Hunter / Poison Creeper Advice Needed

[pacifickarma]

I'm currently playing as my first ever Druid Hunter. All of my points will be going into Summoning, with the possible exception of a point into the elemental armor skill. (The name eludes me at the moment.) Currently, I'm at level 27. I've got a fair amount into Dire Wolves, 5 pts into Spirit Wolves, and a single point in Raven, Oak Sage, HoW, and Poison Creeper. I was planning on maxing Poison Creeper (last), but honestly, I think the guy kinda sucks. With +5 skills, my Creeper still rolls over and dies in Act 4 of Normal. I'm not envisioning him as a survivor come NM and Hell. Is it worth putting the 20 pts. into Creeper? I'm refusing any points into shape shifting and only allowing myself the elemental armor from that tree. Would I be better off maxing Ravens after I finish off my wolves, bear, dires, and HoW?

[Venom]

Personally creeper is not a very great skill...

Even with a rabies druid maxing it and alot of +skills... it is for the most just for show and does nothing in hell.

Ravens at higher level just allows you to have a longer recast time... depending on gear this shouldn't be a issue with 1 point.

Are you going pure pvm or attempting to go pvm/pvp?

[pacifickarma]

I'll be going pure PvM. FYI, my Hunter will be equipped with an Upped 2x Shael'd WWS, Jalal's w/ 15% IAS Jewel, CoH, BK, Ravenfrost, Atma's, Gores, and Lavagouts. I've got +6 to Summoning stuff for prebuffing. I'll be playing along with a Chargadin w/max Prayer & using Insight and running Cleansing.

[Queen Mebd]

Personally creeper is not a very great skill...

Even with a rabies druid maxing it and alot of +skills... it is for the most just for show and does nothing in hell.

Poison creeper is not as useless of a skill as you'd suggest. The mats that the creeper creates actually deal more damage with each monster in the clump they attack if I recall correctly. There was actually quite the interesting thread regarding the topic a little while back (possibly by Liquid though I could be wrong here), if that can be turned up I'll post a link for it (this would be a great time for SSoG or someone else who remember this to chime in). It can also be useful for stopping monsters' regeneration, as it deals poison damage, which you'll know can be a big help to your dires or bear if you've ever played pvm with a hunter. It takes a bit more micromanagement as the vine can be killed quickly (though when everything's been poisoned it'll stay underground since there's nothing to attack), though it can always be recast.

[Verashiden]

I remember that thread. I think it has to do with how the poison is applied per frame when multiple enemies are on the mat.

Also, for my Hunter, I don't have it maxed. I don't need an additional damage source so instead I'm maxing Ravens, increasing their blind duration and chance to blind. Then again, I'm using Carrion Vine so that might bias me a bit.

[Venom]

Why not engima instead of CoH. Will allow you to use your minions to protect you more easily(when you teleport they take dmg instead of you) and you gain the ability to teleport around to posistion yourself for using bow? (will also help you keep up with your chargadin friend)

If you want to keep 'pure summon'
your better off using a difffrent vine...

another option... would be 1 pt hurricane and max cyclone armor.. not for the damage off of hurricane but the freezing effect.

It can also be useful for stopping monsters' regeneration
In hell thats all it bares down to... but if your taking 2 hours to kill 1 monster even with hunter... you should be remaking the char...

[Verashiden]

Because Enigma is overhyped for PvM. I can accomplish the same thing by minion placement. It's not too hard to summon another wolf where the heat is coming from to take the heat off.

Venom: Certain boss packs take awhile to kill. I use creep on them and act bosses.

[Jary]

oh god, not this again. With one point in it, lvl 30 poison creeper does nothing for me, absolutely nothing. It's a total embarassment as a summon, useful throwing out in pvp... just because u "can" lol, thats about it.
If I had to kill a group of grunts and raced between shockwave vs creeper, I'd prolly lvl 19 shockwave them to death first lol... with 98 damage a wave vs 150 poison/4 secs a mat.... in fact I'll go to nm tomorrow and test against shenks minions if needed :)

[pacifickarma]

Thanks for confirming what I suspected. I guess I'll leave PC at one point and drop a point into Carrion Vine for kicks. I guess I'll be dumping my extra points into Cyclone Armor or Ravens.

[SSoG]

oh god, not this again. With one point in it, lvl 30 poison creeper does nothing for me, absolutely nothing.

