Optimal Melee Baal Runner Research [Archive] - Page 2

Schmaleop

09-09-2007, 17:39

I'm making a conscious effort to baal a bit with my Zealer. I'm running a bit like EasyGijs, lowering to players 3 for wave 5. It just makes it a bit simpler, especially if lister spawns physical immune.

I'm curious on character placement though. I don't think i've seen it mentioned by anyone. Currently I do the first 3 waves by baal and dont really worry about decrep, 4 and 5 I draw away and try to avoid decrep.
I'm thinking wave 5 at players 8 might be better if I placed myself on the stairs.
Would this limit the number of attacking enemies or do they have a larger range and would still hit me?

Tbh i'm asking a question that i'll find the answer to shortly I guess. :P
I'll be back with some times aswell.

Eric Xanthu

09-09-2007, 18:07

My zealot is currently 88 and using a Stormlash with an Eth in it. I p8 all the way through the waves, and really only have difficulties in -getting- there and keeping the merc alive. Like you say, I do back up for waves 4 and 5...the life bulb does some dancing and I need to be hitting hard and fast to stay alive.

As for fighting on the stairs, I don't recommend it with a zealot. You really want to be swinging fast and wave 5 has a considerable reach...you'll be taking hits from minions arrayed around the sides of the stairs too. On the other hand, I'd gladly be proven wrong on this: I don't think I'm anywhere close to an "optimum" Melee Baal Runner.

Schmaleop

09-09-2007, 18:13

I considered it as my merc seems to get slaughterd when surrounded, I just tried it and it went ok but merc still died.

I'm going to switch his gear around and try both ways again for a greater number of runs and report back.

Eric Xanthu

09-09-2007, 19:19

What's your zealot look like in terms of level/stats/gear? I find I can get into the middle of Lister's pack and let them beat on me while my merc picks around the edges. He takes some damage but eth Obedience + lifetap means he only needs 1 hit to get it all back. I generally find wave 2 to be more troublesome, where you have heavy poison damage plus elemental pinpricks raining down.

RTB

09-09-2007, 19:27

It might be funny to try this in the 1.10 beta, as +% dmg to undead/demons applied to total dmg then.

sirpoopsalot

09-09-2007, 19:34

If you're finding the last wave to be a little to hard-hitting while you're decreped, try standing between the pillars to the bottom/entrance of the throneroom (outside of Baal's Decrep range). These pillars can be used as a natural funnel so that you only have to fight 2-4 minions at once.

The hardest part of this strategy is gathering the merc and keeping him from getting killed by 7-8 minions while you're fighting 2-3. Teleport obviously works for this, but if you don't have teleport you're obviously not going to be able to use it. Another tactic that I've used which does work: simply let get the funnel setup as much as possible and let the merc take as much damage as he can safely (~75%), then throw up a town portal & step through, say hi to Malah briefly (to heal the merc & yourself), then go straight back through the portal. If you placed the portal near the funnel, the merc will be right there helping you kick butt, you won't be getting decrep'ed, and you'll have all of the minions lining up to fight you... plus, it only takes a couple of seconds to setup, and it makes things quite safe.

Schmaleop

09-09-2007, 19:47

My zealer is pretty well geared imo..
Grief PB, Guillames (res jewel), Duress, Highlords, Verdungos, Draculs, Herald of Zakarum, Ravenfrost, Wisp Projector, Gore Riders.

He's level 90 right now but a remake might be in order soon as i've invest 50 points in strength as I had different gear plans originally, so they have become redundant.

Re-gearing merc has helped a bit and i'm doing all waves at p8 now. Standing back from stairs is working out ok too so i'll keep to that for a bit.

I'm currently screaming at those damn undead dolls. Their explosion hits hard the majority of the time so if a pack of them get to me i'm dead if i zealer unless lifetap triggers quickly (which it rarely does). I let my merc try to take them on but it slows me down so i'm not entirely happen with that solution.

Kedali

10-09-2007, 04:03

Did anyone ever do these tests with a zerker barb? Wondering how/if mine will do once he gets up there.

sirpoopsalot

10-09-2007, 04:50

Did anyone ever do these tests with a zerker barb? Wondering how/if mine will do once he gets up there.

I thought about it - even posted a planning/help thread in the barb forum (IIRC) - and then put the project on the back-burner (laziness, FTW). I'm not sure if it would help you, but you might want to have a search of threads I've started in the barb forum and you'll probably find that one.

But, please have a go at it - it'd be nice to see a 'zerker barb's results.

Asmodeous

10-09-2007, 05:25

I'm curious on character placement though. I don't think i've seen it mentioned by anyone. Currently I do the first 3 waves by baal and dont really worry about decrep, 4 and 5 I draw away and try to avoid decrep.
I'm thinking wave 5 at players 8 might be better if I placed myself on the stairs.

For me, I find the following to work best for my schaeferdin. I do all waves at players 8.

Wave 1. I stand right in the middle of the spawn point. These are very weak and easily wiped out in seconds even when decrepped. I usually clean the map in the final seconds with redemption to get rid of any corpses so they cannot be raised by wave 2.
Wave 2. By far the worst as the core "raisers" do not move off the spawn point so basically you have to stand and take the decrep. You can try and position the moron close to baal as baal will target the closest with decrep. Occasionally it works with the moron getting decrepped only. What works for me here is ctc static as all targets get reduced to half hit points and being undead the damage they take is high from his current set up of LoH and hammer weapon. Once the "raisers" are dead, then I move to clean up the skellies with charge/zeal.
Wave 3. Here I move back. There is a line in the floor just before the first set of pillars where I stand. make sure the moron is somewhere behind you, often if you run right back with vigor then come back, the moron will end up behind you. If you pick the right spot, you are out of decrep range and the pack will see you immediately and charge. Move back a short distance to attract the pack further from baal then zeal. You get this right, wave 3 lasts 10 seconds.
Wave 4 and wave 5. Pretty much the same as wave three. You need to attract the pack so they charge you, back up without getting decrepped and then stand your ground and zeal.
Getting surrounded by lister/ventnar is actually ideal as they are all at range for zeal hits, letting static take their hit points down and DS/CB do the rest. Lister and cronies takes about 15 seconds unless when Lister is stone skinned/ super uber something which can drag the fight out to about 25 seconds.

But by far the worst wave of them all is wave two, as your fighting decrepped against quite a few oponents and then have to run around dealing with stray skellies spread around often copping further decreps from Baal. This wave can take a minute sometimes more.

Cius

10-09-2007, 09:05

Interesting thread. My fastest runner was WW barbarian from what I recall. Never realy timed him though. I liked him as he could maintain high life with mf equipment on.

