Optimal Melee Baal Runner Research

[Liquid_Evil]

I've always been curious as to the melee character with the fastest, most efficient solo Baal runs. Hence, this experiment.

The premise:
Several forum-goers will be involved (hopefully), bringing together a nice compilation of melee chars. They play their chars and post their results so we can compare. It's that simple.

What do we do?
Post your interest and character here. We will then set a date where everyone will be able to join a MP game to acquire the same good map seed (to make sure the level layout doesn't influence the outcome).

Then, each participant will have one hour do to the following on their own time.
-Get to the throne room
-Eliminate throne room minions at players 8
-Eliminate Baal at players 3
-Save and Exit, new game, rinse and repeat
(Make sure to record any deaths)

How do we score this?
Well, we need a way to score this and I'm open to ideas. The best way would probably be tallying experience and then figuring out how much you actually earned by somehow breaking it down, out of its inherent level penalties. (a lvl 97 char would gain far less exp than a lvl 77 char if you didn't take into account the leveling penalties).

Or! We could just go based on how many runs each char was able to complete. This is simpler, but isn't as accurate. Like I said, I'm open to ideas.

Can we enter more than one char?
Yes.

Someone is entering the char I wanted to enter.
Enter yours as well. The more data we collect, the more definitive the results.

What chars can we enter?
Anything that's melee. I'd like to see a broad spectrum of characters as well as differently geared specific classes. Here are some of the classes I'd like to see.

Frenzy, Concentrate, Whirlwind, Wolfbarb, Zealot, Smiter, Avenger, Tesladin, Frost Zealot, Fury, Fury/Rabies, Fireclaws, Mauler...
And although not really "melee," it would be interesting to see the results for a Double Throw barb.

When you post your char, could we maybe get a screenshot of the stats and a breakdown of what you are using, specifically Crushing Blow, Deadly Strike, damage, life, PDR, FRW, FHR, and resist totals. Does your guy block? Swing exceptionally fast? Does your guy use a curse? Is there something interesting or unconventional about your skills or item choices?

Is this a tourney?
No. There are no prizes, its all for the sake of knowledge. There's no reason to report 111 runs in the hour time limit if you only managed 15. The purpose of this experiment is to compare good chars and maybe get some inspiration going for someone to get a melee char into the top ~30 (at least) in the Quest for 99 thread.

[Ray Patean]

I'm in. Stryfe, my Grief zealot/smiter, will have a good time pwning Baal for an hour. I've got a couple other characters I can use if we don't get good participation.

[YoungDbl]

I want to see concentrate barb and a fury druid. Those are my votes.


edit: can any one enter?

[Liquid_Evil]

I want to see concentrate barb and a fury druid. Those are my votes.


edit: can any one enter?

Anyone can enter, yes.

[RibGriller]

This may be suicide for my Frenzier, but I'll try to help out. I've only used him for Pits/Tunnels, so this will be interesting. He'll be using Grief/Oath.

[YoungDbl]

Oh thats cool. I want to see a pure fury druid some body!

[jjscud]

Oh thats cool. I want to see a pure fury druid some body!

This isn't really a request sort of thing, more of a volunteer sort of thing so please build that fury druid.

@Liq - any idea on time frame? I would like grief for both my builds but really need a few more runes to make it happen. Right now I would like to try a Greif/Beast WW barb and a pure smiter.

[grogs]

Cool idea liq, I'll be taking an interest in this :) A couple of things that may help when reporting results and trying to make sense of them:

*I think that you need to have a minimum character level or you'll get some skewed data as it will take a 80ish character FAR longer to complete a run than a 90+ char.

*Scoring: I think that the easiest way to do it would be on average time per run. I say this because it's well established how much exp you get from each run, and in the end, if you are looking to find some function of exp over time factoring in deaths etc, then trying for 99 probably isn't for you :P

At least if you use jj's run counter then the playing field is even for everyone, and you should still be able to see anomalies in runs if pepole die as their run times will be longer.

@ Liq: I don't have a telsadin, but would lend you the required peice of equipment to test the build :)

[sirpoopsalot]

I have a couple of IK barbs (neither is standard - instead of Shout they have Increased Speed & Berzerk), as well as a 'lash/schaeffer's frenzier that I'd be willing to try.

Oh yeah, a PS/Nat's 'sin too that I can un-mothball if no one else volunteers. (btw, I have a fury druid, but I didn't enjoy him enough to un-retire him - someone else can do the fury tests).

Not sure if any of my other my melee chars would have a chance to be a successful runner, as IIRC they're pretty underpowered.


Edit:
as for scoring, would it make sense for a forumla something like: (clvl / seconds per run) * MF
... or something similar where the variables are all given a consistent weight? What additional variables do we need (perhaps # of deaths?). Where's Shags when we need him? :tongue:

[hepcat]

I'll enter my lvl 96.333333 Grief Zealot/Smiter too since he's been running Baal since lvl 83 or so.


The purpose of this experiment is to compare good chars and maybe get some inspiration going for someone to get a melee char into the top ~30 (at least) in the Quest for 99 thread.

Ackbar has 2.8 mil experience and would sit at 24 or so if I would enter.....ahh, apathy.

I know my runs have been taking 5-6 minutes apiece (even longer when Lister spawns PI), but that includes killing a path through WSK 2 and sometimes WSK 3. No Nigma either, which would definitely help speed things up.

[Liquid_Evil]

I'm glad to see some interest. It's nice to see people eager to volunteer.

Ray Patean, Zealot/Smiter
Hepcat, Zealot/Smiter
sirpoopsalot, Phoenix Striker
(might have to make a table that displays clvl and key stats when this gets going)


*I think that you need to have a minimum character level or you'll get some skewed data as it will take a 80ish character FAR longer to complete a run than a 90+ char.

I don't want to limit the participants though. Ideally, all would be the same (high) level, but our community is too small for this.


*Scoring: I think that the easiest way to do it would be on average time per run. I say this because it's well established how much exp you get from each run, and in the end, if you are looking to find some function of exp over time factoring in deaths etc, then trying for 99 probably isn't for you :P

That sounds good. How about instead of an hour, everyone just runs Baal a set number of times (20? 30?) recording the time spent on each one.


@ Liq: I don't have a telsadin, but would lend you the required peice of equipment to test the build :)
I don't have a tesladin either, but I feel honored to have been offered your sweet runeword for testing. Don't you and DC hash out chars sometimes for the hell of it? Need to take advantage of that expensive stick whenever you can so maybe a new char is in order...:wink3:



Edit:
as for scoring, would it make sense for a forumla something like: (clvl / seconds per run) * MF
... or something similar where the variables are all given a consistent weight? What additional variables do we need (perhaps # of deaths?). Where's Shags when we need him? :tongue:

A formula might be kind of neat, if only to help with the skewed data that will come from lower lvl chars slower times. I don't think MF should be anywhere in it though. If you MF, you do it right, with a caster. Assume these chars are only being played for experience (which is why the chars don't have to run WSK...just the minions and Baal for the exp)

[sirpoopsalot]

... I don't think MF should be anywhere in it though. If you MF, you do it right, with a caster. Assume these chars are only being played for experience (which is why the chars don't have to run WSK...just the minions and Baal for the exp)

Agreed, I missed the point in my original post (I've been known to do that once in a while :laugh:).

Also, with a little more thought I think the forumla idea is also somewhat flawed, simply because I suspect that the benefits of gaining levels isn't linear. For example, from my experience running different targets with different builds, a characters survivability increase from clvl73 to clvl77 might be more - or less - significant than clvl83 to clvl87, or clvl93 to clvl97, etc.

[Liquid_Evil]

Then I guess this settles it. Skip the formula, we'll just have each char run a set amount and time each one.

@jjscud- I'm not sure when this will start, it all depends on the amount of players that sign up...how much longer in your rune hunt you bet?

Can someone make a table with the following factors and add our current 3 particpants?
Forum name, build, clvl, shortest run time, avg run time

[jrlafrance]

I'd be willing to put my Frenzy barb (Doolin_Axes) into the mix.

Character Level: 92

Stats: (with gear & war cries)
Strength: 126 (177)
Dexterity: 46 (89)
Vitality: 373 (412)
Energy: 10 (20)

Life: 1689 (3346)

Skills:
Double Swing: 20
Frenzy: 20
Axe Mastery: 20
Taunt: 20
Battle Orders: 4
Shout: 3
Howl: 1
Battle Cry: 1
Iron Skin: 4
Natural Resistance: 4
Bash: 1
Stun: 1
Concentrate: 1
Berserk: 1
Double Throw: 1

Damage as listed on the LCS (Lying Character Screen):

Frenzy: 2445-7199
1337-3181

Berserk: 2144-6231

Defense: 10.9k

Resists: 75,75,80,75

Chance to hit Baal: Frenzy (66%), Berserk (63%)

Gear as Follows:

Arreat's Face
Slayer Guard
'Um'
Defense: 361
Durability: 44 of 55
(Barbarian Only)
Required Strength: 118
Required Level: 47
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 82
Fingerprint: 0xfe1c3e25
+20 to Strength
+20 to Dexterity
+199% Enhanced Defense
All Resistances +45
5% Life stolen per hit
+2 to Barbarian Skill Levels
30% Faster Hit Recovery
20% Bonus to Attack Rating
+2 to Combat Skills (Barbarian Only)
Socketed (1: 1 used)

Fortitude
Archon Plate
'ElSolDolLo'
Defense: 1575
Durability: 39 of 60
Required Strength: 103
Required Level: 63
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 85
Fingerprint: 0x4fd36b93
+200% Enhanced Defense
+300% Enhanced Damage
+15 Defense
Damage Reduced by 7
Fire Resist +28%
Lightning Resist +28%
+5% to Maximum Lightning Resist
Cold Resist +28%
Poison Resist +28%
Replenish Life +7
+1 to Light Radius
25% Faster Cast Rate
12% Damage Taken Goes to Mana
20% Chance to cast Level 15 Chilling Armor when struck
+115 to Life (Based on Character Level)
Socketed (4: 4 used)

Grief
Berserker Axe
'EthTirLoMalRal'
One-Hand Damage: 36 to 106
Required Dexterity: 49
Required Strength: 128
Required Level: 64
Axe Class - Very Fast Attack Speed
Indestructible
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 88
Fingerprint: 0x175c7706
Adds 5-30 fire damage
+13 Life after each Kill
31% Increased Attack Speed
Adds +380 Damage
Ignore Target Defense
-25% Target Defense
Prevent Monster Heal
+2 to Mana After Each Kill
20% Deadly Strike
35% Chance to cast Level 15 Venom on striking
172% Damage to Demons (Based on Character Level)
-23% to Enemy Poison Resistance
Ethereal (Cannot be Repaired), Socketed (5: 5 used)

Beast
Berserker Axe
'BerTirUmMalLum'
One-Hand Damage: 123 to 364
Required Dexterity: 49
Required Strength: 128
Required Level: 64
Axe Class - Very Fast Attack Speed
Indestructible
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 85
Fingerprint: 0x44b32a9c
+30 to Strength
+10 to Energy
+244% Enhanced Damage
40% Increased Attack Speed
+3 to Werebear
+3 to Lycanthropy
Prevent Monster Heal
25% Chance of Open Wounds
20% Chance of Crushing Blow
+2 to Mana After Each Kill
Level 9 Fanaticism Aura When Equipped
Level 13 Summon Grizzly (5/5 Charges)
Ethereal (Cannot be Repaired), Socketed (5: 5 used)

Soul Drainer
Vambraces
Defense: 146
Durability: 9 of 16
Required Strength: 106
Required Level: 74
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 86
Fingerprint: 0x9c4ce230
+115% Enhanced Defense
7% Life stolen per hit
7% Mana stolen per hit
-50 to Monster Defense Per Hit
8% Chance to cast Level 3 Weaken on striking

Gore Rider
War Boots
Defense: 151
Durability: 24 of 34
Required Strength: 94
Required Level: 47
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 58
Fingerprint: 0x3c11db39
+20 to Maximum Stamina
+180% Enhanced Defense
+10 Maximum Durability
Requirements -25%
30% Faster Run/Walk
10% Chance of Open Wounds
15% Chance of Crushing Blow
15% Deadly Strike

Verdungo's Hearty Cord
Mithril Coil
Defense: 133
Durability: 8 of 16
Required Strength: 106
Required Level: 63
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 86
Fingerprint: 0xd20ac1a9
+39 to Vitality
+119 to Maximum Stamina
+103% Enhanced Defense
Damage Reduced by 15%
Replenish Life +10
10% Faster Hit Recovery

Raven Frost
Ring
Required Level: 45
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 59
Fingerprint: 0x5598be4d
+19 to Dexterity
+40 to Mana
+243 to Attack Rating
Adds 15-45 cold damage over 4 seconds
20% Cold Absorb
Cannot Be Frozen

Bul-Kathos' Wedding Band
Ring
Required Level: 58
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 86
Fingerprint: 0xc5f2867b
+50 to Maximum Stamina
3% Life stolen per hit
+1 to All Skill Levels
+46 to Life (Based on Character Level)

Highlord's Wrath
Amulet
Required Level: 65
Item Version: Expansion
Item Level: 75
Fingerprint: 0x24665da
Lightning Resist +35%
Adds 1-30 lightning damage
20% Increased Attack Speed
+1 to All Skill Levels
Attacker Takes Lightning Damage of 15
34% Deadly Strike (Based on Character Level)

Charms:

Fine Small Charm of Dexterity
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 21
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 86
Fingerprint: 0x50472a29
+2 to Dexterity
+19 to Attack Rating
+1 to Maximum Damage

Fine Small Charm
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 21
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 88
Fingerprint: 0x9406d11
+14 to Attack Rating
+3 to Maximum Damage

Fine Small Charm of Incineration
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 37
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 80
Fingerprint: 0x26c104b5
+16 to Attack Rating
+1 to Maximum Damage
Adds 6-13 fire damage

Fine Small Charm of Sustenance
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 21
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 43
Fingerprint: 0xb92a01dd
+12 to Life
+15 to Attack Rating
+2 to Maximum Damage

Fine Small Charm of Inertia
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 27
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 68
Fingerprint: 0x5dbe0945
+20 to Attack Rating
+3 to Maximum Damage
3% Faster Run/Walk

Fine Small Charm
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 21
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 80
Fingerprint: 0x3846d930
+17 to Attack Rating
+2 to Maximum Damage

Fine Small Charm
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 21
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 66
Fingerprint: 0x9f793060
+16 to Attack Rating
+2 to Maximum Damage

Fine Small Charm
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 21
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 88
Fingerprint: 0x56adf83a
+15 to Attack Rating
+3 to Maximum Damage

Fine Small Charm of Greed
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 21
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 85
Fingerprint: 0xe1aac737
+13 to Attack Rating
+1 to Maximum Damage
5% Extra Gold from Monsters

Fine Small Charm of Balance
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 29
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 85
Fingerprint: 0xbb5bc94c
+13 to Attack Rating
+3 to Maximum Damage
5% Faster Hit Recovery

Fine Small Charm
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 21
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 73
Fingerprint: 0xa77c692a
+15 to Attack Rating
+3 to Maximum Damage

Fine Small Charm
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 21
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 80
Fingerprint: 0x88f3d700
+14 to Attack Rating
+2 to Maximum Damage

Fine Small Charm of Dexterity
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 21
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 58
Fingerprint: 0x97a54542
+2 to Dexterity
+16 to Attack Rating
+3 to Maximum Damage

Fanatic Grand Charm of Quality
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 42
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 86
Fingerprint: 0xdea290ce
+2 to Maximum Damage
+1 to Masteries Skills (Barbarian Only)

Fanatic Grand Charm of Venom
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 42
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 80
Fingerprint: 0xb327e0ec
+15 poison damage over 4 seconds
+1 to Masteries Skills (Barbarian Only)

Fanatic Grand Charm of Vita
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 69
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 80
Fingerprint: 0x88d63fd9
+40 to Life
+1 to Masteries Skills (Barbarian Only)

Shimmering Small Charm of Strength
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 25
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 55
Fingerprint: 0xb3fb4e26
+1 to Strength
All Resistances +4

Shimmering Small Charm
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 25
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 80
Fingerprint: 0x548ebab
All Resistances +4

Foul Small Charm of Pestilence
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 31
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 80
Fingerprint: 0x205e08a9
+158 poison damage over 9 seconds

Shimmering Small Charm
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 25
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 60
Fingerprint: 0xe2d173bd
All Resistances +5

Shimmering Small Charm
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 25
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 88
Fingerprint: 0x6ca04643
All Resistances +4

On Switch:
Echoing Hatchet
One-Hand Damage: 10 to 21
Durability: 28 of 28
Required Dexterity: 25
Required Strength: 25
Required Level: 45
Axe Class - Normal Attack Speed
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 82
Fingerprint: 0x2b28698b
+3 to Warcry Skills (Barbarian Only)

Resonant Claymore of the Bat
One-Hand Damage: 5 to 12
Two-Hand Damage: 13 to 30
Durability: 50 of 50
Required Strength: 47
Required Level: 30
Sword Class - Slow Attack Speed
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 82
Fingerprint: 0xc552b2c0
5% Mana stolen per hit
+2 to Warcry Skills (Barbarian Only)

Merc (Level 92 Might):

Fortitude
Wyrmhide
'ElSolDolLo'
Defense: 2796
Durability: 12 of 13
Required Strength: 74
Required Level: 59
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 73
Fingerprint: 0x38cc038d
+200% Enhanced Defense
+300% Enhanced Damage
+15 Defense
Damage Reduced by 7
Fire Resist +28%
Lightning Resist +28%
+5% to Maximum Lightning Resist
Cold Resist +28%
Poison Resist +28%
Replenish Life +7
+1 to Light Radius
25% Faster Cast Rate
12% Damage Taken Goes to Mana
20% Chance to cast Level 15 Chilling Armor when struck
+103 to Life (Based on Character Level)
Ethereal (Cannot be Repaired), Socketed (4: 4 used)

Andariel's Visage
Demonhead
Defense: 344
Durability: 12 of 20
Required Strength: 102
Required Level: 83
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 99
Fingerprint: 0x6a9f62bc
+29 to Strength
+122% Enhanced Defense
Fire Resist -30%
Poison Resist +70%
+10% to Maximum Poison Resist
8% Life stolen per hit
20% Increased Attack Speed
+2 to All Skill Levels
15% Chance to cast Level 15 Poison Nova when struck
Level 3 Venom (20/20 Charges)

The Reaper's Toll
Thresher
Two-Hand Damage: 40 to 479
Durability: 40 of 65
Required Dexterity: 89
Required Strength: 114
Required Level: 75
Polearm Class - Fast Attack Speed
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 88
Fingerprint: 0xb77db5f6
+240% Enhanced Damage
Adds 4-44 cold damage over 1 seconds
14% Life stolen per hit
Requirements -25%
Ignore Target Defense
33% Deadly Strike
33% Chance to cast Level 1 Decrepify on striking

[Lothric]

It's been an age since I posted here but I thought I'd raise a few points.

If the purpose of the exercise is to evaluate the efficacy of different melee builds for running Baal would the results not be affected rather significantly by player skill, gear availability and playing approach? I note that you ask for stats, gear etc. to be listed by each player but unless each build could somehow be considered entirely optimised with regards to gear, stats and player skill would direct comparisons really be valid?

You may have two players with the exact same build but because one has access to a few 1.07 vita pieces and beta runewords, his runs will be substantially faster than his compatriat's. Likewise, a player with an overly aggressive approach may plow through his runs while one who is slightly more cautious (perhaps due to lack of confidence - see playing skill above) is likely to take a little longer, again regardless of the fact that the builds might be exactly the same in all other respects.

That's not to say that I'm disparaging the experiment at all - in fact, the reason I've been enticed to post is exactly because it's a topic that I myself have been wondering about for some time so I'm very interested in the results.

I'd suggest, however, that the above be kept in mind. I'm not sure how one would account for such qualitative rather than quantitative factors, but perhaps players could do a short write-up on their experiences following the experiment from which information on these issues could be gleaned?

[nepeta]

I'll be in with my iron wolf, Baskervillain.

[aitrus]

Here's a table


Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter
sirpoopsalot Phoenix Striker
nepeta Iron wolf


I wanted to build Zealot/Smiter (Grief etc) too but it seems that this will be happening some time soon and I just don't have that much time... Plus I wanted to use Exile with him and I don't have all the runes atm, so I'll just wait for your results people :grin:

Although, I am known to change my mind quickly :rolleyes:

[sirpoopsalot]

Disclaimer: I've never really been a Baal runner, so a small allowance will need to be made for the fact that I suck. However, I'll probably do a few practice runs just to get a feel for it and boost my clvls to a more comparible (and safer) level.




Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
nepeta Iron wolf


I added a column where we can provide a link to a post/thread with info about what the build is wearing, skill points used, etc. Also, I'll give my IK/'zerker a go too.

[colony]

I'll add my WW barb, I need to do the Baal runs anyway, although I still can't do them particularly quickly



Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
nepeta Iron wolf
Colony WW Barb 91
Gear:
Grief/Beast
Enigma
Arreat's
Highlord's
Drac's
Arachnid's
Ravenfrost/Manald Heal
Gore Rider's
Mix of various Charms (mainly AR/Life GCs, SCs and a couple of res/Life SCs and Fine SCs)

Edit: I can add full details in a few hours if they're needed

[nubikoen]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
nepeta Iron wolf
Colony WW Barb 91
nubikoen WW Barb 92
nubikoen Fury Druid 90


I'll add my WW Barb and Fury Druid.

Depending on the timelimit I can add a Berserker Barb too. Meaning if I can get enough play time to run him through act 4 and 5 before the deadline.

[Schmaleop]

I got an IK WW at lvl 85, could possibly help you.
I may have a kick/BF sin too, if that is not pure enough melee then thats np.
Can't guarantee i can commit a lot of time but can get the odd hour done at weekends for a char if it will help.
I love melee chars and would contribute more but i've only got one pat/mat atm so not best equipped right now :)

[RibGriller]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
RibGriller Frenzy 90 xxxx xxxx Will post later
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
nepeta Iron wolf
Colony WW Barb 91
nubikoen WW Barb 92
nubikoen Fury Druid 90


I'm sure that Jrla's Frenzier will probably crush mine with his Beast and Fortitude that I don't have, but just for the sake of knowledge and fun, I'm in. :thumbsup:

[cogline]

My thoughts were similar to Lothric's, in that I saw the problem with the difference in equipment, and player skills.

