View Full Version : ISO information on ww AR from fools claw.
wizAdept
03-02-2007, 02:04
As we know, assassin ww while dual weilding only shows 1 ar number in character screen, the question I want to get answered is: is only primary claw AR used for ww attacks (for both the primary and offhand attacks from ww) or does each claw use it's own AR?
Can't seem to find any info on this, help appreciated.
Smithenator
03-02-2007, 03:48
each claw uses its own ar, but from what Ive been told the primary has 1 more hit than the secondary
wizAdept
03-02-2007, 04:33
each claw uses its own ar, but from what Ive been told the primary has 1 more hit than the secondary
Can anyone confirm this as a fact that each claw uses its own ar?
Smithenator
03-02-2007, 07:40
Ilkori can as a matter of fact..
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=529362
In that thread near the bottom of his post he mentions how the ar and ow sticks to its own claw, dont mind the stuff I was wrong about concerning dual wielding ww mechanics.
I need to figure out how to quote outside of the original thread..
I don't *know* that for a fact. It's my best theory with the info I have.
There is a ton of testing I'd love to do with whirlwind, but I'm hardly even on the realms enough to think about it.
wizAdept
06-02-2007, 10:00
I don't *know* that for a fact. It's my best theory with the info I have.
There is a ton of testing I'd love to do with whirlwind, but I'm hardly even on the realms enougary claw, and it is used for both claw's attacks in ww.h to think about it.
Yeah that's what I was concerned about, everyone has their logical guess on how it works, but no one was really sure. =\
Well anyways, I did some asking around of asn gurus I know, and tested by comparing claws against fat wwbarbs that showed me that there in fact only one ar value, that of the primary claw, and its used for both claw's attacks in ww.
Looks like fools has to be on the primary claw to make it work.
This changed my setup a bit, kinda dissapointed that I couldnt get fools warfist to work southpaw'd because it would have to be offhand, but whatever. Test. Learn. Adapt.
Setups revised on d2pk wwsin.
HappyAssassin
06-02-2007, 11:02
I've been seeing this also, notably the time I experimented with speed bugging. The speed bugged setup (Fools Suwayyah glove side, Chaos Runic boot side) hit less often in duels. We tested with a 10k def barb and the difference was noticable. I know this is nothing new, just confirming with a little more evidence.
mephiztophelez
06-02-2007, 12:12
Looks like fools has to be on the primary claw to make it work.
oh sh*t.
well, nice to have it 'confirmed'. will swap claws over and go with 8/3&10 rather than 7/3&9. will report back.
gfahgh.
wizAdept
06-02-2007, 22:01
I've been seeing this also, notably the time I experimented with speed bugging. The speed bugged setup (Fools Suwayyah glove side, Chaos Runic boot side) hit less often in duels. We tested with a 10k def barb and the difference was noticable. Yeah that was pretty much my experience with it.
I now switched to G. Suwayyah Chaos and a rare fools Runic southpawed, nice to know the high min damage chaos is getting the fools bonus. ~.^
On a side note while testing out claws to see how they perform, having Suwayyah/Runic southpawed with fools mod damaged barbs significantly faster than using a Warfist/Wristsword southpaw setup without fools, despite the Warfist having significantly higher damage. (1.9-3.2k / 2.8-4k physical ww damage with 500%ED eth Warfist setup, compared to 1.1-2.8k / 2.1-3.5k physical with 300%ED/fools eth Runic setup)
Fools just amounts to a whole lot more damage quicker, even though you can get much nicer numbers on the character screen with other setups, as you can see by that the min damage on the Warfist is as high as the max damage on the Runic fools.
If we were to do testing, it would make the most sense using a Barb that had two weapons doing the same damage (i.e. min1 = min2, and min>max for both). Range 3 weapons also make the most sense to help even out the number of checks per pass.
Glad to hear something a bit more concrete, sucks to hear I was wrong...