Out of curiosity is there a consensus on the fastest baal runner character? (ranged, magic, and melee). I'd guess that Hammerdins must be close the fastest, especialy if they have Enigma.

maxicek

10-09-2007, 12:56

@Cius: A bit O/T but have a read of this...
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=558569

Cius

10-09-2007, 13:25

Wow thats fast. Just over 2 minutes with infinity equiped. I must say that I love sorcs but have never played a lightning one for some reason. I guess the lure of FO in NM is always too high. Might try one of those one day though. As to melee MF I'll stick to my IK WW barb.

Liquid_Evil

10-09-2007, 23:35

Anyone experiment with a whirl/frenzy hybrid? Or a dual weapon barb?

Seems like you could whiff a couple monsters to charge Frenzy and speed to the throne room. Shaefer's Hammer seems like an ideal weapon with good base damage, scaling dmg and AR (to reward you for leveling), and a 10% chance to cast static. Could you pair that with a Grief phaser or something to work with Double Swing or Frenzy (to trigger the static a couple times) before shifting to whirlwind to roll over the monsters or would the IAS problems ensure the lack of success? Stormlash serves the same purpose except with a lower base dmg and less AR (the speed might be necessary though) Whirlwind seems like it would be more effective due to it's more AoE nature. I'm just speculating, but that gives rise to a new question. Is Whirlwind definitely better than Frenzy? What are some opinions on this?

jrla had some impressive times with the Frenzy barb, but there was no one really representing a good Whirlwinder. (which is odd) Some barb players (you poor bastards :wink3: ) want to offer me some insight?

nex

10-09-2007, 23:42

jrla had some impressive times with the Frenzy barb, but there was no one really representing a good Whirlwinder. (which is odd) Some barb players (you poor bastards :wink3: ) want to offer me some insight?

*cough*http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5384360&postcount=225*cough*

:tongue:

Liquid_Evil

10-09-2007, 23:48

I swear I looked at that table before posting.

I've been away so long I've started to lose my mind.

Still though, I've gotta keep posting random thoughts in this thread or I wouldn't be *me*...

edit: hug plz nex?

nex

10-09-2007, 23:57

Still though, I've gotta keep posting random thoughts in this thread or I wouldn't be *me*...

of course :smiley:

edit: hug plz nex?

Hm... here? In public? You sure you wouldn't rather come to Moor for hug? :tongue:

Eric Xanthu

11-09-2007, 00:20

The zealot times on that table are astounding...then I looked at the gear. Way out of my league with my "pitiful" Stormlash. If I can get a few regular runs in I'll post some times just for the sake of science. :tongue:

sirpoopsalot

11-09-2007, 00:25

hug plz nex?

Hm... here? In public? You sure you wouldn't rather come to Moor for hug? :tongue:

Get a room.

:grin:

Asmodeous

11-09-2007, 03:19

I have an interesting question/point about the runners listed in the tables.

How many of them are using RWM rune words? From the gear set ups I have read, I see Death, Grief, Beast, fortitude, Infinity etc. Am I the only player who is running characters not using rwm rune words? (wonders about Liq's druid if he was wearing fortitude)

After watching dentons 2 minute something lightning/infinity sorceress and reading people comment about the gear used versus amon's original "immpossible can't be done in SP" but can be done with battle.net rune words, is this another case regarding the powerful rune words from battle.net? In other words the best melee baal runner will be one with the most battle.net rune words?
I have been trying to convert my schaeferdin to a fortitude armor which should improve his times significantly, after all his damage will improve by 20%. But it is interesting to note the difference that the RWM is making with stuff like this.

Get a room.

Maybe they are planning to use the den in the moor!

Liquid_Evil

11-09-2007, 07:25

Am I the only player who is running characters not using rwm rune words? (wonders about Liq's druid if he was wearing fortitude)

Yeah, he did. Though I experimented with a substitute on my chars before I was able to trade for my own. It was a .07 'defense mod' hellforge plate of the colossus with 4 sockets from the .07 socketing quest. (traded from delhomme) After filling it with four pretty decent jewels, the stats were something like: 1500 defense, +50 life, -30% req, +15 str, +10 dex, +25 max, +29 min, 50 Fire resist. I searched all over for a screenie of it (I swear I posted it) Very sexy stats and in game color and style. But yeah...the bear was built around a Fort archon. Let us know how much you actually shave off your time when you get yours.

Eric Xanthu

11-09-2007, 23:28

@asmo: I'm not doing a ton of melee Baal running these days (or Diablo in general for that matter) but my zealot is pure vanilla (although I do use RWM). The gear is pretty pedestrian compared to what I see on some of these guys: Stormlash, HoZ, Guillaume, GA, Verdungo, Dracul, etc., but I can still put up ok times. Oh, I did switch in Obedience instead of Reaper's on my merc recently...not sure it really made me any faster though.

Eric Xanthu

08-10-2007, 17:13

Here's an embarrassing time and a conclusion to be drawn from it: my zealot just ran Baal with a 1.07 ethereal Death Berserker Axe in 8 minutes. 1.5 minutes to get to wave 1, started in on Lister at the 5 minute mark, moved to Baal at 6. Stormlash is consistently faster than that. :shame:

Being lvl 89 didn't help. Fix my accuracy issues and things should go faster. Let's just say "optimum" is a long way off here...

Corrupted

08-10-2007, 17:30

The best you'll get as zealot would be doing 1 or 2 zeal cycles with stormlash and then switch to Grief. I believe it's the only way to reach 5 mins or less with one.

Liquid_Evil

08-10-2007, 22:59

@ Asmo- I finally found a screenie of that .07 armor (http://server4.pictiger.com/img/993619/picture-hosting/screenshot-079.php) I used as a Fort-substitute. I really hope its on a disc somewhere and hasn't been lost to my last HD failure. Even if it didn't quite match a Fort, it came pretty close and had style points out the yang.

@ Corrupted- Agreed. I think static is a pretty integral part to good Baaling myself. Even with my Werebear, I opted for a Crescent Moon switch for a few whacks to bring all the monsters down before going at them with the regular weapon. Definitely saw an improvement in run times. I've also always toyed with the idea of a merc using a CM polearm if you could get by without the reapers' decrep.

Eric Xanthu

08-10-2007, 23:30

I've also always toyed with the idea of a merc using a CM polearm if you could get by without the reapers' decrep.
Interesting you mention this, since I've been running with an Obedience merc for a little bit to see how I like it. Granted, I have to give up on PIs, but for a good spawn I don't really notice the lack.

Dodgydave

08-10-2007, 23:45

Been trying some runs with a BF/DT/DS sin just for something different but finding the going really tough. Most parts aren't too bad but Lister really knocks me around.

