View Full Version : javazon Enigma or COH Help!!!
etgonehomie
24-03-2007, 20:50
ok..i have a dilemma here...should i use enigma for the 45% fwr, 8% dr, and teleport and then just get resis sc...OR should i go the other way and get coh for teh 60% all resis and 8% dr and get frw sc??? which way is better?? if they are both the same...would teh coh way be the cheaper way??
i would go for enigma, coh is overrated.
awilhelmscream
24-03-2007, 22:32
For a java I would say CoH.
The resists are useful. I wouldn't even worry about the FRW charms; I personally wouldn't notice that I ran slower with CoH than i did with Eni, mainly beacause I wouldn't run anywhere with Eni.
You'll find that you happen to get FRW as a side to all the equipment that you would use anyway (For me that is provided by War Travs, Titans etc.) so it isn't a big worry to get those charms that would just take up inventory space.
xNamastex
24-03-2007, 23:30
Enigma if you want to tele around...and why would you with a Javazon. The best area level clearers in the game. Just keep killing and collect the loot. You will need a COH for +2 skills and resists.
Switch to Enigma for rushing purposes - its slow though.
KremBanan
24-03-2007, 23:56
You dont use Tele on an Amazon to 'tele around'. Its to slow to do that, but you use it for tele to reposition your merc. The mf, str, dr and frw are just nice bonuses.
awilhelmscream
25-03-2007, 00:13
You dont use Tele on an Amazon
Is more the way I see it in most cases. :tongue:
To the original poster: from whats been said I can't see much point in using the runes for eni just to use its biggest appeal in order to move your merc.
if you plan for pvp, Enigma is the way to go... no one is gonna stand there and let you run up and hit them without tele out. Plus pvm is already really easy for a cs/ light fury zon, so i would choose enigma all the way.
tinncann25
25-03-2007, 12:34
if you plan for pvp, Enigma is the way to go... no one is gonna stand there and let you run up and hit them without tele out. Plus pvm is already really easy for a cs/ light fury zon, so i would choose enigma all the way.
hm if your on east, my java says differently
In pvp unless u devote some gear to fcr you will be better off using coh.
i would go for enigma, coh is overrated.
enigma isnt overrated for its teleport skill?
Evrae Altana
25-03-2007, 18:24
I use CoH on my javazon. 65 resists frees up a lot of space. I tried teleporting with her once. Not only was it freakishly slow, but I ran out of mana after only a few teleports.
CoH has some obvious defensive abilities that Enigma doesn't share. They both provide +2 and DR. They both have some really great mods. On my Java's Enigma is my armor of choice if they are both available. I have not had any difficulties with it. I like the Tele/MF/FRW - to me those are more useful than Res/LL. Tele = Slow, but Griffs alone jumps you 3 Frames, Spirit an additional 2. Still slow, but you aren't a teler anyway ;) Repositioning/Wall jumping/etc FTW!
Regardless they both work great in PvM, you just need to incorporate different gear selections and playstyles.
etgonehomie
25-03-2007, 20:14
well..im making a pvp javazon..and i was thinking of just running all over people since im aiming for 125% fwr..so thats y i was thinking enigmas for the 45% fwr...but then my resis would be low...im confused....
tinncann25
25-03-2007, 22:08
sorcs are a main reason y you are trying to hit the desynch frw, you have to consider whether the frw is worth more than being able to take a few hits against a sorc. For may javazon i sometimes get one shotted by a light sorc, and i do use coh.
hmm... i don't know, how do you catch any caster that won't stop teleing with just r/w while they spam outside of your screen and lf range.
hm if your on east, my java says differently
In pvp unless u devote some gear to fcr you will be better off using coh.
enigma isnt overrated for its teleport skill?