I tested on single player with an editor a few months back. This is what i used:
Chaos with ww ar of 5
High AR Claw (HAC) with +1 ww, with ww ar of ~84,000
Opponent with defense of 20k
I applied poison damage over time, 125% open wound, and knockback on the claws accordingly as reporters.
One claw setup
If i use one chaos.....no hit
If i use one HAC.......close to 100% hit (can't tell if hit in every 4 frames and i used another assassin to hit with...thought maybe she might have the smallest amount of sprite...lol)
Dual claws setup
if i use HAC as primary and chaos secondary.......chaos will hit more than 70 percent of the time but HAC is not hitting as often as a single HAC setup.
If i use HAC as secondary and chaos as primary...same result as above.
Havent done enough tests to get an exact number and don't have time to do anything now either, but the test suggests that:
1. Chaos definitely will benefit from the ar on HAC regardless of equip order, regardless of how the hit checks for the claws are in ww.
2. with the assumption of both claws are checked every four frames, to explain why HAC is now hitting less, and chaos is hitting...and much much more, is that the ww ar is perhaps averaged.
I know this is not an accurate test. To design a better test for this I need to know if sp behaves the same as realms, a better knowledge on hit checks for ww, percent to hit on ar vs def etc etc etc.....but i just wanted to share what i found out because if chaos can actually benefit ar from a secondary claw....ias on fools might not be as important as most ppl would think and perhaps can open yourself up for fools with other mods.... unless u want both high ww ar and 50 percent ow to be applied to kicks, or applied ar on kicks-- the latter might need another test on.
wizAdept
07-02-2007, 08:53
...
That kinda goes contradictory to what my recent experimenting has shown me.
o.O
You sure you know what you are talking about?
I could always run a test on sp to really get to the bottom of this, actually sure I will, tomorrow I guess when I get back from class. From what Im seeing on realm from playing around with like 8 different claws to compare mods is leading me to be just about certain fools does not work from the offhand.
...
That kinda goes contradictory to what my recent experimenting has shown me.
o.O
You sure you know what you are talking about?
I could always run a test on sp to really get to the bottom of this, actually sure I will, tomorrow I guess when I get back from class. From what Im seeing on realm from playing around with like 8 different claws to compare mods is leading me to be just about certain fools does not work from the offhand.
I am pretty sure about the outcome...however, i might have build the high ar claw wrong and affected the chaos ww ar (or any factor in that matter). But the character display screen does show 5 ar and 84000 ar and ww ar repectively for chaos and high ar claw.
Modified Chaos (with - 100% req = low dex = no ar)
http://s59.photobucket.com/albums/g290/zejive/?action=view¤t=chaos.jpg
High Ar Claw (ignore the lifetap, was trying out various curses for a hit-reporter)
http://s59.photobucket.com/albums/g290/zejive/?action=view¤t=HAC.jpg
Character display screen (pumped some dex so that the ww ar is not in the negative value for chaos)
http://s59.photobucket.com/albums/g290/zejive/?action=view¤t=screen.jpg
I'm busy with my thesis writing and no longer have time to do any further testing. However, I would appreciate it if anyone can point out any flaw in my design so that others can design a better test or just simply throw my result into the trash can and move on...lol.
Wiz: Let us know if you experience anything different...i would really like to get to the bottom of this even though i won't be able to play for a while.
wizAdept
08-02-2007, 01:05
I did some testing for the past two hours and the results are:
Inconclusive.
wtfbbq.
Seriously over the course of 2 hours testing this my expression went from O.o to o.O without much progress otherwise.
More updates on my testing to come.. I'll explain what I mean in next post.
HappyAssassin
08-02-2007, 10:53
A fool's claw adds a straight +xxxx to AR, whereas your claw includes a % bonus as well. Try to run the test with only one type of AR bonus on the claw (even if it is +20000 or something, or +152135% and use AR charms).
Everything I've seen in my time dueling in 1.10+ has shown me that a Fools on the off hand does not add to AR. Maybe it's just a case of only seeing what I believe, but I've done a LOT of sin dueling with Fools on both sides, speed bugged etc. and it really does seem to hit less when fools isn't main hand.
