Ww/Trapper versus BvC talk

[KaythonXE]

I love how in the other thread, someone said BvCs are IMMUNE to mindblast? Are you kidding me? Mindblast is just what makes a ww/trapper > BvC. When a BvC is surrounded by traps, and getting hit with constant mindblast. He cannot teleport on top of the sin. This makes him have to do two things, use ww or leap. Leaping a far distance is too slow, as the sin can relocate the traps onto the new area the barb is moving, and continue mindblasting. This leaves wwing at the sin, or away from the sin. Both which are too slow to get away from a good sin. Running is possible, but is similiarly just as slow, only because of the constant fhr you're going into. Ce Olba, after 85 res you said I do 190ish damage max with traps. Which mean only one thing, eventually the barbarian will die with no other way to attack the wwsin. And I love how when you stated the barb has more life and more damage, neglected to say that OW does like 1k damage over eight seconds. The fact also being, when a wwsin hits a barb, it will almost always cause ow. A BvC will rarely strike the sin, due to 60% block.

[jesterlolz]

And I love how when you stated the barb has more life and more damage, neglected to say that OW does like 1k damage over eight seconds.

Its actually over .8 seconds.

[Rabbitz]

Kaython:

A bvc will not "rarely" strike. Your lucky if the bvc strikes no more then once during a single moment of contact.

BvC's have , leap/ww to get out of locks. I know, I play a ww//trapper myself, and against the best its an EXTREEM uphill battle.

I read in the last thread that your sin had " 4.9k life, 4k ww, 9k traps " Mind explaining how u got your superb stats?

[KaythonXE]

Perfect gear. Though everyone pretty much has completely perfect gear. And the gcs have 50 life, instead of the normal maximum of 45. I do 2.7k poison with my ww over .4 seconds. So it's really 5.4k poison over .8 seconds due to being in hell. OW is over 8 seconds.

[Ce Olba]

I love how in the other thread, someone said BvCs are IMMUNE to mindblast? Are you kidding me? Mindblast is just what makes a ww/trapper > BvC. When a BvC is surrounded by traps, and getting hit with constant mindblast. He cannot teleport on top of the sin. This makes him have to do two things, use ww or leap. Leaping a far distance is too slow, as the sin can relocate the traps onto the new area the barb is moving, and continue mindblasting. This leaves wwing at the sin, or away from the sin. Both which are too slow to get away from a good sin. Running is possible, but is similiarly just as slow, only because of the constant fhr you're going into.

WW namelock -> Desynch -> dead sin

That's what I do when I get bored.

Ce Olba, after 85 res you said I do 190ish damage max with traps. Which mean only one thing, eventually the barbarian will die with no other way to attack the wwsin. And I love how when you stated the barb has more life and more damage, neglected to say that OW does like 1k damage over eight seconds.

Sorry, OW never, ever reaches 1k damage. At lvl 99 it does 612.5 over 8 seconds.

The fact also being, when a wwsin hits a barb, it will almost always cause ow. A BvC will rarely strike the sin, due to 60% block.

"Almost always" is nothing.

"Rarely"? You barely have any defense at all. So, the chance to hit calculation is pretty hugely to the favour of the BvC. If you had a generous 5k of defense, the BvC would easily (with 15k AR) have 75% Chance to hit. Now, with 60% Blocking, that's an average of 30% chance to it. Your WWsin has (with say, 15k AR) the chance of 55.5555% chance of hitting. And that's GENEROUS. The barbarian could easily get a 20k AR and have a 80% chance ot hit which is 32% after your 60% blocking.

Your OW argument is nothing. Yes, a WWsin is capable of having 91% OW easily. However, if you do that, you lose a) major damage from your claw b) major ar from your claw.

WW/Trappers just ain't gonna cut it.

The only reason you are claiming that they are better than BvCs is because of your utter hatred of BvCs. You've already manifested your stupidity by claming that anything>BvC which is clearly untrue. The only let's say 5 builds that can be a tough match-up for a BvC would be V/T, Hammerdin, Bonemancer, Smiter and BvB, four out of those which are still very beatable. There is only one single build that a BvC simply cannot win. BvB. Make one and them come claiming that your build>BvC.

Oh, and a sidenote: Due to your crappy chance of hitting, your effective OW triggering ratio goes down to 50.5%. That's with 91% OW.

Hell, it was you who claimed that hammerdin>BvC simply based on paper maths. Sorry, that's not how it works.

By the way, your venom is useless. Learn some maths:
5400 * 0.17 * 0.25 = 229.5

or let's be cruel:
5400 * 0.17 * 0.15 = 137.7

So, let's see:
poison damage:
229.5
Physical damage:
I would say 150?
Traps:
189.5 per blast
OW:
612.5
Total: 1181.5 per assault

BvC:
OW:
612.5
Physical:
Grief: 660.7
Beast: 307.3
Totals: 1580.5

BvC life:
6000 - 6500

WWsin life: 4900

You have less life, less range, less damage.

So, against an equally skilled player you would have pretty much no chance. You don't have ANYTHING in your favor at that moment. The character advantage is against of you, the skill and gear are equal. So, only luck remains. But luck is by far not enough to overthrow all of the factors against of you. Not unless we talk about you scoring criticals all the time and hitting at maximal potent compared to the BvC scoring lowest hits and hitting rarely.

[KaythonXE]

You lose. You say WW namelock is going to beat a sin? That's the most lol thing I've ever heard. When you're namelocked and ww'd, the only thing you have against a sin is the desynch. And I didn't think even you were so retarded to think that the desynch couldn't be seen. It's called teleporting away and laying traps so you die after, yes, a long time. But oh well, you sealed your fate with a ww nl. I have 21k ar. 50% ow + 15 + 25. 90% ar, not including OW from a belt if I so choose to put on an OW belt. This is on my offhand. Chaos is different. We can both assume that due to high ar and low defense, of both bvc and ww/trapper we're going to hit almost everytime. That means the wwsins block will win out. You seem to assume on some level that I am a complete moron and would ww along with the bvc. I know they outdamage me in many ways, but not throughout the duel as BvCs almost always die versus me. Unless perhaps, I'm running away and they decide to ww me and jump. Or they decide to jump during bo, in which damage to the health of the sin could be extreme, but likely won't completely kill.

Sin traps are constantly hitting you, but you are never hitting me. How is that in your favor?

And you've once again proven nothing, you've shown that the bvc outdamages the wwsin. Woopdee do? Since 60% of blocks are negated, 60% of your damage is negated. Let's also add in max dr, half of your effective damage is once again gone. You do an overall 20% damage, while the damage I do remains pretty much the same. :(

[Ce Olba]

You lose. You say WW namelock is going to beat a sin? That's the most lol thing I've ever heard. When you're namelocked and ww'd, the only thing you have against a sin is the desynch. And I didn't think even you were so retarded to think that the desynch couldn't be seen. It's called teleporting away and laying traps so you die after, yes, a long time. But oh well, you sealed your fate with a ww nl.

Nowhere did I say it was the only thing to do. I said I do it when I get bored, didn't I?

I have 21k ar. 50% ow + 15 + 25. 90% ar, not including OW from a belt if I so choose to put on an OW belt. This is on my offhand. Chaos is different.

Off-hand is pretty insignificant to say the least, since over time you have more hits on your primary than secondary.

We can both assume that due to high ar and low defense, of both bvc and ww/trapper we're going to hit almost everytime. That means the wwsins block will win out.

The block means nothing when you are out-ranged.

You seem to assume on some level that I am a complete moron and would ww along with the bvc. I know they outdamage me in many ways, but not throughout the duel as BvCs almost always die versus me.

Are these one of those BvCs that are "better than luis"? Nice one. You know why anyone doesn't bother with you anymore? Because you always come up with a sad excuse to losing or why not to duel, be it different realm, different character or whatnot.

Unless perhaps, I'm running away and they decide to ww me and jump. Or they decide to jump during bo, in which damage to the health of the sin could be extreme, but likely won't completely kill.