Are you kidding me...how can teleport be overrated?, it is without doubt the best skill in the game... far none
But back to the original post...I use coh on mine for pvp and it works very well
crawlingdeadman
26-03-2007, 20:23
it is without doubt the best skill in the game... far none
it's not even the best sorc skill in the game. static field > every other sorc skill for pvm.
ummm... i wouldnt agree, which would you rather have? tele or static field. I would choose tele over static field for my sorc when pvm and pvp.
hmm... i don't know, how do you catch any caster that won't stop teleing with just r/w while they spam outside of your screen and lf range.
It can be tough, but with 150ish frw you will desynch a lot. Also, there's no rule that says you have to chase them endlessly/mindlessly. With all that frw its quite easy to dodge such defensive sorcs. Which tends to make them come to you, which opens up possibilites for lb/lf/cs.
crawlingdeadman
27-03-2007, 01:48
ummm... i wouldnt agree, which would you rather have? tele or static field. I would choose tele over static field for my sorc when pvm and pvp.
how many monsters have you damaged with tele?
etgonehomie
27-03-2007, 02:46
soo i should use coh..but have enough charms to get my 150 fwr?? and 86 fhr??
how many monsters have you damaged with tele?
uhh... your point is? damage can be easily made up by an infinity merc. heck even without conviction many sorc's spells are overkills with good gears. but can you replace tele with anything else? :rolleyes:
I wouldnt imagine a sorc without tele. Which would take longer to finish a run/ rush/ whatever? without tele or without static field? Also there a many high damaging spells already.
The point of the person was saying is that tele is ir-replacable. static field is god and all, but if i have to choose one over the other, i would choose tele WAY over static field.
soo i should use coh..but have enough charms to get my 150 fwr?? and 86 fhr??
Basically, yes. Aim for about 120-150 frw if you can. Frw/res sc's are better than life/res sc's. Frw skillers are also good.
Most people use a rare belt with 24fhr and other nice mods like str/life/res to get up to 86fhr.
Still keep an enigma in your stash. Its a great armor to switch in when you don't need res.
tinncann25
27-03-2007, 12:34
uhh... your point is? damage can be easily made up by an infinity merc. heck even without conviction many sorc's spells are overkills with good gears. but can you replace tele with anything else? :rolleyes:
I wouldnt imagine a sorc without tele. Which would take longer to finish a run/ rush/ whatever? without tele or without static field? Also there a many high damaging spells already.
The point of the person was saying is that tele is ir-replacable. static field is god and all, but if i have to choose one over the other, i would choose tele WAY over static field.
If you are saying teleport is a skill that is irreplaceable you are very wrong. Teleport is only a skill that moves the game along allows for faster game play. It is not a skill that would change the format of the game if it were not there. Certainly its a great skill for its purpose. It is not the greatest skill ever, nor is it irreplaceable.
Again if you have a character on east i would love to duel you with my zon.
what i am saying is that there are no skills that can replace tele for what it does. imaging how long would it that you to finish a run without teleport.
Who is faster to complete a run? A person who don't use teleport but uses static. comparing to a person who dont use static field but uses tele instead.
who said anything about 'changing the format of the game'? what i am saying is that tele > static field in runs and pvp because damage is easily made up by other high damaging spells while you can't made up the speed from teleport. And in pvp static field is not that useful.
speed is the number1 priority when it comes to runs.
P.S yes i would love to duel your zon if i am on east, too bad i am on west.
crawlingdeadman
27-03-2007, 19:07
my zon walks everywhere....what i mean by everywhere is when i do baal "runs" she walks. they're full games people cooperate and much merriment was had by all.
the "skill" that replaces teleport is.... running.
i agreed, I said that i too use coh on my zon b/c i prefer to have the resists and such, but w/o a doubt tele is irreplacable for many chars... imagine baal runs w/o tele, it is w/o doubt the most used skill in the game?... am I wrong..
crawlingdeadman
27-03-2007, 19:46
sure i'll give you that: most used, yes. best, no.
considering this topic was opened for coh vs nigma and not tele vs all other skills, i'm done. you're convinced (arbing) it's the best and nothing i can say will convince you that you're just wrong :lipsrsealed:.
