View Full Version : Silly anti-melee build (gearswitch, really) idea :D
Facts: bramble+edge give a 1650% damage return thorns aura. (Max level thorns for bramble.) Divide by 6, then by 10 for pvp damage penalties. (The 10 is the special thorns/IM damage penalty.) Multiply by two since your opponent is amp damaged. Result? You return 55% of all damage done to your hp. You take 1000 damage, they take 550 damage. (Assuming they have no DR.)
Conclusion? Amp damage your melee opponent, be they a smiter or a BvC (some text in brackets just for kicks) and as long as you double their life you auto-win, no attacking needed. Life tap would be tricky with smiters, have to hope it doesn't proc. Damage reduction would throw a wrench in the plan, you'd only be returning 41.25% of all damage... Which actually is still kick ***.
So yeah. Bow "NvB" necros? A way for fury/rabies druids to deal with smiters? (Okay, hitting them with that 33% amp damage throwing axe would be tough, but it'd work in theory right?) Fun switch for wind druids/barbs/anyone else with lots of hp?
It's late and I don't want to spend time thinking this out, so let's have some feedback :prop:
amp damage removes damage reduction. that's how it works. removes it by 100%, effectively "amplifying" damage by 50% on someone with max dr, before the pvp penalty of course.
Err, I believe amp damage acts on a hidden "physical resistance" property. So if you amp someone with 0 DR, they'd have -100% phys resist, but with 50% DR they'd have only -50%... So you effectively tripled your damage against a 50% DR opponent. Or increased it by 50% compared to someone with 0% phys resist... And if you're talking in percentages the PvP penalty does not apply, no?
You 2 are misunderstanding eachother.
Amp = -100% res.
Amp removes phys res, except for straight dr/
Summon a massive army with you necro and let the enemy wail on it....lets see how long they last :P (note: using these stacked thons aura + amp can actually take ubers in under 7 of their own hits o.O, provided their either poisoned or have open wounds on them :P)
Niortimus Dryskol
19-12-2006, 05:03
Summon a massive army with you necro and let the enemy wail on it....lets see how long they last :P (note: using these stacked thons aura + amp can actually take ubers in under 7 of their own hits o.O, provided their either poisoned or have open wounds on them :P)
I'd love to see that in action, sounds neat.
jakotaco
19-12-2006, 22:21
unfortunately thorns his heavily nerfed in pvp, especially if the damage is returned by attacking the player himself. Mercs and minions may return decent dmg however. Most "decent" pvper can often find a way out of this, be it life tap, open wounds or widowmaker.
Silent Shaddow
19-12-2006, 22:59
this seems very open to abuse by some1 using an elemental attack
PhatTrumpet
19-12-2006, 23:45
Most people would probably hit you once and switch to Widow.
mephiztophelez
20-12-2006, 01:39
this seems very open to abuse by some1 using an elemental attack
a poison necro for instance?
Lol yeah, but it would stop those annoyin meleers :P, smitadins cant lifetap you if they get 1 hit KOed every time :)
Darksteel
21-12-2006, 07:21
Hmm could you imagine if a nec used this with amp and had someone hit a clay golem or bone prison/wall?
Mega ouch.
O.O A smiter would end up going to physical therapy for weeks :laugh:
Conclusion? Amp damage your melee opponent, be they a smiter or a BvC (some text in brackets just for kicks) and as long as you double their life you auto-win, no attacking needed. Life tap would be tricky with smiters, have to hope it doesn't proc. Damage reduction would throw a wrench in the plan, you'd only be returning 41.25% of all damage... Which actually is still kick ***.
Another problem is the thing you mentioned. As long as you double their life...
Getting twice as much life on a necro as a bvc or shaper druid has, uhm... Yay, aim for 12-20k life! :laugh:
Anyways, this is very annoying for shapers if paired up with bone walls and clay golems. If a necro traps you with boneprisons and sends the clay golem at you, then casts IM, you are screwed.
Barbs can quite often have a point in berserk though, making this useless. Smiters abuse lifetap, so to beat one of them, you'll need about 10 times as much life as they have. That's tricky.
Kabouter
21-12-2006, 13:03
This will not work. Thorns will do almost nothing in PVP. What does work is having bramble on your merc. Mercs are considered BM though :\
edit: typo
How about a Bear? There's still the thing where you can do a normal attack with a bow when shifted, right?
20 Lycanthropy
20 Dire Wolf (passive life bonus?)
20 Oak
20 Hunger
17 Poison Creeper
1 Bear
1 Pre-reqs
(done at 90)
Just keep hitting 'em with Hunger while they're attacking you, you wont' be doing much damage, especially because of the -75% damage on Hunger, but iirc it attacks crazy fast. Just wear mad +life items and get enough res to withstand partial elemental attacks. Atma's for the amp., maybe Metalgrid for some BM iron maiden. I can see it now...:rolleyes:
i think maybe a rabies druid would be a better choice. the bramble would add some nice damage to your attack and if you land even 1 hit the opponents life will go down drastically making it easier to kill them with the thorns aura. this would still be very effective with 37x 20lifers in stash as well :D.
i really like the hunger idea, but landing enough attacks to make it worthwhile would be a challenge.
wow just realized i went way over the max skill points you can get
whoops. yeah, rabies would work too, but i feel like it wouldn't be as stylish
What could work:
Using any kind of summons with a high amount of life.
This together with the minions will work well against most chars.
Amazon: She'll probably try to LF you, meaning that you'll need a ranged attack, and duel her like some kind of thrower, ehm.
Assassins: Probably won't work due to mind blast being a multiple hitting attack, and she'll probably use Traps to waste your minions.
Barbarian: If using leap, life tap, leap, teleport, ww, then you'll be screwed, because he can single you out, and ww you to death. If not he'll be forced to hit your meatshields, and with more than 50% damage returned Life Tap wont nullify. If Berzerking he shouldn't be hitting.
Druid: Against shifters it should work fine, against windies, well you'll have a meat shield that wont die easily, but I really don't know how nados works against meatshields.
Paladin: Should work fine against smiters, since more than 50% damage reduced beats the 50% of damage goes to life. With enough summons you wont get hit, and the paladin will kill itself. If using FoH, most paladins won't be able to hit you. If using Hammers, well your meatshield will be a good help, if he teles on top, you might win, if you have enough damage, and don't get hitted due to your meatshield. If he plays defensive, you'll have to chase before he'll be able to make IBF.
Sorceress: Against a meeler it should work fine, against a caster, well if you can get some immune summons to the specific type of element (requiring revive), and then probably get some high res + absorb, and well, just high res + absorb should do it I guess.
Amazon: She'll probably try to LF you, meaning that you'll need a ranged attack, and duel her like some kind of thrower, ehm.
But if you are totally based on your summons, how will you duel someone who has 100% elemental damage?
Barbarian: If using leap, life tap, leap, teleport, ww, then you'll be screwed, because he can single you out, and ww you to death. If not he'll be forced to hit your meatshields, and with more than 50% damage returned Life Tap wont nullify. If Berzerking he shouldn't be hitting.
Hah, you are pretty wrong. Berserk will hit you, pretty easily to be exact. In the hands of a decent player that is.
If using FoH, most paladins won't be able to hit you. If using Hammers, well your meatshield will be a good help, if he teles on top, you might win, if you have enough damage, and don't get hitted due to your meatshield. If he plays defensive, you'll have to chase before he'll be able to make IBF.
But the bad side is that your precious damage returned only works on physical, melee damage.
Sorceress: Against a meeler it should work fine, against a caster, well if you can get some immune summons to the specific type of element (requiring revive), and then probably get some high res + absorb, and well, just high res + absorb should do it I guess.
They are all elemental so with just damage returned you will never win.
But if you are totally based on your summons, how will you duel someone who has 100% elemental damage?
Hah, you are pretty wrong. Berserk will hit you, pretty easily to be exact. In the hands of a decent player that is.
But the bad side is that your precious damage returned only works on physical, melee damage.
They are all elemental so with just damage returned you will never win.
The OP only stated he was using a necro, nothing about skill points. He can choice if wanted, revives that can kill for him, or he can maks out his poison and bone (poison part) and still have plenty for summons. Using bramble, he could also use an amulet with charges, off course meaning he would have to limit his teleport a bit, and give tons of money to his necro, it still should work.
