View Full Version : Paracyte wants to duel your barbs[USeast softcore Ladder]
Wolves get no respect.
And you people keeping on using Kiba and ink as the standards for wolves.
Why?
Useast wolves don't expect any favors.
Ask Olwe or Nature, two people who I know use wolves. On useast ladder, the only way you're getting a good duel is to go pub which means you have to be a dueler that can survive in a lot of situations.
And you know what? We survive and kill alot.
So much so that it's not uncommon for a friend to be called on so that once they finally kill us, they sit on our bodies so we can't kill them anymore.
This goes for alot of classes including BARBS!
To those who think barbs are the epitome of sword and shield dueling, please come to useast and duel us wolves.
Use enchant if you must and get your def up as high as you can. Get your widowmaker too if you feel that will help you out and then duel me.
Paracyte.
USeast Ladder
*remsee
If I don't respond, but I am online, try remsy or remc and we'll talk.
Not saying I will destroy you all, just saying that I will show that wolves aren't jokes.
mainaman
29-11-2006, 16:40
Wolves get no respect.
And you people keeping on using Kiba and ink as the standards for wolves.
Why?
Useast wolves don't expect any favors.
Ask Olwe or Nature, two people who I know use wolves. On useast ladder, the only way you're getting a good duel is to go pub which means you have to be a dueler that can survive in a lot of situations.
And you know what? We survive and kill alot.
So much so that it's not uncommon for a friend to be called on so that once they finally kill us, they sit on our bodies so we can't kill them anymore.
This goes for alot of classes including BARBS!
To those who think barbs are the epitome of sword and shield dueling, please come to useast and duel us wolves.
Use enchant if you must and get your def up as high as you can. Get your widowmaker too if you feel that will help you out and then duel me.
Paracyte.
USeast Ladder
*remsee
If I don't respond, but I am online, try remsy or remc and we'll talk.
Not saying I will destroy you all, just saying that I will show that wolves aren't jokes.ill duel you ,i don't have much time for d2 these days but ill try contact you tonight
YAY!
Look forward to it if I'm still online
Mainaman and I had some good duels and I think I made him a believer.
Anyone else want to have some fun, gm duels?
mainaman
29-11-2006, 19:36
you have nice ww druid man
gds, i wish there wasnt so much lag though
and i never said ww druids suck
but so far i met only 2 (assuming it wasnt you i met before) that are competitive enough
Yeah, you and your magic desynching ww barb. Wish I had one of those bad boys.
I'll keep the exploding mana attack trick between us:wink3:
Remsy, mind sharing youre ww's stats?
Josiphos
29-11-2006, 20:32
What's with all this good-natured getting along???!!!!
Makes me want to vomit!
Go Flame Wars!
What's with all this good-natured getting along???!!!!
Makes me want to vomit!
Go Flame Wars!
:wave: byebye.
I;d rather have the good mannered one.
stuslegend
30-11-2006, 05:35
LIEK ZO MA GAD , I WILL ea zay pee kay u remsy n e day
:rolleyes: :afro:
rem is good, just watch out for his 10k damg ravens
and i agree with u on the point that most east game are publics, and we gotta build our chars to suit all situations
got a new dueler on the way too :tongue: mabye two
I got a gold find dueler on the way.
Rabbitz: About to go to work so I can't do it now, I will put the stats up later though.
As I thought, this forum is full of useless pussies.
I invited all those barbs who keep on flaming wolf druids to come and duel my wolf if they're useast ladder and I only had 1 taker.
The rest of you really should just be quiet now unless you want to put your money where your mouth is.
As I thought, this forum is full of useless pussies.
I invited all those barbs who keep on flaming wolf druids to come and duel my wolf if they're useast ladder and I only had 1 taker.
The rest of you really should just be quiet now unless you want to put your money where your mouth is.
Now let's see.
I am on Europe SCNL, and I've already admit defeat versus Stoutewolf.
Luis quit.
MCM is on UsWest Non-Ladder. Go there and try him.
Morotsjos is on Europe Non-Ladder. Come here and try him.
If you cannot succeed to understand that most people play different realms from your own and mostly non-ladder, you shouldn't even bother. The only BvC that I know on these forums that plays on East Ladder is Mainaman. Others play on different realms and non-ladder.
You cannot expect everyone to be on your realm. And just because they are not, you are bad-mouthing them with no knowledge about their skills whatsoever, making you into a total fool in mine and everyone else's eyes.
Stop with it while you can.
Oh, he was banned. Thanks for that, Xircon. However, just deleting the cookies will allow you to browse the forums as a guest user.
Did Morotjos duel Stoutewolf already?
Did Morotjos duel Stoutewolf already?
Ages ago. However, the score was never heard. But judging from his speaking I would say he won most of them.
As I thought, this forum is full of useless pussies.
I invited all those barbs who keep on flaming wolf druids to come and duel my wolf if they're useast ladder and I only had 1 taker.
The rest of you really should just be quiet now unless you want to put your money where your mouth is.
I play West NL, otherwise you'd be dueling me. I also imagine there aren't too many East L ladder barbs here.
Edit: Oh zzz, he was banned.
stoutewolf
01-12-2006, 18:55
Ages ago. However, the score was never heard. But judging from his speaking I would say he won most of them.
he completely destroyed me there, although i might stand a better chance now with max block and a 3 range weapon :wink3:
blobswannabe
01-12-2006, 20:07
he completely destroyed me there, although i might stand a better chance now with max block and a 3 range weapon :wink3:
what did you expect? barbs can just tank a werewolf by wwing back and forth and hardly take any damage.
oneBlast
01-12-2006, 20:42
EDIT:
the blocking ones, yes...maybe.
Non block - eaten alive most of the time.
especially if they get "rabbie'd"
Either you attack him like mad and get pooned, or try too play a bit more def, and get poisoned :)
Played vs stoute, most of the time he won (stompz)
akumaxyz
01-12-2006, 20:43
i dont see how a ww barb will lose to a rabies/fury druid if he has more than 90% poison resist + stack
i dont see how a ww barb will lose to a rabies/fury druid if he has more than 90% poison resist + stack
It would probably have something to do with the faceful of fury that he'd be sucking up. It'd be a good duel to see a properly prepared wolf vs a properly prepared bvc, both played by experts in their class.
akumaxyz
01-12-2006, 20:53
the out come will be barb, why? because of how ww works
It would probably have something to do with the faceful of fury that he'd be sucking up. It'd be a good duel to see a properly prepared wolf vs a properly prepared bvc, both played by experts in their class.
Are you trying to say that morotsjos and stoutewolf are not experts with their classes?
EasternFangz
01-12-2006, 21:31
I can say that wolves will have a good chance from what I've seen in duel games.
Most wolves I see come into duels with two-handers and hope to land the one massive hit in before they get killed.
Atleast that's what they seem to hope happens.
But those that have block seem to do rather well.
Also, wouldn't wearing dracs pretty much screw the barb as he'd give the wolf back just enough life to hang in there and finish him off with fury.
Both are high life chars, wolves should be doing more damage and have more ar. Barbs have higher def but enough ar and you're hitting anything.
blobswannabe
01-12-2006, 21:37
It would probably have something to do with the faceful of fury that he'd be sucking up. It'd be a good duel to see a properly prepared wolf vs a properly prepared bvc, both played by experts in their class.
and stoutewolf just addmitted that morojsto completely destroyed him. I don't see how melee duels take any skills anyway. You just have to not be a complete moron.
"he completely destroyed me there, although i might stand a better chance now with max block and a 3 range weapon"
These are his exact words. I hope you are not completely blind when it comes to werewolves losing.
akumaxyz
01-12-2006, 21:50
I can say that wolves will have a good chance from what I've seen in duel games.
Most wolves I see come into duels with two-handers and hope to land the one massive hit in before they get killed.
Atleast that's what they seem to hope happens.
But those that have block seem to do rather well.
Also, wouldn't wearing dracs pretty much screw the barb as he'd give the wolf back just enough life to hang in there and finish him off with fury.
Both are high life chars, wolves should be doing more damage and have more ar. Barbs have higher def but enough ar and you're hitting anything.
barb can use life tap wand on switch, and alot more bm stuff then the druid cannot
and stoutewolf just addmitted that morojsto completely destroyed him. I don't see how melee duels take any skills anyway. You just have to not be a complete moron.
"he completely destroyed me there, although i might stand a better chance now with max block and a 3 range weapon"
These are his exact words. I hope you are not completely blind when it comes to werewolves losing.
Also notice that by gear, skill and experience, stoutewolf is the best that there is when it comes to wolves. Unless my info is outdated, his wolf is geared with totally perfect gear or a few off-perfect. Including 45 life skillers.
barb can use life tap wand on switch, and alot more bm stuff then the druid cannot
Why oh why don't you get it already? Read above on what I said about stoutewolf and think it over.
akumaxyz
01-12-2006, 22:19
Also notice that by gear, skill and experience, stoutewolf is the best that there is when it comes to wolves. Unless my info is outdated, his wolf is geared with totally perfect gear or a few off-perfect. Including 45 life skillers.
Why oh why don't you get it already? Read above on what I said about stoutewolf and think it over.
i dont want to. you have no authority over me
Bliphgar
01-12-2006, 23:14
and stoutewolf just addmitted that morojsto completely destroyed him. I don't see how melee duels take any skills anyway. You just have to not be a complete moron.
"he completely destroyed me there, although i might stand a better chance now with max block and a 3 range weapon"
These are his exact words. I hope you are not completely blind when it comes to werewolves losing.
Whenever I read your posts it's like you're saying it in a jeering, "i'm better than you" tone : (
blobswannabe
01-12-2006, 23:18
Whenever I read your posts it's like you're saying it in a jeering, "i'm better than you" tone : (
Maybe cuz you have an inferiority complex from playing ladder.
Maybe cuz you have an inferiority complex from playing ladder.
Or then you just have huge confidence in yourself? This is what I believe to be the case instead of some level of superiority complex.
Having high confidence and clearly expressing it might seem like arrogance and a feeling of superiority to outsiders, but that's not it, most likely. I cannot really talk about this issue, as I think of myself as mostly an outcast of all societies, too different to fit anywhere, yet too different to fit among the different people.
i dont want to. you have no authority over me
I am not trying to force-feed it to you. But just read it, could you be so nice to me?
Or then you just have huge confidence in yourself? This is what I believe to be the case instead of some level of superiority complex.
Having high confidence and clearly expressing it might seem like arrogance and a feeling of superiority to outsiders, but that's not it, most likely. I cannot really talk about this issue, as I think of myself as mostly an outcast of all societies, too different to fit anywhere, yet too different to fit among the different people.
I am not trying to force-feed it to you. But just read it, could you be so nice to me?
Nope, this just described you quite nicely :)
Nope, this just described you quite nicely :)
As I said, I might seem confident on the outside, but on the inside I doubt everyone, everything and everywhere. Even myself. And that's why I have no friends or social life. Because I doubt the possibilities of it. I'm the kind of a person who always takes the worst case scenario and decides things based on the possibilities of avoiding the worst case scenario. Also, I have no friends because I cathegorize most people into meaningless, temporary mass that changes every now and then. I judge people into bad and good and any sub-cathegories according to my impression on them. Based on their cathegory, I decide the next move, if you get the figure of speech.
However, there are a few things in which people compliment me, and if I agree with them, I'm confident about being good in that specific thing. One of those is studying English. Hell, I even find at least 8 symptoms of AD/HD from myself.
Bliphgar
02-12-2006, 00:53
Maybe cuz you have an inferiority complex from playing ladder.
Wow. You're worse than I thought.
Are you trying to say that morotsjos and stoutewolf are not experts with their classes?
I don't doubt the skill and knowledge of these two but I'd love to see them duel again now. Stoutewolf can correct me if I'm wrong but if in that duel he did not have max block or a range 3 wpn then maybe his wolf wasn't full gear'd/finished yet, especially if this duel took place "ages" ago.
I only say this because I cannot think of any reason a wolf wouldn't have max block and good ebotdz vs a ww barb.
Darksteel
02-12-2006, 04:25
I'm having a real hard time seeing on how a BvC could possible beat a rabies/fury wolf with with max block and dr unless they do one or more of the following:
1) Have max block/DR
2) Stack poison resists/Death's gloves
3) Resort to using firing away with widow
4) Use Dooms/lifetap/antidote pots/other bm stuff
Now I'm not saying that my wolf beats every single BvC he sees because he doesn't. Do not take this the wrong way anyone, I'm not cocky and I'm not trying to say zomg wolves>bvc because I will agree that for all around dueling a BvC is a much eaiser class to duel and win with due to how flexable they are.
What I am saying is that when I do lose, nearly every single time it's because of one of the reasons I mentioned. A good fury/rabies wolf should beat a typical dual-wielding BvC more often than not if they don't stack poison res.
HOWEVER... like I said the BvC is a much more flexible class and if one were to do some of the stuff I mentioned above (equip a shield, stack poison res, or widow) than the odds shift in favor of the BvC greatly.
In summation: Your typical BvC will lose against most wolves, howver a very smart one will adapt and beat the wolf in further duels. I'd like to think this is something MOST of us can agree on.
RetroStar
02-12-2006, 04:32
Heya darksteel, you play East NL? Can I duel your wolf? I havn't really met any with my barbarian. I also have other characters to duel.
*star.
(with the period in the end)
Darksteel
02-12-2006, 05:14
I'd duel you but I'm on ladder :(
Hope that doesn't make me any less of a dueler in some of the elitest eyes around here ;)
mainaman
02-12-2006, 09:49
I'd duel you but I'm on ladder :(
Hope that doesn't make me any less of a dueler in some of the elitest eyes around here ;) pm me your acc on ladder i'd like to duel you
Imbecile
02-12-2006, 14:07
morotsjos just told me that stoutwolf couldn't _touch_ his barb, no matter what setup he used. missing a few %block or whatever other excuse wont change the fact that with proper whirling druid wont land a single hit. end of discussion. he also told me that his duels with ink (who apparently was very nice and very competent) confirmed this in his eyes.
You can all believe what you want but fact is that no shaper can touch top barbs. and not having enough poison res vs rabies is like dueling sorcs with negative res; stupid.
Are you trying to say that morotsjos and stoutewolf are not experts with their classes?
and stoutewolf just addmitted that morojsto completely destroyed him. I don't see how melee duels take any skills anyway. You just have to not be a complete moron.
"he completely destroyed me there, although i might stand a better chance now with max block and a 3 range weapon"
These are his exact words. I hope you are not completely blind when it comes to werewolves losing.
Perhaps you both missed the keyword in that. Let me help.
It'd be a good duel to see a properly prepared wolf vs a properly prepared bvc
Yes. A PROPERLY PREPARED wolf. From what Stoute said, it appeared as though he was using a two-hander, which would not be the opportune weapon to use against a barb. Better option would be stormsheild and a nice one-hander. If I'm correct about the two-hander thing, then it would make sense that he got destroyed, because of the limitations imposed on a druid using one vs a bvc. Clearly I'm not completely blind, blobsyboy, I know that wolves can, and do, lose. A good bvc with enough dex for max block with sheild of choice would horribly maul any druid, if they know what they're doing. If the druid uses a sheild and the barb is bvc, then given all things equal, I say the druid should have a chance. Pull your head out of the sand and stop putting words in my mouth please.
Yes. A PROPERLY PREPARED wolf. From what Stoute said, it appeared as though he was using a two-hander, which would not be the opportune weapon to use against a barb. Better option would be stormsheild and a nice one-hander. If I'm correct about the two-hander thing, then it would make sense that he got destroyed, because of the limitations imposed on a druid using one vs a bvc. Clearly I'm not completely blind, blobsyboy, I know that wolves can, and do, lose. A good bvc with enough dex for max block with sheild of choice would horribly maul any druid, if they know what they're doing. If the druid uses a sheild and the barb is bvc, then given all things equal, I say the druid should have a chance. Pull your head out of the sand and stop putting words in my mouth please.
Excuse me, but why are you twisting facts? What does "not max block and a non-range 3 weapon" have to do with "two-hander"? Most likely he was a few levels lower (as he builds to lvl 99), thus missing a couple percent's from max blocking. As for his weapon, most likely a pb Grief. As that is the setup stoute dueled against me, and I've not even been player for the last 7 months. As for why I remember this setup, I asked him and I still remember the small discussion we had about Grief PB being a bit slow.
Flayed One
02-12-2006, 15:36
I don't get it. Why even use 1-hander + shield on a shifter against BvC? it isn't worth it.reasoning:
1.BvC will have range 3, while a wolf will haverange 2 or 3, both of which are inferior to barbs range 3 with whirlwind meaning, that a wolf can be clipped. 2-hander would have a better range meaning, that a wolf can't be clipped, and also has a chance to score a hit before a BvC gets in range.
2.Even with max block it will only be able to block 1 attack per five frames at most since fury is interruptable. That means even against 1 weapon whirling barb(at 4 frames) the average block chance will be something like: (75%+25%*75%)/2 =~ 47% block on average. I dont know mechanics of Dual wielding whirlwind, but it will certainly get worse since a barbarian will get more hit-ckecks during that 5 frame non-blocking period, so the survivability advantage of the shield using wolf over a 2-hander using one isn't that big.
3.5 frame block means that not only you won't be able to block hits scored on you during that period, but you also have a veeeery small chance of being able to attack in between blocks.3 frame HR would give a wolf a much better chane of doing so.
4. a faster attack would also increase the druids chance of landing a hit inbetween interrupting animations (blocking/hit recovery)
these are my thoughts... am I right?... I have no idea...
Darksteel
02-12-2006, 17:29
Eh, I've had much more success against barbs using 1hnder and a shield but thats just me.
What one question can do with a discussion, hehe.
From what I read here, I doubt the rematch would end differently. Was Stoute played by Rogier? Or his brother?
1.BvC will have range 3, while a wolf will haverange 2 or 3, both of which are inferior to barbs range 3 with whirlwind meaning, that a wolf can be clipped. 2-hander would have a better range meaning, that a wolf can't be clipped, and also has a chance to score a hit before a BvC gets in range.
More safety and more time spent alive. You will die in an approximate of 20 Grief hits with zero blocking and counting 10k life.
2.Even with max block it will only be able to block 1 attack per five frames at most since fury is interruptable. That means even against 1 weapon whirling barb(at 4 frames) the average block chance will be something like: (75%+25%*75%)/2 =~ 47% block on average. I dont know mechanics of Dual wielding whirlwind, but it will certainly get worse since a barbarian will get more hit-ckecks during that 5 frame non-blocking period, so the survivability advantage of the shield using wolf over a 2-hander using one isn't that big.
WW attacks at 4 frames, where the first is a primary-only (grief in this case), whereas any follow-up frames within the same whirl will get a double-check, meaning a chance for both primary and secondary (grief and beast) to hit.
And that 5 frames means ~750 life lost with full DR. The maximum block will reduce the effective damage from 50% to 12.5%s, not counting PvP penalties.
3.5 frame block means that not only you won't be able to block hits scored on you during that period, but you also have a veeeery small chance of being able to attack in between blocks.3 frame HR would give a wolf a much better chane of doing so.
3.5 is faster than a barbarian gets a new hitcheck, which is at each 4 frames. Of course, it will go so that 0.5 frames (0.02 seconds) before the next hitcheck, the druid will have finished the blocking animation. And he will be blocking again right away, leaving no chances to hit, except if the barbarian runs/walks/teleports at all, as you will either spend the time in hit recovery, blocking or trying to start a fury only to be interrupted, meaning that as long as you do not force the barbarian to move or he does not lose all of his mana (which he will if he just whirls constantly), you will die.
4. a faster attack would also increase the druids chance of landing a hit inbetween interrupting animations (blocking/hit recovery)
Fury is interruptable, so it will not interrupt any animation, ever. That's why if a wolf stays still versus a barbarian, he will die. Due to being in interrupted constantly.
As for the shield, I guess stoute just plays in a manner that forces the barbarian to teleport/run/walk, aka moving constantly, waiting for a teleport. However, even for this playstyle, range 5 would be more profitable, as he could then proceed with rabies'ing the barbarian if he makes the mistake of teleporting on top of too close.
stoutewolf
02-12-2006, 19:02
I don't doubt the skill and knowledge of these two but I'd love to see them duel again now. Stoutewolf can correct me if I'm wrong but if in that duel he did not have max block or a range 3 wpn then maybe his wolf wasn't full gear'd/finished yet, especially if this duel took place "ages" ago.
I only say this because I cannot think of any reason a wolf wouldn't have max block and good ebotdz vs a ww barb.
true i wasnt finished yet there (lvl 99 build takes time)
@luder: grief pb=range2 zerker=range 3
it is quite obvious that i couldn't touch him isnt it?
now with my 4 fpa zerker it would be a better duell :wink:
InkNDagger
02-12-2006, 19:34
Are you trying to say that morotsjos and stoutewolf are not experts with their classes?
I beat morotsjos. I'm sure rog could do it too, if he would use a freakin shield.
I beat morotsjos. I'm sure rog could do it too, if he would use a freakin shield.
From what I read, you had 8 duels total, in sets of 4 duels. One in which morotsjos hosted and one on a random public game. Of course there were situations where either had the ping advantages, so the duels are hardly counteable.
Also, from what I read, you did never beat him, as in winning more than losing. Which is what I was aiming at.
It looks like I am the only BvC defender now with Romper Stomper, morotsjos and blobswannabe being banned.
stoutewolf
02-12-2006, 21:18
I beat morotsjos. I'm sure rog could do it too, if he would use a freakin shield.
i had 65% block there and was using grief pb, now i have an eth robo zerker which will definately make a difference:wink:
i had 65% block there and was using grief pb, now i have an eth robo zerker which will definately make a difference:wink:
By robo zerker do you mean an eth bugged zerker filled with 40/15s?
Flayed One
02-12-2006, 23:05
3.5 is faster than a barbarian gets a new hitcheck
that was:
point 3: 5 frames blocking...blablabla...
not a 3.5 frame blocking :wink3:
a were druid blocks 5 frames. thats why his effective chance to block is much lower then 75%, and thats my whole point.A druid can only block one hit each 5 frames, and that means 3 hits(2 if its the beggining of the whirlwind) get through his block without blocking check. The way blocklock was "fixed" actually nerfeds blocking on interruptable-attack characters since you cant block attacks untill youre through the blocking animation.
Lets see what that means - Lets assume its not the first check of the whirlwind so each 4 frames a barbarian gets 2 hit checks:
frame 0: a first check gets blocked 75%(that one is easy) of the time, the second only(1-75%)*75% = 19,375%(because it can only be blocked if the first check wasnt blocked.
frame1,2,3: nothing
frame4: first check gets blocked only (1-75%-19,375%)*75% = 4,21875%(because it can only block if the first and second check didn't get blocked, and the second gets blocked only (1-75%-19,375%-4,21875%)*75% = 1,40625% of the time
what that means? Let's see whats the average:
average attacks blocked = (75%+19,375%+4,21875%+1,40625%)/4 = 100% /4 = 25%
so a max block only lets a werewolf lower the damge he takes by 25%, and that means he will take 37,5% of the damage(counting max block in and damage reduced) as opposed to 50% damage a 2-hander using wolf takes. is it worth it? I don't think so... That of course only approximation, because I assumed a barb hits every time and that isn't true, but since BvCs AR is so much bigger then WWs defense, the damage reduction provided by max block probably won't be higher then 33% total.
that was:
point 3: 5 frames blocking...blablabla...
not a 3.5 frame blocking :wink3:
That does not change anything, except that the druid will always be hit or be blocking for as long as the barbarian will whirl with no longer than 0.2 seconds between each whirl.
a were druid blocks 5 frames. thats why his effective chance to block is much lower then 75%, and thats my whole point.A druid can only block one hit each 5 frames, and that means 3 hits(2 if its the beggining of the whirlwind) get through his block without blocking check. The way blocklock was "fixed" actually nerfeds blocking on interruptable-attack characters since you cant block attacks untill youre through the blocking animation.
Lets see what that means - Lets assume its not the first check of the whirlwind so each 4 frames a barbarian gets 2 hit checks:
frame 0: a first check gets blocked 75%(that one is easy) of the time, the second only(1-75%)*75% = 19,375%(because it can only be blocked if the first check wasnt blocked.
frame1,2,3: nothing
frame4: first check gets blocked only (1-75%-19,375%)*75% = 4,21875%(because it can only block if the first and second check didn't get blocked, and the second gets blocked only (1-75%-19,375%-4,21875%)*75% = 1,40625% of the time
what that means? Let's see whats the average:
average attacks blocked = (75%+19,375%+4,21875%+1,40625%)/4 = 100% /4 = 25%
so a max block only lets a werewolf lower the damge he takes by 25%, and that means he will take 37,5% of the damage(counting max block in and damage reduced) as opposed to 50% damage a 2-hander using wolf takes. is it worth it? I don't think so... That of course only approximation, because I assumed a barb hits every time and that isn't true, but since BvCs AR is so much bigger then WWs defense, the damage reduction provided by max block probably won't be higher then 33% total.
You are making a single mistake: You are assuming 100% chance to hit. The maximum would be 95%. And even that is pretty impossible. Let's assume that the barbarian uses Hsarus + Ravens + Enchant. That gives him ~15-20k AR. Now, let's assume 20k. Also, let's say the druid has 5k defense. If they are both of the same level, the chance to hit with no blocking taken into account ends up being 80%. Now, this already makes your calculations flawed. We need at least five hitchecks. Also, the druid with say, 25k AR versus barbarian's 15k def has 62.5% chance to hit. However, the only place where the druid can actually make a hit is if the barbarian misses thrice in a row (12 - 5 = 7) and the chance for that to happen is 51.2%. So 48.8% of the time the druid will only be blocking or taking damage, whereas 51.2% of the time he will spend attacking. Now, with the 7 frames left, the druid will have a 62.5% chance to hit the barbarian. So he will hit more than miss.
However, none of this has meaning.
Flayed One
03-12-2006, 00:23
That does not change anything, except that the druid will always be hit or be blocking for as long as the barbarian will whirl with no longer than 0.2 seconds between each whirl.
it changes a lot. It means that if a werewolf blocks, the next three hit-checks won't get blocked. It is a big deal IMO.
You are making a single mistake: You are assuming 100% chance to hit.
Its not a mistake - I disregarded chance to hit, and I stated so in my post. I also stated it's only an approximation.
with 75% cth:
first check: 56,25%
second check: 24,609375%
third check: 10,7666015625%
fourth check: 4,710388183593750%
sum: 96,33636474609375%
average CtB = 32,11212158203125%
its still pretty low considering that a wolf paid for "75% blocking"...:tongue:
and it fits almost exactly into my "approximation"... actually i guessed the outcome:cool:
stoutewolf
03-12-2006, 11:09
By robo zerker do you mean an eth bugged zerker filled with 40/15s?
yes :smiley:
stout, i'll duel you whenever you want with the same outcome. just pm GIFF @ d2jsp if you honestly believe that 10% more chance to block will grant you one single kill on me this time. just _one_ kill, thats all i ask for.
as for the rest of the incompetent theorycrafters posting here, stop embarrassing yourselves with retarded calcs. they are wrong anyway. yes i'm especially thinking of you FLAYED ONE, you have no clue of how block/ww/anything works so just give up.
oh yeah grief pb is by far the best weapon vs barbs. range 2/3 is pretty irrelevant since barb who whirls properly wont get hit even by range 5 fury.
Flayed One
03-12-2006, 16:01
-edit- nevermind... either show me ahere my calulations are wrong, or backup this statement with arguments, please...:evil:
-edit- nevermind... either show me ahere my calulations are wrong, or backup this statement with arguments, please...:evil:
They are not necessarily wrong, but they are not absolutely correct either.
That's the case when you are dealing with a little factor called chance. Chance is called chance because it's totally random. In your calculations, you are using chances, multiplying chances by chances to get a new chance, which twists it so that it ends up depending from multiple chances that are not 100%, making them extremely inaccurate. 80% is not necessarily 80% in reality, it's 80% (aka 8/10) only in maths. And even though the game is based on maths, it still has a built-in random generator for those chances, so they do not necessarily go exact or even close to 80% even though saying so.
Flayed One
03-12-2006, 16:16
with that I have to agree with you. These are still only approximations, And actually the main point I stand for is that max block on a werewolf won't actually mean 75% of hit's blocked against very fast attacks(4 frames and faster).The problem is that it seems to be much crippled against an attack as fast as dual-wield 4-frame whirlwind.
with that I have to agree with you. These are still only approximations, And actually the main point I stand for is that max block on a werewolf won't actually mean 75% of hit's blocked against very fast attacks(4 frames and faster).The problem is that it seems to be much crippled against an attack as fast as dual-wield 4-frame whirlwind.
That is only true if the blocking sequence takes place in a mathematical way, meaning that the actual percentages are true. There's always a slight chance that, for example, the druid will be hit 10 times in a row with no blocking. Or there's a chance that the barbarian will miss five hits in a row. There's always a chance for something, meaning that in the end, you are providing people with nothing but useless mathematical wannabe-solutions to things.
Flayed One
03-12-2006, 16:39
not exactly. If you duel only once that may be right, but the more duels you engage in, the average amount of hits blocked will approach the mathematicly aquired ctb. If people went with your philosophy they would duel naked, since there is always a chance a barb will miss all his attacks, and I will hit all... nevermind that a chance for said thing will be like 1/10^1000... Mathematical formulae's based on probabilities aren't necesarly good approximations for single samples, but the more samples you take into account, the better approximations they are.
not exactly. If you duel only once that may be right, but the more duels you engage in, the average amount of hits blocked will approach the mathematicly aquired ctb. If people went with your philosophy they would duel naked, since there is always a chance a barb will miss all his attacks, and I will hit all... nevermind that a chance for said thing will be like 1/10^1000... Mathematical formulae's based on probabilities aren't necesarly good approximations for single samples, but the more samples you take into account, the better approximations they are.
However, if you were to make a matrix out of a duel, you would end up in a situation where the win/lose percentages are no more than 5% away from 50%. And to whom the extra 5% on winning will go would depend on who would be the first to hit. However, this is not the case in an actual duel of course. However, it's a fact that the barbarian deals more damage and faster, but also has less life compared to the druid dealing less damage with more life and safety. This is of course assuming as low str as possible while retaining Fortitude, maximum block and the robo zerk.
And yes, people could just duel naked, but the reason why they do not is that the chance for missin all the hits is too small for it to be of any real use. Also, this is the case with Grief vs. EBotdZ. EBotdZ has lower minimum damage and higher maximum damage, but less average damage, thus making the chance of scoring hits that cause less damage than Grief a possibility, but also the fact that scoring higher damage hits is possible. However, if you look at it mathematically, a perfect EBotdZ has a total of 5937 possible damages compared to the 2073 of Grief's, and out of those 5937 a total of 2299 damages will be lower than Grief's. This is a total of 38.72% of the damages. Now, the amount of damages that are greater than Grief's is as small as 226, meaning 2.71% of the time EBotdZ>GriefZ. Meaning that (100%-2.71%=97.29%) 97.29% of the time EBotdZ will be weaker or as good as Grief. Out of that 97.29%, 38.72% it will be lower than Grief, meaning that EBotdZ==GriefZ 58.57% of the time. However, since the chance to cause a lower hit is not single digits, we can conclude that GriefZ>EBotdZ. This is because if it was in single digits, we could have a very high chance of having the same damage or higher, which would make the lower damage hits neglected.
This was just a boring and a simple example of probabilities in action. However, even this example is very inaccurate, as it's done with perfect weapons and a Beast supporting the damage.
wheel-of-doom
03-12-2006, 19:04
I'll take a stab at it with my barb. I'll message you some time..
What one question can do with a discussion, hehe.
From what I read here, I doubt the rematch would end differently. Was Stoute played by Rogier? Or his brother?
both. unlike vs ink i didn't even die when i stopped caring and played recklessly. lag blows.
-edit- nevermind... either show me ahere my calulations are wrong, or backup this statement with arguments, please...:evil:
easy.
1. if you ever get off your theorycrafting *** and play some barb vs wolf you'll realize that range is irrelevant.
2. you can block even when in block-animation sorry.
3. if you actually bother playing some pvp and aren't retarded you'll realize that latency/lag/glitches etc causes theory to differ from reality, i.e. casters can escape ww even when block/hitrecovery should make it impossible and meleechars sometimes get attacks off even when they should be blocklocked.
these are my thoughts... am I right?... I have no idea...
no you have no idea of neither basic theory nor how d2 works in practice.
admit that all your ignorant theorycrafting is useless then go read and play some (a lot) before posting worthless calcs again.
twohander better than shield vs barbs = worst joke i've ever seen.
There's some really poor theorycrafting going on in this thread.
@Flayed One: Like morots said, block recovery doesn't prevent you from blocking again; I don't know why you would ever think otherwise, but your assumption is easily proven false.
I took a max block human form druid with a plain monarch (11 frame block) and shot 9 frame Guided Arrows at him, two at a time. It was pretty common to see the both arrows not hit which means that the druid obviously blocked them (the block animation is clearly visible for the first block, but nothing visual for the second block), since the hit chance formula doesn't apply to GA and the druid has no other means to avoid the shot. It's not next-hit delay either since GA isn't fast enough, plus there were a number of times where both arrows connected as well.
@Ce Olba: For someone who goes to such painstaking precision in his calculations, your actual knowledge of statistics is severely lacking. To use your Grief/eBotD comparison, the chance that eBotD damage == Grief damage is way lower than 58%.
Let's say that you roll a uniform random number between 1-30, and I roll a uniform random number between 11-20. You're saying that every time your number is between 11-20 (1/3rd of the time) we'll roll the same number, which isn't true (for example, you roll 15 and I roll 14). In reality, there's only a 1/30 chance on any pair of rolls that we'll have the exact same number. The correct way to do it is to calculate the probabilities that my number is higher, lower, or equal for every single one of your possible numbers, and then average those probabilities together.
ToThePoint
04-12-2006, 00:56
They are not necessarily wrong, but they are not absolutely correct either.
That's the case when you are dealing with a little factor called chance. Chance is called chance because it's totally random. In your calculations, you are using chances, multiplying chances by chances to get a new chance, which twists it so that it ends up depending from multiple chances that are not 100%, making them extremely inaccurate. 80% is not necessarily 80% in reality, it's 80% (aka 8/10) only in maths. And even though the game is based on maths, it still has a built-in random generator for those chances, so they do not necessarily go exact or even close to 80% even though saying so.
thats why you do more than 1 duel, multiplying probabilities is absolutely correct.
What he was doing was an extension of the chance to hit and chance to block combined or critical and deadly for total doublechance then combined with ar etc iirc you do those sort of basic combos pretty frequently when preaching to people.
as time tends to infinity 'theory' approaches 'facts'
ofc you just need to use the right facts
IMCanadian
04-12-2006, 05:11
xgchvjkjljghfgxdgchjkbnbvghfcxgvbkjjhgcfxgcfhgvj
Wolves dont suck..learn how to play em n with the right gear they are as efficient as any other character..god, end this discussion soon please??
iMC :grin:
thats why you do more than 1 duel, multiplying probabilities is absolutely correct.
What he was doing was an extension of the chance to hit and chance to block combined or critical and deadly for total doublechance then combined with ar etc iirc you do those sort of basic combos pretty frequently when preaching to people.
as time tends to infinity 'theory' approaches 'facts'
ofc you just need to use the right facts
Yes, of course. Those are all 100% valid statements and I was expecting such at any time. Now, let's see:
Time is already infinite, because all we can say is that it is now, but we cannot say when it begun or has it always been there. This is because we cannot necessarily define what "time" actually is.
As for theories approaching facts, this is also correct, and as you should know from mathematics, physics and chemistry, there are theories that are facts. However, in all of those cases there has been no element of probability. There are only a few statements of probabilities that are facts, such as the next probability always being smaller than the one before, the next probability is always either the final probability or then it is multiplied by a new probability at some point. However, probability has the little thing that it's only 100% true in mathematics. In everywhere else it's totally random. You could take 1 000 000 chances and always get the "wrong" results. However, that's of course very unlikely. Yet it's possible.
@Ce Olba: For someone who goes to such painstaking precision in his calculations, your actual knowledge of statistics is severely lacking. To use your Grief/eBotD comparison, the chance that eBotD damage == Grief damage is way lower than 58%.
Did I not already state that the numbers were done purely based on my own barbarian who does not have the most perfect stats or gear? Yes, the calculation is totally wrong if we talk about the weapons individually, because I was taking into account the Beast's STR and Fanatiscm. However, this should not be the case unless specified, since most of the time the EBotdZ vs. GriefZ comes up with BvCs.
And I was merely stating that 58% of the time EBotdZ's damage is in the same area as GriefZ's damage. Take into account that this is not about average damage, but all the damage variables. And yes, the chance that EBotdZ would score a lower hit is too much to take the chance. And of course I might've made a couple of mistakes, so if you find a few, feel free to say so. I've been known to my maths teachers for making a single repeatitive mistake that has ruined the whole calculation, such as placing a minus instead of a plus or understanding the problem in an inccorect way.
ToThePoint
04-12-2006, 12:17
Yes, of course. Those are all 100% valid statements and I was expecting such at any time. Now, let's see:
Time is already infinite, because all we can say is that it is now, but we cannot say when it begun or has it always been there. This is because we cannot necessarily define what "time" actually is.
As for theories approaching facts, this is also correct, and as you should know from mathematics, physics and chemistry, there are theories that are facts. However, in all of those cases there has been no element of probability. There are only a few statements of probabilities that are facts, such as the next probability always being smaller than the one before, the next probability is always either the final probability or then it is multiplied by a new probability at some point. However, probability has the little thing that it's only 100% true in mathematics. In everywhere else it's totally random. You could take 1 000 000 chances and always get the "wrong" results. However, that's of course very unlikely. Yet it's possible.
Did I not already state that the numbers were done purely based on my own barbarian who does not have the most perfect stats or gear? Yes, the calculation is totally wrong if we talk about the weapons individually, because I was taking into account the Beast's STR and Fanatiscm. However, this should not be the case unless specified, since most of the time the EBotdZ vs. GriefZ comes up with BvCs.
And I was merely stating that 58% of the time EBotdZ's damage is in the same area as GriefZ's damage. Take into account that this is not about average damage, but all the damage variables. And yes, the chance that EBotdZ would score a lower hit is too much to take the chance. And of course I might've made a couple of mistakes, so if you find a few, feel free to say so. I've been known to my maths teachers for making a single repeatitive mistake that has ruined the whole calculation, such as placing a minus instead of a plus or understanding the problem in an inccorect way.
olba quit preaching about stuff you have no clue on.
that retarded stuff on time is irrelevant as we are talking about a game. now to satisfy your pseudointellectual babbling we will say time = the accumulation of frames within the game from the time starts but oh wait there are 25 in one second so perhaps in real life we run in frames.
we do not need to know when time has begun as the whole point is its about relevant time approaching infinity and thats not even needed as there are a small number of finite variables the time required to reach say 95% confidence is going to be fairly small and can be approximated in anycase by just doing as many duels as can be bothered, say best of 9 or whatever.
yet again you whine and rant about irrelevant stuff - the sciences have have nothing to do with the game only simple additions and subtractions etc.
Your attempts to change everything into a way of regurgitating your 'vast knowledge' is pathetic and ever irrelevant.
"I've been known to my maths teachers for making a single repeatitive mistake that has ruined the whole calculation, such as placing a minus instead of a plus or understanding the problem in an inccorect way."
My word, this is incredible, you really should be studied for thinking in a manner completely different to others? You get stuff wrong by making mistakes? thats never been done before! You also get stuff wrong by not understanding the problem? intersting!
oh and yeah even from your own figures your maths is wrong
mainaman
04-12-2006, 16:30
I'm not sure whats the big deal here.People talk about what would happen and such...
lag kills the theory so fast that you better stop thinkng of theory asap.
my duel with remsy was like this:
Initially i didnt have lag i killed him all the duels , then i started lagging and he killed me several times . We went 50/50 at the end. But I will tell you one thing any time i was able to perform clean 3 ww he never even got a hit on me . Every time i screwd up my ww's he got kills on me .
All this still can't account towards definite conclusion but its indicative of which char might be superior, in the hands of an experienced player and in minimal lag environment.
Oh and by the way i had no high stacked poison at all , only my poison res as it is 5-10 stacked above 75...
I've been known to my maths teachers for making a single repeatitive mistake that has ruined the whole calculation, such as placing a minus instead of a plus or understanding the problem in an inccorect way.
That's the problem here. Re-read the last paragraph in my previous post, I can't explain it in any simpler terms than that.
That's the problem here. Re-read the last paragraph in my previous post, I can't explain it in any simpler terms than that.
dont bother arguing with olga, he wouldn't give up if you stuck the correct calcs up his ***.
blobswannabe
06-12-2006, 20:22
he completely destroyed me there, although i might stand a better chance now with max block and a 3 range weapon :wink3:
From what Stoute said, it appeared as though he was using a two-hander, which would not be the opportune weapon to use against a barb. Better option would be stormsheild and a nice one-hander. If I'm correct about the two-hander thing, then it would make sense that he got destroyed, because of the limitations imposed on a druid using one vs a bvc.
true i wasnt finished yet there (lvl 99 build takes time)
@luder: grief pb=range2 zerker=range 3
it is quite obvious that i couldn't touch him isnt it?
now with my 4 fpa zerker it would be a better duell :wink:
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that stoutewulf is a complete moron who uses 2 handed weapons against barbs. But it's hilariously obvious that you are willing to insult one of the most respected werewolf player's intelligence to make your little wolfies seem better than they are.
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that stoutewulf is a complete moron who uses 2 handed weapons against barbs. But it's hilariously obvious that you are willing to insult one of the most respected werewolf player's intelligence to make your little wolfies seem better than they are.
No one is questioning Stoutewolf's skills/knowledge here. Wolves are already at a disadvantage since WW mechanics>Fury mechanics. In the duel with Morot, Stoute was at an even more disadvantage since he did not have max block and was outranged using a range 2 wpn.
Grief pb damage rocks but against an equally skilled bvc who can whirl right, a wolf with all the disadvantages they have to begin with is asking to be killed. Sure it can kill 90% of pub bvcs but I seriously doubt Stoute would use it again vs a good bvc like Morot.
Not completely sure why Stoute didn't have max block, even if he wasn't finished lvling but I'm sure he'd agree that it was a bad idea. Did he still lose badly? Yes. Would his chances improve with max block and good range 3 wpn? Of course and he has both now but we'll never know unless they agree to duel again (which Stoute doesn't seem to be shying from).
Since WW mechanics > Fury mechanics, an extremely skilled bvc (very few qualify for this) will win more in a series vs a good wolf, period. I do not think any wolf will or should argue with this. What most wolfs have issue with is the claim they can’t touch barbs and will lose 10-0 every time no matter what. I seriously doubt a good bvc can 10-0 (or even 20-0 like Morot claimed once) a good wolf like Ink or Stoute or Kiba in a series. Ink proved the underdog fury wolf can be competitive and win some of the time.
A lot of the recent flaming has been due to people not understanding reality. There are so many bad bvc in pubs these days that decent wolfs regularly do fine against them. It’s very rare to find a good bvc and even then, they usually aren’t as good as Morot or Blobs. So when some wolves claim they frequently win vs bvcs, its generally true to the extent of the current reality of pubs today. What it doesn’t mean is Fury>all WW. So instead of bashing all and every wolf out there, blame the many poorly skilled bvcs out there making bvcs look deceptively easy to a wolf.
Uncle_Mike
06-12-2006, 21:53
No one is questioning Stoutewolf's skills/knowledge here. Wolves are already at a disadvantage since WW mechanics>Fury mechanics. In the duel with Morot, Stoute was at an even more disadvantage since he did not have max block and was outranged using a range 2 wpn.
Grief pb damage rocks but against an equally skilled bvc who can whirl right, a wolf with all the disadvantages they have to begin with is asking to be killed. Sure it can kill 90% of pub bvcs but I seriously doubt Stoute would use it again vs a good bvc like Morot.
Not completely sure why Stoute didn't have max block, even if he wasn't finished lvling but I'm sure he'd agree that it was a bad idea. Did he still lose badly? Yes. Would his chances improve with max block and good range 3 wpn? Of course and he has both now but we'll never know unless they agree to duel again (which Stoute doesn't seem to be shying from).
Since WW mechanics > Fury mechanics, an extremely skilled bvc (very few qualify for this) will win more in a series vs a good wolf, period. I do not think any wolf will or should argue with this. What most wolfs have issue with is the claim they can’t touch barbs and will lose 10-0 every time no matter what. I seriously doubt a good bvc can 10-0 (or even 20-0 like Morot claimed once) a good wolf like Ink or Stoute or Kiba in a series. Ink proved the underdog fury wolf can be competitive and win some of the time.
A lot of the recent flaming has been due to people not understanding reality. There are so many bad bvc in pubs these days that decent wolfs regularly do fine against them. It’s very rare to find a good bvc and even then, they usually aren’t as good as Morot or Blobs. So when some wolves claim they frequently win vs bvcs, its generally true to the extent of the current reality of pubs today. What it doesn’t mean is Fury>all WW. So instead of bashing all and every wolf out there, blame the many poorly skilled bvcs out there making bvcs look deceptively easy to a wolf.
are you saying that there are plenty of crap bvcs whereas all wolves are top notch duelers? True, it is hard to find a good bvc but are you suggesting that wolves in pubs are all like Stoute/Ink skillwise? WW barb has the upper hand in this one. What is there to debate...
Mike
are you saying that there are plenty of crap bvcs whereas all wolves are top notch duelers? True, it is hard to find a good bvc but are you suggesting that wolves in pubs are all like Stoute/Ink skillwise?
Mike
When I say its decent wolves who do fine, I mean those who haven't given up on their wolf when they cannot replicate Kiba's videos after buying the right gear. Because inherently wolves are at a disadvantage, most ppl who stick with this class are those who love the challenge of making an underpowered class competitive. This means sticking through the rough learning curve and hard to get gear (eth tomb reaver for one). If it was easy to become a decent wolf, you'd see a lot more of them in pubs. Obviously you don't and for good reason. It's much easier to win with other classes where you can make more mistakes and do okay even with bad gear (Hammerdins for one). Even after wolves get above average gear and some experience, they still will not approach Ink/Stoute's lvl simply because these two have been around long enough to really learn their char inside and out much like Morot and Blobs. However, those who stick with their char past the learning curve enjoy the benefit of being able to know how to hold their own, even against superior WW mechanics in the hands of a poorly skilled bvc.
WW barb has the upper hand in this one. What is there to debate...
Mike
I've already stated fury is at a disadvantage vs WW so of course WW barbs naturally have the upper hand to start with. No one is disputing this.
blobswannabe
07-12-2006, 01:26
It's true that 90% of "bvcs" are pathetic. I can't even consider them bvcs because they can't beat casters at all. There's a slightly high learning curve for bvcs. Also pub wannabe bvcs are mostly poorly equiped and built. Most people who play "bvcs" these days only play it because of blobs' guides, and mcm's videos not because they actually know hot to use one.
However on NL, particularly west NL, there are lot of decent to good bvcs. Mcm and I are just some of the many.
What about me? T_____________T
blobswannabe
07-12-2006, 06:12
What about me? T_____________T
what's your account name? copying mcm's fort + widow ww away and zon like spamming strategy vs hammerdins does not neccesarily prove one to be a good bvc.
akumaxyz
07-12-2006, 06:34
fort +widow is the easy way out of hammerdins. what i do is tele to their blind spot south west corner and berzerk them , if you do it correctly you wont be hit by hammers unless he moves and start hammering again, if he charges thats just free hits if you can get him.
blobswannabe
07-12-2006, 06:47
fort +widow is the easy way out of hammerdins. what i do is tele to their blind spot south west corner and berzerk them , if you do it correctly you wont be hit by hammers unless he moves and start hammering again, if he charges thats just free hits if you can get him.
Unfortunately that only works on morons who think they are invincible by casting hammers in the same spot.
akumaxyz
07-12-2006, 06:50
Unfortunately that only works on morons who think they are invincible by casting hammers in the same spot.
they either do that or make invinsible hammers which is good if you are good at predicting charge patterns basically free hits. you dont need bow to pk them this way
blobswannabe
07-12-2006, 07:03
they either do that or make invinsible hammers which is good if you are good at predicting charge patterns basically free hits. you dont need bow to pk them this way
the best hammerdins won't let that happen and the noobs who play mega defensive won't let you hit them either or they'll heal before they die. And you really can't afford to use widow when you are hostile to 6 other guys at the same time.
akumaxyz
07-12-2006, 07:08
true if they mix charge and tele together, thats almost impossible. 1 v 7 with barb is suicide in pub and its pointless anyway
what's your account name? copying mcm's fort + widow ww away and zon like spamming strategy vs hammerdins does not neccesarily prove one to be a good bvc.
*th3_0n3 [o = zero]
And I didn't mean that seriously, rofl.
I'm not bad, though.
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