Question on gear for a charger

[doksan]

I'm planning on making a conviction charger for mostly pvm. I'm going to use a ebotd war pike as my main weapon so I have some questions regarding the other gear.

--Should I use a Fortitude or Enigma for my charger?
Fortitude has that AMAZING 300% enhanced damage, but from what I've read in guides, chargers need to run around A LOT in which case the 45% faster run/walk from the enigma would be indispensible, not to mention the +2 to all skills.

--What kind of helm should I use on my charger?
Crown of Ages is probably the best but it is way beyond what I can afford. I was thinking about a Dream helm to add some elemental damage to my attack or a Shako for the skills, life, and mana. Maybe a Rockstopper for the awesome life leech.

--I cannot decide on what gloves to give my charger either.
I have narrowed it down to 2 gloves; Laying of the Hands and Dracul's Grasp. Both are very good candidates, I just can't decide which one to go with. Laying of the hands boosts damage versus demons immensely (which can partially make up for the loss from not wearing Fortitude), but Dracul's Grasp has Life Tap which could save my life.

Thanks for reading this long post and thank you for all your help and input.

Doksan

[Maccat]

Why conviction? Fanatism adds a killer chunk of damage.

Fortitude for armor.

Crown of Ages (Ber/Ber) for the helmet or an Kira's Guardian (Um).

Laying of the Hands are probably the best PvM gloves.

[kingdryland]

If you forsake fanaticism in favor of another aura, perhaps you should try holy freeze.Pure chargers have problems with crowd control in pvm. The ED bonus of a synergized charge is huge, perhaps you don't need fana after all.

[mephiztophelez]

I'm planning on making a conviction charger for mostly pvm.

pvm? much cheaper than PvP.

helm: Guillaumes Face (crushing blow, deadly strike and FHR baby!) or a shako or a kira's. a CoA has 100% defensive mods along with a hellacious strength req, useing one for PvM is just a little absurd imho. before you lampoon me, i have a CoA, its a VERY good one, i found it myself. i use a Guillaumes on my pally for pvm and the coa for playing silly buggers on the bloodmoor.
armour: Duress (crushing blow, open wounds and FHR baby!), or if you can't imagine leaving town without being bedecked in HR's, a Fort.
gloves: dracs. the life-leech and 'tap proc will do a LOT to help keep you alive.

charge adds a GREAT THUMPING WODGE of skill based %ed. the extra %ed from a Fort or LoH gloves only adds a smallish fraction of what you get from a fully synergised charge, so it adds surprisingly little to your overall damage in comparison.

now, as too weapon: an ebotd war-pike will hit verra hard, no doubt about it, but it's a range 5 weapon, so you need a LOT of room to charge to use it properly. can i suggest something a little shorter on range? say range 2 or 3 perhaps? i'm about to make an eth Death decapitator to play around with on mah charger.

oh yeah, i would definatly go with Fanatacism rather than 'viction. unless you tend to ALWAYS play with an elemental caster character in your party who will lurve you for your 'viction. fanat gieb you so much more.

[doksan]

Thanks for all your help guys.

I actualy forgot all about guillame's face up until you mentioned it, I will definitely give that a go. I think I'm going to stick with conviction, as my main aura, I'm not going to go for the everyday cookie cutter build, but then again chargers don't cut that many cookies haha.

Doksan

[HCKull]

If your goin to run conviction then dual dreams with 20 into resist lightning makes the most sense.

You will have lvl 30 holy shock with -150 to resists and wiill do huge damage when yout and it will be doubled by your conviction.

Further more, your conviction will break most light immunes.

[doksan]

I thought about that too, but I think I'm going to put both dreams on an act3 merc so I can use an ebotd warpike. I was also thinking about wearing just a dream helm to add some elemental damage but I decided to go with guillame's face to boost my physical damage output. The crushing blow and the deadly strike will far surpass the elemental damage from just one dream.