Oh please. You should've already realized that the WW of a trap-emphasized WW/Trap sin is pathetic as I already showed you. And that's with your "perfect" gear. And your traps are already even too pathetic and they can be put into even more pathetic state if necessary.

[KaythonXE]

I outdamage you over time, you assumed in your damage calculation that the sin doesn't block. And my mistake, that was actually my primary weapon, because I use chaos as my last weapon, due to carrying a fools claw. Annnyways, you've said the trap damage is low?
10(Trap shots) x 190(damage) = 1900 x 5(number of traps) = 9500.
Average bvc life is 6k-6.5k.
That's overkill.

Range really isn't a factor, considering the only way you'll ww on me is to tele. I can see the tele, I ww away in defense. I'll be out of range before you finish tele animation, and begin to ww, and you'll be bleeding. :( That is, you really won't even tele on me, due to bvcs thinking we don't need fhr cause of ww. And the fact that, even with amazing fhr, you'd need to bypass 5 traps striking you and a mb lock.

[Ce Olba]

I outdamage you over time, you assumed in your damage calculation that the sin doesn't block. And my mistake, that was actually my primary weapon, because I use chaos as my last weapon, due to carrying a fools claw. Annnyways, you've said the trap damage is low?
10(Trap shots) x 190(damage) = 1900 x 5(number of traps) = 9500.
Average bvc life is 6k-6.5k.
That's overkill.

And you expect the BvC to stand still there, taking all of that damage? At best you will ever gain like 5 shots per 5 traps, aka 25* 190 = 4750. And the rest you will have to do with OW and your 230 poison, meaning 3 OWs which is 24 seconds total. And yes, I do think that in 24 seconds you will be pretty dead.

Range really isn't a factor, considering the only way you'll ww on me is to tele. I can see the tele, I ww away in defense. I'll be out of range before you finish tele animation, and begin to ww, and you'll be bleeding. :( That is, you really won't even tele on me, due to bvcs thinking we don't need fhr cause of ww.

I don't know what kind of retarded BvCs you duel, but each and every BvC should have 48% FHR always, so of course they will realize that their little sisters will have that much at least.

And the fact that, even with amazing fhr, you'd need to bypass 5 traps striking you and a mb lock.

And who says I won't have a Widow? With 35-55% OW it's a pretty good source of OW. Specially considering that I can abuse it to force you on the offense. 40% of all arrows hit, 35% of those causing OW, meaning this:
100 arrows hit
35 arrows cause OW
35 * 612.5 = 21437.5

And I can do that without ever being on your screen.

And no, you cannot pull a widowmaker of your own, for these reasons:
1. CTA:
If you put widowmaker on swap, you will end up with no bo in two minutes. So you will lose.
2. Claws
If you put widowmaker on primary, I can just come and charge you since you now don't have your WW, thus you are easily fhr-locked via leap and your traps do pathetic damage.

So, you will lose.

[KaythonXE]

Traps + mb > arrows. You can't shoot arrows while in constant traplock + mb lock. Not to mention Gas are REDICULOUSLY easy to see, and run away from. And if you want to get absolutely technical, I can stash the widow somewhere on the ground, and trap defensively while I switch my switch from cta/spirit to widow/arrows.

By the way, five frame fhr is pathetic when anything that hits you puts you in fhr, and 5 traps blasting you along with 11 frame mb = you will never be able to run away or do anything that is interuptable fast enough.

[Ce Olba]

Traps + mb > arrows. You can't shoot arrows while in constant traplock + mb lock.

Good luck shooting traps two screens away after your delayed namelock is broken.

Not to mention Gas are REDICULOUSLY easy to see, and run away from.

Doesn't matter, they have the tracking property. And while you are running, your blocking goes down and the BvC can abuse that.

And if you want to get absolutely technical, I can stash the widow somewhere on the ground, and trap defensively while I switch my switch from cta/spirit to widow/arrows.

Hah, that's ridiculous. I could just go and pick up your CTA or Widowmaker. That would solve the problem. Not 200 life means too much if I can cripple your character either to around 2k life or with no ranged offense at all.

Of course, you could get a horadric cube but that could cripple you nicely since you would need to take at least two skillers away.

By the way, five frame fhr is pathetic when anything that hits you puts you in fhr, and 5 traps blasting you along with 11 frame mb = you will never be able to run away or do anything that is interuptable fast enough.

Doesn't matter, I don't recall ever dying to traps AFTER being MB-locked in the middle of them. And I'm talking about 14k traps here, not 9k. And of course, without TGod's either.

And who says that I won't replace Beast with a Fury and go def-whoring with Widow on swap?

[KaythonXE]

Pick up my cta? What with your open inventory and thus garbage build? Or would you drop down your widow thus disabling your entire strategy? Venom last a lot longer than 2 minutes, and removing two shadow skillers doesn't do anything else. The minus 100 life from them, would be fixed slightly by 40 more life from scs, and whatever mod I need.

You'll eventually die, and I wouldn't run away from gas. I'd tele away from them. I'm not dumb. So I'm afraid you will lose. :(

[Smithenator]

Ce olba, just stop responding to Kaython, hes just trolling, all competent duelers know that ww/trap vs bvc is hardly a duel at all.

[mainaman]

Kaython:

A bvc will not "rarely" strike. Your lucky if the bvc strikes no more then once during a single moment of contact.

BvC's have , leap/ww to get out of locks. I know, I play a ww//trapper myself, and against the best its an EXTREEM uphill battle.

I read in the last thread that your sin had " 4.9k life, 4k ww, 9k traps " Mind explaining how u got your superb stats?
Ok let me xplain how he gets those stats :
His sin is made on D2PK, 50 life skillers ar ereadily available, ppl use amulets such as +2/20dext/30str/60life/90 mana/30 res all - all spawnable mods,
circlets such as +2/20 fcr/2 os/60 life/90 mana/30 res all with srt or dext.
claws can be for example perf glitched runic chaos with 3 venom/3mb/2 wb or similar etc.
Bmanas are readily available and so is btals, no wonder why sorc is so overpowered class there, and as a contrast barbs are totaly forgotten only improvement for them is occasionally glitched beast and somewhat avilable wraith brands .
Even with those superior gears any sin variant can't beat bvc consistently , KaythonXE stop talkin out of your behind pls.
A full ww is 8 hitchecks if im not wrong and your 60% block is calculated for everyone of them separately , you will never block them all and you will either recieve phys dmg from grief or ow will trigger from beast.
I have dueled Zaichiek ,as you know he is considered one of the top sin players on east, and i beat his ghost (dmg bulid) alot more than he beat me.

KaythonXE: Traps + mb > arrows
you sound like the bvc will stand there mind blasted and in middle of traps trying to shoot ga's?

oh and you cant get 20k ar on ww/trapper hybrid stop lying.
only way you can get closer to that is if you enchant which i believe is listed as bm in the dueling rules and if you enchant to duel then you already disproved your point , since you can't win gm...

[KaythonXE]

Fools claw + 2 raven build + many 32020s = 20k ar. Max isn't a ww/trapper, and I've beaten max's ghost sin too. Your point?

[bogie]

*gulps water to avoid getting singed by flames*

Cool down guys *pun intended*

[dthseeker]

why even bother dueling in a league where there's gc's that aren't even possible to drop normally?

[HappyAssassin]

Yeah I was curious about those stats too, since a 5k life WWsin is basically impossible on the realms. Maniaman also forgot I think that this char is lvl 99 (very few 99 WW/Trapsins). 20k AR w/o enchant I very much doubt, a 2 Raven build with Fools claw gets around 10k AR, everyone knows 3/20/20s don't add 10k AR. Also, I'm just curious, but did you add 9 points in claw mastery? Because on my WW/Trapper (no prebuff, shadows equipped 24/7), I have max claw block with 2 points added. 9 points in claw block means -900 trap damage. Also it means you have a lvl 15ish MB, which is a low stun length. I'm also curious how you have 9k traps in this case, since 7.5k is the upper limit for a lvl 90 sin w/o points in CB and not using trap gcs. If you use 3/20/20s, there is simply no way you have 9k traps (unless you have a low level venom, in which case youre 2.7k poison won't be happening).

