Jezzwashere [Archive] - Diablo: IncGamers Forums

Cattleya

17-01-2007, 00:45

I'm reposting this from the thread I closed (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=527729) since it looked like it could get lost in the other thread.

Also, just a few more clarifications on the purpose of this thread. If you think your items are affected, post it here, so everyone can get an idea of how much is potentially affected. Beyond that, discuss what you think we should do as a forum (if anything) in reaction to this.

I'll be reposting relevant posts by other people here as I get a chance. If you are impatient, you can repost it yourself, but hopefully I'll get it done shortly. :smiley:

First, here is the story:

We are going to start in this thread, where Jezzwashere talked about the old stash:
http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=522952
Pay very close attention to my post in that thread. It's important. :grin:

Next, we have this post (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?p=5102137&highlight=enigma#post5102137) which resulted in a PM and a quick investigation. I've gone back through the PMs, and either intentionally or not, Jezzwashere led us to believe that the entire Enigma came from that stash. We couldn't find any problems about that Engima from the time, the warning about trading/giving away items had already been given (remember that important post I made?) and so the matter was dropped.

We then found out that only the runes had been recovered. This was dodgy at best, since in my opinion, it's rerolling a runeword. However, the SPF doesn't really have any set policy on recovering backups after losing or deleting items, so no action was taken, and we continued to look into the matter. I did make a public post about what had happened, though. You can find it as the last post here:

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=523710

Then, some with some more help from our crack research team of vigilant SPFers, we discovered this:

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?p=3674123

So now we know what happened to the original Enigma, but that was a year ago, so we tried to contact B_T to find out if he still had the Enigma, but he's not active, so we still haven't heard. We were originally waiting to see what was going on, but the number of concerned PMs and post reports hit critical mass yesterday, and so I stepped up the Investigation (http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5158189&postcount=6).

His response about the Enigma being loaned out was that he forgot, and he presumed B_T had deleted the Enigma since he had a new laptop so Jezz presumed he started fresh. I don't think I would ever presume that someone deleted my loaned out Enigma. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, why all of this really long explanation? Well, this is certainly not clear cut. We don't know for sure if the runes are actually duped, we just know that Jezz was grossly negligent in finding out if the runes in the recovered stash were already in play elsewhere, despite a certain mod posting a specific warning about checking into that before using items from the recovered stash. (Thus the ban. Well that and bypassing the word filter.)

Because of this uncertainty, and some of the input in other threads about how taint is handled, we are opening this one up to the forum to decide the best way to handle it. Hrus and it will of course step in if things go way wrong with the discussion, and will get the last word on decisions, but we don't want this to become two people deciding what is best for the forum's trade and MP pool.

Psychic Watch

17-01-2007, 00:46

This is exactly why there either needs to be a regular "ladder reset" of the trading pool, or else a mulligan/"free pass"/"statute of limitations" rule for contamination victims.

Otherwise there's no end to it.

Cattleya

17-01-2007, 00:54

Well the way i see it is that this spans to far back to trace every trade he and everyone else was evolved in. I say that if we can check and see that he made no major trades that would be considered godly (deaths web, 87s in general, HRs) Then just let it go. I see this affecting over half the trade pool as its been so long the web thats spawned must be huge. Just my 2 cents... And nice job mods!

@Dudzy: I didn't include your other posts since they got resolved in the other thread.

As per my last commentary on taint (http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=4934824&postcount=6).

Let it be.

Edit: I don't support a name and shame sticky. Soon we can delete the forum and have a page of stickies! :wink3:

@Dudzy - let it be = leave it alone in case you misunderstood.

Yes, yes, no more stickies. :laugh: (Plus a thread of shame stickied up is just depressing and the wrong message for newcomers. I'm always happy to answer questions by PM if someone comes back from a break and is concerned they may have traded with someone who is banned.)

First off, regardless of your actions or different 'attitudes', I'm sorry to see you go Jezz. Hope you can still find fun in the game.

Next, my interaction is due to an MP game a few weeks back.

My game is down. Many thanks to Jezzwashere and Naab for rushing me past Act 3, Naab and Sint for the rush past Diablo and Act 5, and Sint, Naab and Chasmyr for the Baal runs afterwards.

Good times.

This relates to the LS trapper I had. Some of you may have met her in the Moor. There were also a few items found with that character that I've been able to track down, and I'm fairly sure I've got a complete list of it. So that's an assassin, some s/u's and a 4os eth voulge from there. Then the voulge had Insight made in it and passed to a necromancer. So he's 'tainted' as well.

To my mind, this is on a level with hacking items. No matter how much time had passed in between, it's still rerolling a runeword, it's still duping the runes needed to make it.

That second Enigma, the one he made on the 29th, should never have existed. So any item associated with it is doubtful as well.

I don't know how extensive this goes however, how many people MP'd with his hammerdin or traded items found with it.

I think people (mods included) might have trusted him because his join date was way back in 2003. That is a reasonable assumption, but I seen his trade thread, then read Gabriel's post and I never went back.

I remember when 6dollarburger got banned for hacked items, I luckily had his items already quarantined because he was RWM/RRM and I was Vanilla. IIRC, he was also coming back to the SPF after a prolonged absence.

Anyways, we traded three times, and I traded away some good stuff to him, and it was painful, but I had to delete his items, and couldn't recover my own. That is the risk I accept when I trade.

I'm not sure what my point is. I guess I'm just sharing random thoughts on the subject. :tongue:

Dudzy

17-01-2007, 00:56

From what i can tell this is before he made the new engmia so it should be a good date to go by. If you don't know this already lol...

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?p=5113385#post5113385

Also found this, not sure if it would mean he tainted the giveaway stash or not...

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=517251&page=7

Randall

17-01-2007, 07:59

so we tried to contact B_T to find out if he still had the Enigma, but he's not active, so we still haven't heard.

His last post here is from this year.

And he might have placed another e-mail address on "another D2 forum". I can only see his instant messenger email addresses here and those are different.