[SSoG]

Why conviction? Fanatism adds a killer chunk of damage.
First, because Conviction is party friendly. Second, because Conviction pretty much single-handedly solves every AR issue you'll ever encounter without requiring a single piece of gear. Third, because Chargers have SO MUCH ED%, that the extra bit from Fanaticism is sort of just a drop in the bucket.

Conviction Charger is one of my favorite Charger Builds.

now, as too weapon: an ebotd war-pike will hit verra hard, no doubt about it, but it's a range 5 weapon, so you need a LOT of room to charge to use it properly. can i suggest something a little shorter on range? say range 2 or 3 perhaps? i'm about to make an eth Death decapitator to play around with on mah charger.
EEK! NO, NO, NO!!! Don't use death in PvM! Very important!

Death has a 25% chance to cast Glacial on striking. Glacial freezes enemies. Frozen enemies cannot be knockbacked. If an enemy can't be knocked back, he can't be Charge-Chained. This is a Very Bad Thing(tm).

Basically, think of it this way. With a normal Charging weapon, you will get maybe 5 hits per Charge Chain. With Death, you'll get one or two. Sure, Death might deal a lot of damage per hit, but it's only hitting HALF as often, which means in the long run its damage per second is lower even than a lowly Insight.

Check out the PvM Charger guide for more gear and aura recommendations (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=511532).

[doksan]

Thanks for the information SSoG, I read your guide already (several times actually) on PvM chargers and decided to make one of the conviction chargers. It was a fantastic guide and very insightful, it answered all my questions before I asked, especially for the conviction charger.

I have one more question. With my current plan below, how could I change it to get a higher percentage of Crushing Blow and Deadly Strike?

Helm: Guillame's face (15% DS / 35% CB)
Armor: Fortitude (20% DS)
Weapon: EBOTD Warpike
Belt: Verdungo's
Glove: Dracul's Grasp
Boots: Gore Riders ( 15% DS / 15% CB)
Amulet: Highlord's ( 24% DS at level 65 for EBOTD)
Rings: Raven Frost and SoJ

That brings it to 74% Deadly strike and 50% Crushing Blow. I have considered Steelrend to add 10% Crushing Blow, but is it worth it to get rid of the Life Tap on Draculs?

Sorry, I lied. I have another question. Fortitude's strenght in my build is definitely the added percentage to Deadly Strike, and the 300% enhanced damage is good to. But for chargers, they need to run around A LOT. Would sacrificing the Deadly Strike and Enhanced Damage for 45% fwr on an Enigma be a good idea (not to mention the +2 to all skills and the +strength)?

[SSoG]

Thanks for the information SSoG, I read your guide already (several times actually) on PvM chargers and decided to make one of the conviction chargers. It was a fantastic guide and very insightful, it answered all my questions before I asked, especially for the conviction charger.

I have one more question. With my current plan below, how could I change it to get a higher percentage of Crushing Blow and Deadly Strike?

Helm: Guillame's face (15% DS / 35% CB)
Armor: Fortitude (20% DS)
Weapon: EBOTD Warpike
Belt: Verdungo's
Glove: Dracul's Grasp
Boots: Gore Riders ( 15% DS / 15% CB)
Amulet: Highlord's ( 24% DS at level 65 for EBOTD)
Rings: Raven Frost and SoJ

That brings it to 74% Deadly strike and 50% Crushing Blow. I have considered Steelrend to add 10% Crushing Blow, but is it worth it to get rid of the Life Tap on Draculs?

Sorry, I lied. I have another question. Fortitude's strenght in my build is definitely the added percentage to Deadly Strike, and the 300% enhanced damage is good to. But for chargers, they need to run around A LOT. Would sacrificing the Deadly Strike and Enhanced Damage for 45% fwr on an Enigma be a good idea (not to mention the +2 to all skills and the +strength)?