nonono please don't get me wrong, i am not saying 'tele' is the best skill there is, i am just saying tele just makes the runs so much faster and there is no skill that can speed up runs like tele does.
as i said in my previous post, tele makes the runs faster than static field and all.
and as for pvm i would use enigma also, because of the same reason: speed. i never die in pvm with my javazon (except in low levels) without the resist from coh and altho she tele slow (very slow), it's still faster than running. I mean like pvm is so easy already (with enigma or coh and other good gears and a good merc), why wouldnt you choose a faster way?
crawlingdeadman
27-03-2007, 22:20
wha wha. i should reread things...you never said that... anyway. i kill things to have them drop stuff. so i kill everything on the way to pits, sanc, throne, wherever.
you say you done? and then you continue to flame my thoughts by saying that nothing will convince me that i am wrong? sounds like somebody might just be a bit ignorant...
but I dont see how you can even compare static and tele, if you have halfway decent equip, you are much better off on just using your main skill to kill a boss because it faster rather than wasting two skill points to use static
crawlingdeadman
28-03-2007, 04:20
never mind it's dumb to get banned for answering idiots like you.
AnimeCraze
28-03-2007, 06:41
Tele cannot be replaced by any other skill or ability, period. There is no ability in the game that can do the same, or remotely close to tele. After all, tele can go through walls, running can't. Static can be replaced by crushing blow, and it doesn't even stop at 50%. In that aspect, tele is definitely the superior skill. You can always give your merc obedience (or guillaumes or infinity) and have him do the CB for you. Furthermore, if I have crappy gear (as a sorc), I would want tele over static even more (given that there is no/low lag). Reason is, if you are a good enough player, tele can make you dodge 99% of the hits. Static can't do that. Tele can also let you reposition your minions (which is vital for a necro). Static can't do that neither. So, my conclusion is that tele is definitely the most useful 1 pointer in the whole game, as long as you can do it quickly, consistently, and correctly.
However, given that zons tele like slugs and have crap mana, I would choose CoH. Besides, a lightning zon's bane are souls. They will definitely take longer to kill, infinity or not, and they do massive lightning damage as we know it.
crawlingdeadman
28-03-2007, 12:47
never mind it's dumb to get banned for answering idiots like you.
first of all let me apologize for my drunk post.
you say you done? and then you continue to flame my thoughts by saying that nothing will convince me that i am wrong? sounds like somebody might just be a bit ignorant...
but I dont see how you can even compare static and tele, if you have halfway decent equip, you are much better off on just using your main skill to kill a boss because it faster rather than wasting two skill points to use static
okay, i said i was indeed done but you keep sucking me back in. when i said i was done i misstook someone else for you and the next post after that was to clear it up. this one is to defend my being "ignorant" (btw, i never once flamed you (except for my whole idiots thing that i've since apologized for) or your "thoughts" so please refrain from doing the same. we disagree and that's that. me saying your wrong is just like my take on teleport being the best and opinion, it is my opinion that you're wrong). as for static being a waste of skills and that you can just use your main skill to kill just as fast...uh no. even when i had my full light sorc up and running doing 33k light with mf gear i still used static first to knock baal down to half.
the reverse of me saying i couldnt convince you is also true, you cant convince me of this...
how can teleport be overrated?, it is without doubt the best skill in the game... far none
i just dont agree that it's the best. i replied that it wasnt even the best sorc skill, that static is for pvm. comparing a movement skill with a killing skill was a mistake i'll admit it but in refrence to this...
Tele cannot be replaced by any other skill or ability, period.
it can be replaced. you guys think that you have to play this game fast to play it at all. what i'm saying is that i enjoy (the whole point of this game is for personal enjoyment btw) walking. it's slower than teleport but it gives me more enjoyment to walk. i teleport. i'm a teleporter. ask anyone in op diabloii.net about baal runs and i am teleporting at least half the time. i also do chaos runs with my hammerdin (off off topic once i get to sanc i hardly ever teleport/hamemr/teleport, it's better, imo to walk around aiming hammers). when i do these they wind up seeming more like work than having fun. if there's only a few people wanting chaosed i wind up using my zon and have a ton more fun with her.
life and diablo are meant to be enjoyed. stop, smell the roses, kill some black souls instead of teleporting past them.