Then you're using it wrong, plain and simple. That'd be like saying "Meteor sux, I have a level 30 Meteor but it does nothing because I cast it on top of monsters and they move before it hits". Each skill must be used properly before its true power is revealed.

With that said, proper use of Poison Creeper makes it fully capable of killing in Hell (I've cleared Hell Cows using nothing but Creeper, except for some Tornado against the Poison Immunes)... but I generally find it to be more effort than it's worth.

[Jary]

no.... it's not saying that? lol
I love how you rationalize me saying poison creeper at 180 ps damage/4secs ... compares to meteor? poison creeper is poison creeper, meteor is meteor. Use properly? yeah... I use it properly... just like my bear, I cast it, but it dies lol

I doubt you killed hell cows using creeper too, it dies in 1-2 hits in hell so you'd barely have time to get enough mats down before it'd die... plus the fact that most monsters heal fast enough to compensate for most of the damgage... actually, I'll take your advice though... I'ma make a hell cow game tomorrow and solo it with creeper... I'll throw screenies up to show my progress so we can all see poison creepers godliness ><. I will try my best use shockwave to stay alive, I might have to have a good book at my side though lol

Oh and btw, I tested lvl 19 shockwave (@63%fcr) vs lvl 30 poison creeper vs. nm Shenk minions, to be fair:

Based on 3 different runs, using my stopwatch on watch, these are the general results when I tested the killing speed:

-lvl 19 shockwave: ~6.2, 7.4, 6.7 seconds
-lvl 30 creeper: ~16.5, 12.3, 13 seconds
I purposely tele'd in the middle of the group so they'd be engulfed in the mats, I think the first time was a fluke so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt... but seriously, shockwave approximately killed twice as fast and this is nightmare, I would do hell but the damn thing'd keep dying or lag the game up... in fact, it dc'd me one of the rounds 'cause of lag

[Queen Mebd]

plus the fact that most monsters heal fast enough to compensate for most of the damgage...

I could be wrong here but doesn't poison damage halt regeneration (or do strafers just throw them in their inventory for pretty green damage numbers in the character screen)?

p.s. I love that we're having a lively discussion over poison creeper, rather than a 'rate my smiter' one or something of the like. :grin:

[Venom]

I could be wrong here but doesn't poison damage halt regeneration (or do strafers just throw them in their inventory for pretty green damage numbers in the character screen)?

p.s. I love that we're having a lively discussion over poison creeper, rather than a 'rate my smiter' one or something of the like.

Bowazons use poison damage to make up for thier lack of a elemental damage.
2x450 poison charms does about 4x more damage than a lvl 40 posion creeper.

Halt regeneration? Unless your killing so slow that this is a issue.... (inwhich case you should remake your char) who cares? Focus on 1 kill it... Focus on next kill it...


Poison Creeper
Skill Level: 40
Life: 451-623
Poison Damage: 225-226 over 4 seconds


Thats ~56 poison damage over 1 sec.
Want to count in hell resistances? Or the fact that pumping the skill fairly high (lvl 40) and it is still worthless?

Lets examine the data (http://www.geocities.com/welett/creeper.htm) this was posted here while back. stating that poison creeper is great skill since thats what your refering to...

Where was his data collected?
0 resists (Normal Difficulty)


If you glance over his data you will be all in awww how powerful creeper is... but why isn't it?

Fallen example: When you cast creeper on a fallen the rest of them will run away if it takes any damage... This means only 1 on the mat.

Now if we could get 100 mobs to sit on the mat ya the numbers look great...
at level 50 , against 8 monsters (of small size since larger monsters can not all fit on one mat.. 1180 against zero resistances. How are you going to get 10 monsters to sit still on 1 mat for that long?
What about hell minions?

Lets look at two diffrent hell minons.

Death Lord
HP: 11128-18546
Psn Res: 33

Warped One(aka Fallan)
HP: 1116-3273
Psn Res: 75

DeathLord:
For three mats (Have you ever seen how long it takes to cast mats?)
100 psn damage before resistances (Remember these guys are not small)
You have what 67 poison damage a secound for 3! mats.