Gear is Guillemes Face / 1.07 saracens / Duress / Fleshripper / Stormshield / +3MA+10%IAS gloves / Nos Coil / Raven+dual leech / Shadow dancers.

Merc is might with Tomb Reaver/Gaze/GBane (I think)

Would I be better to go HF and try and slow Lister and co down a bit more?

Also I need one more MA skiller to hit the next kick with DT but being self found it is proving rather elusive!

Any suggestions would greatly help!

Liquid_Evil

09-10-2007, 00:13

You gave yourself the advice I would have offered: HF. I had that same pinball effect from Lister on one of my Fury wolves. I experimented with several mercs and Holy Freeze did help considerably. I'm stubborn so I couldn't give up on the Might merc's damage aura though. Still, I see HF as a *very* viable option for most Baal runners. I'm not an assy man per se, but doesn't BF already cut into damage output quite a bit (some -% or something)? Would losing a little more in the form of a Might aura work alright? Maybe a ~10 runs with Might and ~10 runs with HF to see a difference.

Just out of curiousity's sake, what kind of times are you pulling down on that assy?

Dodgydave

09-10-2007, 00:45

Might have to try the HF like you I'm a stickler for the extra damage from might. There is a noticeable damage decrease when my merc dies.

Could consider dropping the Saracens, keeping the might merc and rejigging to get a Reapers Tolli n there but the AMp on Saracens goes off quite frequently and when that happens everything gets destroyed.

If I can amp Lister quick smart he's no probs.

Times aren't great. I don't have a good WSK map. Level 3 is perfect a straight run to the way down but two takes me half across the map so I pick off most stuff on the way. Probably would do a players 8 run in 15 minutes or something horrible haven't really timed it. Players 3 is about 10 minutes including all the level two killing.

If I can get the extra MA skilelr and go from five to six kicks (? or is it four to five ?) either way that should equate to a 20% damage increase and I could try ditching the might merc without too much damage drop.

Asmodeous

11-10-2007, 06:06

Shortest Average
Forum name Build Clvl run time run time Gear/Info Link
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jrlafrance Frenzy 92 5:09 5:37 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5326223&postcount=14
sirpoopsalot IK/'zerker barb 87 ~14.00 ~16.00 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5380788&postcount=214
Colony WW Barb 91 4:19 4:59
nubikoen WW Barb 92 4:20 5:15
Ray Patean Wolfbarb 95
Ray Patean Zealot/Smiter 87 4:25 5:00 http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5383341&postcount=221
Hepcat Zealot/Smiter 96
Asmodeous Schaeferdin 94 4:48 5:10 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=599360
Asmodeous Griswold Avenger 90 8:55 10:10
nubikoen Fury Druid 90
nepeta Titan Wolf 88 http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523186
sablast Fury Druid 94
sablast Fury/Rabies 95
Liquid Evil Mauler 89 5:16 6:30 http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=feaststats2sa4.jpg
sirpoopsalot CoS/PS 'sin 82 xxxx xxxx http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=431463
DX Wolfbarb 97 4:56 5:36

Updating the chart with my schaeferdins latest figures with his bright and shiny new Fortitude armor and 169% ed schaefers. Looking at the actual times for each part of the runs, the extra damage looks to have taken around 3-5 seconds off waves 2, 4 & 5 and about 5 seconds off for Baal himself. These runs that I have posted are just with the new schaefers hammer/fortitude, I am going to do some more runs using the stone crusher weapon switch on Baal and maybe Lister/ventnar packs as well to see if the extra CB helps take them down any quicker.

Must break 5 minute mark........Must.......

Oh, and happy 1 kay post mark for me!

RibGriller

12-10-2007, 02:16

I want in on this! I'm using a Zerker, but I'm gonna wait til I can finish rushing for a Forti. I think I clocked him in at 5:40 once, and that should improve with the Forti. His current gear:

eDeath CS (340%)
Arreat's (37% ED/ 12 Max Dmg Jewel)
Treachery Archon plate
War Travs
String of Ears
Ravenfrost/Dual Leech ring
Highlords
LoH
Speed: 12 fpa

Plans for new gear:

eDeath CB or Silver-edged Axe
Arreat's (30% ED/15% IAS Jewel) <-- Pending a trade with Asmo!!
Forti Archon plate
War Travs
String of Ears
Ravenfrost/Dual Leech ring
Highlords
LoH
Speed: 13 fpa

I'm hoping that losing a bp will be more than compensated for by the extra damage from forti. Opinions/flames anyone?

sirpoopsalot

12-10-2007, 02:28

Opinions/flames anyone?

WSK + single-target-attack + 13 fpa + no shield = :yikes: I'd be leary of fragility, to say the least.

BTW, is there a purpose to the dual-leech ring?

Colorless Green

12-10-2007, 02:29

flames anyone?

You suck!

I'm hoping that losing a bp will be more than compensated for by the extra damage from forti.

I would definitely be willing to make that sacrifice. The damage from forti is quite significant, and 12 fpa vs 13 fpa isn't a huge damage/time change.

How much IAS over your planned setup would be required to reach 12 again? If it's not much, some messing around with perhaps a nosferatu's coil and/or an IAS andy's visage might enable you to maintain 12fpa, and personally I'd be quite willing to drop an arreat's for an andy's with an extra bp.

Disclaimer: My berserker experience == 0.

-CG

edit:

WSK + single-target-attack + 13 fpa + no shield = (scary face that copy/paste didn't copy) I'd be leary of fragility, to say the least.

I had that thought too, but from his post it seems like he's capable of running right now at 12fpa w/o forti, and 12 fpa w/o forti shouldn't be much worse than 13 fpa w/ forti, I'd think.

RibGriller

12-10-2007, 03:05

WSK + single-target-attack + 13 fpa + no shield = :yikes: I'd be leary of fragility, to say the least.

BTW, is there a purpose to the dual-leech ring?

With 3 hard points in Warcry, all the bad guys are stunned for 2-3 seconds. I just wack away at em, warcry, wack some more, etc. At clvl 90, he'll have 78% DS (76% at lvl 88), not counting the 18 or 20% Critical strike from Sword mastery. I could up it to 93% DS with Gores, but I liked the dmg/MF from the War Travs. IIRC, Lister goes down in about 6-7 whacks anyways on p8.

With the Might merc, he does 6.5k-13k dmg.

The dual leech ring (6/6) has some awesome resists, min dmg, mana, strength. I simply don't have an 8% LL ring that can beat it atm. But with the Death, I don't really need the extra ML.