Even if two players have the same equipment, the varying %ED might be a factor that is really hard to consider.
Also, player skill is going to be vital.

I say this because I have a character which I feel is *capable* (but slow) but of course, I suck, and so I cannot achieve the objective.
With some practice, run this again in a year, and I'll be a participant.

[Asmodeous]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
RibGriller Frenzy 90 xxxx xxxx Will post later
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
nepeta Iron wolf
Colony WW Barb 91
nubikoen WW Barb 92
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90


I'm sure that Jrla's Frenzier will probably crush mine with his Beast and Fortitude that I don't have, but just for the sake of knowledge and fun, I'm in. :thumbsup:

Interested.

Would be good to see how the CTC static builds stack up against the grief zealers and I just know you where relying on me to represent the avengers on this one.
I also have an Berserker up and coming that might make pat by the deadline.
If you need any, I should be able to get him there.

[RibGriller]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
RibGriller Frenzy 90 xxxx xxxx Will post later
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
nepeta Iron wolf
Colony WW Barb 91
nubikoen WW Barb 92
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90


Fixed the table. :)

[DarkChaos]

I've personally taken a great deal of interest in this thread. I'd like to see the results seeing as I've been putting off making some cool melee Baal runners for too long... I do want a melee 99er sometime so I'll be watching this thread quite closely.


Don't you and DC hash out chars sometimes for the hell of it?

No way, that takes time away from Baal runs! Actually yeah I do, not like it takes more than a few hours usually... I just tend to avoid melee. :badteeth:

[herobomberman]

well, i have an IK barb, so ww with maxed mace mastery, just wondering if there is a better set up than IK for a maxed mace barb? say ribby, arreats etc? whatelse would i wear?

[Liquid_Evil]

So what's everyone's time issues like? Could this happen next weekend? Or would you guys like another week or so to even out items/gain levels, etc? I could have someone host a game for a few hours (on a good map), post an ip here and everyone could join and exit to get the same map.



Depending on the timelimit I can add a Berserker Barb too. Meaning if I can get enough play time to run him through act 4 and 5 before the deadline.

I'd really like to see a couple zerkers involved, so I'm gonna pressure you to finish your build before we start. :thumbsup:

@Schmaleop- Go ahead and enter if you like. Like I said, the more people, the better the data.
@herobomberman- I couldn't tell you optimal gear, but I'd say that a nice level of crushing blow and deadly strike might help. I don't really play many barbs.
@ nepata- An Iron Wolf? The Act 3 mercs? Seriously though, what exactly is that? A werewolf that capitalizes on PDR and defense items?
@ lothric- Yeah, I see your point, and I'll try and keep it in mind. Regardless, I think we'll be able to get *something* out of this experiment. Care to enter a char and help the cause? I know you've got a bucket full.

Where's DX with his wolfbarb? (Ray you might have to play nebux's high lvl one) Where's Doomas with his WW'er? Where's the melee crew? I know this cant be all the interest.

Oh, and someone add my Mauler werebear (lvl 88 as of now, hopefully higher by when this starts) to the table. If I can't find someone to host the game to seed everyone's maps I might withdraw so I can do it myself with hamachi. Hopefully I'll find someone though so I won't worry about it just yet. I'll list gear in another post.

[sirpoopsalot]

So what's everyone's time issues like? Could this happen next weekend? Or would you guys like another week or so to even out items/gain levels, etc? I could have someone host a game for a few hours (on a good map), post an ip here and everyone could join and exit to get the same map.


I don't see the need for a "hard" deadline. Obviously, we should set a 'date to aim for' for completing our runs, but perhaps someone will want to come in with a wierd build and provide comparison at a later date. If we preserve knowledge of the mapseed we're using (more on that below), I don't see why this wouldn't be just as applicable 6 months from now.

My personal opinion is that we should try to get the map seed set within a week, and everyone currently signed up should try to add their analysis by March 31.



Oh, and someone add my Mauler werebear (lvl 88 as of now, hopefully higher by when this starts) to the table. If I can't find someone to host the game to seed everyone's maps I might withdraw so I can do it myself with hamachi. Hopefully I'll find someone though so I won't worry about it just yet. I'll list gear in another post.

I don't entirely understand why you'd need to withdraw... is it the map seeds and concerns of drops that spawn identical although they're legitimate? If there's some other reason, please explain.

If it's "duped yet legit" drop concerns, I could just find a good mapseed with one of my retired characters and provide the .d2s file to whoever can host (I can't) - and then the host can use my character (instead of their meleer) to host the game an provide the seed to everyone. If the host can't run multiple D2 sessions, then he/she can email me their chars' .d2s, and I'll join the hosted game with it, save & exit, and mail it back to him/her.

[Liquid_Evil]

Next week or so wasn't a deadline for completing this, just a time frame that hopefully would work for everyone to get the same map seed by joining the hosted game. They would do the runs on their own time whenever over the next couple weeks and get post the results here when they finish.

I need someone to find a good map and have it hosted for several hours while people join and exit to acquire the seed. I suppose I could just keep rehosting and checking maps with my werebear until I found an appropriate one. I was just saying that since I don't have that program that runs multiple copies of d2, that I wouldn't be able to join my own game (the one I created with a tele char that can quickly find a good map without much trouble) with my char(s) that I wanted to compete in this challenge with. I'm tired and didn't really think this through, though hopefully I'll just be able to find someone else have a game hosted for a long period of time. Does that make more sense?

[sirpoopsalot]

Does that make more sense?

Aye, and I agree someone else hosting would may work out to be the most convenient and probably the quickest.

However, if that falls through and if you don't want to spawn a bunch of random rehosted maps with your werebear, you could find the seed with a sorc and email me your werebear.d2s and I'll join the MP game for you with the mauler (I think I'd need to mail back the .map file too, but that's easy enough). My email = apr25_1976 @ yahoo.com

Unfortunately, I can't host though.

[nepeta]

@ nepata- An Iron Wolf? The Act 3 mercs? Seriously though, what exactly is that? A werewolf that capitalizes on PDR and defense items?


I keep saying (writing) iron wolf, instead I mean a titan wolf (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186) :x

it's nepeta :o

[nepeta]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
RibGriller Frenzy 90 xxxx xxxx Will post later
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
nepeta Titan Wolf 88 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186
Colony WW Barb 91
nubikoen WW Barb 92
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90

[Ray Patean]

Liquid: I can host a game and keep it up when the time comes. Let me know when, and I'll do it.

[sablast]

I could join, with fury (lvl 94) or fury/rabies (lvl 95). If you need another wolf, I'll gladly join, if my obligations allow me

[Liquid_Evil]

Well great Ray, thanks. That will make things easier with you hosting the actual game.

I'm glad to see you playing sab. I added both of your druids to the table, but you can delete one if you only want to play one. I also broke the players down into groups of classes. First the barbs, then so on and so forth. Here's the rundown so far.

Barbs- 6
Paladins- 4
Druids- 5
Assys- 1



Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
RibGriller Frenzy 90 xxxx xxxx Will post later
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
Colony WW Barb 91
nubikoen WW Barb 92
Ray Patean Wolfbarb 95
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter 87
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter 96
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
nepeta Titan Wolf 88 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186
sablast Fury Druid 94
sablast Fury/Rabies 95
Liquid Evil Mauler 88
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463

[Asmodeous]

I could ressurect my second computer for the map seed host. While I pulled my two computer system down some time ago, it just keeps on getting thrown back on the table for v1.09 HF runs and so on.

I also have this saturday and probably next saturday as well available to leave it running. From 6.30am to about 5.00pm my time. The ping would be lousy, but you don't need that just to impart the seed.

Erm, how do you read the map seed? Does Atma show this info?

Bit of a build mix up there. Only one sin?

[sirpoopsalot]

Erm, how do you read the map seed? Does Atma show this info?
yes, ATMA does indeed show the map seed.


Only one sin?
... plus the fact that I'm not much of a 'sin player, so I don't know how indicative of success my results will be.... :undecided:


Looks like I have some leveling to do too, everyone else is at least 88...

[neumein]

I'm trying to get CelciusXII to drop by with his Dragon Claw/Venom assassin.

[Serdash]

Is this still up for people joining? I wouldn't mind creating a character to do this with, but it would only be possible if someone had a Fortitude to put out on loan(Or if anyone wished to part with a Lo, lawl.)

[Gabriel74]

Well, I would like to join seeing as

a) no one has a tesladin in here....and
b) I have the same stick that Grogs does (assuming I know what you are talking about).

He is, however, currently underleveled. But, with dedication this week, he should get where he needs to be.

So, Bashier the Tesladin is in.

[aitrus]

Thinking about one other possibility ... TeslaFroster w/ Grief Smite/fana for Baal
That was a char I started long time ago and parked in a1|a2 hell so hopefuly he's not ruined yet :grin:

Any ideas about that?

@Gabriel: Your tesla is pure light? What's with immunes?

Edit:
To add Gabriel to the table


Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
RibGriller Frenzy 90 xxxx xxxx Will post later
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
Colony WW Barb 91
nubikoen WW Barb 92
Ray Patean Wolfbarb 95
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter 87
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter 96
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90
Gabriel74 Tesladin
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
nepeta Titan Wolf 88 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186
sablast Fury Druid 94
sablast Fury/Rabies 95
Liquid Evil Mauler 88
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463

[Gabriel74]

@aitrus. Infinity.

[Liquid_Evil]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
RibGriller Frenzy 90 xxxx xxxx Will post later
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
Colony WW Barb 91
nubikoen WW Barb 92
Ray Patean Wolfbarb 95
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter 87
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter 96
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90
Gabriel74 Tesladin
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
nepeta Titan Wolf 88 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186
sablast Fury Druid 94
sablast Fury/Rabies 95
Liquid Evil Mauler 89
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463



I'm trying to get CelciusXII to drop by with his Dragon Claw/Venom assassin.
Good. Get him over here. :thumbsup:


Is this still up for people joining? I wouldn't mind creating a character to do this with, but it would only be possible if someone had a Fortitude to put out on loan(Or if anyone wished to part with a Lo, lawl.)
Yeah, its still up for people joining. I can get my runs done after this begins and email you my Fort if you like. Just hustle up with the char creation there Infinity boy.

[Gabriel74]

So is it for sure this weekend, or is that still up in the air?

[Tuf]

I had great success with an ik barb a year and a half ago maybe 2 years but that was on realms.to many pk hacks on realms now as i play hc so i came to sp.Dont like playing in 1 player games like to play hell on /p3 to 5 for the exp/challenge.that is at running hell baal only died and ahd to start over 3 times lol.then i lost last ik barb all to im i had no more ik armors left so that sucked.Ik barb is my fav char of all builds to play and mf with.

[Liquid_Evil]

So is it for sure this weekend, or is that still up in the air?

Well, hopefully this weekend, but I suppose its still up in the air. I'd really like to kick this thing off before it loses interest. If there aren't any major objections, then plan on Asmo hosting the seed this weekend.

[Asmodeous]

NP Liq. I'll start getting the thing set up and ready to go. The sooner I can run a decent map, the sooner it's open.

The times that it is open should be between 05.30 and 17.00 forum time Though I can leave it open longer if need be. If anybody has a problem getting on line during these times, let me know.

[bill_n_opus]

This is good stuff. I'll be following this thread closely. Makes me want to finally blow the runes in my stash and make that Grief/Beast ... almost.

Serdash, normally I don't get involved with items etc ... but if you're interested in using a Fort and LE can't get you one i'd be willing to loan out mine for the duration of the experiment. Just PM me.

RL is busy enough as it is anyways. I won't miss the Fort for awhile.

[sirpoopsalot]

I figured since Liq's offering to loan out a Fort, I might as well try my hand at begging too. Fortunately, it's nothing too grandoise (i.e. it's only a Cham). just kidding ;-)

I've been practicing and leveling my barb (kindof), and I want to try a quick experiment to see if I can speed up my barb's time spent during the Baal fight. I'm in need of 2x Jewel of Daring (each must have +9 Dexterity), but unfortunately I gave away many of my junk-jewels recently, so I'm out of the +9 variety, atm. Any additional mods like AR/damage would be a bonus, but plain jewels would work. If anyone can help, please send them to apr25_1976 @ yahoo.com and let me know if you want something in return.

and, yes, I know about begging, and I should be trying to trade elsewhere, and all of that stuff... I have my reasons for posting here, so if you don't mind I'd like to skip lectures. :grin:

[tweety]

I'm working on my Bearsorc atm, so when she's matted I'll have her do some Baal runs. There has to be a sorc in here ;)

I don't expect too much of her, because damage is a bit low, being fire mostly. I'm a little short on runes too, namely two Bers for Infinity and two Jahs for a Dream hat and Dream shield. (Anyone got any spares ;))

With optimal equipement this could be a good Baal runner methinks, teleport, huge damage, fast attack that cannot be slowed by decrep, low IM issues. I have to think about how to switch between static field and normal attack, cause thats a little slow and dangerous atm.
Life is a little low as well.

[Liquid_Evil]

@ tweety- You think the bearsorc will be done and ready to go by week's end?

@ poops- Sorry killer, my best junk jewel with +dex is only 8.

[Brak]

poops, I've got a single plain +9 Dex jewel with you're name on it. Well not literally but you can have it.

[Asmodeous]

Sir poops.

I got a jewel for you. It has a second mod as well which i'm sure you will not mind on little bit. If you want to send something back, I'm short on facets or pretty much any type if you have them spare.


Vermilion Jewel of Daring
Required Level: 50
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 64
Fingerprint: 0xd6a10454
+9 to Dexterity
+14 to Maximum Damage

[sirpoopsalot]

Thanks Asmo, that's a pretty jewel. I did have a spare fire/levelup facet in my grail stash, so I sent it back at ya.

Rainbow Facet
Jewel
Required Level: 49
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 86
Fingerprint: 0x1e3972fa
Adds 17-45 fire damage
100% Chance to cast Level 29 Blaze When You Level Up
+3% to Fire Skill Damage
-5% to Enemy Fire Resistance


Brak, actually, I think I'll just tough it out until my next level (3-4 more runs) and then dump my stat points into Dex - so I'll make the +18 I needed with one of the spare jewels I have on hand (Vermillion of Daring 14/4). Thanks for the offer though.

[DarkChaos]

I'm totally Guardian'ing my Tesladin tonight and testing Baal with him. I'm quite confident he's gonna melt faces... and hard.

[PyreDesign]

Melee Sorc here. Dual Dream Zeal...oress?

Level 87 (leveling currently) at geared up and ready to go. (will be on late friday, saturday evening, and most of sunday, and probably thursday night)

/w *pyredesign

[DeathMage]

Melee Sorc here. Dual Dream Zeal...oress?

Level 87 (leveling currently) at geared up and ready to go. (will be on late friday, saturday evening, and most of sunday, and probably thursday night)

/w *pyredesign

You have dual dreams, where did you obtain them?

[nex]

I don't expect too much of her, because damage is a bit low, being fire mostly. I'm a little short on runes too, namely two Bers for Infinity and two Jahs for a Dream hat and Dream shield. (Anyone got any spares ;))

Short on runes!? :shocked: You made beast, now suffer when everyone else is making much more out of their bers ;)

Well, you wouldn't be short on runes if you stoped wasting them on

*slaps tweety with rotten fish*
*goes back to hf rushing*


You have dual dreams, where did you obtain them?

Since he left bnet account info here that probably means he's playing on bnet... and he's in wrong forum :tongue:

Another edit: BTW nobody thinks this discussion went into wrong direction? Yes, shock zealot is still melee char, but dmg is coming from skills mostly (physical part is very small part of it), and add to that Infinity and that's more similar to caster than to melee char. Gogo real melee chars, the ones that get most of their dmg from weapon :tongue:

[Gabriel74]

DC, why you gotta come in and steal my Tesladin thunder, huh. You suck.

[PyreDesign]

I thought this was b.net... dangit, this sounded fun too. but I made the Dream's myself.

[DX-Crawler]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
RibGriller Frenzy 90 xxxx xxxx Will post later
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
Colony WW Barb 91
nubikoen WW Barb 92
Ray Patean Wolfbarb 95
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter 87
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter 96
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90
Gabriel74 Tesladin
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
nepeta Titan Wolf 88 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186
sablast Fury Druid 94
sablast Fury/Rabies 95
Liquid Evil Mauler 89
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
DX Wolfbarb 97


Dont worry Liq here comes DX and his 1337 lvl 97 wolfbarb:grin:

how are you supposed to place 17 characters in a MP game to get the same good map, might be difficult

[jrlafrance]

Another edit: BTW nobody thinks this discussion went into wrong direction? Yes, shock zealot is still melee char, but dmg is coming from skills mostly (physical part is very small part of it), and add to that Infinity and that's more similar to caster than to melee char. Gogo real melee chars, the ones that get most of their dmg from weapon :tongue:

I happen to agree with nex here. If most (more than 50%) of your damage is coming via aura, then I don't think it should be considered as a part of this research. Just my opinion though.

[Kefir-Tribe]

I don't think that makes any sense. That the damage is not physical but elemental doesn't change the fact its melee. This was about melee characters not "physical damage" characters.

[DarkChaos]

I think melee is anything that's not ranged, i.e. fighting in the melée.

Anyhow, opinions aside, I finished the Tesladin. Even with one-point Zeal and minimal AR he can hit Baal and his run times on a bad map are 4-4.5 minutes, but he's low level still. Also has an awesome way to deal with IM.

Give him 8-10 levels and then we'll see how good he really is... as for being part of this experiment, the only way I can get the same map is to have the seed posted. Otherwise, no can do.



EDIT: jrla... Holy Shock does add quite a bit... 1-10k is nothing to scoff at (5k average).

[jrlafrance]

I don't think that makes any sense. That the damage is not physical but elemental doesn't change the fact its melee. This was about melee characters not "physical damage" characters.

My mistake Kefir. I thought that the Holy Shock aura did a lot more damage than is listed on AS. I don't have any problem with the damage being dealt being elemental, as long as its being delivered melee style.

[Liquid_Evil]

how are you supposed to place 17 characters in a MP game to get the same good map, might be difficult

Since the game will be up for quite a while (Asmo will be hosting for several hours), people will be able to just come in and leave. Once that happens everyone that joined will have the same map seed. No need for everyone to be there at the same time. I'm glad you showed up, I was hoping to see your wolfbarb here.

__
I thought about limiting it to physical damage chars only when I was first thinking of this, but since that disallowed certain builds (zerkers, avengers, frost zealots) and allowed certain others (MS zons, strafers, singers), I thought it was best just limiting to melee. I do see your point though nex and I do like melee chars that have awesomely neat weapons. That said, anything that has to attack with fists, weapon-swinging, or shield-bashing is melee and therefore appropriate to the thread.

[Asmodeous]

As liquid said, I'll be hosting a mp hell game for a few hours. I thought in addition for those who cannot join the game during the time it is up for what ever reason, I would also post the map seed number when I declare the ip address. And, I could even copy the *.map file and e-mail that to anybody who needs it as all they would need do is rename it and it should work.

Never tried that, but it should work in theory. Either way, it shouldn't be too hard to get everybody in the same map seed, assuming my soser can find one within a reasonable amount of time!

[angeldesignpro]

This sounds really interesting... I can't wait to see the results, and I may actually build a barb for it (even if I'll obviously wind up a bit behind the crowd)

[nubikoen]

As liquid said, I'll be hosting a mp hell game for a few hours. I thought in addition for those who cannot join the game during the time it is up for what ever reason, I would also post the map seed number when I declare the ip address. And, I could even copy the *.map file and e-mail that to anybody who needs it as all they would need do is rename it and it should work.

Never tried that, but it should work in theory. Either way, it shouldn't be too hard to get everybody in the same map seed, assuming my soser can find one within a reasonable amount of time!Iirc the .map file does not contain info on the actual map, it only holds info on what parts of the map you've explored.

[angeldesignpro]

Also, out of curiosity, if the only thing that will come of people joining this multiplayer game is them getting that seed, and if they will then have and be able to view that seed, why not just post it and let people use -seed? That seems like as legit of a use for that command as I could imagine...

[sirpoopsalot]

Because the human-error factor is lower by joining an MP game, and many people seriously frown upon using the -seed command because of the potential of (accidentally) abusing it.

Unfortunately for DC, I don't see him having any other option though. :undecided:

[jrlafrance]

Because the human-error factor is lower by joining an MP game, and many people seriously frown upon using the -seed command because of the potential of (accidentally) abusing it.

Unfortunately for DC, I don't see him having any other option though. :undecided:

Sucks being hardcore! lol Besides, I think forum rules restrict us from sharing map seeds.

[nex]

I do see your point though nex and I do like melee chars that have awesomely neat weapons. That said, anything that has to attack with fists, weapon-swinging, or shield-bashing is melee and therefore appropriate to the thread.

Of course. I'm just whining because I don't want to see fanatic zealots and frenziers beaten by elemental zealot :tongue:

Oh, and my previous post shows what happens when you edit post ten times in just few seconds. Now not even I am really sure what I tried to say :undecided:


I thought in addition for those who cannot join the game during the time it is up for what ever reason, I would also post the map seed number when I declare the ip address.

DON'T post seed here on forums. People were already banned because of that.

[Hrus]

I would like to comment the situation about seed numbers. It's a good idea to distribute the map through MP. This forum (and forum moderators :wink3: ) is (are) unfriendly with the seed command. In this case I wouldn't like posting the seed number openly in the forums, but I would allow sending them via PMs to really interested competitors if it will be necessary. In that case I would also like to emphasize the correct use of the seed command - ie running the game with the seed command only to get a map, not killing anything, leave the game and removve the seed command immediatly.

[DarkChaos]

I would like to comment the situation about seed numbers. It's a good idea to distribute the map through MP. This forum (and forum moderators :wink3: ) is (are) unfriendly with the seed command. In this case I wouldn't like posting the seed number openly in the forums, but I would allow sending them via PMs to really interested competitors if it will be necessary. In that case I would also like to emphasize the correct use of the seed command - ie running the game with the seed command only to get a map, not killing anything, leave the game and removve the seed command immediatly.

How about this? I won't pick up any items while using the seed (and yes, I'll use it correctly)

If not, I'll just use my own map.


That's of course ok, but I would prefer only starting the game with the character and leave immediatly (when the game is run with seed command) - it would prevent any items (or gold) to be taken and it also doesn't bring any moral dilemmas if something really good (Zod?) drops under the seed influence.

Of course, as I said I'll use the seed properly anyways. I'm offering to still not pick up any items despite the fact that drops won't be affected, in case people have a problem with it. It's just a test to run Baal, after all.

[Hrus]

How about this? I won't pick up any items while using the seed (and yes, I'll use it correctly)

If not, I'll just use my own map.

That's of course ok, but I would prefer only starting the game with the character and leave immediatly (when the game is run with seed command) - it would prevent any items (or gold) to be taken and it also doesn't bring any moral dilemmas if something really good (Zod?) drops under the seed influence.

[angeldesignpro]

I don't want to start a debate on the ethics of the seed command, but in this instance, what is the difference between player A getting the seed from the MP game and player B getting it via seed command? Even if player B leaves it in the command line, as long as they only play that one character won't they have the exact same game experience as player A?

I only ask because I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding the mechanic!

[LprMan]

I don't want to start a debate on the ethics of the seed command, but in this instance, what is the difference between player A getting the seed from the MP game and player B getting it via seed command? Even if player B leaves it in the command line, as long as they only play that one character won't they have the exact same game experience as player A?

I only ask because I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding the mechanic!

Leaving the -seed x on the command line while playing screws up the drops in a pretty bad way.

[sirpoopsalot]

Leaving the -seed x on the command line while playing screws up the drops in a pretty bad way.

@angeldesignpro
... what LprMan said - that's why it's critical to fully exit D2 and change your shortcut back before restart. I tried to find the thread last night, but the search function's still a little 'off' - basically someone here had to delete a Stormlash last year because of improper use of the -seed command. At least that person was honest about it - how many aren't? If 25 people used -seed, I'd bet that at least 1 of them forgets this step somewhere along the way, which is why I'm personally against using the -seed command for any purpose other than this type of experiment.

@DC, I have no objection to you keeping any items you come across - you know how to use -seed properly, and you don't trade (or MP?) here anyways...

[Gabriel74]

DC is uber hax

[DarkChaos]

Since this thread is pretty fitting... on my own maps I've managed to get my runs under 4 minutes with the Tesladin.

@poops: I've been known to give stuff away so I do have some effect on the trade pool.

[Cattleya]

I'm going to comment on the -seed thing as well. There is a very important reason to do this by an MP game and not by sharing the actual seed. It's in the SPF FAQ on Gameplay Affecting Techniques (http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=1519560&postcount=1).


Under no circumstances should map seeds be shared with other forum members.

The original seed debate predates my time on this forum, so I don't really know how those specific rules came about, but I'm here to enforce them. As it stands, people who trade and MP may have to accept that some people use the -seed command, but it's assumed that they don't share those seeds with others. Making a change to that assumption would require greater input than just from just the participants of this thread.

Now, that having been said, if you don't trade or MP, it falls under "What you do on your own computer is your own business." However, if you do trade or MP, you need to head into the MP game to set your map. Under no circumstances should a seed be posted publicly on the forum.

[nubikoen]

I just want to report that my berserker barb is done, I will not be entering him though.

I don't have the time to get him to a decent level anytime soon, and as it is now (level 84) I'm lucky to get even close to 6 mins/run. More often than not, I'm looking at 7 or 8 mins/run (guesstimating average runtime around 7.30)

With around 10 more levels under his belt, and the practice that follows by getting him there, I'm sure I can shave a minute or two of his average run time but I just don't think he'll do very well... Not with me behind the wheel anyway :P

[Liquid_Evil]

No one need worry about the seed command. A MP game will be set up and the vast majority of the participants will be able to obtain the same map legitmately. Only DC and players that miss the MP game will need to get the seed with a PM to Asmo. Since its only for the use of these experiments, I seriously doubt anyone will mind. That said, I strongly encourage all participants to join the MP game to leave the stake-sharpening eyes of the community with little or nothing to see.

That said, let's move on to another aspect we haven't fully fleshed out. How many runs? If twenty going to be enough to get a good idea of the average? Also, I'm wondering if there shouldn't be something to discount deaths or problems.

If you die, trying to get your body will be a pain and eat away at that particular run time (and could skew the average run time). I'm wondering if runs where a death occurs should be noted, but not averaged or counted with the rest of the times. Thoughts on this?

[grogs]

That said, let's move on to another aspect we haven't fully fleshed out. How many runs? If twenty going to be enough to get a good idea of the average? Also, I'm wondering if there shouldn't be something to discount deaths or problems.

If you die, trying to get your body will be a pain and eat away at that particular run time (and could skew the average run time). I'm wondering if runs where a death occurs should be noted, but not averaged or counted with the rest of the times. Thoughts on this?
For number of runs, the more the better, but you should get an idea of average if you run for a couple of hours (which for a good Baal running char will be between 24 - 30 runs). The aim of any Baaling char is to get at least 1 million per/hour at level 98... so if you can do 12 runs an hour you're gtg.

Don't get hung up on deaths, just count them. If you die, I'd not try to get your body back at this stage, for the simple fact that as you point out it'll detract from run times.

If we could post the run times in a format such as:

Run #1 3:45
Run #2 4:15
Run #3 2:10 (death)

Then it'll be easy to work out what sort of levelling can be achieved by that character.

[DarkChaos]

I understand about not sharing the seeds and the forum rules, but as I said, I'd still like to have some way to partake in this experiment, even though I'm HC. This is a bit of a special case, purely for research, and I even offered not to pick any items up so as to avoid any confusion caused by the -seed command. But if Hrus/Cat (or anyone else) don't like it, I think I can propose an alternate solution that does not involve anybody sharing the map seed number so as not to break the rules.

If Asmo is up for it, I propose a separate game hosted in HC. Once Asmo has the seed in SC, he can himself use the seed command to get that same seed on another character - a HC character. He can then just host with that seed on that HC character and leave the game open so that I can join and acquire the seed this way. I can even provide the character if Asmo needs one that can host in Hell. I'm not advocating the use of the seed command, just trying to find a way I can participate in the experiment as well.

Asmo, if you can host 2 games on that computer that'd be great. If you see this before the weekend and don't mind doing this extra bit of work post back here and let me know if you need a character that is in Hell, etc.

[sirpoopsalot]

@nubikoen,
There's no real limit on completing the runs, so I intend to give this a try soon, and then probably level up sometime in the near(ish) future and highlight the improvements at a later date. Currently, my barb is also quite slow overall, so I won't "win" any competition - but it's not a competition as much as building a small knowledge base.

C'mon, we need a 'zerker. :grin:


@Liq,
I agree pretty much with what grogs said, and would definitely like to keep the death statistics separate - different playstyles + (in)experience + character levels + monster spawns + relatively small # of runs + whatever. It seems like deaths could vary from player to player as much as it would from build to build.

And yeah - I won't be retrieving corpses. I lost 1/2 a level last night trying to get my corpse back and dying repeatedly :tongue:. #%@&*ing gloams. :wink3:


@DC
It's not my decision to make, but that scenario seems a little convoluted for the tiny bit of "benefit" gained. IMO, you've been around long enough and are knowledgable enough to have earned our trust for properly using the -seed command in this one instance.

My 2 cents is to just have Asmo PM the seed number and you can use it to seed your char and be done with it...

[Asmodeous]

Crumbs, looks like I opened a can of worms inadvertentely.

Firstly, I have no intention of getting banned from this forum so Hru's & cattleya, you can check this thread on saturday and all you will find are IP address's. My bad, I didn't realise that sharing seeds was a bannable offence. I apologize.

Dark chaos.

I can do that for you. But I also wonder about the benefit of it. The map would have been generated using the seed command and therefore you would still have to wonder about the legitness or taint of anything you happen to find during the hour. Murphies law dictates that a TC87 or high level rune will drop if you decide not to pick up any items.

I have another idea. Seeing that I will have a clear view of the SC map. I intended to do a full clear in case players wanted to run thru the map and get a layout.
Once I have run a good map and set the SC machine up for hosting, I could then run for a similar map in HC. Similar in that the whole basis of getting the same map on all characters is for the time to get to the throne room.
A good map is one with the shortest possible distances to each way down so the only factor is that the distances should be the same, or if they are different, factor in the extra/shorter time and adjust DC's time accordingly.

This way all maps are generated and obtained legit. The only problem then is that I need a HC character to do it with. And, if this is "legit" there is the issue of where I get the character from, and what happens in the very small chance I happen to get the character "killed" while running the maps. Just an idea.

Either way, if you want me to host a HC game using the seed command for you DC, I'll do it, but I will need a HC hell host and erm, I need to know how. I've never used the seed command before. I do something to the start up icon or something?

[DarkChaos]

Aye, you would. But maybe it would just be simpler for me to run on my own map after all. I have a reasonable map right now - not a perfect one, and not a bad one. I don't want any of this to be against any forum rules just because I'm HC and everyone else is SC.

Time is drawing short but I'd like to see a mod comment on this... it might be too much of a hassle. Thanks for the offer though Asmo, but I don't wanna start anything overly complicated or dramatic.

[Asmodeous]

Ok then DC.

Could be a good idea to time your character to run from the WP to the entrance and compare that to the time for my hosted map. Note your character FRW and ill run my map with the same FRW then adjust your results accordingly. That should be a workable compromise.

[Cattleya]

I'm really not trying to make this so hard on everyone. I just don't want the line on what is acceptable -seed use to get nudged here and have people take issue with it later.

Given the fact that different characters might benefit from slightly different maps from each other anyhow (I'm thinking runners vs. teleporters) I'm not sure that similar but different maps are a real problem for the actual experiment.

The other option (which also has drawbacks, but I'll put it out there) is for DC to get the seed privately, and do the runs in "experiment mode" with a backup of the character. That would mean that everything found by the character would not be legit, but you could still get run times. The main drawback is if a Zod rune happens to drop (or actually, in this case would a Sur be more problematic? :wink3: ) I still think similar maps sound like the best way to go.

@poops: The issue isn't that I don't trust DC to use the -seed command responsibly, its that he'll be gaining XP and potentially items by getting a seed that someone else has found. I realize that the MP game ends up with the same net result, but at least then it's done in a way that can't be complained about later. The other difference is that if DC got the seed from Asmo, he is benefiting from what should be a good run map without having to risk his character to find the map. (Yeah, we all know DC is immortal, but we have to think of the precedent for other HC players.)

[grogs]

I think that this is getting far to far off topic and we are losing sight of what is important in a Baal run. Gaining a few seconds running to the Throne isn't going to impact in the long run (I've made thousands of runs with imperfect maps on my 99's just because I couldn't be bothered finding a better one).

Aside from Strooj and myself, DC has run Baal more than anyone, and he knows what makes a good map. If DC is happy with the map that he's got, in all honesty his data will be more 'meaningful' than others given his experience and gear.

EDIT: That last sentence doesn't read the same way I meant :P It's not that DC's data will be 'better', it's just that I'd expect his runs to be quicker given experience and gear.

[Asmodeous]

Yes I agree.

Afterall, I'm only going to look for a good map for about half an hour or so, so the chance of getting a really spectacular map are pretty small I would think.

I have thought about supplementing in a map that I already have that I know is quite good which my Baal running schaeferdin has so me thinks I'll try my hand at finding a decent map for about half an hour, give up and then host with my pallies map.

Even if I host up a truly woeful map it won't really matter because it will be relative to all the runners and DC's character hasn't got a chance of winning this anyway! :tongue:

[Cattleya]

I hate to keep on this, but as I already mentioned, I don't want any decisions made by a few people here to change the rules for everyone else who trades or MPs. If this continues much more, I will start a separate thread for the -seed issues.



I have thought about supplementing in a map that I already have that I know is quite good which my Baal running schaeferdin has so me thinks I'll try my hand at finding a decent map for about half an hour, give up and then host with my pallies map. I'm going to say no to using your Pally's map. Rolling a map by starting MP games to get a good one (and then giving people the IP once youv'e found it) is fine. Taking a seed from another character then actively using the -seed command so others can get you Pally's map is abuse of the seed command.

[Asmodeous]

Cattleya

No, that wasn't what I was thinking. I was planning to host with my pally and transfer the map to the host computer via MP play, but silly me forgot that the map would reset anyway when I hosted.

Doesn't matter.

After a mere two runs I have rolled up a pretty decent map, actually better than my pallies map.
Basically upon arrival in level 2, head north east and take the very first right and your there. One of those very short ones.
For level three, make a left hand turn heading south west untill the end and then turn left heading south east. At the end of this corridor is the way down. I have cleared the way so look for the trail of bodies and items I guess. I've marked it with a tp which you might see on the mini map.
Gve me a few more minutes and I'll do a full clear on both levels. Hey, the host character is loaded with MF so why not.


IP adress is: 220. 235. 138 .172

I'll monitor the computer from time to time so you can leave comments in the messages if you like. Game should be up for at least another 6-7 hours and longer if need be. I guess i'll get an idea if everybodies been thru by the join/leave messages.

Good luck running everybody!

[Liquid_Evil]

Just bumping this to let everyone see that the MP game is being hosted.

Get the seed and get gamin'!

[sablast]

I have exam (test) tomorrow (yes, on sutarday :cry: ), I wan't be able to join, due to all night studying (last 10 days, to be precise).
Sorry Liq, maybe tomorrow afternoon (my time: GMT+1), although I doubt that I'll have enough time.

[Asmodeous]

So far I've had approx half of the entrants thru the map. I know that a lot of people get on line around 11.30am my time and onwards so things are looking good so far.

Just for the record, I times running my characters thru the map and timing them for possible future comparisions. From appearing at the way point to entering the way down to the final level;

0% frw time of 38 seconds.
20% frw time of 34 seconds.
40% frw time of 30 seconds.
80% frw time of 27 seconds.
80% frw + level 5 vigor (27%) time of 24 seconds.

This info might come in handy for future "research"

[jrlafrance]

So far I've had approx half of the entrants thru the map. I know that a lot of people get on line around 11.30am my time and onwards so things are looking good so far.

Just for the record, I times running my characters thru the map and timing them for possible future comparisions. From appearing at the way point to entering the way down to the final level;

0% frw time of 38 seconds.
20% frw time of 34 seconds.
40% frw time of 30 seconds.
80% frw time of 27 seconds.
80% frw + level 5 vigor (27%) time of 24 seconds.

This info might come in handy for future "research"
I have to say that I'm not thrilled at the map. However, seeing that everyone will have the same map, it doesn't really matter that much.

[sirpoopsalot]

I have exam (test) tomorrow (yes, on sutarday :cry: ), I wan't be able to join, due to all night studying (last 10 days, to be precise).
Sorry Liq, maybe tomorrow afternoon (my time: GMT+1), although I doubt that I'll have enough time.

I won't be completing the runs too soon either - I need one more clvl on my barb, and a few on the 'sin. Hopefully I'll finish the barb this weekend, and the 'sin within a week.

[Asmodeous]

I have to say that I'm not thrilled at the map. However, seeing that everyone will have the same map, it doesn't really matter that much.

Well, it comes down to how long do I try for a good map? I could either continue running hoping for something better, or go with it and get the game hosted. Level 2 is as short as you can get so I didn't think the map was that bad. Besides. What is a better map going to save? 10-15 seconds a run?

[Asmodeous]

Ok, nobody has joined for some time.

In total, I have had 16 characters join the game, so I would say that everybody has been thru who is entered in this project.

I will let the server run for one more hour after this post, then it's down.

[sirpoopsalot]

Well, it comes down to how long do I try for a good map? I could either continue running hoping for something better, or go with it and get the game hosted. Level 2 is as short as you can get so I didn't think the map was that bad. Besides. What is a better map going to save? 10-15 seconds a run?

You did well - in my experience with this map thus far:

- the Well near the end of WSK3 can give enough healing/regen to run directly to the final level.
- when you actually reach the final level, the nasty monsters are more likely to spawn on the 'south' side - so hang an immediate right when entering the final level, and make a b-line straight for the throne room (although, with my FR/W, it's sometimes a very small area where you can safely park/run-past the monsters along the way and 'make your stand' in the throne room without getting Decrep'ed by Baal).
- IMO, if you do die, I think getting your corpse is probably not a good idea given the large # of monster you have to run past in the first 2 WSK levels

That's not the purpose of this post though....


*****
One suggestion I wanted to mention for statistics/tracking purposes - does it make sense to keep track of the spawn? For example:

I'm still trying to get another level out of my IK/'zerker barb (aka Baalbuster - currently clvl86) before I begin actually tracking performance. Earlier this evening the final level of WSK had a spawn of Frenzytaurs, Burning Souls, and Oblivion Knights - all in the same run. For some crazy reason, this slowed me down significantly in just reaching the minions (:rolleyes:)... Since we're likely to have a small # of runs for each build, I think the spawn is often a very significant variable in determining run-speed.

FYI - unless a better approach is suggested - I intend to track my runs something like:



+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Run | # of Deaths / | Time | Death | Monster Spawn* |
| Number | Aborted Run? | | Point | |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| #1 | 0 / N | ~7:40 | N/A | AS, STD, Souls |
| 2 | 0 / N | ~9:00 | N/A | FT, AS, BL |
| 3 | 1 / Y | ~4:00 | Colenzo | Souls, OK, BL |
+----------+---------------+---------+---------+----------------------+
etc.

(FYI, this chart is off the top of my head; the data may not make sense on a 'details' level)

Monster Spawn Abbreviations (go by the graphics - I'm not vouching for the data):
AS = Assailant (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act2-sandraider.shtml)
STD = Stygian Doll (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act3-bonefetish.shtml)
FT = Frenzytaur (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5-bloodlord.shtml)
OK = Oblivion Knight / Abyss Knight (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act4-undeadhorror.shtml)
VL = Venom Lord (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act4-megademon.shtml)
BL = Blood Lord (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act1-vampire.shtml)
Soul = Burning Soul (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act1-Wraith.shtml)
BT = Blood Temptress (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5-succubus.shtml)
... did I forget any?


Edit: BTW, I found a mediocre Gheed's charm earlier (not hot-muled). Woot. :tongue:

[Asmodeous]

I have been doing a few trial runs looking at final set up's for my schaeferdin myself and have noticed the same problem.

Basically if I get a good map with no OK knights or el massed Souls blasting me with multi lightning, I can clear the minions on p8 and baal on p3 in about 5 minutes.
But then you get a nasty bunch and end up abandoning the run at the thron room which then puts your next run up by another 90 seconds - 2 minutes.

So I wonder about what the end results will prove as well. Sure I can post the total number of runs actually done in an hour, which will probably be about 8-10, with some runs within that time of 5.5 minutes and others of 9 minutes or so.

A pool of 8-10 runs is not enough to show a true average really.

Edit.

Anyway, running out of time here in real life. Been busy installing a new Asus 8800GTS 320 meg video card in my system (8,033 3dmark06) and i'm eager to give it a thrashing!

Game is now down.

[Liquid_Evil]

I've been gamin' with the werebear recording the times as I go (no detailed monster spawn reports) and I have a question. What's the consensus on the best Merc setup for melee Baal runs? Killing Baal is taking longer than it should because he teleports around, doubles himself, and generally just pesters me. I like the Decrepify from my merc, but feel like I almost need to incorporate some slow target gear into his setup or something.

I use an Act 2 Offensive Merc with the following gear:
ethereal Reapers Toll s/Amn
"Delirium" Bone Visage
Duriel's Shell

You might be questioning the Delirium choice but the huge radius confusion supplies a certain level of crowd control AND once all the monsters are confused (the wave leaders have to be killed) Baal interprets that as he has no minions and does his annoyingly long laugh in preparation to cast the next wave. As long as my merc doesn't cast Decrepify (and make Baal realize that there are still active monsters in the TR), he will cast the next wave. This isn't as dangerous as it sounds since I have Shockwave to fall back on. Wasting the laugh before all the minions are slain saves me a little bit of time.

Is there a better setup? More spectacular options? What do you guys use personally?

[sirpoopsalot]

My merc is using:
Eth, up'ed Kelpie (Amn)
Guardian Angel (IAS Jewel)
Kira's Guardian (IAS Jewel)

... I tried swapping on an eth, up'ed Hone Sundan for more CB and LL, but I prefer the 'slow' provided by the Kelpie. To speed things up against Baal I put a 'lash on my barb's weapon switch for the ctc Static and CB - it works quite well for the first 1/2 of the Baal battle.

[hepcat]

My merc setup is:

eth Reapers' 'Shael'
CoA socketed w/ 2 plain IAS jewels
Eth guardian Angel 'Um'

the Reaper's helps me with the PIs that occasionally spawn, and the GA definitely helps the merc against the wave 3 hydras...90 res ftw!

[Corrupted]

Reaper's Shael/Jewel, Treachery, Kira's Jewel, 5.5 FPA jab = fastest possibly appliance of decrepify = monsters go down faster and baal is stuck for longer.

[colony]

I've done 10 timed runs so far, with a fairly big range in times, one run took me 6 and a half minutes even without dying. What's really surprised me is how much of an effect Lister's pack having mana burn has on the times, even with a few mana pots it still takes a significant amount longer than normal, maybe even more than if he spawns PI.

I haven't been keeping track of what monster types spwan in the throne, although I haven't met anything too nasty yet. I'll aim for 30 runs I expect, that should start to give a reasonably reliable average to use.

[DarkChaos]

Maybe I should have kept track better than I have so far... I just wrote down the times to the nearest 5 seconds or so. I guess this gives a good general idea... I can go back later and make it prettier, and all that. I didn't keep track of monster spawns but I know what gave more trouble so that's obvious from the times over 4 minutes.


4:35
3:35
3:10
4:10
3:45
4:00
3:25
3:40
3:30
4:20
3:55
3:35
3:50
3:15
4:45
4:05
3:40
3:20
3:25
4:00
3:50
3:35
3:45
3:40
3:50
3:55
4:05
3:20
3:35
4:15
3:55
3:30
3:35
3:45
3:40
4:00
3:20
3:25
3:35
3:30
3:40
3:15
3:35
3:30
3:50
3:45
3:25
3:30
3:35
3:40
4:40
3:05
3:20
3:25
3:35
3:40
4:00
3:55
3:15
3:30
3:30
3:40
3:50
3:25
3:20
3:55
3:45
3:45
4:00
3:50
3:30
3:45
3:55
3:35
3:15
2:55
4:05
3:40
3:45
3:45
3:40
3:30
3:50
3:55
3:45
3:50
4:00
4:05
3:25
3:30
3:40
3:40
3:40
3:35
3:50
3:15
3:25
3:55
4:00
4:05
3:45

100 recorded runs. I know it's not pretty but hey, I gotta go for efficiency here as I go towards 99, can't be wasting my time dawdling and writing down details about the runs. :tongue:

Assuming I averaged all those correctly, the average run time is 3:43, but that's only significant/accurate to 5 seconds. It sounds pretty close to right though. I actually averaged the first 50, which were 3:44, and the second 50, which were 3:42, so overall not much discrepancy and it's where I think it should be.

I might be able to get the time down a bit more but I think that's pretty close to as good as I can get it.

Fastest recorded run: 2:55
Slowest recorded run: 4:45

[sirpoopsalot]

Slowest recorded run: 4:45

I'm not even certain that my IK barb is getting that as a fastest time - on /players1. :tongue:

[DarkChaos]

I'm not even certain that my IK barb is getting that as a fastest time - on /players1. :tongue:

IK Barbs are slow and useless. I don't know why everyone thinks they're any good. :wink3:

[Asmodeous]

Dark Chaos

Crumbs. Those are insane times!

Assuming your running a map similar to mine, say thirty seconds to get to the fourth level, another thirty to get to the throne area and clear, that leaves you about 150 seconds for the 5 waves, 30 seconds per wave and then another 30 seconds of baal.

Thats moving! What the heck are you using? What ever it is, I'm pretty sure it wins this research, hands down.

Anyway, here are some details on my runs. All figures are fully equipped and might merc aura active.

Character = Maxamillian. Level 94 Schaeferdin.

Str 229
Dex 143
Vit 250
ene 15

Damage 2074-5449 @ 8/4 zeal (schaefers) 3264-3979 @ 8/4 zeal (stone crusher)

Life 1224
mana 204
Defence 28,006 & 26,330
Shield block 75% naturally
Attack rating 9,573

Gear.

2 x Upped HoZ c/w ias jewels.
two hole CoA with resists/ias jewels.
Highlords amulet.
String of ears.
Crafted life leech ring/raven frost
Gore riders
Laying of hands.
Ethereal steel carapace c/w ias jewel.

Level 27 zeal c/w maxed synergies. Level 29 fanatism, level 27 holy shield, level 14 defiance (hard points)

Strategy.

Basically run thru the first two levels and then to the throne room. Clear throne room and entrance on players 1. Abandon game if too many OK's. Up players setting for first wave. about 90 seconds. This is the area of my times biggest variation. Sometimes you get 5 monsters, sometimes you get 50! Im sure you all know!

First wave simply zeal on the spot, not worried about decrep. Fight is approx 10 - 15 seconds.
Second wave. Again, grin and bear decrepify. Zeal untill all are half hit points then swap to stone crusher to finish. Use charge to finish skeleton stragglers. About 45 seconds. Of the 5 waves, these by far are the hardest due to them being stationary and Baal bombing my pally with decrep.
Third wave. Entice down the map away from baal. If unsuccessful within 10 seconds, go in and zeal. I just use Schaefers as they go down easily. Hydra's no problem. 20-30 seconds.
Fourth and fifth wave. Again entice down the map away from decrep range. Zeal with schaefers then swap to stone crusher to finish. 20-30 seconds. These guys are easy as they rarely hit my pallies high defence.

Baal. Run around and charge attack. Try to get back towards edges to avoid knock back. Half hit points with schaefers then swap to stone crusher. around 50 seconds.

So on average, assuming a decent array of monsters I'm averaging 5 minutes 20 seconds to 5 minutes 45 seconds.
Toss in a bit of trouble from excessive monsters on any map for run thru and clear and a few OK's in the throne room, (enough to be careful with, too many I abandon) and my times are going up to 6 minutes, even 7.

Best run. 5 minutes 5 seconds.
Worst run. 7 minutes 15 seconds.

Run abandons. So far averaging 1 run in every 4.625 but this really varies. (37 runs, 8 abandon) The sample amount is probably not big enough to tell properly.
No deaths so far.

On another note, what about the finds? So far my pally has found three Silks of the victors so far from this map seed. Is anybody else finding this item in quantities?

[nex]

Fastest recorded run: 2:55
Slowest recorded run: 4:45

H4x :tongue:


IK Barbs are slow and useless. I don't know why everyone thinks they're any good. :wink3:

Because girls like the glow... it's good enough reason :tongue: http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5351449&postcount=4

I probably haven't done enough runs to get most accurate results, but my Grief/Fortitude/Exile zealot w/ Might merc (though bloody moron always gets lost so I lose his aura) needs ~4.5 minutes (throne clearing on p1, minions waves on p8, ball p3). I guess I'm doing something wrong, I'm curious to see how other grief fanatic zealots are doing :smiley:

[jrlafrance]

There are only a couple of "results" posted her, but come on DC! Do you always have to 3-up (1-up isn't even close) everyone? Sub 3 minute run in HC? Averaging 3:43 per run in HC? Just plain sick.

As for me, I didn't have a chance to play this weekend, but while trying different gear setups (and on my map, before joining Asmo's game), I was averaging 6 minutes. In the 5 runs I did, I had one death (which I recovered my body, so average went way up).

[DX-Crawler]

One thing with DC is the infinity combined with holy shock means that he prolly dont have to hit the skeletons in wave they prolly die from the pulse, and enigma makes him teleport so his merc aura never leaves the targets.

Done 12 runs sofar and times are

5.49
5.46
5.38
5.31
4.56
5.02
5.34
5.54
7.01 Merc died
5.25
6.32 PI Blood Lord couldnt break it with Amp damage
6.04

Gives an average of 5.56

DX

[Liquid_Evil]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
RibGriller Frenzy 90 xxxx xxxx Will post later
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
Colony WW Barb 91
nubikoen WW Barb 92
Ray Patean Wolfbarb 95
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter 87
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter 96
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90
Gabriel74 Tesladin
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
nepeta Titan Wolf 88 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186
sablast Fury Druid 94
sablast Fury/Rabies 95
Liquid Evil Mauler 89 5:25 6:35 http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feaststats2sa4.jpg
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
DX Wolfbarb 97


Here are my Werebear's times after 25 runs.


6:38
5:57
5:47
6:51
6:36
7:11
6:07
5:55
6:49
6:44
6:52
6:42
7:15
6:34
7:01
7:33
6:51
5:28
7:44
8:14
7:05
5:53
7:00
6:01
5:25

Fastest- 5:25
Slowest- 8:14
Average- 6:35
Deaths- None (a very safe character actually)

Not extremely quick, but for a single-click character with no Life Tap, I think he did fairly well. In fact, I might even go so far as to say he was probably the best werebear entered in this. :wink3: He was lvl 89 for the majority of the runs and would continue to shave time off his runs as he leveled further. Here (http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feaststats2sa4.jpg) are his stats.

[nepeta]

Missed the hosting of the seed, didn't refresh the thread enough, am terribly ashamed. Any chance anyone could host it for me just once more?

[jrlafrance]

One thing with DC is the infinity combined with holy shock means that he prolly dont have to hit the skeletons in wave they prolly die from the pulse, and enigma makes him teleport so his merc aura never leaves the targets.

This is the part of this test that I expressed some concern with earlier. I wouldn't be too surprised if it happens in the first wave also.

[Corrupted]

It doesn't, the pulse damage is awful even with slvl 12 conviction since it's p8.

Since he's not around I might aswell give you the gear since I designed it :badteeth:

'Crescent Moon' Phase Blade
'Exile' Sacred Targe
Griffon's Eye [Amber jewel of fervor]
'Chains of Honor' Dusk Shroud
Crafted gloves with 20% IAS, 10% CB, etc.
Arachnid Mesh
Rare boots with resistances
Highlord's Wrath
Ravenfrost
Nature's Peace

The charms shouldn't be too hard to guess :rolleyes:

[nepeta]

Thyad, my gratitude extends to thee, thou haveth honoured the SPF ;)

[nepeta]

Got the seed from Thyad, did a first 3 runs, results:
10:25
11:37
12:47

I am not happy with the games I played, it takes me 3 minutes just to get to the throne room and clear it. Then, Wave 2 is a pest due to no leech for the most of it, W4 because I get swarmed and W4/5 with aura's or curse just take too long.
I will retailor my wolf a bit, there isn't much room as it's a titan wolf, but I think I'll swap the amulet (now a rare) for Highlord's, the gloved (Bloodfist) for something with mana leech. The latter swap because manaburn critters tend to be a bummer, and continuously stressed play like a baal run will drain my 300 pt mana pool, even at 2/fury.
Timeframe permitting, I'll level him some more, although even as 87 is a tad low for Baal, it's mainly for the merc.

I'll be back, now to bed ;)

xxx

nep

PS: DC=HAX (Can't stress this enough I think.)

[Cattleya]

Got the seed from Thyad, did a first 3 runs, results:
I hate to feel like I'm repeating myself ad nauseum here, but I need to reiterate here that if you shared a map any other way than by joining the MP game that was originally set up, it is a significant problem for the trade and MP pool. (As I've explained in previous posts in this thread.) That's why DC ended up with his own map. This will need to be resolved before you can continue to trade and MP.

As a lover of melee characters, I'm very interested in the results, but I won't let the rules change about what constitutes abuse of the seed command for one experiment.

[Thyiad]

I set up an MP game for Nep to join. I got the seed by joining the game MP that was set up.

I am not stupid enough to do it any other way. I am quite clear on the Mod's thoughts on this and I thought THAT was how you wanted it done.

Any questions. PM me. I'm hosting an MP now so you better tell me if that is a problem.

Edit: A PM to me would have been a better idea IMNSHO.

[jrlafrance]

I hate to feel like I'm repeating myself ad nauseum here, but I need to reiterate here that if you shared a map any other way than by joining the MP game that was originally set up, it is a significant problem for the trade and MP pool. (As I've explained in previous posts in this thread.) That's why DC ended up with his own map. This will need to be resolved before you can continue to trade and MP.

As a lover of melee characters, I'm very interested in the results, but I won't let the rules change about what constitutes abuse of the seed command for one experiment.

If Thyiad got the seed from Asmo from joining his MP game, then nepeta joined a game hosted by Thyiad, how is that abusing the seed command? Noone has had to enter the -seed command for nepeta to obtain the same seed as Asmo. I'm not trying to stir up any problems, I'm just trying to understand how this is spun into abuse.

[Cattleya]

If Thyiad got the seed from Asmo from joining his MP game, then nepeta joined a game hosted by Thyiad, how is that abusing the seed command? Noone has had to enter the -seed command for nepeta to obtain the same seed as Asmo. I'm not trying to stir up any problems, I'm just trying to understand how this is spun into abuse.
If Thyiad hosted a game for nepeta, Thyiad would have lost her map. (As for someone hosting a game with a known seed and the seed command active, that is abuse of the seed command as I mentioned here (http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5348204&postcount=95).)

[Thyiad]

Cat you *still* haven't directly asked me the question.

I joined the originally hosted game. I hosted a game with the same char. If that loses my map - and I decided I can't solo Baal with that char hence the reason I am not involved then there IS NO ISSUE.

A PM to me and Nep - asking Nep the map they have is the same as the directions posted. Judging by their times then I don't think they have and I made a mistake by thinking hosting the game would keep the map. Instead you have dragged this thread into a map seed question.

That's what I did - if you have a problem with that then I STILL say you should PM me and Nep.

[DarkChaos]

It doesn't, the pulse damage is awful even with slvl 12 conviction since it's p8.

Since he's not around I might aswell give you the gear since I designed it :badteeth:

'Crescent Moon' Phase Blade
'Exile' Sacred Targe
Griffon's Eye [Amber jewel of fervor]
'Chains of Honor' Dusk Shroud
Crafted gloves with 20% IAS, 10% CB, etc.
Arachnid Mesh
Rare boots with resistances
Highlord's Wrath
Ravenfrost
Nature's Peace

The charms shouldn't be too hard to guess :rolleyes:

Close.

Replace Nature's Peace with Bul-Kathos' Wedding Band. Redemption is plenty for wave 2 not to revive anything. (save very rarely). For those that can't guess the easy-to-guess charms, it's 8x Offensive Lifers, 7x Lightning Damage/Life SC's, and 7x Lightning Resist/Life SC's.

And for those wondering, it's a Tesladin variant I thought might work for Baal.

20 Holy Shock
20 Resist Lightning
20 Salvation
20 FoH
1 Holy Shield
1 Redemption
10 points left over (If I'm remembering right)

I might go ahead and dump the remaining points in Holy Bolt to synergize the FoH bolts. This char could have a fully synergized FoH if someone used a .09 CtA in a Scepter with +Holy Shield, +Redemption, (and maybe +Vigor) instead of a Crystal Sword like I use to save the points needed to get to those. The character has plenty of +skills, which makes FoH a reasonable killer on p1, and is a sure way to deal with OK's (I don't actually die from IM instantly anyways because of low physical damage, but it still hurts somewhat)

I was actually amazed to see my run times so fast... I finally decided to stop putting off making (or attempting to) make a melee 99er and try one, expecting run times around 4:00-5:00 minutes, which are still within reason. I was pleasantly surprised to have run times even a bit faster than my Assassin's! (pre-RWM)

The char works like a charm, and is really safe as far as HC melee chars go. I can handle Conviction/LR mass gloams no problem (have on multiple occasions) and along with the merc I can tank Lister's pack with any combination of mods and auras.

@jrla: Sub 3-minute run isn't a first for me, by the way. My Blizzballer (vanilla, at that) averaged just over 3 minutes per run, and my Hammerdin has done a couple of amazing 2:30ish runs.

2:55 with this one is definitely a rare fluke though... No monsters in the way to get a clear path to charge to Throne... no monsters in the throne room... all of Baal's minions spawning with easy mods and stupid AI like Bartuc not massing hydras to slow me down... and Baal himself not teleporting and casting spells much (and a few lucky CBs)

I should note, by the way, that my map is somewhat better than Asmo's hosted map. Grogs showed me a screenshot of it and mine is definitely better, though nowhere near perfect (like Kefir's).

One character I'd love to try for this would be a Grief/Beast Whirler, with Berserk for IM (though it's still somewhat dangerous) but I'd need another Ber and another Lo for that, so it'll have to wait till I get to farming LK again sometime. A fanatic Zealot with CB would be really fast, likely faster than mine in killing speed, but the IM is a huge problem.

[Cattleya]

Cat you *still* haven't directly asked me the question.

I joined the originally hosted game. I hosted a game with the same char. If that loses my map - and I decided I can't solo Baal with that char hence the reason I am not involved then there IS NO ISSUE.

A PM to me and Nep - asking Nep the map they have is the same as the directions posted. Judging by their times then I don't think they have and I made a mistake by thinking hosting the game would keep the map. Instead you have dragged this thread into a map seed question.

That's what I did - if you have a problem with that then I STILL say you should PM me and Nep.
The only way for you to have been able to have hosted the map you got in the MP game is using the -seed command while you host the game. I hope everyone is with me that that would be abuse of the seed command.

If this isn't what you actually did, then your map would have changed when you started up the MP game. If this is what happened, the nepeta has a different map, and you are correct, there is no problem.

Now, you have to understand my point of view here. Asmo and I had already had this discussion where he made the mistake of forgetting that you lose the map when you host (unless you abuse seed.) That's when I posted the comment I linked to, and then Asmo posted that he realized that his plan wouldn't work. With that technical detail already discussed, and the theory that just hosting normally with a character with the correct map method debunked as not being able to work without seed abuse, when nepeta posted that she had the map seed, what else am I supposed to think happened other than seed abuse? (I also explicitly stated that the only way to get the map was to join that game.) I apologize if I was incorrect here, and will be quite relieved that there aren't any issues, but I don't think that from the given information, my conclusions were out of line.

I posted publicly because it looked as if my previous statements were being flat out ignored. I wanted to make sure everyone was still aware of the rules.

Edit: I'll PM nep and Thyiad to clear up the rest of the details here and make sure there isn't an issue.

[nepeta]

kisses all around:

xxx

nep

[Thyiad]

I don't ignore Mods. When have I *ever* done that?

You should know me well enough to know how anti-taint/hack I am. If you don't then you are a poor judge.

I am not in the habit of posting PM's but you called me into question in public.


It looks like this is likely a misunderstanding at this point. I apologize for the issue, but it needed to be resolved, and I needed to make sure no one else thought is was okay to trade map seeds, which the posts made it look like had gone on.

Thyiad: When you hosted the game, did you have the -seed command active? That's really all I need to know at this point to clear things up.

No. I did not have the seed command active. I have never hosted a game with the seed command active. I have never played a game with the seed command active.

Clear?

Thanks

Edit: And you should STILL have PM'd first.

[Cattleya]

Okay, it looks like there wasn't actually a problem here, and what we had was a misunderstanding. We can get this back on track now. :smiley:

Edit: Just to close this one up...
First, I made a major goof in that I realize now I missed Thyiad's post between my first one and jrlafrance's. (Which is why I responded to his, and not Thyiad's.) If I had seen that, some of this might have been avoided. :embarassed:

Second: I realize now that I should have asked some questions by PM before my original posting. I think my conclusions were logical, but that doesn't change the fact that they were wrong. :grin: Given that two long time trusted forum members were involved, I should have verified things by PM before posting publicly.

[Asmodeous]

Dark Chaos

A tesladin? Well I never. I mean, never done serious baal runs with a tesladin before.

*Runs away giggling like a maniac to go and re equip his tesladin like DC's for some ultra quick baal runs!

I think that a few of us here could probably comfirm DC's times with our own tesladins. Comparing back to back with my schaeferdin whi is running 5-6 minutes, should be able to substantiate DC's claims pretty easily. I could be mistaken, but is DC's tesladin the only one entered? I don't have those rune words, But I should be able to get close to those times with a well set uniques tesladin. Anybody else got a tesladin to do some runs with as well?

Cattleya

Actually, there was a problem here, It is you! :tongue:

Seriously, I have a solution. How about we all just time our runs starting from entering level 4? That level is always exactly the same no matter what seed your using. Then it doesn't matter what or where you got your map, your times all depend on the final level and our times can be compared to any build currently in this research, or anybody else who wants to give it a go.
The map I hosted I proved was a 30-35 second run thru clear. My pally with vigor runs thru it and around monsters in around 40 seconds. Eliminating levels 2 & 3 wont make a incomparable differnce to everybodies times imho.

Sounds like a simple solution to me. :lipsrsealed:

[grogs]

I don't have those rune words, But I should be able to get close to those times with a well set uniques tesladin.
You won't match DC's times without Infinity. Of those that have that runeword, I know Gab and Dashy have Tesladins... and I know that Dashy thinks his is pretty uber (but still missing Skillers).

Will post my set of runs when I get home from work.

[Asmodeous]

Well, it would be interesting none the less to see how a tesladin without infinity goes in comparision then.

Then again, I could network up with my Avenger. I should be able to pwn DC's times then!

[RibGriller]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
Colony WW Barb 91
nubikoen WW Barb 92
Ray Patean Wolfbarb 95
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter 87
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter 96
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90
Gabriel74 Tesladin
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
nepeta Titan Wolf 88 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186
sablast Fury Druid 94
sablast Fury/Rabies 95
Liquid Evil Mauler 89 5:25 6:35 http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feaststats2sa4.jpg
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
DX Wolfbarb 97


I'm sorry that I can't help/participate. I hope the results come out well.

[DarkChaos]

Truth be told, in order to have the best times possible you should also have some reasonably heavy experience with Baal. I thought my Blizzballer's time was pretty final and couldn't be improved on by the time I was around 96, but strangely the times got a lot better by the time I was halfway into 98, down from 4+ minutes to just over 3 minutes. Big.

Practice makes quite a big difference when it comes to Baal running. When you've ran him as much as Grogs or I have run him, everything there becomes second nature. You just kind of feel it, and the times reflect that.

[jrlafrance]

You won't match DC's times without Infinity. Of those that have that runeword, I know Gab and Dashy have Tesladins... and I know that Dashy thinks his is pretty uber (but still missing Skillers).

Will post my set of runs when I get home from work.

I thought I read all of DC's post about his character, but I didn't see (althought excepted to see) any mention of Infinity. Maybe it was a foregone conclusion that he is using it... :rolleyes:

[Liquid_Evil]

I am not happy with the games I played, it takes me 3 minutes just to get to the throne room and clear it.
Are you fighting every monster along the way? That time seems excessive.


Then, Wave 2 is a pest due to no leech for the most of it,
Why not try Drac's? I've always found them pretty nice on my wolves.


but I think I'll swap the amulet (now a rare) for Highlord's
That sounds wise. +29 strength and an extra skill aren't worth missing out on that huge chunk of Deadly Strike.

_______
This is turning into a DC thread. Instead of branding the tesladin as the clear cut winner, let's wait to hear of other Tesladins exploits (grogs, gab, etc) as well as some of the other participants that haven't really posted here that much (nubi, hepcat). *Someone* will surprise us with an unexpected (yet great) time. It's nice to see the wolfbarb on the board with some pretty good clear times, thanks for posting DX, and keep us updated.

[nepeta]

The problem was, Thyad hosting with her char, therefore generating a new seed and spreading it to me. I think my map is a good deal worse than the one distributed in the begin.

Think I'll roll a better map, comparable to what's regular, and then run some.

As said: I'll be back.

[jrlafrance]

Well, as Liq has said, enough about DC. I did a 10 runs tonight, after deciding upon the best gear for me. Here's the short version:

Beast BA
Grief BA
Fortitude Archon Plate
Arreats Face "Um"
Highlords
Laying of Hands
Gore Riders
M'avina's Tenet (ML)
Raven Frost
Carrion Wind (LL)

After killing the minions on /p8, switch to Guillaume's Face from cube and kill Baal on /p3. Times as follows (10 runs):

6:18
6:01
5:15
5:35
6:53
6:38
5:28
6:50
5:39
7:04

for an average run time of 6:10. :embarassed: Looking at some other times posted, this seems a little normal, maybe a bit high. I'm disappointed, considering the gear.

EDIT: I did play with Guillaume's Face and CoH for a bit, and it seemed to do well, but my overall damage was down to Fort and Arreat's. I need one combo or the other for resistances.

[grogs]

Instead of branding the tesladin as the clear cut winner, let's wait to hear of other Tesladins exploits (grogs, gab, etc) I didn't get around to making a Tesladin in the end :( , I just felt too guilty about leaving my Trapper.

