

[LtSinborn]

WOWOW. All I see is idiot, who never has tpk'd, and idiot who has never tpk'd.

First off, Ce Olba, I bet you have no idea what the hell dueling is beyond this forum, or your crap pubs that you join. I bet, that when you do duel, you pick up your crap friends, or pub people, and play with each other. You really do have no frickin idea what your talking about.

What the hell do you base all your presumptions on? Forums? What other people have said?

Windy/BvC/Trapper/Necro - is the plain best team. Having been on the top clans on USwest ladder and non ladder, I have experienced the highest calibur of team pk. In all your sentences, you say, "I gather," which obviously shows you have no idea what the hell your talking about. I suggest you go to your room, and get on with crunching numbers you ignorant prick.

Ok, you seem to argue that a bowazon, is a fairly key point in dueling. Wrong Wrong WRONG WRONG. Not only would good necros Invisible Bone Spirit spam that zon, the top trappers would take out that zon in a matter of minutes without being touched. The teams are offensive teams. Defensive teams get demolished. Ex: Epk vs TcO, this is clan pk, the highest of team pk. These were two fairly known clans several months ago. TcO was said to have Adifey, the best bowa on uswest, a reputation that apparently preceeded him. Epk, was the best team on uswest. Epk-GundogII, and Epk-Sauga (Druid and Necro), could 2v4 TcO's team. With superior skills, and an extreme offense, it appears that the best offensive team, vs the best defensive team, Offensive was clearly the winner. It really saddens me, to see such people make input on things they clearly do not understand

It is common for humans to mock and scorn what they have no understanding of.

Once again, I suggest anyone on this forum before they make another retarded comment, to learn how to namelock and duel with people who can actually play.

Ce Olba: I suggest you never talk bad about Ollie again. Because he is clearly your superior.

[Ce Olba]

First off, Ce Olba, I bet you have no idea what the hell dueling is beyond this forum, or your crap pubs that you join. I bet, that when you do duel, you pick up your crap friends, or pub people, and play with each other. You really do have no frickin idea what your talking about.

Oh sorry, but my "friends" on D2 consist of the top players on the Europe realm. I guess you've never heard of any of them, being the arrogant westie that you are.

You know, I've been playing 1v1's, 1vX's, TvTs and pubs. I have quite a good idea of what dueling is inside the private circles and in the pro circles. Not that I would want to brag, but I know at least two or three people on this forum that should be able to verify that.

What the hell do you base all your presumptions on? Forums? What other people have said?

Windy/BvC/Trapper/Necro - is the plain best team. Having been on the top clans on USwest ladder and non ladder, I have experienced the highest calibur of team pk. In all your sentences, you say, "I gather," which obviously shows you have no idea what the hell your talking about.

Just because I've not been a part of each and every TvT team does not mean that I have no idea of what I'm talking about. Again, from what I can gather so far, you are simply angry because I disagree with you. How very pathetic of you to take offense of such.

And again, I'm saying clans mean nothing. The individuals do. 90% of the time the individuals in a clan are much more known than the clan. A few examples that I know of: Vic of RIP on EUSCNL is by far more known than the RIP-clan as a whole. Not to even speak of luis, or FriggenSaget if you will. I, a player on Europe, have heard of Luis but outside of him, I've barely heard of Friggen-clan.

I suggest you go to your room, and get on with crunching numbers you ignorant prick.

Sorry, I am already in my room. Crunching numbers? Nah, I just came home from a schooltrip that taught me about logarithms and basic functions. Sorry, I believe that's enough for this summer.

Your insults are actually rather ... common. Please, if you want to see a reaction, use a much, much more original insult. You are simply amusing, and I'm enjoying that.

Ok, you seem to argue that a bowazon, is a fairly key point in dueling. Wrong Wrong WRONG WRONG. Not only would good necros Invisible Bone Spirit spam that zon, the top trappers would take out that zon in a matter of minutes without being touched.

No, I did not say that Bowazon is a good dueler. You should spend at least a good five minutes reading my posts and thinking about them before making stupid deductions like that. I simply said that most people think like that, but I'd like to see how a certain other team would do against a team of Hdin/BvC/Boner/Bowa.

The teams are offensive teams. Defensive teams get demolished.

Oh, I see that you've never seen two defensive teams face each other. You know what that is? It's two groups spamming projectiles at each other, hoping for the other side to die.

Sometimes, the best defense is the offense. But sometimes it's vice versa.

Ex: Epk vs TcO, this is clan pk, the highest of team pk. These were two fairly known clans several months ago.

Means squat to me?