How much IAS over your planned setup would be required to reach 12 again? If it's not much, some messing around with perhaps a nosferatu's coil and/or an IAS andy's visage might enable you to maintain 12fpa, and personally I'd be quite willing to drop an arreat's for an andy's with an extra bp.

I forgot about Andy's, but man the mods on arreats are soo juicy. This is what Arreat's has over Andy's: +30 FR, +20% AR, extra +2 to Berserk/Conc, 30 all resists, 20 dex, fhr, LL. Thinking out loud, it sounds alot better than the extra bp.

Oh, and thx for the short and sweet flame!

Colorless Green

12-10-2007, 03:13

Leech does nothing for you (if I understand berserk correctly).

The AR is the thing that's giving me the most pause, since resists/FHR can be made up with charms without too much trouble. If it drops your hit rate too much...

Honestly, I generally have the same problem with liking arreat's too much, and I'd probably go for the lower attack speed too, but if you find that you're swinging too slow, it's an option to consider.

-CG

RibGriller

12-10-2007, 04:13

I switch to Conc to fill the bulbs back up. Conc is synergized by BO, so you're still doing good damage to refill your health with 3-4 whacks. With only one hard point though, AR is an issue, hence the Arreat's + Demon Limb, etc.

I just checked the weap speed calculator, and yes, Andy's would put me back at 12 fpa. Although, I'd have to unload some of my max dmg charms to bring my resists back up... I guess it'll have to be a game-time decision.

Asmodeous

20-10-2007, 04:11

Well an update with my revised equipped schaeferdin.

I have been doing quite a few runs but instead of timing the entire run, I have been timing the individual segments of the run, such as time to run to the throne room, the clear, the five waves and baal himself. Surprisingly the longest part was Baal at 90-95 seconds in total.
By changing my weapon switch to a 8/4 fps zeal set up stone crusher, I have slashed 20 seconds off my baal kill times alone simply by using schaefers hammer untill Baal is at half hit points (from the static) and then swapping to the stone crusher to finish him with the total 65% crushing blow. Plus, the average damage of the stone crusher is slightly higher than the schaefers plus the defence reduction is all working to take Baal down much faster. Towards the end I have noticed that my pally is hitting baal more often as I suspect his blocking is all that is preventing hits.

Overall, this part alone should reduce my schaeferdins run times to around 4 minutes 45 seconds. I just need to do enough runs for an meaningful average.
The next longest segment is the run thru to the throne room so I am trying to get a shorter map and hoping to get my times down to 4 and a half minutes.

Liquid_Evil

21-10-2007, 00:56

Since I lost my Werebear of pwnage in the HD crash, I think I'd like to make a new Baal-running character. A pseudo-Bear.

I know it can't be as good as a pure Zealot, but it should have more style and be more fun for me. (And really, that's the point)

Here is what I'm thinking. I'll use ITD from Grief to pwn regular monsters in bear form and then switch to Smite (human) for Baal.

20 Smite
20 Holy Shield
20 Defiance
20 Fanaticism
1 Vigor
1 Redemption
1 Meditation
Rest into Resist Lightning

Grief Phase
Fort
Exile Zakarum Shield
LoH
Atma's Scarab/Mara's
Gores
GFace
Raven/Rare
Arachnids
Switch: Beast/Spirit

Holy Freeze (crowd control) Merc
Beta Crescent Moon Thresher (speedy static)
Kira's
Treach

Projected Dmg
12200-13400 regular Smite
4300-4500 regular dmg (pre-deadly strike)

How can I make this guy better? Any thoughts or concerns?

Schmaleop

21-10-2007, 16:57

Any particular reason why you haven't listed Highlords as a possible amulet choice?
From what I can tell the listed setup wouldn't max DS so it would certainly be welcome.

Ray Patean

21-10-2007, 18:16

How can I make this guy better? Any thoughts or concerns?

Yeah, I know how you can make this guy better.

Make a zealot/smiter :wink3:

Liquid_Evil

21-10-2007, 20:39

Any particular reason why you haven't listed Highlords as a possible amulet choice?
From what I can tell the listed setup wouldn't max DS so it would certainly be welcome.

Yeah, Highlord's is pretty traditional and it has +1 all skill which will help the bear transformation. (This is also part of the reason I intend to use Arach's) His current setup gives him 15% (Gface), 15% (gores), and 20% (Grief) for a total of 50% deadly strike so more would always be welcome.

So, yeah, unless I turn out to desperately need resists, Highlords will probably outshine Maras. Atma's was on there because my merc won't be using Decrepify and I won't have a real way to deal with PI's since my weapon switch is already unavailable for Azure or something similar. Exile is a 15% chance for Life Tap and Atma's would be a welcome 5% chance for Amplify Damage. Unless I am needing more skills, I'd like to give this ammy a try.

@ Ray- Pshaw! Screw that! :wink3:

Asmodeous

22-10-2007, 04:11

Given my recent experience with stone crusher, I'd have to suggest edeath over grief pb.
The trade off would be a higher DS and CB from death and gores but then you would have to IAS it to get the speed back up, total of 60% ias assuming beserker axe with highlords and LoH which probably means you need to IAS the gface and swap the arachnid for a ias belt.
But then you have a killer combo of DS & CB from death, highlords, gface and gores, you should be up around 90 - 100% DS depending on level and 100% CB.
That with your static casting moron should take the runs down pretty quickly.

Liquid_Evil

22-10-2007, 08:56

Given my recent experience with stone crusher, I'd have to suggest edeath over grief pb.

Well, I see a couple problems with that idea. 1) I don't have an edeath. :wink3: 2) Without Grief's ITD, I will have to focus on AR-oriented gear (and this is a char that would have terrible AR), and 3) Without Grief, my Smite damage is going to be reduced big time for slower Baal kills.

I think the main point you're stressing is that lots of crushing blow makes a big difference so on that note I might try and craft cb gloves (in 1.07 crafting, it looks like 15% is possible at the cost of a Shael) to see if the difference is notable and can beat the raw power of LoH. And I guess Goblin Toe boots are an option, though I hate to lose Gores. Does anyone here ever run with Steelrend gloves for the crushing blow (and decent %enh dmg)?

Still, it's some food for thought and outside the box thinking is definitely gg.

Asmodeous

22-10-2007, 13:23

Slower Baal kills yes, but remember that this is about the whole entire run. In theory, if you kill the five waves say for example with Grief in 2 minutes and Baal in 1 minute, then swap to death and then kill the waves in 90 seconds and then baal in another 90 seconds for exactly the same overall time.

What I am suggesting should give a faster 5 wave clean up at the cost of a slower Baal kill. Which one would be quicker overall is the subject of debate here isn't it? Only way to tell is to take both set ups thru and time them.

AR problems? Well that was the other thing I was thinking about. 20 points in defiance with Exile? From what I here, the base defence of Exile is around 1 kay in a decent eth shield. Then pack on the defiance aura when equipped should give you more than enough defence for the job with level 20 holy shield. Assuming 3 kay defence with the gear your suggesting, level 22 holy shield, thats a 13.2 kay base defence with no defiance synergy. That should be enough defence with 75% shield blocking. Though you could adjust the defence up a bit more, say 5-10 points in defiance leaving you with points for Blessed aim passive AR boost which will probably solve the AR problem with the Death.
But as you say, you don't have death, so it's all academic really!

sablast

22-10-2007, 16:18

Though you could adjust the defence up a bit more, say 5-10 points in defiance leaving you with points for Blessed aim passive AR boost

I think that's a good idea, you'll have big problems hitting bosess (collenzo, etc), you could put some points in blessed aim (or max it) to prevent unshifting and smiting before baal.

Liquid_Evil

22-10-2007, 19:43

I know defense has diminishing returns, but when do they start kicking in?

After 20K? 30K? Is there a breakdown somewhere?

I suppose I could split points from Defiance and Resist Lightning for a better Blessed Aim synergy. I had basically forgotten about Collenzo, Achmel, and the like...(looks like some Steel charms might be in order after all)

Eric Xanthu

22-10-2007, 22:32

My edeath zealot uses all his spares in Blessed Aim and I still have a wretched time hitting Baal. Make sure you get a good AR boost from charms.

sablast

22-10-2007, 23:49

I know defense has diminishing returns, but when do they start kicking in?

It is the same with AR, there is no breakpoint, bolded parts of chance to hit formula: 100 * AR / (AR + DR) * 2 * alvl / (alvl + dlvl) gives asymptotic behaviour ( increasing AR or DR gives diminishing results). Since character level is limited to 99, first bolded part is really the one that gives asymptotic behaviour of the function.
That is, it has deminishing results from the start (with more increase of AR (DR), chance to hit increases (decreases) slower.

Asmodeous

23-10-2007, 04:08

Liquid_Evil

23-10-2007, 05:51

Liquid_evil

For baal runs, I like to have more than 12 kay defence on my pallies. This gives you a chance to be hit of about 20% depending on what monster it is of the waves. To get any real improvement on that, to get a chance to be hit of 10% chance to be hit you need around the 25 - 26 kay mark and it's about 2 kay defence for every 1% to be hit after that so the 12 kay mark is roughly where the diminishing returns start to kick in.

I crunched some numbers and it looks like (assuming lvl 99 Baal with his 9850 AR melee attacks) that I would have the following chances to be hit at lvl 90.

15,000 Defense- 100%
20,000 Defense- 97.6%
25,000 Defense- 78.2%
30,000 Defense- 65.2%
35,000 Defense- 55.9%
40,000 Defense- 48.9%
45,000 Defense- 43.5%
50,000 Defense- 39.2%
55,000 Defense- 35.6%
60,000 Defense- 32.6%

It is hard to retain that much defense with his Defense Curse though. (but obviously, Baal himself is the worst case scenario and most monsters wouldn't have near that high of chance to land an AR-based hit)

Defense Curse
Baal can cast a curse resembling three converging needles which cuts your Defense by 60% in Normal, 75% in Nightmare, and 95% in Hell.

Still, an active Defiance aura from Exile, maxed Holy Shield, Defiance maxed as a HS synergy, Fort's Chilling Armor, Werebear's Defense bonus, and a higher than usual character base defense and I wouldn't be surprised to see 50K defense or thereabouts (AJK's similar bear got 34K defense without maxed Defiance and the like).

As it stands right now, I think I'm more tempted to spend the Resist Lightning points into Blessed Aim instead. This guy could actually compete in duels as an odd dark horse novelty char in Bearform and in competitive duels as a pure Smiter (and that fact alone might make me more keen to level him, despite my general dislike of Smiters). Basically a PvM Bear by day and a PvP Smiter by night. Maybe I'll miss the thrill of the old bear (and no fun hotkeys for Hunger and Shockwave), but I think I want to give a character like this a try. Can always rebuild a druid if this doesn't turn out as I hope. Thanks for the help everyone.

Eric Xanthu

23-10-2007, 22:42

Liquid_evil
As a matter of interest, what AR numbers does your edeath zealer have? You have to remember that Baal has a blocking chance of 55% in hell so no matter what your AR is you are going to miss a lot. That is why smite is so popular for taking down Baal.
Good point on the blocking. I didn't have that mentally factored in. My Enchant-boosted AR with fanaticism up is 9400. IIRC, LCS "tells" me that I'm in the 60s on chance to hit Baal.

In much more fun news, I'll have finished my first crack at a "Max-Lite" Schaeferdin in the next week or so.

Asmodeous

24-10-2007, 05:26

Same here with my schaeferdin and he is level 95 with nearly 14 kay AR with demon limb enchant, 60-61% chance to hit Baal.

I think that this is why Stone crusher is working so well against him as a weapon swap because of the target defence reduction. 9850 defence becomes 7387 with the 25% reduction and each hit takes 100 off that total so baal's defence quickly heads south making it easy to hit him. Towards the end, it seems like 50% of the zeal attacks with the crusher are hitting so his defence seems to become a non issue and only the blocking remains.

But you can see why smite is so popular against baal now can't you?

Eric Xanthu

26-10-2007, 23:45

My little Max-Lite is currently 85 and about to assault Diablo. Everything has been p8, including bosses. It's not as turbo-fast as I thought it would be, but it's -fast- killing.

Looking ahead to my Baal runs (the whole point of this thread, of course), I've got 4 points banked--I haven't invested points since I finished maxing Holy Shield. I'm positive I don't need AR boosts--I'm already at ~11k and climbing. But I'm not 100% sold on Defiance either. I don't have a def-heavy rig like Asmo's, especially with my ultra-lite Treachery (dusk shroud), so I don't know that the defense boost will help that much. I'm toying with the idea of Smite, an old favorite, but I haven't crunched numbers to see if I need Grief to make it worthwhile. If it's not Defiance or Smite, maybe resist auras?

Thoughts?

Asmodeous

27-10-2007, 02:41

I agree about avoiding defence in your case. Defence is an "all or nothing" scenario, basically you either leave it at around the 6 - 8 kay mark or so (what ever your total is) or you have to wind it right up over 20 kay or more, so if you can't hit those kind of numbers, there isn't that much point trying.

A grief/smite set up may work better than my weapon switch solution to players 8 baal (stonecrusher). I did consider that with my pally but, I would have had to make a grief and I never considered taking on baal at players 8 when I built him.
It would be interesting to see what sort of times grief smiters are doing against players 8 Baal.

I haven't really needed resists higher than 75% all with my zealers. When he is in combat, he leeches back all damage taken with a single blow and it doesn't seem to matter if he is getting smacked by several hydra's as long as he is zealing on one of the councillors, for example. Once I drop all the councillers, I usually have to high tail it from the hydra's to avoid being swamped by multiple bolt hits and taking damage for the next round though I usually clean the councillors corpes up with redemption during that phase to ensure he is at full life ready for the balrog pack.
Besides, the only real danger in baal runs apart from ok's is gloom lightning and magical attacks from succubi. One advantage of fortitude as the extra 5% light resists has a noticable effect against glooms and the MDR from string helps against the succubi. So raising your base light resist can pay off. I used to carry a wisp in the back pack that I could swap if I had a gloom heavy map to run thru but once I equipped the fortitude, I haven't needed it as much. The extra 5% makes that much difference.

Eric Xanthu

27-10-2007, 12:10

I was coming to a similar conclusion myself, although your experiences with the hydras is interesting. My blizzballer stands in the hydras and smiles, tanking the hits for my merc who would die very quickly indeed if he were eating the bolts. The secret? Dwarfstar.

I have been noticing that lightning damage is causing me some problems, so I think I will go with Resist Lightning. If I ever get a Grief I can always rebuild around that as my swap (can't believe I just said that).

Deaddave

27-10-2007, 14:18

iv decided that now i have a hf rushed some 1337 gear for my chars to have a go at running baal with my wolfbarb, iv got a realy good map (spent about an hour rerolling to get it good) and currently my runs are taking me about 7 mins. alot of that time is from waves 2 and baal. my currant set up is

wolfhowl(socketed with a pruby)
greif pb
fort ap
stormsheild (socketed with p dimond)
dracs grasp
verdungos
goreriders
highlords wrath
2xravenfrost
2xspirt for prebuff
for charms i have a selection of res and life charms.

skills are:
masterys
20 sword mastery
20 iron skin
7 increased speed
10 natural resistance

combat
none

warcrys
20 shout
20 batle orders.

the stats
damage: no idea i dont know how to calculate it for greif.
ar:around 9k area (thinking of prebuff with demon limb)
defence:23k
life:4.5kish

merc gear
andys vissage(socketed with ral
treachery Loricated Mail
reaperstoll (1 open socket not sure what to put in it)

does anyone have any surgestions on how i can improve my gear?? or just general hints?? also is it worth shaeling my mercs reaper or should i just slap an amn in it for more leach?? or something else?

edit: i should also say i have no real trouble when it comes to saftey (sept very nasty packs of gloams or large amount of oks)

Asmodeous

21-11-2007, 12:26

Well, I am proud to announce that Maxamillian the schaeferdin has cracked the 5 minute barrier, as predicted.

It took quite some time, but I eventually rolled a very good map, make that excellent, the best I have every seen which has accounted for a 15 second run thru time improvement. Coupled with the extra damage from his new schaefers, Fortitude and stone crusher weapon swap, Max has an average over 30 runs of 4:48.

I am now experiementing with merc positioning for the second wave. It seems that I can avoid being decrepped entirely if the merc is very close to the stairs and that is worth valuable time. I've pulled it off a couple of times with favourable run thrus for a best time of 4:24 with still a minor room for improvement. But I think I am splitting seconds now.

Still, sub 5 minutes is a worthy time. Who says schaeferdins suxors now?

colony

21-11-2007, 12:46

Nice time, think that actually beats my barb's average. I'd be interested to see how a barb with similar items to mine did, but using Fort instead of Enigma. I'd try it but I don't have a Fort any more and I don't feel like making another barb that can actually use it, but I know one or to people here have the items.

Eric Xanthu

21-11-2007, 14:46

I shelved D2 for a little while, but before I did I had my schaefer-lite running in decent time. It's 10000% worth it to drag the merc to the stairs for wave 2 on a melee char. After wave 1, I back up to a pillar and hard-charge the stairs. The merc follows and I back off to the spawn-point. As they spawn, I back away from the throne a bit, and voila--he's on one side and I'm on the other. It's not a perfect technique, since even a small "quick move" on my part will drag the merc back off the stairs again, but when it works it works -great-.

The only problem right now is that he's only lvl88 and Achmael's pack lights him up pretty fast. He often dies before I can kill enough of the pack to make it safe for him. :embarrassed:

Eric Xanthu

25-02-2008, 03:31

I'm dragging this out because I ran into something tonight that I had never heard of before. I've got a kicker that I'm building toward Baal running, just for giggles. While I wait on my Stormlash, I am obliterating everything in sight with Lawbringer. The craziest thing happened to me while I was dealing with Baal's waves on Nightmare difficulty.

I'd get a wave, plow to the center of it, and start beating down the boss. Decrep fires, merc is tossing in Confuse, it's all good. I notice as soon as the boss drops that Baal goes into his "laugh maniacally" animation. Twelve seconds later, while I'm still cleaning up the minions, he summons the next wave. I was able to duplicate this easily and repeatedly (and somewhat dangerously, in the case of combining waves 4 and 5). I assume it has to do with the Slain Monsters Rest in Peace mod on Lawbringer.

Assuming you can replicate this effect with Nature's Peace, wouldn't this cut an ENORMOUS amount of time off a melee runner? I'm sure I'm not the first person to run into this, but I've also never heard it mentioned anywhere in the years I've played, either.

RibGriller

25-02-2008, 03:52

DarkChaos

25-02-2008, 04:15

Are you using Delirium on the merc? If so, I think it's the Mindblast/confuse that is bringing those waves out early. If they are converted to your side, he thinks his minions are dead, and gets ready to regurgitate another.

This only very rarely happened to my assassin. It was better to avoid Mind Blast on the waves (except wave 5) because of the conversion, although occasionally he did spawn the waves early. I just assumed it was a bug... in any case I could not count on it to speed my runs up, because on average it slowed me down.

Liquid_Evil

25-02-2008, 04:23

You might be questioning the Delirium choice but the huge radius confusion supplies a certain level of crowd control AND once all the monsters are confused (the wave leaders have to be killed) Baal interprets that as he has no minions and does his annoyingly long laugh in preparation to cast the next wave. As long as my merc doesn't cast Decrepify (and make Baal realize that there are still active monsters in the TR), he will cast the next wave. This isn't as dangerous as it sounds since I have Shockwave to fall back on. Wasting the laugh before all the minions are slain saves me a little bit of time.

Page 11. You missed it.

JihadJesus

26-02-2008, 19:03

I've never run Baal before, but I've got a nice melee character coming up through hell right now and thought I'd regear and give it a shot after I finish the game since he's pretty versatile. I got the feeling people were suggesing CB scaled with /players settings a bit earlier in the thread. I always thought CB and Corpse Exlposion didn't scale with /players and used /p1 life for their calculations, and only Static was really useful on higher settings. Is that not the case?

Naab

26-02-2008, 19:17

CB is gg against baal still with melee chars and Corpse Explosion gets a major boost by Infinity, because of the fire damage.

Reborn2k

22-04-2008, 12:55

This thread is good.

And I have a question: There's this CTH formula that's been posted. I remember that the character level should have a noticable impact on the CTH. I just cannot see it in the formula... the char level doesn't change too much there. But I have something in mind... wasn't it like you get a noticable CTH boost if you are at least 5 levels above your target (and the opposite when you are 5 levels below)? Just like you get best EXP when you're -5 to +5 levels above/below the monsters you're fighting.
I dunno if this is true, I just had this in mind. Otherwise I can't see how the character level should have a noticable impact on the CTH.

Cheers!

sirpoopsalot

09-09-2008, 05:44

*resurrect thread*

... well, as promised in Schaefer's writeup (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=690533), I took him through a series of these runs. The results were surprisingly:

Craptacular.

... Pretty much 10 minutes per run (my map was a little different than the original tests, but moderately close). The primary problem was the Rogue merc... she really, completely, entirely sucked. Generally, minion waves 2 through 5 went something like this:

Achmel/Bartuc/Ventar/Lister: "Hey, is that a rogue merc?!? I haven't seen one of those for a while... they're kindof fun, since all they do is run around from monster to monster before dying... I think we managed to kill the last one we faced in 4 seconds - what do ya think boys, can we get her down in 3 seconds this time?"

Minions: "Sure thing boss. Easy"

*proceeds to kill the merc in 3 seconds (or less)*

I did ~15 runs, each one took 2-10 merc resurrections and ~20 potions. Sadly, that's not an exaggeration... my ATMA bank is about 5M lower than it was, and my purplepots.d2x stash loads noticeably faster in ATMA now. If I tried Taunt/Howl to help, it would overwrite the LifeTap, and she'd get killed even faster. :p

Throw on Baal's decrep curse plus my slower attack speeds without the fanaticism aura from the merc (about 70% of the time), and the runs were simply frustrating.

Lesson learned: If you're going to use a rogue merc with a FrenzyBarb for /p8 Baal runs, then for God's sake, put some points in WarCry!

... and no, I didn't bother to switch to a different (Act2) merc and try again. I'm sick of Scaefer, and I'm not sure I'd like the 6.5 fpa frenzy without the rogue.
*retirement bin, here he comes*

Schmaleop

09-09-2008, 09:19

Thats a pity Sirpoops.

I can do runs with mine around the 5min mark I think, not pushed that hard to improve those times though.

I really thought you'd be challenging that time with your setup. Shame it didnt materialise :(

Ugla

09-09-2008, 10:37

@poops: I'm afraid you face a fundamental problem with a Frenzy barbarian, seeing as he takes 4-times as much damage on average than a 1H character does. Barb's damage blows in general, and though Frenzy can somehow compete, it's at the great cost on survivability. Having greater life pool is of little help on its own.

I have a lvl90 Schaeferdin, and it took me a while to find an optimal ratio between offense and defense to take /p8 waves (namely Lister's). I relied on ordinary leach (10% from Andy's) combined with Decrepify, and it was just about enough to hold the balance - means I was drinking to cover the occasional flukes, but my life wasn't dropping permanently.

Note that once you succumb to using Lifetap over Decrepify, you're doing 1/2 damage (Lister's gang has 50%DR) at best - faster pack kicks you around more, and Frenzy is interruptible. Moreover, if the Lifetap comes from Draculs, you loose the huge %ED vs demons LoH can provide.

I agree it is close to impossible for a barbarian to tank wave5 without Warcry using a rogue, since the rough damage output/input ratio is way too low. Not sure why she was dying on the earlier waves.

I must say I admire all of you who run Baal with a barbarian (or just play one *hides*). I remember I was so unhappy with mine, that I better finished lvl85 on Pindle (to equip Azurewrath) and deleted him soon after.

jrlafrance

09-09-2008, 20:14

Been a long time, but a quick re-read was worth it. I might resurrrect Doolin and see if there is improvement there!

San

09-09-2008, 20:41

I agree it is close to impossible for a barbarian to tank wave5 without Warcry using a rogue, since the rough damage output/input ratio is way too low. Not sure why she was dying on the earlier waves.

A 5k life, 50%dr, 70ish % block wolfbarb with grief+fort+loh seems to do pretty good against most of the waves, especially 90->. Mine can tank rather many minions of destruction even if the merc is dead.

(Not sure I should mention this in the optimal melee baal runner thread since my wolfbarb does 5-6 minute runs.)

Ugla

09-09-2008, 23:55

A 5k life, 50%dr, 70ish % block wolfbarb with grief+fort+loh seems to do pretty good against most of the waves, especially 90->. Mine can tank rather many minions of destruction even if the merc is dead.

(Not sure I should mention this in the optimal melee baal runner thread since my wolfbarb does 5-6 minute runs.)

I was mainly refering to a Frenzybarb (based on poops's post), since it's IMO the only skill that produces some damage to leech from.

I guess with your setup you leech back enough. Not sure which skills a barb can use in wolf's form, though I suspect it's only normal attack. It may not matter with the %ED from 'Fortitude'; in vanilla it's either Frenzy or another class.

colony

10-09-2008, 01:22

in vanilla it's either Frenzy or another class.
Well you can still make Beast and BotD, which work well with Whirlwind, although they're not the most realistic of choices for most people.

San

10-09-2008, 18:26

I was mainly refering to a Frenzybarb (based on poops's post), since it's IMO the only skill that produces some damage to leech from.

I guess with your setup you leech back enough. Not sure which skills a barb can use in wolf's form, though I suspect it's only normal attack. It may not matter with the %ED from 'Fortitude'; in vanilla it's either Frenzy or another class.

Ok.

Wolfbarbs use Feral Rage which they get from Wolfhowl. It's nice for the high life leech, over 30%, iirc, and the FRW. I've got 51% FRW from Feral Rage and 42% from Increased Speed. 93% skill FRW + 30% normal from Gores. I don't miss teleport that much as long as I have a good map :)

Asmodeous

11-09-2008, 04:50

Interesting to see this thread still kicking around! Reminds me to time my Iron berserker me thinks. He is pretty quick on lower players settings, but players 8 is always the challenge.
Will be an change from the drudging constant monotony of levelling my schaeferdin atm.

neno

03-03-2009, 00:20

Hello, anyone menaged to drop baal runs on p8/3 to below 5 minutes with frenzier? If so, what setup?