Ce olba, just stop responding to Kaython, hes just trolling, all competent duelers know that ww/trap vs bvc is hardly a duel at all.

WW/Trap can beat BvCs (correctly built ones) in GM duels, it just needs to be played perfectly. If the BvC is very good the WW/Trapsin will lose, but what Olba is saying is that a good build of BvC will always win. That's not true. Its also worth pointing out that Kaython uses a full prebuff, which in a lot of places is BM and thus the divide between WW/Trapper and BvC is bigger (prebuff helps WW/Traps a lot more).

Oh, and Widow is a horrible strategy vs. a WWsin of any type. A good BvC beats WW/Trappers by forcing the exchange of WWs, waiting for the sin to be in WW a second too long, and clipping them. Defensive barbs lose. Offensive ones will win most of the time, but if the sin doesn't make any mistakes they will win (depending on damage rolls).

[mainaman]

why even bother dueling in a league where there's gc's that aren't even possible to drop normally?
these charms were dropable in 1.08 or before i believe

[mephiztophelez]

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1861/chickenbrothay8.jpg
ww kicker > ww barb.

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

Never bothered to learn throughly about Assassins.. probably my most uneducated class.

Not having much experience in either (especially the ww/trap), everone's theory seems to make sense, I can see them working according to plan in my mind. Why not just get someone to duel Kaython then? Olba or mania both seems to know how to control a BvC pretty well.

[dthseeker]

Never bothered to learn throughly about Assassins.. probably my most uneducated class.

Not having much experience in either (especially the ww/trap), everone's theory seems to make sense, I can see them working according to plan in my mind. Why not just get someone to duel Kaython then? Olba or mania both seems to know how to control a BvC pretty well.

better yet mainaman has a bvc on d2pk and useast..

[mainaman]

better yet mainaman has a bvc on d2pk and useast..bad thing is i have pretty bad lag on d2pk most of the time..
on east its more bearable , but kaython can't even dream of making decent ww/trapper there...

[Smithenator]

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1861/chickenbrothay8.jpg
ww kicker > ww barb.

you beat chickenbroth? o_O nj meph :)

[Box]

bad thing is i have pretty bad lag on d2pk most of the time..
on east its more bearable , but kaython can't even dream of making decent ww/trapper there...

Hell stef, gimme two days on a barb and I'll duel him on d2pk. :cool:

[mephiztophelez]

you beat chickenbroth? o_O nj meph :)

i have to admit: i had the aid of a high level Battle Orders/Shout at the time. without that, he wtfpwns me.

[Cheesehed]

why dont you just duel, you are arguing over something that can easily be proven

[CaptnSparrow]

In his defense... the hacked items on D2PK are really damn good...

[Ce Olba]

Pick up my cta? What with your open inventory and thus garbage build? Or would you drop down your widow thus disabling your entire strategy?

All I would need is to replace 4 charms for a horadric cube. And with that I would at most lose 191 life, 468 AR and 1.8 PvP average damage.

Venom last a lot longer than 2 minutes, and removing two shadow skillers doesn't do anything else. The minus 100 life from them, would be fixed slightly by 40 more life from scs, and whatever mod I need.

The last time I checked, the Venom's duration was 0.4 seconds. And your fictional venom is rather pathetic actually, as I already proved.

You'll eventually die, and I wouldn't run away from gas. I'd tele away from them. I'm not dumb. So I'm afraid you will lose. :(

Well, go ahead, go ahead and waste all of your mana. That's just good for the opponent.

And to everyone who suggested that either myself or maina would duel this fellow, I cannot. The last time I even played D2 was almost a year ago. Not that I wouldn't have been there once in a while. And no, I simply cannot play D2 because of my PC. So I'll just have to wait a little bit longer until I get a new one.

And also, I have to say that it's pretty damn pathetic that you are making such claims based on a character made on a realm that's got infinite access to gear. How many WWsins do you think have perfect gear? I would have to say that Happy is one of the best gear sin I've heard of and even his gear is not perfect. Not even close to be exact. So please, try to re-create your mighty wwsin on a realm and then talk.

WW/Trap can beat BvCs (correctly built ones) in GM duels, it just needs to be played perfectly.

And that's exactly why they pretty much never should win. "Perfect" would assume no lag spikes, no mistakes in judgment, lots of criticals, abnormal amount of his considering CtH while the opponent hits abnormally low considering CtH and even then scored low-mid damage hits only. Which just won't happen more than a couple of times. Depending on such random factors is not dueling. As I've already explained, the factors in dueling would be character advantage, which is for the BvC now, the skill and gear of the player, which should be equal now, the luck of the players, which is random. So, skill and gear are not a factor since they are equal, so, luck and character advantage remain. Can plain luck overthrow a difference of 500 in damage and 1600 in life and whatnot? I just don't see that happening too often.

[Rabbitz]

And that's exactly why they pretty much never should win. "Perfect" would assume no lag spikes, no mistakes in judgment, lots of criticals, abnormal amount of his considering CtH while the opponent hits abnormally low considering CtH and even then scored low-mid damage hits only. Which just won't happen more than a couple of times. Depending on such random factors is not dueling. As I've already explained, the factors in dueling would be character advantage, which is for the BvC now, the skill and gear of the player, which should be equal now, the luck of the players, which is random. So, skill and gear are not a factor since they are equal, so, luck and character advantage remain. Can plain luck overthrow a difference of 500 in damage and 1600 in life and whatnot? I just don't see that happening too often.

*sigh*

Ww//Trappers ( atleast my kind), Do not aim for hitting the bvc with ww. That is foolish, what you said is correct and I'd loose more then I'd gain off it.

Ww is what helps when the bvc tries to leap-unsummon-ww. Well then, there is where the luck comes in, does the bvc preform is correct AND does he predict where im going? If so... I'd have the play the rest of the duel perfectly to stand a chance , if not it means I just layed him/her EXACTLY where I want them and its pretty much decided from there.

[KaythonXE]

I had this character pretty much on East just before I quit. Only difference is I had 35-36/19-20s, instead of 32020s, and 43-45 lifers. But unfortunately, I quit the game on East as it was getting boring, and all my friends quit. I started playing Guild Wars, where I traded all my East gear for Guild Wars Gold. Which was a mistake, cause I hate the PvE aspect of Guild Wars for the MOST PART. :/ Pvp is the stuff though, regretably hardly a challenge due to me mostly playing the healer.

I'm not trying to troll, but 90% of the people on this forum think BvC's are gods. And there are many more classes that can kill them.

If I were to put on trap heavy gear, I'd easily hit 11-12k traps. Only losing Shadow arts level. And I've played a BvC, versus 11k traps/maxblock 10 frame cast. I had 7.6k life, 85 all res, and 48 fhr. It is a pain in the *** to tele past trap/mb lock. And to get out of it, I don't care who you are.

[mainaman]

I doubt anyone here thinks BvCs, are gods or at least I don't but I like them , since many ppl here play other chars as well. On the other hand if you claim thing such as bowa sorc can beat them , and i assume you mean consistently beat them, you better back up your statement.

If I were to put on trap heavy gear, I'd easily hit 11-12k traps. Only losing Shadow arts level. And I've played a BvC, versus 11k traps/maxblock 10 frame cast. I had 7.6k life, 85 all res, and 48 fhr. It is a pain in the *** to tele past trap/mb lock. And to get out of it... BvC takes quite some time to learn how to use , unlike trappers, and factors like minor lag can royally mess up a BvC performance. As for your mishapps against that trapper on a 7.6k life BvC i can say only one thing: Wow BvC is definetly not your class and I can understand why you hate them so much.

Box here and I have dueled he has c/c trapper and id assume 11-12k traps
i have 6.8k life BvC and i can definetely beat him unless i make mistakes or lag messes me up. I am not saying trapper or ww/trap sin or even ww sin can't beat BvCs ,but usually BvCs have the upper hand. Your claims of any kind of assasin totally destroying a BvC are ridiculous tho.

[Ce Olba]

*sigh*

Ww//Trappers ( atleast my kind), Do not aim for hitting the bvc with ww. That is foolish, what you said is correct and I'd loose more then I'd gain off it.

Well, your traps are pretty much useless. And as someone said, it's highly unlikely that he could reach all of those stats.

Well then, there is where the luck comes in, does the bvc preform is correct AND does he predict where im going? If so... I'd have the play the rest of the duel perfectly to stand a chance , if not it means I just layed him/her EXACTLY where I want them and its pretty much decided from there.

As I already said, I don't think that the plain luck can overrule the HUGE character advantage a BvC has over any assassin.

And as I've already said, I've dueled a perfectly geared trapper with 14k damage on Open with a BvC that was pretty much perfectly geared. Of course, the BvC I had made could exist on the realms and I think that mcm's BvC is the closest one to it. Of course I did not have stuff like ebug Beast or ebug Grief, but I did have a perfect 15% 400 Grief. I came on top of those duels majorly. And the opponent was a person who was one of the people who I've dueled against the most. I would say he was the second or third on the list of most-dueled people. And no, I am not a godly BvC player and he wasn't a godly trapper player either, but at least it shows that the traps, no matter what damage, are not that much of a threat against a good BvC.

Yes, I have met a few very good WW/Trappers and I've lost a few matches to a few of them, but overall I've had more victories than losses. And to clarify it, I've never done a ft5 since if and when I duel, I prefer to duel for at least 30 minutes so I end up with at least 10 duels. Of course, this doesn't apply in pubs. And yes, I do like dueling a skilled WW/Trapper since they are one of my favorite duels along with bonemancers and windies.

Damn, I wish I could get back to D2 soon so that I could finish tweaking my BvC. Need to probably remake him, get him a 20 stats torch, some better fcr rings, some better charms, better ravens (currently I have 247/18 and 241/20) and all those small tweaks. Also, I need to get a BvC to a high lvl, something like 93-95 so that I could have a decent life since I use AR/Life GCs I have a lack in my life (lvl 91 BvC with 65/49 base stats (adjusted from the 63/47 optimal due to torch) has 6110 life with Draculs, 6035 without). And yes, I cannot use my CoA and dual Dooms without Dracul's. Missing 3 in STR.

[Rabbitz]

I you had taken a took at what I said in the previous thread you'd know that ofc the bvc has and will have the upperhand. Just not in the sense that your implying.

I run a TOTALLY different version of a ww-sin then kaython, and I only run it to stand a chance with against bvcs.

[Box]

I doubt anyone here thinks BvCs, are gods or at least I don't but I like them , since many ppl here play other chars as well. On the other hand if you claim thing such as bowa sorc can beat them , and i assume you mean consistently beat them, you better back up your statement.

BvC takes quite some time to learn how to use , unlike trappers, and factors like minor lag can royally mess up a BvC performance. As for your mishapps against that trapper on a 7.6k life BvC i can say only one thing: Wow BvC is definetly not your class and I can understand why you hate them so much.

Box here and I have dueled he has c/c trapper and id assume 11-12k traps
i have 6.8k life BvC and i can definetely beat him unless i make mistakes or lag messes me up. I am not saying trapper or ww/trap sin or even ww sin can't beat BvCs ,but usually BvCs have the upper hand. Your claims of any kind of assasin totally destroying a BvC are ridiculous tho.

Yeah, you definately had the upper hand in those duels.

Then again, I swear I'm cursed when it comes to damage rolls, everyone on the planet can seem to tank more traps than I can.

And the reverse is true as well. I never seem to do as much damage to people as a trapper as they would to me. It sucks.

[KaythonXE]

I always have the upperhand in duels versus barbs, they can never touch me. I did alright on the BvC, mainly was playing it before I started ghostsin due to thinking they could tank more and outdamage the ghost. I was royally wrong here, the ghostsin outtanks the BvC any day. And while leap is effective, it is no where near as effective as traps for both seeing desynch and locking players.
Ww/trap > BvC any day. It makes it so you can't treat me like a plain trapper, or you'll get totally toasted. :(

Overall, ANY good player will have more wins than losses against a certain class, being as there are lots of people who play the classes with crap gear and/or crap skill.

The fact you don't use a 20/xx torch, or a xxx/20 raven is reason enough for me to believe you're pretty bad.

Maina, I've dueled you on D2pk, you're nothing spectacular. In fact, you're honestly really bad, regardless of what character you're on. You constantly whine about lag.

And you know it's the truth. Make a thread, any thread. Any character > BvC. All of a sudden Ce Olba and the rest of the groupies are in there zomgots 7k life > 4k life and ww. Can't forget the ww. And then they spout random meaningless crap. My sorc has never lost to a barb.
2.8k life / 4.3k mana 19k fbs, 105 fcr 75% block 41% dr. 5 frame fhr. Wug BvCs? D:

[Arbedark]

Well, your traps are pretty much useless. And as someone said, it's highly unlikely that he could reach all of those stats.



As I already said, I don't think that the plain luck can overrule the HUGE character advantage a BvC has over any assassin.

And as I've already said, I've dueled a perfectly geared trapper with 14k damage on Open with a BvC that was pretty much perfectly geared. Of course, the BvC I had made could exist on the realms and I think that mcm's BvC is the closest one to it. Of course I did not have stuff like ebug Beast or ebug Grief, but I did have a perfect 15% 400 Grief. I came on top of those duels majorly. And the opponent was a person who was one of the people who I've dueled against the most. I would say he was the second or third on the list of most-dueled people. And no, I am not a godly BvC player and he wasn't a godly trapper player either, but at least it shows that the traps, no matter what damage, are not that much of a threat against a good BvC.

Yes, I have met a few very good WW/Trappers and I've lost a few matches to a few of them, but overall I've had more victories than losses. And to clarify it, I've never done a ft5 since if and when I duel, I prefer to duel for at least 30 minutes so I end up with at least 10 duels. Of course, this doesn't apply in pubs. And yes, I do like dueling a skilled WW/Trapper since they are one of my favorite duels along with bonemancers and windies.

Damn, I wish I could get back to D2 soon so that I could finish tweaking my BvC. Need to probably remake him, get him a 20 stats torch, some better fcr rings, some better charms, better ravens (currently I have 247/18 and 241/20) and all those small tweaks. Also, I need to get a BvC to a high lvl, something like 93-95 so that I could have a decent life since I use AR/Life GCs I have a lack in my life (lvl 91 BvC with 65/49 base stats (adjusted from the 63/47 optimal due to torch) has 6110 life with Draculs, 6035 without). And yes, I cannot use my CoA and dual Dooms without Dracul's. Missing 3 in STR.

So basically you dueled a "random" trapper and claim thats its no danger...

Way to go reasoning there...

Since you always tell people to never compare a pubby BvC to a good one, why don't you listen to your own advice and not compare a pubby level Trapper to a good one.

Equal skill with the characters BvC has advantage but the traps are hardly "not much of a threat"...

[Arbedark]

I always have the upperhand in duels versus barbs, they can never touch me. I did alright on the BvC, mainly was playing it before I started ghostsin due to thinking they could tank more and outdamage the ghost. I was royally wrong here, the ghostsin outtanks the BvC any day. And while leap is effective, it is no where near as effective as traps for both seeing desynch and locking players.
Ww/trap > BvC any day. It makes it so you can't treat me like a plain trapper, or you'll get totally toasted. :(

Overall, ANY good player will have more wins than losses against a certain class, being as there are lots of people who play the classes with crap gear and/or crap skill.

The fact you don't use a 20/xx torch, or a xxx/20 raven is reason enough for me to believe you're pretty bad.

Get your facts right.

A top end ghost and a top end barb have approximately the same "durability".

4.4k Life Sin with 60% Block = 7040 effective Life. Around the same as a high end BvC...

[KaythonXE]

Untrue. The fact that I can tank 10+ hammers on my sin, and barbs would drool over the chance at doing so is proof itself. Ghosts tank more than bvcs.

[Ce Olba]

So basically you dueled a "random" trapper and claim thats its no danger...

Isn't a random trapper. Guaranteed that he wasn't the best of them either, but the fact that he has dueled against all of my three BvCs totaling at several hundreds of duels lets him know my playing style pretty damn well.

Since you always tell people to never compare a pubby BvC to a good one, why don't you listen to your own advice and not compare a pubby level Trapper to a good one.

It wasn't about killing them, it was about the damage. The damage does not take skill. Think for two seconds to realize this. Nowhere did I ever say that I used him as an example of a good trapper. The damage is all I wanted.

Equal skill with the characters BvC has advantage but the traps are hardly "not much of a threat"...

Well, 14k traps are not nice at their 357 damage per blast, but even so your 189.5 per blast is nothing compared to them. Also, the fact that I've pretty much never lost to a plain trapper, whom have way much higher damage than any ww/trapper will ever have already shows that the damage is not that much of a big deal.

The fact you don't use a 20/xx torch, or a xxx/20 raven is reason enough for me to believe you're pretty bad.

So, the fact that I've not played D2 for a year so there's no way that I could've yet found a 20 stats torch and the fact that I didn't want to waste time to get tradeables to get perfect ravens makes me a bad dueler? You know what, the difference in AR is minimal. 3 dexterity and 12 AR, totals at 421.2 AR after all multipliers. With 9377 AR already, that 421.2 would be merely an increase of 4.49% of my AR. And yes, I do plan to get perfect ones as soon as I get a new PC. You know how much that 421.2 AR affects my CtH? A good guess would be around three or four decimals.

You know, so far the only thing you have shown of yourself is excuses why not to duel. Luis didn't want to waste time with you, with mcm you came up with excuses. Didn't you do that with everyone else? Why? You should know that if you are going to post here, your excuses will be meaningless and you are expected to duel at full performance.

[KaythonXE]

The damage adds up, lets average that to 400 per trap. 10 blasts per trap, thats 4000 damage per trap. Five traps, that's 20k damage, almost three top end bvcs are dead. Also, mb does damage, I believe it's around 20-30ish per hit, depending on how many you put in there.

Plain trappers are different that ww/trap. If you do manage to tele on a trapper, they don't ww away and pretty much smack you for around 500 damage + ow. Ow doing, I believe you said, 600 ish damage. Trappers you can triwhirl, because they have no way to get out of it besides tele/run. Tele get's interupted, running loses their block.

Ww/trap have the ability to ww away, meaning you can't really tri-whirl them. The actual damage of the traps aren't really the point, the higher the damage the more damage over time you can do to your opponent. Eventually you will end up killing your opponent, as long as you aren't dead. A BvC has very little opportunities to kill the ww/trap due to trap/mb lock and their ability to ww away and make you bleed.

[Arbedark]

Untrue. The fact that I can tank 10+ hammers on my sin, and barbs would drool over the chance at doing so is proof itself. Ghosts tank more than bvcs.

Pull more numbers out your rectum boy.

10 Hammers = 4 Hammers hit (law of probability) = dead sin after 3 hammers tops. And this is assuming that via the law of averages you don't eat 3 hammers in a row straight off.

[KaythonXE]

Depends on the damage of hammers you are talking about.

[PhuQ]

The damage adds up, lets average that to 400 per trap. 10 blasts per trap, thats 4000 damage per trap. Five traps, that's 20k damage, almost three top end bvcs are dead. Also, mb does damage, I believe it's around 20-30ish per hit, depending on how many you put in there.

Plain trappers are different that ww/trap. If you do manage to tele on a trapper, they don't ww away and pretty much smack you for around 500 damage + ow. Ow doing, I believe you said, 600 ish damage. Trappers you can triwhirl, because they have no way to get out of it besides tele/run. Tele get's interupted, running loses their block.

Ww/trap have the ability to ww away, meaning you can't really tri-whirl them. The actual damage of the traps aren't really the point, the higher the damage the more damage over time you can do to your opponent. Eventually you will end up killing your opponent, as long as you aren't dead. A BvC has very little opportunities to kill the ww/trap due to trap/mb lock and their ability to ww away and make you bleed.


do you really think that BvC would stay in you traps and wait till they all fire? Are you just ignorant or really stupid?

[Arbedark]

Depends on the damage of hammers you are talking about.

I'm talking about non-idiot Hammers.

To take 4 Hammers at 4.4k Life hammers need to be 6.6k...which = craptastic ghettodin...

[Ce Olba]

The damage adds up, lets average that to 400 per trap. 10 blasts per trap, thats 4000 damage per trap. Five traps, that's 20k damage, almost three top end bvcs are dead. Also, mb does damage, I believe it's around 20-30ish per hit, depending on how many you put in there.

Again you are assuming that you don't die first. Remember that you take 900 damage each 4 frames. However, with your 60% block, it would take a whole lot of 1.536 seconds of whirling to kill you instead of 0.96 seconds. And your traps won't shoot 6000ish damage in 1.5 seconds, it's just plain impossible, even for a pure trapper.

Plain trappers are different that ww/trap. If you do manage to tele on a trapper, they don't ww away and pretty much smack you for around 500 damage + ow. Ow doing, I believe you said, 600 ish damage. Trappers you can triwhirl, because they have no way to get out of it besides tele/run. Tele get's interupted, running loses their block.

Stop making up stuff. I'm using pure trappers as an example because their trap damage is way greater than yours. Also, as many have said, your stats pretty much seem impossible. Also, the fact that you use charms that are not possible on the realms already makes you a laughing stock.

Ww/trap have the ability to ww away, meaning you can't really tri-whirl them. The actual damage of the traps aren't really the point, the higher the damage the more damage over time you can do to your opponent. Eventually you will end up killing your opponent, as long as you aren't dead. A BvC has very little opportunities to kill the ww/trap due to trap/mb lock and their ability to ww away and make you bleed.

It doesn't matter. You traps to pathetic damage and the BvC outdamages you. As i showed earlier, in constant whirling, you are dead after 1.536 of whirling, on-paper. Of course, CtH has to be taken into account which probably doubles or triples the amount of time. Doesn't matter, your traps cannot cannot do 6000 damage in 3 or 4.5 seconds. Actually, the BvC can withstand 7 shots from all of your traps at the same time. Considering that they fire at around twice per second, that takes 3.5 seconds. On the other hand, the 1.536 did not include OW or CB at all.

To take 4 Hammers at 4.4k Life hammers need to be 6.6k...which = craptastic ghettodin...

A pure damage hammerdin would kill him in 2 hammers. A 9-11k one would do that in 3 hammers. And those 9-11k ones have just about the same life as the sins do.

[Arbedark]

Again you are assuming that you don't die first. Remember that you take 900 damage each 4 frames. However, with your 60% block, it would take a whole lot of 1.536 seconds of whirling to kill you instead of 0.96 seconds. And your traps won't shoot 6000ish damage in 1.5 seconds, it's just plain impossible, even for a pure trapper.

900 damage every 4 frames?

So your BvC does 10.8k damage?

[KaythonXE]

Ce Olba is basically the biggest BvC groupie I've ever heard of. I think he has like 3 or 4 of the same character, all mediocre geared. Anyyways, he talks so much stuff, but then won't come onto a realm where you could easily make the char with pretty perfect gear in 4-5 hours.

[Ce Olba]

Ce Olba is basically the biggest BvC groupie I've ever heard of. I think he has like 3 or 4 of the same character, all mediocre geared. Anyyways, he talks so much stuff, but then won't come onto a realm where you could easily make the char with pretty perfect gear in 4-5 hours.

I don't have 3 or 4 of the same character. I have a single BvC. For my character, you should be able to find about my gear in some of my posts or the topics I've made.

I won't come to such a realm because I need a new damn PC to play any game at all. And I'm getting one at the end of this year, so another 10 months. And even then I wouldn't come, I want to practice on my BvC and get (yes, find) him a 20 stats torch and then trade for some better stuff.

The closest to a movement would be a different realm, but that's unlikely since from what I hear West and East are even more filled with dupes than Europe. Don't want to go around gathering wealth just to make sure my boots won't poof after I exit a game.

900 damage every 4 frames?

So your BvC does 10.8k damage?

Actually, with 900 every 4 frames it would be 10588. Oh, I forgot, that 900 is Beast and Grief. And 900 is rounded down from 968.

Well, like this then:
Grief 660.7
Beast 307.3

4th frame: 660.7 damage
8th: 968 (1628.7)
12th: 968 (2596.7)
16th: 968 (3564.7)
20th: 968 (4532.7)
24th: 968 (5500.7)

However, since you have 60% blocking, the damage is reduced to 40%. So the 5500.7 is actually 2200.28. Now, 2.25 * 2200.28 = 4950.63. So the amount of time is actually 2.25 * 24 = 54 frames. 54 / 25 = 2.16. However, due to CtH, the effective damage is reduced to 30%, thus the 5500.7 is actually 1650.21. Now, that multiplied by 3 is 4950.63. So the actual amount of time is 24 * 2.25 * 3 = 162. 162 / 25 = 6.48 seconds. I guess I was a bit wrong. However, the amount of hits and blocks is, in practice, random, so the 6.48 does not necessarily represent a truthful number. And yes, 6.48 * 2 * 190 * 5 = 12255 so the BvC would die tanking. But again, that's on paper.

[KaythonXE]

so the BvC would die tanking.
Done, you admitted it.

[Ce Olba]

Done, you admitted it.

That's in theory. And what's a normal defense for a WW/Trapper? I want to have a more accurate version of the previous.

Plus, the calculations don't account OW. Statistically, OW would trigger 60% of the time, thus, statistically it would trigger 20.25 times during the duel. Now, since it lasts for 6.48, you receive 6.48/8 * 612.5 = 496.125 additional damage. That makes it a lot easier, since he now needs 1 less hitcheck, so 135 frames aka 5.4 seconds to kill you. 5.4 * 2 * 189.5 * 5 = 10233. However that's again IN THEORY.

Whatever is in theory doesn't always go through in practice. He could hit you five times in a row, causing an average of 2.4 OWs and 4532.7 damage. And that could be in 20 frames aka 0.8 seconds.

[HappyAssassin]

I would point out that for all the theory crafting here, plenty of these people duel on d2pk and you can set up a duel if you really want to. Please keep in mind to be courteous in posting your results, this isn't the 'other' forum.

[KaythonXE]

Mainaman blames lag, Camden is just bad, Ce Olba won't switch, Luis dodged, and I don't know any others. I don't know the normal defense.

[Ce Olba]

Mainaman blames lag, Camden is just bad, Ce Olba won't switch, Luis dodged, and I don't know any others. I don't know the normal defense.

I'm not even playing currently due to PC problems.

Go to West and ask mcm. Or try to get him to d2pk.

[Arbedark]

That's in theory. And what's a normal defense for a WW/Trapper? I want to have a more accurate version of the previous.

Plus, the calculations don't account OW. Statistically, OW would trigger 60% of the time, thus, statistically it would trigger 20.25 times during the duel. Now, since it lasts for 6.48, you receive 6.48/8 * 612.5 = 496.125 additional damage. That makes it a lot easier, since he now needs 1 less hitcheck, so 135 frames aka 5.4 seconds to kill you. 5.4 * 2 * 189.5 * 5 = 10233. However that's again IN THEORY.

Whatever is in theory doesn't always go through in practice. He could hit you five times in a row, causing an average of 2.4 OWs and 4532.7 damage. And that could be in 20 frames aka 0.8 seconds.

Your calculations also seem to be missing 50% PDR...

[Ce Olba]

Your calculations also seem to be missing 50% PDR...

Where? The 660.7 and the 307.3 already include PDR. 660.7/0.5/0.17 = 7772.94118. Want me to go on how to break it back to 47.5? 307.3/0.5/0.17 = 3615.29412.

OW is not affected by PDR%. And Traps and elemental. So where?

[PhuQ]

Your calculations also seem to be missing 50% PDR...

Ce Olba does not count with 95 lres and whatnot as well

Arbedark: What´s the point of this flame? Clearly Sins > BvC thread. I´m just flaming more.

[Arbedark]

Where? The 660.7 and the 307.3 already include PDR. 660.7/0.5/0.17 = 7772.94118. Want me to go on how to break it back to 47.5? 307.3/0.5/0.17 = 3615.29412.

OW is not affected by PDR%. And Traps and elemental. So where?

Meh, I just assumed that you'd factor in DR% later on. Ignore that.

Edit: Also I just skim read as I'm doing work atm.

PhuQ: Whats the point dueling with 95% Light Res? Seriously...

[Camden]

Mainaman blames lag, Camden is just bad, Ce Olba won't switch, Luis dodged, and I don't know any others. I don't know the normal defense.

You don't even know what my d2pk account is.

Then again you're already known for speaking out your ***.

[KaythonXE]

Bvc still dead before 5.4 frames are up. Plus, I would be wwing, did you account that damage? 800-1.6/900-2k. 13k ar with this setup, 9k traps. You know the venom damage. Hitting the last ww bp, do the math now.

You're bad, your necro is bad. :(

[Ce Olba]

Meh, I just assumed that you'd factor in DR% later on. Ignore that.

Edit: Also I just skim read as I'm doing work atm.

PhuQ: Whats the point dueling with 95% Light Res? Seriously...

Also, 95% LR is nearly impossible to get without huge sacrifices. I'm already accounting 85% LR, so you would need another 10%. From where? Fortitude would mean no teleport. Of course you could replace CoA with a Lo'ed Arreat's and end up with 113 damage per trap which would make the total damage dealt into 5.4 * 2 * 113 * 5 = 6102 which would mean the BvC would win, even on paper.

So, 90% LR with a mere 75% PR makes your sin lose even in theory. And the only three gear switches from the pub setup would be coa -> arreats, resistance boots -> gores and arachnid -> TGod's.

As for the WW damage, I could add it to it too.

With 13k Ar you have approximately 50% chance to hit. Your additional damage from Venom is 11.475 per frame aka 0.5 * 11.475 * 4 = 22.95 per hit. Your physical damage adds 124.44 + 150.365 = 274.805 per hit. With 50% CtH that's 137.4025 total added. So, in total, your attacks do an approximate of 160.3525 damage per hit. However, this is with 39% PDR. So, over 5.4 seconds you would do 5.4 * (160.3525/4*25) = 5411.8969. In theory.

However, theory does not matter since the chance to hit and the chance to block are simply chances, not absolute multipliers. There's the chance that you could miss all of your hits and the barbarian could hit 5 times in a row, for an example. Or there's the chance that you could block all of his hits and hit only criticals.

Also, there's the chance that the BvC could out-range you and thus your WW damage wouldn't matter.

[KaythonXE]

I only see you accounting for trap damage.

[jake007]

One of the biggest advantage the hybridsin have in this matchup is traps and shadow master. The cumulative stun can stop you from getting a good tele-whirl and is particularly annoying for aggressive bvc players (like me.)

I do think however, with Tgod BvC > Hybridsins. Most good hybrids I fought relied on trap&run(tele).

[Ce Olba]

I only see you accounting for trap damage.

I see you did not read my whole post.

[Arbedark]

I see you did not read my whole post.

Posted before the Edit, but NM.

Are your calculations tanking hit for hit? (Assuming all LS's hit and that in WW range and WW checks 100% of the time?)

[Ce Olba]

Posted before the Edit, but NM.

Are your calculations tanking hit for hit? (Assuming all LS's hit and that in WW range and WW checks 100% of the time?)

The Venom and WW damages are multiplied by the chance to hit which is approximately 50% with 13k AR.

The BvCs damage was posted earlier. However, there might be some flaws as the calcs are done pretty much in real-time.

Also, there's the factor that chance to hit is merely a chance thus the calculations are only correct in theory and in case the 50% chance to hit applies always at exactly 50%, as in hitting once, missing once and so on.

[KaythonXE]

Even though. We don't know what barb stats you used.
Also, it's all redundant being you'll never really get close enough to ww me in the first place.

[Ce Olba]

Even though. We don't know what barb stats you used.
Also, it's all redundant being you'll never really get close enough to ww me in the first place.

The stats? You mean the damage multipliers? I used those on my own welfare BvC. Of course the Chance to do double damage was that of lvl 99 Highlord's.

And again I can bring in Widowmaker. It forces you to play offensive or die.

And there's always the chance that the barbarian will score a few hits with max damage and critical, thus killing you almost instantly.

[KaythonXE]

And yet you still don't seem to understand that you never hit me due to being mb/trap locked.

[Ce Olba]

And yet you still don't seem to understand that you never hit me due to being mb/trap locked.

And yet you fail to understand, even via my example of a real trapper, that your traps a) do ****ty damage b) are easy to escape via WW.

[KaythonXE]

You can escape them via ww, but ww too short and you haven't escaped anything. Ww too long, and I can reset the traps up again and mb lock you. There is no in between, once you're locked you're locked til death.

[Box]

Here kaython, I'll duel ya on thursday or friday.

my bro's BvC vs your hyrbid.

d2pk ofc.

[KaythonXE]

Sure thing Box.

[Ce Olba]

You can escape them via ww, but ww too short and you haven't escaped anything. Ww too long, and I can reset the traps up again and mb lock you. There is no in between, once you're locked you're locked til death.

Sorry, but that's not true. Otherwise trappers would be the top-tier duelers, but they are far from that.

And if there is "too short" and "too long", there has to be something in-between. Logic says so.

And what says I won't be mean and use a Wisp? Not that it would be needed since a BvC is pretty much always superior to WW/Trappers. Heck, even the so-called expert on those and at the same time the mod of the PvP forum, HappyAssassin, says so. He said that the assassin needs to play perfectly. However, as we all know, perfect is never humanly possible. Specially not if there's such a random factor as luck involved. Thus, the WW/Trapper has a slim chance of victory.

[KaythonXE]

I looked at Happy Assassin's guide, and was not impressed at all.
<----|-------------->
Too short Too long
Nothing in between, meaning you can't get out of trap lock. :(

[Ce Olba]

I looked at Happy Assassin's guide, and was not impressed at all.
<----|-------------->
Too short Too long
Nothing in between, meaning you can't get out of trap lock. :(

There is something between. If, in your example, too short is 4 and too long is 14, thus "in-between" is anything between 4 and 14, so 5-13. If there was nothing in-between they would need to be of the exact same length. Use your brain for once.

[KaythonXE]

Actually, my example was to show that anything from 1-4 is too short, and anything from 5-14 is too long.

Wisp + tgods = bm you auto lose. Wisp alone takes off less damage I'm pretty sure.

[Rabbitz]

Kaython, from what I heard your build isnt even anti melee.

If otherwise, please state your stats please?

[KaythonXE]

My ww/trap build? It's anti everything? o-O

[dthseeker]

My ww/trap build? It's anti everything? o-O

duh rabbitz ww/trap >>> all ezpk

[Arbedark]

duh rabbitz ww/trap >>> all ezpk

True true...

[KaythonXE]

Not what I was saying, I specifically made it to not carry gear switches, because it's boring to switch out say tgods or hotspurs for the sorcs.

I have stacked cold res, lite res, max dr, lots of life. 20% stack fr/pr.

[Rabbitz]

What part of my question wasnt clear? Are you built specificly to kill melee?

If not, tell me ur eq + stats please?

[HappyAssassin]

However, as we all know, perfect is never humanly possible.

When I say perfectly I mean without mistakes, which is entirely possible.

Kaython, if you can come up with a better WWsin build that can be made on the realms, I'm all ears.

[KaythonXE]

No I'm not specifically built to kill melee. I'd go ahead and make a guide, but the last one I made was spammed and got closed. So I'm not going to waste my time with that again.

[Arbedark]

No I'm not specifically built to kill melee. I'd go ahead and make a guide, but the last one I made was spammed and got closed. So I'm not going to waste my time with that again.

We don't want a guide. Just list your gear.

But since you don't we're all going to assume you're lying.

[dthseeker]

he's come a long way in 5 months
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=496684
:D

edit: who really cares? he claims ww/sin > bvc cool frankly if I was annoyed by him would hit the ignore button, but really it's just a game and he's a random internet guy, who if you take 2 steps away from the computer doesn't mean anything

[KaythonXE]

Helm: Circlet, 2sin/20fcr/visionary/30str/20dex/30res 15/15'd(res/ias), ber
Armor: Eth Glitched Dusk Enigma
Gloves: Trangs
Weapon1:Eth glitched Runic Chaos +3venom/+3ls/+2mb
Weapon2: Eth glitched Runic 2sin/300ed/20max/fools/+3venom/+3litesentry/+2fade UmUm
Amulet: 2sin/30str/20dex/60life/90 mana/30res OR 2sin/10fcr/30str/20dex/60life/30res
Ring1:20/250 raven
Ring2:20/250 raven or 10fcr/120ar/15dex/40life/90mana/15 res
Belt: Arachs
Boots: 2/25 dancers
Switch: cta/spirit

Normally prebuff with 2x +3sa/+3venom/+3fade/+2sm claws, but only in gm team games where I don't carry my cta/spirit.

Charms are a 20/20 anni, various charms. Depending on opponents and stuff, but in a 'pub' I guess you could say I'd wear 12x 32020s, 5x shadow gcs, rest 20/5s.

he's come a long way from this
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=496684
:D
Cute.

[HappyAssassin]

The only thing different there is the x12 3/xx/20s instead of 4 shadow gcs, but meh. D2PK gear is extreme, you have to take into account that everyone he's dueling is comprably equipped.

[KaythonXE]

Your guide in general didn't do much, I was in a game with Max and I asked him for suggestions. And he told me some dueling tips, and strategies, and to read you guide. But I read some of it, came back and he said nevermind. And I agree'd, not much in your guide. :/

[Rabbitz]

My equipment is sup par compaired to that but meh, its on the realms.

Why 3/20/20s and not the better 36/20s?

[KaythonXE]

Physical damage, and the fact I can't roll 36/20s.

[dthseeker]

Your guide in general didn't do much, I was in a game with Max and I asked him for suggestions. And he told me some dueling tips, and strategies, and to read you guide. But I read some of it, came back and he said nevermind. And I agree'd, not much in your guide. :/

was that to Happy? *confused*

[Rabbitz]

Physical damage, and the fact I can't roll 36/20s.

D2pk sounds interesting, mind pming me the details?

[KaythonXE]

Done.
Yes it was to happy, I found his guide went over the basics of the game. Nothing special.

[Von Lazuli]

Blah... I acctually play a WW/Trap. A regular one, with decent, but not rediculous gear.

BvCs simply out damage you. If they get a whirl in, and you are still, you WILL lose about a third of your health. The only real way I have discovered to cause decent damage is to stand next to your traps (5 on one spot, the only way to trap :P, well the only way for this trick) and then tele just as they finish leaping/start to tele. That way you can get clear and they take a single trap burst. Unfortunately it relies on twitch timing and so I find it very difficult to get right. My other alternative is to simply whirl across my traps as they begin to tele, hopefully causing a little damage/applying open wounds while only taking one or two hits. If they whirl with you, you are dead.

@Kaython: MB + Trap stun? Versus a moving BvC? If you do not use Wake of Fire or do not set up your traps in a perfect crossfire (i.e A perfect circle around the barb...) They can simply Short whirl then run out. You should know this... how often do you do it against Trappers?

Laz

[PitBoxer]

Hmm I play hybrid assa since 6-8 months now and I just wanted to say that
A good bvc > any assa type, even 13 k traps + max buffed hybrid assa's.

[PitBoxer]

D2pk sounds interesting, mind pming me the details?

aka 200 ping for europe players.

[Rabbitz]

Heh, and how do you think Euro has been the past few months?

[PitBoxer]

Heh, and how do you think Euro has been the past few months?

30 % jb + 30 % lag games :)

I play euro ^^

Ben Belg =)

[Rabbitz]

Yea I figured that :P. But 200 ping seems decent when faced with a constant170-300

[SicHalo]

i know propobably no one will listen but a BvC>WW/Trapper most of the time, i use both build WW/trapper is certainly an impressive build but here are some problems vs th barb,


range
Is number 1 the sin only uses a range 2 claw versus a typical range 3 weaps from the barb.

Damage
Sure a sin does nice dmg but vs the power of grief + beast it fails in comparison which means no dirrect ww for ww exchanges.

Life Difference
Ok average sin usally of this hybrid does 3.5k-4k assuming a well built one vs 6.5k to a max of 8k depending on stat or vita bvc.


Although a sin has block u have to factor the low defence and then factor the block in, Even with trapps in gm fight ur allowed 1 absorb so say a tg this does not quite nurf the trapps but it takes a hell lot more of those trapps to damage you.

Also its no good therocrafting on paper posting a bunch of "impressive" or highly prebuffed stats, where it takes like 5 mins to prebuff then to duel. Most of whats posted above is from experience. Sure while on my sin i have beaten bellow-average barbs but even when i play vs strong barbs my wining percentage was still very low.

Also BvCs strong capability of widow is very handy in this fight as a barbs bo is naturally high anyway so u can last and simply spam ga's which slowly dmg with ow etc which will force the sin in most cases offensive and i can stand off screen with my bow.

[KaythonXE]

If I were to prebuff, I'd do insane damage. +70% more poison damage, +6 to venom. Insane eh?

Anyways, When they short whirl, you can reset your traps up around them. Running doesn't get them very far, and of course you use WoF to initially trap them.

Range: Yes they have superior range, but they also have a problem with getting to you.
Damage: Ce Olba has already shown over the time needed for a barb to kill a sin, they will be dead long before.
Life Difference: They have superior life, but the only thing that can outlife a barb is a Fury druid and a really high max vita druid.

[SicHalo]

leap m8 this is also uniteruptable attack i have never ever been pinned down or locked up on my barb ever. Whirlwind usually gets u out of most problems leap is equally as good. and yes using WoF mean one less trap which mean lower overall dmg and no Wof has never seemed to lock me up either. And yes i use this on my sin as it locks pretty much everything else up apart from a charging pally or a whirling leaping barb with the mb spam +WoF and odd trapps.

[KaythonXE]

Incorrect, Leap is not an attack. A long leap takes forever, and you can easily see where they're going to land so locking them is easy when they leap. Also, when you leap you smash into the ground after landing, giving more time for the sin to lock you up. Short whirls don't work, nor do long whirls. Charge is relatively hard to lock, but smiters will likely either tele-smite or charge at you. Hdins you can lock their area so throwing hammers is hard/impossible, so charge isn't a problem either.

[KaythonXE]

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6156/screenshot061hr6.jpg
There was a duel versus a bvc.
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/783/screenshot064we7.jpg
Another
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4607/screenshot063vu7.jpg
Another

[mainaman]

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6156/screenshot061hr6.jpg
There was a duel versus a bvc.meh one kill.
all barb has to do is leap and you cant mb anymore its about time you sinc that in your head...
ill duel you if you are on late at night after 11 pm eastern , let me know

[KaythonXE]

It's actually three kills.
If anyone is wondering, I was listening to Stricken - Disturbed during the third kill, Crossfade - Invincible during the first kill, and Breaking Benjamin - Blow me away during the second one. :D

[mainaman]

It's actually three kills.
If anyone is wondering, I was listening to Stricken - Disturbed during the third kill, Crossfade - Invincible during the first kill, and Breaking Benjamin - Blow me away during the second one. :D
good to know anyway lets duel , are you gonna be on after 11 pm eastern tonight?

i see you edited your pic post.

[KaythonXE]

It's 8:56 am right now, I've been going to bed at 9pm whatever my time zone is.

[Arbedark]

Even though. We don't know what barb stats you used.
Also, it's all redundant being you'll never really get close enough to ww me in the first place.

Yet you have less than half life for all 3 duels?

[KaythonXE]

Called me wwing then to finish them off because bored of chasing?

[mainaman]

It's 8:56 am right now, I've been going to bed at 9pm whatever my time zone is.
so we are not dueling?

[KaythonXE]

Not tonight anyways, weekends would be better. I've been getting up early early to walk my friend Megan to school. Uhm.. Plus I'm having computer issues that if anyone knows anything about computers and think they can help, let me know. :X If you fix the problem, I'll give you some d2 stuff. :D

[mainaman]

Not tonight anyways, weekends would be better. I've been getting up early early to walk my friend Megan to school. Uhm.. Plus I'm having computer issues that if anyone knows anything about computers and think they can help, let me know. :X If you fix the problem, I'll give you some d2 stuff. :Dwell share the problem i might be able to help, no need for items.
um saturday sounds fine , pm me on d2pk well set up a time.

[KaythonXE]

Doesn't seem to happen much at all when I do things on firefox, but if I look at like youtube or load any game such as guild wars or diablo 2, maybe 30 minutes of playing and the computer just shuts down and restarts. When it comes back, if it comes back, it says your syster has recovered from a serious error. Then the details show this.
C:\DOCUME~1\Jared\LOCALS~1\Temp\WER73dc.dir00\Mini 022807-01.dmp
C:\DOCUME~1\Jared\LOCALS~1\Temp\WER73dc.dir00\sysd ata.xml

Sometimes, when it restarts, it'll say something like
The system could not start because Ntfs.sys is corrupt or missing.

And then maybe after a few restarts windows actually loads. I've looked into the problem for a while on the internet, and no solutions have worked that they have suggested. :/

I'm using the windows xp that's designed for 64x or something. -_-;

[mainaman]

Doesn't seem to happen much at all when I do things on firefox, but if I look at like youtube or load any game such as guild wars or diablo 2, maybe 30 minutes of playing and the computer just shuts down and restarts. When it comes back, if it comes back, it says your syster has recovered from a serious error. Then the details show this.
C:\DOCUME~1\Jared\LOCALS~1\Temp\WER73dc.dir00\Mini 022807-01.dmp
C:\DOCUME~1\Jared\LOCALS~1\Temp\WER73dc.dir00\sysd ata.xml

Sometimes, when it restarts, it'll say something like
The system could not start because Ntfs.sys is corrupt or missing.

And then maybe after a few restarts windows actually loads. I've looked into the problem for a while on the internet, and no solutions have worked that they have suggested. :/

I'm using the windows xp that's designed for 64x or something. -_-;
if you are using Windows Vista and your cpu does not support 64 bit , you will have problems

you said you have problems with Ntfs.sys well that sounds like your hard drive file system might have bad sectors.
There is ageneral solution to the problem , reinstall WindowsXp and you should be fine.
you might want to run a diagnostic utility to determine if your comp can run Windows Vista, im sure there is a free one on microsoft website.

[KaythonXE]

It's not windows vista, it was like.. Windows 64x or something. It was a pain to use, because I could barely find any antivirus that worked with it. I don't want to install windows xp again. :/ That's the thing.

[Uncle_Mike]

It's not windows vista, it was like.. Windows 64x or something. It was a pain to use, because I could barely find any antivirus that worked with it. I don't want to install windows xp again. :/ That's the thing.

Too much off-topic here :closed: