Which build is the best caster killer?BvC, Ghost, or WW/Trapsin?

[LanceD]

Which of these builds is best at killing casters(in general)? I already have a BvC and i can beat about 75% of the casters i play against, so have some success at killing casters, but have never played the other 2.

Im asking this because I am thinking of taking apart my BvC(who is my best pvp char) so I can make a char that is a pure caster killer(either keep my BvC, ghost, or ww/trapsin) and pure melee killer (BvB).

[mainaman]

Which of these builds is best at killing casters(in general)? I already have a BvC and i can beat about 75% of the casters i play against, so have some success at killing casters, but have never played the other 2.

Im asking this because I am thinking of taking apart my BvC(who is my best pvp char) so I can make a char that is a pure caster killer(either keep my BvC, ghost, or ww/trapsin) and pure melee killer (BvB).ahh one of those threads again...
i like bvc.
I play east where ppl use max block /dr, sorc also use bmanas so best option imo is ghost .

[akumaxxyz]

ww/trap or ghost is better at killing casters

[Sechler]

ww/trap or ghost is better at killing casters

For sorc, nec, windy i'd say ww/trap.
For hdins i'd say bvc's have better odds.
Good hdins will put pts into resist light, and lots have a wisp built on to their finger.

[Camden]

Bvc will do better vs anything other than a nec.

[DayDream]

I'll have to say bvc

[ThatWasShockin]

ww/trapper.

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

kick kick kick

[Rabbitz]

Ww/kick/trappers can decimate all casters. The same can be said about BvC's, The same can be said about ghosts.

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

The hardest casters would be bonenecs and perhaps hammers.

[Arbedark]

Bvc will do better vs anything other than a nec.

Or a Windy, or a Sorc...

Only casters BvC is better at is Palas

[mainaman]

Or a Windy, or a Sorc...

Only casters BvC is better at is Palasi wouldnt say sorc really is aproblem, unless they use mass bmanas and block+dr
but careful play would result in decimating those too.
id still take ghost over bvc for sorc (if they use the abovementioned gear) cuz allowes more room for mistakes

[LanceD]

Thanks for all the replies guys, after thinking about it some more, I am either going to make a ww/trapper because i like their play style or just upgrade the all the charms on my current barb, possibly upgrade to a higher damage grief(mine at the moment is 367 dmg), and try to get a 2 socket coz with 15 dr(I have a 1 soc, 12 dr as of now).

[Camden]

Or a Windy, or a Sorc...

Only casters BvC is better at is Palas

Gonna have ta disagree with ya.

[yelopen]

Well, I play a Ghost, and I do fairly well against casters, although my skill needs tons more work and my charms need upgrading. Most max block casters give me a little more trouble (bone necs), but with skill any of the characters could demolish casters.

[mephiztophelez]

vs ES sorc's: venom'sin > all

[mainaman]

vs ES sorc's: venom'sin > all
almost true.
unless the sorc packs bmanas and btals , its not hard to kill her with BvC either

[Camden]

almost true.
unless the sorc packs bmanas and btals , its not hard to kill her with BvC either

Forsrsly.

Upon reflection of mat's video, I realize just how hard we east barbs have it :(. Holy **** I wish sorcs here died in one full triww. ^______^

[Von Lazuli]

I am pro-ghost (Hybrids are fun too), simply for one thing. Traps. Sure, leap-tele-whirl may seem to work well enough, wait until you trap stun-tele-whirl. I played a ghost initially, then played around with a BvC. I never really reached a high level of skill with my BvC simply because I didn't really find it that enjoyable, plus, I kept thinking, man, traps would make this so much easier...