I could PM that to you, so you can check. (he is inactive on that forum as well, just like here)

Randall

@silospen: Ok, this bit of useless info can be ignored :tongue: :grin:

Jingizu

17-01-2007, 08:00

Because of this uncertainty, and some of the input in other threads about how taint is handled, we are opening this one up to the forum to decide the best way to handle it. Hrus and it will of course step in if things go way wrong with the discussion, and will get the last word on decisions, but we don't want this to become two people deciding what is best for the forum's trade and MP pool.

I am not sure if I understand it well - you want to know our opinion on Jezzwashere or are you looking for some input about "tainted trading pool"...?

As for Jezzwashere, this is how I understand the situation:

1. He recovered his Enigma. Bad thing he wasn't able to clear up its status. (Well, mods gave him advice, he should wait with using it)

*it's still OK, maybe legit, maybe he is clear*

2. SHORTLY after restart he FOUND another JAH. Well, it's quite unexpected... He should await some suspicious reactions...

3. He "didn't know what to do with it". Something like "Oh my god, another Jah, I could make Enigma... oh dear, I have already one, hmm, what to do, any other runewords...? Unfortunatelly, it seemed that he wants to sell it (at this time I started to mistrust him)

4. He wrote weird posts like "ISO Tals amu and armor" and DIDN'T have something to sell. He said he has Kiras guardian and trap skiller and "few" PGems. What to hell is this? Someone who is running Baal with Enigmadin should have some wealth. Of course he could have found his Jah in the very first run, but its "quite" unlikely...

Well, I do not believe him, but it's my own attitude. If you are afraid of tainted trading pool from him, there are many possible ways how to taint it and I think it is tainted anyway in the "purist way" for a long time and there is no power how to avoid that fact (I suppose you are not planning to stop Rune trading, PGems trading, crafts trading, skillers trading etc. Anyone could dupe tons of Pamethysts, Rals and make a gosu caster amutels and gain huge wealth, or reroll Baal GS's as long as possible to get +45 life skillers...).

That means I don't think you should make some special action concerning Jezz and trading pool :smiley:

silospen

17-01-2007, 08:25

His last post here is from this year.

And he might have placed another e-mail address on "another D2 forum". I can only see his instant messenger email addresses here and those are different.

I could PM that to you, so you can check. (he is inactive on that forum as well, just like here)

Randall

We've already tried, Randall :)

nilynrae

17-01-2007, 09:23

I'm guessing its more the tainted trade pool than anything else, since Jezz is already banned...

It's a tricky one and much as it pains me to either say it or do it, I'd be tempted to say that I'd consider restarting fresh (and moving my old characters/mules elsewhere so I don't cross contaminate the new stuff).

I've only traded a couple of times but I think it's with people who have either traded or played with Jezz (no offense to those people intended, they were great traders). I'm new to the whole thing and already possibly "tainted"... so it's going to hit pretty much everyone who's traded, I think. :undecided:

With that said, even if I restarted there's no guarantees (is there ever really?) that I'd stay untainted if trading... it's a toughie.

Randall

17-01-2007, 09:40

@nilynrae:

If you continue trading, a restart is hardly necessary. Just take the proper action according to the extent/amount of (visual) "taint" you got, check up with the mods to be sure. (There is no way to keep any trade pool 100% legit)

As a alternative, put the stuff you have aside (backup, no need for deletion) and go 100% Self Found.
That does not necessarily mean all your characters are untwinked, but the first one at least must start untwinked.

EDIT:
there is a "middle of the road" way as well, join the SPF SC / HC ladders (are they still active?).
They only allow trading / MP with other ladder characters, so risk is more limited.

EDIT2:
Check our tournament sticky thread to find the ladder threads, they are in there somewhere.

Randall

Hrus

17-01-2007, 11:16

Anyhow, why all of this really long explanation? Well, this is certainly not clear cut. We don't know for sure if the runes are actually duped, we just know that Jezz was grossly negligent in finding out if the runes in the recovered stash were already in play elsewhere, despite a certain mod posting a specific warning about checking into that before using items from the recovered stash. (Thus the ban. Well that and bypassing the word filter.)

Because of this uncertainty, and some of the input in other threads about how taint is handled, we are opening this one up to the forum to decide the best way to handle it. Hrus and it will of course step in if things go way wrong with the discussion, and will get the last word on decisions, but we don't want this to become two people deciding what is best for the forum's trade and MP pool.

This is the main point of the thread. Because situation is non-standard (the runes are probably duped, but the Enigma on B_T's side is probably no longer in use); we (mods) don't want to dictate what should be done to clear the "taint situation". We want to know the opinion of other forumites first. For example are "full restarts" needed if some people just MPed with Jezz for some time?

Jingizu

17-01-2007, 11:30

For example are "full restarts" needed if some people just MPed with Jezz for some time?

I don't think so.

The armor is *** (insert duped, cheated, what you want), but I don't think that people that MPed with him had some obvious advantage from it and thus shouldn't be punished. That's my "human feeling".

Of course if someone's terrified with possible taint of surely-a-little-bit-tainted-trade-pool-anyway, he will call for restart... But its useless IMHO...

The Cow King

17-01-2007, 11:30

Well I haven't had the time yet to check my own MP situation yet but my take on that is that I don't really think a full restart is that fair. I mean most of the MP games are hell baal runs and those are really just exp. Hardly ever have I seen anyone pick anything up. A few flawless gems and that sorta stuff is hardly enough to warrant a restart?

I would, however, completely agree on all "higher" finds to be deleted. If anyone got.. say a useful skiller charm while MP'ing with Jezz then it might be nescessary to delete the item since it has real trade potential. Of course how to regulate this is hard and so on. Anyway I'll agree with any decision that comes through at the end - even if it means a full restart.

This might be a bad idea also (I mean really bad), but I'm gonna throw it anyway. Would it be a good (bad) idea to develop a list of persons who have traded or MP'd with Jezz so everyone could check if they have in turn traded or MP'd with those persons? I do realize this might have a huge negative impact on the trust rating for those ppl so I think it might not be that fair... sort of like the "ban" sticky that was suggested earlier.