I did however run Baal for a couple hours over the weekend with my Barb. A little disappointing really.. times as follows:



5:41
6:12
5:16
5.24
5.54
6.29
6.37
5.23
4.45
5.11
11.15

I got the 'its after the last run, was doing the old leap + whirl, when I was IM'ed by an OK off screen, needless to say I was dead very quickly.

There were some pretty dicy runs in that lot as well. If you are seriously running Baal then you'd spend the couple of hours it'd take to find a decent map, as it's not the running to the stairs that kills time its having to resurrect your merc along the way.

Killing the minions (read: Lister) with nasty mods is tough as they can get you near dead pretty quickly with no block (but you need the damage, so it's a bit catch 22)

So, to sum up, the damage is there, and if the spawn is friendly things get dead reasonably quickly, but this won't be my melee 99er :P

[Corrupted]

Well, it would be interesting none the less to see how a tesladin without infinity goes in comparision then.

Then again, I could network up with my Avenger. I should be able to pwn DC's times then!

Been done, meet Kefir's TheLastHero (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=425785)

[nubikoen]

The problem was, Thyad hosting with her char, therefore generating a new seed and spreading it to me. I think my map is a good deal worse than the one distributed in the begin.

Think I'll roll a better map, comparable to what's regular, and then run some.

As said: I'll be back.These are the layouts of the map I got from asmo.
WSK2 (http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i121/nubikoen/Screenshot045.jpg)
WSK3 (http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i121/nubikoen/Screenshot046.jpg)
Now you have something to compare with.

I haven't had time to do more than 10 runs so far.


280 sek
305 sek
340 sek
400 sek
315 sek
330 sek
260 sek
275 sek
305 sek
340 sekAveraging 315 sek or 5 min 15 sek

I have one major improvement option (or rather, two.. and it's not actually an option yet, seeing as I don't have the runes needed) - The weapon slots.
Ideally I'd want grief / beast.
I am using this axe (http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i121/nubikoen/Screenshot047.jpg) along with a near perfect DC (http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i121/nubikoen/Screenshot048.jpg).
They do get the job done, and quite nicely I think. I'd love to see how I fade with grief / beast combo though. Maybe some other time.
Back to baaling.

Edit.

There are two things that slow me down.

1. A full throne room.
2. Manaburn Lister

Where manaburn Lister is the absolute worst, as in 'almost worth aborting the run'-worst

[colony]

There are two things that slow me down.

1. A full throne room.
2. Manaburn Lister

Where manaburn Lister is the absolute worst, as in 'almost worth aborting the run'-worst

I'm glad it's not just me then, even if I'm drinking a lot of pots I will still sometimes stop at the end of a whirl from running out of mana, which really disturbs my rhythm.

My times would definately be faster if I had enough strength for a Fortitude and a better Grief, but I built the strength from Enigma into the build and being able to tele to the Throne doesn't save much time. I am suffering from not being very good at actually doing the runs too though.

Here are the times for my first 10 runs, I'm going to try to get more done later:



1 - 4:50 (290s)
2 - 4:25 (265s)
3 - 5:16 (316s)
4 - 4:58 (298s)
5 - 6:35 (395s)
6 - 5:14 (314s)
7 - 5:16 (316s)
8 - 4:43 (283s)
9 - 4:50 (290s)
10 - 4:42 (282s)
Average time: 5:05 (305 seconds)

[Gabriel74]

I didn't get around to making a Tesladin in the end :( , I just felt too guilty about leaving my Trapper.



Unfortunately, RL kicked my butt this last week. had to get a second job, and have had no chance to do this little research project.

Unlike Grogs, I do have the Tesladin (he smokes through stuff actually), but I was unable to do any Baaling etc.

[jrlafrance]

I know this isn't the best place to post this, but I'm not sure where else to post. I need to socket my Guillaume's (set item) but I'm out of socket quests. Can I punch one in it with the Horadric Cube?

[Thyiad]

I know this isn't the best place to post this, but I'm not sure where else to post. I need to socket my Guillaume's (set item) but I'm out of socket quests. Can I punch one in it with the Horadric Cube?
No.

Can't you use a socket quest on one of your 60000 HF rush chars?

/envy :evil:

[Liquid_Evil]

Can't you use a socket quest on one of your 60000 HF rush chars?

That was my first thought as well.

Also, is there a trick to not getting Decrep'd so bad? During the first 2 waves Baal has an easy target 'cause I hafta be close, but for the next ones I still find myself getting decrep'd quite a bit as well.

I try and lure them further away from Baal's gaze, but something usually happens. i.e. My merc will charge in and I'll have to Shockwave (and freeze the monsters where they are) to save his life. Other times they will attack the slow skeletons reanimated by the Reaver and waste time with it before coming down to where I'm waiting.

How long do you guys wait with trying to get them herded down into the mid-map, non-Decrep range? If I could solve getting Decrep'd, I think I could cut my times down quite a bit. Right now I just pray that the pack leader comes with a Curse mod so their Amp overrides Decrep and speeds things up for me. Thoughts for improvement?

[LprMan]

Do you have Grizzly? Baal casts decrep on the nearest enemy of his. Plant the bear on the stairs and do your killing without slowing down.

[colony]

30 runs done, here are the results. As you can see the runs seem to be getting faster the more I do, with a drop in speed at the end. I'm not sure if that's just a coincidence, or if I actually was getting better at runs though.



1 - 4:50 (290s)
2 - 4:25 (265s)
3 - 5:16 (316s)
4 - 4:58 (298s)
5 - 6:35 (395s)
6 - 5:14 (314s)
7 - 5:16 (316s)
8 - 4:43 (283s)
9 - 4:50 (290s)
10 - 4:42 (282s)
11 - 5:17 (317s)
12 - 4:45 (285s)
13 - 4:37 (277s)
14 - 4:25 (265s)
15 - 4:19 (259s)
16 - 4:39 (279s)
17 - 5:21 (321s)
18 - 4:34 (274s)
19 - 5:29 (329s)
20 - 5:01 (301s)
21 - 4:24 (264s)
22 - 5:36 (336s) <--- Grief broke
23 - 5:38 (338s)
24 - 4:33 (273s)
25 - Died to IM from a resurrected OK in 2nd wave @ 1:31
26 - 5:56 (356s) <--- Merc killed twice
27 - 5:01 (301s)
28 - 4:30 (270s)
29 - 4:35 (275s)
30 - 4:51 (291s)
Longest run: 6:35
Shortest Run: 4:19
Average time: 4:58.6 (Just averaged the 29 runs where I didn't die)

[jrlafrance]

No.

Can't you use a socket quest on one of your 60000 HF rush chars?

/envy :evil:

Haha! I'm too meticulous for my own good! After each set, I delete the characters. :embarassed: Guess I'll have to get a few going again!

[Liquid_Evil]

@ Lpr- I don't have a Grizzly. I suppose I could just try casting HoW up there though...

@ DX- I don't think I've seen the specifics of your gear posted anywhere. Can you tell me what you use?

[nex]

After each set, I delete the characters. :embarassed:

So, you use them and then dump them? You wicked person, HF mules are real persons too :tongue:

[aman]

Liq

Im pretty sure this is DX's wolfbarb gear

Wolfhowl/ias
Fortitude
Storm/ias
Laying of the Hands
Highlords
Grief phaseblade
Gores
Verdungos
Raven/another ring

[hepcat]

Will try to get some runs in this coming weekend....haven't had time due to firing up 1.07 again and RL.

[Asmodeous]

Ok, did a night full of Baal runs and found some interesting stuff out.

Firstly I did try a tesladin, basically the same as DC's with upped Umed GA, upped iased HoZ and reapers on the merc. lcs damage was close to 9kay max damage.
I have to say the damage and killing speed is up there, but I found the character far more brittle than my schaeferdin. Lower life leech, defence and Dr's, I had a death from OK's, testing the theory of tesladins versus IM but in hind sight, his Sacrifice/zeal levels are higher than what would be ideal. I can see with the effects of the conviction aura and the other rune words, DC has a strong baal runner there.

Next I ressurrected a rather rare build. The Elemental Zealot. Essentially a zealot with conviction and loaded to the hilt with elemental damage.
Back to back comparison was that he was more survivable with slower killing speed. But there is definetely room for improvement. His gear;

Azurewrath c/w 1-97 lightning damage jewel
Dragon scale c/w um
duress.
My schaeferdins Coa
Highlords, raven, rare resist all 8% life leech.
crafted ias gloves with resists.
rare frw resist boots

and merc with reapers set up.

His damage is 2,600-3,600. Low I know but consider it is mostly elemental with high level conviction and at 8/4 zeal.

Problem is I could really use the life tap gloves but I need a friggin extra 5% ias so I might have to resocket the azure. Can you get elemental damage/ias jewels? Grrr.

Back to my two entered characters.

Maxamillian cracked the 5 minute mark with a couple of maps with near empty throne rooms. His average times are in the low 5 minutes still which looks to be about par for the course. Not bad for a rune wordless build. I wonder what would happen if I put fortitude on him?

Tried a couple of runs with my avenger and immediately encountered some difficulties.
Let me say that aramis is level 90 from pit and eldritch runs, ok?
His releatively low defence of 6,500kay really shows against the two last waves. And I'm having a run thru the map problem. He does not have hard points in Vigor so Im stuck with his war travs frw which isn't quick enough to slide thru the masses. Luckily his v1.09 sceptre Im using for holy shield also has Vigor but weapon swapping to that drops the 50% resist all set bonus as well as the 74% resist all from the shield. I need to pump his resists hugely there to survive a run thru with the blue sceptre. Ummed hoz, scintilatting jewel in the sceptre are a start.
Finally the lower leech speed wont cope with lister and co. Im punching pots like a nut case. I think I will try a defiance merc for the get hit less benefits but without the might merc his life leech will drop.

Still, his killing speed isn't anything to rave about. Don't expect 5 or even 6 minutes out of the avengers.
Im considering converting him to a min damage set up. At this point with what I have available, his damage will increase but I doubt that it will be enough to really increase his kill speed by a worthwhile amount.
While I have the jewels needed now to do it, I still need to pad the back pack with min damage charms. The thought of turning computer number two into v1.07 is an idea. Or I need to accumilate tradables for a buy up.

[sirpoopsalot]

@Liq, I sometimes use a quick TP scroll as a pseudo-teleport (after the 2nd wave, run to where Baal can't curse you, step through the portal into town, say hi to Malah to get the poison healed, and step back through into the throne room and kick some butt). ~3 seconds tops, but you can reposition yourself & merc to avoid decrep (IMO it saves you time in the end).

Of course, you're still out of luck for the first 2 waves (actually, I usually wait until after the 3rd wave too - those guys don't necessarily pursue as well as the last two waves).

[Fluffballer]

Problem is I could really use the life tap gloves but I need a friggin extra 5% ias so I might have to resocket the azure.

I didn't see a belt listed... are you already using Nosferatu's Coil?


And I'm having a run thru the map problem. He does not have hard points in Vigor so Im stuck with his war travs frw which isn't quick enough to slide thru the masses. Luckily his v1.09 sceptre Im using for holy shield also has Vigor but weapon swapping to that drops the 50% resist all set bonus as well as the 74% resist all from the shield.

You could put Tearhaunch in your cube for use only on the run down. It has +2 vigor (and some resists for fun.)

[jrlafrance]

Did 10 more (recorded) runs tonight. Sometimes I would forget to start the stopwatch, or forget to stop it after the run was over. Anyways, the first 5 I averaged 5:56, the seconf 5, 6:44. I've discorverd that when Lister spawns 'Spectral Hit', or 'Fanatical', or both, I'm in a heap of trouble. I try to spead the pack out as much as posslbe, but its tough (dumb merc + no teleport to reposition). I did have one death in those ten runs....D2 does not want this char to get to 93...:cry:

Question for anyone out there. As I gain levels at this late stage, I was thinking of putting the points either into strength or dexterity. Right now, my chance to hit Baal is around 63%, pretty dismal. I hate hearing that "swipe" sound as I swing, and hit nothing but air. Would putting those points into dex help here? Or should I just put the points into strength, and increase damage output when I do hit? Or do the old standby, and put them into vitality?

[grogs]

Question for anyone out there. As I gain levels at this late stage, I was thinking of putting the points either into strength or dexterity. Right now, my chance to hit Baal is around 63%, pretty dismal. I hate hearing that "swipe" sound as I swing, and hit nothing but air. Would putting those points into dex help here? Or should I just put the points into strength, and increase damage output when I do hit? Or do the old standby, and put them into vitality?I'm assuming that you use Battle Cry already? If not then that should solve your AR issues against Baal (I've been using it for the last couple of chars to make it easier for the merc to hit him).

In answer to your question, I'd go strength, but that's just me:wink3:

[Kefir-Tribe]

@Asmo
IIRC Lister and his boys have two kinds of attacks. One of them, which is used quite frequently, is Smite, which means increasing the defense will hardly help. Is Vengeance uninterruptible? Otherwise, how do you avoid to be knocked around by Lister?

@jrla
Are you using Frenzy or WW? It is perhaps a little late now, but Warcry is the alpha and the omega for baal running Frenzy barbs IMO. Stunning Lister can be essential, mostly to avoid being knocked around, and stunning the other waves can be very convenient from time to time.

@Liq
I second that summoning a pet on the stairs is a very good idea to avoid Decrepify. If you have a Naj’s staff on the switch you could try to park your merc there too. Also, I don't bother trying to get out of range for the third wave. Their movement is just too erratic, so based on my experience you end up wasting more time herding them around, than it takes to just kill them where they spawn.

[AJK]

I've discorverd that when Lister spawns 'Spectral Hit', or 'Fanatical', or both, I'm in a heap of trouble.
The good news is that there is no bad news.
The bad news is that I lied. Lister always spawns with Spectral Hit.

I've tried some Baal runs with my 'Grief' zealot. I didn't manage to live for more than three runs in a row, and the runs I did complete didn't go below 7:30. Respect for you melee troopers volunteering for this experiment.

[jrlafrance]

The good news is that there is no bad news.
The bad news is that I lied. Lister always spawns with Spectral Hit.

OK, smarty pants. Apparently it's some other nasty thing he spawns with then, combined with Spectral hit that gets me in trouble.

@Kefir: Wouldn't War Cry get overridden by Decrepify from my merc? At this point, I would only be able to put a few points into it, so the stun length wouldn't be very long.

[Liquid_Evil]

@Kefir: Wouldn't War Cry get overridden by Decrepify from my merc? At this point, I would only be able to put a few points into it, so the stun length wouldn't be very long.

War Cry won't get overridden but Battle Cry will.

@ All- Thanks for the insight and the tip on bears but I'm pretty anti-summons and it would take me 4 more levels to get Grizzly (lvl 94) or two more levels if I just wanted a spirit wolf. I've been doing better about not getting Decrep'd though and I've also been switching out Merc gears to see the difference. I'll be going through a lot of different armors today and probably post it here what I finally decide was the best for me. I also enjoy reading the solutions you guys have come up for other players troubles. Gogo Tearhaunch and "bad news" speal. :thumbsup:

[jrlafrance]

War Cry won't get overridden but Battle Cry will.

Great info Liq! Another question...do +skills help with the stun length of WC? I don't have many +skills on my gear (+1, +3 with CoH), but I could try it with a couple of GC's.

[DX-Crawler]

Liq

Im pretty sure this is DX's wolfbarb gear

Wolfhowl/ias
Fortitude
Storm/ias
Laying of the Hands
Highlords
Grief phaseblade
Gores
Verdungos
Raven/another ring


Very close Aman I have skipped my 4 fpa attack and switched Highlords with atmas scarab makes runs faster specially against baal if I can keep him amped all the time, I use IK belt and not Verdungos like the resist, and I use war traveller instead of Gores, more damage and some smashing MF, so my gear is

Wolfhowl/ias
Fort
Storm/ias
LoH
Grief PB
War travs
IK Belt
Atma's Scarab
Raven Frost and dualleach, switching to Natures peasce when clearing out throne to prevent the mummies from ressurecting OK's

My merc use Reaper's in throne but against baal he uses Kelpie Snare. And he use Treachery and IAS Kira's Guardian to reach 5.5 fpa jab with Reapers

DX

[Liquid_Evil]

Great info Liq! Another question...do +skills help with the stun length of WC?

Yes, but even at high levels the stun length isn't very impressive. I think I'm stunning for like ~6 seconds at lvl 29ish.

@ DX- Thanks for the gear list. No crushing blow surprises me.

[DX-Crawler]

@liq, never thought about that actually but the only reason to have CB on is against baal the other monsters fall rather easy anyway, and my 531% damage against demons helps aswell.

The most boring wave is the second one, they are often too spread out an loads of undead, but after wave 3 and forward is funny since the rest are demons.

Was using Lashy agaonst baal to take him down to 50% but it wasnt efficient enough

DX

[aman]

Edit : nvm

[bill_n_opus]

My merc use Reaper's in throne but against baal he uses Kelpie Snare. And he use Treachery and IAS Kira's Guardian to reach 5.5 fpa jab with Reapers

DX

Interesting, DX.

For some reason I find my eth upped Kelpie to be "less effective" than my Reaper's in slowing down Baal.

I'm not sure why ... it just seems like it.

Do I have a defective Kelpie or what?

I even tried my Kelpie plus a Blackhorn's and it was meh. I'm just wondering if i'm just way too spoiled using a summonerexploder (fishy in other words) merc setup.

Because i've got a Clay Golem with ~ 60% slow and then i'll use alternating Amp and then decrep (50% slow from a different source i'm told compared to CG slow). Once that CG kicks in and the decrep happens, Baal barely even moves much less teles. That frees up the merc stick to be my upped eth Hone and then a Shako for MF.

Great for Baal but this kind of necro char generally is very, very slow for the waves. Safe though. :thumbsup: (moral victory at best)

[Asmodeous]

Ok, a report on Aramis the avenger in Baal's throne room.

Firstly, I managed to fix the resistance problem with his Vigor skill sceptre on his weapon switch and now he is easily able to run thru levels 2 & 3 to the throne room. Aramis's griswold set up has had a fairly major change which I will probably post in another thread, or post here later. basically his damage is now 5,000-6,700 @ 6fps, more life at the expense of defence.

Best run. 9 minutes 50 seconds.
Worst run. 12 minutes 45 seconds.
Average so far. 10 minutes 30 seconds.
No deaths recorded so far.

The problems with an Avenger doing Baal runs.

Wave 2. The biggest problem an Avenger has is with Baal's decrepify. Decrep lowers the characters physical damage and an avengers elemental damage is based on this. Aramis is getting 30 points of elemental damage approx for every 1 point of physical damage so decrep is really sending the damage down hill. Wave two simply stands there in Baal's decrep range and banging thru all those summoners and skellies is long and tedious. 2 - 3 minutes for this wave alone. Because of the length of the run and the merc not being able to leech, you can kiss all your life pots goodbye for this fight alone or TP back to town to spend 50 grand.

Wave 5. Lister and buddies toss the avenger around like a ping pong ball. Vengeance is interruptable attack, so the avenger gets hit, makes no attack, Unlike a zealot. Lister is able to hit the low defence paladin easily with all modes of attacks making this a long drawn out battle and dangerous. The slow interupted attacks plus the low physical damage means that I can't leech back the damage fast enough making wave five a potion drinking festival.

Baal Himself. Even of players 3, baal takes a while to bring down with elemental damage alone. With only 5% chance of CB and no deadly strike of use, Baal takes some time to take down.

mana burners. Being very mana reliant, any mana burner from lister spawn or baal means you need to drink a blue to keep vengeance going. In a protracted battle at high players settings, a single wave/baal will easily wipe out your belt stock. Swapping to zeal for a few seconds can also leech back enough mana, but of course the damage suffers mean while.

The good side of an avenger doing baal runs.

Throne room clear. Most monsters are a one hit kill on players 1 making the throne room pretty easy to clear. If your life is high enough, you can survive a single attack while Iron maiden cursed.

magic find. Griswolds set and war travellers have so far found items making this venture worth while alone, one blood moon elite sword and messerschmitts reaver. Haven't found one of those for a while.

Wave one. The little guys are only a 2 hit kill even on players 8, assuming you can avoid being decreped. I think the avenger wipes this wave out a little quicker than my schaeferdin does, well maybe the same.

Wave Three & four. These guys don't hit hard enough to interupt Aramis's attacks so as long as you get them out of range of decrep from Baal, the full power of an avenger can be bought to bear and they go down quickly and safely.

Running an avenger for baal however is quite fun, but not under the rules of this "research". I did a couple of runs changing the players setting back to one for wave 2, 5 and baal himself and was able to get some pretty good times, in the six minute plus area showing how much wave 2 & 5 are slowing the avenger down. It would be far faster this way than running at players 8 all the way on a exp earned per hour basis.

[Eric Xanthu]

Avenger is one of my favorite classes, and I've been slowing gearing up for one since my restart a while back. What do you think about tossing on some really strong elemental damage charms to keep the damage going when you're under decrep? I don't know what your inventory situation is, but it wouldn't take much space to get a few hundred points of damage going, assuming you have a stash of good charms.

[jrlafrance]

Well, D2 finally let me level my barb up to 93 (after 2 more death's last night, both to OK's). Wave 2 is obviously the longest, and potentially the most dangerous, if there were OK's in the Throne Room. One of my deaths came from a resurrected OK.

Anyways, after I leveled up, I dumped the points into dexterity, and my AR went up a few hundred points, and my CtH Baal went up 1%. I might swap out some damage charms for dex charms, for the short haul and see if that helps with my times.

[Corrupted]

Well, D2 finally let me level my barb up to 93 (after 2 more death's last night, both to OK's). Wave 2 is obviously the longest, and potentially the most dangerous, if there were OK's in the Throne Room. One of my deaths came from a resurrected OK.


You solve that by wearing a Nature's peace while clearing the throne.

[kabal]

Well, D2 finally let me level my barb up to 93 (after 2 more death's last night, both to OK's). Wave 2 is obviously the longest, and potentially the most dangerous, if there were OK's in the Throne Room. One of my deaths came from a resurrected OK...

In addition to wearing Nature's Peace (or Tyrael's), corpses are "one use only", so horking them should prevent a resurrection.

[DX-Crawler]

Interesting, DX.

For some reason I find my eth upped Kelpie to be "less effective" than my Reaper's in slowing down Baal.

I'm not sure why ... it just seems like it.