First off, the Crushing Blow. This one's easy- you don't need it. Crushing Blow is more for characters with faster, weaker attacks- for a character like you who kills everything in 3-4 hits, anyway, it's sort of pointless. Keep your drac's.

Second off, the Deadly Strike. This one's not so easy. Pretty much the only other realistic slot to get Deadly Strike from is your weapon. Not that it's a big deal, though- I mean, it's not as if damage is going to be a weakness. You'll never see a Charger sitting in channel crying about how he only has 80% Deadly Strike to go with his 15,000 average damage per hit.

My take on Chargers is that I know the damage isn't going to be a problem, so why not focus on other mods? The damage will take care of itself. As a result, I never have any problem sacrificing some DS or CB or ED% for a more useful mod like Resists, PDR, Defense, FHR, FR/W, etc.

[mephiztophelez]

EEK! NO, NO, NO!!! Don't use death in PvM! Very important!

Death has a 25% chance to cast Glacial on striking. Glacial freezes enemies. Frozen enemies cannot be knockbacked. If an enemy can't be knocked back, he can't be Charge-Chained. This is a Very Bad Thing(tm).

Basically, think of it this way. With a normal Charging weapon, you will get maybe 5 hits per Charge Chain. With Death, you'll get one or two. Sure, Death might deal a lot of damage per hit, but it's only hitting HALF as often, which means in the long run its damage per second is lower even than a lowly Insight.
hehe good point. i was actually planning to use the e-Death MOSTLY for pvp (and then, mostly vs neccy's and wind-droods)

besides, with all that damage (and ~94'ish % deadly strike), one or two hits oughta do for most monsters :laugh:

zealing with it is essentially out of the question however.

[Hymn]

If you're gonna go conviction route, go with dream / max holy shock synergies.

You will do hellacious elemental damage O_o, plus dream has nice mods to begin with.


EDIT: I retract that statement, the damage is nothing compared to what you would get out of fanaticism.

[SSoG]

If you're gonna go conviction route, go with dream / max holy shock synergies.

You will do hellacious elemental damage O_o, plus dream has nice mods to begin with.


EDIT: I retract that statement, the damage is nothing compared to what you would get out of fanaticism.

Dream + Conviction will be much better than Fanaticism. It'll give you a comparable damage boost (500% ED from Fanat + 500 base damage weapon = 2500 extra damage, a figure that dual dreams can destroy with Conviction active). It also has other advantages- mainly, it gives you a PI/IM solution (while Fanat just makes you that much more screwed), and Conviction means never having to worry about your AR.

[Hymn]

Dream + Conviction will be much better than Fanaticism. It'll give you a comparable damage boost (500% ED from Fanat + 500 base damage weapon = 2500 extra damage, a figure that dual dreams can destroy with Conviction active). It also has other advantages- mainly, it gives you a PI/IM solution (while Fanat just makes you that much more screwed), and Conviction means never having to worry about your AR.

I wouldn't try dual dream, I calculated it out with single dream, and only achieved about 2k damage, not including the bonus from conviction.

Its not like a charger has to really worry about AR anyways >_>

[doksan]

Chargers definitely have to worry about their AR. Even though each charge may knockback the monster, the charge itself won't hit the monster if you have no AR. If I don't need crushing blow and my damage is high enough that deadly strike is not so important I guess I'll use a Dream helm instead of Guillame's.

[SSoG]

I wouldn't try dual dream, I calculated it out with single dream, and only achieved about 2k damage, not including the bonus from conviction.

Its not like a charger has to really worry about AR anyways >_>

If the Charger is using a 1-handed Grief, he can expect somewhere around 400 average damage. Level 20 Fanaticism has 373% ED, which means it adds (3.73 * 400) or 1492 average damage. A single Dream synergized by Holy Shock will add 1101.5 average damage, and Conviction will boost that some more (potentially doubling it up to 2203 average damage). So Conviction + Dream will deal more damage than Fanaticism, even with a single Dream. After that, it's a question of ancillary effects. Fanat adds a relatively pathetic AR boost and some IAS (which doesn't help while Charging). Conviction effectively multiplies the Charger's final AR by 10 (slvl 20 Charge + slvl 20 Fanaticism is effectively equal to +470% AR, while Slvl 20 Charge + slvl 20 Conviction is effectively equal to +4250% AR :shocked: ). Advantage: Conviction.