According to the data on website claiming posion creeper is great... It would take 4minutes to kill the death lord. :laughing:

Warped One(ACT 1 hell)
Same situation we do the same 100 psn damage.
But this time he has less hp and more resistances.
So it turns out poison creeper will do 25 damage a secound.
According to this data it would take 2 minutes to kill a Warped one in act1 hell. :thumbsup: This is actually better! you just have to wait 2 minutes for it to kill a mob that normally someone kills in 1 hit.

Keep in mind even 3 creatures to be on a mat at the same time is rare... In cows hell.. the creeper dies right after its cast and psns 2-3 at any given time.... VERY Ineffective.

Instead of wasting time on this skill why not enjoy the effects of freezing mobs maxing cyclone armor and 1 pt in hurricane which gives you the ability to move freely/do as much damage as poison creeper lol? With a decent duration and the ability to not worry about summoning a creeper every 20 secounds in act 1 hell :wink:

But by all means sit around 4 minutes to kill 3 creatures... and if its only 1 creature alot longer.. While he sits there smacking on your char

Refering to engima... I rather be able to teleport and get to point b faster than normal run speed. Have the ability to control my minions specially if they get IM'ed... To make a quick escape if need to...

Be able to tele->attack->tele->attack

CoH is overrated... shouldn't be that hard to get max resistances in hell... specially on char using WWS.

[Verashiden]

But... you're a Druid. Why do you care if a minion eats IM. Are you that short on mana? Sorry, but Minion placement > Minion stack in PvM. Tele is unecessary for this build. CoH is better because it gives the same amount of skills, resists, and extra damage to demons and undead. The only thing you're really going to miss is the +life and FRW from Enigma.

Also, tele at 14+ frames makes me sad. It's terribly ineffective when you can use the same amount of frames to simply cast a new wolf to deal with the approaching threat.

And I think it can be agreed that Creeper is purely a supplementary creature. So I'm not sure why you're arguing on the basis that it can't kill much on its own. One Spirit doesn't kill too well either. Hell, one Dire Wolf isn't an effective killer.

Oh, and you do know freeze duration is reduced in hell and that Cyclone Armor has 0 res right? At level 20 it'll eat one, maybe two Gloam lightnings. If you want crowd slow get a HF merc.

[Ed from Russia]

For any pure hunter, you definitely want to max Dire Wolves, Grizzly and either Oak Sage or Heart of Wolverine. Beyond that you have some choices. I personally don't like putting points in Spirit Wolves (except for 1), because I don't think the Dire Wolves need the synergy.

Unless you want to mix with other skill trees you can spend your points on Poison Creeper and Raven. Both are better than they seem at first; Ravens blind opponents very effectively, while PC can distract whole groups of monsters, and kill them if necessary (i.e. with PIs). You don't need more than 10 hard points in Raven to make it effective (at lvl 16-20 all monsters are blinded), so put the points in PC after that.

[Queen Mebd]

And I think it can be agreed that Creeper is purely a supplementary creature. So I'm not sure why you're arguing on the basis that it can't kill much on its own. One Spirit doesn't kill too well either. Hell, one Dire Wolf isn't an effective killer.

Thanks Verashi, that's the point I was trying to make, halting regen is a supplementary benefit. Thanks for all the calculations too Venom. :wink3:

[SSoG]

no.... it's not saying that? lol
I love how you rationalize me saying poison creeper at 180 ps damage/4secs ... compares to meteor? poison creeper is poison creeper, meteor is meteor. Use properly? yeah... I use it properly... just like my bear, I cast it, but it dies lol
Creeper doesn't do 180 ps damage/4 seconds. It deals 4500 poison damage/4 seconds. If you're only dealing 180 ps damage/4 seconds, then like I said... you aren't using it properly.

I doubt you killed hell cows using creeper too, it dies in 1-2 hits in hell so you'd barely have time to get enough mats down before it'd die... plus the fact that most monsters heal fast enough to compensate for most of the damgage...
First off, doubt it all you want, but I've done it. Second off, I don't care if it dies, because "using it properly" frequently involves spamming it when necessary. Third off, monsters could regenerate infinitybillion HP per second and it wouldn't matter- poison cancels monster regen, remember?

actually, I'll take your advice though... I'ma make a hell cow game tomorrow and solo it with creeper... I'll throw screenies up to show my progress so we can all see poison creepers godliness ><. I will try my best use shockwave to stay alive, I might have to have a good book at my side though lol
How would that prove anything? We've already demonstrated that you aren't using Poison Creeper properly, so that would just show how soloing Hell Cows with Creeper is impossible if you don't use it properly.