Von Lazuli
08-02-2007, 11:04
Happy, you make me annoyed... Now I am not just looking for a Fool's Greater Talon with +3 LS, but a Fool's Greater Talon with +3 LS and 30IAS....
Anyway, I can suggest one improvement... Slower claws. This should reduce the number of hit-checks, and so hopefully you can figure out which claw is doing what.
Laz
HappyAssassin
08-02-2007, 11:09
Happy, you make me annoyed... Now I am not just looking for a Fool's Greater Talon with +3 LS, but a Fool's Greater Talon with +3 LS and 30IAS....
A kid on that other forum has a:
+2Sin
Fools
+3 LS
+2 Venom
+2 MB
30IAS
2Socket (UmUm)
Greater Talon
Worth noting: He doesn't have a WWsin, considers himself a collecter, and will never trade it.
Now THAT makes me annoyed.
Von Lazuli
08-02-2007, 11:56
Wow... that is as close to the perfect claw as I will ever see... In fact, it could only be better if it was +3 for the other two skills and Eth/repair...
Laz
P.S. Larzuk owes me... so far he has stuck one hole in all these:
Fool's Blade Talons of Quickness
+3 Cold Skills/ 20FCR Tiara (self-found)
Trickster's Blade Talons of Swiftness (nice LLD Trapper claw)
Fool's Greater Talons with +1 LS
Now... to try my luck with a new set of Fool's Greaters with +2 LS and a Fool's Runic Talons of the Bear... *shakes fist at Larzuk*
mephiztophelez
08-02-2007, 12:45
A kid on that other forum has a:
+2Sin
Fools
+3 LS
+2 Venom
+2 MB
30IAS
2Socket (UmUm)
Greater Talon
Worth noting: He doesn't have a WWsin, considers himself a collecter, and will never trade it.
Now THAT makes me annoyed.
i'm going to crai now.....
Von Lazuli
08-02-2007, 13:05
Just an update on my previous comment...
Larzuk gave the Fool's Greater Talon with +2 LS 1 socket. Now I am afraid to trust him with the Fool's Runic or the Bear...
Laz
Flayed One
08-02-2007, 14:40
when doing those tests make a char with 99 clvl,100 000 life and mana, one claw with +1 whirlwind,100% open wounds, no requirements and as low damage as possible and the other with +4000 AR, no requirements, some cold damage with long freezing time. Then you'd see which claw hit the monster - the one with open wounds, or the one with cold damage.
wizAdept
08-02-2007, 20:43
Well.. the problem with WW is that it does so many attack checks so quickly, 2 simultanious checks every 4 frames. Also to my understanding the 4th frame of the WW is a single attack with the primary weapon, so for the purpose of testing I did long ww passes to eliminate that. It's still really hard to tell exactly how many checks are made in each pass, and the automatic 5% chance to fail any AR roll and 5% chance to succeed any AR roll makes it very hard to tell when its the claws hitting due to AR, or the claws hitting due to luck of rolling above 95%, 1 in 20 attacks will hit regardless of AR, with so many attacks and no really concrete way of counting how many checks are made each WW pass, its very difficult to test.
Here is the testing method I used:
Dummy barb to hit with ww:
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/9463/screenshot015fq5.jpg
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/6254/screenshot016hr3.jpg
Assassin with various +WW claws:
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7991/screenshot006gw0.jpg
http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/2148/screenshot007zs9.jpg
http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/8440/screenshot008zx2.jpg
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2429/screenshot009zt5.jpg
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/479/screenshot010gv8.jpg
Barb has 4089 def
Asn has 77369 AR with fools modded claw (there is a limit to how much ar/level can give, so its socketed with 3x ar/level mod jewels as well)
31 AR on claw without ar/level.
2 of each type of claws, having 1-2 fire and light damage, so I can watch for the fire/light animation and tell which will hit.
