View Full Version : 12.5 attacks per sec ? 2 fpa ?
Read the guide on this char and dont understand how it works.
It's a sin who:
1) Uses Beast to change into werebear form.
2) Uses normal attack with single claw
3) The claw is one of the fast claws (-30) of quickness (+40ias ?) 3 sockets loaded with shaels.
What is it about this that gives 2fpa ?
Why cant another char use a PB with 6 shaels to get 2 fpa ?
Thanks
BIGeyedBUG
24-01-2007, 05:24
It's just the way the animation data is set up. Given what's possible in the game, an Assassin using a claw in bear form has a higher possible attack rate than any other character does, despite all the 6 shael pbs in Sanctuary.
There might actually be a more interesting technical reason for why it turned out that way rather than some other--I doubt it was intentional--but I'd be way out of my depth to speculate on it.
It's just the way the animation data is set up. Given what's possible in the game, an Assassin using a claw in bear form has a higher possible attack rate than any other character does, despite all the 6 shael pbs in Sanctuary.
There might actually be a more interesting technical reason for why it turned out that way rather than some other--I doubt it was intentional--but I'd be way out of my depth to speculate on it.
It's the way the IAS formulas are handled in wereform. Normally, all IAS values eventually have a cap beyond which additional IAS is useless. In wereform, WIAS (Weapon IAS) does not have a cap, and as a Wereforms can reach any speed possible, if they're given enough WIAS. You could make a Werebear wielding a Thunder Maul and if you loaded enough IAS into it you could get a 1-frame attack (of course, "enough IAS" would be entirely impossible to achieve in unmodded D2:LoD- I don't know the formula, but I'd imagine it would take hundreds of thousands of points of WIAS to max out the speed on some of the slower weapons).
The reason why Assassins get the fastest is because Assassins in Bearform wielding claws have the fastest base animation of any character in any class wielding any weapon (base animation = 7 frames per attack). It's a lot easier to get to 2 frames when you start at 7 than it is when you start at 11, or 17, or 25.
You could load up a Phase Blade with Shaels, but since the base animation speed for most classes wielding swords in wereform is somewhere between 9 and 11 frames, it would take a lot more IAS to reach the 2-frame breakpoint- basically, it would take more IAS than you could possibly get in unmodded LoD. How much, I don't know- maybe 200%, maybe 300%, maybe more. Just because it's not capped doesn't mean that it no longer suffers from diminishing returns.
BIGeyedBUG
24-01-2007, 06:40
Actually, I'll speculate just for the hell of it, and because the question is eating at me. Not that I think you were even asking for a deep reason, but hey...
I think it the wereform attacks are based somehow on how each classes Normal Attack is set up, and it just so happens that Assassins were designed to go faster using Normal Attack with claws than any other class using any other weapon. The Barb is a small exception, but it takes slightly less EIAS to reach max with the Assassin claw than with any Barb weapon.
And that's about as much as I can guess.
edit: big ol' crosspost.
edit2: I guess this falls in the category of things I know, but don't *know*. Thanks, SSoG.
edit3, this is getting fun: Not sure where I got the idea that Barbs get 7 frames either, so scratch that bit.
Slipknirvana
26-01-2007, 01:29
Where's this guide? I might want to try something like this.
What kind of character would you turn this into? CTC spammer?
What kind of CTCs work in bear form?
You use normal attack, so all ctc's work just fine.
Sad part is that a lot of cool ctc are on weapons.
scottrick49
26-01-2007, 19:12
There is a guide written by SSoG (very informative too) located on the amazon basin, in the druid forum.
You use normal attack, so all ctc's work just fine.
Sad part is that a lot of cool ctc are on weapons.
You can change your weapon after you cast bear mode.
^_^ little known fact.
You can change your weapon after you cast bear mode.
^_^ little known fact.
Sure... but how are you going to achieve 2fpa without the fast claw?
The charm about assassin in bearform, from what I have read, is to be able to apply very fast crushing blow and venom.
What kind of character would you turn this into? CTC spammer?
What kind of CTCs work in bear form?