Do I have a defective Kelpie or what?

Well with kelpie my merc needs to hit him once to have him slowed for rest of the time, a bit puzzled though I thought if I hit him that would remove the slowing effect but it doesnt, to keep Baal at one place with reapers my merc needs to get decrep triggered once every fourth second and that is not always happening.

But with my new setup I have a problem coming down in times like below 5 seconds but I dont have this 7 minutes runs anymore.

DX

[Liquid_Evil]

Aramis is getting 30 points of elemental damage approx for every 1 point of physical damage so decrep is really sending the damage down hill.

What kind of charms are you using? Lots of +max ones or are they more life-oriented? Anyway, thanks for the write-up on the effectiveness of your Avenger.
______________
DX- I'm still looking at a wolfbarb and scratching my head. What do they have going for them really? Why are they effective? Even with no crushing blow you're doing exceptionally well in the time trials. To me, a wolfbarb has 3 main advantages. Please tell me if I missed one.
1) A huge life pool- It's nice but I don't think a godly amount of hp speeds up the run times, just merely gives an added safety buffer. For good Baal running I think a character can work just fine (and this thread has proven it) with less than 3K life.
2) A non-decrepable attack- The speed of the attack doesn't go down once you get Decrep'd. This is the main advantage people point to and I can definately see how an attack speed remaining constant would be very beneficial.
3) Defense- I remember on mine I had about 20K defense and on another (2h) I peaked at about 10K defense.

So...if it goes to show that this build is doing exceptionally well, why wouldn't it go to show that a pure Werewolf would work just as good? They could get higher damage in the form of more raw points into Feral Rage...they could have a backup Fury attack for multiple opponents in non-Decrep instances...they could get close to the life amounts...

Basically the only thing they couldn't really make up for is the defense of their counterpart wolfbarbs. But that hardly seems like a deal-breaker. So I guess is what I'm saying, if wolfbarbs are so good, why aren't pure wolves better? (I'm a druid man so I'm looking to build the best melee wereform I can)

[kabal]

Basically the only thing they couldn't really make up for is the defense of their counterpart wolfbarbs. But that hardly seems like a deal-breaker. So I guess is what I'm saying, if wolfbarbs are so good, why aren't pure wolves better? (I'm a druid man so I'm looking to build the best melee wereform I can)

Movement speed makes a fairly substantial difference for short range characters, particularly for the random monsters in the keep and the first 2 waves where you have to chase down monsters that tend to scatter and run. Whereas a wolfbarb has Feral Rage + Increased Speed up by default, a werewolf would have at most Feral Rage and sometimes not even that. Try doing Baal with walk toggled on full time and compare that to your usual times where you (presumably) have run toggled on and that should illustrate the difference.

Edit: On the topic of avengers, I believe that DnT won the Baal category in an MFO way back when with an avenger. A lot of that is player effort and time invested, but it still suggests that the build capable of a respectable time albeit under different conditions (p1 instead of p8).

[Liquid_Evil]

Movement speed makes a fairly substantial difference for short range characters, particularly for the random monsters in the keep and the first 2 waves where you have to chase down monsters that tend to scatter and run. Whereas a wolfbarb has Feral Rage + Increased Speed up by default, a werewolf would have at most Feral Rage and sometimes not even that. Try doing Baal with walk toggled on full time and compare that to your usual times where you (presumably) have run toggled on and that should illustrate the difference.

That's another bonus for wolfbarbs, but I don't really buy that it is a dramatic bonus that sets it apart from comparable werewolves. How much of the time is spent running to the throne? Not quite a minute? 20% of the time it takes to do a Baal run? Arriving a few seconds later should be offset by the quicker killspeed of the waves.

And what's with your point about some wolves not even having Feral Rage? All standard werewolves have to spend a point in it as a prereq for Fury and most have it on a left click so they can get the ball up since the leech still applies with Fury.

And me walking to the throne as a comparison? Pshaw...does this wolfbarb utilize an inventory full of FRW charms, maxed IS, and a "Harmony" bow? :wink3: It's true that wolfbarbs will be faster because of the innate IS bonus, but I don't think that will be the determining factor in a Baal run time. Getting to the throne isn't even half the battle.

[Asmodeous]

What kind of charms are you using? Lots of +max ones or are they more life-oriented? Anyway, thanks for the write-up on the effectiveness of your Avenger.


Actually, I stand corrected. Aramis is currently getting 17.3 points of elemental damage per weapon damage point. A fair amount short of the 30 points I originally quoted.

Aramis's back pack charms consists of 6 x Combat charms mainly to pump up the holy shield level. Yes I know I could pump his damage higher with damage charms, but then he would be stuck with a much lower level of holy shield.
That is something that I am considering trying out, swapping the six combats for the equivilant area of fine/jagged/sharps.
But each combat charm adds to both min and max damage where as max damage charms would spread his damage range to something like 4.5 - 8.0 kay and I don't know if there would be much benefit, hence why I was going to try it out.

Aramis's set up now has a genuine 6.0 kay average damage at 8 fps currently.

[Liquid_Evil]

That is something that I am considering trying out, swapping the six combats for the equivilant area of fine/jagged/sharps.

Yeah, definately swap it out so we can see the difference. You play .07 at all? You'd think the dmg you could achieve with those would far outweigh the benefits from combat skillers. Keep us posted.

[Asmodeous]

Yeah, definately swap it out so we can see the difference. You play .07 at all? You'd think the dmg you could achieve with those would far outweigh the benefits from combat skillers. Keep us posted.

No, only v1.09 on my old machine for HF runs. it is getting tempting to load up v1.07 on the old box just to try and get my mitts on some of this stuff. I only have v1.09+ damage skillers which is pretty much +3 min damage and +10? +12? for maximum damage in a grand skiller. I think I crunched the numbers a while back working the numbers between a skiller and a good max damage charm and there wasn't much in it.

Ive yet to run Aramis in baal runs with his new 6.0 kay average damage set up so i'll report on that soon.

[jrlafrance]

Finally, some good news. I've refined my gear some more, adding these:

Storm Hand
Vampirebone Gloves
Defense: 86
Durability: 8 of 14
Required Strength: 50
Required Level: 47
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 88
Fingerprint: 0x1b7f2579
+18 to Life
+31% Enhanced Defense
+11 to Attack Rating
Poison Resist +8%
1% Life stolen per hit
+5 to Light Radius
5% Bonus to Attack Rating
10% Chance of Crushing Blow

Shadow Master
Ring
Required Level: 74
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 99
Fingerprint: 0x5fbe7350
+75 to Attack Rating
+3 to Maximum Damage
7% Life stolen per hit
6% Mana stolen per hit
9% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items
+1 to Mana After Each Kill

With the CB from the gloves, that gives me 60% from gear, then each successful swing from Beast gives me 80% CB. I also added this (replacing a poison sc and a shimmering sc):

Fine Large Charm of Dexterity
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 14
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 81
Fingerprint: 0xc9b162d8
+5 to Dexterity
+16 to Attack Rating
+3 to Maximum Damage

The bottom line means that my AR went up, and my chance to hit Baal is not up to 67%. I'll keep playing with my charms, trying to up that CtH.

I didn't time these last few runs, but I could tell they were definitely faster. More to come...

[Liquid_Evil]

I've done another 25 runs with the werebear and his average is still right around 6:30 but I've slowly been getting better and more confident.

Wave 1- They are immediately stunned to prevent running and cut down. Not very dangerous and takes very little time.
Wave 2- These guys take the longest amount of time. I can't avoid Decrep, plus the poison and large base of unleechables is terrible on my merc.
Wave 3- The only time I've ever died was because of a FE, LE Conv Bartuc (I think those were the mods anyway). Hard to believe that combo of mods is that deadly but I was torn up really quick. The group casts 1 wave of hydras when they spawn and aren't allowed to cast another thanks to Shockwave.
Wave 4- Probably my quickest wave behind Wave 1. I can lure away from the Decrep zone, stun them, and carve up the Decrep'd ones first. Never any troubles.
Wave 5- This wave is a repeat of Wave 4 basically. No problems unless Lister is PI, but even then its more time consuming than deadly.

A Holy Freeze spawn is always annoying but even more so when I'm already Decrep'd. Basically I swing about as quickly as Paris Hilton thinks. Mana burn isn't a bad mod as Hunger keeps the bulb filled regardless. OK's aren't a huge problem either as I can Shockwave and single them out. Once when I had Iron Maiden cast on me, I Hungered a monster. It transformed me back into a human (wereform druids always transform back to human before dying) but with full life. It was odd but just helps to dispell that myth that Hunger is IM proof.

This batch of runs yielded improvements on all fronts.
Fastest- 5:16
Slowest- 7:50
Average- 6:30

I swapped out several different setups on the merc before finally deciding that I liked this one about the best. (20% PDR, Decrep, max resists, 27% life leech, 15% CB)
Vampgaze s/Um
eReapers s/Amn
ebugged "Duress" Wirefleece

[Asmodeous]

Liquid_evil

Ok, I tried swapping out 5 of my combat skillers for five fine grand skillers with a total of +51 to max damage. damage changed from 5097-6973 (6035 av) to 4868-7537 (6202 av). However his defence dropped 800 points and the shield blocking chance dropped to 70% So aramis would be hit more often which I don't think is worth while for the extra 160 damage average.

I posted a thread detailing his set up here;

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=545275

[DX-Crawler]

Well liq I was a bit stunned to when I noticed how good they. Another point is weapon mastery which gives more damage and AR pure wolves dont have that. And with grief and the items I listed I do an damage of, this was some time ago since I cant seem to find the damage calc

3358-4470 damage
5217-6930 to demons

65% Critical strike
4982-6621 damage
7746-10278 to demons

And that is without my Amp damage on Atma's Scarab or Decrepify on reaper's toll

Well not many runs but 29 done sofar need to stop playing oblivion

Best one is still 4.56
the worse is 7.01
Average time: 5.36 minutes

DX

[Liquid_Evil]

Thanks for trying that Asmo, it was nice to see (I commented in that thread). And DX, thanks for posting your stats as well. I think a lot of Baal runs is practice (and obviously you've had a lot). Your chance to hit must be leagues better than mine. What's the fpa with Grief? That probably makes a difference too.

I figured out my werebear's fully charged Maul damage with Might merc, I'm getting a number just slightly lower than my LCS somehow but here it is:

6 fpa Maul, 5 fpa Hunger
Damage: 4038-15736
Damage vs Undead: 4548-17740
Damage vs Demons: 4962-19369

64% Deadly Strike
Effective Damage: 6558-25647
Effective Damage vs Undead: 7394-28933
Effective Damage vs Demons: 8073-31605

50% Crushing Blow
3K life
"Max" resists (75, 80, 74, 75)
7 frame FHR
10K Maul AR, 9K Hunger AR <---This is an area I probably need to improve

How much AR do you guys usually run? I think I'm at a 72-73% cth Baal but it certainly feels like I whiff a lot. I also borrowed a beta Cresent Moon (20% ctc static) from Ray Patean for the weapon switch and it definately helps.

I can feel myself handling Baal better just with the ~50 runs under my belt since the start of this. Experience and character level play a much bigger part than I originally thought. I think that's the deciding factor on a lot of these run times.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It was a fun read and I'm glad I got to see some of the l33test melee'ers in SP. There were some impressive times, some elegant solutions to IM, some great optimization discussions and some just downright sick characters. :thumbsup:

[Liquid_Evil]

A thought just occurred to me.

Could a melee Baal runner benefit from Corpsemourn armor?

Defense: 1127-1262 (varies)(Base Defense: 417-450)
Required Level: 55
Required Strength: 170
Durability: 60
+150-180% Enhanced Defense (varies)
Level 5 Corpse Explosion (40 Charges)
Adds 12-36 Fire Damage
6% Chance To Cast Level 2 Iron Maiden When Struck
Cold Resist +35%
+10 To Vitality
+8 To Strength

lvl 5 CE= 19 mana cost, 4 yards, 60-100% corpse life damage.

It would work the best on a character that could hit quickly to trigger Amp (not a whirlwind barb) and then could cast CE as soon as one of the monsters dropped (not a wereform druid). Building Atma's Scarab into the ammy slot, a mean rare with % ctc Amp, or Lacertor weapon to get Amplify damage going. It looks most suited to a zealot, but it's definately something to think about. What are some of the other thoughts on this idea? The range isn't spectacular but CE is a pretty awesome skill and 40 charges would be more than enough for a Baal run.

[Ashmer Amadeus]

@Liq above: Nothing like thinking outside the box. I wonder though, with the charges, how expensive are they? They may be expensive enough to where you are required to pick up and sell stuff to repair the charges. Maybe not every run, where there are 40 charges, but still some runs. I'm wondering if the having to pick stuff up, sell and repair costs as much time as have the CE in the first place will save you. I know you don't need to CE everything, but if your using all the charges every third run, will you still be ahead on time?

[jrlafrance]

A thought just occurred to me.:laughing:


Could a melee Baal runner benefit from Corpsemourn armor?

Defense: 1127-1262 (varies)(Base Defense: 417-450)
Required Level: 55
Required Strength: 170
Durability: 60
+150-180% Enhanced Defense (varies)
Level 5 Corpse Explosion (40 Charges)
Adds 12-36 Fire Damage
6% Chance To Cast Level 2 Iron Maiden When Struck
Cold Resist +35%
+10 To Vitality
+8 To Strength

lvl 5 CE= 19 mana cost, 4 yards, 60-100% corpse life damage.

It would work the best on a character that could hit quickly to trigger Amp (not a whirlwind barb) and then could cast CE as soon as one of the monsters dropped (not a wereform druid). Building Atma's Scarab into the ammy slot, a mean rare with % ctc Amp, or Lacertor weapon to get Amplify damage going. It looks most suited to a zealot, but it's definately something to think about. What are some of the other thoughts on this idea? The range isn't spectacular but CE is a pretty awesome skill and 40 charges would be more than enough for a Baal run.

IMO, I would only use it on waves 2 and 5. Wave 2 would be hard to use because the skellies spread out. Wave five wouldn't be bad to use it though. All other waves go down quickly enough for me.

On a side note, I'm gonna swap out Demon's Limb for a Resonate hand axe on switch, and that should take care of my AR problems. If slvl23 Enchant adds +218% AR, and my AR is, say 6500, would that make it 20k AR? or 14k?

[DarkChaos]

Repairing every run or every other run is enough of a reason not to use it. 4 yards isn't much either, and you're missing out on very powerful stats from armor. Treachery, CoH, Fortitude...

[Kefir-Tribe]

@Liq
CE doesn't scale with player settings IIRC, so it would just be useful clearing bodies. Or do you have anything else in mind?

@jrl
That depends on how much base AR you have of course. Give it a try. :thumbsup:

[jrlafrance]

@jrl
That depends on how much base AR you have of course. Give it a try. :thumbsup:

Well, I just figured it out, my base with no gear or charms) AR is a pitiful 215 based on this (http://strategy.diabloii.net/news.php?id=551#Base%20Attack%20Rating) information. Is enchant based on your base AR? If so, it'll only raise my AR 400 points or so (~6900 I think to ~7300).

As Liq said, I also hate whiffing. :hanky:

[nex]

Well, I just figured it out, my base with no gear or charms) AR is a pitiful 215

Enchant will also increase AR you get from charms, raven frost and every other source of AR, not only base AR.

[Liquid_Evil]

@Liq
CE doesn't scale with player settings IIRC, so it would just be useful clearing bodies. Or do you have anything else in mind?

So that means when I use /players 8 and the life of the monsters sky rockets, the life of the dead monsters that Corpse Explosion explodes is still treated like /players 1? If that's the case then its not nearly going to be as powerful as I thought.

I was thinking of using it not just as a body clearer but as a means of attack. Amping with Zeal (or some quick form of melee) and cutting into monsters until one falls to CE and reduce the hp of the rest of the pack. It looks like it would be a good AoE spell to compliment a melee Baal runners point and click arsenal.

Running to Larzuk to hit "repair all" every other run sounds like it wouldn't take a huge chunk (just a few seconds) out of the total run times. If you are picking up kill speed with it, then it would definately seem worthwhile. It was just a thought but I really need to know the game mechanics behind it...see what kind of damage output it would actually have with Amp in game and see if a 4 yard range was enough.

[pwangsta]

So that means when I use /players 8 and the life of the monsters sky rockets, the life of the dead monsters that Corpse Explosion explodes is still treated like /players 1? If that's the case then its not nearly going to be as powerful as I thought.

yea, afaik, CE does not scale with the player settings, so on /p8 the damage is something like 7.5-12.5% of monster health.

[Liquid_Evil]

Thanks for the confirmation pwangta. Can someone more game mechanic savvy get me some numbers on the /players 1 health of the monsters in all the waves? Give me an idea of the damage with Amp would be?

Is this going to be a possibly useful damage source or not enough to bother about? Actual numbers to prove points please.

[sablast]

I'm not into game mechanic, but this (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5.shtml) could be accurate

[Liquid_Evil]

Thanks sab, I was too lazy to check AS myself.

Minion of Destruction: 22532-33537
Venom Lord: 15951-24857
Council Member: 11719-19175
Horadrim Ancient: 7882-12982
Warped One: 1116-3273

So 60-100% of those numbers for each corpse pop? And then Amp would double that?

[colony]

Isn't CE half fire and half physical damage? And because wave 5 is FI, and wave 4 is practically FI that means the damage will be cut even more. Wave 5 also has 50% physical resist, so amp would reduce that to -50%, rather than simply doubling the damage.

It's late though, so I might have missed something

[grogs]

Re: CE


If that's the case then its not nearly going to be as powerful as I thought.


In game it just doesn't work at all at anything higher than /players 3. The sorc I took to 99 used the CE charges on Bonehew to deal with wave 2. It was effective at players 1, but added somewhere around 750 runs to the total Baal runs needed to get to 99.

I also was quite excited about the prospect of using DS in conjunction with infinity on my Trappers run to 99. It works to a degree after everything has been softened up considerably by LS, but not enough to make a difference in run times worth noting.

[jrlafrance]

OK, I tried to figure this out, but was having trouble with the algebra part. I have this equation:

100 * AR / (AR + DR) * 2 * alvl / (alvl + dlvl) = CtH

The known variables in this equation are:

AR = Attack rating
DR = Defense rating (defense)
alvl = Attacker level
dlvl = Defender level

What I was trying to do is rework the equation and work it from the CtH side first. Say I'm shooting for a CtH Baal of 75%. What AR would I need to accomplish this, if alvl=93, and dlvl=99, and DR=2847? Can someone please write out the equation for me with AR (by itself) on one side? Thanks so much in advance!!

[Gorish]

You'd need about 9761 AR if I did my maths right, and if I read your eqn right.

The equation with AR as a function of everything else is:

AR = (DR)*(alvl + dlvl)*(cth) / {(200)*(alvl)*(1 - (alvl+dlvl)(cth)/(200)(alvl))}

(wow, long long long time since I posted here O_o )

edit: and it seems I can't use my calculator ><

[jrlafrance]

You'd need about 9761 AR if I did my maths right, and if I read your eqn right.

The equation with AR as a function of everything else is:

AR = (DR)*(alvl + dlvl)*(cth) / {(200)*(alvl)*(1 - (alvl+dlvl)(cth)/(200)(alvl))}

(wow, long long long time since I posted here O_o )

edit: and it seems I can't use my calculator ><

I tried your formula in Excel, and given the numbers from my example, came up with this result: -0.329220169 Not sure this is right...

[Gorish]

Works fine for me when I use a calculator, be careful with the bracketing. It's one reason I hate not using proper maths programs for writing maths down. Either way I'll give it another look to make sure.

Yeah I'll try rewriting it to make it more readable (also you have to use cth as a percentage, it cth = 75, not 0.75)

edit: ok I really hate writing maths in this format, I've checked it and still get the same answer (with less bracketing this time, just be careful about the multiplication and division order.

AR = [ DR * cth * (alvl + dlvl) ] / [ 200 * alvl * (1 - cth * (alvl + dlvl) / { 200 * alvl } ) ]

[jrlafrance]

Works fine for me when I use a calculator, be careful with the bracketing. It's one reason I hate not using proper maths programs for writing maths down. Either way I'll give it another look to make sure.

Yeah I'll try rewriting it to make it more readable (also you have to use cth as a percentage, it cth = 75, not 0.75)

edit: ok I really hate writing maths in this format, I've checked it and still get the same answer (with less bracketing this time, just be careful about the multiplication and division order.

AR = [ DR * cth * (alvl + dlvl) ] / [ 200 * alvl * (1 - cth * (alvl + dlvl) / { 200 * alvl } ) ]

I figured it out. This is that I had to do:

AR = (DR)*(alvl + dlvl)*(cth) / ((200)*(alvl)*(1 - (alvl+dlvl)(cth)/((200)(alvl))))

Thanks so much Gorish!

[Gorish]

No problems :) Good to see you got it.

[Kefir-Tribe]

Enchant will also increase AR you get from charms, raven frost and every other source of AR, not only base AR.
That's what I meant by base AR. Sorry for the confusion.

[jrlafrance]

Enchant will also increase AR you get from charms, raven frost and every other source of AR, not only base AR.

OK, I'm a little confused by this. Non-Enchanted, my AR is around ~7200 then after I enchant, it goes up to ~9600. I thought it would go up a lot more. Can someone help enlighten me here? if slvl 23 Enchant adds 218% to AR, shouldn't that 7200 jump up to~23k?

[Gorish]

That 7200 includes Axe Mastery and frenzy AR bonuses too, so your Demon Limb enchant will add it's % to those, then apply that final % to your AR.

I think anyway.

eg At slvl 20 frenzy and AxeMastery, you have 413% enhanced AR, with another 218% from enchant you'll get 631%. Adjust numbers to your actual slvls and you'll get the correct result, I hope anyway.

[DX-Crawler]

Thanks for trying that Asmo, it was nice to see (I commented in that thread). And DX, thanks for posting your stats as well. I think a lot of Baal runs is practice (and obviously you've had a lot). Your chance to hit must be leagues better than mine. What's the fpa with Grief? That probably makes a difference too.


Well atm I attack with 5 fpa I used Highlords instead of Atma's for awhile to reach 4 Fpa but I think Atma's is more important. I have IAS Jewels in Wolfhowl, Stormshield.

My grief have 38% IAS on it

DX

[sirpoopsalot]

I decided to get back into this and finish what I started.