Yea everyone have their own preference. Yep... well just chill and relax and enjoy the game the way you like^^. Diabloii.net forum is suppose to be one of those mature forums where we can learn each other in a peaceful manner. Hope we can all make peace with each other. ^^
crawlingdeadman
28-03-2007, 14:12
let us all hold hands around a campfire now and sing.:content:
AnimeCraze
28-03-2007, 16:15
Read my argument carefully instead of reading the first statement and argue with it. Your "counter argument" completely fails to address any of the points I bring up. For one thing, there is nothing in my post about teleing and zip past enemies (though that's what I do when I do meph runs).
When I say it cannot be replaced as in there is no skill in the game that does its equivalent, or even close to it. Yes, you can walk and kill the black souls, but I would rather tele and kill the black souls. You don't get hit nearly as often if you can tele properly. It's not about moving around the game quickly, but safely, hence why tele is more useful than static, or just about any other skill in the game.
:shocked:
this is getting way out of hand !!!
but i use coh,just cause i want resis stacked and so i can use SS with great block and bla bla,but eni is great to of course, the str it gives is great, but then u have to think of the resi,then u can use sanctuary shield for 50-70 all resi :smiley: anyways, its all about preference :wink:
crawlingdeadman
28-03-2007, 17:07
i did read your post animecraze, did you read all of mine? comparing static and tele was a bad idea. it should be compared to: walking, dragon flight, leap, leap attack (as a way to move not neccessarily an attack), charge (as a way to move not neccessarily an attack); also the quicker movements of increased speed, burst of speed, feral rage, vigor, and frenzy (i'm sure i've missed one or two) should be included. whether you're a bvc with a high lvl of leap to make someone go into fhr, dflighting in so you can use bramble instead of enigma on a ww sin, or charging around causing desync on a hammerdin most of the listed skills have their uses. are they better than tele? in some cases yes. can they replace it entirely, no. there, you happy? i've conceded a point.
tele to reposition minions is great. especially on a char with more than one (necro, druid). i dont see it being that great on a zon for this reason except to make an infinity merc catch up w/ you.
i dont get hit by souls walking, if i do, i die one hit (base vit) so staying safer with tele is all about play style.
as for not being even close to any other skill then i'll point you to dragon flight which is teleport except you have to have a target (so no wall hopping).
i'm tired of this whole argument. everyone has their thoughts and we keep going around and around snipping at each other w/o accomplishing anything other than to peeve each other off. it has wound up as more of a topic for the sorc forum or community forum. on a zon enigma has it's uses, but i havent used it on one yet and dont really see much of a point to since i've gotten by without it through at least a dozen different types of zons.
ps. how do/did people ever play without enigma :rolleyes:
Static is good, but Teleport is much better to have; my opinion anyway. Just use both. :P
Back on topic, I prefer Enigma on my Javazons. Save up on Strength, Teleport (for repositioning, etc), DR, and one mod overlooked by many... +14 Life after each kill! After mass killing a crowd (especially of undeads/unleechables) it makes a good difference.
i was in a pub duel game with my cs/lf zon, killed the barb, pally, zon, druid no probs with the nigma..and thought the sorc was easy, but one hit and i died. usually can tank one or two hits, but without the coh my resists stunk. i vote CoH!
tinncann25
28-03-2007, 21:59
i was in a pub duel game with my cs/lf zon, killed the barb, pally, zon, druid no probs with the nigma..and thought the sorc was easy, but one hit and i died. usually can tank one or two hits, but without the coh my resists stunk. i vote CoH!
what server do you play on.