Mostly I just use it as a Bosskiller. 95% CB + 12.5 attacks per second results in some VERY fast bosskills. Like, unbelievably fast.
As far as realistic PvM goes, you're better off shooting for the 3 or 4 frame attack. Chaos will get you a 4-framer, and you can hit a 3-framer with a good rare (say, a Shael'd Cruel/Of Quickness- ideally with other fancy mods). You'll kill monsters a lot quicker if you've got some more ED% on your weapon.
As for CtCs... all CtCs work in Bearform, it's just hard to get any of the better ones on fast Assassin weapons (which all have to be claws), outside of Chaos.
There is a guide written by SSoG (very informative too) located on the amazon basin, in the druid forum.
We aren't allowed to advertise other forums here. Besides, it's not on the Druid forums, anyway. It's an Assassin build. :wink3:
Either way, good luck getting your hands on one, outside of modded Single Player. You need a very specific claw to hit 2-frames (Artisan's or Jeweler's Greater/Runic Talons of Quickness). Out of all the feedback I've gotten on the build, I've only ever heard of one person who actually found one. All of the build design and testing was done in modded SP.
Funguspower
27-01-2007, 11:56
I saw a Jewelers Runic Talon of Quickness being sold on D2jsp recently for about 2-3k Forum gold... Which is 0.5x the price of a JMOD.
Kinda rediculous.
/fung
Josiphos
28-01-2007, 20:42
Were-(insert character class here) seem to be becoming much more popular these days.
I was thinking about a were-barb, but this were-sin fast attack has me interested. Some questions:
How about Shadow Killer (Shael)? Great chance to cast mods there.
Max Venom, claw mastery, Fade/BoS, shadow master? Max Weapon block and go with another claw? What skills?
I don't know that I would use chaos or fury claws...WAAAAYYY to expensive to repair. I'd spend all my time running trav to get gold to repair the claws so I could run trav...
(Yes I know about orts..)
Were-(insert character class here) seem to be becoming much more popular these days.
I was thinking about a were-barb, but this were-sin fast attack has me interested. Some questions:
How about Shadow Killer (Shael)? Great chance to cast mods there.
Max Venom, claw mastery, Fade/BoS, shadow master? Max Weapon block and go with another claw? What skills?
I don't know that I would use chaos or fury claws...WAAAAYYY to expensive to repair. I'd spend all my time running trav to get gold to repair the claws so I could run trav...
(Yes I know about orts..)
Too slow. Wereforms are all about getting the fastest base weapon animation possible, and then adding as much WIAS on top of that as you can get. Shadowkiller's don't have a very fast base weapon animation ([-10] WSM, but the fastest claws are [-30]), and it has absolutely NO WIAS (except for the Shael). Shadowkillers would work (with BoS, you could get them to 5 FPA), but there are much better choices out there.
Edit: The high repair costs in Chaos are because of the staffmods. If you make Chaos in a non-superior claw without any built-in +Skills, the repairs become *DRASTICALLY* cheaper.
Was thinking about this, could a 6x Shael PB on a sorceress or paladin work? (using elemental auras/enchant/dream)
BildBenny
31-01-2007, 18:55
You mean in order to get them to 2 frames per attack? No. I only know of two attacks that go as fast as 2fpa, and that's normal attack with an AssassinBear, and WW with dualwielding.
Was thinking about this, could a 6x Shael PB on a sorceress or paladin work? (using elemental auras/enchant/dream)
If you're asking whether a Werebear Sorc or Paladin wielding a 6-Shael PB would be a Hell-viable build, then yes. There are build guides for both builds out there somewhere (the Paladin one is called a Palabear or a Weretemplar, the Sorceress one is called a Bearsorc).
If you're asking whether a 6-Shael PB will be able to attack at two frames, then no, for all the reasons I already outlined in post #3.
Slipknirvana
31-01-2007, 22:37
I don't know I shopped and got the claw, all the "best" equiment listed in the guide. Inv full of charms, max res in hell, and no the Ubers don't die in 15 secs they kill you though. Diablo Clone was also a hassle it took a loooong time but he finally died.