Chance to Hit: 100 * AR / (AR + DR) * 2 * alvl / (alvl + dlvl)
AR = Attack Rating; DR = Defense Rating; alvl = Level of Attacker; dlvl = Level of Defender.
So.. That gives a theoretical 95% chance to hit with AR/level, 5% chance to hit without it.
Now the part that made me go o.O was the results..
I'll post up the video soon as I have it uploaded of how the test went.
wizAdept
08-02-2007, 23:43
Here is what I saw:
http://media.putfile.com/fools-claw-wwsin-test
From what I can gather from wwing over that barb for about 2 hours straight:
-The only way to get the full bonus of +ar on claws is to have one claw or to have both claws give +ar, this is not possible on realm because one claw has to be chaos.
-When using ar/level claw (ARC) and a regular claw without ar/level (RC), with the ARC equipped primary and the RC equipped secondary, it seems the offhand claw has influence on the primary claw's hit rate. Im not sure if it's "averaged" as was suggested by zejive but it's definitely not 95% hit as shown by using the ARC alone. It's closer to a 50% (that being an estimate) hit rate.
-Furthermore, when using ARC primary and RC secondary, you will see fire hit just about as often as light, this means the RC claw which should have a theoretical 5% hit chance if the claw's AR is not linked, is getting some bonus from the ARC in the primary slot.
-When the ARC claw is equipped secondary with RC primary, the hit rate appears very low, close to 5%, although at times it seems to be hitting a bit more, at ~20% (estimate), this may be due to getting a succession of 95%+ AR rolls for automatic hits, or there may be something Im missing to see and somehow the offhand claw does have some impact on the primary. My guess though is that the "hits" with RC primary are just 95+ rolls, its not consistent enough, it looks as though the hit rate stays 5%, hence offhand ar/level has no effect on either claw. this is questionable, more testing is required but I can not say for certain with my method as it is possible to constantly roll 95+ a few times in a row
-In all cases the hit rate seems fairly consistent between the two claws equipped, leading me to believe a single AR value is used for both claws.
So.. somehow the offhand has a negative effect on a primary ARC claw if it's AR is lower than the primary, even though switching around the claws leads me to believe that secondary ARC has non or minimal effect in increasing the AR of the primary RC.
Weird huh?
There were also times where I would not hit at all (wtf) with ARC primary and RC secondary. If the RC lowers the total hit rate to ~50%, its possible these were just long runs of rolling failed AR rolls, but still very weird and quite confusing to the testing.
If anyone has a different take on this test or can do a different test to have more concrete results, I would love to hear it.
Any input is appreciated.
That is really, really odd.
I know they buggered with the code for WW when 1.11 came out. Not sure why (I thought it was dandy in 1.10).
Is there any chance they use the AR from the primary claw, then alternated weapons (or picked on randomaly) and only let one hit per target (like 1.09)?
Also, how about testing with the southpaw effect?
Von Lazuli
13-02-2007, 08:37
Hang on... I think I am out of it...
Southpaw?
Laz
Usually the primary weapon is in the glove-slot. That's what happens when you pick up your corpse or do a weapon swap. The general principle (and more accurate, technically) is that the primary weapon is the one equipped first. If that happens over the boot-side, then strange things can happen with the IAS.
JRichard's attack speed document (linked in the updated attack speed sticky) has the full explanation.
wizAdept
01-04-2007, 02:43
I know they buggered with the code for WW when 1.11 came out. Not sure why (I thought it was dandy in 1.10).
Would you happen to know what the changes were?
Since d2pk (what I play now) is a 1.10 realm when I did my testing I tried it both under 1.10 and 1.11b installs of the game, as far as the fools claw test went, the results were identical. So if there is something else to know about differences between mechanics of ww in 1.10 and 1.11 I'd like to find out.