Maybe we can duel later
AnimeCraze
29-03-2007, 03:21
i did read your post animecraze, did you read all of mine? comparing static and tele was a bad idea. it should be compared to: walking, dragon flight, leap, leap attack (as a way to move not neccessarily an attack), charge (as a way to move not neccessarily an attack); also the quicker movements of increased speed, burst of speed, feral rage, vigor, and frenzy (i'm sure i've missed one or two) should be included. whether you're a bvc with a high lvl of leap to make someone go into fhr, dflighting in so you can use bramble instead of enigma on a ww sin, or charging around causing desync on a hammerdin most of the listed skills have their uses. are they better than tele? in some cases yes. can they replace it entirely, no. there, you happy? i've conceded a point.No :tongue: . It's not about replacing it entirely, it's about not coming remotely close, given a decent cast rate. I know the pain of running around hell ancients with a harmony bow, and it's a lot worse then teleing around them with a sorc (both have crappy gear). Other skills can do different things, and have different uses, but none of them can do nearly the same thing as tele can. It's like trying to compare charged strike and lightning fury. Though they are both lighting damage, it's pretty clear that one cannot hope to replace the other.
tele to reposition minions is great. especially on a char with more than one (necro, druid). i dont see it being that great on a zon for this reason except to make an infinity merc catch up w/ you.Neither do I :tongue: , nor did I recommend using an enigma on a zon. That much I can agree on. Zons tele like slugs.
as for not being even close to any other skill then i'll point you to dragon flight which is teleport except you have to have a target (so no wall hopping).Personally, I think the closest to teleport is vigor + charge, not dflight, but I am not intending to start another argument now.
ps. how do/did people ever play without enigma :rolleyes:Naj's staff, spellsteel, tele ammy, sorc, etc. My necro was using Naj's staff on switch for a long time. Not that I use enigma on every one of my characters, but if I can get tele without sacrificing much for it (both wealth wise and other attribute wise), I definitely will.
yes, zons teleport like slugs
and if you're being hit by ranged attacks you're not going anywhere
nevertheless, i still use enigma for the str boost and the frw
i still get 38/75/75/39 res
but then, im not very into my javazon, so ymmv
stappywappy
11-04-2007, 20:11
Coh best! i don't have to say anymore
i would go for enigma, coh is overrated.
I'm sure it's been said but I couldn't resist: I use COH, enigma is massively overrated. As if teleporting is the only way to move...zons tele slow anyway.
crawlingdeadman
11-04-2007, 21:31
how can teleport be overrated?, it is without doubt the best skill in the game... far none
since this got bumped again i'd like to, once again, refute this as being wrong.:rolleyes:
AnimeCraze
12-04-2007, 01:54
As I have argued from before, that statement is not wrong for the right builds (like sorc, pally, and necro).
It's just that teleport is not the best skill for a javazon.
And can people stop necroing threads?
crawlingdeadman
12-04-2007, 02:13
lol, it's all good i was just messing around since i saw it on the top again:grin:
Perfect Hatred
12-04-2007, 11:07
Well if you are going for Baal runs then at least get an enigma to use for those runs cause no guys have the patience to stick around while you walk to the throne. With griffons eye and tele switch weapons like hoto and spirit your fcr should be impressive. I dunnow what the breakpoints for fcr are for amazons but I guess you should be able to tele real fast.
Well if you are going for Baal runs then at least get an enigma to use for those runs cause no guys have the patience to stick around while you walk to the throne. With griffons eye and tele switch weapons like hoto and spirit your fcr should be impressive. I dunnow what the breakpoints for fcr are for amazons but I guess you should be able to tele real fast.
Nope
fcr....... 0 7 14 22 32 48 68 99 152
frames..19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11
so with griff+hoto+spirit you'll be teleing at 12 frames. which isnt good.
Perfect Hatred
12-04-2007, 12:57
Nope
fcr....... 0 7 14 22 32 48 68 99 152
frames..19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11
so with griff+hoto+spirit you'll be teleing at 12 frames. which isnt good.
