View Full Version : Can somebody remind me again why desynching isnt considered BM?
Bulgarian
11-12-2006, 07:24
I consider it BM because you are exploiting a glitch. You turn invisible(which is never supposed to happen under any circumstances otherwise) on the map and are given an absolute advantage in a duel.
Yes, all characters can do it, and yes, it does take skill. That isnt the point. It isnt following the rules of the game. Thats like saying if you can rob a bank you deserve the money. Anyone can do it right? No... its not fair.
Give me a reason why that isnt BM. If I cant come up with a counter-arguement, ill consider it.
If a little desync ruins your pvp char then delete.
I consider it BM because you are exploiting a glitch. You turn invisible(which is never supposed to happen under any circumstances otherwise) on the map and are given an absolute advantage in a duel.
Yes, all characters can do it, and yes, it does take skill. That isnt the point. It isnt following the rules of the game. Thats like saying if you can rob a bank you deserve the money. Anyone can do it right? No... its not fair.
Give me a reason why that isnt BM. If I cant come up with a counter-arguement, ill consider it.
When you buy diablo II and diablo II: LoD, it doesn't come with a ****in rulebook of what is and what is not proper in pvp.
Cry cuz can't read desynch
dodobird
11-12-2006, 08:23
lol this sounds like a little pub game, the pvp forum is going way downhill.
Crazy Runner Guy
11-12-2006, 08:27
What 'rules'?
Exactly. There are only rules if the players consent to them. Otherwise, D2 PvP is a war of each against all.
crg
Mythatic
11-12-2006, 12:24
nothing is BM really, they are all items and skills provided by the game
Red or Purple pots are different stories....
Though there are certain rules in melee duels though.
Imbecile
11-12-2006, 13:42
I consider it BM because you are exploiting a glitch. You turn invisible(which is never supposed to happen under any circumstances otherwise) on the map and are given an absolute advantage in a duel.
Yes, all characters can do it, and yes, it does take skill. That isnt the point. It isnt following the rules of the game. Thats like saying if you can rob a bank you deserve the money. Anyone can do it right? No... its not fair.
Give me a reason why that isnt BM. If I cant come up with a counter-arguement, ill consider it.
Sit down, please ;\
I think it's not BM. Why would it be? Every1 can do it, but it takes some time to learn it affectively.
The only rules are those proposed by players and or posted, required under Bnet Eula/Rules.
PvP is anything goes. Juv or health pot and use any means (within the game) to win. Scripts and such are covered under Blizzard rules.
I think it's not BM. Why would it be? Every1 can do it, but it takes some time to learn it affectively.
I'm of the opinion "everything goes, and if you don't like how someone duels then don't duel them". However I think the reason desynch is BM is because it is not an intended part of the game. Skills and Items are ALL intended to be a part of the game, as such any skill and any item should be allowed (but I understand why in some duels people agree not to use certain items).
Desynch however is not something that is intended to be a part of the game, and relies on abusing the hardware in the servers rather than using items contained in the software of the game. I think if anything is BM then desynch is a lot more BM than any item combination or skill useage.
But - if you don't like someone desynching - just don't duel them...
mainaman
11-12-2006, 15:26
I'm of the opinion "everything goes, and if you don't like how someone duels then don't duel them". However I think the reason desynch is BM is because it is not an intended part of the game. Skills and Items are ALL intended to be a part of the game, as such any skill and any item should be allowed (but I understand why in some duels people agree not to use certain items).
Desynch however is not something that is intended to be a part of the game, and relies on abusing the hardware in the servers rather than using items contained in the software of the game. I think if anything is BM then desynch is a lot more BM than any item combination or skill useage.
But - if you don't like someone desynching - just don't duel them...well are you saying that desynch is more bm than 2 wisps+tgod+stacked res. or massive slow+decrepify?
If you know how you can actually read desynch pretty esily , but you cant do anythyng against ppl that bm you with items/skills
Bulgarian
11-12-2006, 15:29
What 'rules'?
I'm of the opinion "everything goes, and if you don't like how someone duels then don't duel them". However I think the reason desynch is BM is because it is not an intended part of the game. Skills and Items are ALL intended to be a part of the game, as such any skill and any item should be allowed (but I understand why in some duels people agree not to use certain items).
Desynch however is not something that is intended to be a part of the game, and relies on abusing the hardware in the servers rather than using items contained in the software of the game. I think if anything is BM then desynch is a lot more BM than any item combination or skill useage.
But - if you don't like someone desynching - just don't duel them...
Rules as in what was intended part of the game. The way I said it was clear to me. It may have not been to you, read PFS's post.
well are you saying that desynch is more bm than 2 wisps+tgod+stacked res. or massive slow+decrepify?
If you know how you can actually read desynch pretty esily , but you cant do anythyng against ppl that bm you with items/skills
Read what he said, "(but I understand why in some duels people agree not to use certain items)". I agree with that as well.
If a little desync ruins your pvp char then delete.
Spam.
When you buy diablo II and diablo II: LoD, it doesn't come with a ****in rulebook of what is and what is not proper in pvp.
Cry cuz can't read desynch
Read what PFS said.
lol this sounds like a little pub game, the pvp forum is going way downhill.
Im asking an honest question, tell me, how this is making the forum "go way downhill"?
Sit down, please ;\
Spam.
The only rules are those proposed by players and or posted, required under Bnet Eula/Rules.
PvP is anything goes. Juv or health pot and use any means (within the game) to win. Scripts and such are covered under Blizzard rules.
What are "Scripts and such" & "Blizzard rules"?
If you cant give me a valid reason, dont bother posting.
Heres a better reason.
Cause you can't really control it, are you really gonna frown and throw stones at a zon who just runs with some frw items.
What you suggest he do? dont use frw items, run in 4 yard intervals? Please..
Validation is a matter of opinion. Scripts = third party software hacks. Blizzard rules are those that you can find in the blizz Eula and official ettiquet posted on the bnet forums.