Well my questions simple, is there any reason -not- to put your fools claw main hand if thats what people seem to believe effects it? I've heard no arguments for having chaos main hand yet. Thanks
chaos got 35IAS.
so, if you find a nice fools claw that's missing IAS, it would be nice to be able to use chaos mainhand for fast trap laying speed and/or kickspeed.
mephiztophelez
06-04-2007, 02:38
chaos got 35IAS.
so, if you find a nice fools claw that's missing IAS, it would be nice to be able to use chaos mainhand for fast trap laying speed and/or kickspeed.
and give up on all the AR available from a fools claw? one of the things we learnt from all this testing was the need for the Fools claw to be on primary.
the only time a chaos should be on primary is when you need to pull out the 'ol Jade Talon.
and give up on all the AR available from a fools claw? one of the things we learnt from all this testing was the need for the Fools claw to be on primary.
the only time a chaos should be on primary is when you need to pull out the 'ol Jade Talon.
I know that. I was refering to this post:
Well my questions simple, is there any reason -not- to put your fools claw main hand if thats what people seem to believe effects it? I've heard no arguments for having chaos main hand yet. Thanks
He asked what would be possible arguments FOR chaos mainhand. I didnt' advice to use chaos primary, but only mentioned pros for chaos.
I have a fast fool's claw myself so it's np anyway and I play fools main :)
i think i just had a revelation about this, after watching the video of max's tests. at the very end of the video, where there were constant 5% and constant 95% rolls (or what it seemed to be), i think those results can be attributed to WW using different claws to determine the hit check speed.
remember that WW, when it has no target in range, switches between the two claws, using the two different claws' speeds to determine the hit check frequency:
The effect of weapon speed in dual-wielding Whirlwind is as follows. While a target is in range, one of the weapons' speed is constantly used to calculate the next hit-check frame. If there's no target in range, the game will alternate between weapon speeds to calculate the next hit-check frame. The best way to make sure you have maximum Whirlwind speed when dual-wielding is to use weapons that both reach the final breakpoint, like for instance a Lightsabre phase blade and a colossus blade with 40% IAS.
because they are alternating, depending on how far away from the target you were when you first start whirling, your first hit on the target would occur on a different claw, possibly changing which claw is the primary one when dealing with whirlwind, affecting whether or not the AR gets added to the whirl.
would anyone (probably max, since he has those claws set up already), do another test, where instead of starting from far away, started the whirls from right on top of the target, so that there was no variability in terms of which claw gets the first hit?
Smithenator
30-08-2007, 04:43
So your revelation was that ww might not only use a different claw's ias to determine its speed, but also switch which claw is primary according to the one it uses for ias?
So your revelation was that ww might not only use a different claw's ias to determine its speed, but also switch which claw is primary according to the one it uses for ias?yea. that seems to be the only realistic explanation for the weird 5% + 95% hit streaks right?
it definitely needs more testing though. i'll send max a PM.
Smithenator
30-08-2007, 04:54
I cant view the video he posted so Im kind of in the dark here, but if that were the case wouldn't he always get a 5% or a 95%? Im basing that off the assumption he always started his ww out of range of the barbarian.
I cant view the video he posted so Im kind of in the dark here, but if that were the case wouldn't he always get a 5% or a 95%? Im basing that off the assumption he always started his ww out of range of the barbarian.
yea. at the end of the video, there was this one period where he hit tons, and then wouldn't hit at all, with the same claws. all his whirls always started out of range like you said, and he had constant hits with 2 fools and fools + 0, and very few hits with 2 non-fools and 1 non-fools + 0.
Smithenator
30-08-2007, 05:14
Well if the reason for his 95 or 5 hits was because the primary was switching between fools and chaos, then wouldnt the answer to the question be that only primary ar is used?
That being said, unless the claws avg. the ar when a ww starts with target in range, wouldnt he always get a 95% hit or a 5% hit? Because starting his ww with the barb in range would designated the fools as primary and give him 95% cth, as a pose to the ~50% he was getting.
Am I missing something?
Well if the reason for his 95 or 5 hits was because the primary was switching between fools and chaos, then wouldnt the answer to the question be that only primary ar is used?
That being said, unless the claws avg. the ar when a ww starts with target in range, wouldnt he always get a 95% hit or a 5% hit? Because starting his ww with the barb in range would designated the fools as primary and give him 95% cth, as a pose to the ~50% he was getting.
Am I missing something?
try and watch the video >_<. its hard to explain whats happening with just words.
yea, starting the whirl in range would have always led to a 95%, but he didn't always start in range. most of the time, he did long sweeping whirls to maximize the amount of hit checks per whirl, which makes sense to do, which could be the reason behind the ~50% average hit rate.
as for only the primary being used, what i was trying to explain was that because of the ww mechanics, it may be possible that because WW alternates which claw it uses to determine the hit checks, it may switch which claw is primary during the whirl, and may cause the offhand claw in your inventory to become the primary during that hitting session.
Smithenator
30-08-2007, 05:22
Right, but what Im saying is that if the primary claw determines the entire ar, and the only choices are 95% cth, and 5% cth, and he got ~50% cth most of the time, where did the 50% come from?
Right, but what Im saying is that if the primary claw determines the entire ar, and the only choices are 95% cth, and 5% cth, and he got ~50% cth most of the time, where did the 50% come from?
the 50% was compounded over may whirls. it seemed to me like each individual whirl was somewhere around 95% or 5%, and when averaged together, got somewhere around 50%. its really hard to tell though, since we didn't make nearly enough samples to make any sort of hit rate conclusion.
p.s. http://media.putfile.com/fools-claw-ar-on-ww is the working link for the video
wizAdept
30-08-2007, 06:22
would anyone (probably max, since he has those claws set up already), do another test, where instead of starting from far away, started the whirls from right on top of the target, so that there was no variability in terms of which claw gets the first hit?Sure I'd be up for some more testing, possibly tomorrow. I'll try that out and see if there is any difference.
I'm really interested in more tests as well, and I will ask some friends know a lot of technical stuff, make they got an answer.
Up to now, I thought WW worked like that if you have 4 frame speed on every claw:
frame 4: mainhand hits.
frame 8: both hands hit with their own ar.
frame 12: both hand hit with their own ar.
ETC.
I was told that the first hitcheck was mainhand only, and that both hands hit simultaneously in the following swings.
Crazy to see the video now.
=[
I'm really interested in more tests as well, and I will ask some friends know a lot of technical stuff, make they got an answer.
Up to now, I thought WW worked like that if you have 4 frame speed on every claw:
frame 4: mainhand hits.
frame 8: both hands hit with their own ar.
frame 12: both hand hit with their own ar.
ETC.
I was told that the first hitcheck was mainhand only, and that both hands hit simultaneously in the following swings.
Crazy to see the video now.
=[
i wonder if you start whirling from a distance, whether the first hit check that makes contact strikes with 1 or 2 claws. :undecided:
I'm pretty sure that both claws hit at first contact if you start whirling from a distance.
thepandafactor
20-11-2007, 17:46
-The only way to get the full bonus of +ar on claws is to have one claw or to have both claws give +ar, this is not possible on realm because one claw has to be chaos.
Is this accurate? I can think of one way to get +ar on a chaos, which is to make it in a +3 ar superior base. Would this even matter?
Is this accurate? I can think of one way to get +ar on a chaos, which is to make it in a +3 ar superior base. Would this even matter?
i don't think anyone has actually continued to test the AR/ww relationship, so i'm not really sure about whether fools on the primary hand transfers to the secondary. but for sure, the effect from +AR on superior mod will be negligible; in fact, it will probably be rounded away when diablo calculates hit %.
wizAdept
20-11-2007, 18:34
Yeah I've been kinda lazy about this and other stuff started occupying my time. <.<
There are a few things Ive been meaning to test out besides this, maybe I'll get around to it later this week, been kept busy with school stuff. =\
Yeah I've been kinda lazy about this and other stuff started occupying my time. <.<
There are a few things Ive been meaning to test out besides this, maybe I'll get around to it later this week, been kept busy with school stuff. =\
yea its been the same with me. my friends have started playing on d2pk and i haven't found myself willing to make the effort. :cry:
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.