TcO was said to have Adifey, the best bowa on uswest, a reputation that apparently preceeded him.

And I thought someone said Die-SALSAL was the best bowazon on the whole realm?

Epk-GundogII, and Epk-Sauga (Druid and Necro), could 2v4 TcO's team. With superior skills, and an extreme offense, it appears that the best offensive team, vs the best defensive team, Offensive was clearly the winner. It really saddens me, to see such people make input on things they clearly do not understand

Hah? You are the fool here, sonny. You are basing your arguments of my stupidity, my ignorance and my lack of knowledge simply on what I say. Did it ever occur to you that I might be keeping some secrets? If it did not, then that already shows what kind of a fool you are; one that fails to think on a deeper level.

It is common for humans to mock and scorn what they have no understanding of.

It's also common for people to try to mock others when they themselves have no idea of the opposition. And by the way, your mocking me is simply amusing because you fail to have any creativity whatsoever. Of course, using the reasoning I provided earlier, you could be keeping it a secret because you do not think I'm worth it. Well, that sure would be interesting, considering that you wrote such a long post and yet didn't bother to fire me with everything that you've got.

Once again, I suggest anyone on this forum before they make another retarded comment, to learn how to namelock and duel with people who can actually play.

It seems you have quite a small and flawed vocabulary. Do you even have any idea of the meaning of the word "retarded" or are you simply using it because blobs and all the "good duelists" use such words? If you had knowledge of the meaning of that word, you wouldn't use it so foolishly, trying to anger me when you clearly realize that I am far from retarded.

Sorry, I know very well how to namelock and I usually duel with either my friends or the top of the realm. However, I have been inactive for a year now.

Ce Olba: I suggest you never talk bad about Ollie again. Because he is clearly your superior.

I wasn't talking "bad" about him, I was simply trying to counter his reasoning and fanatiscm for assassins. He seems just like KaythonXE to me, and KaythonXE was a person who had an extreme hatred for BvCs; he claimed that anything from FC bear to kicksin could 10-0 any BvC. In this case, Happy seems like him: he's suggesting a trapper for a position that it does not necessarily fit.

If you had any knowledge of TvTs, you would know that the team needs to have enough players so that you can change the composition of the team according to your enemies. Or are you seriously claiming you always duel with exactly the same people and the same team? I doubt.

And I couldn't care less whether Happy is superior to me or not, that's of no concern whatsoever to me. He plays sins, I play barbs. And lately, the only other known BvC players have been quite inactive. De4dEye hasn't posted in a long time, mainaman has been inactive. The only one's active recently are myself and SicHalo. If you are saying that I, who have quite some knowledge of BvCs, should not post simply because you disagree with me on a single issue, you are truely a fool of the worst case.

Note: Mike, do something about this guy. He seems like a wannabe-henchman of Happy's and he has an attitude like Kaython or blobs. Not good.

[LtSinborn]

O im so sorry for you, you play europe....

Thats like one level below east...

I remember I3unny went over to Europe with a trapper and gamed half that continent

[Ce Olba]

O im so sorry for you, you play europe....

Thats like one level below east...

Now now, aren't you being a bit too arrogant? If you haven't even played on Europe, don't talk about Europe.

I remember I3unny went over to Europe with a trapper and gamed half that continent

And why is it that I've never heard of this person even though I've heard/I know most of the top players of Europe?

[ThatWasShockin]

Now now, aren't you being a bit too arrogant? If you haven't even played on Europe, don't talk about Europe.



And why is it that I've never heard of this person even though I've heard/I know most of the top players of Europe?

I'd like them to come here and give their opinions on you. Since you know them that should be an easy request. :grin:

[Ce Olba]

I'd like them to come here and give their opinions on you. Since you know them that should be an easy request. :grin:

Most of them couldn't care less about me nor do they even recall me. Currently I only know for sure that ben and morotsjos know me personally. Then we have Vic, who's not that nice of a person. Then that who-was-it-again who played the best windy on the realm, I never actually faced him, just saw him playing in a game once or twice.

And you probably already know what morotsjos thinks of me. He doesn't like me, but it's not because I would suck or anything, it's just his thing.

Then we have stoutewolf, who, as far as I know, quit D2. He's quite known here, I believe. And he's only dueled me like a few duels, so...

There might be some skilled players on WW/Trap sins and the like, but I don't recall any. And most of the rest that I knew have quit D2 or haven't kept in contact with me.

Oh, a few members on this forum that have seen me duel or whom I've dueled: SicHalo, Luder and OneBlast, I believe.

[HappyAssassin]

That's quite enough of that. I'd prefer to avoid temp banning anyone.