I purposely tele'd in the middle of the group so they'd be engulfed in the mats, I think the first time was a fluke so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt... but seriously, shockwave approximately killed twice as fast and this is nightmare, I would do hell but the damn thing'd keep dying or lag the game up... in fact, it dc'd me one of the rounds 'cause of lag

That's a valid concern. I haven't used PC a lot on realms, but I could definitely see it causing a lot of YCHBIs.

Anyway, this isn't to say that Poison Creeper is powerful, it's to say that Poison Creeper is a lot more powerful than you're giving it credit for, and capable of killing in Hell. I still hate it as a skill, because it takes so much effort to get everything to line up just right so that it's killing in Hell, and in my mind it's just not worth it. Not even close, not by a long shot. Doesn't change the fact that it's at least Hell Viable (if you don't mind jumping through 100 hoops to make it work).

I use a 1-point creeper on all builds as a part-time tank and a means of halting monster regen, but better players than I have gotten through Hell using Creeper as an actual killing skill.

[Jary]

I one-two hit kill with my bear. I agree, its a supplementary creature but it's one that isn't needed... whether it was with my build or not, u wouldn't even tell the difference if I were in Hell... doing Nilathak or something like that, etc, it's totally negligible. Why do I care about preventing the stupid monsters healing before my bear even gets to 'em....to swat him dead anyways :D

I 100% agree with Venom in every way, about using Enigma for Teleport (unless using Bow there's no reason u can't get max resists) & creeper... in fact I think were gonna be drinking buddies from now on THANK YOU lol, but its based on my build and my opinion alone... hunter druids might find it useful if they're using a lower damage bow or something, but when I'm doing 7-12k damage I couldn't care less about creeper in pvm... why?
Here, I'll describe my general pvm strategy:
-battlecry... precast oak, precast bear, precast a few ravens
-BO summons
-teleport ::kill::, teleport ::kill:: teleport ::kill:: lol... at what point here do I need to cast creeper to prevent heal? Bosses...mephy? cast HoW, watch him die in 6 hits. Ravens blind.. that's a form of control at least... but I just dont have the patience to worry about this lagtastic snake-thing that keeps dying in 1 hit.

[Venom]

But... you're a Druid. Why do you care if a minion eats IM.
No, but might be short on gold with merc and not using a rogue....


And I think it can be agreed that Creeper is purely a supplementary creature. So I'm not sure why you're arguing on the basis that it can't kill much on its own. One Spirit doesn't kill too well either. Hell, one Dire Wolf isn't an effective killer.

Nope , aruging that there is alot better skills.


Oh, and you do know freeze duration is reduced in hell and that Cyclone Armor has 0 res right? At level 20 it'll eat one, maybe two Gloam lightnings. If you want crowd slow get a HF merc.
2 gloams... cool wasn't even the reason I met to max it....
It increases the duration of hurricane....
So guess ya would get double benfit....
(about the hf merc..)
Personally I would use a rogue act1 merc with faith bow... and bramble... with andys helm...
Thorns rocks... Fant rocks.. (If non ladder.. Giant skull with 2x 40/15's, bramble and WWS)


But... you're a Druid. Why do you care if a minion eats IM. Are you that short on mana? Sorry, but Minion placement > Minion stack in PvM. Tele is unecessary for this build. CoH is better because it gives the same amount of skills, resists, and extra damage to demons and undead. The only thing you're really going to miss is the +life and FRW from Enigma.
Minion placement > Minion stack in PvM.?
You mean the ability to teleport into fray of battle with your minions isn't placement? (while you take no dmg?)

well actually you get...
66% ed at lvl 88 (+str)
+2 skills
faster r/w
8% damage reduction
and mobility

You have something against engima... when belive it or not its the shaftstop of pre 1.10

Did you know casting wolves is based off fcr?
If you need more ed there is always LOH... one of the best pvm gloves in existance.


+25 Defense
+20% Increased Attack Speed
+350% Damage To Demons <---
Fire Resist +50%
10% Chance To Cast Level 3 Holy Bolt On Striking

Mini fortuide on your hands with ias/good fire res...

What he plans on using....

I'll be going pure PvM. FYI, my Hunter will be equipped with an Upped 2x Shael'd WWS, Jalal's w/ 15% IAS Jewel, CoH, BK, Ravenfrost, Atma's, Gores, and Lavagouts. I've got +6 to Summoning stuff for prebuffing.


With WWS you get +40% res
Jalal +30% res
Maras +30% res
10x 5res sc's +50% res
Right there is 150% res....
so would be 50% res in hell not counting scroll quests.(+30%)
Which gives grand total of postive +80% res in hell (75's)

he should switch to loh. (+50% more fire res, and the ed is better than enchant)

IAS Table for druid with WWS(With 2x Shaels)
[IAS]-[Frames]
[0%]-[15]
[9%]-[14]
[18%]-[13]
[30%]-[12]<- he is here (35% ias)
[48%]-[11]
[75%]-[10]
[125%]-[9]

personally i would ditch the ias jewel in jalal... throw a ber (16% dmg reduction)
than wear Nosferatu's Coil.... gives total of 30% ias so same bp and you gain tankablity... :thumbsup:

shael would be another good option since you have low fhr....

Pimped out you will have...
+6 all skills
+5 all druid skills
+9 all summon skills
-------------------
lvl 40 griz with 3715-3860 damage (~14k with HoW)
You will have decent ias... Slow/Area Cold... and teleport...with max res...(and if ya follow all my suggestions... thorns)

want to pvp? grab a widowmaker...

[Jary]

isn't witchwield sorta low on he damage... er, is this up-ed?
If he's using a bow that he likes, nothing wrong with COH. It'd be better for his playing style even if enigma is better for like, mine. ^^
nosferatus coil..... hmmmm, bout time someone made use of that belt :D

[Venom]

WWS upped does about the same damage as windforce(with amp) and it adds to minon dmg with the amp curse.

non upped stats

Two-Hand Damage: (32-35) To (75-81)
Required Level: 39
Required Strength: 65
Required Dexterity: 80
Base Weapon Speed: [0]
+150-170% Enhanced Damage (varies)
Fires Magic Arrows [Level 20]
2% Chance To Cast Level 5 Amplify Damage On Striking
+ (1 Per Character Level) 1-99 % Deadly Strike (Based On Character Level)
All Resistances +40
Sockets (2)

with a 170%ed upped wws you have ... 108x2 (ds hit almost every time) x2 amp

(108*2)*2 = 432
what makes it nice is the speed....
Only bow faster ... and more damage is a Matriarchal Faith (Zon only)

[Queen Mebd]

Keep in mind you to proc the amp off of a Witchwild String you need to hit. With the percentage boost off Jalal's being the only sort of ar gear you've listed (and you're not getting any skill based ar), isn't such a hunter's ar going to be abysmally low?

I've known Faith to be a decent hunter bow for the itd in addition to the fanaticism. Brand or a Kuko can also be useful for the exploding arrows - which are a good way to transfer cb to an area - and the splash won't require any ar to be effective. Those might be a couple alternatives to consider unless you feel like throwing on Angelics.

[Venom]

dunno one time i got bored threw a wws on my hammerdin (lvl 90) and was owning up hell... with hdin gear ;)

[Verashiden]

Dracul's > LoH purely for the minon tankability. Also, I wouldn't quite tele into the middle of a pack if I'm a hunter Druid pulling maybe 1.5k life and no block. That's asking for FHR lock.

Yes, I know summoning uses FCR. But think about it this way:

Obliv Knights. Would you rather tele on top and get your entire army Decrep or use the same amount of time to summon a wolf on top of him and have him decrep one unit, keeping the rest of your party at prime killing spree? Minion stack works for bosses and maybe chasing down a runner. Under most circumstances you want to spread the field out and pick your shots though. That's why I'm saying Enigma is overrated for this build.

And no, I wouldn't use Shaftstop for this build either ;).

Yes, with Witchwild you wouldn't need the extra Resists IF you load up on 5 res all charms. I don't have a lot of 5 res all small charms. Then again, I'm far from wealthy. So, assuming they don't have the charms (which he never stated he necessarily had) CoH would indeed be helpful.

Now, if we're done making predictions of his inventory...

Why Hurricane? The battle normally won't be right in front of you unless you're bottlenecking a hallway. It's normally spread out to give you the space to pick your shots. The only thing that might get close enough are the occasional monster slipping through the seams and beelining you. For those situations I can normally take a step back and summon a minion in front of them to deal with it.