At the moment I am playing with a Trap/WW hybrid, and she usually demolishes most light casters. Sure, I am not perfect and I often lose when I mis-tele or misposition and eat a heap of fireballs/spirits/whatever, but generally she is very successful. Against heavier casters (read: FOH and Hammerdins) she is also fairly successful, although there are a few more difficulties. Getting the needed stack against FOH paladins is difficult without making sacrifices, as I cannot simply throw on a Kira's without repurcussions such as a loss of FCR/damage. Fortunately, traps are my friend. This is harder to do with a ghost, although I was able to beat many FOH paladins with my ghost (15k attack rating with decent stacked resists is useful...).
Hammerdins are another more annoying proposition, simply because Ghosts and Hybrids tend to top out at a little above 4000 life, which allows you to tank 1-2 hammers without dying. This is a far cry from most BvC's 7000 life and 5-6 hammer tanking ability. Fortunately, you have claw block on your side (which never seems to trigger when you need it). Hammerdins are only really tricky in that they allow no room for error, but, they can be trapped to death as well.

Anyway, both are sound propositions, and those are my experiences with an assassin, so make your own judgement. Sure, some BvC will come in here and tell you that they have never lost versus a caster, but *shrugs* maybe they have incredible gear and robotic dueling skills?

Laz

[Rabbitz]

Considering *top notch* gear.. im not quite certain, its by far easier for a bvc to dominate with little less then decent gear while most hybrids would get stomped.

[Arbedark]

i wouldnt say sorc really is aproblem, unless they use mass bmanas and block+dr
but careful play would result in decimating those too.
id still take ghost over bvc for sorc (if they use the abovementioned gear) cuz allowes more room for mistakes

Never said sorcs were a problem.

Ultimately, BvC is the best ALL ROUND character. No question. Highly skilled player of course. But it simply isn't the best character for every single build except a bone necro...

I'm merely stating that a Ghost / WW/Trap hybrid has it easier than a BvC vs certain classes.

Necros, even you guys agree that a Ghost is better.
Sorcs, Venom + Traps + MB makes it easier to catch a sorc and kill ES ones
Windys, Now this one really is debateablt, since Leap does better KB of minion stack than MBing and traps does. So it's really all about preference, but with crappy FHR rates I prefer Ghosts.

I'd also consider adding bowzons to that list due to dodge lock.

And finally, there's no contest vs any form of melee, BvC is simply better.

[Cheesehed]

can the assasins catch a 163 fcr, 148 fhr nec?

[wizAdept]

can the assasins catch a 163 fcr, 148 fhr nec?Seeing as necros dont have a 163 fcr bp I would say yes.

Ive been playing around on a bvc latly and maybe Im just very inexperienced at it so far, but imo chasing casters, especially necros, is so much easier on assassins.

[Aldragon]

2 handed fury wolf eth tomb >> casters
Al

[Camden]

2 handed fury wolf eth tomb >> retarded and/or blind casters
Al

word


ljjlkjllkj

[Rabbitz]

can the assasins catch a 163 fcr, 148 fhr nec?

164% = druids

If you mean them.. YES.

[mainaman]

Seeing as necros dont have a 163 fcr bp I would say yes.

Ive been playing around on a bvc latly and maybe Im just very inexperienced at it so far, but imo chasing casters, especially necros, is so much easier on assassins.
you need 63 fcr for necros and 200 fcr sorc
then its not that hard to catch them

[wizAdept]

Yeah 63 fcr setup helps, been using that. How difficult they are to catch of course depends on the skill level of the opponent, but for any defensive caster opponent Im trying to chase down, it just seems easier to have chased them down with an assassin. >.>

[Jordanbcool]

BVC hands down, no questions asked.

[Rabbitz]

Dear god..

Ok Jordan, explain in laymen terms.. why that is?

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

Dear god..

Ok Jordan, explain in laymen terms.. why that is?

cus "he be cool"

[Ce Olba]

I'd also consider adding bowzons to that list due to dodge lock.

Excuse me, have you even played a proper BvC? Leap + a little bit of a Doom flash makes any bowazon toast due to
a) slowed arrows
b) the amazon is either knocked back and thus put into double recovery or then she will spend some pretty good time with a doom-slowed dodge animation which alone allows at least a single whirl.