Naab

17-01-2007, 11:32

Originally Posted by SiTro View Post
My game is down. Many thanks to Jezzwashere and Naab for rushing me past Act 3, Naab and Sint for the rush past Diablo and Act 5, and Sint, Naab and Chasmyr for the Baal runs afterwards.

Good times.

I can say that when i entered that game jezzwashere had rushed sitro's assasin throughr act 3,so i didnt get any experience or items.After that we traded (stupid move i know, but at that time i really thought he was legit) mavinas helm and armor and i got in return some pgems which now are deleted .Also i havent touched that char after that mp game so i think i can safely use the atma backups to remove any taint,which im gonna do rite now.

pharaoh

17-01-2007, 12:00

What is the policy on having played with someone who gets banned? I played with Jezz several times, more often than not with me hosting (as he could only host via Hamachi, I preferred the less-laggy non-Hamachi play). In games where I didn't host (whether Jezz was the host, or a third party) I didn't pick up any valuable items (I generally grab potions, gold, and gems in MP games, but only grab sets/uniques/medium+ runes in games I host, since my playing etiquette gives the host dibs on drops). I have no means of reliably tracking the gems/amount of gold picked up while MPing, and I'm certainly not willing to delete everything and start over. Where does this leave me?

Cattleya

17-01-2007, 12:32

One factor that may or may not be worth considering for MP is if the Enigma was actually present in the game. It might be nice to mention among other relevant information for people who MPed with him.

I'm not saying if it should or should not matter. (I'm trying to stay out of the debate for now.) I'm just encouraging everyone to share as much info as possible to help the discussion along. :smiley:

SiTro

17-01-2007, 12:38

I can say that when i entered that game jezzwashere had rushed sitro's assasin throughr act 3,so i didnt get any experience or items.After that we traded (stupid move i know, but at that time i really thought he was legit) mavinas helm and armor and i got in return some pgems which now are deleted .Also i havent touched that char after that mp game so i think i can safely use the atma backups to remove any taint,which im gonna do rite now.

I can (obviously :grin:) act as a witness there. Started talking about ISO's and such just after Naab entered, the trade happened and we all went to Act 1 to look at the shiny zon (had just reached hell apparently).

Similarly, I think all the items from that game have been isolated by me, and I also haven't played the character much since that game. So I think I should also be able to roll back the character to before that day, and revisit the jungles of Kurast.

The Insight I mentioned in my previous post was the only case of this taint spreading to another character. However the necromancer has gained about 10 or so levels since equipping the stick, then passing it on to the merc. Given that he's only ~level 37 and at the start of Act 5 normal, I might delete the character and remake him rather than cross fingers and hope I can find a pre-taint backup.

Gives me the chance to mess around with an idea that's caught my interest recently anyway.

Thyiad

17-01-2007, 13:21

If anyone does need a rush - and IF you can catch me - I will be happy to give you a rush. I have RWM/RRM and Vanilla chars.

pharaoh

18-01-2007, 07:25

One factor that may or may not be worth considering for MP is if the Enigma was actually present in the game. It might be nice to mention among other relevant information for people who MPed with him.I don't believe so. At least, if it was, I doubt it could have impacted anything, as I don't recall his characters being clvl 65+ at the time of MP games, and as such, they couldn't have equipped it in the first place.

I'm not saying if it should or should not matter. (I'm trying to stay out of the debate for now.) I'm just encouraging everyone to share as much info as possible to help the discussion along. :smiley:Meh. I don't believe it was in play, as I already explained, but even if it were, I can't say I'd agree with any who'd say I'm tainted. The main benefits are the Teleport (a convenience) and the MF (moot, given my lack of grabbing items). Will it help over the long term? Of course, especially with certain builds (summoners spring first to mind). Will it grossly affect things in the short term, outside of duels? Not in my opinion.

sirpoopsalot

18-01-2007, 07:44

Disclaimer: I didn't read much of this thread, or many of the links that were posted - to be honest, the recent frequency of these 'incidents' has caused me to loose interest. Due to my uninformed nature, I'm not going to point the finger on this one. However...

I do feel these types of incidents have become all too frequent lately, and the 'shades of grey' areas are spreading. As a result I've decided to restrict my trading to a very select list of forumites (there are about ~10 that I feel 'certain' are trustworthy traders) and I intend to lump all others into 'untrustworthy' - sorry in advance if that means we won't do business. I don't MP, so that shouldn't be a problem. Nevertheless, it's time I get to the real point of this post...

If anyone is affected by this, and feels the need to delete items, I'd be glad to compensate you with some of my spare items for free. I don't have much for runes or very, truly, rare, upper-top-end items, but I have multiple of most everything else. Please PM me with any requests (I probably won't read this thread much :rolleyes:), and I'll see what I can do.

All of the items I have to offer are 1.11b RRM/RWM.

Hulkamania

18-01-2007, 08:50

just wondering...what are side effects to the actual game files and items, if you trade with a "tainted" person?

i would think the distaste would be more accurately placed on the fact that somebody would trade "dishonest" items, but then again, that is assuming that there are no actual game side effects.

can it cause errors or something?

Thyiad

18-01-2007, 09:01

It is ethos, Hulamania. We pride ourselves on being able to cheat quite easily (duped runes, anyone?) but preferring to play the game properly. Bnet seems to accept dupes as par for the course "yeah, I'll just trade Angelics for a Ber and Infinity gogogogogo". We don't. The taint issue is a tricky matter of ethics and with a wide variety of views on the matter (http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=4934824&postcount=6). That thread in itself should be enough to make your head spin.

I have no idea if dupes/hacked items cause errors in game. I am aware they cause people who have done nothing wrong except misplace trust, a lot of inconvenience.

Hulkamania

18-01-2007, 09:03

Ugla

18-01-2007, 09:08

Hello all,
I read through the links Cat posted here.

Beside obvious rerolling of runeword, Cat's warning in the very first thread was clear and obvious, and Jezz totally ignored it. That Enigma is a duped item without doubt, and appropriate meassures must be taken.

What I want to say is "NO" to any old stashes recovering. Human memory is too short to ensure, that no flaws are made, even unintentionally. If someone quits the game, and then wants to "restart", he should really restart - the way this term is mostly used here, i.e. new characters, new stashes.

Also one must be very careful while using various backup files to really use them correctly, which currently might be very important :wink3:

Ugla

The Cow King

18-01-2007, 09:15

The "taint" doesn't do anything to file data itself, the reason why it's bad is that if you use duped Enigma then all the items you find while using it are sort of "credited" to the Enigma. Using dupes gives you obvious advantage and thus all items aquired with "tainted" means are therefore... tainted :laugh:

Good explanation I know :rolleyes:

nepeta

18-01-2007, 09:41

@Ugla: Your over-zealous puritanism won't stand a chance against my memory! :p

Seriously, as long as people are serious about quitting/restarting... That's the entire charm of SP. Not to find everything expired upon return from absence. Jezz was clearly an abberation, and a clumsy one at that. No need to go down on a community entire upon encountering a little something every once in a while.

Saint Anger

18-01-2007, 09:42

Trading and MP'ing are based on conventions, of which the two most important would be honesty and trust, both of which are linked to respect. Unfortunately honesty can't be enforced (only dishonesty can be punished when it's found out and damage control done when it's already way too late), making trust easily abusable. I don't MP and I rarely trade, and I'm afraid I must admit I'm not really enclined to start doing so after reading what happened. So, I perfectly understand the reservation most of the established members here would have against "newcomers" like me.

If this person was negligent enough to reroll a runeword, thus making a 'duped' runeword; there is nothing to say that this person wasn't "negligent" in other matters as well...

No matter how much I advocate a hard approach, as it would be the most "guaranteed" way to clean up this mess and to prevent the taint from spreading besides everyone in the SPF playing self-found; I have my doubts if it would actually be all that effective...
All it takes is a single pgem for the taint to continue, and the worst part about it is that no-one would even know... Makes you wonder if it hasn't happened in the past already. A few people in the SPF (I believe one of them was Shagsbeard) have already commented about the slow but inevitable tainting of the trade/mp-pool, and I think they have a point...

I for one, wouldn't like to come into contact with tainted items, but the chances of becoming tainted are ever so great the more you trade/mp. In Jezz' example a great many of people would be tainted; not only the people who Jezz traded or MP'ed with directly, but also the people who traded/MP'ed with those people and so-on... A bit unsettling, really. One can try to stop the taint from spreading by doing a full restart, but from the looks of it many people here would be facing restarts and even then there's no actual guarantee that the taint has been completely and utterly eliminated :/.

To summarize, since this post has already become way longer than I ever intended it to:
I think, besides playing completely self-found and not trading/MP'ing; restarts would be one of the most guaranteed ways to stop the taint from spreading. However, if so many people are facing possible restarts since we're also talking about second- and further degrees of taint; and even then there's no real way of guaranteeing the taint has actually been completely eliminated, since there will always be a sliver of doubt left: it takes only a single tainted item to be overlooked in order for the taint to spread, and it may very well already have happened in the past... Some people believe the trading/MP pool to be already tainted beyond repair, and I'm one of them (a further reason is that we can only do damage control if we find out about it, and there might and probably have been cases where people got away with it).

St. Anger

P.S. Apologies for the slightly longer-than-expected post.

Hulkamania

18-01-2007, 10:05

Dudzy

18-01-2007, 10:16

Hulkamania

18-01-2007, 10:19

i see. it is purely an ethical problem.

i was all worried here, that i had MP'd with a bunch of folks in the last week...thought that my items would come up as "dirty" or something, when run through atma.

*breathes sigh of relief*
cheating at a game you play by yourself is a bit self defeating, imo.

Randall

18-01-2007, 10:26

not to beat a dead horse..but what could possibly go wrong if you played a multiplayer game with a tainted character?

Physically, nothing. The game won't crash, the items will not corrupt anything.

But connecting yourself (knowingly) to such cheats is (almost) the same cheating yourself. And most of us don't want that.

Randall

Hulkamania

18-01-2007, 10:31

Physically, nothing. The game won't crash, the items will not corrupt anything.

But connecting yourself (knowingly) to such cheats is (almost) the same cheating yourself. And most of us don't want that.

Randall

duh. :jig:
:) honestly, half the fun of D2 multiplayer is competition ("Whoa, did you see how fast i whooped that gorebelly, even though my weapons suck?!").
somebody that would edit a character (with the exception of not wanting to wait 30 levels to see if a build was to their liking) has larger issues, im sure. even in the exception i provided above, the character should be deleted after a decision was made.

The Cow King

18-01-2007, 12:17

St. Anger is probably right (like many other people) that the trade pool is, to certain degree of certainty, already tainted. But IMO it all comes down to the level of taint. Only those who have had completely direct contact to the duped / haxored items for personal use or "trade use" should take immediate action. I mean the chain should be cut off at some point, and some taint is less "serious" (as bad as that sounds :lipsrsealed:) than others.

I, for one, would not give up on trading. I think it's a fun mini-game of it's own and fun way to spend your time among d2 even if you don't feel like playing it at that time. Also not everyone simply has the time or will to MF enough to start playing their "dream" builds or whatever nice builds that interest them... motivate them to play the game in the first place.

If you get stuck with one sorc who is ALWAYS just looking for the next item for your upcoming build (that will be never started since you lack the items) the game fun dies very fast. Been there, done that :wink3: :sad2:

Of course some advocate untwinked, but there are many people who just don't like it (including me). Perhaps my opinion will chance at some point but I really don't like playing untwinked. That way I always end up playing another fishy build or a build I don't have any fun with because it's so utterly terrible and dies every other second or needs to return to town to buy pots after every minute.

Hulkamania

18-01-2007, 12:50

it sucks that there is really no way to detect that sort of crap, though.
ugh.

i have all sorts of stuff that i am sure i will never use, and now im paranoid about trading it away, because i dont want some downloaded pack of equipment.

Randall

18-01-2007, 13:08

because i dont want some downloaded pack of equipment.

Actually, some (more known) downloadable packs can be detected, Flavie has a build in dupe list and checks every Fingerprint you want to put into a report with this known dupe list.

But there are other ways of hacking which are difficult (or not) detectable at all.
EDIT: not to mention that runes (and gems) don't have a fingerprint, so can not be checked by a fingerprint list

Randall

Hulkamania

18-01-2007, 13:16

EDIT: not to mention that runes (and gems) don't have a fingerprint, so can not be checked by a fingerprint list

Randall

surely, it wouldnt be hard to implement a fingerprinting system onto runes/gems, for trading purposes...hmmmmm

*goes to work on a new project, seeing if this is possible*

Randall

18-01-2007, 13:26

surely, it wouldnt be hard to implement a fingerprinting system onto runes/gems, for trading purposes...hmmmmm

*goes to work on a new project, seeing if this is possible*

Don't bother, it will not help anyway.

Randall

somethingsin

18-01-2007, 13:36

I doubt it's even possible, as changing the item will result in d2 not knowing what to do with it....

we could try making a spf patch for d2 giving gems and runes fingerprints though.....
(ok, maybe not)

Grisu

18-01-2007, 13:45

Don't bother, it will not help anyway.

Randall
I think so, too. because if you dupe one rune and then cube them, they would probably get a new fingerprint...

I decided not to trade or MP, because it causes far too much problems. I already went 7 years self-found and did now a restart, so why not go self-found again?

But as it was already pointed out: you should do a cut-off somwhere with restarts, or you will end up doing restarts because a friend of you played 5 min with a friend of his, who got an angelic ring from a friend that played with another friend who got a PGem from...you know what I mean:wink3:

Hulkamania

18-01-2007, 13:57

Don't bother, it will not help anyway.

Randall

im thinking a filterpatch on tpc/ip that only allow players with a fingerprint on all items in....obviously, the old timer purists in here would be supplied some way to attach fingerprints to their BoTD runes, and such.....it doesnt look as difficult as it sounds, and it would absolutely secure the tradepool. it also encourages new members to become more entrenched in the community here.

forgive me if i am rocking the boat, but if i could work this out (i probably can), would any of you be interested?

Randall

18-01-2007, 14:14

@Hulkamania:

The rune item does not have a fingerprint, do you want to filter out everybody with a rune or gem ?

EDIT:
in any case, even runes or items with fingerprints are not 100% secure.
A drop mod will work with your new patch as well, generating new illegal but 100% real looking items.

Cattleya

18-01-2007, 14:28

im thinking a filterpatch on tpc/ip that only allow players with a fingerprint on all items in....obviously, the old timer purists in here would be supplied some way to attach fingerprints to their BoTD runes, and such.....it doesnt look as difficult as it sounds, and it would absolutely secure the tradepool. it also encourages new members to become more entrenched in the community here.

forgive me if i am rocking the boat, but if i could work this out (i probably can), would any of you be interested?
I don't know the techinical aspects involved, but it strikes me as a lot of work to do in the first place, a lot of work to get community and admin acceptance (if you even can) and people will still be able to hack runes, they just have to be slightly smarter.

Fingerprints are certainly nice, and they help people track the history of items that have been traded. However, it doesn't solve all problems.

chillnkill

18-01-2007, 22:11

Been watching this little cluster **** unfold and while no one here knows me I thought I would interject for a second.

This whole issue, while certainly a pain in the butt for some, is quite a wonderful experience for many involved. What I mean by that is, most here are rather young(to me at least) and for those who may someday be invovled in managing a business or organizing a large group this is great stuff....oh how it hurts when your own policies come back to haunt you..LOL!

The lesson here is that you can never set a policy without first looking at would will happen if you ever have to scale it out. In other words, you better be careful or else everyone may end up violating the policy. Thats exactly whats happened here. No one forced anyone to adhere to or actively promote a rigid policy regarding duping, hacking, taint, etc. Yet, over time defacto policies got created. Now, because of 1 guy, just about anyone who has MP'd or traded within the timeframe being discussed is tainted according to this communities own hardcore standards. A policy that was supposed to protect the members has come back to bite them. Ouch!

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Precident is being created. Is someone who is tainted required to restart? Or, does that only apply to new or unknown members? Or, as one member proposed, should the policy only be implemented if it effects just a few but not if it effects many? Will the mods treat those who are now tainted the same way they treated the taintor? Or will they decided that the rules are too tough and change them so as to not effect too many members? Perhaps a "do your best to clean your stash" will be the answer?

One things for sure, because of this, a lot of guys here who pride themselves in having a "clean' stash no longer can make that claim. I will even be so bold as to say that if you MP or trade you are tainted whether you want to accept that or not. But, it is what it is regardless.

All that said, I feel bad for those who are caught up in this, but I do honestly believe it's a great learning experience. And not only that, but it sure is fun seeing other people deal with this crap instead of me..LOL!

aarrgus

18-01-2007, 22:43

Just have everyone "tainted" donate runes based on their level of "taint". Get them to donate enough to create an Enigma, then sell it to Charsi thereby destroying it. :laugh:

....

OK, I'll go back to lurking now.

DarkChaos

18-01-2007, 22:45

About the fingerprint on runes and gems, I wouldn't bother. Realistically, it can't be done.

zatlaren

18-01-2007, 23:38

Dudzy

18-01-2007, 23:46

It is so easy to hack and create high level runes in the game that would look real that a fingerprint wouldn't solve the problem anyway. They would look legit because they were created in game anyway.

Yea, and i think if you cubed runes it would change the fp anyways so its still impossibles.

Cattleya

18-01-2007, 23:54

It seems that only a couple of people who were affected by this have posted. I looked through the trade forum, and couldn't find anyone there that wasn't already represented, but I know that more people MPed with Jezz than have posted. What I would like to know is how you were affected and what you think would be the best way to handle your situation.

pharaoh

19-01-2007, 03:57

not to beat a dead horse..but what could possibly go wrong if you played a multiplayer game with a tainted character?

am i just stupid for asking this? ive searched all over the forum, but havent seen much regarding this subject.
the way it is talked about here, is that "taint" (not really sure what this means, honestly) can transfer from one character to the next, by virtue of being connected to a tainted character.
this is why i asked about the effects.As I understand it, it's more than the issue Dudzy describes. When joining a game hosted by someone else, that person could potentially be using cheats a little more serious than duped/hacked items. For example, they could be using a dropmod to enhance item drops. This is another reason I restrict myself to grabbing 'chaff' when joining games. When I'm hosting, on the other hand, I know I'm running a legitimate version, so I feel free to grab whatever I want.

Yes, there is the issue that a player joining a legit-hosted game can be packed with cheatie gear that lets them kill faster, and this can have an impact on experience, but it's not really a concern for me for three reasons. First, I rarely if ever participate in MP games whose sole purpose is to kill monster hordes for exp. If I MP, it's to quest, or help other quest, relegating exp runs to solo games. Thus, any exp difference will be minimal. Second, while gaining items through drops cannot be rationalized by the 'if you played a bit more, it would drop' argument (as it might never drop in your playing lifetime), the exp thing is a lot easier to accept, especially when one is an innocent party. Third, I don't accept being rushed; the closest I come is letting someone give me the odd waypoint. This again minimizes the exp issue, and I think forcing a character deletion because they innocently got a bit of 'unfair' exp is much less fair than allowing the character to remain.

Specific to my situation, there's my belief that the bad items likely weren't even in play. Thus, we have something that probably didn't affect me at all, and if it did, its effect would be so minimal as to make any punitive action unfair.

In more general cases, yes, there is the definite possibility someone might benefit from repeated exp runs while partnered with a character using godly cheat items, and if the benefit to the character is significant, a deletion or rollback might be in order.

Note all of the above only refers to one player benefiting unknowingly; if you MP with someone who you know is cheating, and thereby benefit, it's essentially the same as directly cheating to acquire those benefits.

surely, it wouldnt be hard to implement a fingerprinting system onto runes/gems, for trading purposes...hmmmmm

*goes to work on a new project, seeing if this is possible*This would not really help, as a) it would need to be implemented by Blizzard, not the user community, and b) upgrading gems and runes makes a new item from the input items. For example, say I wanted a Zod rune that could not be detected as a duplicate (assuming a fingerprint system were in place). I could start by duping the highest rune in my possession, running it through the cube to get the next higher, and so on. Because each upgrade is an item created by the game, the game would generate legitimate fingerprints. This would apply to Zod as well, so as far as the game or any tools such as ATMA or Flavie could tell, it would be a legitimate item. This is precisely the reason that rune trading (at least for higher runes) is banned here.

If the game engine had been designed with significant differences, this might be feasible. For example, when a character entered the game, the game, the game could ensure no items had duplicate fingerprints, and if any did, it could delete all beyond the first. Second, each item could have some kind of validation signature generated from this fingerprint via a one-way hash. That way, if the fingerprint was changed via an editor or some such to bypass the duplicate item removal, the item would become invalid. Yes, this could be broken by disassembling the game code and isolating the hashing algorithm used, but this would make duplicating things a lot harder than it currently is. As further examples, the game could refuse to load character files with the read-only attribute set (and could grab exclusive access to the files, so they couldn't be mucked with), and it could have sanity checks on items (so those ilvl 3 elite uniques would be terminated with prejudice). However, it is totally unreasonable to expect any of these features to be added to D2 at this stage, though we can hope they implement similar measures with D3.

@Catt: I've already posted as to my interaction with Jezz, and am periodically checking this thread to see what the resolution will be.

The Cow King

19-01-2007, 06:40

Important: (I think?)

I think this whole thing is blown out of the proportions. Seriously, I just finished checking all traces of Jezzwash back to me, either by trade or MP and (luckily) there weren't any. This leads to my main point.

Has anyone even checked the trades / MP's of Jezzwash? There are barely any! From what I saw he has traded just ONE item to a person (I didn't check the giveaways as I don't check them) and that was a very minor item at best, easily removed with no loss to the owner.

Also the MP situation, I think it's completely harmless if someone accidentally played with Jezz for a few hours doing baals. It is of no real benefit to call taint. Baals are just xp and from what I can tell, that's were his enigma came to play (baal). Has it even been verified that anyone has played with Jezz WITH the enigma on?

And I definately agree on the matter that everyone who played with him at the lower levels are completely taint free. The only item that seemed duped was the Enigma. If he was using "other means" to get items I'm sure he would have not been on the trading forum looking for stuff.

Just my opinion on the matter.

@chillnkill: great way to make friends :rolleyes:

Hulkamania

19-01-2007, 07:54

Serdash

19-01-2007, 11:50

Been watching this little cluster **** unfold and while no one here knows me I thought I would interject for a second.
Well, based on your post it doesn't quite seem you're here to make many friends, but that's just personal opinion.

This whole issue, while certainly a pain in the butt for some, is quite a wonderful experience for many involved. What I mean by that is, most here are rather young(to me at least) and for those who may someday be invovled in managing a business or organizing a large group this is great stuff....oh how it hurts when your own policies come back to haunt you..LOL!
Elaborate on how policies have come back to haunt us. This section of your post wasn't exactly clear to me. And you'd be surprised at how many in this forum aren't young. We've got some old folk here.

The lesson here is that you can never set a policy without first looking at would will happen if you ever have to scale it out. In other words, you better be careful or else everyone may end up violating the policy. Thats exactly whats happened here. No one forced anyone to adhere to or actively promote a rigid policy regarding duping, hacking, taint, etc. Yet, over time defacto policies got created. Now, because of 1 guy, just about anyone who has MP'd or traded within the timeframe being discussed is tainted according to this communities own hardcore standards. A policy that was supposed to protect the members has come back to bite them. Ouch!
You treat the forums like it's some kind of office. It's not. We can't just walk around to a member, check their items and stash and say, "Oh this isn't right. You've gotta go." We have to base things on trust. It's expected that someone follows the rules anywhere they go. If you want to get down to the real chunk of it, there are probably tons of people frequenting this forum that have hacked, duped, or done something against the forum policies and through MP or trade have 'tainted' someone. The thing is they have yet to be caught. But by what you're saying it's almost as if we shouldn't have a hacking policy at all. Oh yes that would work wonders. Then everyone would have everything they need! We wouldn't need to have a forum because everyone could just make the items they need, and hell, they can even improvise and add a few more mods.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Precident is being created. Is someone who is tainted required to restart? Or, does that only apply to new or unknown members? Or, as one member proposed, should the policy only be implemented if it effects just a few but not if it effects many? Will the mods treat those who are now tainted the same way they treated the taintor? Or will they decided that the rules are too tough and change them so as to not effect too many members? Perhaps a "do your best to clean your stash" will be the answer?
Really you should take a look at a couple of threads linked in these posts, namely one posted by Thyiad where we've discussed such situations a bit more in-depth. You may or may not find the answer to your question.

One things for sure, because of this, a lot of guys here who pride themselves in having a "clean' stash no longer can make that claim. I will even be so bold as to say that if you MP or trade you are tainted whether you want to accept that or not. But, it is what it is regardless.
Some have the same feelings, but it's not necessarily true. I could MP all day long with someone, and later find out they hacked or duped or something. Now during that time of MPing I gained, say, fifteen levels, but the only items I picked up during that session were potions. Now, I play for a few more days on my own, and I find quite a few items I would like to keep, but I find these just before finding out those people I MPed with hacked/duped/whatever. So, through those fifteen levels I gained with them, and those potions I had in my belt, is my character and therefore my stash of items I found with those fifteen levels I otherwise wouldn't have had, tainted? That's somewhat of the discussion one needs to really think about is "What defines taint?"

All that said, I feel bad for those who are caught up in this, but I do honestly believe it's a great learning experience. And not only that, but it sure is fun seeing other people deal with this crap instead of me..LOL!

Yes, very uh... lol. Seriously, though. You say you're sorry but you really don't sound sincere in it all. This "great learning experience" doesn't really make sense either, but then again maybe I just don't fully understand.

And thus concludes my one and only post in this thread that has nothing to really do with Jezz.

kthx.

((Although I'm sure someone will lure me into posting again against my will.))

Randall

19-01-2007, 12:15

@serdash: nice post

No one forced anyone to adhere to or actively promote a rigid policy regarding duping, hacking, taint, etc.

Which forum have you been reading ?

Take a look at the rules, nr 5 for example:
"5. Thou Shalt Not Pimp or aid the Pimping of hacks, Cheats or Farming."

For the rules click on the word rules in this sentence at the top of each page:
"Please read the rules of these forums as we rarely warn before banning."

And the SPF has been hard on legitimacy (specially trading / MP) for a long long time. (hackers joining in the trade has been a problem of SP right since the beginning.)

Randall

Shagsbeard

19-01-2007, 13:20

I've read through this and pretty much kept out of it. I was going to point out the problems back a month or so ago when it was obvious that this guy was a) an idiot, b) a cheater, c) both.

The problem though with our little community is that for every idiot cheater there's three or four cheaters who are smart enough to cover it up. To consider this an isolated instance is wrong. We have to consider the entire trade pool "tainted" equally. That the people who traded with this guy "know" they're tainted and that people who trade with others "pretend not to know they're tainted" shouldn't be treated with different levels of severity. If you trade with people you don't know, you are "tainted".

The whole idea of pretending that the trade pool is legit is the problem. We need to give up on that. There's nothing wrong with trading... we should keep the trade pool active. Just give up on the idea of keeping the pool 'taint-free'. The mental gynastics and hypocracy required to pretend you're 'legit' after trading is too stressful.

The Cow King

19-01-2007, 13:30

Err... that's like saying "dupe free", with dupe being a verb there.

If you give up the concept of taint, then you might as well allow all sorts of third party programs, mods and whatever haxored stuff you can ever imagine!

I think anyone can imagine what becomes of trading then...

Edit: Moo! Agreed! Mods make a decision, I'm with Thyiad below there.

Tupsi

19-01-2007, 13:37

I actually wrote this in the beginning of the week but didn't post it because I was waiting for more information about this whole thing. Telling you this so you don't think I'm completely taint-ignorant bastard.

I made a Multiplayer game (http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5126952&postcount=316). Jezz (http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=5127060&postcount=317) came there and we played together from the beginning of Act 1 to Act 2 Far Oasis. He was using his Frost Maiden wearing full M'avina.

The character I was playing was Echo, a Singer Barb. I haven't moved any items on or off after that, no MP games played, no items found, he has just been standing there waiting for another session.

nepeta

19-01-2007, 13:39

Thyiad

19-01-2007, 14:05

@Mods - when will you be making a decision on how to proceed? At the moment, it's like some kind of limbo, unable to MP/Trade in case I do so with someone who may be asked to delete stuff.

FlimFlan

19-01-2007, 14:19

@Shagsbeard: I don't think many people will say they trade pool is 100% legit. To do the best, or what think is the best, to keep it as clean as possible seems to be better than to say: "dupe your heart out". (Sorry for the hyperbole, couldn't resist returning one)

No pun intended? :p

I think you are reading too much into it. From what I read, he is asking how far do you take it to be taint free. If I MP with someone, who MPd with someone, who MPd with someone who was a cheater, am I tainted? Am I supposed to delete stuff I found?

Also, I very rarely trade anything here anymore, and that is only with people who I know from a long time ago. Even then, I do not know 100% that the person is taint free - whether by their actions or actions of others. I accept the risk because I think that I can make a reasonable assumption about the character of the person I am dealing with. I am more amazed at the number of times I have seen newer players come in and taint the trade pool and people are surprised and get up in arms about it. I am a casual reader here, and I see plenty of people who I would never trade or MP with based on what they post. Yet there are always people willing to take that chance for a great item and too many times they get bitten by it.

nepeta

19-01-2007, 14:47

Ah, that would make more sense. I already thought it wondersome that Shagsbeard would go over such a point again and again.

Thanks FlimFlan and pardon to Shagsbeard :o

Cattleya

19-01-2007, 17:34

Well, I've started deleting the spam from this thread (and I realize the limbo is frustrating) so it looks like it's time to start wrapping up.

I knew that Jezz hadn't done much trading in the forum, but I wasn't sure about the MP (that's a lot harder to trace by reading posts.) I may not have heard from many people simply because there wasn't a lot of MP going on. (After the Enigma in the IFT, I think a lot of people were already on high alert, which could have factored into that.) I'm also going to strongly recommend that people that trade and MP pay attention to what is going on in the forum as a whole. Many people had posted concerns about Jezz early on. When you see that happening, it's often best to consider very carefully if you want to trade and MP with the person, because the risk of something like this happening becomes significantly greater.

Anyhow, here is what I would have said on day 1 if we hadn't gone through this suggestion period:

----------------------------------------
The enigma is bad news, and I don't see how it can be considered to be legit.

Anyone who traded with Jezz after the stash was recovered (December 28th) should delete the items they got in trade. If you have traded those items to someone else, please inform them. If you need help working things out in this case, PM me.

If you MPed with Jezz, delete any memorable items you got from the games. If Jezz's presence in the game had a significant effect on your characters progress (you were rushed, Jezz helped you out in an area you couldn't get through on your own, ect.) we will need to take a closer look at the character. In this case, please PM me (or post in this thread) with the relevant information (including if the Enigma was present in the game.) Otherwise, characters should be fine.

----------------------------------------

After reading through the comments in this thread, that still seems like a pretty good way to clean up as best we can while not being overly unfair to innocent people. (There certainly isn't any reason I can see for anyone to do a restart over this - and there rarely is.) So, thats what I'm going to go with. If you have any questions, PM me (or post them here.)

pharaoh

19-01-2007, 19:12

pharoah:
thank you for the in depth explanation...reading through 50 pages of threads spread all over the forum sucks.

i agree actually, after looking at the coding involved with what i was talking about...ugh. honestly, its more practical to just ask people not to cheat, than to spend a year improving a game that might be outdated in a year and a half (crosses fingers)!Heh, it's already outdated (7-ish years old; that's 49 in dog years), but we still love it. I think you meant it might be replaced, and yeah, that's what we're all hoping for.

<taps fingers whilst awaiting D3>
If you MPed with Jezz, delete any memorable items you got from the games. If Jezz's presence in the game had a significant effect on your characters progress (you were rushed, Jezz helped you out in an area you couldn't get through on your own, ect.) we will need to take a closer look at the character. In this case, please PM me (or post in this thread) with the relevant information (including if the Enigma was present in the game.) Otherwise, characters should be fine.Okay, sounds fair. Do I need to delete the Gull and Guardian Angel I found, considering I was hosting at the time?

chillnkill

19-01-2007, 21:50

but then again maybe I just don't fully understand.

This seems true.

Let me try again...The main point here is that what we have is an idealistic goal meeting reality. Should we condone duping,hacking,etc? No, but should we be smart enough to realize there is no way to stop it and to understand that if we trade or MP we are tainted? I'll give you an anology. I would prefer that my 17 year old daughter not have sex with her boyfriend. Do I encourage it? Hell no! Do I discourage it? Hell yes. Do I realize that most every 17 year old girl who has a boyfriend is having sex, of course. Would I disown my daughter for having sex, even though I don't want her to? No.

As for my laughter. Well, that comes with age. Whats going on here is trivial to me. Entertainment at best. But I learned along time ago that if you can't laugh at the problems confronting you you aren't going to deal very well in life. And of course as that goes this is hardly a problem that should cause much emotion. Afterall, this is just a dumb game made for kids. It's not like this actually means something.

Oh, and sorry if your right and I'm not making friends. I'll let the fact that I'm right make up for it..LOL!

Peace

The Cow King

19-01-2007, 22:03

- Do Not Feed The Monkey -

Cattleya

19-01-2007, 22:07

Okay, sounds fair. Do I need to delete the Gull and Guardian Angel I found, considering I was hosting at the time?

It's my understanding that the Enigma in question wasn't present in the game, so I don't see a problem with keeping those.

Sidhe

19-01-2007, 22:09

Whats going on here is trivial to me. Entertainment at best. [...] Afterall, this is just a dumb game made for kids. It's not like this actually means something.

If that's all it means to you, triviality, amusement, why waste your time, effort and a lot of words on acting the troll in a thread that's aimed at helping people who DO want to be part of this community?

Peace right back at ya. Sorta.

Sint Nikolaas

19-01-2007, 22:09

Pha, delete them and pm me your mail addy. I'll get you a GA and a Gull. Same goed for anyone else.

Cattleya

19-01-2007, 22:13

@chillinkill: Just remember not everyone shares your world view on things. That doesn't make everyone else wrong. If you want to comment further, you can PM me, but we are moving this thread from the philosophical to the practical as far as clean-up goes.

@The Cow King: Watch the bypassing of the word filter, okay?

Edit: @Sint: Thanks, I feel better about that solution than having him just keep the items. :flowers:

Timinator

19-01-2007, 22:14

This seems true.

Let me try again...The main point here is that what we have is an idealistic goal meeting reality. Should we condone duping,hacking,etc? No, but should we be smart enough to realize there is no way to stop it and to understand that if we trade or MP we are tainted? I'll give you an anology. I would prefer that my 17 year old daughter not have sex with her boyfriend. Do I encourage it? Hell no! Do I discourage it? Hell yes. Do I realize that most every 17 year old girl who has a boyfriend is having sex, of course. Would I disown my daughter for having sex, even though I don't want her to? No.

As for my laughter. Well, that comes with age. Whats going on here is trivial to me. Entertainment at best. But I learned along time ago that if you can't laugh at the problems confronting you you aren't going to deal very well in life. And of course as that goes this is hardly a problem that should cause much emotion. Afterall, this is just a dumb game made for kids. It's not like this actually means something.

Oh, and sorry if your right and I'm not making friends. I'll let the fact that I'm right make up for it..LOL!

Peace

chillnkill, most of us understand the analogy very well and all that, but if you don't have anything good to add, don't add it.

I agree with how you could possibly have viewed this (and in some ways agree), but sharing your opinions in the way you have isn't doing you any favours here.

What is up with a blatant troll ending then saying Peace?