The reason for the delay thus far (aside from my perpetual laziness) is that I bought a new 'trackball' mouse a week ago and it took serious effort acclimating to the way it behaves. I think of it as the following equation: (hard to scale mouse movement) + (tired/sore thumb) + (/players8 WSK) = Not Fun. On the positive side, since I broke that thumb ~2+ years ago, the strength never entirely returned; a week of this mouse is like a week of physical therapy. :grin:

Anyways...

Immortal Kings / Berzerker Barb

lvl87
Str: 187 (234)
Dex: 35 (84 / 97 on switch)
Vit: 298
Ene: 10

Life (with BO): 3714
Mana: 285
Resists: 75/64/75/74
(much lower resistances on switch - something like: 15/-10/10/0)

20 BO
20 WW
20 Mase Mastery
20 Berserk
2 Shout
1 Taunt, NRes, ISpeed, prereq's
equipment: +7 Combat skills / +5 Warcries & Masteries

Full IK set:
- IK Maul (40 CB, 2 open sockets - oops)
- IK Armor (Shael)
- IK Helm has 25AR/+23 Max Damage
- Ravenfrost (19/244)
- Angelics Ring & Ammy
- Sharp/Fine charms, with ~100 life total and enough FHR for the 86 breakpoint
Switch:
- Stormlash (Shael)
- Trolls Nest with 3x Vermillion Jewel of Daring (+39 dmg / +13 Dex)

Merc: Level 87 Holy Freeze
- Upp'ed, eth Kelpie (Amn)
- Kira's (65 res, IAS jewel)
- Guardian Angel (IAS jewel)


Miscellaneous Notes:
1. Before starting to level this character at clvl84, I'd probably run the WSK a total of ~20 times in my life. Obviously, I'm very inexperienced in this specific area (although I've played the game regularily for ~2.5 years).
2. I found that the damage & AR from Berserk made it a more effective 1-on-1 killer than WW (including Baal). The 2nd wave (Magic Immune) was the only exception to this rule of thumb.
3. I tried a might merc while leveling to 87 - the results were too volatile (i.e I died a lot, but things were faster the few times I was successful). With a higher character level you might get away with the Might merc, but I found on /players8 the Holy Freeze aura was needed for crowd control...
4. ...although, to be honest, I didn't experiment enough with Howl & Taunt. Using these skills effectively could make a Might merc a more suitable companion.
5. Due to my inexperience, my gear was in a state of flux for much of the time (as noted below). I did find that CBF is better than a 2nd Angelic ring, especially for the 2nd wave. Likewise, I found that the AR boost from Angelics was better than a Wisp/Highlord's combo I tried at some points (although gloams were obviously safer with the Wisp).
6. 0 deaths to IM - even while I was leveling. woot. Not that I'm saying I didn't die aplenty ;-).
7. I think the penalty to AR for fighting higher level monsters was very noticeable against Baal. With 2xAngelics Rings my Berzerk AR was ~32k according to the LCS (~24k with Ravenfrost), but I don't think I hit more than ~50%. I could not maintain WW against Baal; I didn't have enough mana leech for my hits to compensate for my misses (10% ML from the gloves set bonus, 20% damage return to mana from Angelics ammy).
8. I'm still not entirely 100% commited to the equipment I was using. Another 1000 runs would probably settle the matter.
9. Using the Stormlash on weapon switch against Baal worked amazingly well. With the ctc Static Field (which scales), decent crushing blow, and reasonable attack speed, I'd estimate that ~20% of the time I spent fighting Baal was spent on getting him down to 1/2 life, and the other ~80% of the time was necessary to finish him off.
10. On average, I would estimate that to stay alive I drank 5-8 full rejuv's and had 1 merc deaths per run. Yikes.
11. I found that the pillars on the sides of the room are an effective place for a whirler to get Lister and his minions to "funnel" into a single attack point, so I only had to deal with 2-3 minions at a time.



Results:
I didn't track quite a few runs while experimenting around with equipment and /players8; I had a lot of deaths early on at this players setting due to my overall Baal/WSK inexperience. I probably did 15 runs total at clvl87 with /players8 before I started keeping time, and I probably died about 10 of them (basically, even an average spawn made it 'difficult' with my attention span). I think another 100 runs would probably make a significant difference, but I'm not that ambitious (i.e. I don't foresee me trying to match any of DC's 99'ers in hardcore any day soon :-p).

Nevertheless, here's the results for the runs that I did track:


19:15 Spawn = good
22:30 Spawn = medium-good (IIRC, 3 waves had mana-burn)
3:20 (Death - very early in the 2nd wave)
*wave 2 always seems to kick my butt - swap the 2nd Angelics for Ravenfrost (CBF)*

15:45 Spawn = perfect (no curse, no mana burn, and absolutely nothing in the throneroom)
*added 2x AR/IAS jewels to the Maul*

5:20 (Death - #@&*ing mana-burn - 2nd wave)
14:15 Spawn = good (2x curse, including Lister, no mana-burn)
10:30 (Abort - mana-burn, cursed, extra-fast Lister; spawn = crap too)
15:00 Spawn = good, but I forgot to go to /p3 for Baal

... I should go further, but this guy's boring - into the retirement bin he goes



So at the end, I'd say it was roughly 15 minutes per run. With a higher level character, perfectly twinked gear, a more experienced person, different merc (maybe) and enough effort/practice, I suspect that someone could get their runs around 10 minutes consistently - perhaps slightly faster. I'd be surprised if you'd ever break the 7.5 minute mark on a regular basis though. If 7.5 minutes were to be beaten, consider that evidence for how much of a noob I am.

As for why this character is so slow, I'm of the opinion is that it's because a lot of the damage from the IK set is from a myriad of elements, and since so many monsters in the WSK have high Fire/Cold/Lightning/Poison resists, a lot of the inherent damage to the IK set is negated. In addition, Berzerk is a very slow attack with the full set in place, and WW doesn't really do enough physical damage compared to a lot of other melee skills. IMO, all of this adds up to a cookie-cutter build that'll eventually kill anything without a ton of effort (or player skill), but it's not even close to an optimized build designed for making effective runs.

Finally, in conclusion, I'll let DC summarize:

IK Barbs are slow and useless. I don't know why everyone thinks they're any good. :wink3:

My name is sirpoopsalot, and I approve this message.
BTW, vote for me! :tongue:
[/politician voice]


____
I'll start leveling my 'sin and experimenting with her... back in a while with progress/questions.

[Kefir-Tribe]

Well atm I attack with 5 fpa I used Highlords instead of Atma's for awhile to reach 4 Fpa but I think Atma's is more important. I have IAS Jewels in Wolfhowl, Stormshield.

My grief have 38% IAS on it

DX
Wow, is it that fast? According to the Dragoons weapon speed calculator, a normal attack takes 7 frames for a Barbarian, in werewolf-shape, with a 38%wias Phase Blade. And rumor has it that the Feral Rage part of the calculator is inaccurate.

[aman]

it is with phaseblades you need 99 ias iirc to get 4fpa feral

[Liquid_Evil]

And rumor has it that the Feral Rage part of the calculator is inaccurate.

It is. (aside from Feral Rage the rest of that calculator is accurate, just use the normal attack in place of FR for actual speeds)I've also checked into Grief-wielding wolfbarbs and it looks like 7 fpa is the standard. If they could achieve 4 fpa then there'd be no mention of 4 Shael Griz caddy (for actual 4 fpa) and other quicker weapons because Grief would be the end-all, be-all wolfbarb weapon.

@ poops- Thanks for posting, I'm glad you took the time. Good to see the results for an IK barb. They seem to have a pretty large following/fan-base, so I'm glad the myths of them unleashing pure pwnage upon all aspects of the game has been cut down a couple pegs.

[Asmodeous]

Ok, my final report on Aramis the Level 91 Griswold avenger.

When I started this project with aramis, he was only just level 90, so the entire level has come from these runs.

Level 91.
Strength 219
dexterity 153
vitality 290
energy 15
Life 1404
Mana 240

Attack rating 4838
Defence 1860/5673 (75% shield block)
Resists (griswolds/Ummed hoz switch)
fire 85/77
cold 82/75
light 85/80
Pois 75/75

Damage.

Base 4437-6085 & 5125-7010 with might merc

Gear.

Full griswolds set
V1.09 holy shield/vigor sceptre c/w 13% resist all jewel
Herald of zakarum c/w um rune
war travellers
string of ears 8/11/15
Raven frost 198/20
crafted life leech triple resists ring
crafted life leech CB 20% ias gloves
Perfect cresent moon amulet.

Merc.
Vampire gaze.
Reapers toll.
Naj's light plate.

Skills.

Vengeance/conviction/light res/fire res = 20
Cold res = 15
Pre reqs. (no points in holy shield area.)

Following a refinement of his set up and increase in overall damage, Aramis's times did fall, probably also due to my practice with him as well and refining my technique with an avenger. These times are based on the new set up only.

Best time. 8:55. (merc was next to baal during wave 2. I only got decrepped once!)
Worst time. 11.15
Average time. 10.10
Deaths. None.

Notes.
My rate of abandoning a run was far more than with my other paladin. Apart from excessive OK's in the throne room, I had to abandon a number of runs during wave five on account of AATD. (avenger about to die) Lister and co are by far the biggest danger to a 8fps interuptable melee build character.
On another note, the magic find from the set and war travellers boots paid off. Aramis found several nice toys during his runs, highlight being a Messershmitts reaver. While nothing compared to what I would expect from my MF loaded hammer chucker, the comparison to what my MF = 0% schaeferdin is very stark who has had so far 2-3 uniques and the usual greens, the kind a player like me leaves on the ground.

After I established the time range for Aramis reliably, I then converted to a players 1 setting for wave 2,5 and baal for which his times plummeted to the 6-7 minute mark. Also, I only had to abandon one run while fighting Lister because they had the same aura as my schaeferdin does! :eek:

[LprMan]

20 BO
20 WW
20 Mase Mastery
20 Berserk
2 Shout
1 Taunt, NRes, ISpeed, prereq's
equipment: +7 Combat skills / +5 Warcries & Masteries


Full IK set:
- IK Maul (40 CB, 2 open sockets - oops)
- IK Armor (Shael)
- IK Helm has 25AR/+23 Max Damage
- Ravenfrost (19/244)
- Angelics Ring & Ammy
- Sharp/Fine charms, with ~100 life total and enough FHR for the 86 breakpoint
Switch:
- Stormlash (Shael)
- Trolls Nest with 3x Vermillion Jewel of Daring (+39 dmg / +13 Dex)

Merc: Level 87 Holy Freeze
- Upp'ed, eth Kelpie (Amn)
- Kira's (65 res, IAS jewel)
- Guardian Angel (IAS jewel)

Was your maul without socket fillers the whole time? :shocked: 2 good IAS jewels or even 2 shaels would have helped a lot. Maybe ED jewels in the helm and armor (I'm not sure how the +max jewels compare to them). FHR is nice but only useful when you are not whirling. What about using shaeled Reaper's on the merc vs minions to lower their physical resistance and then switching to Kelpie againts Baal? The ctc Decrep is propably too unreliable againt him.

Which IAS bp did you reach with the Lash? I think IAS jewel in the shield would have helped more than the little extra dmg and dex.

I have built my IK barb in bit differently. I maxed Shout and left Berserk at 1 point, so IIRC mine has ~11k defense now. The extra defense also helps merc quite a bit. The rest went into Find Item. My barb was meant to be a MF char though.

By the way, did FRW have any effect on whirling? I know HF (and IIRC decrep too) make the whirls go slower, and I was wondering if FRW has opposite effect. I have thought about putting a point or 2 into Increased Speed but I don't remember anymore how it worked :undecided:

I *might* try running baal with my barb, but I'm afraid of IM



7. I think the penalty to AR for fighting higher level monsters was very noticeable against Baal. With 2xAngelics Rings my Berzerk AR was ~32k according to the LCS (~24k with Ravenfrost), but I don't think I hit more than ~50%

Baal has 55% chance to block, so I think you were doing just fine :wink3:

[sirpoopsalot]

Was your maul without socket fillers the whole time? :shocked: 2 good IAS jewels or even 2 shaels would have helped a lot. Maybe ED jewels in the helm and armor (I'm not sure how the +max jewels compare to them). FHR is nice but only useful when you are not whirling. What about using shaeled Reaper's on the merc vs minions to lower their physical resistance and then switching to Kelpie againts Baal? The ctc Decrep is propably too unreliable againt him.

I filled in the sockets once I noticed them after the 4th timed run (with AR/IAS Jewels) - it did make about 1-2 minutes difference per run. I tried the Reapers while leveling, and didn't notice a signficant difference against the minions (but Kelpie > Reapers for Baal), so I stuck with Kelpie all the way. And since I used Berzerk quite a bit, the increased FHR seemed like a very good idea.



Which IAS bp did you reach with the Lash? I think IAS jewel in the shield would have helped more than the little extra dmg and dex.

yeah, I wanted IAS jewels, but I needed the +dex jewels to be able to even equip the 'lash if I wasn't wearing a Ravenfrost. I think my total IAS was 75 for the 'lash, which is something like a 9 frame attack with Berzerk (IIRC).



I have built my IK barb in bit differently. I maxed Shout and left Berserk at 1 point, so IIRC mine has ~11k defense now. The extra defense also helps merc quite a bit. The rest went into Find Item. My barb was meant to be a MF char though.

I tend to add a little variation to the standard build patterns, so I went with Berzerk over Shout. My char was never really intended as a Baal runner, I just brought him out of retirement for this experiment.



By the way, did FRW have any effect on whirling? I know HF (and IIRC decrep too) make the whirls go slower, and I was wondering if FRW has opposite effect. I have thought about putting a point or 2 into Increased Speed but I don't remember anymore how it worked :undecided:
It does indeed make your 'travel' speed faster while whirling. Some people don't like IS for that very reason, but I feel it makes /players8 WSK safer (i.e. you can actually out-run many monsters).

If you don't have CBF, you'll probably notice that your travel speed while whirling is too slow when you get decrepified (unless you add more leech on ammys/rings than I had) - even with IS. The 2nd wave was a lot faster once I dropped my 2nd Angelic ring and went to a Ravenfrost.



I *might* try running baal with my barb, but I'm afraid of IM.
Berzerk FTW. My strategy with this character was pretty aggressive: Unless you're too far away for an OK to curse you, immediately attack each OK with Berzerk and move onto the next OK - ignore every other monster. Once all of the OK's are dead, go stand next to Baal and let him 'decrep' you (fortunately Decrep has a short duration, so once decrep'ed I'd whirl out of Baal's cursing-range while hoping a lot of monsters would pursue me. When decrep wore off, it was business as usual).

For me, the problem wasn't IM's returned damage as much as it was the occasional danger while running around looking for isolated OK's while ignoring clusters of monsters. The FR/W from IS was a definite benefit here. If I'd used the Howl warcry, I probably would've avoided the few problems that I did have while ignoring monsters.




Baal has 55% chance to block, so I think you were doing just fine :wink3:

I also suspect the 50% success rate I mentioned was a generous guess. I tried counting groups of 10 'swings' (sometimes there's nothing better to do when Baal's cornered), and most frequently the connect rate was around 40%. I guess with that much block, I wasn't doing too bad though.

[Ray Patean]

I got some runs done this morning, with decent results.

Stryfe, my zealot/smiter was able to average around 5:00 for his runs. I died a couple times to IM in the throne room. They had me swarmed and I had no choice but to try and zeal out, and they got me then. I was slow getting to the throne (no vigor, and OKs kept spawning), and then clearing out the throne room was time consuming when the Succubi spawned (those pesky *****es kept flying away from me).

My best run was around 4:25, with the worst at 6:30.

Baal was dropped like a little sissy every time, taking around 45 seconds unless be teleported a lot.


My skill layout is typical.
-Max Zeal
-Max Sacrifice
-Max Fanatacism
-Max Holy Shield
-lvl 13 Smite (after +skill)
-Nothing in defensive auras


His gear:
Grief Phase Blade (396/39)
Fortitude
Exile Sacred Rondache (41% resists)
Guilliame's Face (14% resist jewel)
1.07 LoH
TGods
Gore Riders
Ravenfrost (245/20)
Dual Leech ring with Light/Poison resist
Highlords

He has charms to get 80/80/90/75 resists, and then some 1.07 damage charms (2 x +19 GCs, a +6 SC, and a 40 life/8 min GC).

I have a might merc, using an Eth Reapers Toll (w/ Amn), Andy's Visage (Ral), EBugged Duress archon plate.

Some other numbers of interest:
2245 life with BO
Max block
21213 defense with HShield/Exile


These runs made me remember why I don't like doing a lot of solo baal runs :grin:

[Asmodeous]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 84 xxxx xxxx
Colony WW Barb 91
nubikoen WW Barb 92
Ray Patean Wolfbarb 95
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter 87
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter 96
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94 5.05 5.30
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90 8.55 10.10
Gabriel74 Tesladin
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
nepeta Titan Wolf 88 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186
sablast Fury Druid 94
sablast Fury/Rabies 95
Liquid Evil Mauler 89 5:25 6:35 http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feaststats2sa4.jpg
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
DX Wolfbarb 97


I think we need to keep this table going here. Things are getting a bit confusing!
I'll be doing some serious runs with my zealot soon. I'm just wondering if I was to try a fortitude armor on him to see what the difference would be. Anybody know where I could get my hands on a suit?

[sirpoopsalot]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 87 ~14.00 ~16.00 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5380788&postcount=214
Colony WW Barb 91 4.19 4.59
nubikoen WW Barb 92
Ray Patean Wolfbarb 95
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter 87 4.25 5.00 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5383341&postcount=221
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter 96
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94 5.05 5.30
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90 8.55 10.10
Gabriel74 Tesladin
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
nepeta Titan Wolf 88 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186
sablast Fury Druid 94
sablast Fury/Rabies 95
Liquid Evil Mauler 89 5:25 6:35 http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feaststats2sa4.jpg
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
DX Wolfbarb 97


Thanks Asmo, I was going to do that, but I haven't been that amitious. I've added the rough results for my IK/zerker barb (I didn't do the detailed math - more runs would sure paint a more precise picture anyways).


I'm also considering making a Berzerker for this thread (and I've never made one, and we're currently lacking any volunteers) - you might see a "help" link here very soon, as I'm not sure about exactly which path to pursue for him. I might give George a chance too, since I wouldn't have to actually level him and it might be nice to see a 'lash/schaeffer's frenzier to compare somewhat with jrlf's (i.e. ctc static + CB)...


Edit1: Added Ray's smiter/zealot
Edit2: Added Colony's times from this post (http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5360748&postcount=152)

BTW col, what are you wearing? I'm sure you're much more experienced and customized for Baal, but judging by my 'performance' with a whirler, I'm surprised by the times you've listed.

[Liquid_Evil]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 5:15 6:10 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 87 ~14.00 ~16.00 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5380788&postcount=214
Colony WW Barb 91 4:19 4:59
nubikoen WW Barb 92 4:20 5:15
Ray Patean Wolfbarb 95
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter 87 4:25 5:00 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5383341&postcount=221
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter 96
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94 5:05 5:30
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90 8:55 10:10
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
nepeta Titan Wolf 88 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186
sablast Fury Druid 94
sablast Fury/Rabies 95
Liquid Evil Mauler 89 5:16 6:30 http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feaststats2sa4.jpg
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
DX Wolfbarb 97 4:56 5:36


Added some more to the table. I think it's all up to date minus nepata's times (only 3 runs and a different map) and DC's (he never put himself on the table and frankly I think he skews the data :wink3: ).

[colony]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 87 ~14.00 ~16.00 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5380788&postcount=214
Colony WW Barb 92 4.19 4.59 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5384360&postcount=225
nubikoen WW Barb 92
Ray Patean Wolfbarb 95
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter 87 4.25 5.00 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5383341&postcount=221
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter 96
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94 5.05 5.30
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90 8.55 10.10
Gabriel74 Tesladin
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
nepeta Titan Wolf 88 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186
sablast Fury Druid 94
sablast Fury/Rabies 95
Liquid Evil Mauler 89 5:25 6:35 http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feaststats2sa4.jpg
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
DX Wolfbarb 97


BTW col, what are you wearing? I'm sure you're much more experienced and customized for Baal, but judging by my 'performance' with a whirler, I'm surprised by the times you've listed.

Thought I'd listed it already, but here it is:

Arreat's
Highlord's
Grief zerker (340/35)
Beast zerker (241 ED)
Enigma
Dracul's
Arachnid's Mesh
Gore Rider's
Ravenfrost
Manald Heal
Switch: HotO/beta CtA

Damage: 2882-3255/982-3425
Overall deadly strike chance: 76/60
AR: 7.8k
Life: 5.5k

Merc: Reaper's/Treachery/Kira's

Definately a bit of room for improvement there. A FCR with ML, or another HotO would let me reach the 63 FCR breakpoint, but teleing to the throne didn't take long once I had the map. I wouldn't mind trying a Fort, but this whole character was built with the minimum possible strength, and I can't use most of my items witohut Engima.

Another source of CB would be nice too, but to keep the same AR without Arreat's I'd have to give up quite a lot of life/resists from charms. How llong it took to kill Bal varied a lot, and mainly depended on him not sitting against a wall stopping me from whirling properly.

I got the damage and deadly strike percentages from a damage calculator, and they seem to be accurate.

[jrlafrance]

As I tossed around various ideas with Liq, I think its becoming very evident that for melee characters, Crushing Blow/Static Field are essential to lowering run times. I'm my case, getting my AR up to hit at a decent clip was the problem (with Baal). Juggling around charms has helped (79% CtH Baal) me to achieve that. As I level up, I'll continue to put the points into dexterity, to raise my AR, which will speed up the Baal killing portion of the run (which is the longest segment). Unfortunately for me (if I ever get there), by the time I'm 99, the build will be optimized!

EDIT: For those interested, I've got 60% CB from gear (Guillaumes Face(35%), Gore Riders(15%), 10% crafted Blood Gloves). Then Beast gives an additional 20%. So, I've got 60/80% CB on each succesful hit with respective weapons (Grief/Beast). Add to that an almost 70% chance for DS and it becomes even more evident why AR is an important part of ANY melee build.

[LprMan]

I'll continue to put the points into dexterity, to raise my AR, which will speed up the Baal killing portion of the run (which is the longest segment).