Thereby I don't think this char needs to be 100% based on summons.
I assumme you mean while a meatshield is minionsstacking on top of the berserking barb, I can't see how, could you explain that please? I've also heard you can aim very well with FoH, eventhough a lot of minions is on the same spot as you are?
Yes you're absolutely right, if it's only damage returning, maksimum summons, blah, then this necro will never be able to beat anything else, than probably a smiter, and a non-elemental ****er.
The OP only stated he was using a necro, nothing about skill points. He can choice if wanted, revives that can kill for him, or he can maks out his poison and bone (poison part) and still have plenty for summons. Using bramble, he could also use an amulet with charges, off course meaning he would have to limit his teleport a bit, and give tons of money to his necro, it still should work.
Thereby I don't think this char needs to be 100% based on summons.
I assumme you mean while a meatshield is minionsstacking on top of the berserking barb, I can't see how, could you explain that please? I've also heard you can aim very well with FoH, eventhough a lot of minions is on the same spot as you are?
Yes you're absolutely right, if it's only damage returning, maksimum summons, blah, then this necro will never be able to beat anything else, than probably a smiter, and a non-elemental ****er.
My point: He has to use either a merc with Bramble or wear bramble himself. Killing a merc is too easy, and wearing a bramble on the character kills summon stack. And a non-tele caster is as good as dead nowadays.
And FoH is still pure lightning damage, fool.
And haven't your ever heard of Howl and Leap? Or Life Tap?
PhatTrumpet
04-01-2007, 21:45
And FoH is still pure lightning damage, fool.
A serious question for you: why go out of your way to be an a-hole? You could just as easily have ended the sentence after the word "damage". Do you get off on the inevitable flame war that ensues, because I really can't see any other explanation for your generally abrasive posting style.
A serious question for you: why go out of your way to be an a-hole? You could just as easily have ended the sentence after the word "damage". Do you get off on the inevitable flame war that ensues, because I really can't see any other explanation for your generally abrasive posting style.
Nah, I just find people who think they know something without even knowing basics like that to be rather .. foolish.
i think it's more that you are an a-hole, and you are constantly flaming. people play games...to have fun. or win money, but that's a different story. just chill, tell people what they need to hear, and maybe if you're not so belligerent about it, they'll say to themselves "Oh, I should go read up on that." a little goes a long way olba.
i think it's more that you are an a-hole, and you are constantly flaming. people play games...to have fun. or win money, but that's a different story. just chill, tell people what they need to hear, and maybe if you're not so belligerent about it, they'll say to themselves "Oh, I should go read up on that." a little goes a long way olba.
You know, I get this from just about ... wait, everyone says so. However, I would rather prefer to just get down to the business than have a cup of coffee, discuss the weather, have a walk in the park and then get down to business.
So, applying that, it would go like this:
A person wants to look like he knows something, but he makes a slight mistake
I will be quick and precise to point that mistake out
I mean, if you are plain wrong, why wouldn't anyone just tell it right away?
Also, if you take a look at Krim's post, it wasn't the most polite in the world, now was it?
Guess it's because I prefer maths.
You get it from everyone because it's true, and I'm guessing not many people like it. I didn't say you had to spend that much more time on your posts, just make them a bit more polite; more people will like you, you probably won't feel better about yourself, but whatever, and everyone will be happy...yay!
P.S. I don't know which post of Krim's you are referring to, he seems pretty terse and at least somewhat polite in all of his. Unless of course, you're referring to Phat's, in which case, you were wrong, fool.
You get it from everyone because it's true, and I'm guessing not many people like it. I didn't say you had to spend that much more time on your posts, just make them a bit more polite; more people will like you, you probably won't feel better about yourself, but whatever, and everyone will be happy...yay!
Getting the point through to the other side > side effects
In war, you do not give a damn if you shoot a clean hole through the forehead, you just have to kill your enemy.
P.S. I don't know which post of Krim's you are referring to, he seems pretty terse and at least somewhat polite in all of his. Unless of course, you're referring to Phat's, in which case, you were wrong, fool.
Guess I was thinking about the end of Krim's post, where there's a censored word. I think it hints that he wasn't too calm, or then it's just his style. At least I don't pull curse words out of my backside every time someone wins in an argument. Nor do I get frustrated on forums too easily.
