Gear & skills for Suicideadin! Thorns/Conversion

[Mistress Sersi]

Ok, I am currently lvl 33 using Ithras set ( I have max resistences! some @ 86) & ribcracker staff. I also use greyform armour..... I am @ the point where I should be swapping out my items fo better ones.

SO the questions are:

WHich items & what mods should I look for? ( I figure damage reduction would be a good mod, maybe a life tap wand for later)

What other skills go well with the 2 I am using? Conversion is @ lvl 9. I doubt I want to put any more points into it as it only goes up by 1 point & items should boost.

[eLeM3NTz3CP]

Dont know what a suicideadin is but my version was

max suicide,its synergys
base dex/str

i use prayer,fant,redemption aura
max dr 08 gaze(ber),enigma,verdungos
dracs,last wish pb,exile (alot of life tap) it keeps me alive

i have over 4klife,over 8.5k dmg,75pris

sorry dont have time to get in depth with this.

basically mass life,max dr,alot of lifetap,hi res

i dont die often and when i do i usually kill myself so i dont lose exp

[Mistress Sersi]

Max suicide?????? Thorns has NO synergies nor does conversion!

Why max dex if you use thorns? You WANT to be hit!

[eLeM3NTz3CP]

Max suicide?????? Thorns has NO synergies nor does conversion!

Why max dex if you use thorns? You WANT to be hit!



Dont know what a suicideadin is but my version was

[Darkflight]

Dont know what a suicideadin is but my version was

I think you mean Sacrifice. The thread starter means a Paladin using Thorns to damage opponents.

[SSoG]

I think some good skills for a Suicidedin would be Zeal, Conviction, Fanaticism, or Holy Shock... because you aren't going to be killing *ANYTHING* in Hell with Conversion and Thorns. :wink3:

If you're just looking for something to get you through Normal and possibly Nightmare, Thorns/Conversion will work, but there's pretty much no way to work it in Hell. You just won't have enough life- and remember, the amount of damage you deal is limited by the amount of life you have. The ratio between monster life and monster damage means it'll be ages before anything kills itself with its own damage (and in the meantime, you'll probably be dead already), and besides, Thorns is entirely useless against ranged attackers and elemental attackers.

If you really want to try a Damage Return build, you're better off using a Druid or Necro with a Bramble/Edge Rogue, because then at least the monsters are beating on and killing your poor minions rather than your poor you.

[Netsua]

I think some good skills for a Suicidedin would be Zeal, Conviction, Fanaticism, or Holy Shock... because you aren't going to be killing *ANYTHING* in Hell with Conversion and Thorns. :wink3:

If you're just looking for something to get you through Normal and possibly Nightmare, Thorns/Conversion will work, but there's pretty much no way to work it in Hell. You just won't have enough life- and remember, the amount of damage you deal is limited by the amount of life you have. The ratio between monster life and monster damage means it'll be ages before anything kills itself with its own damage (and in the meantime, you'll probably be dead already), and besides, Thorns is entirely useless against ranged attackers and elemental attackers.

If you really want to try a Damage Return build, you're better off using a Druid or Necro with a Bramble/Edge Rogue, because then at least the monsters are beating on and killing your poor minions rather than your poor you.


All valid points, but that's not what this build does. The Evangelist (my term, although I'm sure it's not original) isn't built around taking the thorns damage HIMSELF. For obvious reasons concerning monster life vs your life, that ain't gonna fly.

The build works, like those Druid/Necro builds you mentioned, by converting monsters, switching on thorns, and watching the carnage.

Q: But isn't thorns seriously weak compared to Fanat, et al.?

A: Nope. Lets say you have lvl20 Fanatacism. A minion you've converted and a monster of the same type are duking it out while you watch. The enemy minion swings for 100 damage. Your minion, with the fanaticism bonus, swings for 286.

Now envision the same scenario, but with level 20 Thorns. The enemy minion swings for 100, and takes 1010 damage from the thorns. Then your minion swings for 100, merely adding insult to injury.

The real problem with thorns comes in Hell, with the 50% physical resist. But even if both monsters have it, thorns comes out ahead. In the first scenario, your monster deals 143 damage. In the second, the enemy monster takes a total of 300 damage (250ish from thorns, halved twice by both monsters' DR, and 50 from your monster's attack). The only aura that can outshine thorns in hell is concentration, because it doesn't suffer the ally damage reduction of fanaticism, but my Evangelist relies on fanaticism to hit 8 frames per convert, and to zeal with when he switches to his beat stick weapon after a pack of monsters has been reduced to a few, so maxing another damage boosting aura just isn't worth it.

As far as the original question about gear: the most important idea to keep in mind is that you will need two distinct weapons setups: a fast, low damage weapon with +skills for converting, and a typical zealot style beatdown weapon on switch for mopping up what's left.

I guess the ultimate converting weapon would be a Caduceus with +3 Paladin skills, +3 Thorns, +3 Fanaticism and +3 Conversion. Of alacrity, or shaeled, or something for the speed. Note that you don't have to hit to get conversion to work, so piercing isn't a desired suffix for the converting weapon.

My guy is looking at 20 Thorns, 20 Fanaticism, 20 Holy Shield, 4+ Zeal, and 9 Conversion. Conversion is plagued by such devastating diminishing returns that you really don't want to go over the acceptable value of 33% chance to convert, doable with an 8 frame attack.

I'll probably write a guide for this someday. Until then, hope this helps.

[HCKull]

I thought a sucidedin would have have 17 facets of every type but with die. That way when you die everything on the screen dies also. Might be better to put the facets on your A3 merc.

[Mistress Sersi]

I thought a sucidedin would have have 17 facets of every type but with die. That way when you die everything on the screen dies also. Might be better to put the facets on your A3 merc.

LMAO




:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

[eLeM3NTz3CP]

Well thorn/convertor always called a convertor used one in 09 on hc convert cows give thorns they convert goes away w/e mellee attacks them gets hit w/ the thorn aura....

misstress your mockin ppl for tryin to input on a unused build? you dont know what your doing why dog ppl

[Mistress Sersi]

Well thorn/convertor always called a convertor used one in 09 on hc convert cows give thorns they convert goes away w/e mellee attacks them gets hit w/ the thorn aura....

misstress your mockin ppl for tryin to input on a unused build? you dont know what your doing why dog ppl


No. I am making builds that are fun! :laugh: I have done all the tradional characters already. Its time to change things up!:tongue:

[SSoG]

All valid points, but that's not what this build does. The Evangelist (my term, although I'm sure it's not original) isn't built around taking the thorns damage HIMSELF. For obvious reasons concerning monster life vs your life, that ain't gonna fly.

The build works, like those Druid/Necro builds you mentioned, by converting monsters, switching on thorns, and watching the carnage.

Q: But isn't thorns seriously weak compared to Fanat, et al.?

A: Nope. Lets say you have lvl20 Fanatacism. A minion you've converted and a monster of the same type are duking it out while you watch. The enemy minion swings for 100 damage. Your minion, with the fanaticism bonus, swings for 286.

Now envision the same scenario, but with level 20 Thorns. The enemy minion swings for 100, and takes 1010 damage from the thorns. Then your minion swings for 100, merely adding insult to injury.

The real problem with thorns comes in Hell, with the 50% physical resist. But even if both monsters have it, thorns comes out ahead. In the first scenario, your monster deals 143 damage. In the second, the enemy monster takes a total of 300 damage (250ish from thorns, halved twice by both monsters' DR, and 50 from your monster's attack). The only aura that can outshine thorns in hell is concentration, because it doesn't suffer the ally damage reduction of fanaticism, but my Evangelist relies on fanaticism to hit 8 frames per convert, and to zeal with when he switches to his beat stick weapon after a pack of monsters has been reduced to a few, so maxing another damage boosting aura just isn't worth it.
That's a nice comparison, but in my mind it doesn't matter if Thorns + Conversion is better than Fanat + Conversion if both of them are still superweak, anyway.

I'm not trying to rag on people who decide to build a Thorns/Conversion Paladin- I myself am a big fan of "ugly" builds- I just think it's not Hell Viable. I've played around with it, and it doesn't have anywhere NEAR enough killing speed to keep me interested (and I've build Meleemancers, so it doesn't take much killing speed at all to keep me interested).

I think a more fun Conversion build would take advantage of the feature where if you convert a monster that is a higher level than you are, when he unconverts he only has 1 HP. Adventure in levels higher than your own, and use a 1-point Holy Fire to blow up all of the monsters once they unconvert (even the ping from a 1-point HF is enough to 1-hit-kill them). If they're Fire Immune, use a 1-point Holy Freeze.

That build kills a lot faster than Conversion/Thorns while still being extremely unique. The big problems, of course, are dealing with unconvertable monsters, as well as the fact that once you hit level 85 your main killing strategy is useless (since there are no monsters higher than level 85 that can be converted). For those situations, I usually use a Conviction + Zeal backup (Max Conviction, 4 points in Zeal, keep a set of Gimmershreds on switch).

[bchk]

"Missionary" I think is the best name for this build. :P

[Netsua]

I think a more fun Conversion build would take advantage of the feature where if you convert a monster that is a higher level than you are, when he unconverts he only has 1 HP. Adventure in levels higher than your own, and use a 1-point Holy Fire to blow up all of the monsters once they unconvert (even the ping from a 1-point HF is enough to 1-hit-kill them). If they're Fire Immune, use a 1-point Holy Freeze.



Yes, I take advantage of that bug/game feature by using a rogue merc. They're far and away the best for the build, because they can snipe 1 HP monsters and because the Act 2 blokes are suicide attackers when your monsters deconvert with the thorns aura still on (I know, I know, aura flashing doesn't exist anymore, but auras still stay on for about half a second, which is long enough for your merc to jab himself to a swift death.)

As for hell viablity....I'll let you know how I'm doing when I get there. I just started this is a pet project and I've been busy with other things. But since I too enjoy ugly builds (and btw your charger guide got me going on those perpetual motion machines) I'm giving it a try.

As for the name....I like evangelist more than missionary, because it's politically more apt. After all, we have a guy who convinces his victims to join his cause, uses them as cannon fodder in his holy wars, then when they wise up he turns around and backstabs them. Religion in a nutshell. In honor of theocrats everywhere, I named my evangelist Billy_Graham.

Although I can understand those who disagree and take the missionary position over mine. Pun absolutely intended.