Thanx for providing info about fcr. Well 12 frames is a hell lot faster than running :afro:
crawlingdeadman
12-04-2007, 16:58
Well if you are going for Baal runs then at least get an enigma to use for those runs cause no guys have the patience to stick around while you walk to the throne. With griffons eye and tele switch weapons like hoto and spirit your fcr should be impressive. I dunnow what the breakpoints for fcr are for amazons but I guess you should be able to tele real fast.
i make "baal walk" games and people dont wait they come along with me. i have more fun this way.
Thanx for providing info about fcr. Well 12 frames is a hell lot faster than running :afro:
my lvl 50 pvp zon can outrun teleport. i know i cant run through walls, but in an open area...
Thanx for providing info about fcr. Well 12 frames is a hell lot faster than running :afro:
not if you're a telezon! any decent zon will have a bunch of faster run walk, and that proves alot faster than some slow *** 19 frame teleport
crawlingdeadman
12-04-2007, 18:40
not if you're a telezon! any decent zon will have a bunch of faster run walk, and that proves alot faster than some slow *** 19 frame teleport
best of both worlds, run till you need to "jump" over or through something. i did this with my first sorc this season since telespamming wasnt the easiest thing to do with little to no fcr gear.
Quite simple :P
PvM = Enigma (for teling purposes)
PvP = CoH (more resists etc)
But that's just my opinion
xxnothing
15-04-2007, 03:06
To the original poster... my personal expierence....
After a billion pit runs for a 3os dusk shroud, and some careful trading of a few +skill GCs, I made an Enigma for my lightning javazon. I did it because a friend of mine said it was the ultimate armor ever and chenged his life and blah blah...
After a day of playing with it I hated it. I traded stuff away, pulled the 4os dusk off my mule and made myself a CoH. After a day of using it, I'm quite happy!
I just finished soloing my way through hell act 2 and act 3 this aftenoon. She's level 78 now and wtfpwning everything in sight! (well, I admit it gets kinda slow jabbing all the LI monsters).
But that's just my experience so far... and I only play PvM, no PvP.
K. Enigma have high Str bonus, higher Frw, higher MF, Higher Def, Teleports and Costs LESS.
For my javazon, I wouldn't even consider Resists, simply because I only do cow games with her and that what she is godly at.
Main focus is mf % for items and I'd always choose enigma over CoH.
Resists dosn't even matter to a javazon consider she is pretty much purely Vitality.
Oh and, Enigma's str bonus = more hp.
I use coh and still manage to equip stormshield while putting 0 points into str... so str bonus shouldnt mean much...
AnimeCraze
15-04-2007, 09:00
K. Enigma have high Str bonus, higher Frw, higher MF, Higher Def, Teleports and Costs LESS.
For my javazon, I wouldn't even consider Resists, simply because I only do cow games with her and that what she is godly at.
Main focus is mf % for items and I'd always choose enigma over CoH.
Resists dosn't even matter to a javazon consider she is pretty much purely Vitality.This mod is the one that's actually useful, I would say. If you are doing only cows, enigma can be a fine choice, but I wouldn't use it outside simply because resist is important once you leave the safety of the cow level. As for MF? Why use a zon to start with at all?
crawlingdeadman
15-04-2007, 17:47
mfzon = fun. mf sorc/pally = work.
my new pit strafer has ~ 270 mf with only gheeds, id tome, keys, a flawless gem (in case of shrine action), and a 100 psn/7 life sc in her inventory. i usually do pits, cs, then eldrircht and shenk.
why use a zon to start with? why use anything else?
KremBanan
17-06-2009, 18:21
BREAKING NEWS!
Crawlingdeadman has now changed his view! He does now consider Enigma to be a better choice than CoH on a PvM softcore Java!
KillaMike
17-06-2009, 19:42
my lvl 50 pvp zon can outrun teleport. i know i cant run through walls, but in an open area...
got ya, you are such a lyier, even vigor / charger cant out run 200 fcr sorc :crazyeyes:
crawlingdeadman
17-06-2009, 20:56
i never said 200 fcr sorc. yes, a charger can. yes my zon can.
you're stretching.
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