Forums =/ War.
I highly doubt it was used in an "angry" way. "That's one crazy mother ****er" is much different than "**** YOU"
btw, I didn't actually swear, I just put asterisks in.
FLAMEWAR OVER!
My point: He has to use either a merc with Bramble or wear bramble himself. Killing a merc is too easy, and wearing a bramble on the character kills summon stack. And a non-tele caster is as good as dead nowadays.
And FoH is still pure lightning damage, fool.
And haven't your ever heard of Howl and Leap? Or Life Tap?
Using a meatshield that teles on the same spot after each tele wont make the merc an easy kill, a merc can typically take 1 blow (maybe 2) but with 20 minions on top, those blows wont necessarily hit the merc.
Wearing bramble on yourself would mean you would have to use a teleport amulet, I'm not sure how many charges such one has. But with enough charges of teleports, and a lot of gold the necro could still be just as viable I think.
Yes, FOH is pure lightning, but that wasn't my question to you. It seems like my english isn't good enough since you happen to misunderstand a lot of my posts nevertheless I'm glad you take the time to discuss my posts with me. I ment following: If a necro, and 20 or so minions are on the same spot, how would you only by using berserk hit the one 1 necro in between a lot of other minions, since what the mouse will target should be completely random when targeting on the same spot. The same goes for FoH. Although some paladins claims to be able to aim with this skill in that situation, and I find it hard to believe, if you know how, please explain, thank you.
I mentioned Leap myself, Howl is to fragile to use because you'll most likely take atleast one hit while howling, I mean you open yourself up completely in that limited range, but it might work, haven't tried it.
I've mentioned more than one time now, that with more than 50% damage returned after all the reductions of pvp, then will Life tap only reduce the damage returned not nulify or give life.
Guess I was thinking about the end of Krim's post, where there's a censored word. I think it hints that he wasn't too calm, or then it's just his style. At least I don't pull curse words out of my backside every time someone wins in an argument. Nor do I get frustrated on forums too easily.
Hehe, that was a typo. I mean following: non Elemental-s h i f t e r. But it seems like I forgot an f, and it ended up with: non Elemental-s h i t e r, where s h i t not being allowed it seems, but it was just a mistake, unfourtunately that mistake took up a half page of this thread. :sad2:
Also, overall there's a single flaw in this thing:
With 50% DR, your opponent takes 42.075% of the damage that they deal. However, that's after a lot of penalties, and he heals 50% of the damage he deals (which does not go through any penalties), so he heals effectively 50%, making him heal 7.925% every hit he does, making this plan totally useless. Actually, even 22% PDR would be enough to nullify this ideal, but that would make it so that he person only heals 0,071% of their damage.
Using a meatshield that teles on the same spot after each tele wont make the merc an easy kill, a merc can typically take 1 blow (maybe 2) but with 20 minions on top, those blows wont necessarily hit the merc.
Howl. Howl will scatter the minions the second you stand still, making it rather easy to get to your merc and lock on it. Leap will also be of a lot of them.
Yes, FOH is pure lightning, but that wasn't my question to you. It seems like my english isn't good enough since you happen to misunderstand a lot of my posts nevertheless I'm glad you take the time to discuss my posts with me. I ment following: If a necro, and 20 or so minions are on the same spot, how would you only by using berserk hit the one 1 necro in between a lot of other minions, since what the mouse will target should be completely random when targeting on the same spot. The same goes for FoH. Although some paladins claims to be able to aim with this skill in that situation, and I find it hard to believe, if you know how, please explain, thank you.
You are totally ignoring Leap and Howl.
I mentioned Leap myself, Howl is to fragile to use because you'll most likely take atleast one hit while howling, I mean you open yourself up completely in that limited range, but it might work, haven't tried it.
One hit does not matter if your build kills me by me hitting you. And if you are a poisonmancer, your damage will be rather pathetic (255 over 2 seconds) without Lower Resist.
I've mentioned more than one time now, that with more than 50% damage returned after all the reductions of pvp, then will Life tap only reduce the damage returned not nulify or give life.
You are ignoring PDR%. Look at the top of this post for more details. The damage after PDR% can be as low as 42% without Life Tap, meaning that you WOULD heal.
Also, overall there's a single flaw in this thing:
With 50% DR, your opponent takes 42.075% of the damage that they deal. However, that's after a lot of penalties, and he heals 50% of the damage he deals (which does not go through any penalties), so he heals effectively 50%, making him heal 7.925% every hit he does, making this plan totally useless. Actually, even 22% PDR would be enough to nullify this ideal, but that would make it so that he person only heals 0,071% of their damage.
Howl. Howl will scatter the minions the second you stand still, making it rather easy to get to your merc and lock on it. Leap will also be of a lot of them.
You are totally ignoring Leap and Howl.
One hit does not matter if your build kills me by me hitting you. And if you are a poisonmancer, your damage will be rather pathetic (255 over 2 seconds) without Lower Resist.
You are ignoring PDR%. Look at the top of this post for more details. The damage after PDR% can be as low as 42% without Life Tap, meaning that you WOULD heal.
My bad, I thought everything was counted for, and that no matter what there would be more than 50% physical damage returned.
I did also thought you ment by using only berzerk and nothing else.
I've heard of poison mancers reaching +20k, after 95% that would still be +1/6k over 2 seconds, and 1/12k over 1 second, so yep the damage can be reduced to pretty much nothing at all with some stacked, and +maximum resist.
Now for the heck of it, since I've already maked this suggestion in another thread (although this might hijack this thread, which I'm sorry for if that's the case)
What if the necro revives something like 10 Vipers or 10 Gloams, then the necro'd also have a source of damage in his summons. :smiley:
I've heard of poison mancers reaching +20k, after 95% that would still be +1/6k over 2 seconds, and 1/12k over 1 second, so yep the damage can be reduced to pretty much nothing at all with some stacked, and +maximum resist.
The maximum you can reach while retaining max dr , 125 fcr and 85 fhr is 10k. And that's 85 damage per two seconds against 95% Poison Resistance.
Now for the heck of it, since I've already maked this suggestion in another thread (although this might hijack this thread, which I'm sorry for if that's the case)
What if the necro revives something like 10 Vipers or 10 Gloams, then the necro'd also have a source of damage in his summons. :smiley:
Revives have a timer on them, so the opponent can just play defensive until the timer is gone (I believe it's three minutes).
The maximum you can reach while retaining max dr , 125 fcr and 85 fhr is 10k. And that's 85 damage per two seconds against 95% Poison Resistance.
Revives have a timer on them, so the opponent can just play defensive until the timer is gone (I believe it's three minutes).
I am thinking the only way to make thorns work pvp on a player is to use a druid with like 100 life armor with 4 prubys, 4 jah shield, etc - no damage reduced at 12k life or so.
I am thinking the only way to make thorns work pvp on a player is to use a druid with like 100 life armor with 4 prubys, 4 jah shield, etc - no damage reduced at 12k life or so.
I doubt it would work. Indeed, your PDR% will maximize the damage he deals to you, but his own PDR% is enough to cancel out Bramble + Edge (1650% damage returned total). You should look at my calculations in one of the posts, I proved that with Life Tap even 22% PDR is enough to just barely negate Bramble + Edge (you gain 0.071% life, meaning you receive no damage, and you barely heal).
And that was when hitting minions. If you plan to make the opponents hit you, be prepared for a HUGE disappointment. You see, his damage is already reduced to 17% via PvP penalty, then he received 4.7685% of his original damage. With, for example a BvC's 7k, that would mean 333.795 damage returned, without counting in any Life Tap or PDR%. Now, if you add PDR%, the damage returned from his original damage is (17% * 1650% * 17% *10% * 61%) 2.908785% of his original damage, in the case of 7k damage, that would be 203.61495 damage returned. Still no Life Tap. Now, if you add Life Tap, he heals (50% - 2.908785%) 47,091215% of his damage, in the example of 7000 damage 3296.38505 healed. Now, if you deal 203.61495 damage, his effective gain of life per hit is (healed - lost) 3092.7701 life.
The stuff in bold and the stuff in italics are the important ones.
So your plan is crushed to pieces, he heals to full life in a little over two hits.
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