And finally, there's no contest vs any form of melee, BvC is simply better.

Well, of course.

In the end, I would say it comes down to a few things, such as preferance. For example, I prefer actual life over this fancy "effective life" stuff all WWsins brag about with their 60% Claw Block. Also, the fact that if +max PR% or PLR is used, Venom goes toast makes WWsins a bit ineffective due to lack of physical damage. Some will of course say that traps will then take over.

As for sorcs and Windies, I would say something like this:
Windies: I have to say they are pretty equal at this. The WWsin has less life and less damage, but the traps can allow those sides to slip. On the other hand, BvCs can deal with windies way quicker and safer. A good BvC will go pretty much undefeated versus windies.
Sorcs: A normal ES sorc will be to the favour of a WWsin due to Venom and higher OW percentages. However, now take an ES sorc with max block and some 85% PR. That makes your WWsin's only force the OW they got, thus they are equal to BvCs. On the other hand, an absolutely godly ES FB sorc is going to be an OW-fest due to the fact that huge mana regen and high mana will negate almost all damage unless you dish out some serious criticals and have a high damage normally.

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

From a bower point of view, ghosts are scarier than bvcs. Believe me, a bvc does not need 40% tele + doom to completely wreck a bower, no question. But mb + wof is just plain ridiculous.

[Liquid_Evil]

How come Singers aren't listed in the title?

I mean aside from the issue that they are inferior to the 3 char builds posted. Where's the Singer love??

All seriousness aside, all those characters are gg caster killers but I'd probably rank them like this: Ghost > BvC > WW/Trap > Singer.

[ThatWasShockin]

Singers aren't listed because the skill they use is blockable and doesn't do enough damage to get past es. You will go through an entire belt of pots by the time es runs out if you get lucky.

[Mythatic]

Blizzard sorc, until sorbers come-in

[Arbedark]

Excuse me, have you even played a proper BvC? Leap + a little bit of a Doom flash makes any bowazon toast due to
a) slowed arrows
b) the amazon is either knocked back and thus put into double recovery or then she will spend some pretty good time with a doom-slowed dodge animation which alone allows at least a single whirl.



Well, of course.

In the end, I would say it comes down to a few things, such as preferance. For example, I prefer actual life over this fancy "effective life" stuff all WWsins brag about with their 60% Claw Block. Also, the fact that if +max PR% or PLR is used, Venom goes toast makes WWsins a bit ineffective due to lack of physical damage. Some will of course say that traps will then take over.

As for sorcs and Windies, I would say something like this:
Windies: I have to say they are pretty equal at this. The WWsin has less life and less damage, but the traps can allow those sides to slip. On the other hand, BvCs can deal with windies way quicker and safer. A good BvC will go pretty much undefeated versus windies.
Sorcs: A normal ES sorc will be to the favour of a WWsin due to Venom and higher OW percentages. However, now take an ES sorc with max block and some 85% PR. That makes your WWsin's only force the OW they got, thus they are equal to BvCs. On the other hand, an absolutely godly ES FB sorc is going to be an OW-fest due to the fact that huge mana regen and high mana will negate almost all damage unless you dish out some serious criticals and have a high damage normally.

Firstly, yes. I have played a BvC, and I've NEVER SAID THEY FIND IT HARD. I was merely stating that it is EASIER for a ghost / ww/trap sin for an ama, SINCE they get such easy lockups...

Secondly, effective life IS EQUAL to actual life in statistical terms. Its called the expected value. If you don't like the way maths works, then stop using it in all your calculations. And if you're going to ignore a 60% chance to block then you sure as hell should ignore your AR, since thats a %age chance of something happening....

Thirdly, Have you ever played a ghost?

Fourthly, a high Poison res, PLR ES sorc is still easier for a sin. Since they can catch her easier. Yes, due to those little things called traps and MB.

[Ce Olba]

Secondly, effective life IS EQUAL to actual life in statistical terms. Its called the expected value.