Bulgarian
11-12-2006, 15:52
Heres a reason.
It is not considered BM because the general community does not consider it BM.
And what are the reasons for why general community doesnt consider it BM?
And what are the reasons for why general community doesnt consider it BM?
That obviously is trivial as it differs from person to person, some may just believe it cause they friends do etc.
I edited with something less trivial.
Bulgarian
11-12-2006, 15:58
Heres a better reason.
Cause you can't really control it, are you really gonna frown and throw stones at a zon who just runs with some frw items.
What you suggest he do? dont use frw items, run in 4 yard intervals? Please..
Im aiming this discussion at those people who tell me that absorb is BM, and desynch isnt. What you just said can apply to absorb; people expect others not to use items to take advantage.
well are you saying that desynch is more bm than 2 wisps+tgod+stacked res. or massive slow+decrepify?
If you know how you can actually read desynch pretty esily , but you cant do anythyng against ppl that bm you with items/skills
Yes.
All the items and skills you mention are in the game and are intended to be a part of the game. Desynch is not an intended part of the game, and is a result of the mechanics of the hardware rather than the mechanics of the program itself.
Your example - to complain that a character cannot be beaten by your primary skill - i.e. your primary PvP premise is ruined by an equipment choice of the other person seems bizarre to me. You knew that was a possibility when you made the char. Of course you can duel people on various conditions, however in Pub games...
Which seems to be a more reasonable request of your opponent:
1. "You can't manipulate the servers to make your character invisible, your location unknown and your hammers invisible"
2. "you can't use these well known items that are intended to be in the game because that would be unfair on my build which has a very obvious weakness that I was well aware of when I made it."
Again - I am of the opinion that if you don't like it then don't duel the person - nobody is making you. Most duels take place in some form of rules - no pots, no IM, etc etc. I am just surprised that desynch is not viewed as BM by people who view use of items within the game as BM.
I just don't see how anyone can view (ab)using things internal to the game could possibly be viewed as more BM than (ab)using conditions EXTERNAL to the game.
Uncle_Mike
11-12-2006, 16:38
Yes.
All the items and skills you mention are in the game and are intended to be a part of the game. Desynch is not an intended part of the game, and is a result of the mechanics of the hardware rather than the mechanics of the program itself.
Your example - to complain that a character cannot be beaten by your primary skill - i.e. your primary PvP premise is ruined by an equipment choice of the other person seems bizarre to me. You knew that was a possibility when you made the char. Of course you can duel people on various conditions, however in Pub games...
Which seems to be a more reasonable request of your opponent:
1. "You can't manipulate the servers to make your character invisible, your location unknown and your hammers invisible"
2. "you can't use these well known items that are intended to be in the game because that would be unfair on my build which has a very obvious weakness that I was well aware of when I made it."
Again - I am of the opinion that if you don't like it then don't duel the person - nobody is making you. Most duels take place in some form of rules - no pots, no IM, etc etc. I am just surprised that desynch is not viewed as BM by people who view use of items within the game as BM.
I just don't see how anyone can view (ab)using things internal to the game could possibly be viewed as more BM than (ab)using conditions EXTERNAL to the game.
hammer is not the only spell that gets invisible...there is no need to mention it here, amazons desynch, ww desynches (whether you like it or not you desynch on a barb) and so do paladins, it is a part of the game whether intended or not...
I consider desynch gm.
Mike
Bulgarian
11-12-2006, 16:43
hammer is not the only spell that gets invisible...there is no need to mention it here, amazons desynch, ww desynches (whether you like it or not you desynch on a barb) and so do paladins, it is a part of the game whether intended or not...
I consider desynch gm.
Mike
The fact that many different characters can do it is irrelevant. It is part of the game because you are manipulating servers and not the software like PFS has already stated. I really dont think that blizzard intended for the character to disapear after a certain amount of FRW. I do think that blizzard intended for characters to use absorb, although for most of you, its unfair. Maybe thats just me?
hammer is not the only spell that gets invisible...there is no need to mention it here, amazons desynch, ww desynches (whether you like it or not you desynch on a barb) and so do paladins, it is a part of the game whether intended or not...
I consider desynch gm.
Mike
To clarify - I am fully aware that hammers are not the only spell that is invisible when desynched. Hammers are a common one though - which is why I mentioned it.
And I agree it is a part of the game. However it is not intended to be a part of the game.
On the other hand dual wisps+tgod+stacked res and massive slow+decrep are intended to be a part of the game.
And yet many people say the items/skills are BM, while manipulating the servers is somehow not.
I can't see any way possible for someone to claim that an intended part of the game is BM while also claiming an effect caused by manipulating the servers of the game is not BM.
Now - to reiterare - I don't believe in BM - just find other people to duel, or between you and the person you are dueling agree on a set of rules. I get acused of BM all the time with my LLD HF Zealot - and think "I am using a well known skill with well known effects - how is that BM". My point in this discussion is that I can't believe that there are people who feel that slow+decrep or wisps+tgods+stack are BM while they don't feel that manipulating the game servers is BM.
mainaman
11-12-2006, 17:05
Yes.
All the items and skills you mention are in the game and are intended to be a part of the game. Desynch is not an intended part of the game, and is a result of the mechanics of the hardware rather than the mechanics of the program itself.
Your example - to complain that a character cannot be beaten by your primary skill - i.e. your primary PvP premise is ruined by an equipment choice of the other person seems bizarre to me. You knew that was a possibility when you made the char. Of course you can duel people on various conditions, however in Pub games...
Which seems to be a more reasonable request of your opponent:
1. "You can't manipulate the servers to make your character invisible, your location unknown and your hammers invisible"
2. "you can't use these well known items that are intended to be in the game because that would be unfair on my build which has a very obvious weakness that I was well aware of when I made it."