Chargers with 2-handers will get more damage out of Fanaticism than Holy Shock, but it will still be a lot closer than you think, and adding a second Dream will again tip the favor towards Shock. Also, it's important to note that Holy Shock provides something Fanaticism doesn't- a PI/IM solution. A Holy Shock Charger can just switch to Zeal with his bare hands and he can take out any PI, as well as being completely safe from IM. A Fanaticism Charger, on the other hand, has nothing to do against PIs and around IM except pray that he doesn't kill himself while he's waiting for his partymates to get some kills.

The one drawback to Holy Shock is that you have to synergize it, which takes points away from the Charge synergy, but in the end it is a fully acceptable and very powerful Charger Aura.

[doksan]

I know this is kind of a dumb question, but to synergize the holy shock from dream, you put points into the holy shock offensive aura? How does it work?

[SSoG]

I know this is kind of a dumb question, but to synergize the holy shock from dream, you put points into the holy shock offensive aura? How does it work?

Not a dumb question at all.

OSkills, Charges, "Chance To Cast" skills, and Aura-When-Equipped skills all function EXACTLY like they would if you had that exact slvl of skill yourself. If you're casting charges of slvl 15 Fireball, it's exactly like casting slvl 15 Fireballs. If you have a slvl 30 Holy Shock from your gear, it's exactly like having a native slvl 30 Holy Shock. Anything that synergizes a native skill will synergize that skill in CtC/Charged/Oskill/Aura-When-Equipped form.

In other words, you'd synergize the Holy Shock from Dream exactly like you'd synergize a standard Holy Shock- by putting points into Resist Lightning and/or Salvation. You don't need a single point in Holy Shock (and in fact, points in Holy Shock would be worthless because you couldn't stack them and they wouldn't boost the damage from Dream, anyway).

[Hymn]

Not a dumb question at all.

OSkills, Charges, "Chance To Cast" skills, and Aura-When-Equipped skills all function EXACTLY like they would if you had that exact slvl of skill yourself. If you're casting charges of slvl 15 Fireball, it's exactly like casting slvl 15 Fireballs. If you have a slvl 30 Holy Shock from your gear, it's exactly like having a native slvl 30 Holy Shock. Anything that synergizes a native skill will synergize that skill in CtC/Charged/Oskill/Aura-When-Equipped form.

In other words, you'd synergize the Holy Shock from Dream exactly like you'd synergize a standard Holy Shock- by putting points into Resist Lightning and/or Salvation. You don't need a single point in Holy Shock (and in fact, points in Holy Shock would be worthless because you couldn't stack them and they wouldn't boost the damage from Dream, anyway).

And this is exactly how aura-dins work.

Just saying I would rather have a heavier damaging weapon for charge (since as long as you hit your opponent, he cant strike back [due to knockback], so a shield is essentially worthless [plus you are always moving]) instead of a sword/shield combo.

Gimme a Windhammer or (eth zod)Tomb Reaver or even a viperfork over a shield anyday.

[SSoG]

And this is exactly how aura-dins work.

Just saying I would rather have a heavier damaging weapon for charge (since as long as you hit your opponent, he cant strike back [due to knockback], so a shield is essentially worthless [plus you are always moving]) instead of a sword/shield combo.

Gimme a Windhammer or (eth zod)Tomb Reaver or even a viperfork over a shield anyday.

I fully agree, at least as far as PvM play is concerned. That said, I still LOVE Holy Shock as a primary aura, and think it's way better than Fanaticism.

Think of it this way- you won't have any trouble at all killing non-PI monsters with a Cruel Thundermaul and a synergized Charge, whether you run Holy Shock, Fanaticism, or Prayer. If it's not PI, it's as good as dead. The two things that give Chargers the most trouble are PIs and IM. Holy Shock solves both problems. Fanaticism solves neither.

Basically, Fanaticism helps you kill the monsters you don't actually need any help killing, and doesn't help you kill the monsters that you DO need help killing. As a result, I think it's one of the worse choices for a Charger aura.

[doksan]

So holy shock for charger aura, got it. Since I'm going to use holy shock from a dream helm, I'm going to run conviction as my main aura. I've heard from all parts of the forum that there is a cap of -150% resistance to enemies; is there also a cap for the -defence percentage? I don't want to waste points into conviction if there is a cap for -defense.

[emar]

So holy shock for charger aura, got it. Since I'm going to use holy shock from a dream helm, I'm going to run conviction as my main aura. I've heard from all parts of the forum that there is a cap of -150% resistance to enemies; is there also a cap for the -defence percentage? I don't want to waste points into conviction if there is a cap for -defense.

The defense does not appear to be capped, but the increase is fairly low enough that it is not worth the points to extend beyond 25 for that purpose.

Lvl 25: -92 Percent
Lvl 30: -94 Percent
Lvl 40: -97 Percent

Choice is yours I suppose. You really shouldn't have problems hitting though.

[doksan]

The defense does not appear to be capped, but the increase is fairly low enough that it is not worth the points to extend beyond 25 for that purpose.

Lvl 25: -92 Percent
Lvl 30: -94 Percent
Lvl 40: -97 Percent

Choice is yours I suppose. You really shouldn't have problems hitting though.

Wow, it really isn't worth it to go beyond 25 levels for conviction. Thanks for the info.

[SSoG]

Wow, it really isn't worth it to go beyond 25 levels for conviction. Thanks for the info.

Well, the diminishing returns aren't nearly as harsh as they look. For instance, going from slvl 30 to slvl 40 will cut enemy defense in half, which is a really big difference (if they have 1000 defense under slvl 30 Conviction, they'll only have 500 under slvl 40).

With that said... you really won't have ANY trouble hitting even with just a level 20 Conviction. Level 20 Conviction + Level 20 Charge is the equivalent of +4250% AR (at the very least). That's not a typo, I really meant 4250% AR. As you can imagine, this is more than sufficient for general PvM purposes. Maxing Conviction for the CtH boost is rather frivolous.

[doksan]

I've just started making my charger and have been having great success. I have to say that charge chains are THE coolest attacks in the game and they are so much fun to do. But I have problems dealing with act bosses. Should I charge and run back and charge again, or should I invest some points into zeal and switch to a one-handed weapon?

[Hymn]

I've just started making my charger and have been having great success. I have to say that charge chains are THE coolest attacks in the game and they are so much fun to do. But I have problems dealing with act bosses. Should I charge and run back and charge again, or should I invest some points into zeal and switch to a one-handed weapon?

Chargers are not the best boss killers because they lack the two necessary traits that make boss killers... killers.

1. Heavy non-physical Damage - Hammerdins, Single Tree Sorceresses, Windy Druids.

2. Crushing Blow/CTC Static - Quick melee members such as Frenzy Barbs, Zealers, Fury wolves...


Your best bet (without straying from your path of a charger) is to gain a little bit of crushing blow, using a merc to hold the act boss in place, and doing the run away -> charge trick that people do. Another option is to make a crushing blow act 5 merc.

Eth 'Last Wish' Colossus Blade
Eth Andy's Face
Eth 'Trechery' Sacred Armor

[SSoG]

I've just started making my charger and have been having great success. I have to say that charge chains are THE coolest attacks in the game and they are so much fun to do. But I have problems dealing with act bosses. Should I charge and run back and charge again, or should I invest some points into zeal and switch to a one-handed weapon?