Which again, does not equal reality.

If you don't like the way maths works, then stop using it in all your calculations.

Where did I say anything about the ways maths work? Of course I know it, but a chance is not a fact, it's called a "chance" because it's just that: a chance. It's an effective multiplier only in theory. Doesn't go like that in actual practice.

And if you're going to ignore a 60% chance to block then you sure as hell should ignore your AR, since thats a %age chance of something happening....

Well, everything in this game is merely a chance of something happening. Nothing in the game is a steady fact, except some non-changeable numbers. You have a chance to do X damage, but you can also do Z or Y damage. You have an X chance of blocking, but since it's not a fact, it doesn't mean it will block X hits in 10 hits that get through defense, it just says it might happen.

Thirdly, Have you ever played a ghost?

No, I haven't played one. I used to play a random wwsin, but that was really, really long ago, when Ladder season 2 was still there and Grief hadn't been published. When Grief got out, I made a welfare Smiter. After that, I made my first BvC. For a short while I also used a Novamancer and a bonemancer, but in the end, I turned back to a BvC.

Fourthly, a high Poison res, PLR ES sorc is still easier for a sin. Since they can catch her easier. Yes, due to those little things called traps and MB.

You cannot seriously say that MB is always better than Leap. Mind Blast has a disadvantage of the need to be aimed. So, when your opponent is not on your screen, you either need a delayed namelock or you will be depending on you shadow. The healing factor of MB is the swirlies that allow a longer stun. As for traps, yes, they do help keep your target right there and maybe do some damage too, but it's a fact that WWsins depend on Venom and Open Wounds to do any decent damage. That, on the other hand, is what should be dealt to an ES-based sorc. However, you have to take into account that OW and Venom simply do not overthrow a huge WW that easily, specially with a less than 20% chance to hit, specially not so if the sorc has 85%ish PR. Thus, the only things a WW has over a BvC is more OW and a longer stun. Even the OW factor is debatable since most sins nowadays seem to prefer a Fool's claw for AR. The stun, on the other hand, is only needed to keep the sorc in place.

Hell, the very best ES FB sorcs are able to tank a BvC that lacks in the AR and damage departments. And yes, I have dueled such sorcs. Not cool.

[Arbedark]

Which again, does not equal reality.



Where did I say anything about the ways maths work? Of course I know it, but a chance is not a fact, it's called a "chance" because it's just that: a chance. It's an effective multiplier only in theory. Doesn't go like that in actual practice.



Well, everything in this game is merely a chance of something happening. Nothing in the game is a steady fact, except some non-changeable numbers. You have a chance to do X damage, but you can also do Z or Y damage. You have an X chance of blocking, but since it's not a fact, it doesn't mean it will block X hits in 10 hits that get through defense, it just says it might happen.


Exactly, so you can't pick and choose which "chances" you use and ignore.

If you're going to ignore the 60% Block on a Sin then as I said earlier you need to ignore all other chances, AR, Max / Min damage - Need to always take the min damage there...

Ignoring the 60% chance to block is just plain retarded...

And no, if you could read properly, you'd see that I clearly mentioned that it is arguable that leap is better than MB vs druids, meaning that I couldn't possibly thing MB is "always" better than leap. Just versus Sorcs that it is.

And if you haven't played with a ghost I don't see what the point of this whole argument is?

You're clearly just theorycrafting on the whole 'sin section since you don't have the first hand experience to back it up. From an objective point of view (having played both) I was merely stating that a Ghost is better vs certain casters, but you can't see to handle that fact.

[Ce Olba]

Exactly, so you can't pick and choose which "chances" you use and ignore.

If you're going to ignore the 60% Block on a Sin then as I said earlier you need to ignore all other chances, AR, Max / Min damage - Need to always take the min damage there...

Ignoring the 60% chance to block is just plain retarded...

Actually, to be safe, you should always assume the worst case scenario. That's why I do my chance to hit calculations versus lvl 99 opponents.