I don't know I shopped and got the claw, all the "best" equiment listed in the guide. Inv full of charms, max res in hell, and no the Ubers don't die in 15 secs they kill you though. Diablo Clone was also a hassle it took a loooong time but he finally died.
The build wasn't built for Ubering or DCloning. She was built for general PvM play. Chaos Tristram is a very different animal entirely, and one really requires a dedicated Ubers build in order to have much success there.
I have to ask... did you have any Open Wounds on your character? You need some way to stop DClone and the Ubers' regeneration if you want to kill them in any reasonable amount of time.
batuchka
02-02-2007, 10:35
Hmm very interesting that u attempted Ubers with a 2fpa bearsin ^^ What %cb did u slap on her and wat was your total AR when fighting ubers? As for other non druid bears, a botb pb hits 4fpa on a palabear or any 60ias pb for that matter and i had tested a polarbear (palabear using doom zerker and nightwing with resist cold maxed) on modded SP and he's fun as hell :tongue: There's a PvP palabear guide by Zerounit stickied at the paladin forum :laugh:
Gimmershred
04-02-2007, 16:51
I have to ask... did you have any Open Wounds on your character? You need some way to stop DClone and the Ubers' regeneration if you want to kill them in any reasonable amount of time.
Your poisondamage from venom will prevent regeneration. If you don't hit with that bear every 0.4 seconds then that bear is useless anyways., since attack speed is his best thing.
Actually quite funny how i used this.
Diaclone spammed in my non-password game while i was playing with my goldfindbarb who doesn't have an attack skill. So i let my merc with guillaume's, botd and forti attack him but he couldn't finish him off because of the life regen.
It went on for quite a while, then i noticed a flawless emerald laying around and put it in some dagger and hit diaclone with it. After that my merc finished it in 30 seconds, because his regeneration stopped.
Palabear and Sorcbear using dualdream are very viable and are probably faster killers in pvm then any druid wolf or bear.
I even did ubers with my dualdreampalabear when the 1.11 patch was just released and i survived and was killing them slowly while a lot of people were die-ing around me. A palabear can get a good mix of physical/lightdamage while maintaining high speeds.
If you need a build for a sorc, i just build a very nice bearsorc 5frame attack, 4-45k damage, 90 all res, max block and with 4.5k life if i prebuff bo and bear a bit. I do 8 playerdiaruns with it with infimerc.
Check out this topic http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=368601 , although it's old and i would take back some of my choices i stated there (on the assa focusing on physical damage for example)
Either way, good luck getting your hands on one, outside of modded Single Player. You need a very specific claw to hit 2-frames (Artisan's or Jeweler's Greater/Runic Talons of Quickness). Out of all the feedback I've gotten on the build, I've only ever heard of one person who actually found one. All of the build design and testing was done in modded SP.
I have found it. Legitly in SP, no mods (IIRC shopped from Anya):
Artisan's Runic Talons of Quickness
One-Hand Damage: 24 to 44
Durability: 69 of 69
(Assassin Only)
Required Dexterity: 115
Required Strength: 115
Required Level: 60
Claw Class - Fastest Attack Speed
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 89
Fingerprint: 0x3c3ebae4
40% Increased Attack Speed
+1 to Blades of Ice (Assassin Only)
+1 to Wake of Inferno (Assassin Only)
Socketed (3: 0 used)
Slipknirvana
09-02-2007, 02:20
The build wasn't built for Ubering or DCloning. She was built for general PvM play. Chaos Tristram is a very different animal entirely, and one really requires a dedicated Ubers build in order to have much success there.
I have to ask... did you have any Open Wounds on your character? You need some way to stop DClone and the Ubers' regeneration if you want to kill them in any reasonable amount of time.
Yes I had alot of OW+Vemon to take away the regen. I'm just responding to what was explained in the guild about "Yes! even the ubers" after you stated everything died in less than 15 secs.
My comp just crashed after I did a whole bunch of numbers >.>
Anyway, the formula to figure out dclones health at 2 FPA is simple...but to make it short...you should have him at 480 hp after 6 seconds of fighting with an 85% chance to hit and 85% crushing blow as long as you open wound/poison him.