Switch to Smite and get some Crushing Blow gear. Best boss solution for a Charger, no question.

[Hymn]

Switch to Smite and get some Crushing Blow gear. Best boss solution for a Charger, no question.

but then he wouldn't be much of a charger, he would be a smiter.

[kingdryland]

My melee pallies use all three skills, zeal,charge,smite. That's what we used to call a "Knight". For moving fast and hunting down reatring or standing single targets ,charge is king. For dealing with crowds and as a main skill, zeal is the best. And as a boss killer, smiter comes on top. With grief it is possible to have all three attacks at a very strong level. There is no real room for pure charges or smiters in general pvm UNLESS we are talking about wanting a challenge or doing it for "ideology" reason.

[SSoG]

but then he wouldn't be much of a charger, he would be a smiter.

If a Charger uses Smite on rare occasions, that doesn't mean he's not a Charger... it simply means he's a very smart Charger. I mean, if a Frenzy Barb or Concentrator uses a 1-point Berserk in CS so that he doesn't kill himself on IM, does that mean that he's a Berserker? No, it just means that he's smart enough to recognize when is primary attack is a bad idea, and thrifty enough to get the most use possible out of a 1-point wonder.

Same deal with Chargers. Use Charge against 99% of the monsters, and against the 1% that can't be knocked back (Act Bosses, mostly), switch to Smite. If every other class is allowed to use multiple primary attacks, so are Paladins. :laugh:

[Hymn]

If a Charger uses Smite on rare occasions, that doesn't mean he's not a Charger... it simply means he's a very smart Charger. I mean, if a Frenzy Barb or Concentrator uses a 1-point Berserk in CS so that he doesn't kill himself on IM, does that mean that he's a Berserker? No, it just means that he's smart enough to recognize when is primary attack is a bad idea, and thrifty enough to get the most use possible out of a 1-point wonder.

Same deal with Chargers. Use Charge against 99% of the monsters, and against the 1% that can't be knocked back (Act Bosses, mostly), switch to Smite. If every other class is allowed to use multiple primary attacks, so are Paladins. :laugh:
As the guy said before, It was more of a ideology thing instead of a utility thing. Using smite as a charger is like dipping your vanilla ice cream in chocolate. It just isn't pure vanilla after you do it.

A more vibrant example is a Wandazon. Ok, you've defined a very very specific build (or lack there of) with just a single word. Sure, you could use lightning fury on switch, because using a wand to attack is ALWAYS a bad idea, but then you wouldn't be a wandazon.

[doksan]

As the guy said before, It was more of a ideology thing instead of a utility thing. Using smite as a charger is like dipping your vanilla ice cream in chocolate. It just isn't pure vanilla after you do it.

A more vibrant example is a Wandazon. Ok, you've defined a very very specific build (or lack there of) with just a single word. Sure, you could use lightning fury on switch, because using a wand to attack is ALWAYS a bad idea, but then you wouldn't be a wandazon.

What you say is absolutely true, however, in the case of a charger, charge is NOT a bad idea as with your wandazon. I also believe the correct thing to do is put a point in smite, it is truly a one point wonder and is a prerequisite for Holy Shield. What happens when a zealot faces a physical Immune monster, or when a Hammerdin faces the Wailing Beast, or when a poison necromancer faces poison immune? They all use secondary attacks to deal with them, I do at least, as I am not for running away from enemies. Just because a poison necromancer uses bone spirit once in a while or a hammerdin uses smite once in a while doesn't make them any less of a build. I also agree that using smite is a utility while pure charge is an ideology, but I also like diversity. Even the coolest attack in the game gets boring after a while.

**Even though you dip the vanilla ice cream in chocolate, it's still vanilla ice cream, its just got a chocolate coating. Which isn't all that bad:grin: **

[kingdryland]

While when I used to play a hammerdin I smited the wailing beasts, my zealot or any nicely geared zealot thrashes through physical immunes using zeal and his switch weapon.