And no, your 60% block does not block 60% of the time, it's a mere chance to block a hit with a 60% possibility. If it meant that you will surely block 6 hits out of 10, WWsins would be in the top four characters right after BvCs.

Hell, if there weren't two factors that push me away from WWsins, I would've made one ages ago.

And no, if you could read properly, you'd see that I clearly mentioned that it is arguable that leap is better than MB vs druids, meaning that I couldn't possibly thing MB is "always" better than leap. Just versus Sorcs that it is.

Even if it is, that doesn't mean that Sin>BvC automatically. Venom and the higher OW are the only things that make a sin better or equal to a BvC with sorcs. Or well, if you want to, you could account Fade as it gives quite some nice +resistances.

And if you haven't played with a ghost I don't see what the point of this whole argument is?

A creative way of wasting time? If you haven't proved that a sin always block 6 hits out of 10, then why do you waste your time insisting that it adds an effective 60% life? It sometimes does add just that, sometimes less, sometimes more. That's why it's so fragile, it's a chance.

You're clearly just theorycrafting on the whole 'sin section since you don't have the first hand experience to back it up. From an objective point of view (having played both) I was merely stating that a Ghost is better vs certain casters, but you can't see to handle that fact.

Considering that the learning curve of a WWsin is up to par or even harder than that of a BvC and the fact that the OP has already used a BvC before, it would be easier for him to use a BvC. If I tried to use a WWsin right now, I would be totally trashed. Not because of inactivity in playing, but because I'm not used to tighter whirls, traps and MB.

And please, don't make up stupid assumptions like but you can't see to handle that fact. unless you are me or have prof of being a professional psychiatrist since you only make yourself look like a fool, trying to analyze a person through mere words. If you could at least observe me while I read and type, you could say a word. But to be able to make up such claims, you would need to know my past, my personality, my thoughts and also have some serious knowledge about the human mind.

[Uncle_Mike]

And please, don't make up stupid assumptions like unless you are me or have prof of being a professional psychiatrist since you only make yourself look like a fool, trying to analyze a person through mere words. If you could at least observe me while I read and type, you could say a word. But to be able to make up such claims, you would need to know my past, my personality, my thoughts and also have some serious knowledge about the human mind.

Do not derail another topic with personal ramblings please :thumbsup:

This is the PvP forum and such comments are not needed.

Also, there is no need to get personal both of you :smiley:

[Arbedark]

And please, don't make up stupid assumptions like unless you are me or have prof of being a professional psychiatrist since you only make yourself look like a fool, trying to analyze a person through mere words. If you could at least observe me while I read and type, you could say a word. But to be able to make up such claims, you would need to know my past, my personality, my thoughts and also have some serious knowledge about the human mind.

Shame that I've actively taken courses in human psychology, continue to do so, and my degree would theoretically allow me to qualify for a graduate membership in the British Psychology Society and would confer a GBR (Graduate Basis for Registration), then?

A creative way of wasting time? If you haven't proved that a sin always block 6 hits out of 10, then why do you waste your time insisting that it adds an effective 60% life? It sometimes does add just that, sometimes less, sometimes more. That's why it's so fragile, it's a chance.

Simply, because you fail to understand how probability and expected values work.

And I'm not in the mood for giving a lecture on Normal distribution curves and other statistical analyses.

Final question, why do you calculate chance to hit if you're ignoring chance to block? They're both chances, and if you're considering that chance to hit can be ignored as it doesnt "always" work, then chance to hit should be ignored too. And you're barb will "never" hit...

[Ce Olba]

Shame that I've actively taken courses in human psychology, continue to do so, and my degree would theoretically allow me to qualify for a graduate membership in the British Psychology Society and would confer a GBR (Graduate Basis for Registration), then?

I did not ask for stupidities as that, I asked for something serious to back up your saying that I'm something when you don't know a thing about me.

Simply, because you fail to understand how probability and expected values work.