Again - I am of the opinion that if you don't like it then don't duel the person - nobody is making you. Most duels take place in some form of rules - no pots, no IM, etc etc. I am just surprised that desynch is not viewed as BM by people who view use of items within the game as BM.
I just don't see how anyone can view (ab)using things internal to the game could possibly be viewed as more BM than (ab)using conditions EXTERNAL to the game.
actually i dont see your reasoning of why desynch is bm? when people say desynch they inevitably refer to hammerdins and their dmg being unblockable makes them hated oponents.
Desynch can be read and one can learn how to play aginst desynchers,
also i hope you are aware that other chars can desynch just as easy right?
Example: Barbs, zons, shape shifters , id dare guess ww sins can desynch too, any other paladin that is not hammerdin can desynch too ofc.
basically we have plethora of desynch-able chars in the game so does that mean that they shouldnt be played becasue of the glitch?
PS im sorry i didnt see that my argument was pointed out already.
actually i dont see your reasoning of why desynch is bm? when people say desynch they inevitably refer to hammerdins and their dmg being unblockable makes them hated oponents.
Desynch can be read and one can learn how to play aginst desynchers,
also i hope you are aware that other chars can desynch just as easy right?
Example: Barbs, zons, shape shifters , id dare guess ww sins can desynch too, any other paladin that is not hammerdin can desynch too ofc.
basically we have plethora of desynch-able chars in the game so does that mean that they shouldnt be played becasue of the glitch?
PS im sorry i didnt see that my argument was pointed out already.
NP - and as I replied to the previous arguement - I know there are other chars that desynch - I used hammers as an example as they are some of the most common.
And again - I do not believe in BM - if someone does something you don't like then put up or get out - I just find it astounding that some people who do believe that use of skills and items intended to be in the game is BM while they do not think that manipulating the servers is BM. If someone believes in BM AT ALL then there is no logical reason they could possibly have for thinking that manipulating flaws in the servers is not BM when they think skills/items are BM.
Uncle_Mike
11-12-2006, 17:20
The fact that many different characters can do it is irrelevant. It is part of the game because you are manipulating servers and not the software like PFS has already stated. I really dont think that blizzard intended for the character to disapear after a certain amount of FRW. I do think that blizzard intended for characters to use absorb, although for most of you, its unfair. Maybe thats just me?
The fact that many chars can do that is relevant. Plus on some chars you cannot not-desynch such as ww barbs - long wws desynch whether you like it or not, it is not a matter of using charge or mass frw on items. Desynch can be taken care of while mass abs cannot (if you play an elemental char). Assuming that duels are to be a challenge I see no point in negating someone else's dmg.
MIke
mainaman
11-12-2006, 17:26
NP - and as I replied to the previous arguement - I know there are other chars that desynch - I used hammers as an example as they are some of the most common.
And again - I do not believe in BM - if someone does something you don't like then put up or get out - I just find it astounding that some people who do believe that use of skills and items intended to be in the game is BM while they do not think that manipulating the servers is BM. If someone believes in BM AT ALL then there is no logical reason they could possibly have for thinking that manipulating flaws in the servers is not BM when they think skills/items are BM.
i see your point now. I personally can accept certain lvl of BM considered items ,as for desynch i dont care.
I use BvC mainly, and only bm that can be applyed against him is massive slow + decrepify, which on tis own calls for me to use diff char that takes care of business.
The fact that many chars can do that is relevant.
Many chars can use wisps+tgods+stack... and some peopel think that is BM.
Desynch can be taken care of while mass abs cannot (if you play an elemental char). Assuming that duels are to be a challenge I see no point in negating someone else's dmg.
MIke
This is like saying a BVC should not use an Enigma against a Bowazon as it defeats the whole point of ranged attacks. Or should not use Howl against a necros summons. There are a lot of builds out there that can't do PvP in no small part because of various gear choices - why a special exception for elemental characters?
There are several things that are unintended that have made huge impacts on how PvP is played. Desynching is something I believe would be incredibly difficult to fix as seeing how devoted Blizzard is to D2. But that's besides the point. Using the reason that 'Abusing the servers' is hardly an argument. I'm quite sure it's a stretch to assume the Blizzard EULA or wherever that was taken from isn't talking about how it's wrong to abuse the servers in order to win at PvP.
Again:
What 'rules'?
This is all directed to the Original poster, btw. So far the OP has failed to back up anything with tangible or even credible proof, rather, I was directed to read another post by another poster to counter my question.
There are several things that are unintended that have made huge impacts on how PvP is played. Desynching is something I believe would be incredibly difficult to fix as seeing how devoted Blizzard is to D2. But that's besides the point. Using the reason that 'Abusing the servers' is hardly an argument. I'm quite sure it's a stretch to assume the Blizzard EULA or wherever that was taken from isn't talking about how it's wrong to abuse the servers in order to win at PvP.
This is all directed to the Original poster, btw. So far the OP has failed to back up anything with tangible or even credible proof, rather, I was directed to read another post by another poster to counter my question.
I know you have directed at the OP - but if I can try to answer:
He is not necessilary (spelling?) saying desynch is BM. More asking how someone can consider use of intended skills and items as being BM while not considering manipulating the servers as BM.
Well, in his initial post he states: 'I consider it BM because you're exploiting a glitch'. He wasn't originally stating that it was against the 'rules' [which is what he decided to say after quoting me]. He was stating that it was BM [which has no set meaning, that's what I was originally trying to get at], but then he quotes me and says it's against the rules... so I'm asking, what rules?
If you're going to play the 'exploiting a glitch' card, then you'd have to consider 99% of PvP'ers BM due to the use of dupes. And unlike desync'ing the servers by moving around really fast, Blizzard is quite explicit about dupes being a no-no (hence Ruststorm and runes poofing).
wabba wabba
11-12-2006, 18:28
If you're going to play the 'exploiting a glitch' card, then you'd have to consider 99% of PvP'ers BM due to the use of dupes. And unlike desync'ing the servers by moving around really fast, Blizzard is quite explicit about dupes being a no-no (hence Ruststorm and runes poofing).
exactly.
If you are going to say that exploiting glitches is bm, then duping must be bm (Most dupe methods rely on lagging the server; not too different that how desynch works, imho). That being said, essentially every enigma, hoto, and even your ber'd shako is bm.
Uncle_Mike
11-12-2006, 18:34
This is like saying a BVC should not use an Enigma against a Bowazon as it defeats the whole point of ranged attacks. Or should not use Howl against a necros summons. There are a lot of builds out there that can't do PvP in no small part because of various gear choices - why a special exception for elemental characters?
And the point was? Does enigma negate amazon's dmg? It kind of evens things out in fact IMO. All I say is it is not much of an achievement to win vs elemental chars with max res/max absorb. Useful in bm, but pointless in 1 vs 1 duels plus requires no skill.
Mike
tmd turka
11-12-2006, 19:46
And the point was? Does enigma negate amazon's dmg? It kind of evens things out in fact IMO. All I say is it is not much of an achievement to win vs elemental chars with max res/max absorb. Useful in bm, but pointless in 1 vs 1 duels plus requires no skill.
Mike
If you really look back on this game barbs were never ment to beat zons. At some point you can tell Blizzard made an attempt to create a rock, paper, scissors pvp system but they never finished it. What they did do was create runewords with the intention of balancing the game. What happened was massive dupes and blizzard never readjusted their approach.
Back to the point. OP I think I made a thread awhile ago about Charge+vigor being BM and most agreed it was not. BM is determined by the community if anything and most will say anything goes. If you want GM duels go to private games. Just about everyone here will tell you pubs are where to find the dregs of the D2 community.
Bulgarian
11-12-2006, 20:46
Well, in his initial post he states: 'I consider it BM because you're exploiting a glitch'. He wasn't originally stating that it was against the 'rules' [which is what he decided to say after quoting me]. He was stating that it was BM [which has no set meaning, that's what I was originally trying to get at], but then he quotes me and says it's against the rules... so I'm asking, what rules?
The reason why I directed you at PFS is because he said it how I would have said it. I really dont know how much clearer it has to be made. When I say rules I mean what blizzard put into the game, how they intended us to play the game. In this case using FRW. Blizzard did not intend us to disapear after a certain amount. For example, single player(aside from the bugs in the current patch) is how blizzard intended us to play the game. Desynching is only an online issue which is why if you were to put a couple hundred FRW on a character in single player they wouldnt disapear. I thought this was implied.
And yes, in my original post I did say it was against the rules. But, by 'glitch' I ment manipulating the server.
I consider it BM because you are exploiting a glitch. You turn invisible(which is never supposed to happen under any circumstances otherwise) on the map and are given an absolute advantage in a duel.
Again, items or skills cannot have manners. Think before you act. Also, each and everyone has an opinion of their own. If you cannot bear with it, there is no one saying you have to. You can always join some random league which bans desynch.
Yes, all characters can do it, and yes, it does take skill. That isnt the point. It isnt following the rules of the game. Thats like saying if you can rob a bank you deserve the money. Anyone can do it right? No... its not fair.
But then again is it fair that the American soldiers go around totally destroying cities in the East with a pathetic excuse of "preventing terrorism" or "revenge", whereas they are most likely looking for oil? Is it fair that a lot of people have to live in poverty whereas certain individuals never need to do a thing to earn their living? It's not, but that's just how it is. You cannot compare reality with a game. And you cannot say what's fair. Not until every single individual agrees with it, which will never happen since it will totally wreck the individuality of humans, making us nothing but a mass of people who agree about everything. A single aspect of being humane is personal opinion. You have yours, I have mine and we do not necessarily have to agree.
Give me a reason why that isnt BM. If I cant come up with a counter-arguement, ill consider it.
The abbreviation "BM" literally means "Bad Manners". Now, can lifeless things have manners? No they cannot. So this is already enough to wreck your argument into pieces. If you are saying that the people who abuse the fact that Blizzard cannot use top-notch PCs to maintain the servers 24/7, then yes it just might count as bad manners, however shouldn't you then be whining to Blizzard rather than us? Of course you will now counter-attack with an argument that "bad manners" is a synonym of "not allowed", which by the way is not true. Even so, "not allowed", that's again up to oneself to decide.
You cannot force your rules on someone you do not know. Of course you could hunt down each and every player of Diablo II: Lord of Destruction and use force to enforce your opinion and rules on them. But do you really want it to be like that?
I would say that you are trying to seek for something that's "perfect". However, there's always the fact that "perfect" is different to different people and because of this there is no absolute "perfection". It's just plain impossible to achieve. You can say that you would want to live in a world with no wars and nothing negative, but in the end that would just make you inhumane as you would lack the ability to think in a negative way and you would lack negative experiences, thus making you even more imperfect than you already are.
Also, you seem to have a habit of saying that it's "Bad Manners" because it was not meant to be so. Tell me, where all the runewords meant to be as they are? Were the ubers meant to be as easy as they are? Was the Annihilus meant to be so common? Was the 32020 intended to be so common? Were all the high runes intended to be common? Is the PvP environment currently just as Blizzard intended it to be? If you got more than a single "yes", then you are pretty damn good.
And no, Charge is by far not "manipulating the server", as manipulating would require for it to be a living thing, which it clearly is not. It's just that the servermachines are not perfect. And again, if you want to whine about anything that's not perfect, you are pathetic or a perfectionist. In the case of the former, there's nothing to do except to try to change your attitude. In the case of the latter, you should think about contacting a person specialized in neurological disorders.
Flayed One
11-12-2006, 21:03
eeerm... Olba.... you do know that BM is an abbreviation of "bad mannered", right?...:tongue:
eeerm... Olba.... you do know that BM is an abbreviation of "bad mannered", right?...:tongue:
Manners or mannered. Does not matter, it still requires for one to be a living existence, since only living existences that think for themselves can have manners.
If you hit your head on a rock, are you going to shout that the rock is BM?
Flayed One
11-12-2006, 21:08
it doesn't require things to be alive - it requires them to be alive, or done by people, and desynching last time I checked was done by people...:evil:
it doesn't require things to be alive - it requires them to be alive, or done by people, and desynching last time I checked was done by people...:evil:
Actually not. The usage of the skill "Charge" is done by people, the desynching is not. The actual process in which it turns into desynch is done by the servercomputers, which are not humans or done by them.
So you are saying that an activity can have any kind of "manners"? Hah, funny. You can say that an activity is not "proper" or "good", but you cannot say that the activity "lacks manners", which being bad mannered literally refers to. This is due to the fact that an activity does not live or think for itself.'
In the end, everything and everyone is bad mannered if you look from the right angle. So what's the catch?
Bulgarian
11-12-2006, 21:20
Again, items or skills cannot have manners. Think before you act. Also, each and everyone has an opinion of their own. If you cannot bear with it, there is no one saying you have to. You can always join some random league which bans desynch.
But then again is it fair that the American soldiers go around totally destroying cities in the East with a pathetic excuse of "preventing terrorism" or "revenge", whereas they are most likely looking for oil? Is it fair that a lot of people have to live in poverty whereas certain individuals never need to do a thing to earn their living? It's not, but that's just how it is. You cannot compare reality with a game. And you cannot say what's fair. Not until every single individual agrees with it, which will never happen since it will totally wreck the individuality of humans, making us nothing but a mass of people who agree about everything. A single aspect of being humane is personal opinion. You have yours, I have mine and we do not necessarily have to agree.
The abbreviation "BM" literally means "Bad Manners". Now, can lifeless things have manners? No they cannot. So this is already enough to wreck your argument into pieces. If you are saying that the people who abuse the fact that Blizzard cannot use top-notch PCs to maintain the servers 24/7, then yes it just might count as bad manners, however shouldn't you then be whining to Blizzard rather than us? Of course you will now counter-attack with an argument that "bad manners" is a synonym of "not allowed", which by the way is not true. Even so, "not allowed", that's again up to oneself to decide.
You cannot force your rules on someone you do not know. Of course you could hunt down each and every player of Diablo II: Lord of Destruction and use force to enforce your opinion and rules on them. But do you really want it to be like that?
I would say that you are trying to seek for something that's "perfect". However, there's always the fact that "perfect" is different to different people and because of this there is no absolute "perfection". It's just plain impossible to achieve. You can say that you would want to live in a world with no wars and nothing negative, but in the end that would just make you inhumane as you would lack the ability to think in a negative way and you would lack negative experiences, thus making you even more imperfect than you already are.
Also, you seem to have a habit of saying that it's "Bad Manners" because it was not meant to be so. Tell me, where all the runewords meant to be as they are? Were the ubers meant to be as easy as they are? Was the Annihilus meant to be so common? Was the 32020 intended to be so common? Were all the high runes intended to be common? Is the PvP environment currently just as Blizzard intended it to be? If you got more than a single "yes", then you are pretty damn good.
And no, Charge is by far not "manipulating the server", as manipulating would require for it to be a living thing, which it clearly is not. It's just that the servermachines are not perfect. And again, if you want to whine about anything that's not perfect, you are pathetic or a perfectionist. In the case of the former, there's nothing to do except to try to change your attitude. In the case of the latter, you should think about contacting a person specialized in neurological disorders.
Am I offending you? Why are you getting defensive? Re-write that with less sarcasm.
1. Im not forcing my opinion on everyone.
2. When I say it I mean the act of desynching. Read please.
Bad mannered =/= Lack of manners
Lack of manners can be cause but not knowing the ettiquets. Bad manners is bluntly not following the ettiquets.
Bad mannered =/= Lack of manners
Lack of manners can be cause but not knowing the ettiquets. Bad manners is bluntly not following the ettiquets.
Yet those people who do not know the ettiquets are called "bad mannered" due to their "lack of manners". Even those people who ignore the ettiquets are said to be "bad mannered" and they have a "lack of manners".
Am I offending you? Why are you getting defensive? Re-write that with less sarcasm.
Sarcasm? Defensive? Whatever makes you tick.
1. Im not forcing my opinion on everyone.
Then why are you struggling, trying to prove that you are right and everyone else is wrong?
2. When I say it I mean the act of desynching. Read please.
Aka charging. Which is just using a single skill. The actual desynch process is independent of the player.
Your "Read please." is probably the most pathetic argument so far. You really expect me to read the same damn thing over and over again when I already know all that you can possibly say from previous arguments of the same kind?
Yet those people who do not know the ettiquets are called "bad mannered" due to their "lack of manners". Even those people who ignore the ettiquets are said to be "bad mannered" and they have a "lack of manners".
Then you agree with me that they are not the same?
Dont generalise when striving for perfection :)
Flayed One
11-12-2006, 21:38
an activity can be mannered or bad mannered. you're not a native english speaker... neither am I, but I know that an activity can be mannered, and you don't...:tongue:
the fact that by "desynching" I meant the act of causing a desynch AKA for example charging I belived to be obvious. If it wasn't it is now...:evil:
Bulgarian
11-12-2006, 21:39
Yet those people who do not know the ettiquets are called "bad mannered" due to their "lack of manners". Even those people who ignore the ettiquets are said to be "bad mannered" and they have a "lack of manners".
Sarcasm? Defensive? Whatever makes you tick.
Then why are you struggling, trying to prove that you are right and everyone else is wrong?
Aka charging. Which is just using a single skill. The actual desynch process is independent of the player.
Your "Read please." is probably the most pathetic argument so far. You really expect me to read the same damn thing over and over again when I already know all that you can possibly say from previous arguments of the same kind?
Im not struggling to prove everyone wrong, godamnit. Im asking people (in specific those who say that absorb is bm) to tell me why they believe that desynch isnt bm.
"Read please" Isnt an arguement, its telling you to read because so far nobody has corrected me except you. There isnt anything wrong with what I said. Even if there is, you are correcting me on how I wrote it, and not on what. You obviously understand what I am saying, so cut the crap and stop wasting your time.
When I say "desynch" or "absorb" I mean it as in the action of doing it.
There are nothing wrong with my arguements.
3. Im not whining.
Dennis_KoreanGuy
11-12-2006, 22:01
Well I'm not going to say desynching is out of players' control, because though many desynch unknownst to themselves on d2, others strive for it and try their best to desynch.
"Why is desynch not considered BM?"
hmm, well I'm not going to ask the definition of gm/bm as it has been asked so many times before.
This is going to be interesting to keep an eye, maybe mr. og al can convince meh desynch is bm. but whether its gm/bm, I'm gonna desynch all I want. haha
mainaman
11-12-2006, 22:33
Im not struggling to prove everyone wrong, godamnit. Im asking people (in specific those who say that absorb is bm) to tell me why they believe that desynch isnt bm.
"Read please" Isnt an arguement, its telling you to read because so far nobody has corrected me except you. There isnt anything wrong with what I said. Even if there is, you are correcting me on how I wrote it, and not on what. You obviously understand what I am saying, so cut the crap and stop wasting your time.
When I say "desynch" or "absorb" I mean it as in the action of doing it.
There are nothing wrong with my arguements.
3. Im not whining.you might as well stop botering with CeOlba the whole forum knows exactly what he is and rarely ppl bother argue with him most of the time its mockery ,but he don't understand it ...
The reason why I directed you at PFS is because he said it how I would have said it. I really dont know how much clearer it has to be made. When I say rules I mean what blizzard put into the game, how they intended us to play the game. In this case using FRW. Blizzard did not intend us to disapear after a certain amount. For example, single player(aside from the bugs in the current patch) is how blizzard intended us to play the game. Desynching is only an online issue which is why if you were to put a couple hundred FRW on a character in single player they wouldnt disapear. I thought this was implied.
And yes, in my original post I did say it was against the rules. But, by 'glitch' I ment manipulating the server.
How Blizzard intended us to play the game.. That's a bold statement, seeing as there have been numerous patches, fixes and other little things that have changed how the entire PvP scene had been played. So single player is considered to be the ideal scenario when determining how Blizzard wanted this game to turn out? It's fairly obvious that D2 was never meant to be PvP based, but saying that single player is exactly how D2 was supposed to be is funny.
Yes, single player is exactly how D2 is supposed to be. Offline.
You're ignoring the fact that online play is a completely different monster compared to offline play. If you put a hundred++++ FRW on a single player character how do you know they aren't disappearing? There is no server, no other people to see exactly what's going on. It's simply the inability of the server to keep up with the massive amount of FRW being put on a single character - "EXPLOITING" such a thing is exceedingly commonplace now. Indeed, even on multiplayer your character looks and acts exactly how they would on single player, even with 200+ FRW. The only difference is what the other players see.
You're asking why this shouldn't be considered BM - Why should it? Unless there is some golden book out there that lists rules that EACH AND EVER ROOM IN WHICH D2 PVP TAKES PLACE should follow, then the whole term BM is bull****.
BM is a myth. It's simply things that people come up with in pubs or against pubs in 1v1 in order to 'balance' [aka give themselves a better chance of winning] the matchup. The only time anything would be 'BM' would be in a controlled dueling environment, such as rules that your opponent would agree on, i.e. a dueling league of some sort.
Seriously, where is Speedlander? That guy made a reputation for coming into threads like these and ripping apart whatever theories were made.
Dennis_KoreanGuy
11-12-2006, 23:40
Seriously, where is Speedlander? That guy made a reputation for coming into threads like these and ripping apart whatever theories were made.
Ye, I miss him too. I see his hyb sin once in a blue moon in pub though. :tongue:
To an extent blizz has allowed desynch on paladins. In .10 they removed the automatic swing that took place at the end of charge, allowing them to just charge around.
Bulgarian
12-12-2006, 01:15
How Blizzard intended us to play the game.. That's a bold statement, seeing as there have been numerous patches, fixes and other little things that have changed how the entire PvP scene had been played. So single player is considered to be the ideal scenario when determining how Blizzard wanted this game to turn out? It's fairly obvious that D2 was never meant to be PvP based, but saying that single player is exactly how D2 was supposed to be is funny.
Yes, single player is exactly how D2 is supposed to be. Offline.
You're ignoring the fact that online play is a completely different monster compared to offline play. If you put a hundred++++ FRW on a single player character how do you know they aren't disappearing? There is no server, no other people to see exactly what's going on. It's simply the inability of the server to keep up with the massive amount of FRW being put on a single character - "EXPLOITING" such a thing is exceedingly commonplace now. Indeed, even on multiplayer your character looks and acts exactly how they would on single player, even with 200+ FRW. The only difference is what the other players see.
You're asking why this shouldn't be considered BM - Why should it? Unless there is some golden book out there that lists rules that EACH AND EVER ROOM IN WHICH D2 PVP TAKES PLACE should follow, then the whole term BM is bull****.
BM is a myth. It's simply things that people come up with in pubs or against pubs in 1v1 in order to 'balance' [aka give themselves a better chance of winning] the matchup. The only time anything would be 'BM' would be in a controlled dueling environment, such as rules that your opponent would agree on, i.e. a dueling league of some sort.
Seriously, where is Speedlander? That guy made a reputation for coming into threads like these and ripping apart whatever theories were made.
Yes, everytime blizzard has come out with new a patch their intention of how the game is supposed to be played has changed. Maybe I was a little vague, even though i did say "(aside from all the bugs in the current patch)". We are now talking about how 1.11b should be played, not just "the game".