I use Grief/Lawbringer PBs combo which prove fastest to me. Simply because of IAS overkill, with 1.07 Death (366%) CS I can't swing so fast with decrepify on, losing my run speed there significantly and can't dodge the curse either on first 3 waves (losing time if trying to dodge vs council as they first deal with hydras then come after you etc.) got the reaper's toll (shaeled) merc with threachery and andy's but even if positioned right he sometimes goes after totally wrong target (especially vs wave 2 where he goes after skellies around which is usually longest). On wave 5 if they spawn with might or fana aura, if merc doesn't trigger Decrepify in first 2 hits he is dead, and I can't kill as fast + my survivabiltiy drops aswell. So absolute winner for me is lawbringer, which makes their chance to kill me or my merc near 0. And clock usually shows like ~5.25 run time which fine, but I wonder if anyone menaged to break 5 min barrier with frenzier? (Without ebugging beasts and stuff, not interested in such items). What's even more important it seems my time is overall consistant with that weapon setup, while on the other one I am pretty much relying on luck, as what will merc do. I also tried Crescent Moon on merc as I went with Lawbringer... time pretty much stayed the same proving me that static field is not going off that often.

PS: My map might not be perfect (lvl 2 - 3 takes like 10-15 sec to come to while lvl 3 - throne is just around corner) so I guess it's still fine.

Edit: 5.15.5 best time so far... still can't bring it down to below 5... maybe with perfect or near perfect map... :|

sirpoopsalot

03-03-2009, 02:09

Interesting neno.

I've been thinking about trying this on my own (someday), just because I like frenziers and have a few new toys since I made the last one. But I haven't started this yet, so I can't answer any of your questions (except to say that, iirc, jrlafrance has pursued this with his frenzier - I don't recall any details or results, but you may want to search for posts he's made in this thread).

Did you try a Reaper's Toll on the mercenary? I was thinking that would enable you to have a stronger weapon (Oath maybe?) in your 2nd hand and still get the decrep aura... but perhaps you outrun the merc too often and it truly is better to have cause the Decrep curse yourself.

Also, did you try using Taunt on the first 3 waves to draw the monsters out without getting Decrep'ed? This should also increase your safety at times too.

PS. I've got like 5 builds now that I should try this with. Maybe I'll get bored resurrect some of them someday.

Kefir-Tribe

03-03-2009, 09:38

I don’t recall the exact run times since this was some time ago, but I had a Frenzy Barb capable of about 5 min/run. His setup was in line with: 2x Grief PB, Fortitude, Arreat’s/Guillaume’s, Highlord’s, LoH, Raven, Gore Rider and a mercenary with Reaper’s Toll.

On switch I used Naj’s Puzzler for teleport charges. Not to tele all the way down (too expensive), but rather to get past mobs easier and to be able to use more good maps (e.g. when the WP and the stairs are close to each other but with a wall in between). This saves a lot of time. It can also be used to position your mercenary.

Unfortunately there’s no intel on exactly how Decrepify (and slow etc.) affects attack speed. I think I dropped to 6fpa under Decrepify with dual Grief PB. You can of course experiment with the WSM bug (equipping weapons with different WSM in a special way) and stacking IAS to try to retain 5fpa but I doubt it’s worth it. I handled wave one, two and three under Decrepify, since wave one and two are too stationary and wave three too erratic to lure along. Ventar and Mr Lister are easier to deal with out of range of Baals Decrepify. I prefer to use the “candle choke point”.

I find level ~10 War Cry necessary for a baal running Frenzy Barb. Mostly because Frenzy is interruptible, which leads to that Lister and his pack knocks you around (and puts Mr Moron out of his misery faster than he can say "Chewbacca"). With War Cry it’s quite easy to park them at the choke point. War Cry is also very useful against the other waves, especially wave two.

neno

03-03-2009, 12:30

That's why permanent decrepify is savior against punching Lister & co. I also do like 5-6 min runs so if that's normal I am satisfied since it's still fast enough for me and very fun.

@sirpoopsalot yes I have reaper's toll merc however it gets tricky if he goes after wrong target in early waves (which often happens even if positioning him right) and especially tricky if he doesn't trigger decrep immidiately vs fana/might wave 5.

Tanksaabas

03-03-2009, 12:40

Against wave 4 and 5 I lure them away from baals decrep range , which is just only like half a screen away. 1 , 2 and 3 waves are too chaotic and run around like crazy. Not getting decrep'd then is kind of impossible.

neno

03-03-2009, 13:36

I was refering to merc's decrepify... I don't have problems with decrepify even vs wave 4 and 5 as long as I have dual PB's (one as lawbringer) eventho I dodge Baal's decrepify aswell vs last 2 waves for the sake of killing speed.

Jeff Jonsson

28-06-2009, 15:15

I've been doing some runs with a schaeferdin (http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp343/uffe123/Screenshot075.jpg) and just reached 91. I have a couple of questions for you experts.

1. Does map seed influence monster spawns? I.e. can you have a map that spawns OKs more often than other maps?

2. I think I've read somewhere that the game produces some kind of number when you start game.exe and then uses that to determine various random events. So if you get several impossible OK spawns (more than 1 in the throne and I'm out of there) in a row, does it help to restart the game?

3. Can all guest monsters spawn together? From my limited experience, it seems that Assailants (the red act 2 skinny dudes) don't spawn with OKs. I'm asking because sometimes you want to start zealing at the beginning of the throne room, but you can't risk there being OKs closer to Baal, so you have to explore the rest of it before attacking. It would help to know that certain spawns are "safe". Edit: Scratch that. I just saw Assailants hanging out with OKs.

Thanks guys.

Corrupted

28-06-2009, 16:42

neno

28-06-2009, 17:18

I can already tell you, after a LOT runs with my frenzier, that I need around 5 minutes for each run on average maps. Death chance is usually 0, but runs with OK's take a bit longer 'cos I must run in town to grab Passion and berserk them down.

And to answer Jeff, Assilants do spawn with OKs, everything does. But from my experience The Fat Inferno Guys (TFIG :))))) ) spawn rarely with OK's. Also, I noticed there are only 3 random and different type of monster in WSK and throne, ALWAYS. So If u se TFIGs, Assilands and Lords for example (there also has to be at least 1 caster class in spawns) you're sure that OK's are not waiting anywhere.