IMHO investing stat points into de to get AR is not a good idea. How much AR do you get per point? Not enough to make any real difference I guess. I would first try everything else possible to boost AR.

[jrlafrance]

IMHO investing stat points into de to get AR is not a good idea. How much AR do you get per point? Not enough to make any real difference I guess. I would first try everything else possible to boost AR.

After my last level up (93), I put all 5 into dex, and it raised my AR by ~200 (and that was before Enchant). So, 1 point = ~40AR. It's not like I need to put the points anywhere else either, so I'm not sacrificing anything.

[Asmodeous]

Well I did some experiementation with Maxamillian last night.

Note that for this experiementation involved non legit items, my original save folder was saved and fully restored afterwards so that the "illegit" items did not taint the character at all.

Basically, I created a Fortitude armor and using another schaefers I own, socketed with a 25%/i5% ias jewel to grant a total of 152% ED and 120% overall IAS. I also swapped out the laying of hands for a crafted 20% ias life leech 10% CB glove which raised his CB to 25% overall.
Overall damage jumped to 2,600 - 6,800, 25% CB, 8/4 fps zeal, 13kay AR and 50% DS. His defence dropped to a mere 21 kay. Only 400-1000 extra damage, but I think the extra damage combined with the DS and CB chance Is really helping once the static no longer affects the monsters. I'd like to do some more runs with this set up to test further, but I was pretty worried that a Zod, Death's fathom and a Tyreal's all would drop during the run.

I did one run with this set up and was frickin blown away. It wasn't anything special as far as runs go, but was a 4 minute 50 second run. I couldn't believe how fast wave 4 & 5 went down. 19 seconds for lister and co, 8 seconds to lure out of decrep range and 11 seconds of zealing. Holy Crap!
Baal as well went down quicker thanks to the 1/4 and 1/5 chance of CB and static. The second wave seems to drag on for an eternity and it seems like the next longest part of the runs is the wait between waves.

I really think that after this experiement is over, It's back to LAN V1.09d hell forge rushes for me. I can't believe how frikkin awsome this armor is on my schaeferdin!

[sirpoopsalot]

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=546713

Comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

[Liquid_Evil]

So did you get some insight into your zerker project? (I would have posted but it was over my Easter break and it looked like there was quite a bit of input already)
___
I've done another chunk of runs with the werebear (recording the times and racing yourself is kind of addicting) and my new average is 6:10.45. Down from a 6:35 average and then a 6:30 average. Probably not going to go down too much more but in the course of this thread you can see how experience can shave off ~25 seconds a run. It doesn't sound like a whole lot, but if you save ~15% of your time doing the same exact thing, it can really add up. Maybe in another couple levels and with even more experience I can get it under 6 minutes. Goals are gg.

[jrlafrance]

Well, got my Frenzy barb to clvl 94 the other day. After leveling up, and dumping my stat points into dex, I found out that those 5 points = +250 to my AR. Not a bad investment IMO. During my runs last night, I found a Steel GC, and that got me thinking. I took off my lowest 3 Fine SC's, and put that GC in my pack. Net result... maximum damage went down slightly, but AR went up...way up. Before I was using Demon Limb, my AR was ~7400. With Demon Limb, it jumped up to ~9500. After switching out several Fine SC's with 5x Steel GC's, and 2x Sharp GC's, my AR is awesome! (http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/9726/doolinarhx4.jpg). So, bottom line is that even though my +max damage has gone down some, my CtH his gone up to 80%, so my killing time is lowered. Neat how you can change things, and still increase killing time. I'll be documenting my times later today.

Know when to cut your losses and S&E! (http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4236/knowwhentosepj8.jpg)

[Eric Xanthu]

Nice screenie. I get one of those every so often even with my blizz variants, where I have a split second to say "no thanks!" Had witches, a CI/FI minotaur pack (extra fast, natch), and dolls running at me the other day. Naughty AI trying to cheat to win!

[jrlafrance]

Very frustrating night of runs. I finally got 10 recorded runs down, but it took me nearly 3 hours! :undecided: :shocked: For some strange reason, I had a terrible time with OK's tonight. I probably died 6 times during the runs. After one death, it took me nearly 30 minutes to get my body back, and kill Baal. Seemed like after every 1 or 2 "good" runs, I had to abort 5-6 in a row becuase of nasty monster spawns in the Throne room. I finished tonight with less experience than when I started (but still at clvl 94! :grin: ). Anyways, with the new setup, my times are much better:

5:35 (335)
5:53 (353)
5:57 (357)
6:07 (367)
5:37 (337)
5:23 (323)
5:29 (329)
6:06 (366)
5:37 (337)
5:09 (309) <---ohh so close, it'll happen though!

For an average of 341 (sec) or 5:37 per run

I'll try to break it down a little further (time running from level to level, time per each wave, time to kill Baal), but I can tell you right now, Baal is nowhere near the longest part. Wave 2 it the longest, by far. Good luck to the rest of you!

[jrlafrance]

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 5:09 5:37 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 87 ~14.00 ~16.00 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5380788&postcount=214
Colony WW Barb 91 4:19 4:59
nubikoen WW Barb 92 4:20 5:15
Ray Patean Wolfbarb 95
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter 87 4:25 5:00 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5383341&postcount=221
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter 96
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94 5:05 5:30
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90 8:55 10:10
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
nepeta Titan Wolf 88 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186
sablast Fury Druid 94
sablast Fury/Rabies 95
Liquid Evil Mauler 89 5:16 6:30 http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feaststats2sa4.jpg
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
DX Wolfbarb 97 4:56 5:36


Just updating the table based on my numbers above.

[AJK]

AJK reporting run times, sir! I didn't snag the map from asmo, so I rolled a somewhat nice one myself. I've run Baal 20 times with my recent pat (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=548602), and my goal is a sub-6 run. I'm almost there.

Short description: Barb, frenzier, lvl. 88, Weapons: Grief PB + Death zerker.
Also: 'Duress', Highlord's, Gore Rider, LoH, Raven Frost, Nos' Coil, LL ring
Merc: Might. Kira's, Reaper's, Guardian angel all socketed with fervor: 45% IAS total.

I must say that the frustration levels rose uncomfortably high during these runs, and you'll see why in my reported run times. I've decided to replace my prebuff weapon switch by 'Eth' Stormlash + Crescent Moon. The CtC static and -35% ELR made quick work of the big boss.

Here's my report. Don't laugh. Well, don't laugh too hard.


Baal run times

Part 1: Clicking 'Single Player' to entering Throne Room
Part 2: Clearing the throne room
Part 3: Killing waves 1-5
Part 4: From entering WSC to Baal's death


times | Part1 | Part2 | Part3 | Part4 | Total | Remarks
--------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------------------------------------------
Run 1 | ? | | | | RIP | IM Death by resurrected OK
Run 3 | 60" | 46" | 3.22" | | RIP | Death by fanatic Lister
Run 4 | 50" | 35" | 2.24" | | RIP | Death by 'Might' Ventar
Run 6 | 50" | 26" | | | Esc | Throne room of OK's+dolls, no way
Run 9 | 45" | 8" | | | RIP | IM death at 53"
Run 10 | 55" | 32" | | | RIP | Roasted by gloams
Run 12 | | | | | RIP | IM death at 1'08"
Run 14 | | | | | RIP | IM death by resurrected OK at 3'16"
Run 16 | 31" | 47" | | | RIP | IM death by OK
Run 18 | 43" | 13" | | | RIP | Death by dolls while cursed
--------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------------------------------------------
Run 2 | 49" | 56" | 5'51" | 54" | 8'30" | Many gloams, cursed lister
Run 5 | 39" | 1'03" | 4'18" | 47" | 6'47" | Mana burn Lister
Run 7 | 49" | 29" | 4'18" | 1'11" | 6'47" |
Run 8 | Part1+2: 1'19"| 4'18" | 33" | 6'10" | Gear change: azurewrath -> CM phaser
Run 11 | 57" | 41" | 5'07" | 36" | 7'20" | Might ventar + cursed Lister -> res merc
Run 13 | 43" | 1'37" | 4'33" | 43" | 7'36" |
Run 15 | 48" | 28" | 4'42" | 1'00" | 6'58" |
Run 17 | 43" | 32" | 5'24" | 56" | 7'34" | PI, cursed Lister
Run 19 | 41" | 29" | 4'37" | 1'00" | 6'47" |
Run 20 | 44" | 30" | 4'18" | 36" | 6'08" |
--------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------------------------------------------

Further comments:

Run 8: Replaced Azurewrath on switch. Pushing back achmel's club only meant that I had to chase them. No real timesaver there.
Run 12: Gear change, Fine charms --> Steel charms + Demon Limb, ~11K AR

Average time after 10 runs : 7'04"
Slowest run : 8'30"
Fastest run : 6'08"

Biggest LOL : Sometimes running to the throne takes longer than killing Baal.


P.S. I rounded the sub times to prevent clutter. They may not sum to final time exactly.

[Asmodeous]

Well, got my Frenzy barb to clvl 94 the other day. After leveling up, and dumping my stat points into dex, I found out that those 5 points = +250 to my AR. Not a bad investment IMO. During my runs last night, I found a Steel GC, and that got me thinking. I took off my lowest 3 Fine SC's, and put that GC in my pack. Net result... maximum damage went down slightly, but AR went up...way up. Before I was using Demon Limb, my AR was ~7400. With Demon Limb, it jumped up to ~9500. After switching out several Fine SC's with 5x Steel GC's, and 2x Sharp GC's, my AR is awesome! (http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/9726/doolinarhx4.jpg). So, bottom line is that even though my +max damage has gone down some, my CtH his gone up to 80%, so my killing time is lowered. Neat how you can change things, and still increase killing time. I'll be documenting my times later today.

Know when to cut your losses and S&E! (http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4236/knowwhentosepj8.jpg)

Your very right about the benefits of AR for these kind of runs. My schaeferdin's ar is huge as well, starting at around 9.5 kay base and going up to 13kay approz with demon limb buff. A big boost to My zealer's AR is coming from schaefers which puts another kudo for the big hammer camp. :point:

Interesting that now your barb is the same level as my schaeferdin and their times are pretty much line ball. How good is that?!

[Liquid_Evil]

*blows dust off this old thread* As self-proclaimed forum archeologist (in Toa3ts absense at least), I felt this needed revived.

So did anyone ever get any better at the times?

Find out a sweet gear setup that no one else has yet addressed?
(I was thinking about a .07 Arreat's Face for a barb. If anyone has one, they should try it out and see how the -def helps with the standard AR issues most melee Baal runners face...maybe some experiments with % slow target gear as well?)

Did DC's times discourage everyone else?

Is my druid still the best? (rhetorical question)

Did these guys ever get any data for the thread or did they just sign up to add their sexy names to my table? (nubikoen, nepeta, sablast, hepcat and Ray Patean's wolfbarb)

Just checking in. Feel the power that is melee Baal running. Almost makes me want to go grab another copy of D2 and suit up. Almost.

[Asmodeous]

Heya Liq!

Yes, this thread is still on my mind. I am working on improving both of my runners which should flow on and improve there times.

Maxamillian the schaeferdin. Finally got around to making a Fortitude armor. Gathered the bulk of the items that I need to convert him into his new armor and maintain 8/4 zeal, but I basically have to replace my favorite given to me by doc v1.09 schaefers/socketed with self found ohm for a v1.11 127% ed with ed/ias jewel, currently the best I have in stock is a 30/15. The other thing I am looking for is a lowly aureolic jewel of fervor (+3 to mana after kill) to replace the steel carapace's ability to supply mana for zeal.

Aramis the grissy avenger. Currently running v1.07 for those uber damage jewels. So far have found enough to boost his damage to 6.3 kay average at 8 frames. If I can find 2-3 good ones then his damage will approach 7 kay average which should help his times substantially.

[sirpoopsalot]

I must confess that I've been slacking on finishing this up. I'm not sure if I'll get around to the 'sin or not. She really needs more levels and I don't have much interest in playing her, to be honest.

At least I managed to definitively prove that an IK barb sucks for exp. Baal runs. :tongue:

[maxicek]

Almost makes me want to go grab another copy of D2 and suit up. Almost.

You are back posting, so it is only a matter of time.

*Cups hands around mouth to create a really bad Darth Vader impression voice*

Embrace your destiny Liquid.....

[EasyG]

I just gave it a try with my tornadowolf and had to S&E after 7:42 because of stone skin lister's group, this group will be really hard anyway I think. I had to resurrect my merc 4 times but he is pretty poor equipped. So gonna equip him better now and give it another try.

edit:

Merc died again at 2nd and 3th wave. Lister is almost impossible to take on all together I just keeping getting slammer from left to right without being able to give a few good hits, do you melee listers group without seperating them?
First part was done faster now.

edit2:

another try again.
Merc only died at 3th wave, no idea of how to prevent so. I lured Lister in groups of 2-3-3, which were easy to handle. Total time: 9:10.
Pretty proud to reach under 10 minutes without any (expensive) runewords (except spirit, HotO prebuff switch).

ps: I'm using Defiance merc, Might may be a better idea for the boosted damage, also for my merc = more leech.

[barren]

Woah, this is such a great thread! I'd really like to try out some timed player 8 baal runs on my kicker/WW assassin since no one has tried one yet. I dug her up and she's currently only equipped with pvp gear, I stashed her pve stuff somewhere and can't find it now >< I've got 3 seperate d2 installs on my comp now spread out over several harddrives and dozens of save folders with a bunch of backups, it'll take me some digging but I'm confident I can find her gear stash again. I'm not sure what the jury is on sharing the map seed, but if it's doable PM me, otherwise I'll run it on a new random map.

@Liquid_Evil
I've been working on a maul bear when I happened to stumble across this awesome thread. My bear is lvl 70 with an upped ribcracker and can barely break 6k damage with a fully charged maul and might merc, what's your gear setup for hitting 15k at 6 fpsa? I've scoured this thread to find out more info about your bear but the only thing I've found is that stat screenie.

[sirpoopsalot]

@barren, setting the mapseed was strongly discouraged, so IIRC, it was about 20-25 seconds (total) of running through WSK2 & WSK3 with my IK barb (about 50 FRW, including Increased Speed). You should be able to find a comparible map without too much difficulty, as this one did have room for improvement.

and if you need some gear (and don't mind RRM/RWM items), let me know.

[barren]

Thanks for the offer, but I managed to find a backup in my full pve setup.

I haven't played this character in a year or so and had to reconfigure all my hotkeys, so I gave myself a few practice runs. They pretty much all went extremely poorly, I'd hit a manaburn lister then be forced to chug pots, or I'd get insta gibbed when I WW'd in the middle of lifetap running out. Needless to say out of the 5 runs I did 1 was successful at 13 minutes (most of these was spent exploring a new map), next 2 I died, last 2 I quit due to mana burn lister. I just need some practice, fumbling to switch between WW and kicker switch gets me killed, same with missing the timing on my cloak of shadows.

For some reason my merc is at lvl 75, and isn't of the holy freeze variety, so that definitely doesn't help either. I don't feel like lvling up a new merc and relearning this character so I won't bother entering this test.

Here's my gear setup:
Guillaume's face /w UM
Lionheart
Dracul's Grasp
Upped Gore Riders
Thundergods Vigor (debating using verdungo's cord)
raven frost

Doom Gorget
Amulet
Required Level: 89
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 90
Fingerprint: 0xb3a58753
+29 to Strength
+19 to Life
All Resistances +12
9% Life stolen per hit
+2 to Assassin Skill Levels
6% Faster Run/Walk

Wraith Knot
Ring
Required Level: 68
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 92
Fingerprint: 0xf2d83053
+1 to Strength
+28 to Life
+26 to Mana
7% Life stolen per hit
5% Mana stolen per hit

WW switch:
Chaos
Jade Talon

Kicker switch:
Stormlash
Stormshield

I got my assassin to 93 by baal running, my times weren't that bad around the 6-8 minute range on p8 when I was good at them. PI's and oblivion Knights posed absolutely no threat to me which is why this is the only melee character I have who's been doing these runs. I also had a rare assassin amulet with teleport charges but I have no idea where that went either :/ A note of warning if you want to make a WW/kicker, they're extremely gear dependent and extremely hard to play since you have to use such a variety of skills and tactics depending on what you're facing.

[Liquid_Evil]

@ EasyGijs- What's the lvl, gear, stats on your tornado wolf? I always wanted to build one of those.

@ maxicek- The force is strong in this one...

@ sirpoopsalot- Boo @ IK barbs :wink3:

@ asmo- W00t, I'm glad you're still involved in the thread. Always enjoyed your posts regarding your collection of paladins.

@ barren- My hard drive crapped out and I lost Feast at lvl 93 but he was one of my favorite characters, my version of the optimized werebear. I wanted to prove that physical damage werebears were not only competitive on the melee Baal running scene, but could astound people with their run times. (I think my original motivation was to prove that wolfbarbs are inferior to pure druids) I used this thread a lot to tweak his gear (from demonlimb switch to keeping it stashed and using a beta crescent moon phaser for that sweet static, and a pair of .07 LoH, thanks Ray) and the merc's gear (from delirium and eduriels shell to vampgaze and ebugged duress) and for insight into how other people tackled the common problems (IM, AR, getting mobbed, etc).


6 fpa Maul, 5 fpa Hunger
Damage: 4038-15736
Damage vs Undead: 4548-17740
Damage vs Demons: 4962-19369

64% Deadly Strike
Effective Damage: 6558-25647
Effective Damage vs Undead: 7394-28933
Effective Damage vs Demons: 8073-31605

50% Crushing Blow
3K life
"Max" resists (75, 80, 74, 75)
7 frame FHR
10K Maul AR, 9K Hunger AR <---This is an area I probably need to improve


Skills
20 Lycanthropy
20 Werebear
20 Maul
18 HoW
9 Hunger
8 Shockwave

I'm usually a man who focuses on wolves rather than the lesser played werebear variant, but plunking around with this guy was quite a little bit of fun. The most I've had playing a wereform in quite a while. Throw a pair of Drac's and a fast, damaging weapon on a wolf and you've got a pretty good char; just Fury away. Werebears require much more finesse. They are equipped with great skills and working them all in harmony takes some getting used to. Running at a group of monsters, hitting them with a couple Shockwaves, charging up Maul, another Shockwave to hit the stragglers missed the first time and reset the timer, Maul, Maul, Hunger, Maul, recast spirit, Hunger, Maul...always focusing on hitting the Decrepified monsters around your merc first. The werebear has GREAT crowd control, damage, and leech...its just that all three aspects come from seperate skills.

Gear
Guilluame's Face s/15% IAS, +78 AR jewel
"Fortitude" Archon (25 resist all)
Ethereal Tomb Reaver
Laying of Hands
Gore Riders
Highlord's Wrath
Ravenfrost
Rare Ring with +65 AR, 23FR, 30CR, 8%ll, +9 replenish life
Rare Belt with +18 life, 29LR, 28CR, 24% FHR
Charms: Spiritual lifers, Steel, poison resist lifers
Switch: Demon Limb and "Spirit" Monarch

All of his stats were improved at the end.

[barren]

This is my best Tomb Reaver:

Tomb Reaver
Cryptic Axe
Two-Hand Damage: 105 to 478
Durability: 32 of 65
Required Dexterity: 103
Required Strength: 165
Required Level: 84
Polearm Class - Fastest Attack Speed
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 88
Fingerprint: 0x11be186e
+219% Enhanced Damage
All Resistances +39
75% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items
+11 Life after each Kill
+4 to Light Radius
60% Increased Attack Speed
155% Damage to Undead
+265 to Attack Rating against Undead
10% Reanimate As: Returned
Socketed (3: 0 used)

I don't think it's much of an improvement over my upped ribcracker:
Ribcracker
Stalagmite
'Shael'
Two-Hand Damage: 327 to 488
Durability: 95 of 130
Required Dexterity: 35
Required Strength: 63
Required Level: 56
Staff Class - Fastest Attack Speed
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 99
Fingerprint: 0xc8d04113
+15 to Dexterity
+100% Enhanced Defense
+296% Enhanced Damage
+30 to Minimum Damage
+65 to Maximum Damage
+100 Defense
+100 Maximum Durability
Required Level +7
70% Increased Attack Speed
50% Faster Hit Recovery
150% Damage to Undead
50% Chance of Crushing Blow
Socketed (1: 1 used)

Actually, from the looks of it I'll be losing quite a bit of damage, but the resistances on the tomb reaver are hard to pass up. I guess i'll stick with the ribcracker for now, i'll probably pat my drood with it.

[Liquid_Evil]

Ribby has that gravy crushing blow as well, so yeah, I doubt it's gonna be beat, especially in cases where crushing blow is so good to have(like in high players setting baal runs)

You could build 100% into your gear or experiment with some different options if you see 65% as enough. Keep us updated.

[EasyG]

@ EasyGijs- What's the lvl, gear, stats on your tornado wolf? I always wanted to build one of those.


Hi, that information can be found here (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=592094), currently he is lvl 86. It's a shame I can't afford a better armor, because of lacking a Lo Rune. Also Duress is prob better, but I'm not really a runeword man, because for some reason i like to save up my runes and use uniques.

I think a better Baalrunner would be the twisterwolf with these skills/setup

20 lycan
20 fury
20 tornado
20 hurricane
20 HoW , maxed last

jalal's
windhammer ed,-15req jool (no further ias needed) or Eth Rune or ed/ar jewel
Rain armor <-- style points + free cyclone armor
Highlord's wrath
Dracul's
Gore Rider
Verdungo;s
Raven Frost<--only source of AR apart from charms, especially since base dex.
Carrion Wind <-- style points

switch: cta if you can afford. (not for me)

charms:
lots of resists, depends on how well cyclone armor works, luckily you don't have to worry too much about poison with the carrion wind ring
the usual ar+max+life+fhr

mana supply comes from rain armor and carrion wind, don't know how dtm works versus mana burn.

[EasyG]

5 minutes to late to edit, I wanted to edit that CoA might be better for Twisterwolf instead of Jalals. Those helms are very similar, except CoA has DR%, which you would like, Jalals is offensively better due to more +skills and AR. CoA also helps CTA.

edit: to make this post more on thread, I tried a Might merc on DoubleU and the merc still dies, but he is only lvl 82 now, some lvls will help especially since he can't use my favourite armor until lvl 85.
I'm pretty convinced now, the best way to run Baal with this wolf would be wave5 at p1, since this wave takes like 3 minutes at p8. I will do some better testing later.