Yes, single player is how d2 was meant to be played offline. But it is very similar with how it should be played online as well. I was using that as an example of the basics(skills, stats, characters). Yes, there are differences, but what is the point of making that statement if what we are talking about (FRW) is the same, is it not?
It would be impossible to tell if you disapear in single player with a certain amount of FRW, so maybe I mislead you there. But asking me whether I know whether I would disapear brings up a whole new question. You are now asking me whether desynching is caused by the server or by the game itself. Is it not a proven fact that desynching is only online?
If you understand how the game is supposed to be played online(blizzard's intention/ rules) and that desynching is caused by a server and not by the game itself then I dont see why we are argueing. I believe that it is 'BM' because it is breaking these rules. I believe that something that breaks rules is worse then using items provided by the game.
HappyAssassin
12-12-2006, 05:35
Seriously, where is Speedlander? That guy made a reputation for coming into threads like these and ripping apart whatever theories were made.
The great thing about that was that he played a WWsin, which is very easy to BM, and he managed to beat every BMer who dueled him. He didn't kill much, he just MB'd them to the point of frustration and they'd leave.
The sin forum misses his advice too.
Yes, everytime blizzard has come out with new a patch their intention of how the game is supposed to be played has changed. Maybe I was a little vague, even though i did say "(aside from all the bugs in the current patch)". We are now talking about how 1.11b should be played, not just "the game".
Well, maybe it was their intention to make Charge like that? Ever thought of that?
It would be impossible to tell if you disapear in single player with a certain amount of FRW, so maybe I mislead you there. But asking me whether I know whether I would disapear brings up a whole new question. You are now asking me whether desynching is caused by the server or by the game itself. Is it not a proven fact that desynching is only online?
Well, it's caused by the server, so as long as there is a server, there will be desynch. Isn't that the logical outcome?
If you understand how the game is supposed to be played online(blizzard's intention/ rules) and that desynching is caused by a server and not by the game itself then I dont see why we are argueing. I believe that it is 'BM' because it is breaking these rules. I believe that something that breaks rules is worse then using items provided by the game.
Sorry, but no one can ever truly say that they understand one's intentions if they are not that individual themselves. The can try explaining it, they can visualize it, they can do this and that, but they will never, ever reach total understanding of the original intentions, specially when it's something as big as a game with hundreds or thousands of people behind them who are most working for money, not the enjoyment of making something for someone else.
Can you please make a small .txt file about these "Rules" that you keep talking about it and copy-paste it here? Just out of interest on how you see that the game "should be".
Bulgarian
12-12-2006, 06:53
Can you please make a small .txt file about these "Rules" that you keep talking about it and copy-paste it here? Just out of interest on how you see that the game "should be".
The "Rules". (http://battle.net/diablo2exp/)
And the point was? Does enigma negate amazon's dmg? It kind of evens things out in fact IMO. All I say is it is not much of an achievement to win vs elemental chars with max res/max absorb. Useful in bm, but pointless in 1 vs 1 duels plus requires no skill.
Mike
So?
Whose choice was it to make a character whose entire damage can be completely negated through use of legitmite and well known items?
There are lots of characters out there that are unsuited to PvP, or whose effictiveness in PvP can be nerfed by gear choices - for example WW Druids and Enigma - although it is possible for them to win this becomes MUCH harder when their opponent can tele and then ranged attack them. And some builds that are unsuited to PvP altogether - like Summon Druid - Is using howl on a druids summons BM? It sure negates them. Ditto Necro Summoners - Howl ok there? It completely negates their build - but few would call it BM.
I do find it truely bizarre that you believe that the use of items that were quite obviously intended to be used in the game is BM, while for some reason you believe that abusing a shortcoming in the servers to make your character invisible (unless you are very predictible or the opponent has mind reading skills) and in some cases makes hammerdrins/bonernecro attacks invisible is somehow not BM.
I still don't get how people who do believe in BM can think item/skills are BM while abusing shortcomings in the server is no BM.
Now - I know some builds desynch - and it is not always delibrate, however in many of the cases where people do desynch they do it on purpose - desynch hammers, desynch charger/other melee paladin, IBS, Long WW etc etc. These are tatics/builds that are intended to use/abuse desynch, and the people doing it know full well what they are doing.
Again - I don't believe in BM, and feel the only item/skill/tatic limits should be those agreed by the people dueling if they decide to limit themselves to balance up the duel a little.
*sigh*
Dueling ( IIRC) = for fun
Where's the fun ( on both sides ofc) when its not an even(ish) duel?
The "Rules". (http://battle.net/diablo2exp/)
Where are the rules on that link?
dysench is not bm cuz it's counterable. Just shoot them with slow items or decrp them and they can try dysench with that kind of speed.
invisible hammer is kinda bm, but hey u know the hammer path so u can try to avoid it by staying far away from the hammerdin.
If u want to say who dysench as bm, i would have to say necro is bm.
d2 is a imba game cuz blizzard doesnt care about it anymore.
*sigh*
Dueling ( IIRC) = for fun
Where's the fun ( on both sides ofc) when its not an even(ish) duel?
the fun is to pking someone.
manner duel is only fun when dueling with friends, verses public u gotta bring all dirty tricks u got otherwise u will get murdered; this is just how it is. Otherwise, u just not duel them.
No.
I play in pubbies about 20% of my duel time. I can count the times I stooped to the pub levels on my hands.
You dont need to do that , either find a new game, or get more skilled.
mainaman
12-12-2006, 21:00
No.
I play in pubbies about 20% of my duel time. I can count the times I stooped to the pub levels on my hands.
You dont need to do that , either find a new game, or get more skilled.I second that
dont have to bm to own pubs
man yesterday i was told that tgods is bm vs trapper using infinity merc, then the same guy came in with a hammerdin and soon enough stated that widowmaker is bm too...
Squelch button = teh hawt hax :)
I basicly only talk to ppl who can actually...talk :)
mainaman
12-12-2006, 21:09
Squelch button = teh hawt hax :)
I basicly only talk to ppl who can actually...talk :)yeah i started using it recently...
blobswannabe
12-12-2006, 23:00
Only newbies who suck complain about desynch. There's too much cheating(hacking,mods,etc) in this game for you to complain about a legit pk method.
Dennis_KoreanGuy
13-12-2006, 00:07
Well, maybe it was their intention to make Charge like that? Ever thought of that?
Tis a conspiracy! :shocked:
Only newbies who suck complain about desynch. There's too much cheating(hacking,mods,etc) in this game for you to complain about a legit pk method.
Not neccessarily only newbies, but arguing whether desynch is gm or bm is kinda pointless. It will probably differ to all, or all vs. Og Al in this case (:wink3: ) but rarely do I see a game such as D2 that maintains a decent amount of online players yet not cared enough by the server.
At the least, get rid of dupes every month or something, reset the goddamn ladder, maybe give us a damn to stay to this stupid game where it gets clearly pwnd by other games like GW WoW Everquest etc. etc.
Bulgarian
13-12-2006, 01:00
Where are the rules on that link?
I can tell you right now its not going to be titled "The Rules". So the proper reponce would be; depends on what your looking to know.
See, I still don't see where desynching is considered 'abusing' the server. Blizzard retains that term for other, bigger exploits such as duping/brute forcing [if even applicable]/etc.etc. You're taking that term and simply stretching it out so it encompasses something in the PvP scene, which makes no sense.
You're saying you consider it BM - being "BM" has NOTHING at all to do with Blizzards rules. It's not even considered breaking said rules. Where is the problem here?
I can tell you right now its not going to be titled "The Rules". So the proper reponce would be; depends on what your looking to know.
Yes, let's just all post random links with no practical application or explanation to add "validity" to our already flawed arguments. Good goin'
Bulgarian
13-12-2006, 05:32
See, I still don't see where desynching is considered 'abusing' the server. Blizzard retains that term for other, bigger exploits such as duping/brute forcing [if even applicable]/etc.etc. You're taking that term and simply stretching it out so it encompasses something in the PvP scene, which makes no sense.
You're saying you consider it BM - being "BM" has NOTHING at all to do with Blizzards rules. It's not even considered breaking said rules. Where is the problem here?
First off, lets see if we can agree on this; What is desynching? I cant go into details because, honestly, I dont know. From experience I believe desynching is the lagging or overloading of the server. If that is correct, and if FRW desynching only happens online, can you not assume(If not proven already) that mass FRW is overloading the server? If it is, then what doesnt make sense? Im not stretching anything, IF mass FRW makes the server lag, then it is the same as what dupers do.
As I've said before; I consider it BM in dueling because it is breaking these "rules". I consider the Arreat Summit the rulebook of diablo 2 because it tells you everything about the diablo 2 enviorment. Maybe I shouldnt be using the word "rules", now that I think about it "laws" seems like a better word. For example, Arreat Summit tells you if you have a certain amount of CB, all you have to do is plug it into an equation and you will figure out what the effects are supposed to be, as in real life with the laws of physics(not talking about CB IRL). Ill try and find where it has this written in Arreat Summit later, but if you can find somewhere in Arreat Summit which says that disappearing on the map after a certain amount of FRW in multiplayer 1.11b is completely normal, then I will stop right now.
Yes, let's just all post random links with no practical application or explanation to add "validity" to our already flawed arguments. Good goin'
Spam.
. . . . . .
Read what I just said.
You have already been reported for spam, I suggest you stop while you're ahead.
blobswannabe
13-12-2006, 06:56
Tis a conspiracy! :shocked:
Not neccessarily only newbies, but arguing whether desynch is gm or bm is kinda pointless. It will probably differ to all, or all vs. Og Al in this case (:wink3: ) but rarely do I see a game such as D2 that maintains a decent amount of online players yet not cared enough by the server.
At the least, get rid of dupes every month or something, reset the goddamn ladder, maybe give us a damn to stay to this stupid game where it gets clearly pwnd by other games like GW WoW Everquest etc. etc.
LoL no I don't wanna be blobs. I already pointed out I made this name to mock blobs who I thought was a fake at the time. Quit trying to throw those cheap insults at me. Duel me if you have any doubts.
First off, lets see if we can agree on this; What is desynching? I cant go into details because, honestly, I dont know. From experience I believe desynching is the lagging or overloading of the server. If that is correct, and if FRW desynching only happens online, can you not assume(If not proven already) that mass FRW is overloading the server? If it is, then what doesnt make sense? Im not stretching anything, IF mass FRW makes the server lag, then it is the same as what dupers do.
As I've said before; I consider it BM in dueling because it is breaking these "rules". I consider the Arreat Summit the rulebook of diablo 2 because it tells you everything about the diablo 2 enviorment. Maybe I shouldnt be using the word "rules", now that I think about it "laws" seems like a better word. For example, Arreat Summit tells you if you have a certain amount of CB, all you have to do is plug it into an equation and you will figure out what the effects are supposed to be, as in real life with the laws of physics(not talking about CB IRL). Ill try and find where it has this written in Arreat Summit later, but if you can find somewhere in Arreat Summit which says that disappearing on the map after a certain amount of FRW in multiplayer 1.11b is completely normal, then I will stop right now.
Read what I just said.
You have already been reported for spam, I suggest you stop while you're ahead.
OH NOZ, PRS NO RPRT 4 SPAMZ
I went through this thread looking for reasons desynching would be considered BM but I didn't find any.
I don't know how desynching works but, ironically, I seem to see it (pun) alot more in PVM than PVP and I'm going to accept it as part of the diabloII world because it isn't going away and it's natural (no 3rd party programs).
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