Im inclined to beleive that you didnt have enough AR (missed) or didnt have enough cb%, which would lead you to beleive that the build *cant* be good at ubers...when in fact it can be the fastest, you just need to make sure that your fullfilling the builds requirements.
if anyone need i have a perfect claw for weresin. Hits 3 fps with very nice damage.
Runic talon
395 ed
55 ias
and some other minor stats
(socked 40/15 ias for 3 fps)
imo this is better than the 2 fps claw cause it has such nice damage. so if anyone needs its for sale on europe non ladder :thumbsup:
Silent Shaddow
10-02-2007, 22:06
@ SSoG, Ias isnt capped but suffers from diminhing returns, infact if you have an infinate amount of IAS on a char then that char only gains 120 EIAS but you get marginally more EIAS from 1,000,000 IAS then from 1,000 IAS. 1000 Ias=107 EIAS, 1,000,000 IAS=119EIAS, 1,000,000,000,000 IAS = 119 EIAS.if you get to that point you should quite clearly get a faster base weapon
But the whole purpose of a 2 FPA wersin is indeed to have a 2 frames per attack, id prefer damaging with poison, lightning, ow, and crushing blow than have to revert to a 3 FPA.
But the whole purpose of a 2 FPA wersin is indeed to have a 2 frames per attack, id prefer damaging with poison, lightning, ow, and crushing blow than have to revert to a 3 FPA.
Do you have any idea how insanely impossible 2 FPA melee is? Not to mention how completely rediculous it would look like in game. Imagine your character now. Now imagine the animation it used took the first point of starting to attack, then all of a sudden ended the attack.
Eilo Rytyj
11-02-2007, 13:52
Do you have any idea how insanely impossible 2 FPA melee is? Not to mention how completely rediculous it would look like in game. Imagine your character now. Now imagine the animation it used took the first point of starting to attack, then all of a sudden ended the attack.
Yes, I have the single player hero-edited file that SSoG made. It's absolutely hilarious. And quite impossible by any normal human means. But a Bearsin is no mere human...
But the whole purpose of a 2 FPA wersin is indeed to have a 2 frames per attack, id prefer damaging with poison, lightning, ow, and crushing blow than have to revert to a 3 FPA.
A runic talon can spawn with:
Ethereal
300%ED
Fool's Mod
2x socket (With 40/15 and something else)
40IAS
Self Repair
20 to max/min damage.
Heaps of AR + Good physical damage > 2FPA.
bobofuzzlymunky
11-02-2007, 15:48
Do you have any idea how insanely impossible 2 FPA melee is? Not to mention how completely rediculous it would look like in game. Imagine your character now. Now imagine the animation it used took the first point of starting to attack, then all of a sudden ended the attack.
it is possible, very possible. lewl. the bear looks like its twitching, not attacking.
Yes, I have the single player hero-edited file that SSoG made. It's absolutely hilarious. And quite impossible by any normal human means. But a Bearsin is no mere human...
You should see the 1-frame attack. The entire attack "animation" is just a single frame played over and over again. In other words, you pull your claw back behind your head like you're going to swing, and stuff just falls over dead around you while you stand statue-still and grunt. Go Go Telekinetic Bear!
I couldnt get teh files >.> website wouldnt work, so its off to shopping for me, already got the 2 kewlest bearsin names on east =D
Were-Sin
Weresin
Going to grab Bear-Sin and Bearsin now :P
I couldnt get teh files >.> website wouldnt work, so its off to shopping for me, already got the 2 kewlest bearsin names on east =D
Were-Sin
Weresin
Going to grab Bear-Sin and Bearsin now :P
Files should be fixed if you want to try again.
I would also like a copy, can you PM me the link please !
Uncle_Mike
21-02-2007, 14:20
I would also like a copy, can you PM me the link please !
same here, pm please :wink3:
The rules page is down. Does anyone know the official board policy on posting SP character files? If the mods/admins aren't against it, I could just link the character file here, and anyone who wanted to see a 2-frame attack could do so without having to buy any duped Bers and search for hours for JToQs.
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