And I'm not in the mood for giving a lecture on Normal distribution curves and other statistical analyses.

If probability was exact, then it would be valid information, but it's not exact, and that's why it's in the probability section. Of course, if you feel like trusting it 100%, you can use your 1.6 modifier to gain yourself another good couple thousands of life, just remember that it's not going to be like that always.

Final question, why do you calculate chance to hit if you're ignoring chance to block? They're both chances, and if you're considering that chance to hit can be ignored as it doesnt "always" work, then chance to hit should be ignored too. And you're barb will "never" hit...

Sorry, I do use CtB as a modifier to CtH. Heck, if I bother, I might even use CtB as a modifier for damage at times. However, rarely do I bother with that since it's not exact, it's merely the worst case scenario.

[Uncle_Mike]

This thread is supposed to be ON TOPIC.
Please handle OFF TOPIC stuff via PM :thumbsup:

Mike

[Arbedark]

removed by U_M

Sorry, I do use CtB as a modifier to CtH. Heck, if I bother, I might even use CtB as a modifier for damage at times. However, rarely do I bother with that since it's not exact, it's merely the worst case scenario.

Yes, and then you go on and generalise to such degrees that it would take "x number of whirls" to kill y class...The same thing that sin players do when talking about an effective increase in life.

Anyway, this has deteriorated into another "Ce Olba can't handle that Ghost > BvC in certain situations" thread.

And finally, at the OP, Ghost > BvC for CASTER killing.

[Uncle_Mike]

removed by U_M



Yes, and then you go on and generalise to such degrees that it would take "x number of whirls" to kill y class...The same thing that sin players do when talking about an effective increase in life.

Anyway, this has deteriorated into another "Ce Olba can't handle that Ghost > BvC in certain situations" thread.

And finally, at the OP, Ghost > BvC for CASTER killing.

Again, this thread is to be ON TOPIC. From now on OT posts will be deleted rather than edited :wink:

@below - it is OnT imo :smiley:

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

Olba's not really "ignoring" clawblock here, I think he's just peeved that some sin users hype it up. Though I do think it sure deserves a *1.6 life modifier in calculations.

I agree with arbe, I'd rather be a ghost against casters.

but to starter, I would go with bvc, not only is it more versatile against melees but its easier to control.

sorry for ot mike, but trust me, fairies exist. and no,not the tooth fairy, they're for stupid babies to believe in. the REAL deal fairies are the wish faries, they exist

see what you do is you wait for 11:11 right, and you make a wish
my girlfriend taught me it
and about 1/111th of the time it seriously works
when the wish fairy isnt too busy with others

ugh, now I've told you guys so she's gonna be more busy because all of you will start wishing.. >.<

[Camden]

I hardly see how a wwsin is harder to control when locking/ww with mindblast is one of the easiest things to do =\

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

I hardly see how a wwsin is harder to control when locking/ww with mindblast is one of the easiest things to do =\
wwsin = lock mb tele ww
ghost / hybrid = throw traps in the mix, don't even know how one would order its moves..

and I said bvc's easier to control, or master. leap tele ww?

[Ce Olba]

Yes, and then you go on and generalise to such degrees that it would take "x number of whirls" to kill y class...The same thing that sin players do when talking about an effective increase in life.

Sorry, I'm not like that. I rarely if ever do something like that. I can remember 1 case where I used such a way and that with Kaython's WWsin vs. BvC topic.

Anyway, this has deteriorated into another "Ce Olba can't handle that Ghost > BvC in certain situations" thread.

Please, don't talk about stupidities like "Olba cannot handle X". Say so after you've known me and researched my actions, behaviour and mind for a couple of years. Before that, I ask you to shut the **** up.

I somehow don't see any person making a character plainly for killing casters, specially not if public games are taken into account.

[Uncle_Mike]

That post had you receive a warning...

Seems the best caster killer will have to be determined in-game as this thread gets closed for excessive OT and insults...

:closed: