Why can't a zealot duel in pubs?

[Uchiha Sasuke]

Seeing as how a wolf is viable... why is a zealot not? It has all the features a wolf has (minus the 4-5 range, high life) and has the ability to use vigour'd charge...

[moonlike]

Seeing as how a wolf is viable... why is a zealot not? It has all the features a wolf has (minus the 4-5 range, high life) and has the ability to use vigour'd charge...

smiter is 100000x better

[superjayson]

who cares, play a zealot.
ps. d2 has way too many smiters as it is.

[Uchiha Sasuke]

who cares, play a zealot.
ps. d2 has way too many smiters as it is.

....

I'm asking for efficiency... not for some underpowered build that I can play with...


Totally forgot about smiters...

[Quietus]

Zealots have a hard time in pubs because they have to rely on AR and blocking can stop their attacks, while Smite ignores both of these. Smite is also uninterruptable, has higher damage, and attacks only slightly slower. Other than that the two builds are pretty much identical, so with all those advantages, smite has a distinct upper hand, making Zeal automatically a second-tier skill for PvP.

It does, however, have a place in a duel restricted to attacks that require ar. You could fight barbs, other zeal pallys, druids, and zons pretty effectively with zeal. You could also make an attempt at hammerdins (if you can position yourself well or get nice use of Charge). I'm sure there are other builds I could have listed, and that some people will disagree with some of these suggestions, but that's just the nature of PvP.

[zeiris]

If I understand him right, he's asking why zealots aren't viable if wolves are...

Methinks the fact that zealots have high defense, and druids have high health is a major factor in caster-heavy pub environments. Although the lack of charge may counter that...


Regardless, a zealot is a paladin, and paladins are the most cookie cutter thing ever. So who cares? You want a cool melee, go make a druid =)

[Quietus]

If I understand him right, he's asking why zealots aren't viable if wolves are...

Methinks the fact that zealots have high defense, and druids have high health is a major factor in caster-heavy pub environments. Although the lack of charge may counter that...


Regardless, a zealot is a paladin, and paladins are the most cookie cutter thing ever. So who cares? You want a cool melee, go make a druid =)

Good point. In that case, you're perfectly correct. Large life > large defense when you're facing windys, sorcs, hammerdins, foh's, smiters, etc

[Uchiha Sasuke]

Good point. In that case, you're perfectly correct. Large life > large defense when you're facing windys, sorcs, hammerdins, foh's, smiters, etc

Oh, ok.

But the AR is still good enough to hit such things?

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

because remaining zealots believe stoutly that someday they will have a clean zvz room with 8 zealers and no smiters.

while our doggie friends have no place to escape to, forcing them to be howling alone in pub games.

[Uchiha Sasuke]

because remaining zealots believe stoutly that someday they will have a clean zvz room with 8 zealers and no smiters.

while our doggie friends have no place to escape to, forcing them to be howling alone in pub games.

Such a heartwarming, sad story...

[Ink]

druidpk//1
grove//duel

temple//duel
palapk//1



Zeal is now uninterruptable for the record.

Advantages of tele/charge zeal over tele/charge smite:

Zeal can do way more damage. Smite doesn't benefit from deadly strike.

Zeal has a mathematically higher chance of casting life tap, and quickly, in a duel.

Zeal doesn't knock people back - which IMO from dueling vs smiters with werewolves back when things were pretty balanced in 09 and 10, knockback can be a big disadvantage - putting your opponent out of range momentarily while they get off an extra bone spirit/tornado/blizzard/fury/hammer.

The advantages of smiter:

Unblockable
always hits.

Interestingly, people who go base dext or who don't use a shield (BvC) aren't going to block zeal either, which leaves things up to attack rating. Considering zeal is uninterruptable and a 4 frame attack, even with a lower chance to hit it ought to balance out with total hits over time just because of speed.

Also, all zealots can smite too.

[kabal]

Interestingly, people who go base dext or who don't use a shield (BvC) aren't going to block zeal either, which leaves things up to attack rating. Considering zeal is uninterruptable and a 4 frame attack, even with a lower chance to hit it ought to balance out with total hits over time just because of speed.


The first hit of zeal is capped at either 7 or 8 frames (I think 8) with all the follow up hits at 4 frames. With proper clipping technique a barb won't be in range long enough for the entire zeal cycle to land (and it's possible to clip in a way so that the barb still hits the zealot while all 5 zeal swings miss), so the fast follow up hits don't really yield more hits over time if the barb plays well. Sloppy WW's on a BvC do tend to be more costly against zealots than smiters for the reasons you stated.

From what I hear, HF torch somewhat alleviates the KB problem with Smite too, since the Firestorm proc will stun in conjunction with the Smite swirlies.

[Lyrs]

Can you zeal at 6/4/4/4 with a range 4 or 5 polearm?

[Jackson]

It'd be pretty ridiculous to get.

[Ink]

iirc zeal has set 8 frame initial no matter the ias after you get 4 frames.


one thing you can do with zeal (and other auto targeting skills) that you can't with smite is shift attack( ok you can use the shift key with smite but...), which kind of eliminates the problem of someone whirling away. Now I don't mean just holding shift down but I mean using tapping and angling to desynch your client side zeal from the server, even as the server registers you as "in combat". What happens is you see zeal looking like it is only doing normal attack, but you can see all 5 zeals striking. Also makes it pretty near impossible for the shifter to get hit.

[Crazy Runner Guy]

Can you zeal at 6/4/4/4 with a range 4 or 5 polearm?
Zeal is capped at 5 frames for two handers.

crg

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

iirc zeal has set 8 frame initial no matter the ias after you get 4 frames.


one thing you can do with zeal (and other auto targeting skills) that you can't with smite is shift attack( ok you can use the shift key with smite but...), which kind of eliminates the problem of someone whirling away. Now I don't mean just holding shift down but I mean using tapping and angling to desynch your client side zeal from the server, even as the server registers you as "in combat". What happens is you see zeal looking like it is only doing normal attack, but you can see all 5 zeals striking. Also makes it pretty near impossible for the shifter to get hit.
That's pretty hard to understand. Are you sure its the client side that lags the server? I think more like the game is intended to show auto target attacks as a normal attack. This could easily be tested by playing SP.

And once an opponent gets within range, the zeal animation will show. Same thing with Strafe.

My question is, say when someone not hostiled to you is in your screen, and if you do a shift zeal, it will show as normal attack client side, but what will they see? I'm thinking it still will be normal attack.

[kabal]

I thought Lyrs' question was rhetorical, as to point out an advantage for a wolf over a zealot: Fury can hit a 6/4 cycle with a dual Shael'ed Tomb Reaver whereas Zeal is at best capped at 8/4.

AFAIK zeal-desync (not seeing the follow up hits) is only a graphical glitch and doesn't affect the actual mechanics of the attack on either client or server side. While you may only see one attack on a full cycle it still takes 24 frames for all 5 swings to occur; it's not actually condensing the cycle into the initial 8 frame hit. Either way, I can't see how it makes shift zeal any less susceptible to clip whirl than any other swinging attack.

From what I understand about zeal (someone correct me if I'm wrong):
-First swing must acquire a target that's in range for follow up hits.
-If there's a target in range, all follow up swings will occur.
-If there isn't a target in range, no follow up swings will occur. Just looks like the zealot's swinging at the air with normal attack.
-For a target to be considered in range, it has to be within range when zeal is clicked.
-Actual hit check is performed at the end of the 8 frames.

This leads to 2 hypothetical cases where a barb can clip a zealot:

Case 1:
Frame 1: Barb is WW'ing and in range of zealot. Click zeal, 'in range' check succeeds.
Frame 4: WW hit check on zealot, barb still in range.
Frame 5: Barb leaves zeal range.
Frame 8: Initial zeal swing finishes, but misses due to barb being out of range. All follow up swings also miss due to range (if they even occur).

Case 2:
Frame 1: Barb is WW'ing and out of range of zealot. Click zeal, 'in range' check fails.
Frame 4: Barb enters zeal range.
Frame 8: WW hit check on zealot, barb still in range, and initial zeal swing finishes. Zeal swing still fails to connect or even perform a hit check due to failed 'in range' check during frame 1. Follow up hits never occur.

[Uchiha Sasuke]

I thought Lyrs' question was rhetorical, as to point out an advantage for a wolf over a zealot: Fury can hit a 6/4 cycle with a dual Shael'ed Tomb Reaver whereas Zeal is at best capped at 8/4.

AFAIK zeal-desync (not seeing the follow up hits) is only a graphical glitch and doesn't affect the actual mechanics of the attack on either client or server side. While you may only see one attack on a full cycle it still takes 24 frames for all 5 swings to occur; it's not actually condensing the cycle into the initial 8 frame hit. Either way, I can't see how it makes shift zeal any less susceptible to clip whirl than any other swinging attack.

From what I understand about zeal (someone correct me if I'm wrong):
-First swing must acquire a target that's in range for follow up hits.
-If there's a target in range, all follow up swings will occur.
-If there isn't a target in range, no follow up swings will occur. Just looks like the zealot's swinging at the air with normal attack.
-For a target to be considered in range, it has to be within range when zeal is clicked.
-Actual hit check is performed at the end of the 8 frames.

This leads to 2 hypothetical cases where a barb can clip a zealot:

Case 1:
Frame 1: Barb is WW'ing and in range of zealot. Click zeal, 'in range' check succeeds.
Frame 4: WW hit check on zealot, barb still in range.
Frame 5: Barb leaves zeal range.
Frame 8: Initial zeal swing finishes, but misses due to barb being out of range. All follow up swings also miss due to range (if they even occur).

Case 2:
Frame 1: Barb is WW'ing and out of range of zealot. Click zeal, 'in range' check fails.
Frame 4: Barb enters zeal range.
Frame 8: WW hit check on zealot, barb still in range, and initial zeal swing finishes. Zeal swing still fails to connect or even perform a hit check due to failed 'in range' check during frame 1. Follow up hits never occur.
So both are possible?

I think a zealot for pubs wouldn't be that bad of an idea... Just wondering how I can go toe to toe with a smiter.

[blobswannabe]

A properly made/played telezealer can eat most caster for lunch. However the real reason why zealers are underused is because of the insane number of smiters and barbs that are in pub games these days.(they can't do **** vs smiters) Also there are few things that a zealer does better than a smiter so most people just make smiters instead.

[Yes Sir I Will]

you could go eDeathZ, HL's/Raven/(sorb ring of your choice), Forti, ias/res all jewel Kira, upped ias/res all jeweled HOZ, Upped Bloodfist or stat/tri res/ias rare-of-your-choice gloves and tri res/fhr/run boot-of-your-choice (or Tearhaunch if you don't have anything in vigor), verdungo/tgods/snowclash (situational), with ptorch/anni/fine of vita sc's and toss in some vita/res-of-your-choice charms for stack.
hotkey A-Charge S-Vigor Z-Zeal X-Fanat, hold shift and vigorcharge/shiftzeal suprise the hell outta some casters. You may want CoA 30 ias+exile for minion/win drids (more than likeli they'll think "oh easy" and teleport onto a shiftzeal.. same for hdins, though you might have to D-Limb for exta AR vs some.
Try to predict teleports and desynch paths and vigorcharge to the appropriate spot and lay down the shiftzeal. You can also use this versus WW (baba/sin) if you can judge where the WW will end and vigcharge to just off from that position to zeal without worrying about being hit too much or at all.
Try it out some time, you might be suprised.

[Eilo Rytyj]

You wont catch casters by tele-ing as a Zealot. I chase down and pin sorcs and windys all the time with vigor-charging with my PvM zealot. If a windy stops to spam 'nados at you, he's usually easy Zeal fodder unless he's using SS w/ max block.

I find using Salvation vs sorcs works (especially Infinity-using or Cold sorcs), mainly because I don't have stacked resists with him, just enough for max in PvM.

I don't get the bit about eDeathZ. It's too slow, especially when you're not using Fanaticism (Resist Fire/Light/Cold, Salvation in certain situations) Why not just Grief? My Zealot's Grief+Highlords+Guill'sFace+Gores gets 75%+ DS, so with a decent Grief you're looking at 12k+ damage on critical.

You wont beat a Smiter with a Zealot. Plain and simple. It's very hard to do so, at least.

[Yes Sir I Will]

You wont catch casters by tele-ing as a Zealot. I chase down and pin sorcs and windys all the time with vigor-charging with my PvM zealot. If a windy stops to spam 'nados at you, he's usually easy Zeal fodder unless he's using SS w/ max block.

I find using Salvation vs sorcs works (especially Infinity-using or Cold sorcs), mainly because I don't have stacked resists with him, just enough for max in PvM.

I don't get the bit about eDeathZ. It's too slow, especially when you're not using Fanaticism (Resist Fire/Light/Cold, Salvation in certain situations) Why not just Grief? My Zealot's Grief+Highlords+Guill'sFace+Gores gets 75%+ DS, so with a decent Grief you're looking at 12k+ damage on critical.

You wont beat a Smiter with a Zealot. Plain and simple. It's very hard to do so, at least.

~i don't like Grief, and with the stuff I listed you hit 4fpa zeal using fanat with far and away enough stack assuming you'd gotten vita/10-11 single res scs like I mentioned (those would be COLD resist, and maybe some Lit ones if vs foh). scoti srsly haet greef.
Whats that bit about teleporting? I told dude to vigorcharge and predict tele paths, not go teleport at people o_O

[Uchiha Sasuke]

~i don't like Grief, and with the stuff I listed you hit 4fpa zeal using fanat with far and away enough stack assuming you'd gotten vita/10-11 single res scs like I mentioned (those would be COLD resist, and maybe some Lit ones if vs foh). scoti srsly haet greef.
Whats that bit about teleporting? I told dude to vigorcharge and predict tele paths, not go teleport at people o_O

*nods head in agreement*

Kay kay! Tankx!! (Thanks)

[xpumafangx]

I didnt read it all. But I do see how a zealot could do well in pubbys. But I feel that they should use a widowmaker. The few times I have dueled in pubbys with my zealot. I found that when I was using charge + guilded arrow.

The problem I find is that my hitpoints where low for dueling. And also zealots and werewolfs even tho fury and zeal are a 5 muti targeted attack. They dont work the same way.

[Yes Sir I Will]

using GA as the primary attack it ceases to be a Zealot and turns into a Ranger.
Explain how Zeal and Fury differ for me, I want to know what you think.

[xpumafangx]

ok ill break a few unspoken rules. I will auto add in fant, sacifice, and also werewolf. Or zeal and fury is next to uncompable.
Because alone fury will do more damage and ar.

1. fury is invisable when you hold shift and fury with out any one there for your target. As in yes no one else can see you attacking with fury other then you. So yes you can stand still fury away and if some dumb kid walks too close yes they will feel the full effect and wonder if you have auto aim.
2. fury is slower, ya they can bolth do 4fps attacks but still its alot harder to get a 4fps fury then you can get a 4fps zeal easly.
3. Fury actly does less damage then zeal at the same lvls.
4. Fury actly gives you more ar then zeal.
5. Fury is interruptable.

I can even go into the differences of a zealot vers a werewolf if you want to. Even talk about how much more comp-la-cated werewolf vs werewolf is then a zealot vs zealot duel is.

Number 5 alone makes everything alot different. I mean me and inkanddagger have debated over the faster block rate and faster hit recovery amounts on whats useful and whats not. Even getting so deap into the subject on what amount works best for what amount of attack speed you have. And or what kind of weapon your using 1/2-handers. If this paragrah is confusing for you right now. Think about how I felt.

Heres one that some zealot players should remaber. Know how you can get the first hit with a range 3 weapon? If the person your fighting has a range of 2?
Ok with a werewolf you actly get the first hit by your hit recovery amount. Or if your the aggreasser or defender. Yes a range 1 fanged knife actly all ways has the same range as the person your fighting, I belive thats the same story with zealots. As in range one weapons can hit at the same range as any other weapon. And yes I all ways get the first hit with a greif phase blade over someone using a ebotd zerk. If I have a faster hit recovery amount break point. And am being the aggreasive one in the fight. How far the amount of range you can neglect tho is a totaly different story all together.

So ya I can easly say that fury is vastly different from zeal. Some of the info I have givin out in this post most other werewolf players dont all ready know about. Just me, and kiba.

[xpumafangx]

using GA as the primary attack it ceases to be a Zealot and turns into a Ranger.
Explain how Zeal and Fury differ for me, I want to know what you think.

Ya if I was using GA as my primary attack. But I wasnt. I was using GA as a way to get open wounds to effect some one from a far away range, and to have a distance attack to weaken poeples hit points. So that way when they do get to me. I could switch to zeal. I mean its way to long to kill some of the builds off as it is with widowmaker. Its freaken next to the point of uselessness.


Now to top it all off. Werewolves are a build for a different type of player then most players on bnet. You cant be dense, you need to be thick skinned, You have to look deeply into alot of different things, you all ways have too think out side of the box in order to win, and I shouldnt all ready have to mention rich or know some one willing to give you the right items cough charms. I mean I have seen a werewolf kill a windy that was dumb enough to try to target the werewolf's poisoncreeper. The wolfs player finely got the ideal to let the poisoncreeper to fight the duel for him. Because the windy was to fursterrated with the fact that he couldnt kill the poisoncreeper. It was a long and funny duel to say the least.