Besides, if a Frenzytuar breaks through you're screwed no matter what you do.

Nosferatu I can agree with. Very nice belt for this build.

I personally use Highlord's on my Hunter. Though it's just a matter of preference.

[Jary]

why not try atmas... for the needed ar, and up your chance to amplify :D
seems like 80-90% deadly from bow u'd be getting wouldn't need an additional 20% from highlords? or is this just for ias?

[Verashiden]

That'd be true if I wasn't using Brand while waiting for a BotD Hydra Bow >.>

[pacifickarma]

um... If you read my original posts, you'd see that I am using Atmas. I'm using Lavagouts instead of LoH for the AR boost from the Enchant, not the fire damage. I don't have any decent resist all charms, so I'm using CoH for the resists, + skills, and the ED. I'm using the Razortail for the chance to Pierce, which I think should help me with increasing my chance for Amp damage. I put an IAS jewel in the Jalals to help me hit the 2nd to last breakpoint. (At least I think I would...)

[Eilo Rytyj]

Firstly:

lvl 40 griz with 3715-3860 damage (~14k with HoW)

This is wrong. HoW will not boost his damage by that much. Find out his base damage by dividing it by the +dmg% bonus on the Grizzly skill. Then add the +dmg% of HoW to the +dmg% on Grizzly. Then multiply it back up again. You'll see that it would be probably less than 5k.


and if ya follow all my suggestions... thorns


Ugh... THORNS? ARE YOU CRAZY? Have you ever made a Hunter before? Might should be the best choice because of the damage it gives to both your minions and your Bow/Xbow. Thorns returns almost NO damage in Hell, it's even worse than Poison Creeper's listed damage. We're just thankful that Poison Creeper has some nice beneficial bugs that go with it, while Thorns still sucks.

Hurricane is pretty much a waste... If you're doing things right you should be nowhere near the action for it to do anything. You wont slow anything, so it's a waste of skill points. The same could be said for Cyclone Armor, 1 point Wonder it is, but not worth more than one without it's synergies. Again, if you're doing things right, your minions should be tanking all the ranged elemental damage thrown your way, and you can hide around corners when facing Gloams and dode their Lightning manually.


CoH>>>Enigma on a Hunter.
66% ed at lvl 88 (+str)

Enigma's +88 str doesn't add 66% ed to your damage. Bows and Xbows are entirely Dexterity-based. You're thinking of Assassin Claws or Dagger-type weapons, which both have the 75%str/75%dex ed bonus. CoH's 200%/100% damage to demons/undead will add more damage than you think. And yes Teleport is overrated on this character, even the 8% life leech on CoH is a better mod than the Teleport oskill on Enigma.

Personally, I think the best bow for a Hunter Druid is a Faith Gorgon Crossbow. No I'm not high. A CROSSBOW. First, it can get to the fastest attack speed for Xbows (11 frames) quite easily. With LoH and Highlord's, you'll be shooting at 12 frames, and with a 15% IAS Jewel in your Jalal's you'll be at 11.

The reason for a Gorgon Xbow is that it has an average base damage of 56, while the highest damage Bow is 39 avg. So, you'll be shooting at roughly the same speed, but will be doing SO much more damage per shot. Plus you get Fanaticism, one of the best minion supplements you can poke a stick at.

You could even use a Faith Colossus Crossbow, it would still hit 12 frames with LoH/Highlord's/IASJewel'd Jalal's, but I just don't like that Strength requirement (163). I'd rather use the G.Xbow, and dump all those points into Dex... remember this is a bow character, more Dex = more damage = better :P

Actually, if you were to use a normal Bow for Faith, then I'd choose a Shadow Bow over all others. With any Fanaticism roll and 40% IAS you get to 9 frames (fastest possible speed), and it's average damage is 37, 2 less than the [10] speed bows and highest of the [0] speed bows.


As for the OP Question: Yes, I would max PC, and prebuff it as high as possible. Start collecting those Druid Summon GCs, and prebuff with them at the start of each game. With enough +skills, and a high enough level yourself, Ravens will Blind for long enough.

I have noticed the PC killing faster than it's supposed to, being in Act 5 Normal with my SP Hunter, my PC does less than 100/4sec damage, but it will still do noticable damage, even on /players 8 (which I'm only playing at, nothing lower).